Thread 723937059

Easily the best roguelike and one of the best games of all time. Easily

We know

>>723937059 (OP)
2 when

not a roguelike but yes it's easily the best deckbuilder by far
>>723937201
early access in march apparently

im curious how the sequel is gonna work out. the original is so perfectly balanced that simply adding more "content" doesn't inherently make it better. i think what they could do is add a ton of more meta shit, achievement challenges like beating the game with only one relic, or only 5 cards and stuff like that. those are type of things you only play once though, but surely they could come up with some similar stuff that's interesting and re-playable.

>>723937059 (OP)
newfag post

>>723937714
i'm unironically probably the oldest oldfag on the board online right now

>>723937884
>t. vaxxmaxxed brown jew

>>723937059 (OP)
No. The best roguelike is this one.

I came back to the game after like 2 years and didnt recognize any classes. It became very random and it made me sad.
Did this really happen or am I nuts?

>>723937059 (OP)
artstyle is shite thoughbeit

>>723937059 (OP)
I don't even like rougelikes and I'm still addicted to this game after 2k+ hours. I usually play vanilla a20h but sometimes use spire biomes+chimera cards to add some spice. Anyone have mod recs?

>>723939696
>800 different items that dont tell you what they do even after you've picked them
the binding of isaac isnt even a good game

>>723939929
no you're nuts. the classes have stayed mostly the same, and the only real changes are a few minor numerical changes to energy cost or rarity, etc.

>>723940063
Packmaster is like adding a new game. Get the expansion pack too if you check it out:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2920075378

After playing Balatro for an hour I have vowed to never play another video game that utilizes cards as an operational mechanic ever again.

>>723940134
Uhhhh... yeah, they do? Whenever you pick an item, there's a subtitle that says what the item does.

Or you can just use the external item description mod.

I'm sorry but the Binding of Isaac is THE roguelike game. It easily mogs every single roguelike it's unreal.

Easily flagrant fanboy thread. Easily

>>723940421
The base game even has item descriptions now (I think external is still better overall, but w/e), after just beating Mom once, iirc

>>723938987
lol. People thought they were in a Romero movie

I like Noita more

>>723940832
is good but isaac better

>>723937646
im expecting it to be much worse
they shouldve hired the guy(s) behind the downfall mod. a lot of the new characters that mod added weren't great but there were some actually decent ideas in there that could form part of a good sequel if done well
regardless im super excited

I'm terrible and struggle even at A0 but game's fun

>>723940832
Noita is such a weird game. It has a very interesting gimmick with the physics engine and the wand crafting. But instead of expanding the core game experience with more normal content like bosses that make every run more unique and stuff like that, the developers just starting adding a bunch cryptic youtube and reddit bait, where you're supposed to start climbing up again, digging through the wall for 5 minutes with broken black hole wants, finding 6 secret stones with secret messages, placing the stones on a weird altar 6 parallel maps away, this unlocks a key, you can use if you create a wand to fly up in the sky for 5 minutes at a specific location, etc, etc. it's such a fucking bizarre direction for a developer to take the game. i have absolutely zero interest in spending 3 hours on a run where i follow some guide to find weird hidden items, and i dont think most people do either.

>>723940239
I've seen streamers playing this but kinda forgot about it, thanks.

>>723941345
>An idiot admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity, a physicist tries to make it simple, for an idiot anything the more complicated it is the more he will admire it, if you make something so clusterfucked he can't understand it he's gonna think you're a god cause you made it so complicated nobody can understand it. That's how they write journals in Academics, they try to make it so complicated people think you're a genius

>>723937059 (OP)
This game will never be good since the developers are so neglectful of terrible mechanics, such as Clash not being viable at all due to Ascension Bane, and imagine if they kept it that way for over a decade.

>>723941489
they ended up hamstrung by their desire to maintain the methods by which you can break the game, because it makes rebalancing or adding substantial content near impossible since you eventually get to a point where youre consistently bending the entire game over your knee by like the 2nd-3rdish area and doing anything to curtail that would completely and totally change the methods that are required by the player to access all the weird esoteric endgame shit
basically the game just needs a sequel, but i dont think most of the devs are interested in doing one

>>723941667
agreed that some of them are fucking dumb
I liked Hermit, and the concept of gremlins has legs (a summoner type)

>>723941489
I feel like it has quite a lot of content. I am pretty sure there are like 15-20 bosses, most of them you can just accidentally bump into. It also has a similar amount of biomes too.

>>723941984
yeah i was gonna say that the cowboy is the only good new character from that mod

>>723940421
it's not a roguelike thoughbeit

>>723940421
doesnt feel nice to play though

>>723942014
>I am pretty sure there are like 15-20 bosses
i have probably something like 20-40 hours of playtime in Noita, and the only boss i remember is the last one, and then some boss that appears when you destroy a big egg somewhere, and i dont think there was any apparent reason for me to open that egg in the first place. and that's my entire point. they keep adding all this content that's outside what a normal player would ever experience. if i wanted to see all these bosses, i would have to go on youtube or check out some guide where to even find them. all the content they're adding to the game is so cryptic and out of reach for normal players who just want to progress like a normal video game. it's like they made a pretty lackluster roguelike with some neat systems, but then put all the interesting content out of bounds. pic very related

>>723940063
"The Hermit" and "The Bug Knight" mods are both very well done and pretty balanced. "Magitek Elite" and "Sousou no Frieren" are also good but not as polished.
Downfall has a ton of content, but I assume you're already aware of that one.

>>723937059 (OP)
Yes. I doubt 2 can live up to it but I'm still buying that shit as soon as I can

>>723942396
A lot of the bosses you can stumble on by just exploring, they don't usually have requirements to spawn them. A handful are fairly easy to find in biomes near the surface going left or right. There is a lot of stuff in the game you probably have to look up like how to get mimmicium, and sometimes how to actually fight the bosses but I never thought finding them that hard, I just bumped into them. Friend is one that you have to go out of your way to find, I still have to try killing that one since I've never seen it.

>>723937059 (OP)
How do I get good? I'm stuck at Ascension 3 with Ironclad.

>>723943557
thats about as far as you can get without really planning for the threats in the game
are you thinking about the upcoming bosses and potential elites youll face and building to give yourself an out against them?

>>723942238
It does if you aren't under 25 years old

>>723943557
i just reinstalled the game a month ago and i made it to ascension 4 with every character without dying once, going for the heart every time. there's just so much you can improve upon that it's hard to specify one thing. but my biggest tip would be to try and be more selective of the cards you pick. every time you pick a new card, there will be a smaller chance of drawing the good cards already in your deck. you also have to find a balance between damage, block and card draw, and some way to gain additional energy. but of course this isn't true for every deck, but it's a good rule of thumb.

>>723943664
im 31
they leaned waaaaay too much into the peashooter feel and movements nothing great

>>723943662
Yeah, slime boss is grab multis, guardian is make sure you deal damage quick, build up defenses or you're dead, hexaghost is the same. Act 2 is kind of BS because they're all way strong so you want to get them down as soon as possible. Act 3 is basically working with Act 1+2 stuff. I only do Elites in Act 1 and avoid at all possible later on, so on average 1-2. 3 if the run is really going well. I've tried building Barricade, Demon Form, and Limit Break when I get them, but it's not consistent enough and I know you can improve consistency.

Anyone played Chrono Ark speaking of this?
Friend linked it to me, hadn’t heard of it before but it looks good, although I’m not a big weeb.

>>723943929
I've been to heart a few times. I don't know how to fight him yet. I just get to swing at him every time I get there. I've tried out small decks and big decks, but it's tough with defense. They take up space when you don't want them to and don't defend enough anyways when you do get them.

>>723944397
avoiding elites too much might be your issue, I wouldn't put a hard rule on it like you said.
if you're strong and you have the relevant tools to beat the elites in act 2/3 then you want to try snowball a bit

>>723944545
yeah and that's where draw comes in. you cannot just rely on being lucky to get the 5 cards you need every turn, so you have to be able to manipulate your hand. but you're right, you also have to learn how to actually beat the encounters in order to actually be able to prepare for them. the heart is the hardest boss in the game for a reason.

>>723944516
>weeb slop
i love card games but i wouldnt even pirate it

>>723944516
I only played it for a bit but it's pretty fun

>>723940421
>>723939696
>>723940134
CHEW YOUR STEAK

>>723940832
>>723941489
Noita is a good game but dishonest.

>>723944397
are there any builds you avoid?

>>723944545
Honestly you should consider looking up its moveset and the different mechanics you need to deal with. Sometimes discovering things through trial and error is fun, but when it's at the end of an hour long run I find it way too tedious.

>>723941667
My counterpoint would be that I'm not "admiring" theory, needless complexity, as stupid as it is, can be fun in videogames.

>>723937059 (OP)
I still have no clue how to play it. Reached ascencion 3 on multiple characters and still routinely die to either floor 1 or 2. Completely depending on RNG. Floor 2 DPS checks are the worst, cause you can't outguard them unlike floor 3.

>>723945989
AOE is very important for act 2. Immolation, Corpse Explosion, Electrodynamics, etc. Also make sure to spend your gold and kill as many elites and get as many upgrades as possible in act 1. It's a game about snowballing, and if you fall behind in power growth because you're scared of fighting elites or resting instead of upgrading, it becomes very hard to catch up.

>>723937059 (OP)
i got this game in a bundle awhile back, never played. i kinda enjoyed hearthstone's dungeon mode. will i like it?

>>723946673
>i kinda enjoyed hearthstone's dungeon mode
StS starts slower and deck building is also slower, but generally allows for a higher degree of customization throughout the run

>>723937059 (OP)
Slay the Spire is an absolutely astounding achievement in game design, and a pioneer of the genre. I love that game. Despite that, I think Wildfrost mogs the hell out of it in just about every regard. Designed more around strategy than random card draw, more appealing art, the charm system offers an insane amount of variety for upgrading your units and items compared to StS's linear card improvements. It's a terrible shame that so few people played it, and among those that did a good chunk of them got filtered by the difficulty (it's not actually that hard).

>>723947979
Sell me more on Wildfrost.

I was playing the Touhou themed Slay the Spire clone recently and something it made me appreciate is how great the Slay the Spire card art is at making it intuitive and memorable what the card does.
A card with a big weapon out is an attack, a card with the guy acting all defensive is a block, a card with a bouncing bottle with a skull on it is a multi target poison, this thing
>>723946585
is obviously having to do with your electric orbs as soon as you see it.

But in the touhou game, you have "anime waifu glamor shot with magic seals around her" the attack. "anime waifu glamor shot with magic seals around her" the defense. "anime waifu glamor shot with magic seals around her" the card that does damage and gives block and draws a card and gives you mana

This isn't meant as a knock on the touhou game so much as praise of the StS game, though. They just do a really great job at it

>>723948024
It has cute girls.

>>723939929
The game is pretty much exactly the same, you're a schizo.
I'm pretty sure the last balance patch was longer than 2 years ago.

>>723941345
Nah downfall is fun to mess around with but its jank as hell and terribly balanced.
Only good one is hermit and I dont think that team even made him.

>>723943557
From what I can remember (got to around acension 18 with ironclad), at least one viable route is to focus your stack around that card that aoe swings multiple times. Having that card proc a lot and buffing that card and any like it through synergies that can be looked up in supporting cards is a great method to melt bosses. Especially ones that constantly spawn adds, which become extremely annoying at higher levels.
I think funnily enough, I got pretty good at getting ridiculous block (like getting the card that doubles block or w/e), the card that allows you to keep your block and then the card that does damage based on your block.

>>723937059 (OP)
Why do people absolutely refuse to call games that clearly aren't roguelikes, roguelites?
There is no shame in a game being a roguelite. It just means it has roguelike elements and inspiration even if it's not a roguelike. Why do people refuse to?

>>723948416
Because no one cares about genre autism

>>723948469
Ocarina of Time is my favourite FPS. You can go First-Person and Shoot things.

i love watching the experts play this on youtube

>>723944979
Your loss. It's a better game than slay the spire.

>>723937059 (OP)
Bait. The game is a thoughtless ugly slot machine with a stupidly boring starting deck every single run. Shills will cope with "but muh winnable seeds!" as if cheating to see under the hood the perfect path in advance with all encounters, items, cards and shops known in advance was in any way relevant to an actual run where you make decisions with extremely limited knowledge.

>>723948797
i dont play video games to masturbate faggot

>>723944397
Typically building around a core gold is a good idea, but you should also look into building around ironclad's core uncommon cards. Second wind / power through / feel no pain / body slam is an insanely strong core, and is enough on its own to get you through a20 heart once you've exhausted everything. Second wind is probably one of the strongest cards in the game, just because of how quickly it shaves your deck down to your core.

Ironclad is essentially a balancing act between taking high value cards to get you through act 2 and exhausting all that garbage down to your core cards.

Strength is somewhat unreliable because the heart demands you have some form of damage mitigation, which are usually rare (impervious / reaper / good relic rng). Entrench is also a noob trap, it needs an upgrade and it's really bad without barricade. If you built your deck properly you usually don't need it.

>>723948821
You could strip the game of all its visual and non-card text. And it would remain the better card game. Because it's a better card game.

I hate that jorbz fag

>>723949071
>164 playing an hour ago
nah

>>723944838
honestly sometimes spear and shield are harder, two burns on top of draw pile is fucking bullshit, at least 5 statuses at the bottom is workable.

>>723949143
me too. just the way he talks, like a raging narcissistic faggot

>>723949242
he's so whiny

>>723943557
Unironically watch streamers. STS is one of the games where watching someone good play will teach you more than playing yourself, if you're stuck in a loop of bad decisions that you don't even realize are bad.

>>723949143
>>723949242
Good thing he slid into irrelevance, streaming FOTM slop to something like 300 people.
He was only tolerated because he was considered an authority on hard strategy games, but now he's been left in the dust by better players that also have a personality. You love to see it.

>>723949416
For real. There are so many moments when you realize something is trash and you've thought it was good the whole time.

Really good card gamers are on another level.

>>723949671
>>723949143
for me its baalorlord

>>723949182
So fucking what? There was a time when only /v/ was playing Slay the Spire. Before streamers and reddit and whatever caught on.
Was Slay the Spire a bad game then?

>>723950151
>There was a time when only /v/ was playing Slay the Spire.
never happened

>>723937059 (OP)
What's the appeal? I found it really boring

>>723950487
easy to learn, hard to master

>>723948416
They are a genre of games where when you die, all progress is reset (with some unlocks or meta-progression rarely introduced), as opposed to most games that have a "save" system, and often have a focus on randomization and proc-gen. Roguelike is the correct term.

>>723948797
If it was, streamers would have jumped on it long ago. There's a whole niche focused on finding hard strategy games and getting extremely good at them. If it was even half as good as Spire, it would be discovered and spread by word of mouth, like Slice & Dice did.
So no, it isn't, and your feelings are irrelevant.

>>723950068
Xecnar is undoubtedly the best player and probably the best teacher. He's been streaming for several years now and still takes the time to narrate his every choice so that you know WHY he just did something that didn't occur to you.

>>723950950
>look him up
>hear him talk
nah i just cant

>>723950487
You can play 10000 hours of this and memorize every single thing that happens, and you will still be required to think over your every decision if you want to win on a20. There are no meta strategies or safe solution, this game is as unsolvable as it gets.

>>723951029
>There are no meta strategies or safe solution, this game is as unsolvable as it gets.
im still waiting for someone to train an AI to play Slay the Spire and see what type of win streaks are possible.

>>723951265
I always wonder watching top players, if it's more calculation or gut. Like looking at your deck and deciding if you have enough AOE for act 2, is it something that can be determined by algorithm.

>>723948416
>>723948564
How is it relevant to you?
You can see within 0.0001 seconds if the game is actually a Rogue clone by looking at a single screenshot. 99.99% aren't.

Plus, "-like" does imply "takes inspirations from" more so than "-lite" which is meaningless, seeing that the vast majority of these games are more complex than Rogue and this implies the opposite.

Lastly you can just search for "traditional roguelike" instead to quench your strict turn-by-step, no meta, etc. gameplay autism.

>>723951645
>Lastly you can just search for "traditional roguelike" instead
and you can search for roguelite and stop bastardizing a great old genre you never heard of before 2015.

>>723951806
But I won't and you can stay mad.

>>723951520
there are so many statistical calculations you just cannot realistically do on your own, like is it worth prolonging the fight to fill up your relics to a specific number, based on your coming card draws, based on the enemys next attacks, based on what enemies might be in the next encounter, based on the odds of that enemies attack pattern, just as one single example. After thousands of hours you kinda learn this by gut as you say, and it's not really something you think about that much. But if you'd actually do the real calculations every single time you made a decision, i wonder how much further it would take you, and how close to that 100% win rate you could come.

>>723943557
cut the basic attacks asap and get the stronger attacks, you can use shield bash for free when upgraded so you can keep the defend cards

>>723951869
niggers never learn

>>723951806
if anything roguelite implies the games are even closer to actual Rogue, but made simpler, than roguelike does.
Plus we live in my superior reality, not yours. You being butthurt over this makes my day better.

>>723938987
Ah
I was in that thread
Full of false flagging bots

>>723950781
>If it was, streamers would have jumped on it long ago
disgusting post

>>723937059 (OP)
It's not even the best deckbuilder. That would be Monster Train 2.

>>723952226
>if anything roguelite implies the games are even closer to actual Rogue
on planet retard

>>723952203
reddit

>>723937059 (OP)
i punch the monster

sts is definitely one of the best roguelites ever made but i still think isaac takes the cake for being the best one, there really isn't a game that excels at the whole every run is different and you can break the game is super unique ways as much as isaac does.

for me its wildfrost

>>723952323
I was in that thread too. It was all real and it DID happen, but we are living in a Project Blue Beam simulation now.

>>723952609
Sorry but I actually want to kill heart and they forgot to give after image to defect to play that shit.

>>723950781
Didn't know that, can you recommend some of those streamers?

>>723937646
they delayed it a bit after Monster Train 2 came out, because they knew it wasn't enough
i trust them

>>723942396
>20-40 hours of playtime in Noita
oh so first win soon eh ?

>>723953132
Defect has a much better card to deal with the heart.

I beat A20 with three characters years ago but I can't beat the heart even A0

>>723950430
Look up the 2017 player counts for slay the spire.
That was /v/.

>>723953390
as if you need claw with inserter scaling like that

>>723952667
A second Wildfrost appreciator has hit the StS thread.

>>723937059 (OP)
>one of the best games of all time
It's nowhere close to being one of the best games of all time. It's a fun game, sure, but nothing about it is revolutionary or particularly great.

>>723953593
Shut up retard.

>>723953593
it created a genre

>>723953772
No it didn't, it popularized it. Dreamquest was the first one, and there are other prior roguelite deckbuilders.

>>723952667
>>723947979
monitoring the thread, trying this
IT IS SO FUCKING SLOW OMG every fight takes 20 minutes
also the cute edgy theme is annoying. pick a side ffs

>>723937646
my hopes for the sequel are low tbdesu. i fail to see how
>more characters new enemies and some tweaked cards
justifies being a whole new game. feels cashgrabby. it also took so long to be announced after sts1 finished getting updates that i suspect they were working on something else that got canned for whatever reason, and pivoted to cash in on brand name recognition

>>723953772
This zoomie does not remember Etherlords

>>723950068
hes a literal cuck

>>723954302
The StS engine is a mess, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the big updates were under the hood, just to make it a better platform for future content.

>>723954302
>it also took so long to be announced after sts1 finished getting updates that i suspect they were working on something else that got canned
I think it's more of a silksong situation where they made so much money on the first game they didn't need to work so they didn't.

>>723954202
There are no filler fights though. Think of each encounter as an Elite or Boss, then you go straight to the next Elite or Boss. It's brilliant.

>>723941667
>>723937646
>>723937059 (OP)
While StS was slightly faster in release, for me it's Astrea that will always be the pinnacle of roguelite deck(dice)builders.
Outside of also having ironed out mechanics and tasteful design, it mogs StS completely in AESTHETICS department. Also its more fun.

>>723953772
No it didn't, it just further refined it. Roguelike deck-builders existed before it, like Dream Quest for example, and its mechanics are borrowed straight from existing card games. The strategy is shallow once you learn the optimal tricks and paths, and it leans heavily on luck and repetition. Visually, it’s basic and on par with early flash games from the 90's, and nothing is particularly captivating. It’s addictive, yes, in the same way that a slot machine is, but it's just more of a dopamine loop than groundbreaking game design. Comparing it to games like Deus Ex, Half-Life 2, or Ocarina of Time is ridiculous. It's not even in the top 100 games of all time in reality.

>>723954680
>>723953670

>>723954512
>The StS engine is a mess
dunno what the original was in but the sequel was just being done in unity, and then they switched to godot after the controversy. that was all after the game had already been announced though im pretty sure

>>723954630
Played to the first boss, was bored as fuck. One card at a time, auto attack every 4 turn...zzz...you spend 80% of your playing time waiting for something to happen. And in between i read journal, added maybe 2 card to my deck and waited for little animations and lootbox sounds...

Filler fight are important, they're here so you can test you deck without to much risk, for attrition, for trying things and for rewards of course.

Any spire mods that animefy the game? I can't play unless I got some hot bitches on screen.

>>723954631
Astrea is a great game but I feel it let its design for dice and effects get a bit too convoluted and conditional sometimes

>>723948821
>>723949182
>>723950430
You sound brown

>>723954705
I bet you're the type who thinks a McDonald's hamburger is peak cuisine, and yet somehow it's other people you call retard.

>>723955464
You don't know anything about game design. Once again, shut up retard.

>>723937059 (OP)
Everyone says this but it's just a basic/boring deckbuilder. It didn't hook me at all. Mage Knight (the boardgame) was 10x better, with way more interesting mechanics, gameplay, lore, everything. What am I missing that is so "great" about StS?

>>723955756
Incredibly high skill ceiling.

>>723937059 (OP)
Monster Train 2 is definitely better. We'll see how Slay 2 turns out.

>>723948416
roguelike means random and permadeath just like soulslike means rolling and vague story
>nooo it's more complex than that
nobody cares

>>723955756
i hope you play HoMM3 friend

>>723955842
Not sure why you think that. Nothing about the game takes a high degree of 'skill'. It rewards knowledge of card synergies, enemy patterns, and basic resource management. But these are all just knowledge-based mechanics. Once you’ve internalized these and choose optimal paths, the game becomes trivial. It's just recognition, executing pathways and RNG/mitigation.

>>723956215
What's your a20h win rate?

>>723956215
post a20 streak

>>723937059 (OP)
not a roguelike but top 3 roguelites yeah

>>723952203
But White Chocolate has its own name. White Chocolate.
He isn't refusing to call White Chocolate, White Chocolate. And thus Chocolate and White Chocolate can co-exist.

But roguelite fans absolutely insist on calling their roguelites, roguelikes.
Even when searching for "Traditional Roguelikes" you'll find hordes of games in all manner of non-RPG genres that are completely detached from actually being roguelikes even by loose definitions.
But White Chocolate is White Chocolate. And they aren't refusing to call it that.

>>723950617
>>723956038
zamn tetris is a roguelike?

>>723954926
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3460818251

>>723956314
that would be a puzzle game

>>723937059 (OP)
wtf is a roguelike? What a worthless term.

>>723956450
means the game has randomness and permadeath

Best roguelike I have played this year.

>>723956538
What a dumb fucking name. Gamers are retarded.

>>723956589
i agree they should be called randopermadeathers instead

>>723956450
>>723956538
Nah. It means a game that has 4 levels (or less) that you just play over and over with aloghtly different builds and that's "fun" for some reason. Probably because of the completely artificial "progression" a lot of them have.

>>723937059 (OP)
>easily the best-smelling turd of all time
lmao.

>>723956038
>roguelike means random and permadeath
Roguelite.
Roguelike is an actual genre.

Roguelite are a couple of combined gameplay elements that you can apply to actual genre under the sun.
Roguelike is a genre and if you make it another genre then it's no longer a roguelike.

Like "Action Roguelike" is the dumbest oxymoron I've ever heard. It's like taking a shooter game that's exclusively played in the third person, and calling it a first person shooter.

>>723956250
>>723956258
Sure, right after you post your chess ELO. If you think Slay the Spire demands a high degree of skill, that should be transferable to other games built on math and strategy, right? I guess you think an A20 Heart kill with a Snecko Eye equals a grandmaster.

>>723956306
I specifically use the r-word as inappropriately as possible just to fuck with anal autistics like you.
Seriously that shit is on the same level as Chris-chan chimping out over the color of sonic's arms. There is some deep insanity in this.

>>723951520
I think a lot of it is gut, but there's still some calculation going on. Stuff like roughly totaling up how much damage every card does in your deck and then dividing that over how many turns it takes to draw your whole deck to get a rough max damage per turn estimate, useful think about for fights that you can't really stall at all like act 1 elites. But of course even that is only ever able to be a rough estimate because you don't know your draw order.

>>723956950
>evading the question

Predictable. Do better.

>>723955308
>too convoluted and conditional sometimes
What is the matter?
Don't you want to change enemy attack to something that will deal more damage then all your lives and kill you, your family and all your pets (sentinels)?

>>723937059 (OP)
>thinly veiled recommendation thread

>>723937059 (OP)
peak indie slop from, and for, minds that think spongebob is the apex of entertainment.

>>723956950
>if you think this card game allows for complex strategies then you must be a master player of an unrelated board game
nigga what

>>723957652
probably the most midwit post in this thread

>>723943557
grab snecko eye, pick expensive cards like a retard, win

>>723957209
I quite like roguelikes. The actual genre of roguelikes.
But what do I find when I search for roguelikes? Completely different genres.

And you think it's Chris-chan level chimping to be upset at this?
You just decided to take a steaming pile of shit on an old established genre for no good reason. And you're defending it too.

>>723951029
>There are no meta strategies or safe solution
nobody tell him about watcher.

>>723958495
listen bro, i get it, i really do. but "roguelite" was faggy and nobody ever wanted to use it, its a lost cause. I'd love to seem ore actual roguelikes like the Shiren games, but the genre has fully been genericized to include anything with RNG powerups.

>>723958706
>but "roguelite" was faggy and nobody ever wanted to use it
But why?
I can't even fathom what the supposed problem is.

>>723958754
well for starters, its not visually distinct from roguelike, its one letter off. it's "cute" (read faggy) trying to spin a new genre like that, but it failed for that very reason, a lack of distinction.

>>723958820
It was effectively just a shorter way of saying
>with roguelike elements
Which people would absolutely not bother with since it's so wordy. Also evident by how people so rarely care to say
>with rpg elements

>>723957709
That’s not what I said. I never claimed StS lacks strategy. I said its “strategy” is built on memorized mechanics and RNG, not mathematical skill. Knowledge isn’t skill, and luck isn’t mastery. If you think it has an extremely high skill ceiling, then that skill should transfer to games like chess, where success is pure logic.

>>723937059 (OP)
Not a roguelike. Also, "pick from 3 randomly selected things" and its consequences has been a disaster for indie gaming design.

>>723958918
sure, but then when explaining the genre to someone who is new to the conversation, you have to go "rogueli"T"e" not to be confused with "roguelike" and they'll go "why not just call them all roguelikes? which is what ultimately happened.

>>723958546
We don't talk about the watcher.
Seriously it's like a character from a bad mod, I'm not sure why is it in the game.

>>723957407
You’ve done nothing but deflect. You haven’t made a single argument or clarified what “incredibly high skill ceiling” even means. I laid out my reasons for thinking the game only rewards game knowledge/rng. It's you that needs to do better, not me.

>>723960074
There is verifiable proof that your statements are wrong, so I'm asking for proof that you even know what you're talking about.

>>723960258
>>723960074
get a fucking room

>>723937059 (OP)
the Nortubel of rouge likes

>>723960258
>There is verifiable proof that your statements are wrong
Yet, you haven't posted anything. Nice try.

>>723960074
Post your rotating a20 win streak fagboy.
Don't have one? Not in position to talk anything about skill in this game. Simple as.

>>723958931
>then that skill should transfer to games like chess, where success is pure logic.
I don't think a grandmaster in chess is also going to be a grandmaster in go/weiqi, but I could be wrong.

>>723960632
There is a handful of players who consistently get 80-90% win rates that nobody else can approach.
If the game was only knowledge and RNG, anyone with a wiki and a calculator should be able to approach those win rates. So
1. why don't they?
2. what's your win rate?

>>723960941
I don't think you're in the position to call anyone "fagboy" when you're getting this upset and mad over your favorite video game being perceived as lesser skill than you believe. Guess you've attached your ego to your many hours wasted at the slots.

>>723961516
Post your rotating a20 win streak.

>>723961508
You’re confusing performance with proof. A handful of players grinding out 80–90% win rates doesn’t demonstrate high-order skill, it shows they’ve memorized the system and optimized it through repetition and time investment. That’s knowledge fluency, not cognitive depth. And your wiki analogy is like saying “anyone with a cookbook should bake a perfect cake.” In reality, most people don’t have the patience, time, or energy to internalize the recipe or the will/desire to execute it properly. That doesn’t make the system deep, it just makes it time/effort-gated. Most people that do beat A20, probably do use guides and wiki's though, just like most people that bake a cake use a recipe.

>>723940382
>writing off an entire genre based off its worst entry
This is the equivalent of playing halo 1 and never touching any other fps because it made you think the whole genre had glacial movement.

>>723962239
Didn't read.
Post your rotating a20 win streak to prove that your opinion isn't completely worthless.

What is it about this game specifically that attracts retards that think they've got big brains that have no fucking idea what they're talking about?

>>723962513
its just popular. happens with literally every popular game

>>723937059 (OP)
Not even the best game of its kind.
Vault of the Void is just better in every way.

>>723962239
>it just makes it time/effort-gated.
Also known as skill, retard.

>>723962513
It’s likely because games like this are engineered to stimulate reward pathways, much like gambling. When people invest thousands of hours into a system built on incremental dopamine hits, they need to believe it’s expanding their mind. The alternative, that they’ve been grinding a glorified slot machine, is too uncomfortable. So they inflate the complexity, mythologize the skill, and gatekeep the illusion.

>>723962967
yeah that's a great example

>>723962929
Sure, if wasting time efficiently counts as high-level play.

>>723944516
It's the best of the best imo. I did not care about its story, characters, or world at all. I skipped like 85% of the dialogue between characters because it is all boilerplate anime writing. That said the actual mechanics of the game itself are so far beyond the rest of the competition there is no comparison. Specifically boss mechanics are very novel and require significant flexibility to work out how you play around them. It also has ridiculously good music. Every time I go to bloody park I just chill and let it play a bit.

If you like weebshit and trash anime writing then you will probably love the story elements. It's not badly done, it's just a style of writing and topic(s) that have been done to death.

>>723954631
>it mogs StS completely in AESTHETICS department.
If that screenshot is meant represent that, you must be legally blind. Absolute vomit.

>>723963117
Ok so we went from "you can't get good at it" to "you can get good at it but it's a waste of time", good job.
Guess what all of vidya are.

>>723947979
Wildfrost has a great aesthetic and the gameplay is fun. It doesn't have near the amount of depth nor difficulty of spire. Wildfrost has that monster train like quality to it where you can reliably make 1 retardedly broken engine every run no matter what and steamroll the game. Even with the storm bells system I was able to easily do 100% winrate at max randomized bells. That is the sign that the base systems are structurally flawed.

If you just like making big numbers and steamrolling things then you'll like wildfrost. It is a good game and I much prefer it over its cousin monster train(s) in that department.

If you want deckbuilders that actually require player thought and rewards adaptability and piloting skill stick to spire or try out chrono ark.

>>723937373
it is a roguelike, the first few card unlocks are basically access to the full game and each run is a blank slate reset without cross run meta progression
fucking zoomtwats are brainrotted so much that roguelike and roguelite definitions and distinctions are as buttfucked as soulslike or metroidvania

>>723954302
The biggest changes will be visual.

>>723963329
Nah, I never said you can’t get good at it. I just refuted the idea that the game has an “extremely high skill ceiling”. I think it rewards knowledge and time investment, but not deep cognitive skill. Applying knowledge is a skill, sure, but it’s low-level and bounded. That’s the point. You seem to think time = skill though, so I don't know what else to tell you.

>>723963182
I'm adding first image of the games grabbed from google for comparison, so anyone following this discussion could call you a dishonest nigger.

>>723937059 (OP)
>Easily the best roguelike
No.

>>723958931
Imagine ranting about memorization and the offering up chess as the example of a game that does not reward memorization. The pinnacle of modern chess is cucking to a computer and memorizing "computer moves" lines.

>>723964380
The top 3 in no particular order are this, sts, and chrono ark.

>>723964380
Never heard of this one before, qrd?

>>723948617
Fuck yeah, Baalorlord.
He's like the Mr. Rogers of streamers.
Antithesis to /v/s toxicity.

>>723937059 (OP)
Just did a cool defect infinite. Infinite energy, infinite card generation,

>>723954631
chinese garbage. begone shill

>>723965445
>Baalorlord
Hm interesting so Card A is pretty solid. However Card B presents some interesting synergies which work with the card we already have and could really pop off if we got this certain power. Card C has some real utility against the boss of this act and two of the possible elites and would be very helpful for us. I'm going to take Card A.

>>723948617
>>723965445
>>723966332
hes a literal cuck

>>723964678
You’re ironically just proving my point. Top-level chess players memorize engine lines because the game is so mathematically deep that intuition alone isn’t enough. That level of strategic memory supports reasoning and adaptive play.

In Slay the Spire, it’s not like that. You use what's called rote learning, where you just do something repeatedly until it becomes intuition. It’s efficient, but it doesn’t demand deeper comprehension or critical thought. That’s the difference. It's like when schools teach children to repeat their times tables over and over in drills, so they can do it through intuition, rather than through cognitive ability, like mathematical skill.

Doing actual math requires logic and problem-solving. Recalling answers through intuition is fast, but cognitively shallow.

>>723937646
Yeah my hopes are very low that the sequel is going to be as good or equal to the first game. It's so incredibly rare that a developer can actually capture lightning in a bottle twice and make a sequel as good as a game that was a masterpiece. Look at what happened to Fights in Tight Space's sequel. Back before the 2010s you saw it more often but now days it's rare.

>>723964206
then what the fuck is the point in it existing?

>>723965382
Dice-based roguelite. Every party member and enemy has their own 6-sided dice that determine their attacks/abilities.

>>723966747
sts1 is pure spaghetticode and they could not keep working on it without wanting to kill themselves from sheer technical debt

>>723964380
This is pretty good i'll admit. There aren't enough classes though. Hopefully the next major update will address that.

>>723948159
my favorite LBoL art is the "silly" variants which include several different "<character> offering a wine glass"

>>723954631
>more ironed out mechanics and tasteful design
Is this a joke?
The retarded "damage is also heal!" premise means that literally every fight is just a DPS check.
And the game has approximately six fucking hundred slightly different variations of actions, all of which are just DPS checks.
It's genuinely the most bloated yet paradoxically shallow game I've ever seen.

>>723964327
>ESL
>Shilling chinese slop
typical

>>723956545
>furryslop
kill yourself

>>723967782
kill me yourself faggot

>>723966669
Nothing anyone says to you will convince you otherwise, but you just equated literal implementation of rote memorization as a sign of a game not leaning on rote memorization vs. a game that requires on the fly adaptation which you bizarrely are insisting is a rote memorization exercise. In short you are retarded. Also your fixation on chess outs you as a poo.

>>723966747
Presentation matters.
>>723944979
This is arguably the best game in the whole thread and look at the reaction that anon had to it.

>>723967883
american zoomers love chess too anon, it's crazy how many middle school and highshool kids these days are into chess because of those twitch streamers playing it.

>>723968001
>combining rpg elements with roguelike
yeah nah bro. you're retarded if you think those ever work together.

I'm at A20 but I barely get to the third act double boss unless I get an absurdly OP deck/relic combo... how do the pros dew it?

>>723968087
Zoomers don't display this level of doublethink. They are too retarded to climb dunning-kruger mountain and declare themselves experts. This is textbook poo behavior.

>>723967701
>instantly resorts to chink blaming
>even when devs are french living in Brasil

>>723937059 (OP)
its ok for a bit, but once you've seen it all it gets really boring

I hate deckbuilders because in every single deckbuilder known to man, you're supposed to avoid taking cards so you can have a deck as small as possible. The cards are the whole point of the fucking game and you're supposed to hate getting them. The cards are the fucking encounter REWARDS and you're supposed to be snobby and skip them.
I can't think of any other genre that does something this stupid. Imagine any other game genre where the default state is avoiding as much content as possible.

>>723968478
Some builds in Diceomancer don't suffer from this. it's pretty unique and the only chinese game i'll give a pass to.

>>723964204
if it doesn't look like this it's not a roguelike why is this so hard for you fucking retards to understand

>>723968674
everyone understands, it's just that nobody cares because it's a pointless and autistic distinction

>>723968159
It doesn't have any meta progression or character scaling outside of the run. What it does have is each encounter gives you a resource you can use to level up characters to purely increase stats. You also use that same resource to create card draw skills or to increase max mana per turn. So there is a layer of strategy in how you manage that resource effectively. There's also per run equipment you can loot for stats and other bonuses and relics. Although in general Chrono Ark relics are much less impactful than spire's relics. There are a few conditionally insane relics of course. Again, none of this persists and is all decided during the run.

>>723968379
That's even worse kek

>>723968731
they should because the term has become as diluted as RPG or action-adventure game
it wasn't a pointless distinction but you fucking retards that don't even play roguelikes decided to co-opt the term and use it describe games that are nothing like rogue

>>723968674
i hate that some games are good but the graphics are so incredibly shit i cant play them
shattered pixel dungeon does it right, stuff like caves of qud not

>>723969105
nobody fucking cares about "games that look like rogue". it's a dead genre. the few autists that still care about it are so deep in that garbage that they don't need a term for it.
meanwhile, the co-opted term is actually useful and relevant to more than 5 people. the term became more useful, not less.

After I did Ironchad to 20 I asked who next and someone said silent. So I'm just dropping by to say I'm working on it.

>make a trailer bragging about how your game isn't delayed
>game gets immediately delayed and will release as early access
hilarious

>>723967883
>Nothing anyone says to you will convince you otherwise
This is a non-argument. You’re essentially saying that I can’t be right, just because. And you think I’m retarded. Again, it’s ironic. And the fact you think I’m fixated on chess, when I mentioned it only once initially is another point to your own retardation and lack of comprehension. I was replying to you, because you brought it up and replied to me. Plus the fact you’ve just outed yourself as a racist as well, and no I’m not Indian, but if I was, that wouldn’t make you any less wrong. Again, the irony is strong with you. I’m sorry that I don’t think your favourite game is as deep as you think it is. If you think your thousands of hours invested in a slot machine game make you smart and that beating the game makes you feel competent, then you do you bro. You should be proud of your thousands of hours invested and not get so upset at a strangers opinion on the internet.

>>723969287
the real difficulty starts with ascension 17+ where all the enemies get buffed

>>723964216
High skill ceiling = you can get much better than others. Whether you think it requires cognitive skills or not is irrelevant, and you're also wrong.
There are people with many more hours in the game that are worse than the top players, and the game knowledge is a closed set that you get to learn by heart before you reach ascension 20. Beyond that is who UNDERSTANDS the game better.
You still have not told us your win rate btw.

>>723969702
the real difficulty ends in ascension 19 when they made the mind-bogglingly retarded decision to make shield and spear turn 1 put two burns on the TOP of your draw pile, which is a difficulty spike bigger than the actual fucking final boss

reminder that lifecoach raped jorbs

>>723969701
So are you going to engage with the core of the argument that you raised a direct example of implemented rote memorization (engine lines lmao) and tried to pass that off as superior to a game that, by its very nature, cannot be solved in the same way? Or are you just going to whine like a tumblr fuck because someone called you a bad name that invalidates everything. You're still not beating the poo allegations.

>>723941667
downfall dev and I hate automaton and would remove him and start over with a completely different idea if I was allowed to, encode is just really bad as an idea once you get past the wow factor
tried to rework him like 3 different times and it never happened, encode is just fucked on the base level, he lacks a "third big thing" or any real sub-things and status is too similar to ironclad's sub-thing of exhaust in status
at this point I'd rather publish awakened one because people like new characters more than reworks

>>723970185
>n-no YOU'RE a poo!! YOU'RE the one mad about the poo name!!
you both sound like insufferable faggots and it's telling how nobody else gives a fuck about what you're arguing about

>>723969960
who cares about the second to last fight
the most important part of high ascension sts runs is act 1

>>723970003
>jorbs was so mindbroken that he made a video about totally-not-lifecoach and how he's still a better player despite winning less

That was more sad than funny desu, also I think that was the day jorbs lost the last shred of credibility he had in the STS community.

>>723970282
>who cares about the second to last fight
nobody, right up until ascension 19 makes one change so stupidly broken that your whole run is put up to a single RNG check

>>723970378
It was hilarious. Jorbs was always such a smug asshat.

>>723937059 (OP)
>troon the spire
>best at anything

>>723941667
This character was cool and not hard

You fuse three cards into one and there might be a downside like get two dazes, that's it.

>>723949143
>>723949242
>>723949392
Only on /v/ could you find people so incensed about someone so mild and inoffensive

>>723950068
Doesn't he only do seeded runs or something?

>>723970279
There's a reason to include stupid pointless insults in posting. It's a filter to select for who is interested in engaging with ideas and who is merely arguing for the sake of winning an argument. Debatelord "win at all costs" retards will always take the offered insult offramp and derail and deflect away from the actual ideas being discussed because they only care about "winning". But that shit doesn't fly here and no one is going to give you a win for pointing out that someone said something mean.

>>723970720
Go away jorbz, I still remember when baalor got his 20 streak, you invited him to your stream only to talk about yourself and your streaks (that were beaten at that point).

jorbs got raped so bad that the mere mention of 52 caused him to have a panic attack and wrote a children's book on how bad lifecoach raped him

>>723969285
and this new better term now describes:
-deckbuilders
-arpgs
-turn based tactics games
-survivor games (I don't know what the proper term for this is)
-whatever picrel is
-first person action games
the only thing these games have in common is permadeath, random stacking perks, metaprogression because losing feels bad, and the real reason: low budgets that required procgen to stretch out a game
it was a useful descriptor for games like nethack or cogmind and now it is fucking useless garbage for indie games that have interesting gameplay ideas (like 5% of them) but they needed a reason to make you want to play it forever
fuck you

>>723969806
>High skill ceiling = you can get much better than others
Then we have different opinions on what a skill ceiling is. What you’re talking about there, is what’s called ‘relative skill’, which is how good someone is compared to others. A skill ceiling on the other hand, is how much mastery a game or skill allows before hitting its mechanical or strategic limits, and this in relation to games and skills in general. Those are two distinct things.

And the idea that cognitive skills are irrelevant is also something I disagree with. Because things like logic and math, are some of the deepest skill sets known to man.

The points I’m making about SyS isn’t that it doesn’t take any skill, but in relation to other games, it’s not an extremely high skill ceiling like that other Anon mentioned. The game is limited in scope and not that complex in relation to other games. It’s a game with a fixed amount of rules, cards and systems, all that can be easily memorised and mastered through repetition. It’s time and investment gated mostly, but those things are also not skills, they’re effort.

>>723971249
People are still raising STS win rates so the skill ceiling is unknown. But we know you can't calculate your way to the top, you need intuition and, again, understanding.

>all that can be easily memorised and mastered through repetition

Except they can't, otherwise you'd have legions of gooks grinding their way to the top by sheer playtime. And that's not happening. The skill is being able to picture how your next decision will affect the rest of the run, and you won't improve at it by just playing more. You need to reflect on and analyze your mistakes. And to even do that, you must first identify the mistakes. What worked and what didn't and why.

>can't into SnS
Shitter bros...how to git gud?

>>723971020
Yap

>>723971249
applying game knowledge to maximize your chances of winning is the game itself, it's a card game inspired by board game mechanics anon.
it's simplicity is its strength - allowing it to be well balanced but have a surprising amount of depth.
it doesn't have the skill ceiling of say, Dota, but I think that's a moot comparison since they are way different games.

They way you deride StS makes it seem like you just dislike strategy games in general and isn't really a flaw of the game. What are your favorite high skill ceiling games anon?

Which cards you never skip

>>723969701
> Plus the fact you’ve just outed yourself as a racist as well,
Damn. You were fucking that guy up until this blunder

>>723972890
No such thing. Closest would be adrenaline I guess.

>>723937059 (OP)
Completed it.

Its absolute kino game if you like korean weebshit but expect vn story written by the guy who made AnotherDanganronpa, with ecchi camerashots (the lead programmer dev made an entire casino dlc PURELY so he could have the mesugaki tank Momori in a pinkwhite bunnysuit skin)
alongside the roguelike gameplay.

>>723972890
You can never go wrong with echo form and wraith form. For common cards, it's cut through fate.

>>723944516
>>723944979
Meant for the chrono ark anon, whoops
>>723973394

>>723972832
>They way you deride StS makes it seem like you just dislike strategy games in general
That’s not my intention. I’m not saying it’s a bad game, or even an easy game, or anything of the like, I was just initially replying to an anon that claimed it had an “extremely high skill ceiling”. I just disagreed with that, that’s all. It’s also why I mentioned chess, since it’s a game that everyone knows, and one that clearly does have extreme depth. If you want me to mention video games, then it’s obviously things like StarCraft 2, Dota 2, Street Fighter, Rocket League, and Counter-Strike. In terms of a skill ceiling, these games are infinitely higher in my opinion.

Will you get it? Do you have the regular version?

>>723969701
Are you going to respond to the post equating weiqi and chess, or are you just going to continue pretending it doesn't exist?

>>723972890
StS is way more deep than chess though
StS will never match the skill ceiling of games with mechanical requirements, but for strategy games it's pretty high skill ceiling.

>>723974057
>StarCraft 2, Dota 2, Street Fighter, Rocket League, and Counter-Strike. In terms of a skill ceiling, these games are infinitely higher in my opinion.
Nah.

>>723974653
I think Dota 2 yes, almost strictly higher skill ceiling for that game.
that said note they are all multiplayer games, and not strategy games so comparing them vs StS is kind of useless.

>>723962795
Coming in late to say based and spider mommy soon

>>723937884
>thinks Slay the Spire is one of the best games of all time
>oldfag
newfag nigger

Anyone played StarVaders?
Fuck the Sponges, 9 hit enemies in a game where most have 2 are insane.

>>723966287
It's brazilian actually

>>723964380
Runs are too samey with not enough variation. Some heroes and items are clearly better than others, often you feel you're getting shit on by the RNG because you were never offered anything decent.
Also not enough player agency in the macro, you get to choose 1 of 2 options every floor and that's it. And it's often between lv 6 garbage you have no use for vs other lv 6 garbage you have no use for and you can't even roll for random lv 6 garbage because the game is offering 6x worthless lv 1 garbage instead.
The undo button inside fights is neat, STS2 could use that.

Post essential mods.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1961933183

>>723976123
>>723956365

>>723974934
If you’re going to call something “extremely high skill ceiling” in general, then you’re comparing it to all games and activities, not just within its genre. So whether it’s multiplayer, single-player, or even a video game, it doesn’t matter. It’s about how much mastery the game allows and how far that mastery can go in terms of human skill in general.

If you said ‘Slay the Spire has a high skill ceiling for a single-player roguelike deck-builder’, then I’d agree. Even though I’ve not played many. But if we’re comparing it to all games, like that original Anon suggested, then it falls short. It has a fixed set of cards and patterns, and once you’ve played enough, it becomes about recognizing what you’ve already seen.

Games like StarCraft, Dota 2, Street Fighter, and Rocket League constantly evolve and force players to adapt, react quickly, and make smart decisions, all while under pressure. That’s why their skill ceilings are higher.

And while Rocket League, Street Fighter, and Counter-Strike aren’t labeled strategy games, they absolutely involve strategy, and cognitively, they’re much harder. Take Rocket League for example, you’re reading the field, predicting bounces, anticipating opponents, positioning yourself, and adjusting your car’s angle and speed, all in split seconds. Your brain is doing complex calculations while tracking everything else that’s happening. That’s a level of thinking far beyond what Slay the Spire asks for.

>>723978535
You continue to be wrong.
As stated before, people are still pushing A20 win rates, which means it's still possible to get better and that we don't know where the limit is.
And comparing action games to turn based strategy is stupid, they require completely different talents, there is no one universal measure of skill that you can apply to everything.
Is Joe Satriani more skilled than Garry Kasparov?

>>723979251
You're missing the point. I'm not saying Slay the Spire has no depth or that people can't improve, or that pushing A20 win rates isn’t impressive in some context. But that doesn't mean its skill ceiling is as high as games that demand mastery across more dimensions. And the Anon specifically said it has an “extremely high skill ceiling” in the general context.

Saying “you can still get better” applies to almost any game or activity. The question is, how much better can you get, and how many types of skill does the game challenge? That’s what defines a skill ceiling in general terms.

As for comparing genres, yes, they use different talents. But if you're going to call a game "extremely high skill ceiling" in general terms, then it's fair to compare it across genres. Otherwise, you'd say "high skill ceiling for a roguelike deckbuilder” like I said previously, which is a narrower and more accurate claim.

And the Satriani vs. Kasparov analogy actually proves my point. If you're comparing skill in general, you’d have to look at how deep their mastery goes in each and every domain and compare that in a fair and objective matter. That’s exactly what I’m doing with games.

>>723979251
>>723979912
stop fighting and kiss already

>>723976123
Kek

>>723967635
>just a DPS check
He said, forgetting that he is on StS thread

>>723979912
>But if you're going to call a game "extremely high skill ceiling" in general terms, then it's fair to compare it across genres. Otherwise, you'd say "high skill ceiling for a roguelike deckbuilder”
What grade autism is this?
And your definition is wrong, when talking about skill ceiling in games, the meaning is "how far can you take the mastery of this particular activity", not how many different talents it checks. So as said before, the difference between the top player and the average player.

>>723981684
>he picked the dogshit rare

>>723937059 (OP)
>it's another episode of silent getting 3 non poison skills for her first floor reward
>it's another (brief) episode of silent runs into Lagavulin
>it's another episode of being nearly pasted by an elite and getting rewarded with Juzu Bracelet
>it's another episode of Ironclad didn't get bloodlust or an energy relic going into act 2
>it's another episode of defect being off by 1 from Sunder killing an enemy
>it's another episode of Watcher not getting any more wrath cards until act 3
>it's another episode of being 2 gold short of buying the membership card in your first shop
>its another episode of "why does this A20 map have only single elite paths?"

>>723982012
>being 2 gold short of buying the membership card in your first shop
You realize that if you had 2 more gold, the correct play would not be buying the membership card, right?

>>723937646
>>723941345
I do know one of the devs they hired for 2
but 90% of his work is probably only engine related stuff, so at best I can say it shouldn't run like a piece of shit (Godot quirks notwithstanding), he's a smart dude

What do I buy? I got storm of steel, flying knee and terror added so far. Otherwise I'm at the very beginning.

>>723983103
medkit
it's not that good, i just like it

>>723983103
I haven't played in a long time and forgot all the relics but dramatic entrance carries you through most of act 1

>>723983103
You have a boss relic for 157 gold, what are you even debating?
Prioritize relics over cards, you can see a card again but not a relic. Also relics don't need to be played.

>>723983103
Storm of steel is only good if you have dead branch. Panache would go fairly well with it, though.
You could take glass knife if you’re worried about elites and can get an upgrade. Or you could just remove a strike.

>>723983103
Best option is probably remove and maybe crippling. Prep bag or puzzle are also decent options. At ascension 14 I would just take Panache because it's fun and you already have storm

>>723969960
I'll have to agree with this one. I see so many complaints about gremlin nob, time eater or heart but rarely any hate for spear + shield.
I think slay the spire has some amazing balancing in general. Turn 2 of spear + shield is one of the few major missteps I can think of.
Only a gambling brew can guarantee you some relative safety. Otherwise you gotta pray to get all your broken shit down on turn 1 or that your turn 2 is absolutely RNG blessed.

>>723972890
The real contender for "never skip" gotta be Seek. Time eater and the Hearts beat of death are the only downsides, but I don't think they outmatch the benefits of Seek.
There is only one card in the game that says "I don't actually care what your deck does. This card will allow you to achieve a win sooner."

>>723937059 (OP)
I dont know card

>>723983103
Bag of prep + crippling cloud. I dont even need to see your Act 1 boss to make that choice. I would buy that for all 3 bosses.

>>723970003
For me, it’s baalor. Even if he can go a little too hard on the wholesome chungus routine. I’m watching him now and he just got so excited about a card reward that he accidentally closed the game. God bless him

>>723970378
He remains the only streamer I’ve ever unfollowed. What a pretentious cunt.

>>723986101
I can't stand his language gymnastics trying to apply the tranny pronouns to things that are clearly male or female.

>>723968478
>I hate deckbuilders because in every single deckbuilder known to man, you're supposed to avoid taking cards so you can have a deck as small as possible.
monster train 2 rapes you for doing this though

>>723985896
>>723984006
>>723983845
>>723983736
>>723983417
>>723983219
Well, I'm not saying what happened I got my ass beat.

>>723986293
I’ll give you that.
Not enough to ruin my enjoyment of the stream, but it is irritating.

>>723986694
Tell us what you bought in the shop at least.

>>723963130
I actually don't expose myself much to anime BECAUSE the boilerplate tropes irk me.
Maybe that will make me more resilient though. If it goes on sale maybe I'll pick it up them.
For now though, Siralim Ultimate is stealing my fucking soul.

>shiv decks with dead branch
>defect runs with snecko eye

>>723986694
It says here you removed a strike in act 1?

>>723940832
>>723941489
You might like Magicraft. Plays like Binding of Isaac, or Enter the Gungeon, but has a spell crafting system clearly ripped from Noita. If you can get past the visual puke of rainbows and shit, it's a pretty satisfying game for the same reasons Noita is satisfying.

r8 my act1 deck

>>723985503
scrawl?

>>723987556
takes 40 damage to birds / 10

>>723987556
I'm sure it'll scale perfectly well into the endgame.

>>723987874
Also up there, yes. But you could still draw garbage with scrawl. What you seek is what you get.

>>723953593
>to be the best you have to be revolutionary
Massive retard right here.

>>723985720
Clever

>>723987983
I actually do have an A20 heart run with perfect strike meme build BUT I found that I more or less needed snecko and good fight luck (got to upgrade 3 of them by act 2) to make it take off. And I still pivoted to strength partway through iirc.

>>723937059 (OP)
Played a bit of it and it's kinda neat and all but there's like no content at all? You just keep doing the same thing with more artificial difficulty?

Also why did they even include the robot dude? Playing as him is such ass lmao. Just go with the assassin and it's piss easy, the knight or the monk if you want more of a challenge, but the robot sucks so much dick.

STS is the greatest midwit filter of all time. You didn't lose because you failed to draw a certain card at the right time or because of RNG, you lost because you added a junk card twenty floors ago that fucked your draw, not to mention wasting a potion four floors ago that could've saved you when you needed it. Or maybe you died because you pathed into forced elites with no bonfires, or that hallway fight that you lost hp in with lazy micro, either way this game affords you so much agency that it's up to you to be able to identify the critical points in your run and avoid traps that aren't easy to spot if you pattern play everything without thinking. The most interesting runs are with sub optimal neow rewards and how you play around that. It's so easy to win high rolls but the skill is how you pilot and navigate through the low rolls into a victory.

I'm a big beta art enjoyer.

>>723990723
>you lost because you added a junk card twenty floors ago that fucked your draw, not to mention wasting a potion four floors ago that could've saved you when you needed it.
Wow... sounds fun....

>>723986293
>>723986789
What does he say for example?
Anyway I like watching the homosexua known as amaz. He plays fast and loose and it's fun to root against him.

>>723993935
Just refers to enemies as “they” sometimes instead of he or she.

>>723990723
>STS is the greatest midwit filter of all time.
the entire genre is tbdesu

>>723993935
He calls Xecnar a fucking they.

>>723981791
>your definition is wrong
No, it’s not. Again, what you’re talking about in this context is called ‘Relative skill’ or a ‘Relative skill ceiling’, this is when you compare the skill of people, players, or individual skills, relative to each other, within a particular context, like an individual game, and the clue is in the name. I already told you this once and explained it to you in great detail, so at this point I can only assume you’re either retarded or lack reading comprehension. Either way, you incapable of understanding, so it’s pointless to keep trying to explain to you. If you want further information I suggest you google the term. It’s literally what you’re describing.

I doubt that you're just being a /v/ redditer

>>723954302
Changes visual, 2 characters changed a bit and 2 new characters

>>723996027
You are making up definitions in your head. Post one documented instance of someone corroborating your definition of a skill ceiling. Bonus points if it's not some random nobody on a forum.

>>723958931
You are very retarded, main skill in slay the spire is being flexible and able to balance taking short term cards you need to stay alive with building a coherent deck able to beat the endgame

>>723972890
Adrenaline, Seek, Scrawl, Offering (unless there is a key card I really need or I have sneko)

>>723968478
? you usually add 15 to 20 cards every run

>>723996378
Okay, I’ll try one last time. These are quick google results of the terms and definitions. Remembering that this is what YOU personally define a skill ceiling as,

>So as said before, the difference between the top player and the average player.
Those are your own words. Even though you have no real way of really knowing the average skill of random players, we’ll ignore that, since it’s mostly irrelevant, even though it further proves how much you’re talking out of your ass.

Here’s the definition of a skill ceiling from Google AI from just typing in ‘skill ceiling’,
>A skill ceiling is the maximum level of performance or skill that can be achieved in a specific activity, such as a video game, or in a particular task. It represents the upper limit of a player's mechanical ability, strategic depth, or technical proficiency, and a high skill ceiling is often associated with a game's longevity and replayability because it allows for continuous improvement.

And here’s the definition of relative skill in the context of video games by typing ‘relative skill video game’
>Relative skill in video games is a measure of a player's ability compared to others, often tracked using systems like the Elo rating system to rank players in competitive games such as League of Legends and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive.

And here’s the results from typing ‘ difference between relative skill and skill ceiling video games’,
>Relative skill is a player's ability compared to others, while skill ceiling is the maximum potential a game or character offers, and skill floor is the minimum skill needed to be effective. A high skill ceiling means there is a lot of room for mastery, while a high skill floor means a game is hard to start playing effectively.

As you can see, your definition, of comparing two players, is relative skill, not skill ceiling. They’re different things.

>>724001186
There is no absolute scale of skill, you have to compare to something. You keep fixating on this average player as if it means a person and not just a starting point. You are severely autistic.
Instead of obsessing over semantics, how about you try to think of a game with a high skill ceiling where the best players are not that much better than the average. Or a low skill ceiling game where they are. Do you know any games with a high skill ceiling where a casual player can beat a seasoned pro with a bit of luck?

>>723966664
>hes a literal cuck
explain

>>723987556
you need energy

>>723937059 (OP)
>99% of cards are weak as fucking shit and feel terrible to play
no

>>724003915
Skill issue

>>724004153
The game is over-balanced. Not fun

>>724002360
These aren’t semantics, they’re facts. Misunderstanding words must be your thing. I’m wondering if English is even your first language at this point, because you clearly haven’t grasped it fully. And it’s you that’s fixated on the average player, not me, your definition is literally comparing the “top players”, who I assume are gaming YouTubers or streamers, who’s sole job is to play video games for views/money, versus average players, that play for fun. Those were your terms, not mine.

You can’t measure a skill ceiling by comparing one player to another, you measure it by how far mastery can scale within the game’s systems, by using logic and common sense.

There’s also no such thing as a seasoned pro within StS. It’s a single player game, that’s why your obsession with comparing top players with average players is ridiculous even in concept. In a game like rocket league or dota, you can do this, because they have pro tournaments where you can compare stats of players competing at a high level, with stakes on the line. You can’t do that with a game like StS, all you can do is compare your own ability to some streamer you’re watching, which is irrelevant and a measurement of nothing but your own ability in relation to some random person.

To give you an analogy, it’s like you’re saying cutting an onion is difficult and has a high skill ceiling because you’ve gone to a teppanyaki restaurant and seen a chef cut an onion blindfolded or balance it on the tip of his knife and compared this to yourself and your own ability at doing such a thing. But this isn’t an evaluation of the difficulty in cutting an onion. The teppanyaki chef is paid to do these tricks, just like YouTubers are paid to invest thousands of hours and stare at a screen all day playing the same game like a drone. It doesn’t prove that a game or cutting an onion is difficult though. For most people, it’s not.

>>724004589
You can break the game with almost any card

>>724003915
>99% of cards are weak as fucking shit and feel terrible to play
But enough about Tainted Grail.

>>724002381
he and his wife are "poly"

>neow bonus apotheosis
>Nice, free win
>Even bottle it and get fusion hammer in act 2
>Ends up the hardest run I've ever not lost
I got offered zero damage. No catalyst, not a single blade dance, no discard synergy shit, I bought a copy of Bouncing Flask on floor 12 and that was the best I got the whole run. Fucking 13 turn Heart fight where Wail doesn't even make it hit for 0x15 any more eventually.
That was a neat one. I usually only beat the heart with broken decks.

>>724005184
I don't even think he's married

>>724004719
There's so much stupid in this post I don't feel like tackling every instance individually so let's just do this one

>You can’t measure a skill ceiling by comparing one player to another, you measure it by how far mastery can scale within the game’s systems, by using logic and common sense.

Please explain how you do that. How far from what? What units are we measuring in?

Also I'm still waiting for examples of games that don't fit the criteria I outlined in the previous post, otherwise my definition is de facto correct.

Spire has top-tier game design. It's especially noticeable if your compare it to other roguelikes like pic related. Darkest Dungeon has lots of really bad design, like snowballing in both directions, free healing incentivizing stalling, and punishment for not following a guide. The Spire devs specifically went out of their way to avoid these problems, which makes them unmatched in the genre.

>>724004719
If only 2 people got a 20+ a20 rotating win streak it's something objectively hard to do you retardo

>>724005620
Also almost every card can be good in specific situations and despite having archetypes the player still need to adapt every game (though this is not true with watcher)

it was pretty fun for awhile but im so awful at it i got demoralized and gave up

>>723947979
>tranny coping
lmao

Like in Darkest Dungeon, stalling is a big contention point for the fans and devs. Instead of fixing the problem at its core (that healing is free, but cannot be used outside of battle) they just placed bandaids on it by adding arbitrary punishments.

Spire solves thus by making heal cards exhaust upon use, so you can't stall with them. Other RPGs solve thus by either making spells cost mana, or automatically fully healing your party after battle. Any one of these solutions would have worked but the Darkest devs are too incompetent to see it.

>>723975908
My brother in christ, there are infinite game modes. If you're bored with classic play raid and if you're bored with raid play cursed (or blursed). About the itens, that's pretty much an inherent issue with roguelikes and honestly, you only need 1 good item to have a broken build often times, which you likely will aquire at the end of the run.

>>724005380
Ah yes, terror poison, the combo.

>>724005184
I believe you are thinking of Frost Prime. In which case, yes they are poly. And yes he is a cuck.

>>723937059 (OP)
I played it when it released for about 30 hours was fun but it started feeling repetitive, and lacked boss/enemy variety.
Has it gotten better since then?

>>724007000
The heart is the best final boss in all of roguelikes.

>>723956950
HOLY COPE LMAO!

>>724006625
ah, my bad i guess. i dont really watch ecelebs. they might as well all be cucks as far as i car

>>724005614
This is my last post to you, because I’m not your teacher. I’ve gone into great detail already. But if you’re incapable of understanding basic ideas, then it’s pointless going around in circles with you.

So you’re asking “how far from what” and “what units are we measuring in” as if skill ceiling is a literal measurement like centimetres or kilograms. It’s not, it’s a conceptual framework used in game design and competitive analysis. You measure it by evaluating how many dimensions of mastery a game allows, how much room there is for things like innovation and growth, and how long players can continue improving before hitting a plateau.

For example:
>Rocket League: mechanical skill, positioning, team coordination, adaptability, mind games, spacial awareness, etc, deep cognitive processes, all evolving with meta and competition.

>StarCraft: mechanical skill, macro/micro management, build orders, scouting, multitasking, strategic depth, mental pressure, with constant innovation at the top level. Again, deep cognitive abilities.

These games have high skill ceilings because mastery can scale across multiple axes and evolve over time. Again, not a unit, but the multidimensional space for growth.

Now, your “definition”, that skill ceiling is the difference between top and average players, is again “relative skill”, not skill ceiling.

And you’re asking for games that break your model. Here you go:
>Poker: high skill ceiling, but casuals can win with luck.
>Chess: high skill ceiling, but casuals can win with time pressure or blunders.
>Mario Kart: low skill ceiling, but casuals can beat skilled players due to rubber banding and item RNG.

Your model fails because it conflates outcome variance with skill ceiling. A game can have high variance and still allow deep mastery. A game can have low variance and still be shallow. That’s why your definition doesn’t hold and why you’re once again wrong.

>>723958931
>these are the retards I share a board with
grim shit

>>724007120
the heart is good but the bosses preceding it, when grinding a20h runs, are where cracks start to show in the game imo
time eater in particular is one of the weakest parts of the games mostly-solid design

>>723962239
this guy is legit mentally ill kek

>>724007386
Time eater does the job of stopping card spam from running over the lategame

>>724006557
The terror was actually pretty great. I had great card drawn so I could get it applied early pretty consistently and it made a huge difference killing normal enemies with my random scattering of attacks before they could cause a problem, and I 100% would not have killed the heart in time without it. I took it expecting to find a Flechettes or get a Calc Gamble and move into discard+Eviscerate or something since I wasn't finding any poison but even with just basic strikes and shit it was easily worth including mid game and nowhere near the worst card even after removing most of my attacks.

>>724007315
You are again operating on your (wrong) definition of a skill ceiling. I don't know where you're getting this idea that to have a high skill ceiling, a game has to incorporate multiple systems and mechanics. You even accidentally quote the more or less correct definition "how much room there is for things like innovation and growth, and how long players can continue improving before hitting a plateau".
Take Open Hexagon (you're allowed to not know that, look up some high level gameplay on youtube). It literally only tests one thing, and the skill ceiling is incredibly high. It's actually beyond human physical ability.
For Spire it's still unknown because people are still improving.

Also looking at >>724001186 again, none of the explanations you quoted support your headcanon in any way.

>>723967614
cirnos frozen throne art is my favorite.

jorbs asshole status: raped

>>723937884
>Thinks being 20 is old for 4chinz
Try again bozo

>>724009043
I’m not addressing anything else you say, you’re clearly stuck in a loop of denial and deflection, constantly shifting goalposts and misrepresenting my points. I’ve already proven, with sourced definitions and examples, that your definition of skill ceiling is completely incorrect and wrong. Just like you asked for. If you refuse to accept that, then you’re either willfully ignorant, just not interested in honest discussion, or mentally retarded.

If you genuinely believe Slay the Spire has an extremely high skill ceiling, that’s fine. I don’t, and nothing you’ve said has convinced me otherwise. In fact, you’ve failed to explain even once why you think it’s “extremely high”. I’ve explained my side though, multiple times. I’m not doing it again.

>>724010468
Concession accepted.

>>724010468
Not him but you're essentially arguing that people are simply lucking their a20 streaks despite this not making any sense since people with bigger streaks also have higher win% averages

>>723990723
i just dont understand why people can't just having fun simply playing the game, who cares if you lose the run. that doesn't mean the entire game is fucking against you.

>>724009976
Why what happened

Is everyone streaming sts a fag or what

>>724010762
No, that’s not what I said at all. That’s either more deflection or a failure to read properly. I’ve never claimed Slay the Spire is purely luck-based or requires no skill whatsoever. What I’ve said is that calling it an “extremely high skill ceiling” game, like the other anon insists, is a massive stretch. There’s a huge difference between saying a game has some skill and saying it has an extreme level of it. If you’re interpreting my skepticism as “the game takes no skill” then you’re projecting your own assumptions, not quoting mine.

>>724011685
>I’ve said is that calling it an “extremely high skill ceiling” game, like the other anon insists, is a massive stretch.
Then why people with thousands of hours can't routinely pull off 20+ a20 streaks?

>>723937059 (OP)
*roguelite

>>724011782
Because people like that other Anon exist, and they’re mentally impaired. If you’ve investing thousands of hours into the game, and you can’t routinely beat A20, then the issue is you. Smart people I imagine, have better things to do.

>>724011782
Leave him alone, he doesn't know what skill ceiling is, or resides in a world where it means something else.

>>724011685
Can you go on a 50 winstreak with watcher on a20?
Do you have a 60-80% winrate on a20 including heart?
Yes the game has an extremely high skill ceiling with a very broad decision pool during each game.
Play for yourself and post your credentials after 100+ games on a20.
Talk is cheap.

>>724011141
just jorbs

>>724012136
Show us your a20 win rate and a20 20+ streak then

I haven't reached the final boss in ascension 20 with the ironclad for like 3 weeks now.
What the fuck do I do?

>>724012492
Take more early game decisions to survive greedier act 1 paths. Or wait for the death branch corruption run

>>724012730
I do that, breeze through act 1 only to die to the mango or the birds.

>>723973394
I enjoyed the story in CA so much I ended up playing DanganAnother too. Liked them quite a bit too even if a bunch of shit was recycled between DRA2 and CA. Having shit taste pays off.
Apparently at some point when they hired linuj they almost converted CA into a killing game? funny shit

>>724012861
Act 2 is all about frontload + some decent block. Take 1 aoe plus at least 1-2 decent block options. Also being on 3 energy as act 2 ironclad can immediately end your run depending on your deck

>>724013384
Is sozu worth it?

>>723937646
Co-op. It works well in the board game.

>>724013560
Speaking of coop. Anyone ever played the coop mod?

>>724013384
Only if you have 2 endgame potions (for example fairy+duplication/memory) otherwise you're losing too much value

>>723937059 (OP)
I've played a lot of clones. Vault of the Void is the best roguelike deck builder.

>>723937059 (OP)
Such an ugly game.

>>724013693
>>724013442
Also you need to be able to kill the elites on act 2 without potions

>>723971151
anon, this is what we get for allowing thirdies on the internet. all classifications get shit up because they aren't autistic enough for it. idk if you look at porn (yeah i know) but that was where it was first noticeable. all of a sudden every hair type is a 'blonde'. anal doesn't actually mean anal in the ass. and now troon shit is everywhere, even though i can go to most sites and select the "i only want to see straight shit" option i am lambasted with "fempenis" or "boipussi" shit because these thirdies are the worst type of normies there are.

>>723937059 (OP)
I dunno about best at anything at all but it's not bad.

>>723937373
I like Ruina more as a deckbuilder.

>>723950430
Why do you find this difficult to believe?

>>723953432
>played slay the spire in 2017
>didn't come to /v/ until 2018
nigger nigger nigger

>>723968159
It really only has the aesthetics of an RPG.
In practise. Giving a character a level up point, just gives you an opportunity to gain another of their cards or to upgrade one of their cards. Or you can level up the non-party character which is just the equivalent of being able to claim additional card energy, or some card of a special card pool focused around draw/search cards.

Basically. If there was a number next to your number that went up by one every time you attained new cards or upgraded the ones you had. Would you call Slay the Spire an RPG?

I started the spire because of sodapoppin playing it.

Why is it that StS and other deckbuilder threads get shat up endlessly whereas the same doesn't happen for other popular roguelite-adjacent games like Isaac or FTL?

>>724016852
FTL does get shit on.
And the reason is that shitters on /v/ are bad at video games and cannot cope with it.
BoI is the easier of these 3 so it doesn't get as much hate

>>724015912
>admitting to being a meganewfaggot
>in 2011+14
ISHYGDT

>>724013702
Based upon based

>>724013702
>>724019234
That's too much card game in my roguelite

I'm trying out deckbuilders. This is Starless Abyss. It has a cool setting but I'm kinda bored. I'll try Heretic's Fork next. And maybe Monster Train 1.

>>724020379
Or there's actually an update to Monster Train 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMvFYeBcjM
It looks a lot like Slay the Spire

>>723937059 (OP)
I never fully made sense of the Watcher or Defect

>>723937373
it's the most tightly designed deckbuilder but not the best. it's too simple compared to something like monster train 2

Has anyone played Star Vaders? I played the Demo and I liked it but it was only a short amount. It did seem to have a bit of depth to it.
Reviews seem good but if it's only fun for like 12h I'll probably won't bother.

>>724021737
I didn't get around to playing the demo on Steam Next Fest, sorry fren

>>724021737
>>724022652
I've completed apocalypse difficulty + secret boss on 3 characters, working on the rest. Highly, highly recommend if you like deckbuilders. I've got over 24 hours of playtime and I'm still having fun; it's easily one of the best deckbuilders I've ever played. It's very well balanced; just easy enough to sink your teeth into, but once you get into it and start unlocking cards and characters you can see the full complexity of the game, and it becomes much more difficult to master. Then when you've unlocked everything and you know the ins and outs of your character and deck, you feel unstoppable as you can turn even badly constructed decks into powerhouse builds, just by picking the right few cards, upgrades and artifacts. The next steam sale is in a month, pick it up on sale you won't be disappointed if you're a fellow deckbuildercel like me.

>>723937059 (OP)
It's not a roguelike, and it's many balance issues prevent it from being a truly great game. The game has tons of tedious encounters and unfair and badly designed mechanics that prevent it from being truly great. It's just fun if you are autistic, and that's it.

>>723937059 (OP)
I would sell my soul to enjoy this game like every single retard on this Earth but I can't. Turn-based and cards make me wanna poke tiny holes into my eyeballs and peel off my eyelids.

It just pains me so fucking much to pretend that visual representation of irl cardboard cards into a fucking video game; which can make literally any of your fantasy something palpable. But it's reduced to stupid ass nigger cards that make particles when you select them and play them on the digital board game.

>>724023000
It only took you 24h to beat what I assume is the hardest difficulty on 3 characters?
Sounds a bit low though not really a dealbreaker.

>>724019234
Vault of the void is the only sp card game I've seen that puts effort into the presentation on par with mp tcgs.
Like the unlockable card backs, and active idle animations are near hearthstone quality and its made by one dude.
It shows how little blizzard has to do in the hearthstone art department for normies to eat it up.

>>724012492
Admit you are a brainlet and greed roll runs into oblivion until rng shits you out a fool proof win con.

>>724023390
Yup, just about. I mean I'm not saying I'm a God at deckbuilders, but I do play a good amount of them so I know generally how they play; it's a genre I'm familiar with. Maybe your milage might vary depending on how good or bad you are at deckbuilders. That being said, starvaders doesn't have 20 ascension levels like slay the spire, there's only 3 difficulty levels, then the optional secret boss. So it doesn't take nearly as long to 100% complete compared to something like StS if longevity is your thing. But for me, I think a gme has good value if I'm still hooked after $1 of enjoyment per hour played. Since the game costs $25 and I'm still playing 24 hours in, then in my book it's exceeded my expectations in terms of value for money. If you're expecting more value for your cash, then I respect that and would still argue its a good game, maybe try it out when it's on sale then.

>>724016852
because the concept of probabilistic risk assessment goes over the head of most people
it's kinda the same reason why xcom and darkest dungeon are shat on all the same : they feel unfair because people genuinely think there was nothing they could have done to prevent a specific outcome
BoI also has a bunch of more obvious outs since you can reliably fish for specific items starting from the first floor

>>724024007
Mh, I see, thanks for your insights.
I don't think I'm looking for a specific dollar per hour value but there's just something more satisfying if a game, roguelites in particular, lends itself to being fun for dozens of hours. I'd rather play 1 roguelite for 300h than a variety of while fun 20 hour ones. Something like that, I suppose.

>>723964380
Based Slice & Dice enjoyer. Nothing beats the feeling of beating Nightmare with your hero and his 4 cats.

>roguelike
bait thread

>>723956545
>a graphic adventure from the 90's
>roguelike