Thread 724783719

video game "serious criticism" is so funny because they're ALL basically just levers for sedated rats to pull on

>ludonarrative dissonance
my man you are reviewing the decals on an elaborate pinball machine

Suck my dick, OP

>there are black holes
>THERE ARE BLACK PEOPLE

>>724783719 (OP)
>go to work
>press button
>receive reward

>>724783719 (OP)
>doesn't appreciate the nuances of different pinball tables and lumps them all together
NGMI

>>724783864
shhh those who push the button the least make the most treats

Using words like "ludo narrative" make you seem like a pseud

Captcha: JWANKS

>>724783719 (OP)
Games can be both entertainment and art.

wrong

>>724784105
games aren't just "entertainment" though, they are explicitly built to hack the dopamine circuits in your brain
taking a fuckton of oxycodone will not magically turn into "art" if the box comes with a nice story giving you a narrative motivation for popping those pills
anyone who says video games are "serious art" is really just telling on himself and showing he's never read a book or even watched a difficult movie or engaged with a complex album

>>724783719 (OP)
there are people who genuinely beleive that
most of them are some shade of brown

Why is it considered cringe to sincerely enjoy your hobbies and take them seriously?

>>724783719 (OP)
>levers for sedated rats to pull on
but enough about the average corporate job.

>>724784370
that's a ridiculous deconstruction. not everything is casino slots or gacha
hacking your brain to fire the same dopamine circuits as drugs do without drugs at all is literally life saving technology.
>oh but putting chemicals in your body is bad
stop eating then
stop drinking
stop polluting the environment with the consequences of the industrial revolution.
these programs are the product of humans painting worlds across virtual canvasses and even when they are really bad, or even have no story at all, they are still art. it's not about just evoking a one-dimensional response to a still painting or a two-dimensional relationship with a movie, but having a three-dimensional experience that you can almost live in, built with computer programming and digital art.
even the shittiest worst dumb fuck meme game is still art and it merely glorifies the presence of games better than it.

Yes I agree. I used to watch a lot of game criticism shit on youtube when i was younger but in hindsight its all just pathetic pseudointellectual overanalytic tardslop.
Video games are not that deep and "critics" are gay faggots that dont even understand how games are made anyway.

>>724784370
>books and movies and music can be art but, magically, a medium that makes these things interactive cannot

>>724785434
>its all just pathetic pseudointellectual overanalytic tardslop.
this is mostly a function of their IQ
OG game designers were all essentially systems-scientists in outlook and IQ.

>>724785237
what the fuck are even ranting about you unhinged schizo

>>724785487
Yes, because books and movies and music are not games. Baseball and NASCAR are games, not art. Texas Hold 'Em is a game, it is not art. Games are games. Games are not art, because games are games.

>>724785509
Yes i can agree to that definitely. I still have a lot of respect for real game developers, in particular those that build their own engines.

>>724783719 (OP)
>>724784370

>sophisticated words!

>>724785487
Piano music is art. A piano player is an artist. The literal piano itself is not art.

>>724785434
>Video games are not that deep and "critics" are gay faggots that dont even understand how games are made anyway.
The critics are faggots and a lot of the developers are too, but that doesn't mean the medium can't be deep.

>>724785604
couldnt have said it better myself

>>724783719 (OP)
Deconstructing is not intelligent or witty. Fuck off.

>>724785604
Video games straddle the realms of art and games. Even if you're shortsighted enough to try and limit them to a very narrow category, they are more than one thing.
>>724785680
The games are akin to the music in your analogy.

>>724785680
No one is arguing that consoles are art.

>>724785680
>The literal piano itself is not art.
Many people would disagree there

>>724785604
How are books, movies and music art exactly? Just ridiculous historical illiteracy. Many of the things you consider art were considered an infantile pastime at their inception.

Been battling with that myself, I enjoy games and am learning to make games. The first is a non-productive hobby, the latter is productive/creative. I really like playing games, but I'm afraid it's just an escape for me and it also ends up ruining game dev if I stop playing

>>724785706
Gameplay mechanics aren't deep or artistic. As much as I prefer gameplay focused games, i dont delude myself into thinking it isnt just a spectrum of "watch numbers go up". At one end of the spectrum is gachashit and at the other is zachtronics games

I understand railing against the kind of faggots who try to turn games and games criticism into pretentious, masturbatory garbage, but games themselves are/can be art. It's just that the "conversation" is led by self-important faggots who don't understand games and look down on them for being fun

>>724783719 (OP)
I only play linear movie games though. You know stuff like the resident evil remakes. I dont play online shit or meme streamer shit like vampire survivors or whatever.

>>724783719 (OP)
I want to be a rat

>>724786018
>Gameplay mechanics aren't deep or artistic.
They're usually not, but they can be used in that way.

>>724783719 (OP)
Games with holistic focused design. Sandbox "make your own fun" crap is not art.

>>724785680
>A game developer is an artist. The literal game engine itself is not art.
Glad we agree

>>724786070
get circumcised

>>724786018
What is deep and artistic?

I'm making a subversive RPG where you play as the Rat instead of killing the Rats. Thoughts? What other party members should I have who are unfairly treated as enemies in other RPGs?

>>724786194
Nothing. But I just think its especially pathetic for people to claim gameplay mechanics. Nigger you just pressin buttons, watchin numbers get bigger and seeing flashing colors, stop coping you aint smart lol

>ludonarrative dissonance
>gamefeel
>gameplay loop
how to spot a pseud

>>724786384
>stop coping you aint smart lol
So all this "games can't be art" stuff is really nothing more than "I'm worried this guy thinks he's better than me"

>>724786447
The only thing remotely "real" here is "gamefeel"
But really they're talking about graphic-audio-haptic feedback.

>>724783719 (OP)
>they're ALL basically just levers for sedated rats to pull on
Kind of like... society under capitalism
Makes you think don't it

>>724786384
I mean, there are games that feel like shit to play, games that feel pretty good to play, and games that feel amazing to play. A lot of thought and design goes into making games feel great to play. It's not easy, you can't just do it. If it's not art, then it's at the very least technique, and at that point you're just being semantic. The point is, it's impressive and worth praise

>>724785124
It depends on your hobby. Nobody thinks its cringe when musicians enjoy their hobby but video games are considered entertainment for kids and adolescents so so if you obsess over them as an adult you get labeled a manchild

>>724786623
"Feels good" is a meaningless phrase

>>724786623
A lot of thought and desigm goes into selling soft drink too.

>>724786591
>The only thing remotely "real" here is "gamefeel"
How does that mean anything
The others have real definitions

>>724786691
What an absurd fucking thing to say. If "feels good" is a meaningless phrase, then everything is meaningless. What other relevant metric could there possibly be?

>>724783719 (OP)
>push wooden lever called """spear""" into animal
>animal dies
>use mouth lever to chew on animal meat
>you, man from future appear
>"heh. survival is so funny because it's basically just levers for sedated rats to pull on"
>push wooden very ludonarratively dissonancely lever into (you)
>"my... man... you are eating... the decals... on an alaborate... pinball... ma-ACK"

>>724786682
It's because the sort of people who obsess over them also tend to be the sort of people to disdain "art", or their concept if it, and thenselves insist on treating their obsession as the most superficial time wasters.

>>724786764
“Game loop” is fucking redundant
You can’t explain why a loop is better or worse. It’s a loop. Fucking everything in reality is a loop of some sort.
Let me ask you, do you think when designing “The Silent Cartographer” in Halo CE (2001) they ever thought of the phrase “gameplay loop”?
I admit, ludonarrative dissonance can be annoying, but a game is the gameplay
You don’t notice games with good gameplay having this ludo dissonance… because the gameplay is good.

>>724786795
It's meaningless because it's entirely subjective and contains zero substantive analysis. It's like if you're discussing food and the only descriptor you have is "yummy".

People need to get past the fact that we don't live in the 20th century anymore and art isn't just paintings, sculpture and photo anymore. Yes, shitty mobas are not art, but games can indeed be art, even if most aren't.

>>724787029
>“Game loop” is fucking redundant
It's not; even if all games have loops, that does not make everything you do into a loop.
>do you think when designing “The Silent Cartographer” in Halo CE (2001) they ever thought of the phrase “gameplay loop”?
I've no way of evaluating this statement.
>You don’t notice games with good gameplay having this ludo dissonance…
I do. It requires some thought.

>>724787070
I understanding being frustrated by vague platitudes, but that's just the practical reality. If you serve a normie a cheap shitty dish, they're gonna tell you it's shit. If you serve a normie a 5-star meal, they're gonna tell you it's great. They may not be able to articulate exactly why, since taste is so subjective, but the reality of good vs. bad is there. Can you tell me why you like your favorite song? No, you can't. You like it because it sounds good to you. That doesn't mean music isn't art
>inb4 "but I can tell you about muh production and muh music theory"
No you fucking can't lmao

>>724787070
NTA but I interpret that description as a game having responsive controls while also providing satisfying feedback for your action, like shotguns having meaty, powerful sound design or something as simple as the damage font for critical hits being slightly bigger combined with some subtle screen shake or bonus gore effect. You can't always put your finger on it but when it's there it just feels good to play and when it isn't there then it doesn't feel good to play. Going from a game with responsive controls to a game without responsive controls is a jarring experience.

>>724785512
shut the fuck up glowie

>>724783719 (OP)
>my man

>>724785487
The museum as a concept is not art. The building itself may be, and the items in it are art, but the concept of a museum itself is not art. Same with videogames.

>>724784370
>games aren't just "entertainment" though, they are explicitly built to hack the dopamine circuits in your brain
Not the games that I'm playing. Maybe the theme park MMO and gacha slop literal cretins like you consume every day.
But is you racing a car an experience built to hack your brain?
Is you playing a game of chess an experience built to hack your brain?
Is you learning and playing an instrument an experience built to hack your brain?
>b-b-but this mobile gam-
Nobody who enjoys actual video games sees those things as video games. It's just low IQ retards like (you) who believe that.

i think people get really offended by the "video games aren't art" stuff because they take it as a personal insult, like it's a direct attack on them and the way they spend their time, implying they're in some way "stupid" for doing it
maybe they still do that stupid thing of self-identifying as "gamers" in which case it strikes at a core part of their identity
inversely pretending video games are a new form of "art" gives their hobby a sort of respectability that even in 2025 it seems to lack

but come on
COME the fuck ON
as if any of you faggots are actually "engaging" with the games you're playing
maybe SOMETIMES some of you do, but really, even the most snooty of itch.io pseuds is still just trying to get a something out of the same childhood toys he's been playing with his entire life
no, you just do it for escapism, or as an addictive habit
(and i do it too!!)
even games that involve thinking (like strategy or puzzle or whatever) are still just little exercises for your mind, not expressions of the human condition or whatever

acknowledging these are all just varying degrees of "rat pushing on lever" isn't an attack on you or even on video games, it's something we ALL do and it'd be better if we all acknowledge it
as far as these things go, video games are just another addictive agent in a world full of them. a lot of you probably hate fat people or think gamblers are degenerates or want to mass execute all homeless druggies, but these people and everyone else are just like you. we're all using balms to soothe the pains of loneliness or failure or whatever.
video games are just another trap. admitting you're addicted is the first step to developing a better relation with this activity.

>>724788194
>I am DIFFERENT
and this is why you'll never be happy

>>724785628
Imagine outing yourself as a subhuman like this. Highschool tier vocabulary is now "sophisticated words" for the average subhuman brown hellspawn dwelling on /v/. Grim.

>>724788316
The irony is that you are the pseud who unironically believes he rises above the retards by talking down to them, while every single thinking man laughs at you from above for the sperg that you are.

chores
gambling
politics
gaming in the obama years was better

>music
"Oh, that's art."
>visual art
"Of course that's art."
>Writing
"Yeah that's art."
>Acting
"That's art."
>music + visual art + writing + acting
"Um, no, that's obviously not art. Grow up, manchild."

>>724788301
>I consume slop, therefor I am happy!
Keep telling that to yourself, ratboy. After all, ignorance is bliss.

>>724788442
>>724788316
what if none of us is better than anyone else
like, we're all here on /v/
that's already a baseline loser status
we're all just sitting in different compartments of the same boat

>>724783719 (OP)
ludo...narra...huh?
>*queefs on your mom*
>*slaps your dog's ass*
Haw haw haw!
Later nerd

>>724783719 (OP)
blame blizzard for turning games into skinner boxes

>>724788187
Museums exist to display art and objects. Games specifically tie them together in pursuit of a cohesive creative work.

>>724787396
>Can you tell me why you like your favorite song? No, you can't.
Yes I can - and I don't have to resort to music theory. Music theory isn't too much help here, in fact. It can tell us why something is dissonant or why certain chords work well after each other. Sure, it can give us some handholds, like "minor key sounds sad" or "suspended chords create tension" but it when it comes to a specific song, it has limited descriptive power.

I could tell you why I like, for example, Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. The simple guitar chords make it feel intimate, personal, especially in the context of the full album. It has nice, evocative imagery, like "two lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year". The theme of missing someone is relatable. It feels wistful.

You should be able to say why you like things even if you lack the theoretical or practical knowledge to explain how an effect is achieved. You have to be able to give me more than "good" or "bad".

>>724788205
>i think people get really offended by the "video games aren't art" stuff because they take it as a personal insult, like it's a direct attack on them and the way they spend their time, implying they're in some way "stupid" for doing it
No, I'm not offended by it and have no reason to be. It's just wrong.

Video games can never be rat.

>>724788679
Right so the next response >>724787615 was actually a good example lol

>>724788560
>p-please accept those cancerous low IQ retards who constantly spout irrelevant drivel like "all video games hack your brain!"
what if retards would stop pretending they know everything about video games from having playing 2 mobile gacha games and 2 mmos and just kill themselves?

>>724788442
>you are a pseud!! A PSEUD!!!
Anything else, retard? I don't claim that I am the smartest being on earth, but I did correctly identify that you are a subhuman who gets upset at even the most midwit tier displays of intelligence.

>>724786682
Musicians are making you are consuming
>obsessed with filming things
Vs
>obsessed with watching tv

>>724788187
Painting is a medium. Video games is a medium. Neither of them are buildings.

>>724788767
>I ignore every post that argues in good will ITT
>Then I proceed to find someone who just calls me retard and pretend I am smarter than him
>Oh no, is someone calling me a pseud? THE GALL!
>doesn't he know how INTELLIGENT I am?
kill yourself, pseud

>>724788779
>musicians never listen to music
>people who play video games are never creative
interesting arguments, go any more like these?

>>724788623
>Games specifically tie them together in pursuit of a cohesive creative work.
No they don't. Any game that attempts to do so gets shut down as having "objectively inferior design", OG Resident Evil games are case in point. Gamers have well and truly established that they do not need actually interesting, coherent experiences long ago. They just want that escapist release. Which is never going to be a prerequisite for art.

>>724788679
>I could tell you why I like, for example, Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. The simple guitar chords make it feel intimate, personal, especially in the context of the full album. It has nice, evocative imagery, like "two lost souls swimming in a fishbowl, year after year". The theme of missing someone is relatable. It feels wistful.
Okay, so vague, extremely subjective normie platitudes.That's acceptable. But then I say "Doom 2016 has uniquely satisfying and responsive gunplay, movement, and controls that makes for an intense, thrilling experience you can't find in many other games", and all of a sudden I'm a "pseud" or I'm saying "meaningless" nonsense. Surely you're beginning to realize how retarded you sound now

>>724783719 (OP)
All human behavior is ultimately a means for the pursuit of animal satisfaction. How can you ever hope to objectively judge a system when you exist, and have always existed, inside of it? We are more kin to the humble rat than we are not. The real difference is that the rat lacks our pretensions.

>>724788920
>>I ignore every post that argues in good will ITT
This is really rich of you to claim considering you have quite literally attempted to shut down discussion before you simply because they used language you're incapable of grasping, and then tried to project your own mental deficiency on others.
>>724785628

>>724788864
I wonder if it's the same guy who tried to compare them to a piano

>>724789137
that wasn't even me. I just find it ironic that you could choose all these posts to engage with for serious discussion, but you were naturally drawn to the post with the picture of a literal retard. like it spoke directly to your soul, pseud.

>>724789045
What about the original Resident Evil games isn't cohesive, interesting or coherent?
>projection
That's your problem.

>>724789046
>then I say "Doom 2016 has uniquely satisfying and responsive gunplay, movement, and controls that makes for an intense, thrilling experienc
Actually what you said was "it feels good, I like it because of the good feeling I had playing it, which was good"

>>724788679
>>724789046
both of those "reviews" or descriptions are completely meaningless to me if I haven't experienced what you described myself.

>>724789292
Says a lot about how low your intellectual capacity is, when you somehow get the absolute inverse of the meaning in written text. I was arguing the contrary, that RE does have narrative and gameplay coherency, but retards like you got mad about it because they couldn't grasp it. So the games industry got your message, and they stopped attempting that. Gamers do not want intricate, deep, coherent design. You can't have games be art when your audience is made up of subhumans.

>>724789278
>that wasn't even me.
Of course. Which is why you so vehemently defend that post and immediately rushed to reply to me.

>>724789479
Yes, if you've never felt wistful in your life it's wasted on you

>>724789551
and like the pseud that you are, you simply dismiss everything I just posted, like my previous posts, delivering further proof of your low intellect.
if you were smart in any way, you would have done a million different things than just getting your panties in a twist over and over again for getting found out that you are, in fact, a pathetic little pseud.

>>724789301
>What's your favorite song?
>Wish You Were Here.
>Why?
>Because the guitar chords are intimate and the lyrics have evocative imagery.
>Okay but what makes the chords intimate and the lyrics evocative?
>...Uhhh...
You can come up with whatever surface-level Anthony Fantano bullshit you want. At the end of the day, you're just saying "it's good because I like it and I like it because it's good" with extra words. You will never be able to meaningfully articulate your tastes, and that's okay. Btw Shine On You Crazy Diamond Parts I-V is obviously the stand-out track on that album, contrarian

>>724789671
I think my post went over your head, which is strange, because it was so very simple.

>>724783719 (OP)
why are you here

>>724789729
>...Uhhh...
Yes, I could have kept going but I didn't want to belabour the point. I already pointed out that the post below yours gave a great example of evaluating a game properly without requiring any understanding of the technical side of things and also without getting bogged down in utter subjectivity: >>724787615
This goes far beyond "nice gamefeel" which seems like it could mean anything and nothing. I don't know why you seem to think this is completely impossible.

>>724789501
The original RE games are great though.
But even if gamers act like faggots, and even if a lot of modern developers are faggots, that doesn't mean that your museum analogy applies.

>>724789790
i haven't been to 4chan in like 3 years lol

>>724790032
>I already pointed out that the post below yours gave a great example of evaluating a game properly without requiring any understanding of the technical side of things and also without getting bogged down in utter subjectivity
Wait so if you already admitted that you're wrong, what the fuck is the premise of the argument then? Stupid fuck.

>>724790575
>if you already admitted that you're wrong
Where did I do that? I fucking said, say anything more than fucking "gamefeel" and you acted like I asked the impossible of you when someone had literally already just done it.

>>724790841
>Gameplay can't be deep. You're just pressing buttons.
>Games can feel good to play though, there's clearly some sort of technique or craft that goes into that.
>No there isn't.
>*someone else explains there is*
>Oh, okay then, fair enough... *continues trying to argue that there isn't craftsmanship behind gameplay and it's all 100% meaningless subjective platitudes*
Very cool

>>724791179
Bitch you're the one who argued that you can't be expected to have an opinion on anything beyond platitudes *unless* you're aware of the craftsmanship underpinning it. My point here is, no, you don't, you're just lazy. You can say why something appeals to you without necessarily being able to explain how the developers accomplished it. Have a real opinion.

>>724783719 (OP)
perhaps the same could be said of all media.

>>724791716
But you're using the fact that some people can't articulate the reasons for their tastes as evidence that not only is their opinion meaningless, but an entire medium is meaningless

>>724783719 (OP)
If I were the rat in that picture I would push on the lever that dispenses food so that I could get food to eat.

>>724791946
You seem to have hallucinated an entire conversation that didn't take place

>>724786682
>Nobody thinks its cringe when musicians enjoy their hobby
Delusional guitarfag is delusional as usual.

>>724792345
There's goalpost moving and then there's "nuh uh, I never even had a disagreement with you, schizo, we were both on the same page all along" gaslighting

>>724786125
A blank canvas and a brush is art, goysoomer.

>>724783719 (OP)
Games can be a source of intellectual stimulation. Every remotely intelligent animal engages in some form of play and not because it rewards food. Anyone who uses the term "ludonarrative dissonance" is not playing games for this reason, however. You can split people who play video games into 3 categories
>Competitors
Cognitive growth and accomplishment, "gamers" are here
>Explorers
Arbitrarily picking up shiny rocks, most retards and losers fall here
>Socialisers
Looking for a new e-bf, here we find sex criminals and single moms

>>724792661
We're still not on the same page but you insist on missing my actual point in favour of whatever you felt like arguing against instead. And you still appear to be a moron with a stunted vocabulary who can't express a complex thought to save his life.

>>724793045
And then there's /v/, where we find the retarded loser sex pest gamers

>>724793195
Explain how Wish You Were Here's guitar chords feel "intimate".

>>724793291
Where are the gamers?

>>724788779
It isn't about consuming vs producing, video games are just a low status hobby.
>i play in one of the largest rock bands of all time
cool
>i'm part of the team that's developing the most popular minecraft mod of all time
loser alert

>>724786070
ogey

>>724793861
>>i play in one of the largest rock bands of all time
Rock bands don't exist anymore, outside of legacy acts

>>724793045
the games don't come from nowhere, they're not just rocks. people made them.

>>724784129
>truck's front end lifts up twice after the jump like he's popping off

>>724791954
Ok but explain to me objectively why food is good

>>724783719 (OP)
>play game for fun
>"NOOOOOO DESPITE ALL MY RAGE I'M STILL JUST A RAT IN A CAGE!!!!!!"
shut the fuck up and blow me down

>>724788205
>pushing a button is literally the same thing as designing your own sprawling cities and infrastructure
You are very intelligent

>hoeflation occurs
>suddenly every thot with a twitter account has an opinion that matters