Thread 96319028

Do you prefer healers to be magic people in robes or magic people in armor?

I prefer no healers, it's a pointless archetype that exists for stoner casuals and uninterested girlfriends. The best part of 5e is how healers are completely worthless. If you have healing word and revivify that is all the healing you will ever need.

For me it's functional sociopath in blood-stained labcoat.

>>96319028 (OP)
I prefer what fits in the game I'm playing. Sometimes it's a robe-wearer. Sometimes is a fervent crusader. Sometimes it's a nerdy scientist. Whatever.

>>96319036
Reject healing. Embrace respawning.

I had an idea for a campaign where the party was trapped in a hell dimension and as such were unable to die. If their character ever died, they would reform at a predetermined point without their memories. They would feel a psychic pull towards their previous corpse, and upon reaching it they regain all of their memories.

Yeah I play Dark Souls, how could you tell?

>>96319028 (OP)
both

>>96319028 (OP)
Magic people in armor. The only people who disagree are butthurt Paladins who want to hog the spotlight.

>>96319028 (OP)
i prefer magic people in robes for the aesthetic. Armor is for people that hit things

Support classes that just accelerate time to kill also cause the party to take less damage.

But it works on the logistics side to "increase time in dungeon". But a support class could just have "potions are half weight for you" and you keep everyone's belt potions topped off.

>>96319121
>lose their memories
So would the players just pretend to not know where they are going after they died?

>>96319028 (OP)
I like both. The armour/protective gear worn should vary for other reasons, like wealth, role etc.

I managed to include both as separate classes in my homebrew system. And tell me why I should not.
You can also play an arcane spellcaster that heals by using light or nature magic.

>>96319028 (OP)
3 types
Knight with some healing
Armored with less offensive weapon, more healing
Robed, max healing

Simple as

Why not a mix of both?

>>96319028 (OP)
Why not in the nude?

>>96319059
Based

>>96319036
>I prefer no healers
>also post Goy Divers
Like clockwork.

>>96319028 (OP)
Both, nog. What, you think only one can exist in a setting? The robes get better magic casting while the armored get better durability and combat prowess to stay in the frontlines.

Robes because it lets me get into the fantasy more, I like clerics / warrior priest types too but it's different kind of thing and honestly in that case I'd rather be a Paladin

>>96319028 (OP)
My childhood is Warcraft 3, so in this image what I see is a priest and a paladin, but in reality it's a white mage and a priest.

>>96320552
The clerics/warrior priests aren't there to slaughter enemies. They're there to protect fallen allies, heal others who out of range of the robes, and take out weaken enemies while the paladins and fighters fight the stronger enemies. They don't share the same duty.

>>96320565
With respect this is a load of bullshit that leans in on the whole 'clerics = healers' schtick, it is entirely possible to create a damage dealing lord of death with a cleric, it all depends on the spells chosen.

>>96320759
Who said only healing? What do you have to say on what I also said they do? They can do other things than just healing.

>>96320516
Great job at being dumber then the faggot you are replying to.

>>96319943
Knight with some healing
Wood Guy with very little healing but herbal knowledge

Spirit guy with elements and average healing

Animal-shifting guy with average-to-good healing
Armored with less offensive weapon, good healing

Robed dude, max healing

>>96319028 (OP)
I prefer actual healing (curing wounds) to be done outside of combat by someone with a medical expertise and maybe some religion thrown in, and cumbersome armor gives penalties.
I don't care what kind of clothes in-combat hp restores have, be them bards or warlords, it's mostly morale boost.

>>96319028 (OP)
I prefer my healers to be certified profesionals

>>96319945
Agreed.

>>96319028 (OP)
robes

>>96319036
Speaking of stoners, where is my alchemist healer class who will buff and cure, but with the cost side effects?

>>96319028 (OP)
I only care about them being ragingly xenophobic and hate literally everyone and anything that their god disapproves of.
Robes are good for social / intrigue
Armor is better for dungeon delving

>>96325063
>homeopathy, weed, and crystal meth

>>96325063
Pathfinder alchemist - mad scientist archetype. you can even combine with the herbalist archetype if you want a total hippie.

>>96319028 (OP)
A slightly overweight girl with too much makeup and an ankh necklace.

I see it as a experience and veterancy thing. And it can go both ways if you want it to. Hell there can even be some debate in setting between orders of all kinds from religious to secular doctors about the best way to be a healer.

You start out as ether a heavily armored knight type healer or a robed weaking healer and as you level up and gain more experience you switch to robes or armor depending on your orders belief's. If you start out as a robe and then start waring armor after you get stronger that is because your order feels the higher up in your orders hierarchy you get and the more dangerous the missions you have to take you will need more and more protections to survive the oncoming dangers coming for you.

The orders that start with heavy armor and switch to robes do so because the armor interferes with stronger spell casting. And the stronger you get with white magic the less you need weapons and armor to protect yourself with. To the point you are just holding up your hands and projecting light shields and blasting fools with laser beams to protect yourself and big heavy armor and weapons would get in the way of that. When all you need at the end of the day is a holy staff and the sacred robes of your armor. Wearing heavy armor at that high point in your career is seen as being a bit cowardly and weak of will.

And as always other orders and careers will have there own way of doing things that they think make for the best healers of the sick and injured.

>>96325148
PF alchemist has barely any skills/spells that have side effects, and the few that do only target himself. Not to mention that they are basically just -2 to a stat. How riveting.

Also the class is 100% magical, defeating the whole idea of doing, you know, alchemy rather than spellcasting.

I dunno if 2nd edition alchemist is different, and even for first edition what I'm talking about could probably be handled with a feat or archetype that relaxes the infusions per day limitation with some side effect tables.

>>96325101
What so new age witches that surround themselves with gimmicks and tripe like crystal balls and tarot cards while being high out of there minds all the time and trying to get you hooked on hard drugs so you never find out how poor of a lay in the bed they are?

>>96325232
More like methhead that starts out a chill hippie backliner but gets progressively more unhinged and aggressive as she stacks overdose levels.

>>96319028 (OP)
White Mages are arcane spellcasters that can use healing spells. They wear robes, as the mechanisms behind arcane spellcasting are difficult to execute while wearing cumbersome equipment.
Clerics are divine spellcasters, and as such are not restricted by the same mechanisms as arcane spellcasters, enabling them to use whatever armour in which they have sufficient training. However, they are still more likely to use casting implements such as rods and scepters, if they want to maximise the effectiveness of their magic, compared to a Paladin who wouldn't think of going into battle without a weapon.

>>96325232
Homeopathy "works" roughly as well as placebo, but since the class is an "empath" they need the weed to alleviate the guilt of knowing that the healing they provide is just placebo. Meth is just meth, for berserker rages at self and other.
>>96325298
Not *just* methhead, vaguely in control meth pusher!

>>96319861
are those characters from Disciples?

>>96319028 (OP)
>Do you prefer healers to be magic people in robes or magic people in armor?
If I am forced to pick between these two, Robes because D&D style armored clerics is bullshit and stupid, a sacred cow inherited from a remarkably stupid compromise in early D&D where clerics represented priests and other holymen without armor while also representing knightly orders. That these things remained even after paladin was introduced as a full class to represent knightly orders is one of D&Ds many great sins.

Any system where clerics, priests, or other holy workers are clad in armor and wielding martial weapons while simultaneously having full casting is a shit system.

Preferably, healing would be skill based for all classes outside combat, with specific magic classes without armor getting faster and more powerful healing for in combat, with divine martial types getting limited healing. Essentially, doctors and surgeons with the Medicine skill, unarmored clerics/white mages/priests of communal gods, and paladins/champions of good.

>>96325063
PF2e mutagens.

>>96325223
You get feats for the crafting. Admittedly the alchemist is not special in that, but taking them on an alchemist is textbook. Pumping skills a bit is enough to craft a bunch of alchemical items.

Since this was a 1e suggestions, it gets a bit messier than most games. You can be an absolute beast just crafting all the good mundane items but it requires making your magic item first - the amazing tools of manufacture (else your mundane crafting takes 10000 years),

You can go a bit further, but that's more build specific. The easy one is just getting the talent that lets people drink your stuff - also textbook, but mixing potions with poisons, applying extra effects and adding spells to potions is all buried in there.

>>96319036
"Healers" exist so you don't have to give all characters troll regeneration for downtime purposes. Otherwise, you're waiting weeks or months between a day of fighting to recover your booboos. Also helps explain why your entire adventurer career isn't ended from the first real wound you took. Enjoy being gimped for life because you thought having physicians in your setting was gay. It also allows you to add enemies that corrode or subvert the body in more frightening ways. You'd be pretty pissed if your DM told you a single fight with ghouls now has your arms rotting off slowly unless the setting had some way to actually deal with this.

They are not supposed to be for healing midcombat. If you can't get through combats without someone healing, your team is bad and your builds are bad. Or your DM is pushing you too hard. This is video game brainrot at work. Video games only do it because the CPU DM is actually less free to handle dynamic situations than people are. Thus mechanics have to be more abstracted instead of less.

>>96328147
DnD 5e allows you to recover nearly all injuries after 2 hours of rest, making healers completely unecessary

>>96319899
Can you go on about that homebrew system?

>>96319899
Honestly, if people are willing to actually give robe casters enough abilities to fairly compensate for it, there's no reason not to have more archetypes that have magic and no armor. Though I'd also put that the other way around. No reason not to have arcane casters that just wear armor without needing 1000 hoops to do it. You're just going to cast your dumb armor spell at the start of the day and forget it's there anyway or have some other measures that are not-armor.

This issue really is just a weird DNDism.

>>96328191
And that's just giving everyone troll regeneration. I get why it does that, but there's the very issue.

>>96319945
GOOD MORNING SIR

>>96328249
No issue, it cancels the exact problem you brought up without needing a dedicated cuck player

>>96319028 (OP)
WoW style priests in robes are better than D&D clerics that are just paladins but better and not autistic

>>96328232
Thanks for the interest.
It's a very autistic somewhat weeb system that I have been working on for years and I swear it will be finished. Some day. One day.
Half-open half-class-based system with the purpose of protecting niches while also giving the freedom to sidegrade easily and basically come up with your own class. Every class focuses on two main skills.

Priests are focused on divine spellcasting and social skills. The social skills often give bonuses to dealing with non-human entities like spirits, local gods, ghosts. The other abilities focus on spellcasting, like increased healing or being so pure that demons can hardly touch you. They are inspired by local priests, shrine guardians, spiritual shepherds of communities. They have a class ability that allows them to pray for one ally from a distance and give them a good bonus.

The clerics focus on the combat main skills plus divine spellcasting. They often have bonuses for fighting unholy entities, being extra resistant to them, or empowering themselves via divine spells. The divine spellcasting is a bit secondary. They have an ability that allows them to give some minor bonuses to allies close to them by chanting while they swing their weapons around. So they naturally want to stand on the frontline together with other characters.

There are no class-based restrictions on armor, it's based on strength. Technically, nothing stops a priest from wearing armor, if the player wants to put some points into strength or plays a race that starts with a good amount. Nothing technically stopping a cleric from wearing robes either.
You equip spells, either on your armor, weapons or things like rings and amulets. Robes are just barely protective clothes that are good for equipping several spells

>>96328320
Cleric is one of the strongest classes in DnD. This is merely a system issue. Or a skill issue on your part. What is your next objection?

>>96328404
I'm autistic.
Light and nature magic are two out of ten spheres of arcane magic. See why this took years? So, you can play a white mage as an arcane spellcaster, cast light spells that damage, buff (often for increased speed or teleport), blind enemies or heal. It doesn't matter what type of arcane spellcasting class you pick, you can specialize into whatever sphere of magic you want. Build your own white mage.
>>96328244
Whenever I look at a combat system, the first thing I check is how you defend yourself. I find this often way more interesting than what you do for attacking.
As mentioned above, the armor you can wear is based on strength. Class-based armor restrictions feel too artificial to me. There should be organic incentives to pick robes as a spellcaster, not because the game forces you, but because it helps you castign spells. But if you want to don heavy armor? Sure, why not. Suboptimal? Who cares if you have fun doing so and maybe you find a cool and creative way to make it worthwhile.
In this system, armor provides a target number to roll under for dodging + your characters' agility. It also provides damage reduction on hit. Heavier armor has lower target numbers but higher damage reduction. You can also focus on using your shield, parry with your blade, or using shield-spells entirely unrelated to the armors target number, though the damage reduction will still apply if you get hit

>>96328353
Honestly, paladins never should have existed, and clerics should subsume their theme and role. Let them have longswords by default since that's not really a big deal. Job done. Not like clerics weren't already amazing combatants (if built for it) in older editions.

Then make a new archetype that is just a noble version of the fighter. If you keep up appearances (your code) you get cool privileges in any civilized area.

>>96327784
Priests and holy men DID wear armor into battle though

And he made a thread on /v/.
Fuck this board.

>>96328649
Yes, becasue real life holy men lacked the divine power and might bestowed by actual gods. They were martials with good oratory and knowledge (holy book). This has nothing to do with ttrpgs where these priests are bestowed with divine power that can bolster their flesh against arms, entirely disregarding the need for armor.

>>96319028 (OP)
They should be naked. Nudity = purity.

>>96319028 (OP)
I prefer healers to be magic women (female) with big tits

>>96319028 (OP)
Yes.

>>96329172
...

>>96328921
Paladins have holy powers and they still use armor. Almost like armor is just a good thing to use in battle and not dependent on being a knight.

>>96329193
Tell that to wizards

>>96329059
>healer
>that character

Is making characters consume "love nectar" to be healed your magical realm, anon? No judgments, just asking.

>>96319028 (OP)
magic people in armor, or just alchemists/low magic medic types.
Dedicated healers are ok in videogames but feel gay in ttrpgs.

>>96329366
Wizards being unable to wear any kind of armor just for being wizards is retarded.
Just give better armor strength requirements or something instead

>>96328463
>the armor you can wear is based on strength. Class-based armor restrictions feel too artificial to me. There should be organic incentives to pick robes as a spellcaster, not because the game forces you, but because it helps you castign spells
I feel like if a system has a decent mechanic for tracking fatigue and it's effects then there should be some sort of endurance/constitution threshold for different types of armor where being under it gradually makes you more and more exhausted. Armor isn't THAT heavy but make some weedy nerd wear it all day and he's going to get tired, your typical fantasy RPG adventurer wears arnor 16 hours a day. Maybe a system could provide armor and robes as viable options for wizard types by just having the armored choice wear you down faster over the course of a day.
Of course there aren't many systems thst factor fatigue in to spell casting in a good way anyway.

>>96319028 (OP)
Healing is boring, so I prefer to not have healers in my games at all. I'd rather play a game where players are incentivized to avoid taking damage in the first place.

>>96329366
Wizards are using arcane magic, not divine magic. The gods don’t care if you’re wearing armor.

>>96329504
not that guy but I never got the appeal of piss "love nectar" healing love nectar should be sucking titties during a long rest

>>96328353
yeah

>>96329741
What game would that be?

>>96330754
I didn't see that anime, but I think that was the girl's fetish and the man didn't like that.

>>96319028 (OP)
Harry potter/videogame healer
All healing are potions
But all potions needs to be brewed offcombat, and consume time and materials and you better follow the recipe, Longbottom

>>96330754
It's not piss, it's vaginal juices from her being aroused.

Normally I prefer light armor if it looks nice like the pic in >>96328404 or maybe robes over some chainmail, but in the instance of >>96319028 (OP) it's robes all the way. That dwarf hardly resembles a cleric, he could be anything elae for all I know.

>>96319028 (OP)
I have designed my game such that wearing heavier armour takes away some of the stamina points you use to fuel your abilities. Do you want to cast more spells and stay in the backline for protection, or do you want to gear up and block incoming damage with your body?

>>96331118
I don't think anon knows themselves.

The reality is simple. Designing a game where HP is a spendable resource is much more stable and easier to design than anything else. You can do other kinds of systems like Storyteller, but that has a nasty habit of inflicting Sudden Death Disease on players because one thing went wrong. Particularly in something like Exalted. Granted, that also makes people properly respectful of combat even against mooks. Screwing around gets you dead fast. So maybe that's not all bad.

Still, I'd think people prefer HP pools for a reason. Worse come to worse, your sudden and violent warning shit got real lets you hobble away from your error.

>>96328320
Dumb faggot

>>96328649
>Priests and holy men DID wear armor into battle though
Priestly caste men were not warriors by trade.

>>96328512
Kys

>>96336260
No, but D&D is a combat game, so if we're going to be using Clerics as an example of someone who goes into battle alongside the party, we should be using the examples of clergy who actually fought, and those who did wore armor.

>>96336285
Clerics in D&D should be closer to real life saints since they can literally invoke miracles. A saint is generally not a warrior, save for special cases.

>>96336285
>we should be using the examples of clergy who actually fought
And they did so with only arms and armor because they were martials without spellcasting. Using real life examples in this case is retarded because the class is foremost about divine spells and divine powers, of which real life has no examples beyond fiction. If we are using real life examples, clerics shouldn't be able to cast spells in combat because the real ones didn't either.

Its either focus in on the class thematics and how they tie into specific game niches, ala casters and martials or its replicating real life examples. You don't get to mix them and make an overpowered class capable of martial exploits and full casting. Pick one.

And any cope about how D&D did it is utter retardation, its the exact example everyone has of how the class as designed from 3e onwards is simply bad.

>>96336297
Clerics in D&D are a combination of tropes that include crusaders and vampire hunters (extended to all undead). The original original cleric was an NPC antagonist meant to be like if Van Helsing was a Templar.

>>96329562
goblin slayer. not only does it have a fatigue etc tracker, which means you want to fight smarter, efficiently, in as few rounds as possible, and not be doing a gorillion fights, BUT armour can also have the HEAVY property, which is followed by X and Y, if your strength + endurance =/= or > X, each time you gain a point of fatigue, you gain another as well, and if your strength +endurance =/= or > Y, then you use the armour's stated debuff to your dodge and move. if you are strong and enduring enough you can wear the armour without incurring extra fatigue, and half the effect of wearing it on dodge and move.

>>96328512
>Let them have longswords by default since that's not really a big deal.
When the class was created, if you look at loot tables, it was, in fact, a big deal.
And it's a good thing that this legacy remained because it helped itemization and other aspects of game design even beyond RPGs.

In hand of people like you everything would be flat and horrible.

>>96319028 (OP)
I have both. "Cleric" as you know them, but only medium armor proficiency, and "priest" a slightly-modified cloistered-cleric. I lean towards preferring priests, thematically, but then you have two nerds in your typical party, whereas a cleric is partway between nerd and fighter, which rounds things out better.

>>96337109
>And they did so with only arms and armor because they were martials without spellcasting
You can't know that. They thought their prayers worked miracles, and yet they still went into battle with arms and armor.

>>96328249
The alternate solution is using HP not as "meat points", but a "countdown to real injury". Cosmere RPG does that where dropping to 0 HP makes you roll on an table to determine what injury you get and how long it lasts. You can get back up at the end of the next turn and keep fighting, but without healing you stand up with 1 HP and risk immediately being dropped with a new injury. The injury roll also gets a malus for every existing injury, so if you're being reckless you'll quickly go from having a twisted leg for 1d6 days to permanently crippled and then dead.

>>96343117
>You can't know that.
Yes, we can. There is no magic in real life. There were no miracles of faith that happened on these battlefields. They went into battle with arms and armor because they knew on some level that their faith wont protect them and wont stop the enemy. They prayed to god for protection, but they knew it wasn't going to truly protect them.

>>96346202
>There is no magic in real life. There were no miracles of faith that happened on these battlefields
There was to them. They went into battle knowing they could use magic and faith to protect themselves...and they still wore armor and weapons anyways. Hell, even when God straight up told people that they would be guaranteed to win a battle in the Bible, they still wore armor and weapons to the battle.

>>96328444
They're strongest when they don't focus on healing at all, so point proven.

>>96346218
The clerics, priests, rabbis, and others weren't out on the battlefield fighting. Those were the soldiers and warriors. You're desperately trying to find some way to keep saying that clerics should keep their magic and martial prowess by referencing history, despite history having those rabbis, clerics, priests, and others either commanding the armies, being on the sidelines, or not being actual priests but merely having church titles.

Hell, you even put a picture of a fucking knight, aka a paladin, for your post.

Clerics are a shitty stupid sacred cow mishmash of priests and knights that needs severe overhauling, and no matter how much of a temper tantrum and attempts to reference real history, they were never the same thing and served completely different battlefield roles. Gygax fucked up, and D&D suffered and suffers because of it.

>>96346280
>The clerics, priests, rabbis, and others weren't out on the battlefield fighting.
Except when they were. Then they wore armor.

Besides, you're contradicting yourself. You say that Clerics wore armor because they couldn't do miracles...but then when people could do miracles you're claiming they still wore armor because they were 'warriors'. So either way, you're admitting that working miracles has nothing to do with the decision for someone to wear armor or not.

>>96340051
> The original original cleric was an NPC antagonist meant to be like if Van Helsing was a Templar.
I think people get too caught up in the name of the class.
Which is a sick ass concept.

>>96346331
>but then when people could do miracles
Ive said quite plainly they never did miracles. There were no miracles. They wore armor because they knew on some level their god wouldn't protect them. Your reading comprehension is shit, and I blame you being retarded for it.

We absolutely should not be referencing real life for how a class that is steeped in religious fiction should work. Instead, we should reference the religious fiction and myths, the unarmed and unarmored miracle worker who calls on the gods for miracles. The priests of ancient myth, the wonder workers who served their gods.

Bring some fucking example of actual priests going to battle in armor and weapons. If they are so prevalent, you should be able to show it easily.

>>96346331
>Except when they were
Give me 10 instances where priests went to the battlefield as soldiers.

>>96346398
>They wore armor because they knew on some level their god wouldn't protect them.
So your idea of a Paladin is someone who doesn't really believe in faith who knows that they don't have the gods on their side? A coward who wears armor because they don't trust their gods?

That sounds like shit, why would I ever want to play that?

>Bring some fucking example of actual priests going to battle in armor and weapons
>>96346418
Bishop Odo of Bayeux
Bishop Adhémar of Le Puy
Bishop Anthony Bek of Durham
Archbishop Baldwin of Forde
Bishop Henry le Despenser
Bishop Heahmund of Sherborne
Bishop Albert of Riga
Guru Gobind Singh
Shi‘a Imam Husayn ibn Ali
Shaolin Buddhist Monks
Sōhei
Judas Maccabeus
Benkei

>>96346450
Not a priest when he went to war.
Not a priest when he went to war.
Not a priest when he went to war.
You failed the first three and I can already see you don't understand what a priest is so I'm not bothering with the rest and we can safely disregard them as false.

This drama feels a bit forced and disingenuous. There were a few bishops that were known to engage in war, and then you get knightly orders like the templars, which are the proper inspiration for the clerics (at this point).
>but-but-but these were not priests!
No, they were knights and regular soldiers, working and fighting for a religious order, and being more pious than the regular mercenary (at least that's the ideal).
Other examples would be the Sikhs or the Sohei. Or any muslim officially engaging in a Jihad.

>>96346469
>"You stop being clergy if you go to war!"
lmao, you're really desperate now.

>>96346472
Templars are obvious inspirations for paladins, anon.

>>96346489
Didn't say that whatsoever, you failed again. That's two strikes, get a third and you lose the argument.

>>96346490
The obvious inspirations for paladins were the knights of the round table. Knights that were following knightly codes and were of upmost moral standards, which includes piety.

>>96346490
No, Paladins use holy powers, Templars never had holy powers.

>>96346521
Incorrect, it was the templars.

>>96346472
Ah yes, Punjabi cults and niche weeb history. The trve sovl of DnD.

>>96346550
Okay, provide the source.

>>96346568
Of?

>>96346575
Templars being the inspiration, retard.

>>96346581
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbzjyQoD4w
Done, now start making your excuses.

>>96346601
So then by your own admittance, Clerics must also be able to wear armor given what their own inspiration is. I accept your concession.

>The development of the Dungeons & Dragons Paladin, first introduced in the original Greyhawk supplement, was heavily influenced by the fictional character Holger Carlson from Poul Anderson's novel Three Hearts and Three Lions, which was in turn based on the epic poetry of the chansons de geste.[2][3]:88–89 Gary Gygax himself stated the class was actually drawn from the paladins of Charlemagne, Arthurian legend, and the historical code of chivalry.[4]
No idea what that faggot video has to do with anything, though. Not gonna watch it.

>>96346581
Templar is a prestige class for Paladins and shares their class features.

>>96346611
Clerics aren't actually inspired from anything in particular, just a vague desire to have a healer class.

>>96346450
>Bishop Odo of Bayeux
Nobleman given title of Bishop for political reasons. Martial. Never performed a miracle. Crusader
>Bishop Adhémar of Le Puy
Actual Bishop, never performed a miracle. Excellent warrior. Fighter with priestly title. No miracles. Crusader
>Archbishop Baldwin of Forde
Tutor of Religion, given the archbishop title by King, no actual evidence of fighting, only that he led a group. Died soon after from disease. No miracles. Crusader
>Bishop Henry le Despenser
Nobleman, Bishop, suppressed a revolt. No miracles.
>Bishop Heahmund of Sherborne
Bishop, warrior who died fighting against Danes. No miracles.
>Bishop Albert of Riga
Bishop, led the conversion of pagans during Crusade. Not a warrior, no miracles.
>Guru Gobind Singh
Sikh warrior poet philosopher. No miracles.
>Shi‘a Imam Husayn ibn Ali
Grandson of Muhammad, warrior. No miracles.
>Shaolin Buddhist Monks
Renowned for their martial arts, generally don't wear armor, are the base inspiration for the Monk class. Really? Referencing them?
>Sōhei
The soldier class of Buddhist monk temples. Warriors. Closer to paladin than cleric. No miracles.
>Judas Maccabeus
Rabbi, started the Maccabean Revolt, warrior. No miracles.
>Benkei
A sohei warrior. No miracles.

>>96346611
All you've done is find a few clergymen in real life, all warriors without any miracles, who wore armor because they were warriors. If this is the inspiration for the cleric class, then removing their spellcasting is what should be done. Afer all, we must mimic the real life inspirations.

>>96346625
>Clerics aren't actually inspired from anything in particular
Wrong

>"Actually the cleric was based losely on Bishop Odo, brother of Duke William of Normandy, the fictitional Friar Tuck, and a religious proscription against the shedding of blood."
>"Remember that I modeled the cleric class on Bishop Odo and Friar Tuck...both able combatants."

Also for the Paladins:
>"The paladin was likewise loosely drawn from the Paladins of Charlemagne and the Code of Chivalry."

>>96346628
>Never performed a miracle
Irrelevant, the Cleric is based upon them all the same. The Templars never performed a miracle either.

>>96346639
>Actually the cleric was based losely
Kind of proving the point, anon. No real inspiration, not actually based on anything, just a vague idea.
>and a religious proscription against the shedding of blood
Yeah so like I said, it was just a desire to have a healer class.

>>96346648
>Irrelevant, the Cleric is based upon them all the same. The Templars never performed a miracle either.
Exactly, which is why we should remove spellcasting from them. No miracles, no spell casting. It makes perfect sense. Since they arent based on any character who actually performs miracles, they don't get spellcasting.

>>96346653
>No real inspiration
Same for the Paladin.

Glad we agree.

>>96346653
>it was just a desire to have a healer class.
Retard, the 'shedding of blood' was referring to the restriction to carrying a mace.

>>96346656
You already have that, it's called a Fighter.

>>96346658
Except the Paladin has already been proven to be clearly inspired by the Knights Templar. Otherwise yeah I accept your concession.

>>96346668
>You already have that, it's called a Fighter.
I know, the cleric can be a fighter subclass who gets a religious title and leads a congregation. Maybe some skill ranks in religious knowledge. But they definitely don't get spellcasting.

>>96346668
Anon maces still shed blood.
And nah it's very clear from the design that Clerics are meant to be healsluts first and foremost, it's why they're so uninspired.

>>96346671
>Except the Paladin has already been proven to be clearly inspired by the Knights Templar
Wrong again.
>"The paladin was likewise loosely drawn from the Paladins of Charlemagne and the Code of Chivalry."
>loose drawn
No real inspiration, not actually based on anything, just a vague idea.

>>96346686
>Wrong again.
Waiting for a rebuttal of points brought up. Sorry Gygax's mewling is irrelevant as it doesn't contradict the evidence posted ITT, if anything it just adds to it since the Knights Templar were a key point in the shaping of chivalry as a concept.

>>96346682
Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>96346683
>"One of the primary limitations to the cleric class or related classes has been the prohibition of edged weopons. This was based, to my knowledge, upon the prohibition among medieval priests against spilling Christian blood (I don't think they had a problem with spilling infidel blood). I believe the Pope Julius was known to charge into battle with mace and beat opponents to death."
Tell that to Gygax.

>>96346694
I mean you can have whatever fanfiction you want to have but for the purpose of an actual inspiration only what the creator of the thing says matters.

>>96346695
>Tell that to Gygax.
And this changes... What exactly? The proscription against shedding blood is generalized and inherently emphasizes nonviolence. So yes, Clerics are meant to be healsluts.

>>96346702
>the creator
Well Gygax isn't the creator of the current editions (if I recall he hated everything that wasn't directly made by him anyways) so moot point as you've rendered all of your evidence useless by self admission.

>>96346716
Correct, and the current Paladins are secular so the Templars cannot be their inspiration.

>>96346695
>Have you tried not playing D&D?
Yes.

>>96346695
>Tell that to Gygax.
Gods does D&D suffer for his remarkably bad design decisions. A good game dev he was not.

>>96346721
>Correct, and the current Paladins are secular
Which re-emphasizes the point of why they go well with Templars who were mostly RINOs (religious in name only).

>>96346712
>and inherently emphasizes nonviolence
Not when you're beating someone to death it doesn't.

>>96346727
Beating someone to death means shedding blood so that's incompatible.

>>96346733
Not according to Gygax.

>>96346745
Please find me the quote where Gygax says "Beating people to death doesn't shed any blood."

>>96346750
>">"One of the primary limitations to the cleric class or related classes has been the prohibition of edged weopons. This was based, to my knowledge, upon the prohibition among medieval priests against spilling Christian blood (I don't think they had a problem with spilling infidel blood). I believe the Pope Julius was known to charge into battle with mace and beat opponents to death."
>"The priest is dedicated to a deity, or deities, and at the same time a skilled combatant at arms. The cleric can be of any alignment (q.v.) save (true) neutral (see Druid hereafter) alignment, depending upon that of the deity the cleric serves. All clerics have certain holy symbols which aid them and give
power to their spells. All are likewise forbidden to use edged and/or pointed weapons which shed blood. All clerics have their own spells, bestowed upon them by their deity for correct and diligent prayers and deeds."
>"However, did you ever feel it was a bit unrealistic to extend this to all priests, including evil priests, not to mention the general concept that it was/is ok for a priest to bash an opponent to death (somehow without spilling blood) but not to use edged weapons?"
>"In seeking clear class distinctions I did indeed proscribe m-us from the use of the sword, and clerics too. This made the archetypes distinct, balanced the character classes, and worked well enough for game purposes, methinks. As for unrealistic, heh! Let's talk about magic and monsters in that term... Actually, when initially writing the cleric class, I did not contemplate much interest in PCs of evil sort. Of course I often had my evil cleric NPCs using proscribed weapons, so I am not all bunched up about changes in the matter--save for game balance. If something new is allowed, then some compensating restriction is likely in order."

>>96346780
>CTRL+F "beating people"
>No results
>Glance at the text
>It's directly implied that not shedding blood
is generally incompatible with beating someone to death
Thanks for proving me right I guess, unless that was your intent all along.

>>96346795
See >>96346780
>beat opponents to death

>>96346937
And he doesn't say it doesn't shed blood, but the opposite. Congratulations, you played yourself.

>>96346945
>And he doesn't say it doesn't shed blood
He also says he's fully aware that 'realistically' beating someone to death would shed blood and he doesn't care. Beat them to death anyways.

>>96346964
>He also says he's fully aware that 'realistically' beating someone to death would shed blood
Yeah that's what I said, trouble reading my post?
Anyways like said, the Cleric has no real inspiration, it's just "I needed a healer for gameplay"

>>96346969
>the Cleric has no real inspiration
Same as the Paladin. Who cares?

>>96346975
This thread has already conclusively proven the Paladin does though. It's just the Cleric who lacks in any analogue or identity, as befits a video gamey class.

>>96346981
>This thread has already conclusively proven the Paladin does though
Quite the opposite, Gygax himself said that the Paladin was only loosely based on the Paladins of Charlemagne.

>>96346986
Quite the opposite, we have had quotations, videos, and admissions from other anons as to what inspired Paladins.

>>96346986
>only loosely
According to what?

>>96347005
According to Gygax himself.

>>96346988
The quotations supported that Gygax only loosely based the Paladins on Charlemagne's Paladins. There were no other quotes to support otherwise.

>>96347013
Okay, quote him

>>96347018
>The quotations supported that Gygax
You already wrote him off as he's no longer the creator of the current editions and irrelevant.

>>96319028 (OP)
Depends if a game/setting has paladins.

If it has paladins, then White Mages should not have armor or martial weapons.

If it does not have paladins, then Clerics should have armor and martial weapons.

>>96347019
>"The paladin was likewise loosely drawn from the Paladins of Charlemagne and the Code of Chivalry."

>>96347034
Don't see "only" anywhere in there.

>>96347024
And there's no evidence to support that the inspiration for modern Paladins is the Templars. If there is, quote it.

>>96347043
Evidence was already provided, waiting on a refutation of it aside from butthurt denialism.

>>96347034
Anon, everyone can just scroll up to >>96346616
and see that you are lying.
What the fuck is your malfunction? Just leave the thread.

>>96347035
If you're going to take an absence of evidence of proof then I can say anything and have it be true.

>>96347051
>Evidence was already provided
Source?
>>96347058
>ary Gygax himself stated the class was actually drawn from the paladins of Charlemagne, Arthurian legend, and the historical code of chivalry
Do you lack reading comprehension? That proves me right. The Paladins were loosely based on the Paladins of Charlemagne, not the Templars you fucking idiot.

>>96347043
There is tho
SM: What other science fiction and fantasy authors influenced the creation of the original Dungeons and Dragons?

MM: Fritz Leiber was definitely a huge influence. He was a gamer himself, attended some of the early GenCon game conventions, and had his world of Nehwon adapted as an official D&D setting. Robert E. Howard also played a role, as did Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith.

Writers like Poul Anderson (trolls, paladins), Roger Zelazny (planar travel and worlds), and Michael Moorcock (law and chaos as opposed forces) all played big roles.

And Poul Anderson wrote about the Knights Templar, specifically in Death And The Knight.

I'll accept a concession.

>>96347072
Proof?

>>96347067
>Source?
Scroll up.

>>96347063
If you're going to [Things that I didn't do]
Alrighty, strike three you're out.

>>96347080
Of? Or are you asking because you're mad?

>>96347085
>Posts source that proves me right
I accept your concession.

>>96347095
The source saying that the Knights Templar inspired Paladins... Is proving you right?
Ok, glad you agree with me now then lol.

>>96347094
Of the quote you idiot. I don't see anything saying that Gygax got his inspiration from Death and The Knight.

>>96344625
That is actually how 5e does it as well if you read the damage description from the DMG. Only your very last hit point is a debilitating meat injury that takes you down. Every point before that is an abstraction of near misses, bruises, scrapes, superficial cuts, strains, sprains, and fatigue from just barely avoiding or blocking hits. A character reduced to 1 HP is battered and bruised and tired, but not substantially injured in any way.

>>96347108
>Of the quote
That's from an interview with Mike Mearls, nobody is talking about Gygax as he's not even relevant to the current editions. Ysomad?

>>96347105
>The source saying that the Knights Templar inspired Paladins
You never provided one. You only provided a quote showing that the Paladins of Charlemagne LOOSELY inspired the Paladins. So thank you for once again agreeing with me. You have been very helpful repeatedly proving me right every time.

>>96347119
>You never provided one
Yeah I did >>96347072
I accept your concession.

>>96347118
So not only do you not have a quote from Gygax, you don't even have a quote from Mike Mearls. Sad. But once again I accept your concession, thank you for proving my point for me.

>>96347134
>Post quote
>Anon proceeds to get fuming, absolutely raging mad and scream that the quote doesn't exist
Kek'd, well that's another win for me then. See you next thread!

>>96347131
>Posts some rando
Sorry anon, but you'll need an actual source first. Some random gibberish you made up doesn't work.

>>96347147
>Fails to provide a single quote
>Gets butthurt and rage-quits the conversation
Thank you for conceding to me again!

I don't remember Templars having to follow a romanticized chivalric code like Paladins before 3e did.

>>96347067
He never said "loosely".

>>96328921
Spells have been limited in every edition of D&D because even they are not stupid enough to give players infinite spells with no drawbacks.
>"Hey God, can I have some armour spells?"
>"So you can fortify someone's ability to withstand damage in an emergency, right?"
>"No, so I can give myself basic defence."
>"Wear some armour you dipshit, be more efficient with the spells I'm giving you, not wearing armour means I'm bestowing fewer spells for you to actually do your job."

>>96347230
See >>96346639

>>96347288
Where is the source on that?

>>96319028 (OP)
I think forcing spellcasters to wear robes is stupid anti-naturalist design. Casters, whether divine or arcane, would obviously want to wear armor.

You have to make up "oh, armor doesn't let you cast spells, it reduces flexibility and makes it hard to do the arm movements." Really? So the fighter gets a to-hit bonus when he goes naked, because he has better flexibility? No? The "flexibility" only exists for spellcasters?

>>96319028 (OP)
I prefer them to be beautiful priestesses in solar bright robes or pretty goth witches in lunar, revealing outfits.

>>96347113
Yes, but there's no actual mechanical consequence to dropping to 0 as long as you succeed at a death save or an ally tosses Healing Word your way. And the lack of consequence is + presumed wolverine healing half the reason why autists have spent a decade whining about 5e's health system.

>>96336251
Sorry Mr. Stoner but your preferred playstyle is worthless

>>96352471
>why autists have spent a decade whining about 5e's health system

Way longer than that, and not restricted to 5e. The debate about what Hit Points "actually" are/represent has been going on since at least 3e, and probably long before that. Not helped by inconsistent mechanics which allowed a character to survive a fall from low orbit if he does enough pushups and situps, but still dies instantly to a Phantasmal Killer. Whatever theory anyone would come up with for what Hit Points "really" represent, there would be *something* in the RAW contradicting that theory. Really they're just a game mechanic that you're not supposed to think too hard about.

>>96336260
>>96328649
All true, but you guys are forgetting the most important part. In real life they were neither magicians nor doctors.