Thread 722983441

How do you balance the classic fantasy rpg trifecta of Mage - Rogue - Warrior without making it feel like there's no reason not to pick a mage since they can fulfill the other roles with some respecs?

>>722983441 (OP)
>Warrior
Brute force man with the highest damage and defense.
>Mage
Summon spirits or undead, buff them and debuff enemies. Weak in direct combat.
>Rogue
Stealth. Very high damage stealth attacks to oneshot normal enemies. Very weak in direct combat.

>>722983441 (OP)
>How do you balance the classic fantasy rpg trifecta of Mage - Rogue - Warrior without making it feel like there's no reason not to pick a mage since they can fulfill the other roles with some respecs?

Baldur's Gate 3 balanced the classes really well. Let's compare Wizard to Rogue and Fighter.
>Wizard vs Rogue
Wizard can Knock, which means you potentially don't need a Rogue to open locks. However, the Knock spell uses spell slots, which means you're weaker in the next battle.
>Wizard vs Fighter
Wizard does more damage, but a Fighter is better the longer a fight is (due to spell slots).

Making spells limited is how mages were balanced in BG3.

By not allowing respecs

>>722983847
>Long rest after every fight because food is abundant.
>Wizard is the strongest class in the game at everything. Warrior is useless.
>Do not long rest after every fight because that's cheesy and for immersion.
>Warrior is now better than wizard at everything
World class 10/10 game design!

>>722983818
>mage specs into barkskin or other armor spells and death magic for instakills
See? In theory a mage can do anything in a game without enough magic depth

>>722983975
What's your solution? Being a snarky faggot posting in the 90% auto filtered section of 4chan? Keep up the good work. I need to scroll past this NPC bullshit being spammed in my other thread.

>>722983441 (OP)
>making it feel like there's no reason not to pick a mage
It's how it would be if it was realistic. Mage with armor no/low diff any not-mage. Everything else cope of arcaneless.

>>722984034
Mage should be weak in direct combat and have to rely on summoning allies, buffing them and debuffing enemies.
The meme where mages can cast mage armor and throw [Insert element here] balls is stupid. Being the brute force man is the warriors job.

>>722983847
Honestly the exact game I had in mind when making the thread was DnD and its derivatives.
Like take NWN and NWN2, there's literally zero reason not to pick either mage or sorcerer because magic is just unbalanced.
You end up with a mage that can rack up ridiculously high AC thanks to spells, high damage and unmatched utility. Or a sorcerer that has better stats than a warrior.

Lmao, it's a fucking game, you just don't program in spells that make other classes redundant. Lol

trifecta is the main issue here, you either have to make it so thief and warrior are far more versatile than "sneaky damage" and "loud damage" respectively, or make mages really limited and boring

just make more classes if you want a proper rpg, no need to limit it artificially. that way you can have different mage types so there isn't one that gets everything

>>722983441 (OP)
by introducing aspects which require other classes to actually utilise their talents instead of homogenizing them all into different flavors of damage dealers

>>722983441 (OP)
warrior/rogue/mage has always been retarded

>>722983847
diapers and dragqueens is the worst system to ape for video games

>>722984289
>make it so thief and warrior are far more versatile than "sneaky damage" and "loud damage"
Thinking on a more broader sense, thief should be the master of utility; traps, lockpicking, social interactions, sneaking and stealing. But then you have a mage that can cast invisibility, charm humanoid, knock etc.
Same metric with warrior; should be tanky, draw aggro, deal big physical damage. While these roles are harder to completely fulfill as a mage, a sufficiently thorough magic system will let you at least partially emulate them.

>>722983847
This game looks so fucking gay

>>722984564
it is, everyone is an evil and annoying sex pest

>>722983441 (OP)
By making the world realistic.
I would put deadly traps, locked chests everywhere so you need thief
I would make combat hard so tough guy warrior is essential
I would make reading books necessary to do quests so only wizard nerd who knows all languages and have expertise in history would get nuances and hidden messages

>>722984190
So every mage should be a summoner/necromancer in order to be balanced?
Not even mentioning that making summoner gameplay interesting and not braindead boring over the course of a campaign is a tall order.

>>722983441 (OP)
Before doing those elements, you should do the settings. Its a role playing game after all.

>>722984650
no such game exists

>>722984724
Because they afraid of manchildren who can't play not self inserting. Imagine an rpg where you have no main character only a group of fighter wizard cleric and theif who go on adventure together.

>>722984439
The problem is that by default, the warriors only talents are fighting, brute strength and athletics and acrobatics.
While you could add gadgetery like medieval batman, that would steal the rogues gimmick.

>>722984860
smithing and survival

>>722984860
that can create some neat narrative opportunities
its not really a flaw

>>722984650
wizards can detect traps and open locks with spells
wizards can kill enemies

Rpgs need Immersive sim element to make classes feel different

>>722985031
dont see how stacking boxes and bible references is going to make classes distinct

Out of all other functions, the one relatively hard for mages to completely replace is drawing aggro.
And even then if the game has some sort of orb of invincibility/illusion spell then the mage can just cast that and sling fireballs on the arena.
Rogue is just fucked there's nothing they do that cant be done by a spell or enchantment.

>Flavor balance: regardless of what is the "meta"/speedrunning/powergaming strat, each option fulfils their "class fantasy". E.g. rogue isn't just one way to scale damage from sneak dies but they can solve quests and encounters in uniquely rewarding ways by stealing, pickpocketing, assassinating, utilizing underworld contacts, sneaking around and generally doing dickass stuff
>Damage spread: rogue has burst, warrior has sustain, mage has AoE, in such a way that they are complimentary rather than directly comparable. Alternatively: warrior has tanking-capability, mage has control, rogue has raw damage
>Gear distribution: in a party-based game mage with all the caster items is strictly more powerful than rogue #2 with hand-me-downs from the MC, encouraging balanced parties
>Convenience: rogue can skip all of the annoying tedious shit and be at the finish line first, fighter must but can muscle through, and wizard can do everything easily... provided that they tailor their spell kit to each situation. As a matter of time actually spent playing the game, wizard is actually the slowest. Yet, this fits the class fantasy so people who like tailoring their spell kit to each situation don't mind, even if it's not speedrunning-viable!
>Power curves: It is a common trope that martial classes start out obviously stronger, then mages get some really powerful spells (like big AoE nukes or save-or-die/get-fugged spells) that eclipse brute strength, but contrary to "linear fighter quadratic wizard" catchphrase, actually it is the case that martial classes scale from far more combat factors while wizard scaling is roughly linear or contingent on spell progression alone, so in endgame martial characters catch up being essentially the same as delivering "die, no save" spells each attack. There's no fact of the matter to what is "overall strongest" so might as well play your preference

I can think of a lot of options, but my design ideal would be flavor balance.

>>722984860
thats why you include things like feats of strength, breaking down a door instead of opening it, moving rubble out of the way to open a passage, hauling gear all fucking day while the rest of the party have to stop every few dungeon levels to take a break.

warriors are endurance creatures, wizards are sudden bursts of power with the occasional utility event, and a long rest between, and a theif is entirely utility, both in and out of combat.

>Warrior
Straight forward, solves any problem through strength and endurance.
>Mage
Large potential through resource management and elaborate setups, high risk, high reward.
>Rogue
Finds power through utility, has various tools to solve any problem.

>>722985031
That would only make mages even more unbalanced since now you have more situations where magic just solves everything.

>>722984983
They have spells. Limited resources like less than 10. Just make everything locked each door each chest and like 10 traps in one corridor

>>722985565
good thing you're not a game designer

>>722983441 (OP)
in an RPG?
by having the DM throw specialized problems at the party, allowing the warrior or rogue to excel in other areas, like conversation, or problem solving, or by utilizing magic items or other tools.

in a computer game? make one enemy immune to magic, teleport to the back lines, and put it in often enough that the mage gets killed enough to be a pain.

>>722983441 (OP)
>A class that can manipulate raw energies for various purposes and attack enemies from the distance with them
>A class with a sharp stick
You cannot balance this in a way that will not feel arbitrary. May as well try balancing the dude with a sharp stick vs someone who has a modern firearm.

>>722984554
>sufficiently thorough magic system will let you at least partially emulate them.
May as well drop the stick for an axe and become a battlemage then. The best class.

Here's an idea. Just make alchemy the only type of magic in the game. Just like in Fullmetal Alchemist.
Solves the mages do everything by inflicting a heavy cost on every magic feat. A real cost mind you because mana and spell slots aren't real costs since you can just rest after the fight.

>>722985607
Fuck, in my roleplay Party game each member will be covering essential part of gameplay.
I'm josh basedar stepson

>>722985668
>You cannot balance this in a way that will not feel arbitrary
Magic is arbitrary by definition, because you're inventing it for the purposes of the game, as magic does not actually exist in real life.

>>722985757
Imagine fully developed blood magic like from dao where you can actually kill people and fuse their lifeforce into magic.
Of course with bad ending where mc become a villain

>>722983441 (OP)
>How do you balance
You don't, at least in single player games. Balanceniggers have thoroughly ruined magic in particular because some other retards have no self control.

>>722983441 (OP)
>How do you balance the classic fantasy rpg trifecta of Mage - Rogue
Add a druid who can at any time switch between slightly shittier versions of each of course!

>>722985906
>Balanceniggers
You fucking mongoloid. You need some balance so people dont just ask themselves
>wait a fucking second if mage can do everything other classes can why should I pick any class thats not a mage?

>>722983441 (OP)
The only real solution to this is making the rpg party based and to not overdo the mage's toolkit

>>722986026
You play another class to get a different gameplay experience you idiotic whore.

>>722983441 (OP)
Depends on what kind of game it is, what the rest of the game is like and what "endgame" is like if it has an endgame.

Maybe rogue/stealth class focuses on opening chests and fighting rare/boss enemies 1v1 and avoids most regular mobs. Fighter tanks through things and has low mobility, mage has high mobility but plays plays bullet hell.

idk

>>722985856
>blood magic can only be learned if a demon teaches you and to use it you have to make a pact with the demon, which in most times works against the mage and they end up possessed
Man DA has such a fun lore. Can't believe how they completely demolished that franchise with modern liberal garbage.

>>722983441 (OP)
hot take but elden ring has those different archetypes and the slow unga bunga builds that make up for using slow weapons in melee by being tanky are probably the most fun to play

>>722983441 (OP)
>Not multiclassing all three
NGMI

>>722983975
Resting doesn't matter mid battle, where Wizard being able to lob a few big attacks isn't actually unbalanced given that something like Eldritch Knight can swing 4 times a turn.

>>722983441 (OP)
All of the classes are magical. Mages are glorified civilians stepping into conflict zones with whatever delusion they have.

>>722983441 (OP)
Most devs use shadow numbers for progress and split it into level/stats, gear and skills. One of the reason games feel samey and rpg are devoid of actual skill.

>>722983975
This
>>722984062
Some form of survivability or longer fights. Full rested few fights, if any, are a serious threat in bg3, especially if you know the system and or the terrain.

>>722984034
>Runs out of mana/spell slots
Maybe you should've let the tank be the tank

I'm looking for cyberpunk / scifi games with classes or jobs.

>>722985506
Does it necessarily? If the game has systems for e.g. simulating passage of time, vancian magic in particular quickly becomes cumbersome if you did try to use it to "do everything". For that matter, if the game takes worldbuilding seriously rather than leaving it maximally exploitable for the benefit of the player, one would assume that in a world with magic people would develop protocols for dealing with magic. Like casting anti-teleportation zones in high-security areas, protecting VIPs with anti-compulsion enchantments and equipping guards with see invisibility goggles; all things that a masterfully acrobatic cat burglar, charismatic smooth talker and expert of disguises could get around. Kinda like computer security: it's not that present systems are information-theoretically secure, there are vulnerabilities, but rather than trying their hand using increasingly exotic exploits until something works, criminals are more likely to call you and ask for your password and gain access that way. Doesn't mean there cannot be clever uses for magic, or that a mage couldn't try to imitate some aspects of what non-casters are doing, but it would be a far cry from simply doing everything straightforwardly.

>>722983441 (OP)
EZ
Warrior > Rogue > Mage > Warrior

>>722983441 (OP)
I think 2e had fighters gain followers who could do shit for him
Also I think Magic was less '100$ benefits all of the time' and more 'you move quicker and get 1 year older. Get fucked humans!'

>>722984034
Mage can spec as a jack of all trades but every spell could be strictly inferior than another specialized class' choice

ENTER

>mage is OP
good, as they should be
>rogue is OP
good, as they should be
>warrior is OP
good, as they should be

Fuck balancenigger. Still picking Human Male Fighter

>>722985824
>as magic does not actually exist in real life.
Keep believing it, sheepy.

Rogue's arrows and sneak attacks beat a frail Mage, Fighter's durability and armor beat sneaky Rogue, Mage's control of the elements incinerates Fighters.

>>722987008
Oh, and spells took longer to cast than 1 standard action, so protecting the wizard while he got the 'win the battle' spell off was important.
Could probably apply that to more spells: a wizard CAN unlock/disarm a treasure chest, but it takes him longer than a thief.

>>722987154
The problem is that mages are SIGNIFICANTLY more OP than other classes dumbass.

>>722987467
>Scarlet Witch is significantly more OP than Wolverine
Yes, that is the nature of having a reality warper around.

You can't balance a mage so just make people adapt to having reality warping gods walking around by having regular warriors specialize in anti-magic tactics. Make it be a part of the regular curriculum for any warrior just like horse riding and fencing.
>oh I'm casting fireb-
>no you're not magitranny

>>722987467
>mages are SIGNIFICANTLY more OP than other classes
as they should be, retard

>>722987527
Meh, I preferred her probability powers. They were powerful, but unreliable. Now she is just a generic wizard, which undermine her mutant origin.

If you willingly play a martial class in a game with magic and still bitching, you should just pick a princess and wait to be rescued.

>>722987205
>Oh, and spells took longer to cast than 1 standard action
When did the instant casting was introduced?

>>722986210
that's not the honorable way sir, very cheesy very cheap

>>722983441 (OP)
By making the solutions to their problems rely on their talents, and providing divergent story and situations in response.

>>722987182
Your gay 'focused intent' does nothing measurable on the macroscopic scale. Your prayers are whispers in the wind unheard by an uncaring God.

>>722987986
I'm basing this off old memories, but 3e
That's when casters went off the rails because they could rewrite reality in the time it took for sword-man to swing his sword once.
That's... that's fast.

>>722983441 (OP)
Warrior allows for reckless play where you charge in with the best armor and start swinging instead of stealthing or juggling a dozen crowd control spells
I got nothing with Rogue. Even giving them stuff to do (lock picking, trap finding) just means there's entire sections of the game players can't access without paying the rogue tax.
Mage is fine being a magical swiss army knife.

>>722988442
This
If the only differences between them are combat strategies, it's a shitty game

>>722994194
Monks should be banned from everything

>>722983441 (OP)
>it is unfair that my lvl 20 caveman loses to your lvl 10 assault rifle wielding soldier!
You don't balance shit. Balance is the killer of fun.
Lineal vs quadratic powerlevels is the way of nature and the world itself, it sorts itself naturally. Every attempt to mess with this natural order results in shitfest unfunny games.

Age penalties. You hear about how wizards become reality warping gods, but how? Your ass needs to be locked in a library for years before you can learn to cast fireball. Dungeon delving isn’t conducive to learning and you’ll never have time to study. In character creation, you choose your characters age. Younger characters are going to be healthier with physical bonuses but shit mages with most spells locked while older characters will be physically decrepit with INT and magic bonuses.

>>722988449
Ah, the good old redditor atheist parody sentence. Always crack me up when I see someone use it, ironically of course.

Make it an all mages game. The other classes are mere minions and hirelings.

>>722992165
Tbh, D&D was born out of wargame. And it wasn't even Warrior, Mage and Thief, it was Fighting Man, Mage and Cleric.

>>722994194
monks are the most retarded class ever

>>722983441 (OP)
Wizard forcing the two non-magic classes to contort painfully to hide how fucking manlet he is

As others have pointed out, the mage deals more damage and can target an area, and the rogue has utility, stealth and sneak attacks, but both can be bum-rushed or one-shot. The fighter can tank and fight, but can't open locks and cast spells. Sure, the mage can have high durability and open locks with spells too, but that has costs like using spell slots/mana and taking turns to buff (unless one buffs before the battle, in which case, there's spell duration), whereas the fighter is always combat-ready. Also, micromanaging spells and casting multiple buffs before every battle can be a pain.

I don't see what the problem is.

>>722986243
fights never go on very long so your wizard probably won't be out of spell slots after 1 fight

>>722983441 (OP)
Fold Rogue into Fighting Man, replace him with Cleric.
Fighting Man (mundane) ------ Cleric (hybrid) ------ Magic-users (magic)

Is there any RPG where magic is truly OP, but so costly that it would make you think if and when you want to use it?

>>722983441 (OP)
Balancing these for combat is piss easy. Just balance around % remaining HP and have everyone on the same resource timeline. DnD somehow fails at this by having 3+ resource timelines, which causes this issue: >>722983975

>there's no reason not to pick a mage since they can fulfill the other roles with some respecs?
Don't make magic omnipotent. A mage shouldn't be able to tank as well as a warrior and subterfuge as well as a thief. DnD fails at this for warriors by giving mages the ability to be tankier in most instances. It actually succeeds at it for thieves, but sadly people are too retarded to read the rules and ignore the drawbacks of using magic in social/stealth situations.

>>722983441 (OP)
>Locks
>Can be opened by a rogue and destroyed by a warrior
>Magic seals
>Can be tricked by a rogue and removed by a mage
>Weak walls
>Can be break down by a warrior and exploded by a mage
>Climbable walls
>Can be climbed by a warrior and a rogue
>Long gaps, like on mountain walk
>Can be levitated by a mage, or double jumped by a rogue
>Persuasion, charm and lie for a rogue
>Threaten, escalation and bargain for a warrior
>Decurse, disencantment and detect magic for mage
When games isn't based 100% of the time around combat, then it doesn't matter if someone who can throw globes of fire is objectively a superior choice.

>>722983441 (OP)
>warrior
fights his enemies face to face, has the tankyness to back it up, is fast and strong and can quickly adapt to different weapons, tho he has a few he specializes in. Relies on weapons, armor, tactical prowess and his instincts as a figher, which grows sharper with more experience. His weakness: His own code of honor when it comes to fighting can get in his way.
>rogue
Kills his enemies without fighting them, using cunning and stealthiness. Very deadly if he gets to strike without being detected first. Has contingency measures at hand in case he does get decteted before striking, so even then killing/defeating him isn't exactly easy. If it does come to a real fight with no escape however, he is pretty much fucked if his opponent is a seasoned fighter
>mage
Can be and do soo many things, but has to prepare his magic in advance in order to be effective in combat. for that he sometimes needs rare ingredients. His intelligence determines how effective his formulae are. He has a few little magic tricks up his sleeve that he can use pretty much always to get away/buy time, but that isn't going to help him if completely unprepared otherwise. Think of someone who has a machine gun but it isn't loaded. Scary if he gets to determine when he fights. Weak if his opponent makes that decision. Can still cast unprepared, but it needs a lot of cast-time and focus, so he needs support for that.

>>722994194
>>722994370
>>722995507
I wish the monk had never existed and they had some kind of brawler class instead, just a dude that has combat maneuvers and fights using fists, improvised weaponry and brass knucks.

>>722997815
>fighter
>code of honor
huh?

>>722998182
>just a dude that has combat maneuvers and fights using fists, improvised weaponry and brass knucks
So you want a Fighter from Pathfinder

>>722997815
>duelist
If warrior and rogue had a child. Is good at face to face fighting like the warrior, but isn't held back by any code of honor, making dirty tactics available to him (hidden weapons, throwing sand, that sort of thing). Opens fights with a stealth attack (if possible) to weaken his opponent beforehand, if not killing them outright. As his name suggests, he is absolutely deady in duels, but can get overwhelmed quickly if he has to deal with several opponents, unlike the warrior, who is even more thrilled by that kind of challenge.
>battle mage
Has developed magic spells that are effective in combat and can always be used with short cast times, and a few immediate spells. His spells lack the sheer power and utility of that which are used by pure mages, but can improvise much better. He needs mana to cast his spells tho, which limits how long he can stay engaged. The power of his spells depends more on willpower and fighting spirit than intelligence, which, depending on his moral, can affect his effectivenes in combat.

>>722998258
Yeah, it'd make the most sense as a fighter subclass. Could also get a bonus from drinking like the 1e drunken master.

>>722998206
well I was imagining something like goku there, except with weapons and shit, but yeah, not every fighter is honorable, you are right.

>>722983441 (OP)
magic nigger
swords nigger
bow n arrow nigger
thats all you need. anything else is gay or japanese

>Warrior
Best at fighting
>Thief
Best at ambushes, avoiding traps, having him in your party increases the odds of finding treasures
>Cleric
Better at fighting than the thief, not as versatile as the warrior, can cast healing spells and buffs
>Mage
Has a spell for everything, cannot fight to save his life, is incredibly underpowered at the start but towards the midgame he becomes the best DPS, able to wipe out non-boss ennemies in a single turn.

Instead of being classes, there should be clades from which multiple classes can spring from.
>Fighting Man -> Use mundanes means like Fighting without magic, negotiating, healing with medical techniques, leading -> Warriors, Thief, Doctor, Martial Artists
>Magic Users ----> Use magical means -----> Mage, Witch, Theurgist
>Devotees -----> Hybrid between Fighting Man and Magic Users, but must obey his religion/tradition -----> Clerics, Berserkers, Ninjas, Assassins, Crusaders, Monks

>>722999478
>Devotees
>Ninjas, Assassins
>Berserkers out of all things
Ninjas and assasins use their wits, stealth tools and acrobatics and don't fear fighting dishonorably.
Berserker is the ultimate brute force class.

>>722999000
Also
>Ninja
Advanced specialization for thief, less focused on stealing things and more on fighting while light on your feet, high evasion and crit chance. His most powerful technique is the Izuna Drop, which can cause stun and paralyze.

>>722994370
>>722994194
>>722995507
In which game are monks the actual BIS and not just a meme build that requires like, thrice the fucking effort to output similar damage than other martial classes?

>>722999797
I am expanding the cleric meaning beyond religious. Now, it encompasse traditions too.
Ninjas follow their clans' rules.
Assassins are based upon the Hashashins.
Berserkers reconnect with their namesakes' origin of shaman-warriors, channeling the spirit of the animals in the name of Odin.

>>722999908
Ninjas were actually stealthy assassins and not direct fighters.

>>723000123
A berserker is just someone who fights like a savage animal in a state of blind rage, knows no fear and also pulls trough all pain and wounds.
There is a myth that historically berserkers took shrooms that made them ignore pain and fear.

>>722999984
Most notable example is BG3. The most know monk build drunkern tavern especially on Karlach is stupidly strong and braindead.

>>723000171
That's represented by the high crit chance. They deal lower base damage than the fighter and use the same equipment as the thief.

>>723000536
I'm pretty sure Barbarian and Fighter are better for the whole Tavern Brawler shtick.

>>722999984
Pathfinder. Pillars of Eternity.

>>722983441 (OP)
You focus on making the game fun and everything viable instead of going insane over balance, because then players will break the game and minmax the fun out of it.

>>723000431
That's the pop culture version, they were shamanic warriors that observed religious duties https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/berserkers-and-other-shamanic-warriors/

>>723000769
The Scaled Fist tax doesn't count as a Monk build.

>>723000757
Thematically, Barbarian and Fighter are much better tavern brawlers because the monk is usually a disciplined and skillful fighter who uses finesse over brute force, while especially barbarians are very burly and love to drink.
However when it comes to gameplay, Barbarian and Fighter do 1 + STR damage with their bare fists or 1d4 + STR and no proficiency bonus to hit with a bottle so really you have to play the drunken monk if you wanna reach anything.

>>723000757
>multiple attacks per turn at very early on
>at level 5, you deal physical, an extra element of your choice, and the fire damage from Karlach's coin, all of them proc 5 times per special attack or 3 times per normal attack
>at late game, you dip into fighter anyways for the action surge, so you can do 6+ attacks in one turn
>with how that tavern brawler perk works, you can build your monk full dex, since 1 elixir caps your STR at 19, the elixirs are available on a vendor as well
>so your monk that wears a robe is tankier than a warrior in full armor, hits 5x stronger with his naked fists than a warrior holding a 2 handed and also outscales him even harder in late game
>on top of having means to deflect arrows, send arrows back to the sender, higher DC checks to avoid enemy debuffs etc
It may be more balanced in tabletop or Pathfinder, but in BG3 it's so strong it's not even funny anymore

>>722985506
When you play a tabletop RPG, is everything that isn't a magic class worthless?

>>722983441 (OP)
Give mages a chance to fail at utility spells that do things like open locks with it still taking away from their mana pool/spell slots, make most enemies have elemental resistances and weaknesses that you need to play around for effective magery but broadly be vulnerable to a sword to the face.
If you make mages a jack of all trades by giving them spells that ape other class's features then you need to make them less reliable to work with than those other classes. They should be able to fill but not replace.
Or just give them all the cool crowd control but make it so you have to rely on other people for good direct damage, that's basically how druids work in low level 5e.

>>722983441 (OP)
Separate campaigns.

>>723001493
These games sadly seem indeed very rigged towards magic users. In my very limited experience at least.
Mages get the power to just purge every disease, hold person, a very high level one hit kill spell. Warriors get no healing at all. There are quite a few monsters that will destroy warriors weapons and armor permanently and most mid-high level monsters resist your melee attacks for some ungodly reason, while some stuff like werewolves is just immune to melee damage.
It really sucks the fun out of the game and makes me wish it was more like greek mythology with martial heroes fighting monsters or even just playing Fallout.

>>722983441 (OP)
>fighter
fights
>magic user
>magics
>thief
thieves

>>723002148
When you say these games, do you mean video games or tabletop? Because in tabletop there's much, much more to the game than just the attacks you use in combat. The whole fun of it is being creative and solving problems in different ways.

>>723002292
Tabletop only.
Video games are MUCH kinder to warriors and actually really fair. Warriors feel great in Skyrim and Oblivion. Morrowind kinda pushes you towards magic, but you can still play a cool magic warrior with fat enchantments on your equipment. Mages are usually much more fragile while warriors can tank much more. In fact, warriors feel more badass and powerful in Souls games than mages.

I like that in the Japanese sphere, you have the Dexfag being the dominant class. Holy Focused Bolt be damned.
While in DND its the caster, especially Druid/Cleric.

A party consisting only of high level mages should cast levitate to avoid any traps and dodge most attacks, cast spells to increase their physical, elemental and magic defenses, have summons that can fight for them meaning you have an army at your disposal, have spells to petrify, cause instant death, slow down and stop time, summon a meteorite that falls on their heads etc. Even with all those powers, they still can't cast healing incantations.

>glaze the fighter so STRfags feel helpful
>nerf the mage so STRfags feel helpful
>coinflip to decide if dexfags get custody over being stupidly overpowered or not

t. every class based system

>>723002513
>Tabletop only.
Tabletop isn't rigged towards magic users at all. There's so much that physical classes can simply do that makes them always have utility and can let them doing creative shit in all kinds of situations. Magic users are usually squishy and can't do as much stuff without risk of getting instantly deleted.

>>723002837
>There's so much that physical classes can simply do that makes them always have utility and can let them doing creative shit in all kinds of situations. Magic users are usually squishy and can't do as much stuff without risk of getting instantly deleted.
That's video games. Tabletop is the other way around.

>>723001848
>just make three different games bro

>>723003025
>Tabletop is the other way around.
It sounds like you don't actually play tabletop games.

>>723003170
Just do like Gothic 2 did it.

>>723003289
How's Gothic 2 do it? I've only played 1.

the answer is to simply stop being autistic. stop thinking about what a mage "should be able to do." stop trying to balance in combat ability with out of combat utility. fighter is strong and tough but slow and short range. rogue is fast but fragile. mage is weak at close range but powerful at a distance. it's that easy.

Street Samurai > Fighters
That is all.
I know Shadowrun isn't popular, but I have to admit that I don't know why. I enjoy the kitchen sink setting... that being said I haven't kept up since 5e came out.

why not just have stat based specs for every class if the problem is that magic does everything
ie
for STR
>DBZ mage
>Artillery cannon rogue
>regular ass warrior
for DEX
>spiderman mage
>regular ass rogue
>I parry everything warrior
and for mag
>regular ass mage
>displacement effects and >dude element arrows
>beam attack teleports behind you warrior

>>723001848
>>723003170
>fighter is pure unga bunga kino
>thief is thief
>mage is some arcane puzzle/adventure
>game ends with the three forming a party to save the world
I'd play it.

>>723003416
there's nothing saying a fighter can't be agile. Or use a bow, for that matter.

>>723003170
just make 8 different games

>>723003338
Faction exclusive main quests. If you are a mage, you get mage quests, tied to characters from mage storyline, which you will never interact with on a path of merc or paladin. It's still the same main quest, but with branches for factions in early-mid game.

>>723003704
bow user is a separate class. you might as well ask "why can't soldier in team fortress use a sniper rifle?"

>>723003183
are you kidding? in d&d, the quintessential tabletop rpg whether fat fucks on /tg/ like it or not, a level 6 wizard gains the ability to fly, turn invisible, and shoot fireballs. a level 6 barbarian gets +1 to detect traps or something.

>>723003925
Neat. Sounds better than 1 where you pretty much get pushed through the exact same series of events regardless of which group you join.

>>723002513
Oblivion warriors are capped to shit, deal zero damage and rely mostly on enchantments to work, it's in Morrowind where they can just spam Sujamma stacking to oneshot everything, especially when mages have to deal with casting chance for high level spells, a very long casting time and late game reflect spam

>>723003943
I can't think of any RPG that arbitrarily restricts bows from fighters. Fighters can use any arms and armor, that's kind of the point of the class. They fight. So long as it's not magic they can do it however they please

>>723004805
>I can't think of any RPG that arbitrarily restricts bows from fighters.
Dragon's Dogma

>>723004835
>Dragons Cockma
Not a real RPG.

>>723004935
Ah, so you're retarded.

>>723004976
No u! Stoopid anon!
Go fuck your dog!

>>722983441 (OP)
as someone who has never played a fantasy game before:
>warrior
fight stuff head on. highest defense and offense in close quarters. maybe some anti magic capabilities
>mage
shoots stuff at range and has some utility skills to interact with the world and some buffs/debuffs and maybe some healing shit. lowest hp and defenses without buffs. maybe has some cool melee range spells but you're still a glass cannon
>rogue
stealthy can backstab dudes. also has some physical ranged options. can also steal stuff and some other interactivity with the world.

depending on your job how you are treated by npcs changes drastically

>>723005109
>No u! Stoopid anon!
Most literate Dragon's Dogma hater.

>>722983441 (OP)
The Trinity only works when you have very strict class restrictions. Mages are physically weak glass cannons, they have to be. At best they can cast a healing spell or two but that's it. They can't carry much, if they get hit a lot they die and they have no way to change any of that. Fighters are great at not-getting-hit and if they get hit it's not a big deal. They also can carry a lot. Thieves can't carry a lot either, they also go down rather quickly. But if they find a weak spot on the enemy they can kill him real quick. Also theres tonnes of traps and locks to pick so you really need a thief.

If you give either of them a way to improve their weaknesses one of the other two become obsolete.

>>723005279
Dragons Cockma is tranny BBC ERP slop.

>>722983441 (OP)
>Fighter
Best survivability, best resistance to magical effects, diverse range of practical skills.
>Rogue
Best damage at the expense of survivability, highly specialized skill set for infiltration, stealth and espionage.
>Wizard
Wide range of buff spells that encourage supporting allies, high damage spells tend to be limited in some way and cc is powerful but unreliable. Highly autistic making them very bad at non-magic based skill checks without multi-classing.

>>722983441 (OP)
>How do you balance the classic fantasy rpg trifecta of Mage
By making the mage better than the fighter and rogue, and only having the mage be playable, and giving him the weapons and abilities of the fighter and rogue, too. Even when he doesn't need them.

>>722996931
>but sadly people are too retarded to read the rules and ignore the drawbacks of using magic in social/stealth situations.
If your DM doesn't point out that you're yelling magic words and wildly swinging your arms before casting, say, suggestion, they're a bad DM.
If you really want to cast sneaky just roll a fucking sorc and take subtle spell (aka the most underrated metamagic period).

>>722983441 (OP)
>Fighter
The many! The myth! The legend!
Highest damage in the game bar none, great survivability. Fast and agile despite heavy armor due to hard martial training! He will have access to a wide range of both one- and two handed axes, hatchets, poleaxes, glaives, swords, greatswords, maces, clubs, hammers and spears and a few novelty meme weapons aswell like a fish and he can equip any armor he finds! His only weakness is being melee only, but his speed will make it easy for him to get into melee range! He will knock! you! out!!!
>Rogue
Warrior but stupider and lamer. Low damage shortsword and crappy greasy leather armor that is easy to cut. Weaker, frailer and less athletic than the warrior. Has a bow which gives him a slight edge over warriors at range.
>Wizard
You get no armor and only a dagger or a very weak light mace/club if you are very lucky. Your body is frail and pathetic and you are not fit or agile. If an enemy gets into melee, you are basically dead. You get a fireball that does less damage than the warriors melee but has a slight edge over the warrior at range, a heal spell and a self buff that is barely noticable. All spells drain MP and if you run out of MP, you are more more less done for.

>>722983441 (OP)
by upping the ATK:DEF ratio so mages die in 1-2 hits while warriors can take 6-7 and thieves dodge 80% but have more or less the same HP as mages
mages do not get DEF or AVO boosting spells

>Fighter
Fights and has some debuffs.
>Thief
Steals, having him around improves item drop rates. Turns the adventure from a zero-sum game into a profitable venture.
>Cleric
Heals, cures poison, does buffs and debuffs.

Those are the only 3 mandatory classes. Also clerics can be evil, thieves can't be good, and a good cleric would refuse to form a party with a thief.

How do people feel about fighters and such having feats/abilities that can replicate magical effects but with an extraordinary mundane explanation instead of a magical one? Like doing fire damage with a weapon because you swung it so fast it burst into flame, paralyzing someone by hitting their pressure points, etc. Mages tend to be OP because they get a plethora of different effects while fighters just do damage, so giving fighters feats like that both balances them with mages and gives them more to do.

>>722983441 (OP)
I'm not a mentally ill zoomer, so I don't have to balance shit. The mage can do magic and bend reality, the fighter is a dude with a sword and the rogue is the dude without one.

>>722999478
There's no reason to split cleric from mage.
Three classes is good, but needs tweaks.
>Warrior -> Focused on martial combat and athleticism. Great physical attributes, strong practical skills, solid social skills, weak magical skills, weak technical skills.
>Subclasses: Knight, Barbarian, Brawler, Archer, Weapon Master
>Thief -> Focused on skill proficiency, stealth, and supporting in combat. Weak in a fight 1v1, but immensely potent when he has allies to draw attention. Moderate physical attributes that emphasize mobility, unmatched technical skills, solid magical skills, great in all other skills.
>Subclasses: Thief, Assassin, Ranger, Swashbuckler
>Mage -> Ability to cast spells, focus primarily on support or unconventional problem solving (illusions, shaping environments, information gathering). Combat abilities are potent but unreliable, will lose 1v1 against other classes. Poor physical attributes, unmatched magical skills, poor in all other skills.
>Subclasses: Wizard, Elementalist, Fortune Teller, Druid, Priest, Shaman
>Hybrid Warrior-Rogue: Ninja, Bandit
>Hybrid Warrior-Mage: Paladin, Monk
>Hybrid Mage-Rogue: Bard, Spellthief

>>723006535
It's better to get a magic sword that's perpetually on fire. Also I assume the fire mages use isn't natural, otherwise someone throwing molotov cocktails would be just as effective.

>>723002837
I'd comment about how you were wrong but you'd probably just backpedal and say "d-don't play dungeons and dragons" as if it's not the go-to example. It's so bad that the current edition's solution is to just give almost everyone magic because they gave up.

>>723005640
>If your DM doesn't point out that you're yelling magic words and wildly swinging your arms before casting, say, suggestion, they're a bad DM.
Suggestion doesn't have somatic components, you're a bad DM

>>723006468
Cool, that's considered very modern, 1970s are only 60 years ago.

>>723007504
We should make it so if you create a mage, you don't actually start the game with magic but instead you start as a scholar who still needs to learn magic.
To learn magic, you need to travel to the magic academy and then you must go the initiation ritual where all the grand wizards undress their robes and will take turns fucking your mouth and ass and filling you with their magic cum, which is activating your magic. Then, the grand wizards servants will bring a huge barrel of stinky shit and as a part of the initiation ritual, you have to jump into the barrel of shit and get completely submerged in it. Also the shitinside the barrel is enchanted so after you get out of it again and clean off the shit, whihch is done by all the grand wizards pissing on you at the same time to wash off the shit as a part of the ritual, your skin color will permanently turn brown as shit and no magic will be able to everundo this. You will now have the magic inside you, but you still can't use it because the last catalyst is missing and a massive ogre is brought into the hall. As the final part of the initiation ritual, you need to take the ogres entire massive, filthy, bug covered cock inside your ass and have the ogre ejaculate intto you to activate the magic. Once this ritual is over, you will be a proper mage and able to fully use all your spells. This service of the magic academy also is not free and you will owe the academy a debth of 1000000 gold coins afterwards which you will have to pay off over the rest of your life.

>>722984854
Etrian Odyssey is like that, there’s no single main character. You make your squad and can freely switch anyone out whenever you want.

>>723007583
Sounds like you need a DM who isn't a fag that only lets casters be creative.

>>722983847
A bards tale fixed dnd for Vidya and nobody cares

>>723008003
Wizardry does this and it still works, no need to fix what isn't broken.

>mage
tune damage dealing spells so they start strong and don't become insane with levelling.
>warrior
have single use items that do what a utility spell can do (health/buff/debuff potions, bombs, canned spells) but take up inventory or weight.
>rogue
level design to make stealth more viable, too many rogue skill opportunities for the mage (runs out of mana) or warrior (runs out of items) to take advantage of. if you just had a warrior and/or mage, youd constantly be deciding which door to unlock, which guard to charm or which trap-filled hallway to disarm while the rogue would be able to take the easy path in exchange for his squishiness

>>722983441 (OP)
First of all, remove rogue and replace it with specialist, a trickster with traps, devices and skills. Remove the agile acrobat implications. Put alchemy here as well.
Make fighter, the only class that has fighting skills. Make the agile dagger acrobat a path inside fighter.
Put ALL magic inside wizard, even healing.
Maje it like dnd. The actual core of your character is a set of agnostic values that are modified by class levels. Put specific class powers on top of this system.
Finally, make multiclass the norm. Your actual title is defined by how many levels you have on each of the 3 classes.
Have special powers that can only be learned by these combinations.
Ensure number gap between starter characters and max level characters do not cross times 5.

>>722983441 (OP)
>what rogue should be
Kill enemy from behind, don't even give a chance to fight back
>what rogue often ends up being
A warrior but he dodges really often and hits his enemies weakspots, which is what every fighter should be doing anyways

>>723007751
Gomennasai, what I meant to say was pulling out a snakes tongue and waving it in the target's face.
I mean I guess you could wave a focus in their face instead.

Nothing beats doing a suplex to a dragon

>>723007152
>There's no reason to split cleric from mage
The reasoning is mostly role-play value. Fighting Men are the ones who do everything by their own powers. I included thiefs and rangers in there, because why can't a trained soldier be stealthy or a thief can't hide among soldiers in a heavy armor? Magic Users are wizards that supernatural powers.
Clerics are basically hybrids, but they have to follow a religion or a tradition or suffer bad consequences like being branded an heretic or being exiled from their clans. Which is why I included kung fu monks and Ninjas in there, as they would be able to use ki and ninpos will being bound but the tradition of their teachings or clans respectively.
Of course, the natures of the classes will be bound by the setting.

>>723011430
For me it's piledriver.
Grappler subclass for fighter!
Unarmed proficiency and very weak basic strikes, but you can grapple every enemy you stand very close to and then perform moves on them like suplex, piledriver, spin and throw. These moves can hit other enemies aswell for CC, like suplexing an enemy into a group of smaller enemies.

>>722983441 (OP)
I think you don't worry about that and make them how you imagine them and how they fit in the world.

>>722984860
DND originally just had fighter/cleric/mage but then thief and then dwarf/elf/halfling got included.
If anything thief stole a lot more from fighter, like conan the barbarian was a stealthy guy in spite of being a warrior.

>>722999984
Tales of Maj'eyal brawlers are at least A-Tier.

>>723011721
Personally, I would only have a single class: the warrior.
However, there is a ton of variation and customisability to the warrior. You can make the classic balanced warrior, a hulking juggernaut tank in massive armor, a switft and agile unarmored monk who uses his agility to never get hit and wittle down on opponents, a skillful infiltrator with bombs and a grappling hook or you could play as a marksman blasting away enemies with a musket.
And best of all, you could combine all sorts of elements of those variation into your unique, personalized warrior. Want a barbarian with a massive hammer and light armor who dodges attacks until he finds an opening to strike? Want to swing on a grappling hook and blast enemies with your musket? You can!

>>723011545
This is why you ignore the whole muh fighter shtick and go barbarian instead.

>>723011545
Classes exist to define mechanics, not flavor. It also seems kind of reductive to just put all physical actions into "fight man". The three core tenants of ttrpgs are martial combat, skill checks and magic, so having one class specialized in each made sense to me.
>Clerics are basically hybrids
I've never liked this design, it just makes Clerics better Paladins and it completely buries the very popular "cloth and robe priest" in favor of having more armored holy fight men. I don't see why we can't just have Paladins as 'the' holy/magic fightmen.

>>723012404
Original dnd cleric is more of a paladin than paladin ever was.

>>722983441 (OP)
You really can't, thats the design of mages: to be a do anything you can do but better class who is only limited by things like spell slots, mp, and casting times.

>>723012404
>Classes exist to define mechanics, not flavor
Well, lets start doing this. More simpler but open ended classes could be fresh, instead of having 300 classes to have that specific archetype you want.
Just stick to the rules that fighters can't use magic, mage must spend time learning and clerics types have to stick to rules to get both magic and fighting, and universally should fit the setting.
Ideally, the system would be flexible enough so that the player can make their fighter-type be incompetent in battle, but be a great medic and orator that can convince. And all of it being simple.

>>722983818
Nah

Warrior needs to be highest health and durability but lowest damage.

Mage needs elemental and arcane spells, summoning shit is not for them. They do medium damage, have low health and defense but high survivability due to ranged abilities and utility.

Rogue does highest damage of all of them to a single target only, has lots of tricks like poisons and stealth, worst survivability once the tricks and burst damage are done.

>>723013001
>Bashing some fucks skull in with a massive hammer or axe is lowest damage

>>723013001
I would have it more like this
Warriors are the most consistent way of doing things. Most consistent defenses and offenses, buffs and control abilities. Limited class abilities make them specialize at a roll however
Mage requires preparation to work, but can alpha strike on an enemy or save up their spells for something. Can fulfill a lot of combat roles but risks running out of resources too quickly, or thety never use their abilities at all.
Rogue is the luck-based class. Reliant on crits and dodge chance. Has a lot of utility but not a lot of buffs. A selfish class that is best at soloing.

>>722984062
>>722984062
not using dnd

>>722983441 (OP)
>play DRPGs
>never have this problem because frontline Warriors need to tank constant hits and are there to output consistent damage in all fights
>never have this problem because Mages will nuke dangerous enemy parties but are very limited in how many times they can do so
>never have this problem because Rogues are required to get treasure safely and getting treasure is the point
Idonno, it works fine for me. Maybe you should just play better games. It only becomes a problem if you look at it at an individual level, rather than a group party level.

>>723002525
>magick archer
>not 'arcane archer'
bro

>>722983441 (OP)
>Warrior
Braindead brown nigger
>Rogue
Cheapskate greedy kike who can't fight anything head on
>Mage
Limp wristed virgin incel who will never get laid

Everyone sucks. Deal with it.

>>723015221
How do we solve the problem that rogues are shit at everything combat related and you should never bring more than 1?

90% of this thread is gay.

Now that's out of my system, the trifecta exists cause it broadly covers what people want to do in a fantasy world. A lot of that's limited by braindead design that screams banalce like Josh Sawyer on meth, so you lean into what people actually like.

I really can't emphasize this enough: Stop Making Redundancies. Don't have Mages do what Rogues can do, and don't have Rogues do what Fighters can do. DnD hands mages utility spells and AC out the ass to the point you can munchkin the entire campaign, everyone else be damned - instead, have every non-mage thing have a dice-roll chance of failure, and bring back resource-heavy actions that have battle-turning payoff when prepped, but can't be pulled out of the ass. For rogues, combat should scream to not do shit head on - run, distract, set bait, all trickster shit that players love doing that buys time for others. Out of combat have them lead the social shit cause there's big overlap there, but blatantly penalize them based on rep and alignment. Fighters should be able to reach demigod status, but really have to either play smart beforehand, or get caught with their pants down without the others to cover them from shit that gets people killed IRL. Also lean into traditional lore stuff like apprentices and squires that might be managed by the GM/PC, or let randos drop in and out to dip their toes into the game. Above all, mythical feats should be team effort.

/walloftext

>>723017048
>90% of this thread is gay.
I will not read the rest of your slop fanfic literal novel you felt the need to post on /v/ for some reason.

>>722983441 (OP)
That's a self-made problem. Magic isn't real, so you reason that it could do anything, which means it ends up doing everything. How about you just don't do that? Because that's gay?

>>723017128
>malding at the obvious
The tranny doth project too much

>>723017470
>Sharty pic

>>723017531
You mean to say you deserve better, troon?

>>723017806
>troon
Holy projection

>>723017834
>nuh-uh
Here's your last pity (You).

>>723016460
Having larger enemy groups where the hide, sneak attack, and assassinate option is much more valuable. It doesn't quite solve it, since a backrow mage can still nuke your party on the first turn before the Thief had a chance to attack. Making thieves the archers of the group can also help, since it means that they can directly target the more vulnerable spellcasters in the back line directly while Fighters need to cut thru the frontlines first to get to them. Altho that presents the problem of your own Mages suddenly being one archer away from death.

There's also been the tendency to have advanced mixed classes. Yes, Thieves are worse than the Fighter/Thief Ranger class or Mage/Thief Bard class, but that applies equally to everyone. It's better to have some sort of Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Summoner on the fronlines since you've got three frontline tanks and being a backup healer or being able to summon a meatshield isn't a bad idea.

And then there's the inevitable conclusion of, is that really a problem? If it's a six-person party and three of them need to be frontline tanks, that's not a lot of variance even with four classes available. Sure, there's not much reason to bring two Thieves, but do you really want to give up your emergency nuke Mage or your party healing Cleric, even if you get an amazing class for doing so? Nobody is doing 3 Fighter 3 Mage or 3 Fighter 3 Cleric because it just gives up so much, and so Cleric - Mage - Thief as the backrow is fine because you don't want to toss out your Cleric or your Mage, not because you don't want a second Thief.

>>723018237
U mad lol

>>723017048
I agree but that ship sailed already because of retards dictate how things are.
>muh personalization i need to express myself
>muh everything must be viable
>muh i don't want to miss content