Thread 511066132

I ask this from a place of total intellectual honesty. I want to believe in God. But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.

>>511066132 (OP)
Religion is a tool of social control invented by men to keep order and it works so well in part because of appeals to existential torment as a purported consequence for challenging the status quo. You'll notice even "revolutionary" religions like Christianity still urge their followers to "render unto Caesar."

If you are really interested in God, seek out occultism. Religion is just to keep the NPCs from eating each other (and especially the rich).

>>511066132 (OP)
The state.

>>511066132 (OP)
>what kind of God needs to rule through fear?
That, would be Tyr.

>>511066132 (OP)
God created free human agents. He did not create robots. The consequence of free agency is that the option to choose moral evil will always be present, and for the concepts of evil and good to even exist, there must be freedom of choice, because evil is the absence of good.

With that being said, God doesn't "send" anyone to Hell. Damnation occurs when a subject persists in evil until the day of his death and voluntarily choose to separate themselves from God. It's a choice the person makes, not cosmic retribution. Why would a man who lived an immoral life, filled with evil and vice, want to go to Heaven anyways? All of those things he claimed to enjoy will be absent there.

We can freely choose to love God and join him eternally, or to hate him and separate ourselves eternally from him. It's not about "fear", it's the natural consequence of free will.

>>511066132 (OP)
>What kind of God needs to rule through fear?
A jewish one.
>I want to believe in God.
Don't look for God in a godless people.
>eternal torment
Tartarus is reserved for the worst of the worst, just as Elysium is reserved for the best of the best. Some people deserve eternal torment.

>>511066132 (OP)

Polytheism is better.

>multiple deities
>honoring the forces of nature and civilization
>don't have to anthropomize them if you don't want to
>jews hate it when you don't worship them their way but your own way
>could potentially split from paganism since they can barely stand the atheists there anyway
>make monotheists seethe because their books mean nothing to you

It's a long road to making something worthwhile, but you don't lose anything trying it out, anon. I'm trying to make a codified version for mutts that dissuades human garbage from joining, as an example.

>>511066132 (OP)
God is fully innocent and fully holy yet he loved you so much that He suffered a torturous death on the cross as payment for sins so that your eternal soul wouldn't have to go into hell, how does that sit right with you then? That's not ruling through fear, that's ruling through love.

Jesus Christ is God who died, was buried and resurrected to save you from eternal hell. His blood atonement forgives all your sins permanently, and its the only way to be righteous to God. Once you trust in ONLY this for salvation, NOT your own works, you're saved in Him forever!

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VRT2FFXntc

>>511066336
"And they said unto Him, “Caesar’s.” Then said He unto them, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

>>511067373
>freely choose
>in a system we didn't choose
>that yahweh (allegedly) chose to create
>knowing ahead of time what we would choose
>but he doesn't "send" anyone to hell
christkeks are morons

>>511066132 (OP)
>Why isnt God doing it my way?

>>511068683
The point is the exact same, "I know I've been telling you all that this life and world doesn't matter compared to the next but still obey the government lol" - just pure NPC programming.

God doesnt rule through fear. God doesn't seem to mind just watching people fuck their own shit up. We could have asteroid mining and ai generated kids cartoons teaching them 3 languages on generational ships to alpha centauri but gang warfare is more important.

>>511068742
I understand you are not capable of intelligent discussion at the moment and have many inner issues that you need to work on. However, that argument is very old and deficient to say the least.

If a teacher knows that a student won't study for a test, does the teacher's knowledge cause the student to fail? No, the student fails the test because he is the one who essentially chooses not to study. Knowledge isn't the same as causing.

Life is a gift, with many good and beautiful things. You don't ask for a gift, you receive it freely. You are never promised a life without suffering by God. Instead, God encourages us to offer up our suffering to Him and use it to sanctify ourselves.

And yes, God is all-knowing, otherwise he wouldn't be God. If he created free creatures, then by default he must know what they will choose, but that doesn't mean he's causing them to choose that, because each and every one of us has full agency over our own choices (besides certain specific contexts where guilt may be dimished).

>>511068761
He isn't just "not doing it my way" it seems like he is actively beating the shit out of me at times. I'm not Job, but fuck me, I see thousands of people every day who have it better than me.

>>511068761
Why can't your divine perfect transcendent holy god act any better than a cosmic Kim Jong Un?

Was he written during the bronze age or something?

>>511069872
>ad homs
oh no so anyway
>If a teacher knows that a student won't study for a test, does the teacher's knowledge cause the student to fail? No, the student fails the test because he is the one who essentially chooses not to study. Knowledge isn't the same as causing.
Yes, if the teacher created the test and the student, knowing that the student could not pass the test, the teacher caused the student to fail.
>If he created free creatures, then by default he must know what they will choose, but that doesn't mean he's causing them to choose that
Wrong. That's exactly what it means. There is no free will in a deterministic model.
>You don't ask for a gift
Your childhood birthdays must have been very strange.

>>511070156
Every single fucking thing that can go wrong, does go wrong. To be fair I have prayed many times for supremely bad things not to happen, and they haven't happened....YET! So I guess yeah thanks, God.

>>511066132 (OP)
Can't you keep this shit in /bant? Its going to get jannied there anyway.

>>511069872
Free will is made up evangelical cope nonsense

The bible outright denies it

You are not saved by your work but by grace

>>511066132 (OP)
Hell is a pagan concept.
Essentially, Judaism and Christianity doesn't have a concept of duality.
This dualistic idea was introduced into Catholicism from the Zoroastrian religion... And there is a heaven so... there must logically also be a hell.

>>511066132 (OP)
>Choose evil
>is punished
>Oh no God is not fair

>>511066132 (OP)
If you fear that God can enforce His will then you will respect Him and that is the first step in wisdom (whether you like it or you don't like it, learn to love it.)

>>511066132 (OP)
>>511068742
>>511070377
"The Chosen People"
it's really time to get over it guys

>>511071059
>battered wife noises

>>511070242
So if the teacher is the mother of the student, she raised him a certain way, she knows his character and flaws, and she also teaches him at school. Did she cause him to fail the test?
She may have influenced his own choice, but in the end, the student had full agency to withdraw to a silent library with his books and prepare for the test. He simply chose not to, unless you subscribe to a sort of victim mentality.

>There is no free will in a deterministic model.
So your argument is that I can't possibly freely choose to type this post because God knew beforehand that I would type it?
Does God's knowledge somehow annul the function of my prefrontal and primary motor cortex?

>>511066132 (OP)
The made up kind designed to keep the Slaves in line.

>>511071666
>human mothers are omniscient
...
>So your argument is that I can't possibly freely choose to type this post because God knew beforehand that I would type it?
In a deterministic model, the allegedly omniscient and omnipotent creator created you like a wind up toy.
But since I'm not a schizo jew (or by extension, a schizo christian), I don't believe in the schizo claims of the torah, so try not to confuse my argument with my personal beliefs.

>>511072055
Do you believe that it is possible for an omnipotent creator to create autonomous human agents?

>>511066132 (OP)
That's Yahweh, the evil god of the Jews.

Jesus is the son of Zeus (Dyeus Pater) the Aryan Sky God, that's why he sounds so different to Yahweh

>>511072326
It's not unless you just throw out all logic in which case there is no point to discussing it anyway

>>511072326
Of course not, but that's because omnipotence is a nonsense abstraction that simply stems from yids kvetching "my tribal god is stronger than your tribal god".
>inb4 he can but he can still lift it
Utter philosobabble for midwits who think this is deep shit.

>>511070695
Hell as eternal torment is a pagan idea because it is rooted in the Greek idea that all souls are immortal, therefore if cut off from God, continue to "live".
But another take on it is that the soul is mortal and is sustained by God, which makes Hell a consuming fire and place of destruction of the soul. Therefore if you separate from God your soul ceases to be. It is still an eternal punishment because it is a punishment with eternal consequences. being sentenced to total nonexistence, a second death, would be a horrifying fate, waiting to be cast into a lake of fire to be permanently deleted. Atheists can pretend they are OK with nonexistence but I know when faced with it, it would be the most dreadful punishment ever, and even being tormented in fire for eternity will sound better because there would still be a degree of hope remaining that one day, God would release you.

>>511067512
Wrong. Obviously you never even read the "Old Testament" in any of its inadequate tranlations. Hell isn't mentioned as far as I remember. It's about God's love for the Jewish people and their accomplishments and fuckups.

>>511072443
>Jesus is the son of Zeus
Zeus has a circumcised son preaching the torah in synagogues? No wonder he hasn't mentioned him.

>>511072678
Did you (you) the wrong post by any chance?

>>511070377
And God tells us who he wants to forgive and who he wants to harden. When we believe in the finished work of The Lord Jesus Christ to make atonement for our sins, he forgives us.

When we constantly make evil choices out of our free will, he hardens us to affirm those choices, like what happened with pharaoh. That doesnt prove we don't have free will

The bible gives you precise instructions for how to build an animal-sacrifice tent. It also describes a flat earth standing on pillars. Talking animals, unicorns and dragons, are in the bible. Killing an entire village and taking the underage girls as sex slaves, is in the bible

>>511066132 (OP)
Fear is the best opium for the useful idiot masses.
Smart people have known for ages that it isn't real and havd taken advantage of them.

>>511066132 (OP)
You only feel fear if what you are doing is wrong.

>>511066132 (OP)
They say love is blind and I've never known God to turn a blind eye

>>511072676
God either exists or not. If God exists, he is not bound by the laws of matter, time or space, as they are a creation of his. If God doesn't exist, you are making an assumption that the matter, space and time came from nothing, which is not only a logical absurdity, but also contradicts many scientific principles, like the law of conservation of matter, the first law of thermodynamics, the flasehood of spontaneous generation, etc...

If God is not bound by the laws of nature, because he created them, then he is omnipotent.

Also, the stupid rock example is a logical contradiction, but you already know that.

>>511066132 (OP)
>implying you dont send yourself to hell through your own actions
>implying their isn't an inherent soul in living creatures
>implying god is evil instead of just indifferent
>implying your life is worth something
>implying our petty squabbles on this 1 planet within infinite solar systems is important
>implying we arent just ants on a log

>>511066132 (OP)
>What kind of God needs to rule through fear?
The jewish one. Our own Gods like Odin, Perun, the Wonderstag and the Turul want us to be strong and fearless.

>>511067512
>Tartarus is reserved for the worst of the worst
and pictures of it show scary impressive Gothic buildings like the old buildings the Russians say were in the old civilization of Tartaria. Identical names.

Perhaps this planet is transitioning from a Tartarus to something new. And our current light construction is also transitional.

>>511073244
Everyone has done something wrong and everyone should fear God. Fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom. Death is the wages of sin, blood is owed due to your sin. Jesus offered to make that payment of blood on your behalf so you can avoid the death penalty. If you trust in Jesus and believe He paid your debt on the cross you will be saved. it is a free gift. But, in order to accept that gift you have to admit that you need it in the first place, and that is the hardest step for unbelievers to make.

>>511068202
Jews ignore you as long as you leave them alone. But you might get attention from Christians and Muslims.

>>511066132 (OP)
Because you have free will, you get to choose. If what you choose to do with your free will is righteous, you can join him. If what you choose to do is evil, you can't. Isn't that a far better arrangement than being an autonomaton without free will?
>inb4 (((luciferian))) shills come and deny free will

>>511066132 (OP)
EVERY God rules through fear because this happens to be the weakest point in humans.

>>511066132 (OP)
It’s because it isn’t true. It a coercive element. Christ tells us narrow is the way to redemption from sin. Many won’t make it. That doesn’t mean fire and brimstone. That means non existence

>>511066132 (OP)
How do you explain
>God ruling for fear
Given your complete disbelief in God?

If he was ruling through fear you may not worship him, but you sure as fuck would believe in him.

Stop being a retarded kike faggot.

>>511073445
>If God exists, he is not bound by the laws of matter, time or space, as they are a creation of his.
So by God you exclusively mean a cosmic primus motor creator. Are you aware that this is but one of the many understandings of what God could be? You've chosen a binary christian-vs-atheist worldview in a world of infinite of opinions. If you are exclusively referring to the jewish god and the jewish claims of his omnipotence, you should use his name: yahweh.
>If God is not bound by the laws of nature, because he created them, then he is omnipotent.
Non sequitur. Omnipotence means "all-powerful", not "powerful enough to create a specific system". Programmers are not bound by the laws that they put into their code, but they are not omnipotent. The majority of your ancestors believed that gods could be bound by laws whilst still being the creative source of existence.
>Also, the stupid rock example is a logical contradiction
All attempts to rationalize omnipotence are logical contradictions.

>>511066132 (OP)
The guilty fear the judge
receive grace and be free from fear

>>511072862
Maybe sometime, but not this time.

>>511074060
>schizoposter
>Tartarus-pilled
pottery

>>511066132 (OP)
I say to you, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Be not deceived by their show of much learning and by their profound loyalty to the forms of religion. Be only concerned with the spirit of living truth and the power of true religion. It is not the fear of a dead religion that will save you but rather your faith in a living experience in the spiritual realities of the kingdom. Do not allow yourselves to become blinded by prejudice and paralyzed by fear. Neither permit reverence for the traditions so to pervert your understanding that your eyes see not and your ears hear not. It is not the purpose of true religion merely to bring peace but rather to insure progress. And there can be no peace in the heart or progress in the mind unless you fall wholeheartedly in love with truth, the ideals of eternal realities. The issues of life and death are being set before you—the sinful pleasures of time against the righteous realities of eternity. Even now you should begin to find deliverance from the bondage of fear and doubt as you enter upon the living of the new life of faith and hope. And when the feelings of service for your fellow men arise within your soul, do not stifle them; when the emotions of love for your neighbor well up within your heart, give expression to such urges of affection in intelligent ministry to the real needs of your fellows.

Why do you want to believe in God? Its the dumbest of all coping mechanisms.

>>511066132 (OP)
Just do what every believer does: reinterpret scripture into something that fits your moral compass. Heck, a lot of the work has been done for you: there's annihilationism, universalism, just to name a couple if you don't want to invent your own doctrine.

>>511074969
You got that backwards, denying God is the dumbest of coping mechanisms. you don't believe everything was created from nothing, you believe everything was created BY nothing. That nothing is the creative force behind all that you see, from the big blue sky to clouds to trees and flows and bees and honey and fruits and humanity and arts. It's an obvious absurdity.

>>511072766
Yes Zeus impregnated a Jewish woman so of course he'd be circumcised.

But the theology Jesus taught was very close to Greek Middle Platonism and very far from Semitic tribalism.

Zeus had lots of kids with various women, Dionysus was born in the Middle East for example.

>>511074452
>The guilty fear the judge
Your mindtricks won't work on me, jedi.

>>511075205
>Everything I know about atheism comes from apologists, and I've never bothered to ask atheists what they actually think.

>>511075333
You are a kid, your dad tells you repeatedly "don't throw that ball around the house"
One day your dad is at work, you are throwing the around and hit the TV and knock it down and the screen cracks
What goes through your heart knowing your dad will be home in 3 hours?
Do you tell your dad up front what you did and apologize, or do you put the TV back, pretend nothing happened, and play dumb when your dad discovers it's broken?

>>511075520
I was an atheist til age 30, and I would feel intense dissociation when thinking about why is there something rather than nothing, or especially, why was I born ME and not someone else, like what mechanism in the universe lead me to dwelling within my own body and not someone/something else's at a different time/place.
There are no viable explanations for either of these questions. These questions aren't why I became Christian, but I know the atheist perspective because I lived it and I know you know that same dissociative feeling I am talking about.

>>511075615
My dad is actually real. Or was, he's dead now.

>>511075802
>I'm just going to project a bunch of shit on you.
Meds.

>>511066132 (OP)
>I ask this from a place of total intellectual honesty. I want to believe in God.
Then you say this...
>But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
You want to BE God.
You want to decide what is right and what is wrong.
That is not your place.
You live in His creation, not Him in yours.
He set the rules.
Your choice is simply whether to acknowledge that fact, or not.

>>511075929
>just gaslight yourself into thinking infinite torture for finite actions is just.

>>511067373
And how do you know all of this larp to be true?

>>511075802
This is not how an atheist thinks at all which leads me to believe you are lying. I noticed there are these christcucks that always have the same fake story "oh yea I was an atheist just like you buddy but then I found The Lord" but your reasoning and understanding of an atheistic worldview is lacking too much.
For example your question about you being born you and not someone else. As if there's something separate from who I am that could just be transported into someone else. I am me, I could never be someone else because that someone wouldn't be me. This is how an atheist like me thinks. I don't think I have some kind of spirit floating around that could've just incarnated in someone else's body and take over his mind. That's a level of magical thinking the atheist doesn't even consider.
You're full of shit dude just be truthful about your beliefs you don't need to larp as an atheist, everyone can see through it.

>>511076609
Why are you YOU and not George Washington? You can't answer that
And not lying I read all of Dawkins books did all the stupid usual atheist faggot shit like support communism, "ironically" hailed Satan, did drugs because it's just chemicals my body my choice, backed faggotry and abortion, listened to Nine Inch Nails endlessly, and felt intense fear when I meditated on topics like death. I would also mock Christians every chance I get, but just kept silent if people were Buddhist, Muslim and especially Jewish. I viewed Christians as the source of all problems in the world, I wished death upon all the morons voting for Trump, I would argue with them and tell them Jesus wouldn't support such an evil man and if they support such a man I'm glad I don't believe in Jesus because i wanted nothing to do with their God, etc.
Such a disgusting, grotesque pit of a lifestyle and I thank the LORD I was bought out of it.

>>511074424
>So by God you exclusively mean a cosmic primus motor creator. Are you aware that this is but one of the many understandings of what God could be? You've chosen a binary christian-vs-atheist worldview in a world of infinite of opinions. If you are exclusively referring to the jewish god and the jewish claims of his omnipotence, you should use his name: yahweh.
Logical philosophical reasoning and science's limitations point towards a Creator.
Historical evidence points to Christianity being true.
The two are mutually inclusive in this case.

>Omnipotence means "all-powerful", not "powerful enough to create a specific system". Programmers are not bound by the laws that they put into their code, but they are not omnipotent. The majority of your ancestors believed that gods could be bound by laws whilst still being the creative source of existence.
Ah, so you are a LARPing pagan.
If a god is limited by laws, as you claim, them he must be limited by laws created by an entity that are superior to that god, which leads to an infinite regression of "lawmakers" that can only be resolved by establishing a supreme Creator, which as a creator of ALL things, can't be limited by anything.

>>511077197
>degenerate leftoid takes the final degen-pill and becomes a christcuck
>projects all his own degeneracy on everyone
Sad. Many such cases.

>>511077197
Loooooooool broooooooo.
>Yeah I totally an atheist bro! I like read the atheist bible and smoked weed bro!
Now you're just trolling.

>>511068683
Ascetic monks seem like the best people suited to run the world, since they can't be compromised with lust and greed like our current crop of leaders. But they don't care about any of that worldly power shit, so we have to suffer under these demons instead. It's a conundrum.

>>511077197
There is no 'raffle' to decide in what body 'you' go, because there is no 'you' without your body. You are your body and your body is you. You come into existence, you develop, you die. That's it. And I will never understand how that idea is somehow scarier than an eternity of anything.
Also, I second that you clearly were never an atheist

>>511066132 (OP)
something i was thinking about is how would parents in heaven feel about their kids burning in hell?
what could god possibly provide to make that thought heavenly?

>>511066132 (OP)
It's not fear. Think of it as a wholesale grocery club (not sure if you bongs have Costco or Sam's). You have to agree to the terms of service and abide by their code of conduct or you don't get to enter.

>>511066132 (OP)
Religions are man made institutions, with man made books. If you want proof of this, just look at the fact that both Judaism and Christianity command infant sexual mutilation ("circumcision"). You can speculate about heaven, hell, an afterlife, etc., but circumcision is a horrible reality both today and in known history. Circumcision is the clearest and most indisputable refutation of all abrahamic religions.

>>511077571
>Logical philosophical reasoning and science's limitations point towards a Creator.
Wrong. You just can't imagine not having the presuppositions which steer you towards belief in a creator.
>Historical evidence points to Christianity being true.
Hilariously wrong, but people who trust jewish claims aren't easily swayed.
>Ah, so you are a LARPing pagan.
Again, you are incapable of separating the argument from the person. I'm guessing you're from a northern province.
>that can only be resolved by establishing a supreme Creator
Again, wrong. You presuppose linear time.

Go back to first principles.

>>511066336
>Religion is a tool of social control invented by men to keep order and it works so well in part because of appeals to existential torment as a purported consequence for challenging the status quo.
And it is necessary, especially when the status quo benefits most of society. Otherwise we fall into marxist communism and everyone dies of AIDS and starvation. So praise the Lord, regardless if He exists or not.

>>511077197
>You can't answer that
It's very simple to answer. Because I am who I am, I could not be anyone else. The combination of genes and atoms that make me what I am are ME. If my parents were doing drugs when they conceived I wouldn't exist, some other person would exist in my place.
You presume the existence of a spirit of yourself that can just possess random bodies instead of seeing the body itself as the You. That's not how an atheist sees the world, we consider that assumption to be magical thinking without any merit.
You bring forth a bunch of unrelated things that have nothing to do with atheism. I never tried to convert my Christian friends or mock them or anything, I don't feel fear of death, I supported Trump back in 16 etc.
The next step after atheism is to worship nature and reality itself. You can remain a Christian if you like but if you want to truly be immune to atheist arguments you need to trust in the leap of faith instead of these rational arguments that don't hold up and are funny to destroy. If you said "I believe because I have faith, simple as" I would have no possible comeback.

>>511066132 (OP)
>What kind of God needs to rule through fear?

You are assuming fear is all He rules people by (love is another method, as in John 3:16) and that He also "needs to" (He's God, He doesn't need anything), while the reality is that fear is a good deterrent against uncomely behaviour harmful to yourself and others. That's the way God chose to fashion the human brain after.

>I ask this from a place of total intellectual honesty. I want to believe in God. But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.

If you were intellectually honest you'd be willing to find out and accept the truth whether you liked it or not.

In any event, a non-believer is not the same as a Christ-rejector, and they'll both have different punishments:

If you never heard about the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be judged by your works, which ain't gonna be fun:

“For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” (Romans 2:11-12)

But if you were confronted with the real Jesus and you die rejecting Him, your judgement's going to be much harsher.

“Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.” (Luke 10:13-14)

Anybody who ever makes it to heaven has and will do so through Jesus, one way or another.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

>>511066132 (OP)
Here's how you get saved:

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Romans 10:9-10)

“¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

>>511066132 (OP)
Demiurge. This realm is a jail. If you hear this message escape post-death.

>>511077691
>Ascetic monks
Except that this is a meme. Gay sex and rape is common for example in Tibetan Buddhist monasteries. We all know the reputation of the Catholic church here. People cooped up in abbeys, isolated and separated from normal human experiences have no reason no business running anything. Many people join such religious orders precisely because they find real life something they can't cope with.

>>511076117
Because Christ rose from the dead.

>>511078308
Waiting for a “Savior” is exactly how the Demiurge wants you to be.
There is no Savior, we are the Saviors of our own souls if you know what’s their end game and why they keep the pain and misery level up high.

>>511078308
>t. some jews

>>511077937
Gotta love how they are incapable of making any actual arguments and only scream "presupposition! Presupposition!" when cornered.

Your worldview is incapble of articulating a robust defense for itself because it is riddle with logical and philosophical contradictions. It's easy to hold a worldview when all the intellectual you have to do is say "presupposition", "foregery", "hallucination" and other buzzwords.

>>511078434
You couldn't prove that demiurge bullshit real if your life depended on it. Cease thy retarded larping and get right with God already.

>>511078605
Riddled*
All the intellectual work*

>>511066132 (OP)
Lets be love
Love and peace please
Love and peace please
Click this link
https://youtu.be/BVH0Y9lJec0

>>511078434
There is stronger proof that Christ rose from the dead than the existence of Alexander and Julius Caesar combined

>>511077951
Read the Socialist Phenomenon. Many past religions, governments, and societies, including attempts at Christian ones, have been communist/socialist. Marxism was just a rebrand for the post-enlightenment period where atheism was in vogue.

>>511066132 (OP)
>him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
They send themselves to hell by virtue of their actions and we are all God by the divinity of being our father God's creation. So everything makes perfect sense.

>>511078877
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.” (2 Thessalonians 3:10-12)

>>511066132 (OP)
>fear
Fear? You think it's a desire for fear?
Nigger he's just having fun.

>>511078770
We have literal autobiographical books Caesar wrote; Jesus isn't mentioned until decades later by others. You don't have to combine him with Alexander for this claim to be ridiculous. I believe Jesus was a real person BTW but what you're saying is just ridiculous.

>>511066132 (OP)
>What kind of God needs to rule through fear?
He doesn't...
Have you not read the scripture?
Do you not understand the tale spun?

>>511079050
Did you mean this as a refutation of what I'm saying? Lenin loved this idea.

>>511078611
I can very well prove that the Demiurge is real to anyone that is willing to take the path out of this illusion, it would require some 7 gramms of shrooms and a careful trip which would dissolve this illusion and see for yourself how we humans (Divine souls) create this realm. Once you make that discovery THEN you will know about the Demiurge who will send his minions to make you come back to this illusion through fear, while you are witnessing the whole thing from a 3rd view perspective. That is if you wanted to SEE by your own eyes (3rd eye).
Now if you want to not take any substance I can logically prove to you that all the world events present past and future revolves around making humans (divine souls) suffer during their lifetime which produces the loosh energy required to run this realm. Demons are run by Angels, and Angels are archons themselves using duality to keep the souled beings trapped on this realm.
There is no other explanation to why this world is so evil than the existence of the Demiurge as controller of this fake reality, he is not God, he larps as one, he created this realm for that purpose. We are on the other hand made with God’s light, the true God, Source. We are however trapped here in a physical body, but all this illusion dissolves when we die, sadly most are brainwashed and realize the truth way too late when they get memory wiped and sent back here for another lifetime of loosh extractions.

>>511079016
>They send themselves to hell by virtue of their actions and we are all God by the divinity of being our father God's creation. So everything makes perfect sense.
This is a retarded 21st century interpretation. For 99% of Christianity's history people didn't come up with feel good justifications about hell. Hell is a punishment that God imposes on people.

>>511079386
Socialists are parasites and God doesn't like parasites.

>>511078770
Im not denying Christ’s resurrection, that happened. Im denying the fact that you have to wait for a Savior. You are the Savior of your soul, nobody else. There is also God within you and me and anyone with a soul, God is within us and not outside of us (in Jesus or whatever lie).

>>511079522
How can you not deny His resurrection but deny His teachings?

>>511066132 (OP)
He doesn't send nonbelievers to Hell. Hell is what you create on earth through sinning. Heaven is what you create on earth by following gods commandments.

Everything in the universe is designed with a specific purpose, but God gave humans free will for some reason. That means that even though we are designed to live in perfect paradise with God, we are free to act otherwise and turn his garden into Hell.

The afterlife for humans is only ever figuratively described as a place where you burn. In reality, you will just be separated forever from god's goodness and will be completely given to your most sinful instincts, and you'll be trapped there forever with a bajillion other people suffering the same fate. You guys will turn that afterlife into Hell, god won't have to do anything to bring it about.

>>511079519
Then why did he create them?

>>511079599
Checked. His teachings have been corrupted through Paul the Jew. Jesus thought about universal Love, Love as energy, but that is forgotten by Christians.

>>511079396
So I cannot get the memo unless I mess up my brains with drugs. Makes perfect sense.

>>511079459
>feel good justifications about hell
Huh? I what now? I believe you take your memories and experiences with your consciousness when your body dies, so heaven or hell is what you make of it. Great system, you can't fake it or trick it or anything, only by following Christ teachings and worshiping our father God is how you get to heaven.

>>511068742
I don't know why but Christians seemingly just cannot follow this line of thinking. God is all powerful, but also he could only have ever made this specific universe with its specific rules.

God made us in his image, he knew he fucked up from the start.

>>511079206

We have multiple eye witnesses accounts of His resurrection and His teachings, letters and documents of His crucifixion. More people wrote about Jesus around His time than Julius.


Furthermore, there are records of hundreds of people that witnessed His life that chose death over denying His existence. How can 100s of people die for a lie?

>>511079645
>Well that part's just figurative. Resurrection? That literally happened. How do I know which is which? Magic!

>>511079676
Good enough for Peter, good enough for me.

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16)

>>511078770
Jesus never existed. Read Nailed by David Fitzgerald. We are the European people that were the most destroyed and conquered by Christianity.

>>511078237
The faggot rape shit is a meme, and you're a jew and/or pushing jew memes. Asceticism is a noble ideal because it's hard. Jews reject it because they are not a noble or hard people.

>>511079676
But if you believe Him to be resurrected, you would consider the Gospel accounts to be true... no?

>>511079697
He literally gave you another explanation that doesn't require drugs; you're being intellectually dishonest by ignoring it.

>>511079396
What books on Gnosticism do you recommend?

>>511079645
>you'll be trapped there forever with a bajillion other people suffering the same fate
Oh thanks for clearing that up, "God" only creates a world where people are trapped and suffering for eternity, just not through literal fire.

>>511078605
I have no idea why you got triggered by the use of the word presupposition. It has an actual meaning, and if you're not familiar with it, I suspect that you can access a dictionary fairly easily.
>Your worldview
We have not even remotely talked about my worldview, but it is pretty funny that you think so. We have talked about how the jewish claims of yahweh's omnipotence and omniscience necessitating determinism (which is also explicit in the bible), which necessarily invalidates the notion of free will.
...You keep thinking that this is somehow my personal belief kek

>>511066132 (OP)
It is what it is
-Christian

But yeah, reread job and why you aren't meant to understand everything. Then reread Paul's letters, the gospels, proverbs and psalms are pretty tight too. Big fan of Ephesians.

>>511066132 (OP)
>But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
He doesn't send bad people to eternal torment. He sends them to the place where they get exactly what they deserve. Imagine this world, but without death. Sounds amazing right? That is until you get carved for food because someone wanted to try cannibalism. What about getting raped for months on end in a cock conga line, collecting every parasite and STD in existence and then having to live with the rot and boils forever? Any form of suffering you can think of can and does happen in Hell, because the ultimate consequence of death passed. And the only people who partake in it are the people who deserve it. Everyone else suffers without release, but only because nothing that happens to them really matters in the end. All of it self-inflicted, done to escape God.

>>511079833
>How can 100s of people die for a lie?
You could make exactly the same argument for Muslim martyrs. Why reject it there? You might as well argue that the Mayan pantheon is correct. How could ten million Mayans be wrong??

What kind of God acts to protect his reputation only?

>>511079396
X tier tard babble
I swear to fucking God if you say anything about Zoroastrianism

>>511066132 (OP)
New Thought addresses this completely with purely rational and understandable arguments that aren't mental gynmastics. However as a follower of New Thought, especially William Walker Atkinson, even though they all write commentaries on the Bible and some of them talk extensively about Jesus I don't really identify as a Christian I identify as a truthseeker, a man of science and rationality and mind, a perreniallist, a universalist, etc.

The shit doctrines that are popular in all the churches that aren't Christian Science churches make me cringe extremely hard. Also baptism, the eucharist, messiahs, etc. it's all cringe and nothing to do with reality.

The real parts of the Bible are the parts the Neville Goddard and William Walker Atkinson and so on focus on. The power of the mind, the cosmic consciousness aka the all, etc.

I wish to not be associated with semitic fairy tales about circumcision and a god who gets defeated by chariots.

>>511066132 (OP)
>But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
He doesn't. They go of their own accord, their own making. God made the way, which is Jesus Christ, for you to escape the consequences of your own making. Hell is separation from God, which in existence this feedback is stretched out like an elastic band, so you don't notice the effects so immediately, but after death it is very immediate, and you land in hell by separating yourself from God, for God cannot coexist with sin, as his nature is sinless. That's why. It's not God who sends you, but you who goes there by your own free will. Everybody gets ample opportunity to discover the truth of life. If you go to hell, you've failed countless times, not just once. That's how merciful God is.

>>511079862
Paul's entire ministry was about people resurrecting. Humans are 3D reproductions of God, so we are trinities in our own way (body, mind, and soul) but since our individual parts lack the kind of perfection God has, we only constitute a single person and cannot exist separately of all 3 parts. If there was no bodily resurrection, we would simply cease to exist forever after death.

>>511079892
Cope. The Dalai Llama tried to get a boy to "suck his tongue" in public, at a televised event.

>>511079804
>I don't know why
The abstraction of omnipotence makes midwits into complete retards. It's like liberals with their equality and human rights. It sounds smart, but it only exists in the abstract realm of ideas. It's for pseuds, essentially.

>>511079933
He didn't. There's no logical proof for any of what he said (or at least he's yet to provide it). Without drugs, I must take everything he says at face value.

>>511079833
>t. some jews
Just wait till you hear about the holocaust.

>>511066132 (OP)
It is highly unlikely that you would go to hell as long as you still lived a righteous life. That idea used to be a thing but it was pushed off to the side for obvious reasons.

>>511066132 (OP)
A jewish one.
>TELL ME HOW MUCH YOU LOVE ME OR I WILL CAST YOU INTO PALHELLSTINE YOU ANTISEMITE

>>511079948
I think keeping this conversation up is futile.
>God is the creator of all things visible (matter) and invisible (laws of nature).
>Since God created everything, He can:t be limited by his own creation.
>Therefore, God is omnipotent.

If you concede validity to certain other non-Christian frameworks of theism, then this premise is still compatible with them. It's really very simple.

>>511080299
And taking what you say at face value, you expect people to believe in a god who commands his worshipers to sexually mutilate their own children.

>>511080074
>How could ten million Mayans be wrong??
I'd trust a single Mayan over a hundred jews, just sayin'.

>>511080361
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

>>511080299
Also, even with drugs, at least he presents a testable hypothesis.

>>511074156
>Jews ignore you as long as you leave them alone.
Explain Iceland's first rabbi immediately saying Iceland needs more immigration.

>>511079933
League of Legends used to do this thing where if you left a lot of games, you would get flagged and the matchmaking would prioritize matching you with other people who frequently left games. This way, the people who didn't leave games would have their games improved by the absence of leavers and the people who left games would get to feel what it's liked to have their games ruined.

At any point the leavers could just stop leaving games and then there would be no difference in the play experience of either group, but the leavers leave games because that's what they do. The people who end up in "Hell" are there because they will create hell anywhere they go, and cannot exist in paradise.

>>511080074
This argument is extremely unintelligent.

Dying for something you know to be false (like seeing Christ risen from the dead) =/= Dying for something you believe to be true.

All religions with hierarchy or central command systems are purely man made bullshit.
They include fear narratives just as a way for humans in those systems to gain power and control.
The basic idea of a god as some kind of a human image is so limited and retarded it's not even funny.

God is the force that arranges atoms and guides things like evolution etc... You can't see god, but god is everything. There you go, you're part of god just like the grass outside and just as divine as Jesus, that's if he even existed.
However god isn't someone who tells you to give 10% of your money to church to show your virtue and if you don't, you're going to hell.
That's bullshit and a blatant system for resource collecting by people part of that system.

>>511066132 (OP)
>rule through fear
How much "fear" do you think God is utilizing?
God is largely hands-off and isn't doing anything to strike fear in people.

You should take a step back and visualize what it would be like to have a God that truly rules through fear

>>511080522
So your spiritual beliefs are based on League of Legends? If LoL changed this policy, would it you change your spiritual beliefs? No? Then why cite something that has no weight for you?

>>511080419
That's not what my God commands, and I don't expect you to take it at face value, but rather as a Berean:

“¶ And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:10-11)

“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” (Proverbs 14:15)

>>511067373
Agency is limited some people having a lot of agency but still many limitations and some having none like a quadriplegic. Montalk writes that freewill is only an attribute of the all aka god and is not an attribute of individuated spirits. Also Atkinson and others write about Heaven and Hell as states of mind not places, and the Bible certainly supports that narrative since those who are dead still interact with the living as ghosts, and those in torment are aware of those who are doing great. Also the idea your "fate" is sealed on death is retarded and immoral, the reality is that when you die you continue on making mistakes and learning just like you did while in the body, and your level of development/awareness brings certain kinds of trials, pains, and joys to you. The doctrine of purgatory is not quite right in the sense that it's supposedly imposed externally but it's an absolutely true doctrine in the sense that those who have not become perfect in the virtues will continue to suffer as a direct consequence of their sins. Oh and btw, in New Thought everything that is a sin, is a sin because it hurts YOU. No need for crazy mental gymnastics about it, a vice and a sin are the same, and the righteousness of an action is known by it's fruits. Engaging in certain thought-patterns, emotions, etc. hurts the person doing it just as much as it may hurt others.Hurting others is wrong because it makes you a pariah and creates all kinds of issues for you and stifles your growth. Also because when you do grow as a person you feel the pain of others. It doesn't have to be when you die, even now as you live, you can start to feel how your every action has hurt others and to feel their pain. In order to grow in the spirit you must feel fully the weight of your actions on others, and consequently, you will have to become a benevolent being in order to achieve the most beautiful and psychic things the spirit can do.

>>511070288
Forget the God and prayer stuff, it doesn't work. See Gaza, etc. As I understand it you have to believe in Christ and appreciate his sacrifice and put up with the shit of the world and people, like he did, but it ain't easy, especially if you get intrusive thoughts.

>>511080414
>is
>can't
>therefore
If those presuppositions are true, then yes, obviously. And in that case, when combined with omniscience, the creator has created a deterministic world, which is therefore without free will. That's been my point from the start.
>If you concede validity to certain other non-Christian frameworks of theism, then this premise is still compatible with them.
See? You can't even imagine non-linear theism even when confronted with it. No wonder you're so offended by the concept of first principles.
>It's really very simple.
It's really even simpler than you think.

>>511066132 (OP)
An Anunnaki.

>>511066132 (OP)
Why are you looking at God through a lens besmirched by hundreds of years of attempted God destruction? Why don't you use YOUR eyes. And see for yourself.

>>511080570
It's a perfectly intelligent argument. If an idea should be given credit because people are willing to die for it, then you have to apply that logic universally. Lots of people committed seppuku because they believed in the ideals of Bushido. Is Bushido the truth?

>>511080462
Drugs don't allow you to escape reality, drugs distort your perception of reality.

>>511080287
I just looked this up. Holy shit! Why wasn't this world news? He should be locked up.

How can you just abuse a child like that? Sick!

>>511079519
There are more species of parasites than there are of herbivores and carnivores combined

>>511080717
>That's not what my God commands

Genesis 17:
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between Me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every manchild in your generations, he that is born in the house or bought with money from any stranger who is not of thy seed.

Cope

>>511080871
>Drugs don't allow you to escape reality, drugs distort your perception of reality.
Prove this claim

>>511066132 (OP)
not my God...He dont ask you to worship Him or pray to Him. You do it because you Love Him.

>>511066132 (OP)
What kind of God would rule anything at all? why even care? when it could be literally just create new things and do anything it want... it's a existence beyond time and space that i cannot imagine. Could such being have wishes, ambitions or plans? Logically no, it shouldn't in a way we understand.
Imagine one day grab the fabric of reality fold it and go somewhere, but we cannot understand it we don't where or what is the place from God comes from, our machinations are meaningless, also such being it's above our morals and rules cruelty could be anything to it like crushing ants.
My advice don't try to answer that, because it has no answer just learn from the things you an actually see.

>>511080952
Wait until you find about circumcision. At least sucking some dudes tongue once wouldn't leave permanent physical damage (still completely wrong and immoral of course).

yahweh is a desert demon who demands sacrifice of infant foreskins

>>511080709
I was doing my best to put a complicated concept into terms you could understand, but it seems like you are determined to be confused.

YHWH is a HUGE Being who's shear size incurs fear in little humans. He can hold you in His Hands.

>>511080996
Circumcision is not sexual mutilation. You can still enjoy sex and reproduce afterwards.

>>511080996
I'm not Christian but in the New Testament I believe it's stated circumcision is not required anymore and this was reaffirmed at some Jewish convention of some sort. Also circumcision back then was just a tiny incision not the mutilation it is today.

Modern Christians still engage in the practice because Jews took over the medical industry and male genital mutilation reduces the pleasure of male masturbation (Jews dislike this) so they push it on everyone as "hygienic"

>>511066132 (OP)
God doesn't. You're already going. God judges intent.
The question isn't why would God send people to Hell
The question is why would you reject God freeing you from Hell?

>>511081294
>The question is why would you reject God freeing you from Hell?
This

>>511081189
No, it's just that you aren't providing any sound arguments. I understand that your League of Legends analogy was just an analogy. But that's just the issue; analogies aren't valid arguments. Nothing can be proven by analogy.

>>511081033
Can you prove that drugs alter anything but chemichal receptors and electricity in the brain?

>>511081120
Why do Christians in America get circumcised? Christians are already circumcised in spirit. God hates it when you insist on old testament stuff, because it means you missed the mark of his son Jesus, whom he sent.

>>511081344
Drugs allow demonic activity to take over and control you while you are drunk or high.

>>511066132 (OP)
A man made one. There may be a "creator", but nobody knows anything about them.

>>511080190
This is like saying I have a cat inside a room with 2 doors. Outside door 1 is a delicious fish and hell while outside door 2 is heaven. Then say I am mercyful because I gave the cat a chance to pick the right door. What kind of depraved experiment is that? If your god is real, fuck him.

>>511081404
Cultural preference... Some in America are against it.

>>511081096
God created us to come to Him freely. This is more precious to Him than anything. Even at the 11th hour, you will be welcomed. He only wants you to turn away from the evil in the world, and the evil that we have brought into our hearts, so that good can prosper, and we can reimburse with Him in the spirit. I say this knowing full well the audience here.

>>511081469
>Outside door 1 is a delicious fish

Um we're not cats.

>>511081219
So anything that still allows for sex and reproduction is not mutilation? What if you have your eyes gouged out or your arm cut off? Is that a mutilation? Amputating half the nerves of a penis is mutilation. And of course this is done with no anesthetic so that the infant experiences excruciating pain. You're circumcised and you're coping.

BTW, rabbis have known for a long, long time that part of the purpose of circumcision is to damage the ability to enjoy sex:
https://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/maimonides/

>>511081469
Your analogy falls short, because you skipped this part of what I wrote:
> Everybody gets ample opportunity to discover the truth of life.
This is by design. God designs it that way. Everybody, miraculously, gets all the experience and opportunity they need to discover the truth of life, if only they are willing.
It is your will that is in the way. You willed it going to hell. You chose it, by being ignorant as a way of life, which is a choice.

>>511081344
Can you prove that a brain is anything but that?

>>511081404
I don't think it's got anything to do with some retarded misunderstanding of the law. I think this is mostly done by the parents for the health benefits, even if there's likely some jew behind the whole thing taking foreskins as trophies.

>>511074490
I must be close to the target. My comment, right or wrong, is not stupid.

>>511080818
>It's really even simpler than you think.
Elaborate please. Are we really just automatons coping in this uncaring world? In other words... are you proposing nihilism?

>>511081700
>for the health benefits
There are none. Opposite, it's an injury.
When you are young and you have phimosis, you can simply stretch your foreskin over time and use some warm water or even massage it with oil if very severe, and it will be perfectly functional thereafter.

>>511081404
A combination of ignorance and psychological damage. Most parents (fathers at least) who circumcise their infants are circumcised themselves. They either have to come to terms with what happened to them (and face what that means about their own parents, religious beliefs, etc.) or cuck out and do the same thing to their child.

Somewhere there's a famous quote from a Jewish doctor who says he "got his son circumcised because his ancestors were looking over his shoulder". In other words, his decision was based on his own internal physchologicl issues, not what would be in the interest of his son (which he does not mention). Some anon might have a pic with the quote.

You have an infinite being with unfathomable compassion, mercy, and goodness. He also has unfathomable anger and perfect justice. Imagine what He feels when you hurt someone? You can't imagine the anger He feels. At a certain point, we can't always fall back on ignorance because God gave us our conscience and we chose to ignore it. However, like you, He feels bad for those who are damned and extended down the word of God to take on our sins and give us a path for us. He rescued us and all you have to do is make a binary decision

>>511081699
What does that even mean?

>>511081659
Interestingly, I read somewhere that in the bronze age, circumcision was of less skin that is taken off nowadays.

>>511080287
Oh the leader is a pedophile? Well, you just made my original point. Same goes for any monk that buys lunch. Same goes for those higher ups at the Vatican that covered it up. Now we can talk about the 99% of them that aren't like that and how we can get them into leadership positions.

>>511081950
Did God know what you were going to do when he created you?

>>511081273
>but in the New Testament I believe it's stated circumcision is not required anymore
Yes this is true. The issue I have is that Christianity still has to affirm that the Torah was valid, if only in the past. Remember, supposedly Jesus said that not a jot or tittle will pass from the law, that he came to fulfill the law.

It's like some Moloch worshipper saying "Oh year, human sacrifice used to be practiced, but that was just the old Molochean covenant which was just with the Carthaginians. We have the new covenant where human sacrifice isn't required! Praise Moloch!

>>511082078
Yes and you also have free will at the same time. I already know your argument.

>>511066132 (OP)
>>511081452
This guy gets it. Religion doesnt represent our creator, Religion exists to spiritually imprison and make them stupid little slaves afraid to question reality, to fearful of asking questions afraid to displease their god and getting sent to hell. So they remain ignorant and their answer to everything is "god did it" or when they see evil instead of doing anything they say "god will punish them" its all a trap to make us weak little docile slaves.

>>511082156
I already know your argument too. Does God control you?

>>511075296
>Yes Zeus impregnated a Jewish woman so of course he'd be circumcised.
>But the theology Jesus taught was very close to Greek Middle Platonism and very far from Semitic tribalism.
Jesus quoted from the Torah and also took ideas from the oral law that led to the later Talmud. Where does he go into middle Platonism? I assume you're referencing gospels, not Paul's stuff.

>>511066132 (OP)
i don't necessarily think he does do that to non-believers that aren't garbage. i don't think fire and brimstone was originally in the bible

itt neetsoc thinks non-STD rotcock is a good thing

>>511081659
>So anything that still allows for sex and reproduction is not mutilation?

I specifically said "enjoy sex". If you can't orgasm, like it happens with actual real genital mutilation of girls, then that's another story; the body has beed defiled.

>What if you have your eyes gouged out or your arm cut off?

You cannot have sight without eyes or get around well at all without arms.

>Is that a mutilation?

That would be.

>Amputating half the nerves of a penis is mutilation.

If they are having fun and breeding, it's fair game. And on top of that, I can tell you a story about my health complications with a fully intact anteater dick.

>And of course this is done with no anesthetic so that the infant experiences excruciating pain. You're circumcised and you're coping.

Tough shit.

>>511082032
Monks are based! 99% of them aren't pedophiles, they just have a pedophile leader! You even admit this is true of the Vatican. Tell me, are there any ascetic orders of consequence where the leaders aren't pedos? And to the original point, why should we just orders which constantly seem to filter pedos to the top to run anything in society?

>>511082232
That's a good question. He's ultimately a being of reciprocal love so I want to say no. I can't answer that.

>>511081689
But God created your will.

>>511081689
The cat chose the door where the smelly fish was in. He had ample opportunity to reflect on whether or not he should picked that door. Now he burning alive forever. Based God.

>>511077197
>I am a degenerate shit that immediately follows whatever hedonistic impulse enters my brain with no consideration of consequence or causality, as long as whichever system I ascribed to told me it was OK
I fucking hate the fact I am forced to live on this prison planet with you fucking tards.
You absolute fucking NPCattlenigger.
(YOU) are enabler of our parasitic pedokike overlords.
Get your fucking shit together.

>>511066132 (OP)
It's not about the act itself but the implications. Life is but a test, and acknowledging a deity above yourself is a part of it. If you deny him willingly then that indicates arrogance on your part. Obviously though you are free from indictment if you are genuinely unconvinced.

>>511066132 (OP)
Ancient people didn't understand mental illness. Some mentally ill people can be very convincing. They also didn't know how to recognize psychopathy.

>>511081219
>Circumcision is not sexual mutilation
Mutt moment

>>511079697
It broken into 2 parts the first is with substance the 2nd part is through logic and deduction. This world is hijacked, since a long time. We are just walking batteries being reload times and times again, drained and reloaded then drained again, which kills your inner light through shattering.
You can try astral travel to find out about the Astral which would help you understand further the nature of this fucked up realm and its controllers.
>>511079893
Canonical Gospel from the new testament that was written 150-600 after Jesus, no.
>>511079933
Friend older Gnostic books have also been heavily infiltrated by the Archonic minions too, there are some that veered towards the evil side as to say if you can’t beat them join them. I became a Gnostic not reading Gnostic books but through life experiences, meditations, astral planning, and trying to understand the Nature of this realm. Alexender Laurent’s interview is also a good read to understand who are the controllers and how they operate. Reading about the past like the Pharaons, Atlantis and Lemuria, the life of Early Christian Cathars would were slaughtered by the Catholics for being Gnostics, is also a good path. Wes Penre - tricked by the light, is also interesting to read.
Godlikeproductions got lots of resources on the subject, you should search the topic there.

>>511082180
And what strength does humanity have to boast of instead?

>>511082516
Yes, God gave you free will to choose what is not God. Otherwise love has no meaning.

>>511082523
Your analogy is wrong, because you said there is only one attempt. In real life, there are countless attempts. Everyday you make tons of choices to remain ignorant as a way of life. Every single day you choose.

And in your example, the cat has no way of knowing, exept smell if there is any. That's why spreading the gospel is so important. Knowledge is responsibility. After knowing the gospel, choosing against it is even worse than before you knew it.

>>511081273
>Also circumcision back then was just a tiny incision not the mutilation it is today.
Stop repeating CI copes. Zipporah explicitly removes and then throws the foreskin in the biblical narrative.

>>511082366
>If you can't orgasm, like it happens with actual real genital mutilation of girls, then that's another story; the body has beed defiled.
Ok then, go to reddit.com/r/circumcisiongrief and hear from all the people who can't orgasm because they are circumcised. And we aren't talking about "botched" circumcisions, just "normal" ones. Circumcision IS genital mutilation, by your own criteria.
https://archive.org/details/AmericanCircumcision is an excellent documentary on the subject as well.

>inb4 but some circumcised people can orgasm
But many cannot. If the procedure is a coin toss as to which it will be, it's clearly mutilation.

Of course this is just the criteria you made up just now. It just happens to be sufficient to prove my point. Involuntarily amputating any part of a person's body for a non medical reason is mutilation.

>>511082359
Odd that the majority of the planet, where circumcision isn't practiced, doesn't have this problem. Where are masses of STDs and smelly dick stereotypes from Europe and Japan?

>>511082433
Yes you can't answer it because there is a contradiction in religious logic. You can be blamed for evil but God created the evil. God isn't evil but he created evil, it's an unavoidable contradiction.
This is why i don't believe in dualism, anthropomorphizing God doesn't help either, this simplistic, convenient view of a higher power does nothing but confuse me.

>>511077729
There are lots of reports of out of body experiences, not just a few. I don't think they are all lying. They all imply that consciousness has an element independent of the body.

You could not prove it does not if it did not. But when they prove it does, it should be pretty convincing in my opinion.

>>511081404
>Why do Christians in America get circumcised?
The torah commands jews to circumcise their slaves.

>>511081910
I had my dick hoodie partially fused to the head for years and it was misserably annoying and painful. Cut that shit off.

>>511082647
Perhaps our country's greatest shame. But in my opinion, this is THE refutation for the abrahamic faiths.

>>511082734
That's an absolute joke, how can you choose to be against God? It's impossible, even Satan is under the control of God.

>>511081336
The point I made is that God isn't torturing you, it's the other humans who have the same hearts as you punishing each other because those are the kinds of people you chose to be. Hypothetically, the afterlife for saints and sinners could be identical in theory if the sinners simply chose not to sin in the afterlife. However, they are sinners who chose their sin over God and therefore will always choose sin over goodness.

Every good inclination you have is God giving you the choice between righteousness of God and the righteousness of man, the latter of which is imperfect and often more evil than good. Satan also chose his own righteousness over God's, and in the process committed himself to evil. When you are separated from God after judgement, he will remove his laws from your heart and stop calling to you. It would be something your conscience being taken away.

Spending eternity with other human beings completely given into their sin and vices with no conscience. This is what damnation is. God doesn't have to do anything for a place like that to be likened to fire and brimstone.

These are very high concepts that you could spend four years at divinity school and still not comprehend entirely.

>>511082807
Are you a Muslim? I sure am and even i acknowledge how retarded circumcision is. Perhaps not as pernicious as some folks here make it to be, but still inane. God has made your body in a perfect fashion so let it be.

>>511080118
Far from "only". He puts up with a lot.

>>511079645
Hell and Heaven does not exist I agree. Hell on earth is real. Heaven is to me the reunification with God (in Pleroma, the 7th dimension) where Source is, also where we all came from, to me that’s Heaven, and is my goal after my death. Im not getting trapped in physicality again no matter what they would try to lure me with.

>>511080248
Doesn't it hurt to pull shit out of your ass like that?

>>511082807
Actually, the foreskin is supposed to be attached to the glans until puberty. If it persists after that, it can be detached without having to amputate the whole thing.
>had
Like I said, circumcised and coping.

>>511082734
Maybe I am just as stupid as a cat and no matter what combination of words you use on me, I have no reason to take them seriously. Your belief is not knowledge, from my perspective it's all made up nonsense. Yet your God is going to torture me for eternity just because I was designed in a way that made me find your story goofy as fuck. How am I any more at fault in my reasoning than a cat going for the fish? I am who I am.

>>511081839
What are you asking me to explain? The biblical worldview, or my own?
The bible is hard determinism. Zero free will, yahweh has created everything and knows how everything plays out ahead of time (and he is separate from time and space anyway).

In contrast, I believe in extremely limited free will. The Fates have handed you a select number of cards, and you can play those how you see fit. But most people don't have the "become king" card or whatever, let alone "defy gravity".

>>511080127
>Zoroastrianism
Never investigated them desu. All I know is they worship fire or some shit like that.
Also all Im saying is to escape this fake and gay realm, it’s a trap for your souls to be incarcerated “ad aeternum”.

>>511082896
Words words words
The bible clearly says that the punishment/result/whatever word you want to use is eternal suffering/punishment/whatever word you want to use. This is irreconcilable with an infinite, all loving all merciful god.

>>511082923
Yes hell and heaven are states of being, I think this idea of hell and heaven being some kind of idealistic astral places comes from the platonic idea of the realm of forms, because platonism has a long history of coexisting with Christianity.

>>511082923
Evidence needed moor boi
>>511083021
It's about intentions, if you tried but genuinely couldn't believe then by which reason would you be punished? It's not white and black as you make it to be, as in disbelieving means hell by default.

>>511080248
We can develop more perfection. I prefer to think of it as completeness, so where someone is now isn't necessarily on the wrong track, but incomplete, still in process. The words perfect and complete are the same in Hebrew.

>>511082807
Yes, that's an exception.
There might have been other remedies, btw. I also had some degree of phimosis, but cured it.

>>511082886
God has a certain nature and will. Acting against that nature and will is acting against God.

Satan has free will and chose against God, and now suffers in separation. I pray he is recovered one day.

>>511082516
Yes, God created everything. And everything dies. But the only thing a human being has forever is his choices. That is literally why God created man, that we might become like Him (& Him, & Him), not gods per se, but LIKE God. Wise. Merciful. Patient. Long-suffering. Forgiving. Generous. Fatherly/brotherly/loving. All these come from choosing to turn to God, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ, and turning away from earthly desires and materialistic tendencies. It is a lesson in humility, and it is taught to each of us in our own time. There really is nothing new under the sun.

>>511082769
>But many cannot. If the procedure is a coin toss as to which it will be, it's clearly mutilation.

There's a risk to everything, but the majority of people seem to carry on with their sex lives just fine. Mudslimes are circed too and they reproduce and rape like crazy. Must be an american thing.

Comfy thread. Might need to bake another one tho.

>>511072988
christian pilpul

No man can come to me (yehsua) unless the Father draws him

Salvation is not your choice or decision but somehow hell is according to your bible

>>511082807
BTW, I'm not mocking you for being circumcised. Most circumcision victims don't have a choice. But I am for trying to pass it off as something that should be forced on others. Infants no less.

>>511081469
>hat kind of depraved experiment is that? If your god is real, fuck him.
That’s the game of the Demiurge not God, indeed fuck him. This world is sick and twisted. Have you seen how a Lion feeds ? Or how orcas kill for fun ? All geared towards max loosh generation through pain and misery of all life on earth. Life itself was created to generate the loosh for the Demiurge to use to power this fake and gay realm.

>>511083184
Satan is the only one guaranteed beyond redemption, we'll him and his angels. They transgressed against God before time itself was created, and they are living out their punishment now in stages. Save your prayers for brethren and the redemption of man. Leave Satan to his bitterness.

>>511082780
That goes back to the nature of love. You can't force something to love you so we were given the option. Ultimately, we can't understand God and we don't know why He made us.
>>511082886
God doesn't control Satan but He allows Satan to do what Satan wants to do. The thing is, God is and will ultimately pull good out of all evil. We just can't always see it because of our limited temporal perspective.

>>511082865
I agree. Learning about circumcision is what made me anti-semitic, then racist and eventually staunchly skeptical of even American Whites. I mean no particular offense to you as an individual, but it seems to have shifted you as an ethnic group away from the norms of the Europeans and our diaspora.
To mutilate the genitals of your own heirs is the worst sin I can imagine.

>>511080371
No. "Follow these rules the best you can to get closer to me. Flout them and I have to set you at a distance."

>>511081950
> He rescued us
Lol. Provide evidence please ? You dont even see the brainwashing. Every religion have this brain conditioning to suffer and do nothing because “your savior” is coming to rescue you. Your brain washing is strong though you think he ALREADY rescued you, kek.

>>511083184
>Acting against that nature and will is acting against God.
You can't act against God, it is impossible, you would have to exist in another dimension or something, since everything that exists is created by God.

Satan was created by God, God knew everything he would do, in fact Satan was God's minion, it says so in your own holy book.

>>511083268
I'm not circumcised. I said "cut it" as in "do it", not as in "I had it done".

>>511083249
You are trying to put into a box the mind of God. Is it really so hard for some to see that he both knows everything that has happened, happens, and shall happen, being outside of time and space, while simultaneously allowing time to unfold, and the choices his creations (we) make within it? This is a tired old argument that betrays spiritual nascence - you don't even know how wrong you can be, let alone how wrong you are.

>>511080419
Those circumcised dicks work pretty well. Devout Jews and Muslims tend to have very large families.

>>511082923
My personal belief is that gnosticism is the oldest psyop in the universe perpetuated by the first liar to have ever existed.

The Serpent in the Garden of Eden also promised Eve that she could be just like God if she obtained the secret knowledge of the tree, and it damned her.

Satan's fall was likewise caused by he himself trying to be like God.

The catholics were right to stamp out gnosticism wherever it reared its head, because by your own testimony it came to you through the occult. This is overwhelmingly the case in gnostics i've spoken to. You open yourself up to commune with extra-dimensional entities and just assume they have no interest in deceiving you? Can you see how a spirit damned to eternal punishment might be motivated to sabotage another of God's creation who received a special kind of grace?

We will never become one with god or return to god in the gnostic sense. We are created beings and will simply have our wills aligned with god, and live with him eternally as subservient and worshipful creations. Any being who would tell you that you yourself are god or can become a god, is pulling what is quite literally the oldest trick in the book.

>>511083201
How can you turn to God if you can't turn away from him? It doesn't make any sense.
>>511083248
Do it kara boga.

>>511083406
My evidence is the revelations of the prophetic tradition leading up to Christ all being true plus subjective experiences done in good faith. This isn't a math equation, it's reality

>>511066132 (OP)
God doesn't need to rule through fear anymore than gravity needs to rule through fear.

>But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
That's because you were raised by women and have a feminine point of view that cannot comprehend being accountable for your own actions.

>>511083545
Every religion tries to separate the physical from the spiritual. Judaism and Christianity are the only religions that say your spirit was co-created with your body

>>511083249
This is Calvinism essentially, and that's why Calvinism is heresy.

>>511066132 (OP)
>I want to believe in God. But the idea of him sending non believers to eternal torment just doesn't sit right with me.
what ever gave you that idea? sounds retarded. why wouldnt you just dismiss it as foolish?

>>511083205
>There's a risk to everything,
More cope. Anon there's a risk to taking walk. There's a risk to eating cornflakes. Trying to equate these things to forcibly amputating part of a baby's penis is absurd. You know what definitively has much less risk than circumcising? Not circumcising.

>seem to
Yes for a variety of reasons including same, social pressure, psychological harm, ignorance, etc., many men do not speak out. Of course when they do people like you ignore it because you would have to challenge your own beliefs. Picrelated is fully of letters from men about the issues circumcision has caused them, and why society ignores them.
https://www.mendocomplain.com/

>Mudslimes are circed too and they reproduce and rape like crazy.
Yes, as I said this is a problem of all abrahamic faiths, and proves abramic faiths aren't true. Are you saying that because Muslims do it, it's ok?
>Must be an american thing.
It's an abrahamic thing; its source in America comes from Jews and Christians. But you don't want to acknowledge this because it would refute Christianity and you're coping about that now.

>>511083134
Yea if I'm the kind of person who can't believe because it's in my nature to doubt silly stories then I am being sent to hell, that's what was being said earlier.
>>511083284
Orcas are based. I'm glad they are having fun killing you niggers, that's how it should be. My point is not to hate nature, I love nature.

>>511083559
But you can turn away from Him... Have you seen the state of the world? Tell me how aligned the average person is. I struggle daily and moment by moment and constantly fail, but for most of my life, I didn't even try. Yes, absolutely we are given the choice to say yes or no to God Himself.

>>511083407
This is logical. It can be why there is accurate prophecy. It's as described in quantum mechanics, a deterministic system that is even reversible; you can run history backwards.

So if there's no free will then none of this matters and this whole discussion was preordained, but if there is free will, I would suggest doing the best you can to get closer to God.

>>511083624
So much this. But thankfully, the Lord is merciful, and we can never deserve the mercy already given.

>>511083661
Judaism says the soul is placed into the body, and when the body dies, the soul leaves it. Not that they're created together.

>>511066132 (OP)
Primary Cause faggot, you respect that as a secondary cause. Anyone not getting that in the grand scheme of everything within space and time is an ingrate as well as a pretentious fool.

>>511083361
Yes you're exactly right it does go back to the nature of love, and i don't think you can express love with words, i don't believe in this notion that you have a choice to either love or not.
>God doesn't control Satan but He allows Satan to do what Satan wants to do.
He knew exactly what satan would do when he chose to create him, that's the same thing as controlling him, Satan is God's right hand man and Michael is his other, nothing else makes any sense. Many religious people describe God as if he were a schizophrenic or something, creating evil to destroy it, having no idea what he's doing, maybe they're right, but it's not compatible with the idea of God being all knowing.

>>511083021
No, humans are above animals. No one is as stupid as a cat.

God looks into the hearts and minds of everybody and judges accordingly. The evil ones go to hell.

>>511083331
What is the point of him being in hell after this universe is over?

I know he sinned in eternity and not in time. Perhaps there is a way, but not before long.

>>511083407
You are denying free will now.

Is this really true for you experientially?

>>511083105
Every ideology, religion, that is “mainstream” and retained its public acknowledgment today is corrupted material to soften the souled being to go to the light and be trapped again for another lifetime.
Im sure there are some ancient religions in Lemuria which predates Atlantis that have some real knowledge but those books are wiped out or buried inside highly defended safe (vatican).
That being said, Platonism is also an archonic inspired script, along with all abrahamic religions, no exception, they all prepare you to be recycled and memory wiped.
>>511083134
>evidence
You are living in Hell fellow roach-bro. I think we all watch the Gazans being genocided which produces lots of loosh, but what generates even more loosh is the pain and suffering we all hold in our hearts watching them getting genocided while can’t do anything to help them no matter how hard we prayed.
The list is endless. If you are making money and living “the best time of your life” you are milking lots of souled beings for their loosh, that’s how you get rewarded on this fake and gay reality.

>>511083375
>it seems to have shifted you as an ethnic group away from the norms of the Europeans and our diaspora
I think this will be a blip in the timeline; the trend is being reversed already, it just doesn't get mainsteam attention. The core of it will die with the boomers alongside blind support for Israel. I have similar complaints about cultural drift of many Europeans (likewise no offense to you personally); allowing yourselves to be disarmed is crazy to me. Is it worse than circumcision? Almost certainly not, but I don't mean it as a comparison or counterpoint.

>>511083967
But you can do something to help them. You can take them into your country.

Now do you want to argue more about this because you really want to stick Israel with them but won't admit it -- or get back on topic?

>I ask this from a place of total intellectual honesty
lol ok pajeet

>>511083922
No, it's not the same as controlling him. If I leave a piece of candy out in front of a child, and I know the child loves candy, am I controlling the child? Or am I tempting him?

the majority of pajeets on /pol/ try to hide the fact that they're pajeets. in addition to "leaving that part out" they will proactively, persistently misrepresent their true form. pajeets are all about assuming other people's roles, from today's outsourcing and replacement migration all the way back to thuggee bandits lying to travelers about who they were. pajeets are devoid of their own identity, making them the ideal globalized goyim. they don't want a home where they belong. all that means to them is "compete in squalor." much better to go somewhere nicer, built by other people, and do their jobs for less pay and live slum-barracks life in their suburbs. pajeets don't want to be home. they also don't want to be pajeets. jews know exactly how to play their insecurities and dopey ambitions like the innocent rube fresh off the bus from the cornfield. this is their new golem to replace the ones that don't love them anymore

>>511083021
Technically the church teaches that there is such a thing as "invincible ignorance." For example, if you were a human being who was raised by wolves, then your brain wouldn't develop to the point where you could understand language at all, and it would therefore be impossible for you to follow Christ.

Invincible ignorance is a part of the infallible magisterium, but only as a broad concept. What exactly constitutes "invincible" is up for debate

>>511083752
Again i think this whole free will vs determinism thing is just another dualism, there's no such thing as perfect free will, and yet we can still influence things, there will always be external factors and internal factors that determine the state of a system, you can never remove either one.

>>511066132 (OP)
Most people are not going to follow God out of love.
They're silly monkeys and the only way God can get through to them is fear.
This is why the fear of God is beginning of all wisdom.

>>511083533
>works pretty well
People believe this because they don't have a point of comparison. There are some people living "normal lives" with an entire hemisphere of their brain missing. Certainly this isn't evidence half the brain is useless or insignificant. Again look at the links/books I posted. The difference is very big and very real.

>>511084184
You are certainly tempting the child, and either testing him or trying to lead him astray -- or just give him a nice piece of candy.

It is control, but we all have control even without ever knowing it. When a butterfly flaps its wings, it might affect things miles away.

>>511082769
>Where are masses of STDs and smelly dick stereotypes from Europe and Japan?

Ok, so this is my first day being jewish, so let me see if I got this right.

You are dumb and evil. also you do not have a gf and you are short and ugly and everyone hates you.

So, does this answer your question? WAIT.. you are a terrorist.

>>511084184
You're obviously controlling him if you knew he would eat the candy, If i'm God and i created Satan knowing every single thing he'll do i'm controlling him, you're assuming free will.

>>511084234
Wow, I thought this kind of crap was just aimed at us Jews. Now you've found a more numerous target for your spew.

>>511083947
But he won't be in hell. His first punishment is being immortal and very powerful but confirmed in the time-prison of creation (time passes for Satan as it does for us, but he is formless and immortal). His second punishment is utter and complete destruction, irrevocable and permanent (as far as man can know). The point is that he will have served his purpose - yes, God does allow it. Satan is practically in veritable chains on earth, everything he does is of his own volition, but permitted by God. And upon the Resurrection, those who chose poorly (including Satan) will die the second death, in the Lake of Fire, which is total and utter obliteration - but, outside of time, this could take an excruciatingly long... Time.. to take place... Not all at once, as it were.

>>511084415
You're assuming lack of free will. If I tempt you, and you succumb, and throw up your hands and say "he made me do it!" You are a perfect reiteration of Adam in the garden - sinful, and cowardly, and worthy of punishment. But it need not be that way. Take responsibility, own your sins, and repent of them. This is the first step in turning to the Truth. What else could we want? Lies?

>>511084519
But did Satan know all this? He thought he could win...

>>511084367
There is a difference. The circumcised dicks fulfill their natural purpose better; this is the statistical conclusion. As for other things -- feelings, spiritual aspects -- I won't go into it here.

>>511066132 (OP)
If God has infinite power and knowledge and he created the universe, then why does he seek affirmation and acknowledgement from us, who are not even comparable to ants in relation to him?

>>511084675
>If I tempt you, and you succumb, and throw up your hands and say "he made me do it!"

Can you at least try to stop using human analogies and think from the perspective of a omniscient, omnipotent God and what cause and effect would mean to such a being?

>>511084381
Yes, and that is why God gives us the temptations -albeit indirectly at times. It is to strengthen us. We are called to overcome, not surrender. In return, we are granted Wisdom, which is God's own mind, aligned with us. It is a precious and worthy gift that we can only hope to achieve, by God's grace.

>>511084060
>the trend is being reversed already
Really? That's good. I had heard that it was essentially schisming: the christian types were doubling down on it and circumcising even more, and the rest were gradually ending the practice.
In Scandinavia, we've tried to ban circumcision several times by popular demand, but this or that rabbi always shows up to make sure the politicians don't listen. There was even a kosher proposal to ban circumcision after the eighth day (meaning the jews would be unaffected). Lmao the sheer chutzpah
>allowing yourselves to be disarmed is crazy to me
No disagreement there, although as a general rule we're comparable to your most guncucked states. We do lack the martial individualist culture that you have though. It is a simple explanation: European nations (especially in my neck of the woods) were extremely high trust collectives with functionally zero crime. As a collective, each nation was extremely well armed (ie. the military). The average man felt no need to think much of violence of any kind unless he was called upon by the state to serve in war, in which case the state would provide what training and arms he needed.
Americans, by contrast, conquered their new lands in small groups and even individual homesteads, so each man had to be much more self-reliant than in Europe, where we could specialize into de facto castes. You probably have a slightly narrower bell curve of IQ too as a result, I'd wager.

>>511084675
God knew Adam was going to eat the fruit anon.
Ready for a redpill?
Crack open Genesis, read God's instructions to Adam and Eve.
He does not mention to them the fruit of the tree of life.
Now if they had eaten that first, which they were allowed to do, then eaten the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, they'd be in the exact same situation they would be in if they ate the fruit of the tree of life after the fruit of knowledge.
Which was why God kicked them out, to prevent that.
Yet God doesn't mention the fruit of the tree of life, why not? He doesn't want them to eat that then the fruit of the tree of knowledge either.
The answer is, he knew they'd eat the forbidden fruit first.
God doesn't always show all his cards.

>>511066132 (OP)
Retard

>>511066132 (OP)
There isn't a God, it's the men who invented him that need to control through fear

>>511084834
We are made in his image and likeness!

>>511084675
>You're assuming lack of free will.
That's not how burden of proof works, you're reversing it, the burden of evidence is on the person who makes the claim not the person who denies the claim.
>Take responsibility, own your sins, and repent of them. This is the first step in turning to the Truth. What else could we want? Lies?
If your type of God exists, how can anyone claim responsibility for anything? Wouldn't that in fact be thinking of yourself as God? If God is responsible for all things, you can't just turn around and say oh except those things I want to blame you for, if he is responsible for all things he is responsible for everyone, all of their actions, and everything that happens too, otherwise, God is not all powerful, nor is he all knowing.

>>511083736
>sinking boats filled with niggers and sellout cowards
Im okay with this loosh extraction operation.

>>511083922
if god were all knowing none of this would even be necessary
wouldnt need no test, he'd already know

and the reason people think god is some schizophrenic is because youre referring to the jewish god of yahweh, not god as it exists irl. of course its schizophrenic. its jewish, and literally just a manlet fanfictional tale of a jew with unlimited power circa 2300 years ago. why do you think his vehicle of choice is a chariot and not a DeLorean? its because the people who wrote it literally could not conceive of anything beyond their own personal environment and experience. there was a very clear limit to the extent of their imagination, not to mention their intelligence.

>>511084869
That sounds reasonable.

>>511085017
You can't know that just like we can't know God is real.
God is in superposition; he's both real and not real depending on if you believe in him.
The truth is completely unknowable.
So what advantage do you get out of not believing?
Nothing. You get absurdism and nihilism.
Meanwhile, faith is worth more than all the money on earth.
You traded that for nothing lol.

>>511066132 (OP)
The jewish god.

>>511066132 (OP)
>What kind of God needs to rule through fear?
A jewish one.
Aka, Satan
Come get to know Christ, he's king!

>>511084836
Yes that's what I see from the majority of religious people, they try to describe God like he's a human, and it leads to all kinds of contradictions and total nonsenses, but i get that it is hard to talk about a divine being from the perspective of a person.

>>511084887
i think thats called the D.A.R.E. program
its pretty much the entire foundation of abrahamism

>>511066132 (OP)
jewish god

>>511085017
Something comes from nothing, explain that faggot. Time is a creation btw so factor your fedora to explain how and why.

>>511066132 (OP)
It's no different than punishing a criminal with jail, sin is a crime against God, the creator. God is infinitely Holy and righteous so any sin against Him carries eternal consequences.

If you are coming at this from an intellectual point of view then you have to admit that it is impossible for something to be built on a foundation that doesn't exist, if nothingness is the foundation of existence then there would be no existence, what we observe, everything that makes up the world is finite and contingent. If we take this back to the point of origin we end up needing something that is infinite, something that is eternal, something that was not created but always existed, something that has a will to create something instead of existing by itself, something that cannot be constrained by the limits of time, space and matter and yet is powerful and is the foundation for the existence of all of these things.

That eternal being is God. Now, which God it is depends on how much you know about the beings that people call gods.

>>511084836
God in the garden with Adam after Eve sinned twice, serving his word and adding to it. There is the same example from God's perspective.

Here's another: you overeat, habitually. You find temptation everywhere, impossible to escape. You resist, but ultimately break, and feel miserable. The cycle repeats. Where is God in this? It is YOU who left Him out. Be tempted, be weak, but do not fail to call on Him. I forget the precise verse from Proverbs, I think 21.31, but "the horse is made ready for the day of battle, but help is from the Lord." We are hopeless without Him. All is vanity without Him. Absolutely he is ultimately in control. What Father wouldn't teach his children?

>>511085060
I doubt they'll get it, anon. But your post reminded me of this meme.

>>511084150
>But you can do something to help them. You can take them into your country.
Why not just stop genociding them and we live ever happy together in harmony and respect ? That would never happen because it does not produce enough loosh for the Demiurge, you will have his chosen creatures the jews playing tricks and kill.

>>511085231
You completely missed the point of what i'm saying.
The fruit of life wasn't forbidden, only the knowledge fruit was.
So he must have known the order in which they'd be consumed.

>>511084270
Interesting

>>511085060
Because God made us accountable to Him:) therefore, there is accountability. The rest is just men bickering. And you will never have a solid scrap to prove or disprove God. There is more than enough, however, to believe.

>>511084887
I've heard many interpretations of that story, but I don't think I've heard this one before, about the fruit of the tree of life.

>>511084887
Yes I'm surprised more religious people don't know this, it seems so obvious, but I suppose they don't like the idea of God knowing everything, it is a strange thing to think about I admit.

>>511084887
Christ is the tree of Life. We get to eat that too, but everything in its time.

>>511085166
>You can't know that
I don't care

>>511085246
>Something comes from nothing, explain that faggot.
Try less strawman faggot

>>511066132 (OP)
Fearing God is the first step towards wisdom but He won't force you to love Him but if you do, do it with your whole heart. God loves you more then you can comprehend. He's good to those who love Him.

>>511066132 (OP) You're not referring to God (Allah, Krishna, Yehovah, Tao, Source...). You're referring to your usual strawman. That's all your atheist retards can do.

>>511085552
Amen

>>511066132 (OP)
>But the idea of him sending non believers
If you're a non believer; you must stand and be judged before the Father alone
>If you're a believer
Jesus Christ stands in for you and stands before God to show payment for your sins
>Doesn't believe in God but wants to
Seriously, think about a creature older than time who's imagination created reality, may not align with your morals...

>>511085558
>memeflag
>bollocks
Checks out.
God is Jesus Christ. The rest is being degrees of wrong. It's the Truth.

>>511085083
>picrel
Or it could be that Jews realize they are observing everything subjectively, discuss those subjective experiences, and find commonallities with each others' experiences.

Whereas others ("whites"?) think they can see objectively, while still being trapped in their bodies, which is why Greek philosophy is so random and shallow. "Truth and beauty" but actually they're both subjective, and to be found in subjectivity.

There is one other thing though that Jews have: the Torah. Information from outside.

>>511085260
Kek yeah it seems to be a theme amongst religious people that they want to accept the great things God does without any of the bad, despite everything he seems to do in the old testament, i get it though it's hard to accept that God is all loving but also does all of the worst things too.

>>511085558
>You're referring to your usual strawman.
It's not really a strawman when it's in the oriental jew book which we've somehow come to make central to our western White culture.
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/9-10.htm

>>511085384
I think about free will a lot.
To me, this is evidence there's not as much free will as people would like to think.

>>511085303
no, i understand your point
but like someone else said, its like leaving a young boy home alone with a bottle of lighter fluid a lighter and a box of matches on the kitchen table and then coming home to find your house burned down and scolded because you told him not to use the lighter.
all youre doing is inceptioning him

the question you should be asking is why was the tree put there at all? this clearly isnt 'god', it barely even qualifies for human intelligence.

>>511084887
>Ready for a redpill?
>Crack open Genesis, read God's instructions to Adam and Eve.
>He does not mention to them the fruit of the tree of life.

Genesis 2 16-17
>16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
>17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


???

>>511085773
We have the freedom to choose, which is tantamount to free will. Whether or not the odds are stacked is irrelevant. Do people not choose to gamble? Or pray?

>>511085766
It's the main flaw of monotheism. You see christians "lose their faith" all the time when something terrible happens. Alternatively, they become de facto polytheists (or at least manicheans) and start blaming satan (as a free agent able to rival yahweh).
Regular ol' polytheism sidesteps that entire problem very easily.

>>511085376
What do you mean accountable? You're just throwing out words at this point. Actions have consequences, at least they seem to, that doesn't make you responsible for them.
>And you will never have a solid scrap to prove or disprove God. There is more than enough, however, to believe.
Isn't creation supposed to be evidence of God's existence?

>>511070288
Baby steps. Pray to Jesus to show you a sign and try to live as clean as possible for a little while. See it like a diet or a cleanse. See how you feel compared to now.

>>511085924
because God's plan was that we get kicked out.
Why else would he leave them alone with Satan?
Do you think he didn't know Satan by then lol

>>511085986
Notice he doesn't say "Don't eat the life fruit then the knowledge fruit because then you'll be immortal knowers like I don't want you to"?
He knew they wouldn't eat that one until they ate the forbidden one.

>>511085756
theyre only subjective for us, subjectivity is babby tier, the greeks werent talking about what they subjectively believed to be beauty, but what god subjectively (objectively) considered beauty
its such an elementary distinction which they go into very much detail talking about.
i say it all the time, all of this could have been avoided had jews simply understood plato.

So-called adults arguing over a fairytale

>>511085384
Read the bible again but imagine that God knows everything that's going to happen, it makes a lot more sense.
>>511085773
There is no such thing as perfect free will at least, i can't just turn into a beaver because i want to.

>>511086031
Why do you refuse to see? We choose, and we will be accountable for our choices before the Lord. What is unclear?

>>511085773
Jews believe that the Tree of Life is the Torah (broadly construed). And we are told that the Torah is not in Heaven, but here. It's instructions for living here. So maybe the "fruit of the Tree of Life" exists only here, and in the Garden of Eden it wasn't visible.

As for free will and predestination, if this story was all pre-written, it has some very funny twists and turns built in. I dunno.

>>511086003
Not always.
Pharoah never had a choice in Exodus.
At every point God was directly influencing him.
Same for lots of people like when Abraham said "She's my sister" God messes with another guy's free will to keep him from banging her, when he tries to take credit for it God tells him straight up "I kept you from doing it."

>>511083545
Gnosticism (the right one there are lots that been infiltrated too) is not saying you are God or you can be like God. No one can be like God, God is Source. We as souled beings, what constitute our soul is made in the image of God, it’s an ISO CD copy of God that is inside all of us, that does not mean that we are God, but made in his image in our soul level. This is what the Demiurge wants to trap.
>because by your own testimony it came to you through the occult
Occult means hidden. There is nothing evil about that is hidden. And it’s hidden because the elites wants it to stay that way.
>You open yourself up to commune with extra-dimensional entities and just assume they have no interest in deceiving you?
Never did that. I have never allow my mind to open for a 3rd entity. I always looked to crack the code of system by own power and understanding.
And Im against interacting with entities, in meditations or astral travels.
>We will never become one with god or return to god in the gnostic sense.
Peace is only in Source, you will find out later when you expire, we will all find out.
>and live with him eternally as subservient and worshipful creations.
Where ? Do you think God is in human form ? God is NOT physical. Physicality is propre to this realm. In order to live with God, we will reunite with Him in the non-physical. No 72 virgins either kek.
>beings
Never open your consciousness's port to any being. If you do, it’s like a backdoor they can use forever.
As you can see Im well aware of that.

>>511085924
what you're describing is exactly why humans don't deserve to be saved in the first place, and that salvation is a gift. remember that in genesis God actually has a moment where he regrets creating mankind because they seem to only be capable of evil, but noah's righteousness persuades god to extend an offer of salvation to humanity.

>>511086077
which is essentially just the foundation for the jewish mode of thinking: so long as i get away with it, god approves.

>>511086156
Then anything would make sense because it's all a script and the script could be anything. That's a boring interpretation.

Am I missing something?

>>511086180
It is likely a parable and a metaphor, which still has the same value as truth as if it were a literal event.
But consider what keeps them from returning to Eden, it is a flaming sword.
What does the Bible call the word of God over and over?
A sword.
So yeah, I don't think it's a literal place either, more likely a parable with redpills hidden in it like most of God's stories.

>>511086028
Yes but i actually think most modern Christians are polytheists, they think that Satan is a god, most of their contradictions could be relieved by being more strictly monotheists, but then you have to give up this simplistic idea that God is like a human.

>>511086138
From what I've seen of Plato, yeah we understand it. But how did Plato know what God considered to be beauty? Was he a prophet and received a message?

>>511086149
So called "white men" playing dumb, denying the foundation of western civilization and the reason that they have prospered so much.

In other words you are a self-destructive, satanic, faggot.

>>511086236
>noah
aka deucalion
>salvation
shit job then. got a real competency crisis upstairs if thats what happened (it didnt)

the jewish god is literally a jewish midwit, unhinged, erratic, a complete fool.

>>511086556
You got filtered by parables lol
Noah's Ark is obviously parable with symbolic numerology all over it.
40 days and 40 nights aka the same length of time they use for embalming.
I haven't decoded the whole thing but it's obviously a coded info dump.

>>511086344
I think I agree with you about the sword generally. But there are other places. Even, where do we go when we're asleep? Sometimes at least to other places.

Nice talking to you, friend. I have to go mow the lawn now.

>>511086160
You might choose, but still God controls that choice. You originally said we were responsible for our actions. Does God control our actions or do we control our actions? If God doesn't have control over our actions then he is not all knowing.

>>511083712
>Yes, as I said this is a problem of all abrahamic faiths, and proves abramic faiths aren't true.

Abrahamic faith is a meaningless term. You have the one true God of the bible and everything else is fake news and devils.

>Are you saying that because Muslims do it, it's ok?

I'm saying they don't seem to be having trouble deriving pleasure from the tons of sex they're having, and what would that even matter to an incel? It's not like dick's getting used anyways.

>>511086482
>yeah we understand it
no, we dont
>how did he know what god considered to be beauty
he didnt, he only knew that some perfect Form of it existed. the best we could hope to do was approximate. its all rather complicated and very detailed. but he goes over all of this lol

>>511086338
Sometimes the truth is boring and simple. I'm not going to get into the whole free will determinism thing, i'll just say i think it's a false dualism.

>>511086674
Even if we do have "free will" there is no choice God could not cause or prevent without detection.
Nature of omnipotence.
This is a huge redpill as it means the world and everything in it is 100% intentional.

>>511086415
I'm assuming you're in Catalonia. Down there, yeah, most christians are catholics, and catholics are functionally full on polytheistic, having made a large number of concessions to Roman polytheism early on.
Protestants are closer to the bible and more monotheistic, and Calvin is the main guy I'm aware of who is most consistent in his biblical interpretation. He's also a full predeterminist, which triggers all the other christians. American christians seem largely to be de facto manicheans, interestingly enough.
You could go full on monotheism mode though, but pretty much only semites seem able to maintain that idea multi-generationally. It just isn't in our blood.

>>511086224
1. You are not touching the universe when you mediate or accessing some extradimensional library. You are merely listening to the voices of spirits. These spirits are motivated to deceive you, and if confounding the source of these revelations is necessary to that, that's what they will do.

2. I never said God is physical, but eternity for us will be confined to 3D space. Jesus did not give us the answers to every question we might have about what this would look like, but we will never cease to be 3-dimensional beings.

3. The pride and certainty you have that you are beyond the influence of the entities you're bumping shoulders with, will only set you up for destruction.

>>511086555
>denying the foundation of western civilization
An oriental text by a foreign people is the foundation of western civilization?

>>511086556
>God killed people
>God mean

God has the authority to give and take life, we are bound by the commandment, from God, to not take life. Keep crying about how mean God is for taking life that belongs to him while simultaneously posting "natural selection" when hundreds of people are killed in a major tragedy.

>>511085308
All

>>511086887
Thread is ending so i can't reply but thank you for the conversation.

>>511086813
Very interesting intepretation.

>>511086662
theres no hidden underlying coded messages in the bible, go watch pi and the number 23. you can make anything say anything if you spend enough time trying to make it so.

also, the annunaki were literal retards who couldnt even figure out how to feed or clothe themselves who were drinking water out of gutters and eating grass off the ground like sheep. theres no ancient ayys, theres no 5d chess. it was social engineering which the elites employed to retain their own power, it was never legit. theres nothing divine or holy about it. its merely wrapped in a holy wrapper. just a cheap dollar store veneer with a layer of gold spray paint.

>>511086887
What is this gobbledegook? Catholics don't believe in multiple gods and never made concessions to "roman polytheism."

Protestants opened the Bible to scriptural relativism which is why the largest protestant denominations, Presbyterian and Episcopalian, are so pozzed.

>>511087098
LMAO that is silly.
The Bible is full of double and sometimes even triple meanings.
Pretty much anything Jesus says you can count on having at least 2 meanings.