Thread 719096780

just respect his sightlines, chud

>>719096780 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/w-OegrNyvQg

>>719096780 (OP)
>shoot rockets, pills, or flares at him.
Problem solved.

>>719096780 (OP)
The issue with Sniper would be resolved extremely easily:
1. Remove Jarate, the Razorback and the Danger Shield
2. Force Sniper to wait a few secs before he can shoot after zooming
Boom, Sniper becomes a balanced class that takes more skill than just aiming.

>>719096780 (OP)
Literally the easiest motherfucker to kill in this game

>>719098668
Allow unzoomed headshots then.

>>719098728
Nah. Just learn good positioning and you still have a class that's probably stronger than the rest of the classes

>>719098715
The class is strong but it's nowhere near where the retards that get their opinions from their ecelebds think it is.
The moment the argument boils down to
>my opponent is hacking therefore class bad
you have failed.

>>719098830
A pocketed demo/solly is the strongest synergy in the game. Sniper isn't taking points, brief-cases or carts.

>>719098928
A good Sniper can easily kill a Medic and completely ruin a pocket combo. And as he is in the game currently, there is zero counter to Sniper since normal Snipers will just use Jarate which allows them and nearby teammates to kill whatever threatens the Sniper, and real good Snipers lkike FatMagic will just quickscope any class who comes close. Sniper is certainly way less balanced currently than Medic

Respect her sightlines too. The Overwatch community was better when they rightly believed that Widow is the most skillful character in the game.

>>719099075
Well the argument, aside from the variables of player movement which is more individually set on mobile classes (Scout, Demo, Soldier, sometimes Pyro/Medic with the right loadouts + Engie) with all the added air strafing, the real answer to this is another sniper opposing the other to keep him busy or kill him out right.
And I'm speaking from a 6's pugs standpoint, even Highlander would imply a mirror match.

And this has always been the case since Quake, guy who has rail-canon is the strongest fucker on the server tat that point until someone else gets one or kills him through raaw movement. Both of which are do-able and applicable to TF2.

Hell I still think the bouncy Flair, C.Crossbow or Ambassador are fine tools to at least throw said Sniper off.

>>719099450
Is the ambassador usable at all nowadays?

>>719099571
You have to two tap light classes, maybe more after a headshot. It's not UNUSABLE, but if you were running with it pre-nerf, you will feel jipped. Still, headshot-bodyshot-facestab can be a cheeky combo.

>>719099450
Sniper's counter being Sniper is just not a good idea, and I don't care if its a symptom present in previous games. As for mobile classes, this is meaningless. Watch any good Sniper and you'll see that regardless of how random Scout moves or how high Soldier goes, they can most of the time hit their heads with ease.
This entire scenario just goes away if you remove quickscoping, and it wouldn't worsen the game in the slightest. Sure you'd get Sniperfags moaning like GunSpyfags moaned when the Amby got nerfed but ultimately Sniper would remain a potent class. It just means you actually have to think about positioning, charging shots and managing your tunnel vision instead of quickly taking out a ton of enemies and getting away with it with zero consequences, and forcing the enemy team to have Snipers to counter you. Sniper's hard counters should be Spy Scout and the like

The vast majority of butthurt from snipers is the being killed out of nowhere part. This is the major reason as to what makes most people butthurt enough to claim he's OP. What makes people even more butthurt is when they try to kill the sniper by doing whatever(changing to scout/spy/counter sniper/whatever) then still getting killed as they try to focus the sniper farming them.

Really, the only thing that needs to be done is make visible laser sights default to sniper. Gives smarter players way more information to play around sniper and once enough players actually are able to figure out how to do it, then it makes it obvious it's mostly bad players complaining about the high K/D class in a game about objectives.

Why’d they nerf the caber? Camping snipers in the battlements with it was peak

>>719100254
>The vast majority of butthurt from snipers is the being killed out of nowhere part.
Getting into a 1v1 or a group fight, dying, then seeing the killcam zoom literally across the entire map to some unusual decked out sniper never fails to make me seethe.
There's no counterplay, I never even attempted to engage him but he ends up with the kill and leaves me with a 20 second respawn timer where I need to sit on my thumb.

>>719096780 (OP)
Sniper has never been an issue. The issue is poor map design (See: Payload in general). The fault entirely lies on the tards who refuse to stop playing the mode where every map needs to be designed with huge sightlines for the objective. Something you'll notice is that Sniper is far less of a threat on other modes like KotH and Control Points since those maps are mostly designed well, with only a few bad outliers (Harvest notably).
I fully believe that people bitch about Sniper to get heat off the backs of the real problem classes, which are Soldier and Demo, both of whom are among the most powerful classes in the game with next to no downsides and who both managed to get through the nerfing spree between MYM and Jungle Inferno almost entirely unscathed.

fortnite already fixed this

>>719099084
bait used to be believeable

Remember when you could avoid enemies the same way as teammates, but then widows had 45 minutes queue times & they scrapped the entire system rather than admit Widow's kit is a a fun-sucking POS that doesn't have a single counterplay option for half of the cast?

>>719098903
the moment the argument boils down to
>just play against noobs
you have failed

>>719100597
>real problem classes, which are Soldier and Demo, both of whom are among the most powerful classes in the game with next to no downsides
Kek
If Demo and Soldier were that powerful, everyone would be bitching about them. Fact of the matter is that most Demos suck balls and both classes are easily defeated by competent Scouts, Pyros, other Soldiers and Demos, Heavy if he has good postioning and Sniper (and obviously Spy if he gets them). Really only Engineer and Medic are completely vulnerable to them and Engie may not even be because of how obscenely strong against them the Wrangler+Rescue Ranger combo is

>>719097501
>>shoot rockets
o em gee, rockets surely are faster than hitscan bullit! And they most likely deal XTREME damage at long range as well!

>>719100910
>If Demo and Soldier were that powerful, everyone would be bitching about them.
Again this is why I mention the whole "people bitching about Sniper to get heat off Soldier and Demo's backs" thing. Everyone gets salty when a Sniper randomly kills you from a million miles away, but that's the thing, not every Sniper player on the planet is a 10k hour god or a cheater. Meanwhile any ol dumbfuck can pick up a rocket launcher or stickies and spam to their hearts content and dominate an entire server due to how powerful and easy to use these weapons are thanks to Valve making it very clear that they want explosives spam to reign supreme.
At the end of the day, while everyone hates being killed by Sniper, the overwhelming majority of people actually bitching about him are Soldier mains and sticky spammers who want to stay out of the crossfire, so to speak.
>N-no my class isn't overpowered even though I can just spam explosives vaguely in the general direction. Look the Sniper can kill you in one hit isn't that unfair!? Please ignore the fact that he actually has to aim at your head which is often very difficult to how erratic people move around.

>>719100847
>anyone past 2 hours has TAS level aim
ok dude keep seething about the class
it's never getting changed

>>719101357
game's been out for 18 years and as you say, the ability to play sniper has not changed at all in that time. keep being retarded for internet engagement

>>719099084
Its crazy to me no aim no brain Winston is seen as high skill.

>>719101256
>any ol dumbfuck can pick up a rocket launcher or stickies and spam to their hearts content and dominate an entire server
Huh? Never seen a Solly or Demo "dominate a whole server", not even pocketed ones. I've seen pocketed Heavies dominate but it's usually on bullshit maps like 2Fort where they just spawncamp. Meanwhile a good Sniper can completely shut down a map
>the overwhelming majority of people actually bitching about him are Soldier mains and sticky spammers who want to stay out of the crossfire
Bullshit. Many Heavy, Engineer, Medic, Scout and Spy mains are anti-Sniper.
>N-no my class isn't overpowered even though I can just spam explosives vaguely in the general direction
Blast damage can either easily be dodged or doesn't really do enough damage to justify calling them OP.
>Please ignore the fact that he actually has to aim at your head which is often very difficult to how erratic people move around
This is a major issue. Sniper's only real skill is aiming, which is a skill other classes like Heavy and Scout also have to learn. Except those classes have to learn about positioning and resource management and movement while Sniper mains can just learn to quickscope and 90% of their problems go away. And if you suck at that then just bring the Jarate and Bushwacka which can take out a large chunk of inexperienced players with ease, and a lot of experienced players too

>>719101797
You know you're just proving my point by absolutely grasping at straws to defend Soldier and Demo right?

>>719101256
If you get deleted by a Soldier it's going to be close range 9 times out of 10. There is a chance you can kill him before he kills you.
If a Sniper kills you, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be from long range. Not a single class outside of another Sniper can reasonably be expected to kill him.

we doing this again?

>>719101256
The skill required of Soldier and Demo is proportional to the skill needed of the class they are fight.
Scout? Skill.
Engineer? No Skill
Pyro? Skill
Heavy? No Skill
And when they are fighting each other its one of the most dynamic encounters testing both players aim, movement and positioning.

>>719100597
Soldier is pretty much accepted at this point to be over powered on purpose and demoman is only bad if you have a little shit sticky spamming.

>>719102258
>Pyro? Skill
>Heavy? No Skill

>>719101851
There is ample counterplay to fight off a Soldier or a Demo. Pretty much every class has a reliable fighting chance against one.

>>719097501
>moves out of the way
>equips danger shield
>runs to health kit
>runs to dispenser
doing all of the above safely behind his team

>Walks by you
>doesn't even stab you or the F2P Engineer that's next to you

>>719096780 (OP)
Spies and Snipers especially are actually what keeps a match's momentum moving along, despite what ignorant players will say to the contrary. Say you're holding an advantageous spot as a Soldier, one with height advantage that no other combat class could really contest in close range due to the level geometry, even if they know you're there. You can just rain down rockets with splash damage the second they're close, hitting them before they can even see you. Sniper is what keeps this kind of motherfucker in check, because the longer he stays still in his little perch, the more he has to worry about his angles in the long range, not just the short range that he has on lockdown. With the threat of a Sniper quickscope at any moment, the need to keep moving is incentivized.

A Sniper's unique threat is what gives the moment to moment interaction with the game a whole new layer of depth. Spies as well, because even if you're just waddling your way to the frontlines, you need to have eyes in the back of your head so you're not picked off. You need to have your ears open for the screams of your teammates getting backstabbed or headshot. There's no room to be absent-minded when you're not in an immediately frontline fight thanks to the Sniper and Spy class.

>>719102258
Nah all classes in the game need skill in various areas when fighting, including Engineers and Heavies (Heavy actually needs a fuck ton of skill to play him properly, that's why there are so few Heavy mains). The only exception is Sniper where you only have to learn good aim and basic usage of Jarate and that's it, you can shut down whole lobbies because of how insanely strong quickscopes are and how unbalanced Jarate is as a secondary (plus the Bushwacka obviously)

>>719103134
>Say you're holding an advantageous spot as a Soldier, one with height advantage that no other combat class could really contest in close range due to the level geometry, even if they know you're there.
Heavy and pyro counters this but comp babies throw a hissy fit if you even suggest to run those characters.

>>719101797
>Huh? Never seen a Solly or Demo "dominate a whole server", not even pocketed ones. I've seen pocketed Heavies dominate but it's usually on bullshit maps like 2Fort where they just spawncamp. Meanwhile a good Sniper can completely shut down a map
Utterly ludicrous that you would suggest this to be true. God, I wish Uncletopia stats on their website were still a thing, you'd see in plain proof that the Sniper Rifle wasn't even in the top 3 weapons for highest kills per minute, and certainly nowhere near the top in damage per minute. Sniper never takes over a server, certainly not relative to actual combat classes. What you're seeing in cases where Snipers are getting a lot of kills in rapid succession is the result of a better overall team beating the crap out of a weaker overall team. A Sniper on a bad team can't really do shit because they get easily overwhelmed. I see it all the time where a Sniper is wrecking shit one round, and then the next round after a scramble, he's unable to get comfortable and has to switch off to something else like Scout or Soldier.

>>719101851
your point is stating that soldier/demo are op and then working backwards to justify it because you think everyone is gaslighting you into thinking otherwise, its a binary system where either they agree they're op or they try to explain why they're not and they're just bullshitting you.

the argument of a fucking schizophrenic, unironically, before you go outside and get some fresh air the bottom line is that soldier/demo can't one shot every class in the game, without crits they can't one shot ANY class in the game, sniper can and with hitscan so you can genuinely see a sniper for 1 frame, duck back behind cover and die anyway because lag compensation means the sniper shot you on his screen

>>719103517
>Uncletopia stats

>>719103796
Predictable retard response.

>>719102648
>2 minutes of walking
>Finally reach the nest
>F2P engineer standing still, probably being scolded by his mother
>Go stab him
>CRIT SOUND, BLOOD, YET NOT EVEN A BUTTERKNIFE
>GET SHREDDED BY THE SENTRY
People only ever talk about le epic trickstabs but always ignore the rest

>>719101690
It makes sense when you realize OW brought in a lot of people who don't like shooters and catered to them and they became the most vocal voices for the subgenre.

>>719103789
>soldier/demo can't one shot every class in the game, without crits they can't one shot ANY class in the game, sniper can and with hitscan so you can genuinely see a sniper for 1 frame
Damn, can't argue with that. If only Sniper had a lower HP pool (say 125), no mobility options, a low firing rate, and no crowd control ability to counterbalance the massive upsides you listed relative to Soldier/Demo. Talk about a massive oversight on Valve's part.

>>719104070
What's that have to do with Uncletopia formerly providing a mountain of statistics from thousands and thousands of games that would prove Sniper is nowhere near OP enough to take over a server? Also, the fact that you're validating that Uncletopia is super sweaty would even further validate my assertion considering the fact that the best Sniper players would be playing there, and Sniper still wouldn't be able to dominate.

>>719101690
>>719104185
>Ability cooldowns just make kills easier
>As a result other cooldown abilities are get out of jail free cards
>Actually trying to get killed with your skills and not with cooldown abilities is nearly impossible
>Worse yet they gave big dick damage numbers to said abilities because of comp play.

>>719104446
>still defending troontopia

>>719104606
>>719104620
Never defended Uncletopia. No argument found, thank you so much for your concession.

If Sniper truly had no coutnerplay other than another Sniper, then the best Snipers would never die to non-Sniper players. Think about what you're missing that better players with brains aren't.

>>719104678
>Sure, I am using information from this joke of a community and e-celeb and insisting its good information, but I'm not technically defending the server
You know, you actually had me believing you were being at least being honest.

Sniper haters really outing themselves ITT, love to see it.

>>719104836
Show me any website of TF2 servers that keeps track of its stats. Uncletopia was the only one I was able to find.

>>719104836
Uncle Dane wants Sniper to be nerfed.

Regardless of defense, sniper is why I don't play TF2.
Remove him and I'll come back.

>>719105385
No, you won't, because you don't actually like TF2.

>>719102556
Sounds like he has a good team around him and so maybe they deserve to win.

>>719105638
taht's your takeaway here? I don't care if they win, i care about dying bullshit deaths. I'll take having fun and losing over winning without fun any time

>>719096780 (OP)
Honestly, I want every server to have a 420 no scope Sniper main on it, because these dogshit kiddies that have plagued the game have cost me too many games and they deserve to get dom'd by Sniper cock.

>Average Payload Last
>3 Engineers with Wranglers and Rescue Rangers turtling behind their guns
>2 Pyros stuffing every uber that walks in while showing off their hales own scorchshot
>Kritz Medic and Vaccinator Medic girlfriends buffing everybody
>Heavy and Demoman Highlander Platinum players pubbing moments before their scrim
>Average Spy Main abusing broken unlocks and broken hitreg to feed off your teammates constantly
>Godlike (possibly aimbotting) Sniper sitting behind all of this
>People still have no idea why TF2 isn't fun anymore

>>719107632
Wranlger and rescue ranger on its own isn't bad but when paired up is a nightmare. Same with short circuit. Vaccinator should just be outright banned

>>719107632
TF2 is so much better when it's a server full of casuals fighting each other. The game, like many others, got ruined when obsessive fags started thinking that minimum 4k hours is a normal thing to have and began pubstomping to fuel their little insatiable egos.

Please refer to the official tier list made by actual veterans

>>719098668
The only issue with the sniper are the boring scrubs whining about him.
All classes are fine.

>>719099075
>there is zero counter to
You
play
A TEAM GAME
T E A M
G A M E
Nevermind all the existing options to counter anyone, if a select player has reached a tactical advantage utilizing terrain and skill, you should WORK AS A DAMN TEAM. Even a 0 misses sniper team can carry only so many targets at once, put some pressure on them!!!

>>719113037
>retard hasn't played Team Fortress 2
TF2 is a "team game" in the sense that people work together to do the map goal and sometimes do Ubers. But it isn't insanely team-focused, most matches will be heavily individualistic with players doing whatever they want and not collaborating on specific tactics, just on pushing the cart or capturing a point at best. This isn't Arma or Squad where you can command dozens of people into doing real tactics

>>719113037
>Have to get the whole team to beat one sniper
>Not even mentioning the fact he's in the back behind HIS entire team
>That you'd have to fight to get to him
>While said sniper is picking off your team's highest value targets

>>719107632
Wrangler is great. You can support your bros by laying constant precision fire support from across the map and just chill with some steak & booze.

>>719113267
>>Have to get the whole team to beat one sniper
That's how snipers are IRL lmao

>>719113267
>Have to get the whole team to beat one sniper
>he's in the back behind HIS entire team
>That you'd have to fight to get to him
Sounds like you need your team to beat his team...

>>719113220
I know, but even randoms can be coaxed into action.
>tfw players respond and band up into a small squad
cool times

>>719102258
>Engineer? No Skill
All classes need skill to master. Engi's a one man army unto himself when played right.

>>719113220
just pointing on in team chat where a problematic Sniper is completely fucks him over, try it

>>719101004
>>719102556
>shitters that can't aim the Direct Hit
You deserve to get headshot if you can't keep a sniper from aiming.

>>719101004
Not a shmup player, are you?
Wepon may be too slow, but bullets still push.

>>719102556
>runs to health kit
>runs to dispenser
So you contested him at his ideal range while he was protected by his entire team and still disrupted him enough to force him to leave his position while you advance by shooting a very forgiving splash damage projectile at him?

>>719116109
the direct hit is literally a three shot at max rampup on a 125hp enemy
play the game for once

>>719105638
>>719116558
>hyperfocused on the latter two greentexts that you could respond to
Really danger shield and moving is all that's needed there. Rockets certainly ain't doing much due to falloff. Nades have a natural range cap.

>>719116849
Each moment a sniper can't get a shot means the enemy team is that closer. Caps and falloff is irrelevant if one realizes pressure correctly.

>>719099750
>Sniper's counter being Sniper is just not a good idea
That's literally how it's done IRL, that and artillery.

>>719117387
>OMG le heckin' videogame with rocket jumping, blasting rockets back with gusts of air from a homemade flamethrower, a gun that shoots medical gas that can make people invicible and a gun that can go invisible and transform into a copy of another person has to be realistic!

>>719117497
A terrible argument.
All these can be done IRL with gizmos too, reality permits such phenomena.
Realism isn't synonymous with mundane.... you wanker.

>>719117497
>Can rocket jump, become invincible, turn invisible, and transform into other people
>Can't deal with a dude with a sniper rifle
Says more about you desu

>>719117131
>>719116558
You applied the nebulous concept of "pressure," inconveniencing the Sniper from freely and safely killing your team for 1-3 seconds (you are then killed by his team because you're focusing on the sniper instead of the imminent conflict.)
He clicks on your head and applies the very real concept of "killing you," removing you from the fight for as much as 30 seconds at no cost to himself other than the time it takes to click.

>>719117684
the dude with a sniper rifle has all those guys on his side too
he's always in a gay defensive position that takes more effort to breach than to reach and he's given performance potential equal to a risky positioned power class

>>719117749
t. doesn't understand physical laws
Lack of imagination, as expected of anti-sniper fags.
Can't make better or other things, therefore one must change others. Well, that's a tactic too. It's just boring when it comes to vidya.

>>719112009
>compfag 6v6 tier list
lmao

>>719096780 (OP)
Post female sniper

I automatically think anyone bitching about a game mechanic on 4chan is just a talentless loser and I will NOT change my mind.

>just don't anywhere near any objective lmao
do sniper fags really?

>3 good snipers on the enemy team
>my team can't leave spawn without eating 150 damage with zero counterplay
gonna keep using exploits until the smelly 300k+ kill sniper tranny swaps off or ragequits. sniper mains are scum and have been coddled by valve for years with not a single notable nerf.

>>719118101
I am trans and have never played a video game but interact with the fandoms 24/7 btw

>>719117819
This nebulous concept of pressure is the basic concept in any FPS, RTS, RTT, MOBAs, any competetive sport and actual warfare.
>by his team
And yours just does nothing? Everyone just stands there, no matter the team, their loadouts or the map they're on?
Rather static thought experiment you have there. I sure don't recall other parties to be so accomodating when I've played sniper.

>>719118027
>heavy
>good
despite all the whining and moaning about gru and the buffalo sandwich getting heavy to mid he still barely gets played.

>>719118141
>spies
>mass team exit to cover demo jump
>engis with pre-pack sentry
come ooon

In my experience, NA players are about 700% more likely to be thin-skinned faggots who can't take bants and will cry about "slurs" and shit. Just today I saw someone get banned for "threatening rape" because he said he would rape someone in the text chat.
Sadly the EU servers are often also hosted by the same Americans so EU servers have a fun atmosphere when it's just players, but then an admin shows up and shuts down the fun. Please use your guns to solve this issue.

>>719118425
>spies
dogshit class that stands zero chance against a good sniper.
>demo jump
demo gets bodyshot before or during the jump and dies.
>sentry
just delaying the inevitable.
easy to spam down from a distance when your team can't retake the flank.

>>719096780 (OP)
>Sightline is entire map
>Can't ever leave spawn

>>719118781
>dogshit class that stands zero chance against a good sniper.
Sounds like a skill issue to me.
>demo gets bodyshot before or during the jump and dies.
Or he doesn't. Because he's good at it, you know.
>just delaying the inevitable.
>easy to spam down from a distance when your team can't retake the flank.
Clearly one must think up solutions on the spot, hmmm?

>>719118302
>And yours just does nothing? Everyone just stands there, no matter the team, their loadouts or the map they're on?
That's every sniper discussion. The sniper player is a human aimbot with a better, coordinated team guarding him 24/7 and he's broken because you can't still reliably shut him down despite this.

>>719118902
>Sounds like a skill issue to me.
if you think spy is good you have the skill issue. absolute cuck of a class that can't do anything to a player with headphones and a brain who knows not to chase him around with melee like a retard.
>Or he doesn't. Because he's good at it, you know.
hitting a bodyshot is not difficult. one bodyshot and all your momentum is gone. not to mention he has to put down a sticky first telegraphing his jump.

>>719117131
What pressure though? The sniper doesn't have to worry that much about rockets because he does far more damage to the person firing the rockets than the rockets will do to him. And nades won't be hitting him at all.

Truth is when TF2 released the long range really was Sniper's domain. Flares came along as a really valuable challenge to that but then darwin's shield became a thing.

The answer is the bread and butter of beating sniper is always going to be in getting close. Which is mainly a problem when a lot of map designs really do fail when it comes to reliable flank routes.

>>719119221
>anything to a player with headphones
Can't crouch?
Can't pick your battles? Can't play with heads?
>not to mention he has to put down a sticky first telegraphing his jump.
Because that totally guarrantees a shot exactly into that demo, right?

>>719119109
>with a better, coordinated team guarding him 24/7
how to be unkillable as sniper
>stand next to teammate or a sentry
WOW SO MUCH SKILL SO GOOD AT GAME THIS IS HIGH LEVEL TEAMPLAY

>>719098728
sup bitch

>>719119456
Bring back amby or sandman, if you really need a technical counter that much.
Or original Bonk (was Bonk nerfed or not? I can't recall). Or first mini-sentry.
Or even charge-n-targe charge glitch and modify it to be balanced.

I play sniper in honor of a guy that used to top score as sniper every game and post "remove sniper" after every kill. If they have to see the power to believe it, then I will show them.

>>719119562
>Can't crouch?
are you crouchwalking the whole time? holy shit LMAO. yeah good luck he might die of old age by the time you get there.
>Because that totally guarrantees a shot exactly into that demo, right?
>coordinating a team in a pub
yet another sniper main thinks it's fair the enemy team has to coordinate a seal team six strike on his ass to kill him but standing near a sentry or pyro is the peak of skilled gameplay.

>>719118781
>actually in my hypothetical scenario, you get headshot the moment you press comma + 4 on your keyboard
>checkmate atheists

>>719119875
>hitting a bodyshot on a telegraphed sticky jump is very hard guys also red is my favorite flavor of crayon

>>719119950
Do you even play TF2? There's so much chaos going on in the course of a game, especially for a Sniper, that he's not even going to see it coming.

>>719119851
You don't need to coordinate, you can just wait until your team member runs through the same point where you put stickies.

>>719120086
you have never played against a good sniper much less several of them on one team.

>>719120086
Sniper has the easiest time seeing things coming because he has very few things he needs to be looking out for

>>719118781
>dogshit class that stands zero chance against a good sniper.
So you're bad at spy then lmao
>demo gets bodyshot before or during the jump and dies
And you're bad at demo

What a surprise that the sniper whiner sucks at the game. Probably doesn't know how to counter snipe either

>>719118781
Anon don't bother. Sniperfags look for every excuse under the book, even the worst and least justifiable ones, to make it seem like it's clearly them being skilled and everyone else being inferior subhumans who just can't play the game right. It's an ego thing, y'know

>>719120152
Have you played against good spies, demos or soldiers?
>bad class
No excuses.

>>719120236
Sniper's also the only class that literally gets tunnel-vision in order to do anything, and even when he's aware of multiple threats incoming, he has no ability to take care of them at the same time, relatively speaking.

>>719120152
I am the good sniper and I can tell you for a fact that good demos, spies, pyros, soldiers and other snipers are plenty of a problem. If you think otherwise it's because skill issue

>>719120319
There's no reasoning with these shitters, just gotta accept that shitters exist and will whine and try to ruin every game they play and hope the devs are smart enough not to listen.

>>719096780 (OP)
sniper and spy could seriously be combined into one class and probably would be in a new game

>>719120373
you don't hardscope as sniper dummy
that's not how anyone even remotely competent plays the class, they just spam quickscopes

>>719120517
Amby spy

>>719120517
>tfw no civilian

>>719120373
>tunnel vision
You moron. Snipers don't hardscope, they quickscope which doesn't have them suffering from tunnel vision. This is why they aren't really threatened by Spies as they are constantly Spychecking and keeping tabs on their environment, and also allows them to avoid flanking Scouts even on good maps

>>719120528
Tell me another class that gets his peripheral vision cut off in order to do his main job.

>>719120631
snipers only hold the scope for heavies and medic bodyshots
they're not tunnelvisioned, quickscopes only take 0.2s of scope time, you spend the vast majority of the time reloading, seeing everything

>>719120598
Another predictable midwit response. The original argument was that Sniper has the easiest time seeing things coming, when that's objectively false because, relatively speaking, his main attack is the only one in the game where his vision gets cut off temporarily. The fact that most good Snipers quickscope does not take away from the point, and even if he's zoomed in for 1 second, that's an eternity in TF2.

>>719120372
spy is garbage if you know how trickstabs work. anyone who whines about spy has not taken five minutes to research trickstabs because they would rather bitch and moan about "muh interp muh facestabs" than learn how to counter it. not a single time in all my hours have I ever played against a spy that was a serious threat. at worst he would farm my teammates and I would have to swap to pyro for a few minutes until he ragequits. demo and soldier can be oppressive but they still have to get close and you can out DM them with multiple classes or just spam short circuit out of spawn and let someone else kill them. sniper's only counter is another sniper and I don't want to become a sniper main just so I can leave my fucking spawn when one of these faggots joins the other team.

>>719120373
I don't think the tunnel vision is anywhere near the downside it's meant to be. Unscope and look around a lot. Sure, he can't hold a point all by himself, if the enemy team runs in your direction and you don't have anyone in front of you you have to run away. Multiple simultaneous attacks targeted towards the Sniper specifically though are so rare, and the only effective ones are two snipers. Everyone else takes too long to reach you.

>>719096780 (OP)
Sniper's main issues are
>Visibility (nearly impossible to ever see him coming, even more than Spy who is supposed to be the stealth class)
>Low-Skill options (bodyshotting still dealing 150 damage, Sydney Sleep, Razorback, etc.)
>Engineer existing (makes flanking him nearly impossible when Sentries exist and fighting sentries is 10 times harder when Sniper exists)

>>719120319
>I can't hit a bodyshot but youre the one who's bad at the game
ok lil bro

>>719120997
Speak for yourself lil bro , I'm the guy that makes people rage quit. Not even a sniper main I've just been playing fps games since I was 6. Good snipers can be countered by several different classes including other snipers lol just git gud

>>719120847
Or maybe you've never met good spies that know how they can be countered?
All I see is irrational excuses. Top tier snipers are a bitch to deal with, but they are not unkillable, or more importantly, they don't make game unwinnable, most of the time.

Sniper's problem has been and always be, his other items. AKA Jarate/Bushwhacka completely negate his weakness of close range combat because it means getting the jump on him becomes a whole lot harder when you gotta deal with potentially one-shot in melee range. Not to mention the dangershield just shitting all over pyro for no reason.

>>719120429
You speak the truth , hoes mad as usual

>>719121141
Every time I see someone whining in the in-game chat about a Sniper, they're always middle of the scoreboard-type players. I think it's analogous to other real-life comparisons myself.

>>719120816
>The fact that most good Snipers quickscope does not take away from the point
Holy fucking shit the copium is running hard. "The original argument is that Snipers are aware of their environment, and indeed most Snipers are because they quickscope, but because the intended way has him hardscope that nullifies your argument" kek. Actually go back to preschool, you'd make some friends there too
>even if he's zoomed in for 1 second, that's an eternity in TF2
No it fucking isn't. Stop trying to act all clever and face the fucking fact that Sniper is not balanced at all. I know it hurts your feefees because you think you're so skilled and everyone else is just retarded but here's a dose of reality: you're abusing a class that's so easy to play and dominate with, it was used by botters to completely shut down TF2 for years. No other class did that, other bots managed to be put down easily but Sniper bots completely dominated the servers because there is no cooldown between Sniper clicking the right mouse button and being able to do 150hp of damage on anyone instantly, regardless of distance, before going back and being able to look at his surroundings destroying his supposed "tunnel vision"

>>719121317
>"The original argument is that Snipers are aware of their environment, and indeed most Snipers are because they quickscope, but because the intended way has him hardscope that nullifies your argument" kek.
Who are you quoting?
>you're abusing a class that's so easy to play and dominate with
Would it be shocking for you to learn that Sniper is my least played class? He's boring to play, but I love playing against him.
>it was used by botters to completely shut down TF2 for years.
Here we go again with balancing the game around what botters do. Botters were a matchmaking problem because of how a matchmaking server loads in new players at once instead of ad-hoc servers. How about we fix that instead of removing classes?
> there is no cooldown between Sniper clicking the right mouse button and being able to do 150hp of damage on anyone instantly, regardless of distance
You're right, such a ridiculous upside that no other class can do, what were the devs thinking? It's a shame other classes don't have insane mobility options in the form of explosive jumping, higher health pools, crowd control, double jumping, rapid spam, etc.

>>719121690
*etc. to balance it out

>>719121170
>Or maybe you've never met good spies that know how they can be countered?
And then what? Spy's only options are his gun which is outclassed by any combat class, trickstabs which only work if you can bait someone into melee, or running away. He is the weakest class for a reason.

>>719121197
That, and also the fact that many Sniper-annoyance weapons for other classes have been nerfed into oblivion.

>>719121170
spy ain't winning a 2v1 against a razorback sniper sitting in a sentry sightline and an engineer watching that sentry

>>719113267
>>While said sniper is picking off your team's highest value targets

>>719098715
But enough about spy

>>719121793
He's the weakest precisely because he can reliably kill in one hit and get the job done.
Do you really need hard boosts? One can just add new unlocks, bring back old up to par. That's it.

>>719121979
All Spy needs is the same thing every class needs, for the old versions of his weapon unlocks to be reverted.

>>719113407
How is realism fun?

>>719121876
That depends on a lot, opening up nests is hard.

>>719121197
Even on stock it's still bullshit how he can quickscope faster than the average player can react. The only thing holding sniper back from just walking around quickscoping every thing he sees is his own skill. Even if it is technically 'balanced' it's shit game design how uninteractive and unfun of a matchup it is. You have no real way of knowing if a sniper is about to slide around a corner and dome you, if he peeks you it is impossible to duck back into cover before he can headshot you, and if he misses the only class other than sniper that can immediately close the gap to punish him is a soldier.

>>719121690
>How about we fix that instead of removing classes?
It isn't about removing Sniper, it's about making him bearable to play against. I have directly suggested just nerfing his quickscopes which would fix literally 90% of problems with Sniper while keeping him a strong class that can seriously help a match. Just fucking force Snipers to hardscope like Valve intended instead of being able to quickscope like pussies
>insane mobility options
How are mobility options comparable to being able to instantly kill light classes and seriously injure medium-heavy classes from anywhere in the map?
>explosive jumping
Not overpowered at all. Good mobility option but at tradeoff for health or a secondary if you use the Gunboats. Certainly helps Soldiers and Demos but can easily be fought against
>higher health pools
Which have weaknesses attached. The higher the healthpool, the slower and more vulnerable the class is, ultimately culminating with Heavy who needs to learn positioning and health management to not be easy prey to anyone else
>crowd control
Heavily depends on the class and on the map. Crowd control is good on Dustbowl but pretty useless on other, more open maps. And even then it isn't overpowered
>double jumping
Kek Scout is nowhere near as OP as Sniper. He's actually extremely vulnerable even when played by experts. Glass cannon for sure
>rapid spam
Of what? Stickies? Because those can be easily countered by a lot of classes like Heavy or Pyro

Yeah none of those come close to what Sniper has, which has virtually zero downsides and whose only real counter since Spies and other classes will be awful against a good Sniper is picking Sniper and winning the duel. Basically you're forced to play Sniper to beat Sniper, or else he shuts down the whole match. Incredible

>>719118141
>exploits
>posts cheats

>>719121876
Just take care of one thing at a time, fuck. Deal with the Engi and his nest first, even if a Sniper notices you, you can cloak away and he doesn't have a jarate to track you.

>>719122220
it's just a skin like any other mod and sv_pure is trivial to bypass without hacks.

>>719122203
>just nerfing
Just make new unlock packs.
No need to nerf snipers, gimping challenge is fucking boring.

>>719122281
That's not "winning" against the sniper though. That would be killing him.

>>719118141
cringe cheatranny

>>719120517
Please do not do that (again).

>>719122369
>Just release more shitty, unbalanced weapon packs that nobody will use
Great idea, because clearly we aren't fucking bloated with shit weapons which were meant to do something but ended up being fucking useless or used for memes.
TF2 does not need more useless bloat. Snipers aren't a challenge, a challenge is fair. Snipers in their current incarnation are just awful and a nerf like what I propose would retain them being a very notable threat without allowing them to get away with controlling an entire match like they are able to do currently.

50% of the time when i try playing tf2 now one team has an obvious script kiddie carrying the team and 3/4 of the server doesn't even speak english nevermind nooooticing that the soldier who throws a coincidental crit rocket at every attempted flank and has 200 points while the guy in 2nd has 40 might be fucky, and it makes me sad

>>719098903
>The class is strong but it's nowhere near where the retards that get their opinions from their ecelebds think it is
Fag that played highlander plat for more than a few seasons: there are more than a handful of maps where he is so oppressive that he's arguably on the same pick priority as demoman and sometimes on the same pick priority as medic. It's really telling when a game on like Viaduct is decided almost entirely by which sniper wins the duel, because after yours is dead the game can sometimes come to a total fucking halt where your team is ducked off behind cover trying to beat back divers and you have to either hope your sniper will get theirs next spawn, or your spy can do some kinda play because their sniper positioned like a retard/the spy manages to dm him effectivity (because they're almost always razorback in highlander and I'll always seethe like a nigger that secondary exists). Sniper is arguably more fair the more players there are of varying skill levels, but the smaller you get on teams and the higher skill the teams become, the more of a pain in the fucking dick he is. There's a reason why you'll sometimes see him on defense plays in 6s instead of a second soldier or scout, and that's because at his max potential on certain maps he can do everything the autistic YouTube talking heads say. Not every player and not every map, but the difference between him and the baguette as support classes is staggering, and worst part is, I have no idea how to fix Sniper without making him dogshit or buff Spy without making the new player experience against them even more hell on earth. They're both relics of respective times in tf2's history in a way to me

>>719122281
and all this time the sniper is just afk and not raping your team.

Sniper should be nerf in ways that don’t impact skilled Snipers
>Bodyshots now have reduced damage by 20% (deals 120 damage for rifles and 96 damage for Huntsman), while headshots are unchanged
>No longer able to deal random crits
>The Razorbacks’s function is disabled when inside friendly sentry sightlines and decreases Sniper’s HP by -30
>Jarate recharge now works like banners where you start at 0 and need to deal damage to charge it
>Bushwacka loses its positive stat buff if equiped with jarate but still keeps the drawback
All these nerfs tackle some of Sniper’s biggest problems, but bitching about them means you’re a dogshit sniper with no skill since none if these changes impact skilled snipers.

If sniper can be passively immune to backstabs and fire
Heavy should have an unlock that makes him passively immune to headshots

>>719122203
>Just fucking force Snipers to hardscope
Most shitters would admit to this not solving Sniper's fundamental issue, people will still whine about it because they think instant deaths are solely a Sniper issue and not something that happens a dozen times throughout the course of a match for even the best players
>How are mobility options comparable
Being able to zip across the map at mach 5 speed while retaining high, reliable burst damage is pretty fucking powerful actually. I'll let Sniper mains have their instant kills because it's such a low percentage play against people who use cover efficiently and know how to watch their angles as they fight others.
>Kek Scout is nowhere near as OP as Sniper. He's actually extremely vulnerable even when played by experts.
Depends on the map and game situation like any class, just like Heavy is more powerful when you have a reliable teleporter to use.
>everything else
Sure, but what's the point? I'm not saying Sniper is underpowered, just that he's balanced. Every class has their strengths and weakness, some need to play the positioning game more like Heavy, some are soft countered in this or that situation. Sniper is definitely not immune to this. There's a lot of situations where a Sniper wouldn't be the right choice no matter how good his upside is of being able to instakill at any range because if your team doesn't have the right composition, you'll never be able to get comfortable. If your team doesn't have enough bodies on the frontline or enough support, even the best Snipers will only get 1 or 2 kills off before being overrun.
>Yeah none of those come close to what Sniper has, which has virtually zero downsides
That's just total bullshit and you know it. If Sniper is so great on his own and just this unstoppable killing machine, he'd take over servers and no one would be able to stop him.

>>719122958
I fucking hate the idea that because someone is "skilled", it means he deserves to be able to shut down a whole fucking game. Skilled Scouts can't shut down a game. Skilled Soldiers, Demos, Heavies, Engies, even fucking Medics can't shut down a game. No, only Sniper is able to completely fucking destroy a game, and it's fair because it's "skilled" even though it's far less skilled than the rest of the classes
Fuck off. Sniper should be nerfed BASED on how skilled players abuse him to destroy a whole game, not on how fucking loser Gibus Snipers kill two Spies and then fail at doing anything else.

>>719123241
>Skilled Soldiers, Demos, Heavies, Engies, even fucking Medics can't shut down a game
you are off your rocker

>>719122817
What's he going to do after you backstab the Engi and put a sapper on his shit and cloak away? At most he'll fire a lucky hipfire 50 dmg shot that gets you, and then that's it. Now he's a sitting duck for 3 quick revolver shots the next time he scopes in.

>>719122687
>turn corner into a revved Heavy who mows you down before you can even react
>turn corner into a sticky trap
>turn corner and get backstabbed by a Spy
Delete Heavy, Demo and Spy too. Bullshit deaths. Delete random crits too.

>>719099571
Enforcer I find way more useful at this point. I loved how nobody gave a single fuck about the Ambassador having headshot range as far as it did until some nigger that played engineer in comp cried about it. God forbid spy had a way to take down fags that build in spots he can't reach like roof on b point gpit, I guess

>>719123241
>I fucking hate the idea that because someone is "skilled", it means he deserves to be able to shut down a whole fucking game.
Good thing that never actually happens in TF2. If you're losing to a Sniper, the other team is better, simple as.

>>719123194
>people will still whine about it because they think instant deaths are solely a Sniper issue
No because it would mean the Sniper is far more vulnerable and has to plan his shots. Players "whine" because a Sniper can literally come up to you in a hallway, headshot you, and boom you're fucking dead even though he's supposed to be weak at close range
>Being able to zip across the map at mach 5 speed while retaining high, reliable burst damage is pretty fucking powerful actually
Rollouts aren't as strong as you are making them out to be. In fact, rocket jumping is pretty much a skill the average Soldier has nowadays and it isn't a massive deal. Remember that it takes away huge chunks of your health even with the Gunboats which also remove an amazing secondary option
>Depends on the map and game situation like any class
Yes but none are like Sniper
>If your team doesn't have enough bodies on the frontline or enough support, even the best Snipers will only get 1 or 2 kills off before being overrun
Yeah no this is not the case. It is demonstrable that Snipers can turn whole games around just by existing. Just watch your average FatMagic or other Sniper main channel, you'll see how easily a Sniper can completely shut down a game on his lonesome. "Getting overrun" does not happen because coordination is not a common thing in casual TF2
>If Sniper is so great on his own and just this unstoppable killing machine, he'd take over servers and no one would be able to stop him
This very much happens with expert Snipers. They are able to dominate so hard and shut down anyone with no counterplay. Again actually watch fucking footage of Snipers dominating

>>719100657
Fortnite has bullet drop and their snipers at least aren't hitscan so that's a big improvement too. The glare is just a cherry on top.
Shame the game is autistic about changing weapons every fucking season so you can't really learn anything unusual like bows

>>719122776
>I have no idea how to fix Sniper without making him dogshit
Just give him more downtime and nerf quickscopes. Any combat class catches sniper with his pants down at close range he should be fucked, end of story. Reduce his reserve ammo so he has to go get ammo more frequently, make him slower so it's harder for him to get into position or run away, every shot should have the classic tracer so he is easier to counter snipe or highbomb. Make it take longer to scope in but he doesn't unscope to reload encouraging hardscoping.

After that all that needs to be done is delete his most broken unlocks. If he is forced to scope in more and doesn't have the razorback a spy can consistently kill him. He should be like heavy or engie. A powerful but otherwise stationary threat that struggles on the offensive. In my mind how sniper and spy should be balanced is sniper is more straightforward and defensive pick class while spy is a bit slower but once he's in the backline can cause chaos with support abilities and drawing attention away from the front.

>>719101851
I'm a spy main and demo is a higher skill indexed class than sniper ever could hope to be, fuck out of here

>>719113407
Fucking take your rifle and blow your brains out irl

anyone else hating how pyro can go from flaming to reflecting in 0 ticks? i get how his gimmick is to make it harder to read the field but fucking hell, i'd rather make him stronger in any other way because that's aids

>>719124085
no

>>719118714
Every fucking time on UGC.

>>719120373
>hardscoping as sniper
Anon?

>>719099084
Oh I respect them alright.
>>719122572
>Great idea, because clearly we aren't fucking bloated
>bloated
Foolish, there is no such thing as too many weapons. Absolutely ridiculous, tf2 doesn't have even Ballistic Weapons amount of guns. But it sure has fucking hats.
>with shit weapons which were meant to do something but ended up being fucking useless or used for memes.
Well, golly gee, who nerfed all these tools?
Could it be that somebody wants to reduce a game to their personal vision of rock (rock)-paper (rock)-scissors (also rock) balance of indistinction for frigid man-logs? Whose hubhub caused all this?
And why did no one, in all these years, ask for boosts? Why does Valve not run patches, mutation servers to routinely re-test balance? Why is the community is so limp if this is so much of an issue?


Changing core mechanics ruins quintessense of the game's V.1. It's unsightly and unartistic.
Ruining a perfectly serviceable and dynamically mutable beautiful asymmetry into "balance" is tasteless and also unartistic.
Not making new unlocks and expanding options, even new mechanics if necessary? That's plain unimaginative. New tactical options is quite literally the universal solution to any unbeatable class scenario, and what do you have, huh?
How many cool community-made weapons were tossed into the bin, huh? Real fun.


Here's an genius idea for you, you ever played Prototype?
Remember the finger point trick?
Give Spy an Inverse Disguise Kit.
At any range he can make another target look like any other character of any team.
When masking enemies, that activates friendly fire on them, and all sentries instantly count him as an enemy.
Literal Ruse Master tier.

>>719124085
you have lots of options to counterplay reflect happy pyros is not that hard to deal with if you know what you're doing. airblast stunning you and sending you flying into the stratosphere at times is what's really bullshit.

>>719121170
A great spy can make a great razorback sniper a 70/30 match up at best. It's not as much of a 100% slam dunk in Spy's favor as you're acting. The good sniper is not hard scoping. I don't understand how this is hard to understand. He's going to flick in, glance about and move somewhat erratically. You're going to need to get in position, usually hump a wall nearby to mask your cloak volume, walk to him, and take him down all while he's doing that. And it's all so he can maybe die, wait about 15 seconds, then waddle 3 inches from spawn and be a problem again

>last bought shit 7 years ago
>look at my inventory
>the value pentupled
>the naked medic chest is now 45 keys
>the random civilian grade sniper rifle i only got for completion which i fitted a stat clock on is 18 keys
>strange kunai is 5 keys
>strange quick fix is 3 keys
what the fuck happened
i bought everything except the medic chest for pennies back then

>>719123646
>Just watch your average FatMagic or other Sniper main channel
You're only seeing the best bits most of the time, not all the misses unless it's a video where someone's seething and there's no cuts.

>>719118714
>playing tf2 at 3am
>have ironic gay sex name
>see another guy with ironic retarded name
>start saying gay retarded shit with him
>make a friend
>other people start saying disgusting gay shit too about eating men's asses
>seems great
>realize one of them isn't joking
>it's a real homosexual
>the gay shit becomes too real
>another player joins
>it's a tranny
>tranny joins in with the fag
>they start saying just plain gross gay stuff to eachother with no irony
>my original retarded fake gay friend says "tranny" once
>the gay and tranny start freaking out
>somehow they turn the other players against him
>they votekick him
>say nigger until they votekick me too

>>719124464
>Could it be that somebody wants to reduce a game to their personal vision of rock (rock)-paper (rock)-scissors (also rock) balance of indistinction for frigid man-logs?
TF2 WAS rock-paper-scissors at release, and during a lot of the earlier updates, before Valve started wanting more money rather than a fun game. A game like TF2 is inherently based upon balance and counters, this is in the fucking developer commentary which you probably haven't heard of
>Why does Valve not run patches, mutation servers to routinely re-test balance?
Valve doesn't give a shit about TF2 anymore. I mean they don't even care about CS2 which is extremely recent, imagine thinking they care about a game they let rot with cheaters for more than five years untl they got tired of the movements the fans started making, and nowadays still don't care about removing the cancer that is casual mode/MvM and bringing back quickplay
>Why is the community is so limp if this is so much of an issue?
This is the nature of the TF2 fanbase, they only started asking Valve to get rid of bots five years down the line
>Changing core mechanics ruins quintessense of the game's V.1. It's unsightly and unartistic
What I'm suggesting is how Valve INTENDED Sniper to be played. You have to be a dullard to think that modern Sniper and quickscoping was something they planned for. It isn't, much like trickstabs also were not planned for

>>719124767
And yet no other channel is like Sniper main channels. You won't see Swipez completely carry a whole team. You won't see B4nny go on ninety-people killstreaks. It's only the Sniper channels that have them doing insane stunts, because the class is naturally broken, regardless of if they cut down some of the more embarrassing moments.

>>719124945
spy mains provide kino of the highest order
https://youtu.be/8gvlymYpq9U

>>719122776
>Fag that played highlander plat
Who gives a shit? I don't get why people think a community game mode that plays nothing like regular matches or even the official competitive mode is relevant to game balance. I don't care if sniper isn't balanced for the meme 9v9 matches where he can't potentially have three soldiers with two medics jumping his ass and you're a retard for using your experience in that to try and sound like an authority. Even worse when your argument is that he's 'arguably', 'sometimes' as important of a pick as two other essential classes and that he's sometimes used in 6s instead of having two of another class. Yeah, sounds like a real broken character.

>>719125171
>i don't care if sniper is unbalanced at the highest level that still approximates an average pub because he's fine when a newborn is piloting him

>>719124803
Average Heavy player

>bombs you for 165
nothing personnel kid

>>719125171
Oh so you're retarded. Carry on, fag boy

>>719124803
anon... your gay

>>719124945
>You have to be a dullard to think that modern Sniper and quickscoping was something they planned for
Nigga, they nerfed sniper rifles headshot mechanic near launch by adding a forced delay because they thought people back then were quickscoping too fast. Quickscoping was also a thing in CS where great players were already competing for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Valve absolutely knew people could aim and it's ridiculous to suggest they intended snipers to just hardscope 24/7.

>>719125171
>that plays nothing like regular matches
Surely every class being played is very how regular matches were intended to be?

I suppose the bigger question is, if you took that high skilled sniper in the highlander game and plopped him in a random pub running the same badly designed maps would you expect the situation to change? I think it would be more likely he'd end up being even more effective.

>>719123241
Any and all classes deserve to be able shut the game, by skills and by loadouts.
A military game's appeal is in CHAOS, not in fitting into slots.
If you play not for fun and win, but for extremely narrow mechanical measurement compliance, you lose the appeal of the game, because in the end there shall be only compfags revelling in their mastery of their finite systems. Balance is far more sophisticated than "nerfs".
>>719122070
Fantasy, in classic definition, is that which doesn't exist in reality.
But this definition works only on the surface. It's a term that operates on comparison of life states of a thing, not actuation.
Conceptually, realism and fantasy concern the same thing, and this is where actual realism differs from fantasy. In order for reality to be proper, it must be of intelligent design. That in turn means it already has perfection either in it, or in the works.
Fantasy is a lie, realism is the truth.
When an artist paints a picture, they can paint anything on their canvas, because that canvas is perfect by nature. That is realism. It facilitates any fantasies. Hence why it is better.

holy shit guys i found a fucking hat

>>719122776
>there are more than a handful of maps where he is so oppressive that he's arguably on the same pick priority as demoman and sometimes on the same pick priority as medic
And yet, demoman and medic are somehow 1000% ok to play as.
>B-but it's THEIR job to be completely overpowered!

>>719124085
>>719124559
Imagine seething about stock fucking pyro.

>>719125736
But he said "no homo".

>>719126310
Yes, because they have to actually get to mid range to do their stomping, an area where there's risk and reward to their engagements

>>719124945
>TF2 WAS rock-paper-scissors at release, and during a lot of the earlier updates, before Valve started wanting more money rather than a fun game. A game like TF2 is inherently based upon balance and counters
Oh, but you see, the game could've been played in unintended ways even back then. Their de-facto implementation of rock-scissors was not without non-linear intricancies that exit its purview, at least as far as I recall 2007-8. There's more to balance than just raw X vs Ys mechanical balance, as tautological as it sounds. The point here is that approaching balance from equalization standpoint is faulty at the core. One must also, after all else, make things BANG well, otherwise the game loses its essense. An impotent gun isn't going to be used by most.
>fucking developer commentary which you probably haven't heard of
I've never bothered with them, actually. I just played.
>I mean they don't even care about CS2 which is extremely recent, imagine thinking they care about a game they let rot with cheaters for more than five years untl they got tired of the movements the fans started making
That bad, huh? I only played 1.5/1.6/Source decade ago, wouldn't know. But I sure disliked CSGO on principle. Skin markets, really?
>they only started asking Valve to get rid of bots five years down the line
Five? Wew. Weren't they better than this early on? Are merchants and compfags all that's left?
>What I'm suggesting is how Valve INTENDED Sniper to be played. You have to be a dullard to think that modern Sniper and quickscoping was something they planned for. It isn't, much like trickstabs also were not planned for
One can actually plan these. Test too. One can even make new ones.

Emergent properties and successes born of mistakes are part of the charm. Imagine no bunny hopping, yeah?
These things exist and are cool. They should. They are not the problem. Mechanical incongruity in poor configs is. Change loadouts, make more, and the problem is solved.

>>719124751
The TF2 market is basically turbo dead and most of those prices are a result of bagholders desperately trying to pass the bag by making items look sought after.

>>719100657
Battlefield did this a decade ago when you were still breastfeeding ZOOMER

>>719126756
ok compgroid

>>719123790
>Delete the class that will fix it
*yawn*

>>719125282
>that still approximates an average pub
Yeah, a pub with hard class limits and only 9v9. Sure, there's lots of those and that has no impact on how the game plays.
>>719125632
Great argument.
>>719125821
>Surely every class being played is very how regular matches were intended to be?
There are more player slots on a casual server than classes in the game. I think it's reasonable to assume Valve fully expected there to be overlap and matches where some classes didn't even see play or got stacked rather than assuming random pubs would regularly form even distributions. And even if we want to assume otherwise, those three additional players that can pick freely still greatly changes how the matches play out and what the meta would be especially given that players in highlander literally don't have a choice in team comp. Do you think CS and Dota wouldn't be very different games with different strategies even if they did nothing but boost the player count in ranked up to 7v7?
>would you expect the situation to change?
If you took two teams of highly skilled players and made them compete them in a 12v12 match with no class limits? Yes, I do not think sniper would be the most problematic class and it'd be very different from a typical match of highlander. I don't get why you're trying to suggest it's a problem that a highly skilled player can run rampant in a random pub with mediocre players or that it means the class he's playing must be imbalanced. How is that a fair example? How is that even a bad thing? Should skill just not matter in PvP games anymore?

>>719107632
I don't think I've ever, in my life, seen a single pyro player with a hale's own scorch shot. I've got 1.5k hours on pyro alone. I've got a hale's own flare gun?
Also the game is still fun, cry about it.

>>719127214
i'm getting there but only at server clearing

>>719096780 (OP)
he cant singlehandely win games like medic or scout can

>>719096780 (OP)
>faggot essay youtubers become an epidemic
>Uhh this class kill me and I can't do anything about it
>no I will not learn to avoid it, remove him and pay me to play competitive

>>719127069
>If you took two teams of highly skilled players and made them compete them in a 12v12 match with no class limits?
If they're highly skilled they aren't likely to bother with a pub-like class composition though.

If you kept the skill but still required them to use classes fitting for a pub-environment. Yeah I would expect a similar situation. It's not that different from highlander after all.

>>719100657
that doesnt matter if u cant do shit about him cos hes on the other side of the map

>>719123701
bullet drop is kinda pointless once you 'learn' it, but projectile speed is maybe useful.

>>719125506
would be nice to use if it just didnt have the autistic delayed single rocket, but still had the 3 rocket barrage.

>>719096780 (OP)
I hate the 15 year olds on this board

I feel like the basic takeaway from TF2 is that strict class roles and baked in class counters don't even slightly gel with alternate loadouts that change the function and counters of your class.
This goes triple for pocket weapons that you can't actually see. The game design goals of launch TF2 would've never supported the idea of an invisible item on you that makes you immune to something and can't be detected until the immunity kicks in. Fighting a class out of their element and then they suddenly pull out the "homos helper" and they simply rocket into the air, safe away from you at no cost. You clearly should've used the poofters pounder on him, the direct counter to a homos helper user!

>>719128550
>If you kept the skill but still required them to use classes fitting for a pub-environment
>It's not that different from highlander after all.
Even if you otherwise force highlander rules but throw in three free player slots, that'd still leave three players that can pick and stack whatever they want. Do you really think it wouldn't be much different from highlander if both teams got, say, another medic along with a soldier and demoman? Which also isn't even at all uncommon in a 12v12 pub. I think you're greatly underestimating how much three more players that can actually pick what they want changes things.

And you're not addressing my question of why is it an issue if a highly skilled player can dominate on a class in a random pub with average players.

>>719129279
what are u referring to? razorback is probably the most gay hard counter, though gun spy is quite fun to play.

>>719129279
an unlock that removes one counter should always replace it with another. sniper mains want to ignore spies with the razorback? okay you can have it but let's say it has an explosive damage vulnerability. Now you have to choose between being vulnerable to spies or getting raped by soldier/demo spam.

>>719129279
>The game design goals of launch TF2 would've never supported the idea of an invisible item
Irrelevant, these things can be intuited at any time in a second, this isn't secret intel tier issue.
And technically you only see active items at any time concerning weapons at least.

>>719129712
>an unlock that removes one counter should always replace it with another.
Nah, unintuitive tape work bullshit. Not always. A weapon should be as expected, not working on lunar cycles.
Make a set of general counters and universal unlocks for all, most classes, or differentiated by their category, or intended play style.
You already lock out options by taking a slot.
Bring back grenades, add mines.

>>719129651
Spy's icicle and soldiers literal escape plan, for example. The whole point is that if you get them dead to rights, they're likely doomed. A soldier at low health can't rocket jump and becomes a big target. That's intentional. Now literally every soldier can zoom the fuck away from a bad situation, from having an item waiting in his pocket.
>>719129712
I don't even like that, I don't want to have to guess what someones counter is sitting in their pocket. I don't want to have a fifty-fifty for every engagement to whether my actions are actually secretly all wrong.
>>719129843
Icicle.

Worst part is, you've probably encountered a period with the item servers down, and the game is so much better. Those four days or so a while back where everyone had to run stock was the best the game had been in years. You could literally look at a class... and tell how they worked! Crazy!

>>719130049
>I don't even like that, I don't want to have to guess what someones counter is sitting in their pocket
razorback is visible on the player model.

>>719129712
items doing stat buffs/debuffs is retarded though it should just be part of the class always, like how pyro is immune to other pyros.
or for example if heavy had a riot shield instead of fist weapons, that would act like fists of steel and also still be outplayed by going above/behind the shield.

>>719130081
I didn't say that was the only problem, I said it's worse when it's invisible. It's still bad. Being able to see the big stupid class counter hanging off someone doesn't make it more appealing.

How do Snipermains justify someone Sniper's unlocks?
Like the shields are shit sure but are also stupid in design. But more importantly how exactly do they justify Jarate and Bushwacka?
Like in 1 weapon, you get both a spy checking tool, a fire extinguishing tool, and a buff banner takes 20 seconds to recharge and can be refilled instantly with resupply.
Then you have 1 weapon, which when paired with the piss jar, lets Sniper deal 195 damage on his melee multiple times in fact. That pretty much invalidating Sniper's biggest built in weakness.
Then to add insult to injury we have fucking Pyro who is supposed to be a close range specialist and both weapons similar to the Bushwacka have a damage penalty and his "Jarate" is a liquid that sets people on fire (on the class that can set people on fire already) and recharges way slower.

>>719130525
Jarate/Bushwacka takes some reflex and timing to use properly. The shields are worse because sniper just plops them on and he's guaranteed immune to backstabs/afterburn.

>>719130049
i dont think dying to afterburn is particularly fun either though. and i dont think soldier should take damage from rocket jumps, its too counterintuitive i think. of course when u are big dick soldier like myself u know to just camp health packs so the health is almost irrelevant, but i think its needlessly overcomplicated. i always use whip because it rapes as a melee weapon (extremely long range) and also helps speed my team up.

>>719130525
jarate is honestly not very good. you are hardly going to be in a spot to throw it on cooldown, since ur probably sitting at the back of the map sniping...
you can just rape spys with default melee, it crits half the time without any need for jarate rofl

>>719130748
>jarate is honestly not very good

>>719129576
>And you're not addressing my question of why is it an issue if a highly skilled player can dominate on a class in a random pub with average players.
Because it was completely aside from the argument of how much highlander resembles a pub game. But if you really must push to have that argument, then yes. It would actually improve what's meant to be a fun casual shooter if pubstompers weren't able to be too obnoxious.

Keep in mind I said "too obnoxious", I never said the simple idea of a good player being able to play well was the problem. Thing is loads of people do find sniper particularly obnoxious when they're really good at the class.

>>719130875
if the SMG was even slightly buffed, i would use it almost always over all the other shit. jarate included.

>>719131007
I mainly use the SMG because it's just more fun but Jarate is easily one of the most overpowered unlocks in the game with how many applications it has and how spammable it is. I have won countless games on last just spamming jarate from the resupply locker.

>>719130962
>>719129576
sniper is unfun for the same reason being spawn camped by stickies is unfun. its simple, walking around a corner and being insta killed by a headshot is retarded.

>>719130652
>Some reflexes and timing
>Jarate+Bushwacka
Lmao. You jarate in the general direction of an enemy and start spamming the Bushwacka and hope melee hit detection kicks in.
And you don't even need to use the Bushwacka at all. You Jarate a group of enemies on the objective, and boom you gave your team a free Buff Banner.

>>719130525
I tend to side with the people who have problems with sniper but I will defend the jarate/bushwacka combo because it's basically a gimmick. Anyone dying to it let themselves get melee'd by a sniper when they were basically warned by the initial throw of the jarate and his melee can one-shot you.

>>719132019
yeah the last time i tried to gank a heavy with jarate he just turned around and deleted me in 1 second

All they had to do to make matchmaking and pubstomping feel less egregious is to keep team scramble. Surely it shouldn't be too difficult to add it back in

>>719132323
scramble is retarded, if you cant handle losing why are you playing a pvp game?

>>719096780 (OP)
no I'm just not going to play the game because he's in it

>>719132382
yeah, real fun playing a pvp game where the entire enemy team requeues after 1 loss leaving the server half dead for the majority of the next round while the matchmaker struggles to find people

>>719132501
instead of ragequitting the match, consider telling your retarded team to do something other than having 5 pyros, 5 spies or 5 snipers. those are particularly effective to stack. also consider having 1 engineer.

>>719130049
>and the game is so much better.
The only thing that was better is when hats weren't a thing.
>You could literally look at a class... and tell how they worked! Crazy!
This sarcasm is misplaced. Inability to get know what other person uses is not a game critical limitation.
>I don't even like that, I don't want to have to guess what someones counter is sitting in their pocket. I don't want to have a fifty-fifty for every engagement to whether my actions are actually secretly all wrong.
Who the fuck cares about what YOU want, you one-sided optimizing aesthetical proto-compfag, and why should one care one such flimsiest grounds?
Subterfuge and deception are among most important parts of war! Oh, you wanna know? NO!
I don't want or desire your "wanna know"! It is a tactical disadvantage, in a game that has a designated can opener class!

>>719132561
If your solution is thinking you can magically control other people it's a retarded solution.

>>719132847
*aesthetically lacking
*about your view on such flimsiest grounds

>>719132019
>Anyone dying to it let themselves get melee'd by a sniper
That isn't hard for Sniper to do outside of hitting Scout, Pyro, and Medics running away.
Sniper is tied for 3rd fastest class in the game. If you bump into his while flanking, it's not too hard for Sniper to either
>Jarate and Bushwacka you
>Jarate and snipe you
>Jarate and run away so his teammates can easily kill you
It's not like Sniper has to run at you with the Bushwacka. Meanwhile you're kind of forced to approach the Sniper, else he just snipes you.
And that isn't mentioning the fact that his other unlocks in those slots are kind of ass.
The only reasons why you'd ever not use the Jarate/Bushwacka combo is because you either have some dignity or you're memeing with the Cleaner's Carbine/Bushwacka loadout, which I actually respect because that loadout actually takes skill.

>>719132924
if you have to, mic up and start dropping n bombs on people who dont switch class.

>>719133245
Street trash-talking anyone, especially people you've never met is a team killing behaviour.

>>719102068
>>719113267
>ugh i can't just singlehandedly walk into the enemy base and kill anybody i want
>this is bad design
>why do teams have to fight in team fortress

>>719132382
>scramble is retarded
Because?

>>719133507
Funny because Sniper barely needs to walk anywhere to kill players and doesn't even fight them. Instead just clicks 20 miles away where only opposing Snipers can fight him.
And don't you Sniggers constantly say "just flank him bro"?

>>719133774
cos pvp games arent supposed to be fair. go play some gay comp game if you want perfectly balanced teams. tf2 is about making the most of what you have, if you don't like the lobby just requeue and find another.

>>719102068
>posting "christmas gift for blu spies" map
It's properly hard.
Surely you don't play on easy mode, right?

>>719132323
Casual needs more than just scramble.
It also needs longer matches so the server don't reset immediately after best of 3, needs to not reset if everyone voted to replay the map, have votes/nominations mid-game rather than at the end, not have you join at the very end of a match, etc.
So basically Casual needs to just become Quickplay again instead of the stupid match making system that exists because of Overwatch.

>>719133198
>That isn't hard for Sniper to do outside of hitting Scout, Pyro, and Medics running away.
You also need to factor in that most classes don't even need to get within melee range to kill the sniper, when you factor those in, and the classes that aren't likely to be flanking sniper in the first place (and the one class that can basically tank a melee crit already) it's only really the odd spy fumbling his backstab attempt whose in any real threat.

>>719133861
>lobby
No thank you, sir.
I would like to select my servers from a list, the way every single Source game was meant to be.

>>719125871
>Psuedo intellectual babble
I fap to anime girls with unrealistic body proportions, and I prefer it to 3DPD, argument invalidated.

>>719134021
>You also need to factor in that most classes don't even need to get within melee range to kill the sniper
Then the Sniper just snipes you or runs to his team for protection. Learn to read properly.

>>719133507
>>ugh i can't just singlehandedly walk into the enemy base and kill anybody i want
Sniper can do that but from 50 miles away

>>719133990
the only voting that should exist is votekicking trannys

>>719134182
>"I don't want to think"
But can you create a female body for scratch? No.
Maybe anime? No.
Would you ever come up with any 'unrealistic' (read non-existent) proportions or traits if somebody didn't conveniently create or derive them, so that your iteratively degrading self could turn it into your own obsession?
Your preferences are exactly that, preferences. Nothing else, consumer.

>>719133861
>t. pussy who plays exclusively in a stack and shits his diaper if he faces any challenge whatsoever in a pub

>>719125871
>>719134423
Fantasy is obviously derived from reality, but both are connected only in the fact that they share the same logic. You cannot think anything illogical. One picture either accurately represents something or it doesn't, but both are valid because they share the same logic. You haven't answered the question on why realism is fun btw. You just said a lot of nothing basically equating to "It's better". You cannot rocket jump in reality but it is fun to do so in a video game.

>>719134536
i play solo and top score in just about every single match, cope and seethe nigger.

>>719134237
If the sniper can reliably snipe you at mid to close range he doesn't need the bushwacka combo to begin with. In fact he probably wouldn't bother with it.

>>719133861
>pvp games aren't supposed to be fair
The ridiculous shit Snipermains say is unreal. A\Not as bad as scunts, but still ridiculous.

>>719134723
>You cannot think anything illogical.
Bold assumption, I expected as much from someone who waits for answers instead of making his own.
>You haven't answered the question on why realism is fun btw.
That should've been obvious by now, had you actually bothered to think about it. It has more options, because realism actual has infinitely more options, fantastical included.
And seeing that people mock realism here or elsewhere as "dull & brown filter" equivalent, it's jarring. In other words, it's a taxonomic disagreement.

I just zoom around as a shitter scout by playing pyro with the degreaser, panic attack, and powerjack

>>719134815
Sniper can hipfire, and doing so does pretty respectable damage after being Jirated.
I fucking swear Snipermains have genuine negative IQs and say shit like they never played the game before.

More people would be anti-sniper if there wasn't an unspoken rule of avoiding bodyshots.

>>719135058
not a snipermain at all, dont play sniper because its boring to be unopposed. huntsman at closer ranges is somewhat engaging. but generally i would rather fly across the map on demo and contest the enemy spawndoors with stickies, atleast thats entertaining albeit broken and dumb. clicking on heads is boring as shit.

>>719135267
just play scout for a few minutes
>stick my pinky toe out of cover for 1 millisecond
>instantly eat 150 damage

>>719135060
>Dumb nigger hasn't read Wittgenstein and is larping as an intellectual
>"Actually, if you include the fantastical in my definition of 'realism' it's way better!"
When people say "realism" they mean more accurately simulating reality as it is, which is does not necessarily make a video game better. People mock you because going "x is more accurate to reality so that means it's good!" is a retarded argument that doesn't make a game mechanic good.
No more (you)s faggot. Be as smug about it as you like.

>>719135495
I know what they mean, and not all people actually mean that.
All sorts of folks had their own takes on it.
All these are already reality as is. It's just not this to you because you're a dumb self-absorbed mortal who thinks his dead philosophers have any bearing on actual substrate limitations or actual potency.
And in case you forgot, I sure didn't imply, in the most initial post that IRL sniping is fun OR un-fun, only that it has depth, which is mechanically solid for abstractifications.

It's you or someone who brought fun in it, a laughable notion, as if somehow any implementation of firearms has ever been unfun other than to actually smug fucks such as you.

just dont peek bro

>>719130962
>It would actually improve what's meant to be a fun casual shooter if pubstompers weren't able to be too obnoxious.
I'd argue having a high level of skill expression available is part of what makes these games fun and gives them longevity. I doubt you'll find many people who enjoy Mario Party when they're playing with anybody but their friends. Making a game where great players can't dominate lobbies has an effect on everybody and inherently requires you to either limit every player's ability to make plays or make encounters feel more RNG for everybody. But of course now we're shifting the argument away from effectiveness towards whether or not he's fun to deal with. I don't know why you guys can't just say you don't like him from the beginning rather than trying so hard to pretend you think it's a balance issue.

Also, of course, another post where you reply only to one part of my argument yet I'm the one pushing towards this direction. Can only make one point per post, I guess.

>>719137965
sniper isnt highly skilled though, hes like the easiest class to play because you literally sit at the back of the map uncontested and all you have to do is spam charged bodyshots or else headshots. but the most broken class is probably demoman because he basically has 2 primary weapons and both are aoe.

>>719137965
>part of
It is, mechanical depth is yet another part. But while important, neither is enough for longetivity.
>Making a game where great players can't dominate lobbies
Lobbies are a mistake.
If you allow top tier or top tier players to ruin some core server, you might just kill the game. Empires mod is one such game. RF Online isn't an fps like TF2, but it's an great example of that.

sniper and spy are both classes for pussies to cowardly to fight fair

>>719138835
atttAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAck!

>>719138462
>sniper isnt highly skilled though, hes like the easiest class to play
Yeah, that's why he's always been recommended to noobs, notoriously low skill, and people are so happy to see multiple snipers on their team because they're just guaranteed to contribute.

>>719101004
3-4 rockets from long range will kill a Sniper. Just pop in and out of cover.

>>719100597
>which are Soldier and Demo
stopped reading there

>>719139124
noobs dont factor into skill or balance judgements, they suck at every class.
heavy = they get backstabbed for free
soldier = they waddle and dont rocket jump
spy = they sit around invis doing nothing 90% of time
scout = they cant land shots
medic = they dont overheal everybody they see, pocket wrong person
engi = they build at sub optimal spots, dont use their shotgun
demo = they dont land any directs, just spam randomly
pyro = they just int with w+m1 and die, maybe get 1 kill in the process

>>719096780 (OP)
>increase his laser dot to show in the air as well
>nerf razorback. Make him more susceptible to bullets, allowing a spy to 2 shot him with the revolver
>make a minimum charge for headshots
that's it, and all just tweaking design features he already has.

>>719138512
>Empires mod is one such game. RF Online isn't an fps like TF2
The fact that I only vaguely know what you're talking about tells me those didn't die just because some skilled players were dominating. Googling RF Online and confirming that it was a F2P korean MMO further indicates to me that I'm right. Regardless, if the handful of actual good sniper players online at any moment haven't killed TF2 yet, something tells me they're not going to.

>>719139642
>Regardless, if the handful of actual good sniper players online at any moment haven't killed TF2 yet, something tells me they're not going to.
Of-course they won't. I'm unsure what would it take to kill tf2, other than maybe TF 2.9.

>>719139623
Don't forget to change the Darwin Danger Shield
Shit shouldn't just hard counter Pyro like it does

>>719139623
pretty sure you can just barely 2 shot with stock revolver at like <5 meters.
but better fix would be removing the razorback cos not being able to use ur knife is retarded.

>>719104154
fuck trickstab and facestab comps, i need to see a failstab comp