>Sticky + pipe combo does a guaranteed 150+ damage in 1.5 seconds in close proximity fights, 200+ damage if you aren't shit, is capable of one shotting 8/9 classes, is infinitely more practical, easier, and dangerous than a Sniper headshot especially as the level of skill rises
>For some reason the community still thinks Sniper is the strongest class in the game

>>716060101 (OP)
>tf2 in 2025
grow up, man baby.

>troon fortress

>>716060101 (OP)
I've never seen a Demo player under 5000 hours understand that this should be your go-to combo to start any fight. It's either they start it off sticky spamming or they start it off pipe spamming

>>716060217
>>716060271
bottrannies lost

snipers are never the strongest class. They're just the least fun to engage with.

demo is slowish and shoots slow. also wtf is wrong with demo in the op?!

>>716060101 (OP)
Sniper balancing discourse the past 3ish years have probably been the most braindead discussions I've ever seen come from this community since I started playing in 2014. It's so bad. It feels like nobody actually knows what the actual fuck they're talking about 90% of the time, and the ones that do almost always derive to conclusions that don't even align to what they're saying. Moments like these make me wish that player improvement was more advertised in the game from the very start.

>>716060101 (OP)
the difference is that "close proximity" part, both players have to get within their effective range.
sniper can one shot you from anywhere as long as he has LoS (which on most maps covers all flanks to the sniper and the objective)

>>716061309
I'd strongly argue that Spy and Pyro are way more unfun.

>>716061514
Demo at his effective range is like 2x more powerful than a Sniper in his. I'd ra

>>716061616
and, again, sniper is a problem of "infinite effective range with one shot damage"
this is a universal problem across all games with a sniper rifle.

>>716061514
Would rather take a headshot from Somalia than have me and my engineer's nest behind me get nuked to kingdom come by a Demo off a single sticky jump

>>716060101 (OP)
Difference is that Demo has way more counterplay, so a variety of classes can deal with him and one really good Demo won't ruin the game.

This is not true with Sniper, which is why he's the class that autistic trannies dump 8000 hours into.

>>716061779
Learn movement, if you can't spare part of your attention to one of the 9 classes in the game then you're just ass.

>>716061543
>One class that's easily countered with some awareness
>Another that had a gorillion counters to afterburn and only has maximum lethality and annoyance in near melee range

Honestly just assuming you're a sniper main at this point.

>>716061935
a good enough sniper doesnt care about how you move, thats the problem.

>>716060101 (OP)
Movement hard counters that combo althoughbeit.

>>716060101 (OP)
>t. aimbot sniper main

>>716061983
They just are. If I'm against a good Spy, Sniper, and Pyro, the ones that would get me malding the most do not include Sniper. The Spy would have me paranoid as fuck forcing me to check everywhere and everything for his presence, the Pyro would keep me chipped with afterburn and would either statcheck me with w + m1 or airblast my ass away from killing him and/or his team while there's nothing I can do about it, the Sniper however no matter how good he is can be dealt with if I use my movement right and avoid areas of engages that he can hit clean and easy shots on. I'm basing these off of pure annoyance though.

>>716060101 (OP)
Demo have counterplay and need get in range, snipers can be downright untouchable in lot of scenarios.

>>716062031
Lol? Not every good sniper is Jesus Christ behind the screen brother.

>>716062409
You right, they cheat, meaning your positioning really means jackshit.

>>716062409
snipers have had two decades to perfect their aim, there's literally nothing you can do against a good sniper in a 1v1
>inb4 well they spent two decades on aim they DESERVE to stomp the server!
problem is that your still genuinely does not matter. you could be five times better than a god sniper and still eat shit with no chance for recourse.

>>716061543
Both actually have to reach me and I get to engage with them in return.

Sniper feels like getting hit by a random crocket, but it's his main gimmick. He's supposed to feel random and unpredictable and kill you instantly with no counterplay and that's not a good thing.
He's also not very important to the balance of the game, which is even worse. He's not even a necessary evil.

>>716060101 (OP)
Soldier is the most OP class in the game. Raise rocket-jump self damage and watch them become balanced.

>>716062553
>you could be five times better than a god sniper and still eat shit with no chance for recourse
We're being retarded right now

150-450 damage at infinite range vs 100 damage from directly aiming a projectile

>>716060323
why would you ever rely on them being near your sticky if you're at the very least skilled enough to land two pipes in a row

>>716062806
It's all map dependent. You can sneak up behind a sniper on someone other than spy, but good luck doing it if there's an engie. At that point, you just have to wait until the nest is down before you get a chance to engage him. Guess what class I main

>>716063080
Because placing a sticky, switching to primary, shooting a pipe, and then pressing m2 is both faster and applies more damage, you literal retard. See what I'm saying?

>>716060101 (OP)
>Soldigger hands typed this

>>716062409
Cope and a crutch. They still have the capability, no other class does. Sniper rifle = bad game design.

The Razorback was a terrible mistake. Made the sniper have no counter, and removed the Spy from the game.

>>716063169
No it isn't, you're still being retarded. Not only do you not understand how powerful Demoman is in a game where two teams collide to fight for objectives, but to think Sniper is 5x stronger than what has been and continues to be class with by far the highest DPS in the game is unbelievably fucking retarded.

>>716063080
To land pipes, you need to read your opponents movement better than they can fool you. If you can land two pipes consistently, then you aren't playing against good enough players

>>716062806
prove me wrong, then.
prove that you can kill a god sniper in a 1v1 when he can see every path to him.

>>716061935
>how to counter sniper
>just hop around and pray he misses his shot on you, your entire defense is hoping hes bad at the game
Thats not a counter.

Buff the Pyro to make him viable.

>>716063464
>1v1

>>716063408
My bad for not saying that I wasn't the author

>>716063314
Razorback means jackshit, you get a kill or two then immediately die to his teammates or sentry nearby.

Not mention that spy need go all the way back to kill that cunt when frontlines have far more important targets, also lot of maps let sniper sit on spawn

>>716063531
thats being generous because usually you have to fight through the entire enemy team to get to the god sniper thats getting a kill every 4 seconds.

>>716063504
The fact his flamethrower is bugged to do like half the dps he should and valve were okay with it irks me
how did they do a stellar job creating the game yet have abysmal maintenance for it

>>716063494
Has been a pretty effective one in every pub and competitive lobby ever.

>>716063568
>then immediately die to his teammates or sentry nearby.
How are my teammates going to kill the sniper when they can not even reach him? He's sitting on the other side of the map, and can click your head in less than a second.

>>716063624
i remember back in 2015, the 2fort battlements.
every other game you couldnt walk on them because there was a god sniper on the other battlements shooting people as soon as they dared to show their head hitbox.

>>716060101 (OP)
Always has been

Snipers should simply be forced to play with gamepads, without aim assist. Return the sniper balance to when valve expected sniper to be balanced by players aim not being that great lol

>>716063810
sniper cope images are always funny, here's a fixed version.

>>716063594
Yeah. Demoman can actually do that.

>>716064096
>Demoman and Soldier in moderate reward

>>716060101 (OP)
sniper is the strongest in 1v1, demomen are the strongest in team fights.

>>716064319
read the image.

>>716064096
OBVIOUSLY scout is the most respectable class. It's ironic that he's one of the most disrespectful characters

>>716064096
>>716064395
Oh god.

All you need to fix Sniper is to give him mild damage falloff. He'll still be extremely powerful, and he'll still be extremely safe, he just won't be both at once.

nobody plays stock demo, let alone knows how to sticky+pipe combo

>>716064564
>Nobody play stock demo
>Stock demo is literally 90% of loadouts

Iron bomber used be better but got fixed, now is just sidegrade.

>>716064787
I only ever see majority-stock demos (melee variable, pipe launcher variable with Iron Bomber) and full demoknights, eeeeevery once in a blue moon I'll see a Loch n' Load but usually only for sentry smashing, and sometimes a pubstomper with a Loose Cannon

>>716064787
>>Stock demo is literally 90% of loadouts
since when and according to who?
Did you forget that every tard who plays tf2 thinks demoman is the melee class?

>>716060101 (OP)
>Sniper is a strong class but is weakened severely during teamfights due to his DPS that pales in comparison to that of powerclasses + Scout, this makes it so that his missed shots are more punishing and the ones that are landed less rewarding for the team.
This was common knowledge back in like 2015 and is common knowledge still for players with heightened game knowledge, what happened?

>>716065089
more of his counters got nerfed during the MYM-JI era and general sniper skill went up, drastically reducing his hit/miss ratio.

>be heavy
>see a sniper targeting me
>jerk my mouse up and spam E to make my model's hand cover my head
>keep doing it until you can hear or see the sniper shoot and miss your head
>shoot him back while he's reloading, if your own sniper didn't already pick him off

sniper mains don't want you to know this trick but literally just jerk your mouse randomly and you CANNOT be headshot

>>716065089
Oh no instead of dealing 450 dmg he did ONLY 150, and probably killed whatever with machina penetration

Literally unplayable.

>>716065480
>keep doing it until you can hear or see the sniper shoot and miss your head
sounds good, doesnt work.

>>716065349
>SNIPERS JUST GOT BETTER!!!!
Doesn't change a thing to what I said, also the counters to Sniper are just as effective as ever, like for example, choosing to pick Demoman/Soldier over playing Sniper at all.

>>716062216
the "every sniper is aimbotting" cope is the dumbest of all because it literally proves the class is only 'overpowered' if you literally cheat

"dude this isn't fair, i'm racing against joe and joe is wearing blue shoes"
"what's wrong with blue shoes?"
"joe does steroids"
"....so the steroids are the fault, not the shoes?"
"no but joe is wearing blue shoes that's why he won.. it's the shoes..."

>>716065585
until you realize that snipers can consistently hit flying targets now

>>716065535
yeah it does against non-aimbots. doesn't matter how skilled you are you can't predict jerky randomness or make your bullet penetrate the model's hand

>>716065676
nope, still doesnt work.

>>716065480
So you aren't actually shooting or helping your team, and the Sniper removed you from play already.

>>716065627
I love how so many of you are just come to a collective agreement that Snipers today are just generally better and more skilled when I promise it's the complete opposite. GOOD snipers a decade ago were infinitely better than the good ones you see today with 99% of the reason being the competitive scene wasn't nearly as fucking dead as it is now.

>>716065743
cope sniperfag

>>716065480
>Doing random shit instead of actually playing the game.

Retard, not mention that sniper can just click you again.

>>716065745
>>716065856
there's also the fact that while you're doing that, the enemy team will look at you confused for a second before killing you since you're not paying attention (and if you try to fire back the sniper can headshot you)

My favorite sniper argument is the "but what if everything just stacks perfectly in his favor?" argument

>It's no fair sniper can shoot me from far away
>Rape him as any mobility class like a scout or soldier, literally just run and shoot he's a weak twink with no way to defend himself from close up
>But what if he's really really good and shoots me first?
>Then he deserves the kill, go from behind
>But what if he's surrounded by teammates who are also good?
>Backstab him
>But what if he's wearing the razorback
>Scorch shot him
>But what if he's ALSO wearing the darwin's AND razorback and magically also has an SMG to shoot me
>That's not possi- ok fine, nevermind, just use your gun
>SPY HAS G-G-G-G-G-GUN!?
>Yes
>But his engineer is building there!
>Snipe him from afar
>But he has a medic!
>So he has really good skills, helpful organized teammates, knows how to play the game and has faster reflexes than you
>YEAH IT'S NOT FAIR, SO WHAT, IF HE HAS ALL THAT HE JUST GEEEEEEEEEETS TO WIN?
>Yes
>How dare you

>>716066120
personally my favorite is the simple and elegant
>sniper can't be countered he's too easy
>go sniper, sniper counters sniper
>no i can't play sniper it's too hard

>>716066120
its not "perfectly in his favor" its literally the average game lmao.

>>716066265
This is gonna shock you but every game with two teams is gonna have one team be better and win
All of those things are in a team's favor, it's TEAM fortress 2, not "me and my kunai fortress 2"

Spy is unplayable. Everyone spychecks EVERYTHING all the time.

>>716066339
tell that to the sniper with a 56 killstreak that hasnt once interacted with his team (and yet requires a whole dedicated push to kill)

I'm a heavy main. I play objective and help my team push. That is all.

>>716065809
Decent snipers back then were fresh off their fucking ESEA 6s raping the entire pub as a warmup whereas decent snipers now are coming off their 24/7 2fort server to sweat their nuts off to get that Badwater pub top frag.

It's every fucking day with you assholes

>>716060101 (OP)
This post was made by a dunning kruger ridden non invite player
>>716061431
This too
>>716063810
Sniper's only true counter is sniper, and even then it's flawed because blu's spawn time is way faster on most game modes

>>716066515
Give the Spy a fireproof vest, and a headshot-proof helmet, and then we'll talk.

>>716060101 (OP)
>have to get close to do that damage first
>clicks your head while hiding behind a box, a sentry and the rest of my team
Wanka.

>>716066489
>It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaair he just gets to win because he's so skilled at the game?
Yes, commie bro
That's how vidyer video game game works

The myth of the sniper who can sit "in spawn" or some other magical place where he isn't found ever (barring exploits of course which applies to any class) and just get consistent shots doing nothing is fake, a sniper always needs to avoid being found by that angry guy after he killed him, being in places where he's in danger, moving along with the map or going out to find targets

>>716066669
>The myth of the sniper who can sit "in spawn" or some other magical place where he isn't found ever (barring exploits of course which applies to any class) and just get consistent shots doing nothing is fake, a sniper always needs to avoid being found by that angry guy after he killed him, being in places where he's in danger, moving along with the map or going out to find targets

Then you woke up and keep sniping on the same spot for hours, trying to not fall asleep again.

>>716066604
HE LITERALLY HAS THEM
HE HAS THE SPYCICLE AND THE DEADRINGER YOU DUMB RETARD LMAO

>>716066669
thing is that you can be several times player than the sniper, hell you could be the literal #1 confirmed player in the game, and a 'decent' sniper can still shut you down consistently because he can kill you before you're able to enter effective range.

>>716066604

Literally all complaints about sniper only take into account what is theoretically possible to do by a machine and not how humans play, sniper is the class with the tightest skill-to-win correlation unlike someone like Pyro who eats ass a lot but also does a lot of damage or someone like Heavy who is pretty safe and his output is massive

Sniper is played by people and those people are fallable
"But he CAN-" But he doesn't

>>716061543
>picks the two worst classes in the game to find unfun to deal with
You sound like a bad player.

>>716066953
those people hit 9/10 shots now so...

>>716066604
Bro are you actually retarded? Try playing the game you claim to play now and then

>>716066953
1 hour of learning Demo/Soldier is more worthwhile for both yourself and your team than 10 hours of learning Sniper

>>716067050
This thread is full of people that play casual alone only and never see good players, don't even bother replying

>>716067050
You don't see the snipers that fail
You think every sniper hits you because when they don't they're back there getting their asshole embigenned by a spy or scout and he's not in your face so you don't see it happen

>>716060101 (OP)
>Why would people be fine with a 2 shot combo dealing more than 150 damage and can be dodged, BUT be against a long range hitscan that deals 150 instant damage
Sniperfags are hopeless.

>>716065603
>said steroids specifically only works particularly well when wearing blue shoes
>to the point that you could cut down on the amount of steroid use by banning the blue shoes

You really picked an analogy that shoots yourself in the dick anon.

>>716066489
Sounds to me like the Sniper is just built different.

Feels like it was just yesterday nobody on their team wanted to see anyone touch Sniper if they wanted to win, its honestly really funny how hard the convo surrounding him as flipped to this extent

>>716067050
>>716067116
Pubs are the way the game is meant to be played.

>>716067140
nobody was talking about the snipers that fail.

>>716067242
they do so in pubs as well.

>>716066604
>>716067246
This is a funny ass thread I'm not gonna lie

>>716067246
so
you're not talking about bad snipers when you say snipers hit 9/10 of their shots? you're only talking about good players?

good players are good at vidya gayum? good players hit shots?
no fucking shitteroni my niggeroni holy fuck

>dude 9/10 people like to get ass fucked by horses
>what? that stat must be wrong
>ugh, clearly i'm not including the people who don't like to get fucked by horses!
u challenged or something?

>>716067435
thats not even remotely close to what i said
this'd be a better analogy,
>dude did you hear that 9/10 people who jump off a cliff die? people need to stop jumping off cliffs!
>what? my friend jumped off a cliff last week and he didnt die
>yeah, but most people do
>no they dont because my friend didnt
>but im not talking about the rare cases where people dont die, im talking about the fact that most people do.
>watch i'll jump off this cliff right now and i wont die! the spikey rocks at the bottom will probably be soft.

This game is ass. Gave my shit away a long time ago. Having to get weapons and other items drop is shit as everyone else runs around with OP shit. And the trannies and bronies are out of fucking control.

nobody asked

Reminder /v/ is shit at games and you should ignore their opinions on video game balance.
Sniper is not even one of the stronger classes in game. Heavy is simply better 99% of time and will net you far more kills. Only true TF2 veterans remember the term "RAGE" heavy.
Good players tend to spam sniper in TF2 because it is far more mechanically interesting compared to braindead explosive classes and even scunt. Same reason spys dominate pubs even tough spy is the worst class in game.

>>716067758
You can get all the weapons for like 1 ref.

>>716067758
>Having to get weapons and other items drop is shit as everyone else runs around with OP shit.
anon everything's designed to try and be a sidegrade to stock, with stock being a "universally good" option.

>>716067865
McFuckYou weapon: 0.0001 microsecond longer cooldown, one less bullet.

WAOW WHAT A LE BALANCED SIDEGRADE. Fuck off bro.

>>716060101 (OP)
Show me literally any Demo player who can consistently 1v1 Scouts in close quarters and I'll concede that he's stronger

>>716067858
>Heavy is simply better 99% of the time
**HEAVY DEATH SOUND INTENSIFIES**

>>716068071
Retard

>>716068071
>genuinely filtered by tf2
holy shit anon, i think the best course for you might actually be suicide.

>>716068228
Play TFC like a man. Everyone has the same shit. Now that takes skill. Not running around with """"""""""""sidegrade""""""""' weapons being blasted from halfway across the fucking map.

>>716068108
git gud

At the point where Valve were going to make Meet Your Match they should have made a new Team Fortress game instead. It had already been long enough to warrant a sequel and there should have been plenty that valve learned from the game at that point to warrant making a new game from ground up.

OP is just a Sniper main who got dominated and triggered by a good Demo.

Why is there not a single vanilla server in the entire world? They all are LE RANDUMB 24/7 CANCER MAP INSTANT LE RESPAWN 1 BILLION PLAYERS FRIENDLY servers.

>>716067865
Literally every class in this game has at least one weapon slot containing an upgrade. This has been true since the day unlocks were made a thing with the introduction of the ubersaw.

>People are good with sniper and keep killing me! This isn't fair!
>No, I won't take a different path to the objective!
>No, I won't pick spy to counter him!
>No, I won't move with my team to lessen the chance of him shooting me!
>I simply must charge at the sniper in an open area, get headshot and then complain about it!

>>716068435
Valve doesn't make games anymore. Valve doesn't work or do anything productive anymore. Valve became a video game store. That's that.

>>716068580
>ignoring all the other counter arguments in the thread
you lost, snigger.

>>716068558
Stock is Demo's best loadout. Most of the strongest weapons in the game are stock (Scatter, Sniper, Stickies, Medigun, Rockets, etc)

>>716068652
>Most of the strongest weapons in the game are stock

>>716068580
It's ego. They simply can't reflect and improve and blame everything else but themselves. Good players don't give a shit about enemy snipers and frag all day. Every other class that isn't sniper can ignore/mitigate sniper. Of course, this requires you to git gud which is too much to ask for a board who thinks soldier is OP

>>716068558
>ubersaw
its melee.
the downside to using a stock melee is that its a melee weapon without anything else going for it.

Sniper exists so the game does not devolve into a bunch of retards jumping around mid trying to DM each other.

Sniper makes it so standing around in the open makes you a useless div who will die. If you hang around in the open at all, unga-bunga man-fighting everyone you see, you will get shot in the head and made to feel retarded.

Similarly, Spy makes it so your team cant just stare ahead and mindlessly spam gunfire in an Overwatch deathball. Both assassin classes exist to provide a punishment for not having some forward momentum.

>>716068580
What if there is no different path to the objective because the map is cancer like most maps made by the "community" are?

You faggots just want to complain. Nothing is wrong with demo or sniper.
>>716068525
Castaway

>>716068960
a lot of valve maps suffer that problem too, the sniper can find a spot where he covers the path to the objective and every path to him.

>>716068778
Name a weapon stronger than the medi-gun or sniper rifle.
Ignore if you're just gonna post another ebin meme image

>>716069065
Cite a single example. You guys give way too much credit to snipers being these masterminds. If it was that OP nobody would play anyone else. It's like new people when they think spy is OP and yet if you play him you get your ass kicked by any halfway competent opponent.

>>716069207
That piss rifle sniper has. Bodyshots and then he's soaked and takes minicrits for the duration. Medigun you have a fair point. But that's not really a "weapon".

>>716069367
A sniper shot would bypass all that and just kill
Jarate is busted as a secondary though, big damage buff, big aoe, short cooldown, no aim required makes the smg a bad option

>>716068525
Because Casual subsumes any user-created vanilla servers, same as it ever was
The Furry Pound is still the best map rotation vanilla server, and same as it has been for most of TF2's life, it's just about the only one because anybody that wants normal TF2 will go to Valve servers or Quickplay or Casual matchmaking

>>716068652
Demofags claim that the iron bomber is still better even after the fix.

Scoutfags claim Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol would be an upgrade even without the self heal. Plus your melee options offer either free long range damage or a triple jump with the only downside being a melee attack you're never going to use seriously.

I could keep going.

>>716069207
Vaccinator is considered OP by most people now. I've seen some snipers claim Bazaar Bargain is actually incredibly powerful given how easily its downside can be negated. Doesn't matter if you disagree since you shouldn't have been cherry picking specific weapon slots to begin with. The fact that you did shows you know the game has a shit load that have upgrades.

>>716066264
>trying to pretend "the only counter to this class is another of the same class" is a good thing

>year of our lord 2025
>people still pretend that spy counters anything

Personally I've had success hiding behind walls and props waiting for the rifle shot sound before I move out into the open. If I'm nearing a sniper and I know he's there and I want to rush him, I randomly crouch. Most of the time I don't pay attention to him scoping because I'm fixed on w+m1 to him and I still suck at this game's aiming after 10+ years, but generally the crouch does throw them off

>>716060101 (OP)
>nerf demo's stickies so that he can be offensive with him, making him use them defensively as intended.
>1% of players (competive players) complain so hard they revert all changes
This is what would happen if they ever touched sniper unfortunately. Your already seeing sniper fags whining I'm this thread

>>716070187
Problem is a lot of /v/ will argue against what counts as a counter.

Plenty will argue that sapper counters engie solely because it's specifically designed to disable and destroy his building and ignore how stacked against the spy the sap/wrench game is.

>>716070413
Damn that was like 11 years ago. Whenever compfags pretend to care about game balance I'll remember how they raged hard about a busted weapon actually got balanced because it didn't fit their made-up ruleset.

>>716060101 (OP)

>>716070413
>>716070527
stickes were always meant to be dual purpose. Do you people just ignore all the dev videos and notes? Also that nerf completely ruined pubs for like a week. Nobody could break defenses anymore. Red's wr spiked by like 60%

>>716060101 (OP)
>>716070687
Most people suck at Demo. I am most people.

There's only two problems with sniper ultimately. The first is that they aren't fun to fight unless you're also a sniper or you go into melee range. The second is that the class is balanced by how bad you are at playing him.

>>716060101 (OP)
I'm legitimately too stupid to be effective with stickies in "real-time" and also land pipes at all so I just play Pyro.

>>716070687
This happens to me too often. How do I even aim in this game? I've played some rounds just to practice as sniper and not caring about my kda or objectives at all. It felt so random whenever I got a headshot. My shots always end up too short or too long ending up right next to the player's heads or bodies but never on them. Is there some magic mouse sensitivity or acceleration combination I'm lacking? Is it my mouse that's the problem? It's been 15 years and I still don't understand headshots or aiming. I never learned rocket jumps or surfing either. It's all such arcane wizardry to me

>>716070985
And which map you're playing on.

>>716071070
try playing tf2 with a high refresh rate monitor and high fps
a lot easier to land pipes then

>tf2 thread
>ooga booga blah blah blah
who gives a fuck negro. bring back quickplay.

>>716060101 (OP)
>Sticky + pipe combo
Why not just use two stickies

>>716071721
My monitor is 120 hz but I don't know what FPS I get

>Been practicing a lot in jump maps
>Get some gnarly ass jump in on opposing team
>Faggot ass sniper click on me even If I'm coming from fucking skybox.

>>716072003
Skill issue

>>716070413
I'm not a sniper fag , it's like my 5th most played class, and I think the game is perfectly balanced as is, I've never had an issue dealing with high level snipers and can even counter snipe them if needed. Crying about sniper = skill issue

>>716066120
razorback sniper in range of even 1 sentry is not a viable spy target by any means

>>716067693
that
what?

i'm referring to the fact that you gave a statistic about landing shots and then claimed your statistic doesn't apply to bad players, only good ones
this isn't a "yes 9/10 but *MEEEEEEEEEE* no count!" issue, this is a "yes, 1/10, but it becomes 9/10 if you count out people who make up that majority" this is a completely different topic wtf are you talking about?
you sound like some kinda robot that has arguments pre-loaded and doesn't register what they or the person they're talking with says, just unleashes them one after the other

*airblast*

Spycicle should not melt, and homewrecker should not exist

>>716072278
>dude sniper is op because most snipers hit 9/10 shots
>well what about the bad ones?
>we arent talking about those snipers
its that simple.

>>716072258
1. wrong, guns exist
2. not every enemy needs to be taken down by you personally, an engineer with a sentry is not viable against pyro or scout alone, a heavy isn't viable against any weak class, that sniper doesn't need to be your personal target, go eat penis elsewhere while your demoman destroys him
3. then play a different class
there's nine (9) of them

>>716072415
let me gun down this sniper before a sentry gun obliterates me, good idea

>>716071993
>enable dev console in settings
>type cl_showfps 1 into console
>???
>profit

>>716072369
IF YOU SAY A STATISTIC
AND I CLAIM THAT STATISTIC IS INCORRECT
AND YOU FOLLOW IT UP WITH "YEAH WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM NIGGERS OVER THERE WHO MAKE THE STATISTIC INCORRECT"
THEN THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE STATISTIC CORRECT
YOU ACTUAL APE
IF YOU SAY 4+4=10
AND I SAY "NUH UH BITCH"
AND YOU GO "YES IT DOES, I JUST COUNTED OUT THOSE EXTRA 2"
YOU'RE STILL AN IDIOT
NOW YOU'RE ALSO A DISHONEST IDIOT

>>716072336
spy mains everyone

Alright smart guys, if you were the Heavy here, what's the play? Hard mode: no 'switch off heavy' play.

>>716072510
>most snipers hit 9/10 shots
>WELL WHAT ABOUT THE MOUTH BREATHER HUH? HUH? GUESS SNIPERS PLAYERS ARE ACTUALLY TRASH YOU RETARDED GORILLA FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!
go get some sleep, anon.

>Yeah bro just click on him and he dies.
>Just click on him, nevermind whole game dynamics
>Just click on him, ignoring fact that maps tend favor snipers.
>JUST CLICK ON HIM, forgetting that this fuckface have infinite range and hitscan damage.
>JUST CLICK ON HIM BRAH HE DIES TO A BREEZE :^)

>>716072596
You hug the cart

>>716072596

use the teleporter

>>716072336
Also the ambassador should fire in bursts and crit to 125 per head shot, and have a guaranteed 90 per body shot

wtf is this contract pass and is it worth it?

>>716072842
Word

>>716060101 (OP)
The superior game already solved the problem of countering spam and snipers.

>>716072596
Hug the cart, pray there's a medic , hug walls. Also if there's 3 heavies or more you can just hug the cart and rush , I've done that before.

>>716072596
Game is more fun without heavies anyway.

>>716072921
>Shield breaks in .5 seconds because damage levels in Overwatch are high as fuck for no reason
Nice job nigger.

>>716072596
Everyone else's answer, in combination with spamming
>C+1
>C+4
>C+6
>>716073019
Z+8

>>716072921
>Servers can't even reach 13 players

>>716072921
You mean the same game where your ebin shield man was dogshit because divers just hopped over him and raped his supports?
This mechanic existed in MvM 3 years prior btw.

>>716065480
*laughs in machina*

>>716072921
bullshit. widowmaker is commonly banned in ranked because blizzard can't balance snipers either

>>716069269
upward second

>>716060101 (OP)
>1.5 seconds to do what Sniper does with the press of a button
>requires you to be in the effective damage-dealing range of every class bar Sniper

>>716062708
Most Soldiers don't even know how to rocket jump

>>716072921
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A8wdHRVCm8

You mean deadlock. Engie being able to place walls like that would change lot of game dynamics.

>>716060101 (OP)
>class 1 deals damage with midrange projectiles that are subjected to physics
>class 2 deals damage with longrange projectiles that are not subjected to physics, and additionally can deal enough damage to oneshot the bulkiest character in the game (450 max damage) with no damage falloff

I wonder why people think Class 2 is stronger than Class 1

faggots are mad at sniper cause they can't play him so they feel his victory is unearned but the sniper gamer is undisturbed by this because the sniper gamer took so much whiskey and meth he forgot what game he's in

the sniper gamer doesn't care about your "balance"
he games nontheless

>>716070187
Countering Sniper/Engineer no less.
The 2 classes that require the least amount of focus in addition to having the 2nd/3rd most amount of anti-spy unlocks.

>>716071917
This is the real issue and why I stopped playing. It's not fun joining games where half my team left and about to lose over and over again

>>716073620
A Mei Wall would never be added to TF2 because of trolling potential.

I would really rather not add overwatch shit to tf2. There's a reason it's dead. No one wants to shoot at a wall

>>716073864
Source repo had wall model for engie building, they were playing around with that idea.

>>716062708
You just need to lower crocket damage to balance the character. You'd be killing two birds with one stone in doing so since you'd make it so that the character with the highest mobility and most leeway in regards to its loadout in the game can't just randomly delete you, and also shut down most of the people that whine about "random crits" when they're really complaining about random crit rockets.

Wanna keep is around as a sentry buster? Make them do random mini-crits by default instead.

>>716064056
>when valve expected sniper to be balanced by players aim not being that great
This is always the most bafflingly retarded argument. Yeah, the guys who were hosting their own majors for CS before they stopped updating TF2 just never realized players were competitive and could learn to aim well. Before TF2's development even started they had a game where people with far better aim than 99% of TF2 players were competing for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Valve knew players could get good.

>>716067226
Bots and youtube essays buckbroke the playerbase almost overnight.

>>716074890
Children are so retarded they can't even imagine people playing FPS games before TF2 came out, or that pointing and clicking might be a transferable skill that literally everyone who plays FPS games with a mouse learns.

>>716073258
Are you saying the counter to spam and snipers could itself be countered? What horrible design.

>>716070687
>60-80% can reliable land consecutive pipes a head on fight
>cannot for the life of me hit someone who doesn't know I am there
>hold head in hands wondering if i'm actually good at demo
It's all worth it in the end when you just see -100 over and over again

>>716077198
>can land direct pipes without much issue
>can never hit stickies so I'll always suck at Demoman

>>716063594
Good thing I also have my team creating distractions for him.

>>716066120
Beautifully put.

>>716077602
your team died to the sniper and you're next.

>>716066120
Sniper has all the time in the world to shoot anything that threatens him. Whereas any other player has the whole enemy team to look out for, the Sniper only has to react when there is another Sniper or some newfag Scout who really thinks he can run across the entire map to shoot me before I point and click on him once.

>>716070985
>or go into melee range
where you get instantly jaratecombo'd because the sniper should also be the most dangerous melee class

>>716077724
i-it's over

>>716078562
or get random critted because the long range class that’s supposed to be weak at close ranges should be able to randomly oneshot all but Soldier, Demoknight, and Heavy

ITT: "What if the Sniper just plays perfectly and I don't? He looks pretty busted then, doesn't he, retard?"

>>716079537
correction: "what if the sniper player is decently good?"

>>716079537
>points and click on hitbox
>NOOOOO THAT'S INCONCEIVABLE THAT NEVER HAPPENS

>>716070187
he counters retards by baiting and pulling 5 of your teammates back to your original spawn while they could be pushing the cart at final, losing you the match

Why has no one posted the engineer montage yet?

>>716060101 (OP)
>anon learns what's been common knowledge in tf2 since 2008
Next you'll tell me you discovered comp players are fags or that the netcode is shit.

>>716079537
You're dealing with shitter scrubs who make up the vast majority of the playerbase. These are the people who get routinely shut down by Sniper because they have their brains turned off while playing, and therefore think it's a fundamental issue with the game that needs to be changed when they die to a Sniper. Also, keep in mind that even if Sniper got nerfed tomorrow, it's an iron-clad fact that they will immediately find something new to complain about and nerf into the ground until the game is unplayable. Such is the nature of the whining shitter scrub, and why they should never be listened to.

>>716080081
/v/edditors dont play the game but like to talk about it for some reason, if they did they would talk about bringing back quickplay

Tf2 is dead. Get over it.

>>716079735
>points and click on hitbox
>misses because you actually have good movement and aren't just walking in a straight line
>NOOOOO THAT'S INCONCEIVABLE THAT NEVER HAPPENS
Weird argument considering every other post complaining about him operates under the pretense that the player is a human aimbot who can casually and reliably 180 to quickscope a scout flanking him and for whom any form of evasion or movement is utterly useless against.

>"AMBASSADOR IS BROKEN" the comp soldier main cried as his 75-1 KD was ended by a lucky shot
>"NERF THE FUCKING SANDMAN NOW" the comp demo screamed as he got stunned and killed while spawncamping with his hale's own golden 573837582920184748 kill stickylauncher

Grow up dude. Videogames are a sham.

>>716079537
>and I don't?
Where did that come from?

>>716070413
valve kneels to demochads

>>716080125
I honestly don't think it's even their ingame experiences as much as bots and youtubefags like Shounic poisoning the well. It's a little funny in retrospect how everybody would post his sniper video and act like it was some infallible scientific study definitively proving sniper was bad for the game before people finally realized it was retarded and said nothing. I find it hard to believe so many people are actually getting upset over the average dogshit sniper in TF2. The playerbase has not gotten better from the times when the real complaint about sniper was the five of them on your team being absolutely useless no matter how much people want to convince themselves otherwise.

>>716080474
snipers cried to get both of those changes

>>716060101 (OP)
bump

>>716061394
He's going to lick ya

>>716081526
>I find it hard to believe so many people are actually getting upset over the average dogshit sniper in TF2
it sucks when you get insta-killed by a guy outside your effective range
thats really the crux of the issue, he's unfun to fight against
>gotten better from the times when the real complaint about sniper was the five of them on your team being absolutely useless no matter how much people want to convince themselves otherwise.
well that's kinda the issue too because more often than not the player interactions with a sniper is either him being a useless slot on your team, being an annoying enemy, or in the rare case, completely shutting down a whole lobby
obviously these things are all greatly dependent on circumstances and maps n whatnot, but I don't find it that surprising that most people have a general negative perception of him

>>716060101 (OP)
Obviously, Sniper and Demoman are the strongest classes in the game. That is why I main them.

>>716083887
but the strongest class in the game is medic by a wide margin

>>716083987
That's why medic is my third choice when shit is not going to plan. Followed by heavy because I have perfect tracking accuracy.

>>716080362
show me the good movement that stops a sniper.

>>716080474
actually its snipers that bitch and moaned about both of those, not soldiers and demos.

>July 21
>still no Summer 2025 Update

>>716084468
Good.

No one likes fighting Sniper because he is designed to out-range you, eg. attack you at a distance that you cannot effectively fight back. Whether or not he's "balanced" isn't necessarily relevant to that.

>>716071070
>rocket jumping
TF2's engine gets this shit all wrong. It's absolutely not your fault if it doesn't work consistently.
>t. absolutely nailed rocket jumping mechanics in engines of superior prior games like Quake 1, Quake 2, Quake 3 and am objectively correct in judging the quality of FPS engines based on decades-honed gamefeel

>>716070687
LITERALLY ME

>>716084385
>Just have footage on hand showcasing a fundamental FPS skill so I can ignore it and say it doesn't prove anything anyway
Go watch some good player in a pub and skip around until you see them deal with a sniper or something. I know you're going to cope that this is proof you're right but I'm not here to teach you how FPS games work. There's no FPS game on the planet where even the best players are perfectly accurate with hitscan except against bots and subpar players that have shit movement.

>>716085643
so you cant prove your point that "sniper is balanced because you can jump"?

>>716084720
rocket jumping in quake sucks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOLpipxoF7s
Thoughts?

>>716085816
Yes, I don't have footage at the ready proving the common knowledge that movement is valuable in shooters. I'm sorry. I concede this argument.

>>716086096
sounds fun to fuck around with
i like how the brick guy looks

>>716060393
Overtroons lost, too. In fact, they lost at least TWICE. Then there was Concord, that lost so hard it was stillborn. Plus all the other unnotable "hero shooters" trying to and failing to ape what TF2 had.

>>716086245
alright well, whenever you feel ready to prove that sniper isnt busted just let me know.

>>716061431
The bots broke everyone's brain. Remember how the huntsman used to be considered luck based? That's how buckbroken everyone is, now.

>>716086541
When are you going to prove that sniper is busted?

>>716086626
simple: play the game.

Easiest fix for Sniper is
>Critical Headshots require a full charge
>Any headshot below 100% charge is a mini-crit headshot
>Slight buff to global scope charge speed to compensate for new change
There. Now quickscoping isn't nearly as problematic, and it reinforces the original intent behind Sniper which was hard-scoping for kills.

>>716084468
My cope is that the update won’t just be a workshop copy+paste job this time. Nothing huge like new weapons, but maybe Valve is at least trying to improve casual mode?

>>716086721
wrong, wrong, and wrong.
the easiest way to fix the sniper is to remove him from the game.
an infinite range class does not belong when everything else is balanced around short-midrange combat.

>>716086672
I played the game and didn't think he was busted though...maybe it's a skill thing where you walk in straight lines and don't think movement helps so sniper is really busted to you...

>>716087075
why do sniggers always pretend that the people complaining about them always walk in straight lines?

>>716060101 (OP)
>range limit
>projectile vs hitscan
>self damage hurts like a bitch
demo is strong, but not super annoying like sniper is.
also medic is stronger, so if you wanna complain about nerfs...

>>716086721
>the original intent behind Sniper which was hard-scoping
Why do you think they didn't intend quickscoping? They added a delay before you could get headshots because people were doing it too fast. If they didn't want it and intended players to just stand there waiting for a full charge then they'd have removed it altogether right there or in the many years the game was being updated.

>>716087308
iirc, during the playtest days all the testers said that sniper was broken, and he was released almost entirely as is.

>>716060101 (OP)
In close proximity, 9/9 classes can kill a demoman in 1.5 seconds too.
Sniper has as far effective range as map design allows for.

>>716087123
I dunno, why do the people seething over sniper pretend that movement doesn't matter and act like every sniper is an aimbot?

You bomb/Flank the sniper.

>>716087506
we surpassed the point of movement mattering at all before the bot days.
for quite a while snipers have been able to hit you with no regard for your movement.

>>716087308
>Valve
>Balancing for shit
This is the same dev which after *years* of it being perfectly fine in its existing state, decided the Ambassador needed a solid smashing with the nerf bat all because whiny comp Sniper mains were getting shat on by Gun Spies.

>>716087656
Catering to compfags was the final downfall of TF2.

>>716087392
>Valve playtesters
This is literally supporting the argument that scrubs are the ones complaining about him. Also, I find it hard to believe that's true, not taken out of context or misinterpreted, and yet also not being posted in every one of these threads.

>>716087656
>>716087732
You niggas think compfags gave a fuck about spy at all?

>>716065480
I like going spy, and annoying snipers with random decloaks and recloaks, and peppering them with long rage revolver shots until they ragepick a different class. And sometimes, I like to disguise as them, and pretend to be a broken bot trapped in some corner near their spawn.

>the "I need godmode to play the stealth class" starter pack

>>716087841
Highlander compfags? Yes.
6v6 compfags? Lolno.

>>716088416
>Why isn't Spy free points this is bullshit how dare I have to have situational awareness

>>716088416
Actually I fight on the front lines with my revolver and then use dead ringer to fuck off

>sniperfag argument for not being OP is that sniper can beat sniper

>>716088416
>the "I am effectively unkillable to 8/9 classes" starter pack

Classes getting items that are direct counters to their counter was a major mistake
>engineer's wrangler & short circuit
>snipers razorback
>spy's spicicle

>>716088938
Oh and Pyro's weapons that remove sappers, just serve as a middlefinger to spies I guess

>>716068580
Tell them to switch to medic.

>>716086461
>what about Overwatch
actual mental illness

>>716070187
Spy doesn't really "counter" anything by itself, but he can force the entire enemy team to change their entire playstyle, merely by the threat that he MIGHT exist somewhere.

>>716060101 (OP)
Demo takes more skill than sniper.

>>716061543
>Spy
Turn around and annihilate it
>Pyro
Just shoot at it with hitscan if he's trying to juggle you

>>716072596
chocolate and FoS

>>716065603
>every sniper is aimbotting
A lot of them are, you're fucking retarded if you think we don't notice the silent aim.

>>716086721
The same update that removed Spy's ability to headshot from long range because he is a short-range class, should have also removed Sniper's ability to headshot from short-range because he is a long-range class.
But Valve's entire employee base are far-left Democrat voters, which means they don't even have a concept of what "principles" means.

>>716063504
And please make the fucking phlog fire more transparent, I cant' see SHIT when using it

>>716088938
Spycicle is the only tolerable one because pyro still counters spy with it equipped, I've screwed spies out of a backstab a ton of times just by getting one flame particle on them and melting their knife

>>716064787
Like an easy 35% of demos are running some bullshit loadout like Loose Canon + Tide turner + Claymore

>>716088154
>I like to disguise as them, and pretend to be a broken bot trapped in some corner near their spawn.
Based

>>716066412
Literally just act like a retard while disguised.

>>716070687
I'VE WALKED FOR MILES INSIDE THIS PIT OF DANGER

>>716087621
>we surpassed the point of movement mattering at all
Yeah, that's why I barely give a fuck about snipers when I play scout. This statement just screams that you're a dogshit player to anybody who knows how to play FPS games. Nigga, go watch any top player in any given game play hitscan and notice how they whiff all the time. You can then even try looking up low elo or pub matches of them and see how, for no reason at all, they're a lot more accurate. You'll never be any good or even be able to comprehend how bad you really are because you refuse to take accountability for your losses and just bitch instead. No point in arguing further with someone like you who'll never consider they could have done something better and insist on blaming the game and seeing their fights against mediocre players as unwinnable.

>>716070827
stickies were meant to be decent on both offense and defense, not the single best offensive and defensive weapon in the game

as is often said, demo is the only class with 2 primaries

Why the fuck are sniper mains always so gay?

>>716065480
>shoot at him
>he doesn't know that sniper has flinch immunity to the minigun
he's just going to shoot you again, bro. do something more productive than tickling someone for 3 damage

>>716066264
Not a single sniper main I know is tax positive and most are mentally ill and on welfare. They are literally the equivalent of stray dogs. I should be allowed to hunt them for sport.

Why would I ever, for a second, view them as my equal? I literally pay for the medicine that stops them from countersniping themselves.

>>716088580
This but Sniper

>>716087621
A Sniper having a nonzero chance to hit you if your movement is good does NOT mean that movement doesn't matter. The entire basis of Scout vs Scout deathmatching at a high level is that the player with the better movement (aka the ability to zig when you think your opponent will zag) can be extrapolated out to include interactions where a Sniper has a bead on you. One example I often use to is to make a Sniper think I'm going to get to a piece of cover that's near me, so I do the noob "press w and aim my crosshair toward the cover", "hey look at me, you know that I know you're about to shoot where I'm going", and then I backpeddle for a second, hear him miss, and then use the downtime where he has to reload his rifle to get to safety. You can also pretend to strafe one direction, only doing it for a split second, before immediately strafing back in the direction you were originally going. It all depends on gamesense and the perceived skill of the player you're fighting. It's not just mindless strafemashing, that's not good movement. You can use these tips against any hitscan class, be it Scout, Heavy, or yes, Sniper. They work great because TF2 has great, skillful movement. It's not Call of Duty where once you realize a Sniper has you in his sights, you're unable to shoot back without slowing to a crawl, and you can only sprint forward, limiting your options. In TF2, you can move omni-directionally while shooting back, and that's not getting into double jumping, rocket jumps, etc.

>>716088416
Dead ringer is literally a garbage meme weapon, and the Kunai is very situational, Big Earner is better for chaining stabs.

>>716091453
>reddit spacing

>>716070413
anon they cut the class's DPS output by 50%, imagine how useless any class would become if you did that to them.
the nerf that they came back with was superior anyway. now instead of ALL demos suffering a 50% damage penalty, it was just the bad demomen that suffered a 100% damage penalty for missing due to the smaller splash radius.

>>716063314
the razorback doesn't hurt good spies that much but it's still bad design

>>716091030
>as is often said, demo is the only class with 2 primaries
People have touted this fact for years, but it really doesn't mean much.
If you look at from a release-era perspective, the shotgun for soldier and especially pyro are important weapons for combat that deal near primary levels of damage.
compared to modern TF2, look at how many classes no longer even run a damaging secondary weapon. Soldier has gunboats and banners, pyro has flares which are all weaker than the shotgun in pure damage, heavy runs sandvich or other lunchbox items most of the time, engineers give up their pistols and sometimes even their shotgun, spies frequently use the least damaging revolver.
demo effectively having two primaries means even less when the game has proven over time that classes can be just as good sacrificing raw damage for utility.

>>716065480
Retards replying to this (and the original replier) don't know that C-2 voice command LITERALLY makes the heavy fist pump (with his cheer) that does the exact same thing
So you can protect yourself from headshots AND not be a fag who keeps pressing for medic every 2 seconds

Shocked all the retards don't know this

>>716073287
does machina actually work like that or are you just speaking hypothetically

>>716084720
Absolute skill issue since I played those same games decades ago in their prime.
A) have you tried RL with Original B) did you even try any RL/SJ maps C) skill sets still translate over, null canceling etc and I was doing fine swapping between TF2 and Tribes 2 A about 12 years ago, even when I was "gotta go fast mode"

Like I say in game and people get pissy, seems like skill issue = you, bro.

>>716064096
i still cannot believe people dont just laydown suppressive fire on a sniper nest.

if he gets hit with anything, his aim is shit. all it takes is a scout or engineer using their pistol to blot force them to retreat for a while.

the counter is communication and positioning. shits fucked in a pub.

you could also just use the dead ringer and disguise as a powerclass on your team to get the sniper to target you, and then he wastes his first shot on a dummy.

>>716093853
>if he gets hit with anything, his aim is shit.
oops! cozy camper.

>>716091792
>It's not Call of Duty where once you realize a Sniper has you in his sights, you're unable to shoot back without slowing to a crawl, and you can only sprint forward, limiting your options
Even in CoD, you honestly do have a fair amount of options to deal with one. My friend gifts me it nearly every year and it's kind of eyeopening thinking about complaints in other games and realizing even in a casual as fuck console shooter with aim assist and SBMM you can still just outplay people and consistently stomp lobbies if you're good enough.

>>716093753
I'm not on the TF2 development team, so the skill issue isn't specifically me.

>>716092901
Devils advocate, experienced players give up their secondaries because they're confident in their skill or skill with their primary.
Even though I know shotgun is superior, I still roll flare gun on Pyro, because I have incredible aim and can connect all my hits, and that delicious crit when-on-fire bonus just gives me a satisfying payoff. Tldr I trade off security for big boom secondary shots.
However, I've gone back to shotgun on soldier because all medics nowadays seem retarded and also all the bad soldiers have poisoned the well that banner=bad player, so I can barely even get a heal despite being top 3 of the scoreboard.

>>716088938
Spycicle sucks. Even on gunspy I never use it. It's so painful to have a juicy stab on a medic or engie only to get cucked by a pyro breathing on you.

>>716094007
If you're having trouble RJing in 2025 then it's a you problem. This isn't Q2/QL no damage frag video. Learn to corner better.

>>716091030
>demo is the only class with 2 primaries
That hasn't be true ever since the Panic Attack rework. Its DPS is higher than both the Grenade Launcher and Stickybomb Launcher.
Thats also not to mention that the Minigun has DPS higher than both combined.

>>716093901
fair point. you'll have to work around his tunnel vision, but he's worse to fight at longer ranges because of the flinch reduction.

otherwise if you can close the distance, just shoot him with revolver, or scatter gun.

>>716061543
You sound like a heavy main who sucks at aiming. Which I was too but had the awareness to not be a retard like you.