Thread 725058031

According to Matthewmatosis this is the best JRPG ever made. Is that true? What makes it the best? How does it compare to Final Fantasy VII, Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest XI and the other greats of the genre?

FF7 and Chrono Trigger are ass. SMT3 is pretty good but I still think 4 duology and SJ are better. Maybe VV but I need to let the dust settle for a year or two first. This game works better with the modded difficulty.

>>725058031 (OP)
It's insanely overrated, 4 has a much stronger plot and 5 has better gameplay. 3 has a lot of broken/useless shit

>>725058031 (OP)
this Matthewmatosis guy sounds like someone with good taste

>>725059069
He's the greatest videogame critic of our generation.

>>725058031 (OP)
nah, dark souls is better

>>725058031 (OP)
>according to literal who
It's like you faggots go out of your way to NOT play video games

>>725058031 (OP)
I don't think it's even the best game in its own series.

>>725058031 (OP)
ever? probably not.
but it was the last JRPG i got addicted to. i didn't care if it took 40 minutes, i would back in and out of fusion until i had the EXACT skills i wanted. my team at the end were fucking unkillable GODS.
then Persona 3 came out and i would only back in and out until i had 1 or 2 skills i wanted.
then Persona 4 came out and i would take literally whatever was given.

>>725058031 (OP)
Megaten is a case of "even the worst X game is a decent game". Every smt is pretty good. Atmosphere, gameplay, "monster" catching imbued, it's unique, a sense of challenge. It's a fair opinion even if the other titles are decent (CT is good, DQ can get bland and FF can get novella, but those specific titles weren't necessarily too bad yet). You understand if you play.

>>725058031 (OP)
It's one of my favorite games but I would never recommend it to a normalfag casual under any circumstance.

>>725059780
>Every smt is pretty good
except If

>>725059516
Sorry, buddy, but matt is /v/ approved

>>725058031 (OP)
It's the 4th best SMT.

>>725060037
name the top 3

>>725058031 (OP)
smt3 is a great experience if you want satanic pokemon
chrono trigger is still better
skies of arcadia is amazing
dragon quest 8's production values are insane

>>725058031 (OP)
it's the best ive played unless you prefer blobber style like etrian odyssey but that's arguably wrpg style

>>725058031 (OP)
Disclaimer: I've only played Nocturne and Persona 3 & 4 in the SMT franchise. Going to begin Strange Journey soon.

I believe Nocturne was able to carry out every aspect of a JRPG effectively. The music, environment, creature designs, wandering bosses, and character interactions all make you feel like you are truly witnessing the pre-rebirth (death) of the world. The combat is decent, and Dante is a fantastic inclusion.

My main criticisms are:
>best ending is swapped for the worst ending if you mess up one of two dialogue choices
>dungeons are bland (you spend a lot of time in these)
>encounter rate is too high and always on

>>725059010
>4 has a much stronger plot
I love 4 but it has possibly the worst mainline plot aside from the first twist.

>>725059780
SMT2 is pretty fucking awful. Nearly impossible to recruit demons, they do shit damage and die easily and drain a resource you will run out of. It's also easy enough to not use the demons. Same problem of confusing as fuck world layout everything but SJ has. Unless it has a save point you can't tell what the name of an area is which makes directions even more confusing. Map doesn't mark the save points or other vitally important things, it only marks healing and demon combination rooms.

>>725060597
Shave your neck

>>725060079
SJ, 4, 4a.

>>725059010
The plot of 4 is all over the place. The pacing of 4 also brings down the jumbled mess that is 4's plot. I genuinely don't understand the fanbase of 4. There are so many plot holes and wasted characters. And to be honest 4 was the start of SMT turning into Persona lite.

>>725058031 (OP)
>Anything SMT
>masterpiece
SMT is one of the normalfaggiest JRPG series in existence. Try Romancing Saga 2 or Baten Kaitos instead.

>>725059010
>5 has better gameplay
5 is a shit, fuck dampeners

>>725061083
People don't play games for plot. Plot is what killed jrpgs. Persona is literally SMT but ruined by pointless plot garbage.

>>725061204
>Recommends a generic as fuck jrpg and a shitty card jrpg that people only remember for it's twist
Never recommend a game again.

>>725061261
and that's why nocturne is better

>>725058031 (OP)
I really liked it. I just played it last year, and it's probably my favorite JRPG. It was very nostalgic despite it being a first play-through. Some of the visuals are fantastic.

>>725060597
>Dante

Huh I only remember seeing him once from the tower fight then literally disappearing forever I thought he would be huge in the plot but nope?

Was it because I choose the neutral ending?

>>725061261
>People don't play games for plot
If this were true, Sony games wouldn't be so successful.

>>725061418
he only appears again in the way to the true ending, in amala labyrinth

>>725061247
...don't use them?

>>725060938
I do, but it bleeds a little. What is a good shaving cream?
>>725061418
You need to get to nearly the bottom of the Labyrinth of Amala, then you can recruit Dante by paying his fine (1 orb if you guess heads on his coin flip, 1000000 if you guess tails; DMC2 reference). If you go back up you can continue the game as normal, but continuing below locks you into the Lucifer ending.

Raidou > Dante

>>725061261
I know. That's why I prefer SMT over Persona. Less talking and faggy school shit and more gameplay and atmosphere. 3, 2, 1 and SJ are the best in the series at doing so.

>>725058031 (OP)
>according to-
Form your own opinions nigger

>>725060876
I should've added a disclaimer that the first titles are hard for me to judge, since they are NES games, so who knows if they qualify as "good for its time" I don't know. then SH is an in-between step from 1-2 and SJ.

This thread is normie central jesus fucking christ

>>725061375
>Some of the visuals are fantastic.
there's some striking cinematography in it for sure
pic related and the characters explaining their reasons with the white and red (chiaki in the classroom, isamu at a crossing, etc) come to mind

>>725058031 (OP)
it would be better if it had reverse fusion. I cannot be arsed to look up some gay table online to see what bs i can make

>>725062113
Yeah, that's some good ass shit.

>>725061321
>Romancing SaGa 2
>generic as fuck jrpg
Retard.

>>725058031 (OP)
Based, but smt IV and strange journey are both better than that

>>725062014
actual normies would be wanking Persona lmao. Or worse, pretending to "criticize" jrpgs but generalizing that all jrpg=persona.

>>725062753
Based and correct post

>>725062671
>Romancing Sagay 2
>generic as fuck rpg
Yes. Play more games newfag.

>>725058031 (OP)
Dragon Quest 5 and 8 mog

>>725062932
I'm not gonna pretend SMT isn't fucking normie too

>>725058031 (OP)
Yeah, it's alright

In hindsight, Yuko Takao is the actual villain of the story and the reason why all your friends are dead

>>725063051
And how about you actually play the game you double nigger.

>>725063132
I've never seen someone who knows it outside of 4chan. But assume it is, that makes FF and DQ even more normie. Are we not allowed to talk about those now? Shrugs.

>>725063727
It's one of my favorite games dumb fuck, it's generic.

What's the point of all those demons when the Riders and Daisoujo break the fucking game in half?

i don't trust anons saying SMT is good. they never give any reason why they are good so i assume it must be some sort of sunken cost they keeps them going

>>725064589
the skellingtons weren't in the original release, they're rerelease powercreep. but they are stupidly overtuned, especially daisoujou.

>>725064758
I like the demons, I like press turn, I like the themes, and I like the music. Those are the reasons the games are good for me.

>>725065261
>I like the demons
>I like the themes
smt is satanic. read the bible.

>>725065363
read the wrinkles on my nutsack

>>725064758
SMT is Pokemon but with a good story, characters and gameplay that is palatable to adults

>>725064758
There are multiple videos about how the series makes using and maintaining buffs, debuffs and ailments vital as well as how weaknesses don't just do more damage but shift advantage for you and the opponent all so that party arrangement and engaging with the mechanics feel significant instead of a suggestion.
Storywise it usually lets you have differing scenarios and multiple endings for replayability, and is one of the few cases of world folklore and mythology having a degree of utility in a fantasy game.

>>725065363
The Bible constantly references the demonic

>>725065363
No.

>>725065638
was TTGL referencing SMT?

>>725059010
4 has the best music, not the best plot.

>>725058031 (OP)
I don't know if I would say the best one, but at least compared to the ones you listed I think the answer is pretty obvious: Gameplay is actually really good. Final fantasy 7 has a lot of interesting systems but It's a bit lacking even compared to the likes of FF5 or FF10. Chrono Trigger is very fun but it's piss easy if you know what you are doing. Dragon Quest has a lot of really strong titles (I would honestly argue Dragon Quest 8 is another great choice for best JRPG ever) but from a gameplay and thematic perspective it tends to be less interesting for most people. I overall find it a bit hard to compare PS2 jrpg games to Snes jrpg games. Despite how similar they are in many regards a lot of the actual atmosphere and feel of the game is very much guided by the hardware, the technology and just the times when they were made. I do think they are probably the best period for JRPG's overall (I know some people will die by the PS1 era and I respect that but I tend to find them kind of awkward), and it's really staggering how good the games got.

>>725061949
I played the Snes remake of Megami tensei 1 and 2 and generally enjoyed it. Though I will admit most of that is just the music and atmosphere rather than the actual gameplay because, holy fucking shit, the OST is freaking amazing. Both of the Nes original and Snes remake.

>>725058031 (OP)
For my money, I don't think any JRPG has improved past FFX's combat mechanics. If FFX had actual dungeon crawling (the cloisters aren't terrible, but they are too short and too few) I would actually argue for it as the best.

Chrono Trigger is near the top if you value narrative/world reactivity (nearly non existent in JRPGs), replayability, and brevity.

The rest really is just taking your pick from whatever intangibles tickle your pickle. Vibes and what not.

>>725063051
>SMTroon telling people to play more games
Take Atlus' cock outta your mouth, retarded normalfag

>>725058031 (OP)
What exactly makes this one better than SMT 4 or 5?

>>725066712
Can't speak about 5, but 4 to me always feels like it gets way too easy way too fast. Also it honestly has too many demons.

>>725065450
>SMT is Pokemon but with a good story, characters and gameplay
Lol
>>725065451
>There are multiple videos about how the series makes using and maintaining buffs, debuffs and ailments vital as well as how weaknesses don't just do more damage but shift advantage for you and the opponent all so that party arrangement and engaging with the mechanics feel significant instead of a suggestion.
In other words, basic stuff in RPG. I guess this game is also unique and deep because you can use potions or other healing items/spells too.

For me, its the spinoff with actual good story and characters

>>725066965
Nocturne has the worst gameplay of any SMT game

>>725064758
I really like Nocturne for the atmosphere, I find the dungeons very fun to explore even if some people might hate it for the high encounter rate and I really like the story based on actual real world religion, I like how fun it is to fuse new demons and plan out their builds to future encounters, I like that you don't have a set party like other JRPGs so in some ways it feels like you're alone because the demons don't feel like true companions
Personally I can't find anything I don't like in Nocturne, maybe just that if you ignore the Maniax content, it might feel like a barebones game or "tech demo", but I can see why some people don't like it

>start playing SMT V for the first time
>this faggot filters me again

>>725066965
>overleveled party annihilates boss
Yeahh haha lol

>>725066712
Not a lot of talking. No companions every step of the way. No school shit. Atmosphere at 200%. Best artstyle in the series. Barely a plot. Gameplay is fine and just works. No doi garbage.

>>725060876
I remember completely cheesing SMT2 with status bullets, so I had a pretty fun experience with it.

>>725066993
I love Heat. Heat is my nigga but Gale is the realest nigga in the junkyard

>>725066993
Demi-fiend is a giganigga boss.
Finally killed him last night, now I can carry on with my replay into DDS2

>>725065896
TTGL has a thing about faces on their robots. Gurren Lagann has two, after Viral loses his robot's head they make fun of him. The anti-Spirals are introduced with faceless robots, and referred to as being faceless. Once they get past that into space and find out they have similar roots to the anti-Spirals, they have to deal with tons of these multi-faced monstrosities.

>>725058031 (OP)
Yes it's still great at launch

My biggest issue with Nocturne is that for a game with such minimal story its still really goddamn linear most of the time. It could have been a really cool game where you explore more freely since it doesn't have to worry about story shit

>>725071125
isn't that basically SMT V

>>725071289
dont know haven't played it

Isn't he the action game guy? Why is he sharing his opinions on a genre he doesn't care about?

It got completely and utterly mogged by this spinoff that no one talks about for some reason, despite it having a better plot and characters than any SMT game.

>>725074616
I prefer recruiting and using demons instead of just using the same 5 characters through the whole game.

>>725074816
The characters are fairly versatile can be made to fill any kind of role, but this is probably the most reasonable reason to prefer mainline SMT over DDS.

Do you also think DDS has a better story than mainline SMT games?

>>725074963
I only played like 12 or so hours of it but from what I remember it was just a lot of melodrama over the girl character that shows up.

>>725075013
It's worth finishing, just don't look at any spoilers and go in blind. last half of the first game and basically all of the second game become very kino.

>>725058031 (OP)
The best JRPG is FF13. It's unapologetic about it being a JRPG, which is at its best when it is presenting a drama primarily, and providing shitty filler gameplay secondarily. I'd even go as far as to say the best JRPGs are visual novels with a thin layer of gameplay.

>>725075464
>The best JRPG is FF13
worst take I've ever seen on /v/

Observe well the life long brain damage from irony poisoning.

>>725075663
In a thread where everyone thinks the best game is some obscure iteration of SMT, I'd say it's a median take at worst.

>>725059828
Every time I see Pixie her ass gets bigger. Im worried if this keeps up.

>>725075851
and aroused

>>725066872
>Too many demons
Of all the things to critique a SMT game about this is not one of them.

>>725058031 (OP)
You know what sucks? Not having ANY sort of warning that if you enter the final dungeon which is long as shit, you'll be locked out of completing amala, not even in the remaster, also fuck that pushing minigame and not being able to re-learn moves or read how strong an attack you're about to learn is, even pokémon does this shit. Also most endings are the same shit visually-speaking, the teacher has the best one in terms of effort put behind it, otherwise it's great, yeah.

>>725062113
This shot right there is pure cinema.

>>725065896
Similar shit appears in Shin Getter Robo IIRC

>>725058031 (OP)
imo it's tied with SMT4 as my least favorite of the numbered SMT. Great game? Yes. But I would hardly call it the best JRPG. As a complete package I'd nominate Dragon Quest III but there are games that do individual aspects better for sure.

the jrpg genre is so huge that it's kinda retarded to say any game is the best. i bet matty hasn't even played that many.

it's kinda crazy how little smt has changed since the 1992. the gameplay is pretty much exactly the same now as it was on the snes. the music still bangs too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS7ipOD6HbE

>>725080046
I'd argue the games have changed a lot over time with a different focus in their design. Older SMT has more resource management, but I'd say newer SMT has overall harder battles. I miss stuff like MAG or using macca to summon demons. I remember in SMT2 having to put demons away a lot because I didn't have enough MAG to keep them out early on, and I thought that was awesome because it made me think "how big of a party do I actually need right now?"
Agreed though SMT's music is still amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSa0Ut9GPg

>>725066872
the problem with SMT4 is that IT BARELY TELLSS YOU WHERE TO GO AAAAAAAAA IM FUCKING SICK OF GETTING LOST IN THE TOKYO OVERWORLD

>>725067121
you guys made such a big deal out of this guy. i played smt 3 for the first time like two years ago, and i beat this guy in like 3 minutes.

it got kinda boring from there and drawn out so i just stopped playing, but it wasn't challenging at all. maybe i'm just not a brainlet.

Incredibly overrated /v/ core slop that appears on half of the 3x3's but only on this board where people don't play games. I've played like 100 jrpgs and this one isn't even in the top 50%.

>42567 recruitable monsters and 256 job classes (more than SMT and DQ3)
>a casino minigame
The peak of the JRPG genre is Paradox RPG.

>>725080505
Real SMT fans know how to navigate a city they'll never go to.

>>725067907
How

>>725082624
wait monster girl quest lets you recruit monsters? Thats news to me.

>>725074616
>no one talks about for some reason
The reason being is that it's a mediocre spinoff. No it's not hidden gem, everyone knows and everyone decides not to talk about it.
Because it is simply mediocre.

>>725058031 (OP)
For that to be true, first of all it would have to the best MegaTen game, which I'm not sure about.
I find JRPGs to be a genre where not many games stand out above all the others, they all kind of give you what you want, and from there it depends on taste.
For example, I don't know what the best one on PS2 is by a long shot. If I said that version of Dragon Quest 5 is an all around amazing JRPG and deserves to be in the conversation, a lot of people would write that off just for being Dragon Question, so I dunno.

>>725058031 (OP)
I prefer 4 and 5.

>>725087785
Hey man, Dragon Quest is awesome. V may be one of my least favorites, but it's not a bad game, or anything less than great, for that matter.

>>725058031 (OP)
Another showcase that Matthew doesn't know shit about game design. But also weird considering Nocturne is DS2 of SMT

>>725058031 (OP)
It's up there but for me its the sequel.

>>725058031 (OP)
Where did he say that

>>725058031 (OP)
Taste is subjective. And nothing is more indicative of this than JRPGs. Where visual designs and "tone" are the biggest appeal. So one person will think Chrono Trigger is the best while another thinks Earthbound or SMT is. And neither can explain why. It just comes down to how it "feels" (design and tone).

We will never get a definitive version of SMT 1

>>725088056
Same
Love SMT3 but V is just a lot of what I've ever wanted from SMT

>>725058031 (OP)
https://youtu.be/3ckniA7YbB0?si=mxha4zCesS_cAa8c
X-Play was notorious for disliking JRPGs but they gave Nocturne a good score.

I've played pretty much every SMT game after 3 but not 3 itself. Is it worth checking out? I have a feeling it will feel pretty dated.

>>725090063
I liked 3, but had a big of a knee jerk reaction to it since I played it right after 1 and 2 and thought "this isn't really SMT to me". Once I got over that, it got better and better the deeper I got into it. I still prefer Super Famicom Megaten in general but Nocturne is a very solid game and worth at least one playthrough imo.

>>725090063
>I have a feeling it will feel pretty dated.
A grueling experience became its defining aesthetic, farming meme videos around that used to be SMT channel bread and butter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3QyPPeeRbw

>>725090434
Also found this while going through my Nocturne vid history
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl_6rN8UUvo

>>725087968
Although I think DQ's simplicity is a huge advantage over games that add longer animations without greater gameplay depth, the battle system has to be taken into account too. Atlus's system can wear thin cause they've made so many games but it also stands out because it doesn't have a lot of competition.

>>725058250
Why do you think FF7 and CT are bad? Don't say the difficulty, I couldn't take you shitting on those games while talking about fucking SMT4 highly

>>725060876
>Nearly impossible to recruit demons
level INT
>they do shit damage
they're not as strong as the humans but they do a decent enough job, the whole deal with demons is strength in numbers, individually they're not great but together they can hang well enough after they're doing buffing/debuffing. magic in general is pretty bad though, which certainly hurts alot of demons combat wise
>die easily
this makes me think you didn't play very far into the game, because this stops being true pretty quickly.
>drain a resource you will run out of
you're just bad at managing your MAG, you don't need your full party out when sweeping trash fights in dungeon crawls, you only pull everyone out for a big boss fight.
>the map sucks
yeah it's not great, if the automap in SMT2 PS1 is anything like SMT1 PS1 it fixes all of those issues, but unless you can read moon you're shit outta luck.

source for all of this: me I beat the game for the first time not even a year ago

>>725066965
>In other words, basic stuff in RPG
you can beat basically every single player FF and pokemon game without using any buffs, ailments or even exploiting weaknesses.

>>725081125
for many he's the first boss in any JRPG that actually forced them to use buffs/debuffs. gotta keep in mind the skill floor for the genre is in hell, with the biggest names in the medium being so easy a blind retarded toddler can beat them.

>>725064275
SMT? Yes. Not SaGa. Calling SaGa generic is laughable, even the actual generic one, Final Fantasy Legend III because you still have beast men, monster, cyborg, and robot transformations.

>>725088056
if SMTV/VV had more classic level design and a halfway decent plot I'd agree. the combat and team building is the best it's ever been, but then the game is basically just a bunch of hallways with 0 navigational threats whatsoever.

>>725090063
it holds up really well, the only thing I feel that has made it feel "aged" is the random skill inheritance in the PS2 version of the game. the remaster has manual inheritance, but it also kind of fucks up the aesthetic of the game and completely butchers the music, the latter of which is fixable via a mod but if you're on console you're shit outta luck.

>>725091226
I think DQ's simplicity also allows for toying with it in fun ways. I played through DQ1 HD and holy shit, they really made me think with some of those end game encounters and it was awesome. I love SMT as well, but I've always found that while I like press turn, it's other stuff in the older games that make me like them more. Atlus does make fun combat systems though, I can't deny that. Funnily enough, I've found stuff like Wizardry V to be some of the most fun I've had in combat in any RPG. Simple with just enough nuance and resource management to always be engaging.
>>725091459
nta, but I think FF7 is...okay. I just remember the game being super easy overall, but I have played worse games. It's also been going on 20 years since I played it though as a teenager, so I should give it another shot and see what I think of it now. I did drop CT though, I got very, very bored overall. I think CT is a game where a hard mode romhack would do wonders for it.

>>725058031 (OP)
No.
>According to Matthewmatosis this is the best JRPG ever made
He's hardly played any JRPG's. He's said multiple times on his streams he doesn't like the genre.

I played it for like 10 hours. It's just a bunch of hallways. SMT 5 is way better, I loved every second of SMT5.

>>725058031 (OP)
No because Earthbound is the best JRPG. Anyway SMT is usually pretty good too, even though JRPGs are a dogshit genre in general.

>>725058031 (OP)
the Nortubel of JRPG
MatthewMatosis should play nortubel

>>725066919
the actual lyrics are "war broke out in heaven"

>>725059924
Do newfags know we used to talk with him here? He still has tripcodes in his about section on his channel.

>>725058031 (OP)
>random encounters
V is better

>>725058031 (OP)
I like Matthewmatosis videos and I think SMT3 sucks huge bull balls.

Simply put, it's not fun. SMT 3 is like Metroid 2 to me, created a lot of things we have nowadays but these things were only refined in later entries.The definition of a potential game.

>>725060953
SMT5/SMT5V shit on SMT3

>>725097987
it's like the game was made before they realized what is fun. It's the ultimate tryhard game.

Man, i was not expecting SMT V to be so fucking sexy.
Every female demon is pure sexo. Is the rest of the franchise also like this?

>>725098264
Generally, yes there are tons of sexy dames in every game. But Vengeance in particular had a theme around sexy snake women so it had more than usual.

>>725058031 (OP)
It's good but not even the best in its own series.
VV > IV > III

>>725058031 (OP)
i had more fun with 5, nocturne felt tedious most of the time

>>725058031 (OP)
no its nostalgia fags, most other game even in the same series mog it

>>725074616
>>725066993
>game so good it instantly got a sequel while nocturd gets forgotten and needs a decade for a sequel
>doesnt need to be a superboss in every game so people dont forget about him
>thus means he's unbeatable for any other weak smt mc, theyre scared
>actually fucks demi bitch in ng+, symbolizing his take over of atlus
>only bothers with him in ng+ since he is too busy having a story people care about
>either fully human or fully demon, not a retard who cant choose
>powerlevel so high he decides its only fair that he uses one less partymember, wants to give his enemies a chance
>doesnt have full body tats showing that hes somebodys bitch
>subtle facetat to invoke fear in his enemies before he devours them
>novel level story
>doesnt need multiple rereleases, was perfect at the first try
>doesnt need multiple endings like an indecisive bitch
>picks one ending and sticks with it like a man
>so spiritual he invents a new element
>didnt need to soul out with 3rd party characters, he was enough for advertisment
>confident in his ass, makes europeans stare at it longer in glorious 50fps
>already a gang leader, doesnt need to "negotiate" with strangers by bribing them with life stones
>unremasterable, hd cant render its soul
>joker is too respectfully scared to make fun of him with overprices costumes
>his friends say more than 3 sentences in the whole game
>his friends actually want to travel with him
>was a chad even before his demon powers
>doesnt sell at almost full price on steam
>doesnt sell you content western people had for free for 10 bucks
>filters modern audiences that piss their pants when they hear emulation
>full voice acting
>doesnt forget old skills when learning new ones
>superior ost
>niche spin off of an already niche series, ensuring low quantity yet high quality discussion
>almost bankrupts atlus as his spiritual powers allow him to see through the illusion of money

demi who? serph won

>>725066993
i prefer dds over nocturne because nocturne just reminds me of how alone iam

>>725058031 (OP)
I am here to say that I don't like SJ. Good day

>>725058031 (OP)
It I ironically needs better story and characters to be a good RPG

>>725074616
>>725099536
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCuOjfyUHnA
A really good main battle theme for the second game.

>>725058031 (OP)
i wish more songs had the weird vocals i cant understand

>>725058031 (OP)
I have this game on switch (remaster), should I emulate original PS2 version on my phone/PC instead?

>>725074616
>that no one talks about for some reason
it doesnt have a remaster so newer atlus fans dont know about it, people that come from p5 will check out other games on their system, not dig through retro consoles

>>725100989
Also I haven't played DMC and I don't want Dante in my game. I think Switch ver replaces Dante with Raidou?

>>725101258
the remaster lets you choose between dante or raidou

>>725101258
raidou replaces dante in the remaster, you need to buy the dlc for dante

>>725101737
It also let's you play pre-maniax version without any of the added content.

Make sure to pick Chronicles for Raidou

i like the pose that he does and always made that in front of a mirror as a teenager to look cool

>>725058031 (OP)
nah

it's the best rpg atlus ever made but ff7 is better

sex with Yuko

>>725089117
>And neither can explain why. It just comes down to how it "feels" (design and tone).
We talked about the gameplay of the game multiple time. CT also has an unusual battle system.
You, who don't play games, start assuming things. You don't listen or read to the posts either. You only make random assumptions of the genre and conclude that they're right, so-to-speak you post by "feels".

>>725058031 (OP)
It's not even the best Shin Megami Tensei game in the series.

>>725104086
shes a bitch and is the reason the world even was destroyed

>>725104086
i still dont get what her problem even was

>>725104086
>omg demi find me and ill help you with everything
>omg demi help me im retarded

>>725104086
atlus writers always have a thing for teacher-student relationships

>>725104549
>This world sucks, let's destroy it
>On second thought, I miss the world let's bring it back

>>725058031 (OP)
It's not but it's still pretty good.

>>725065997
This, 4's plot has no nuance at all, neutral is objectively the best route (as always) and the characters have basically no ideological development whatsoever, Walter and Jonathan are both well meaning guys who get tricked by Lucifer and the Archangels into giving up their lives so they can become their avatars and lead a genocidal crusade

>>725104790
Internet nihilists in a nutshell

>>725058031 (OP)
>the best JRPG?
it's the one that I think is the best
>the worst JRPG?
the ones I don't like

>>725102703
I want an MC that just like Demifiend except 6inches taller and 30lbs of muscle heavier. Tired of twink protags. Just make him a bishie to not put off the Japs too much.

>>725105346
The average JRPG player wouldn't be able to self insert as a 6+ inches musclehead dude

>>725075663
He immediately stated he hates jrpg in the same comment. Which is pretty much the standard opinion of people companies listen to. "I just want the story, get rid of the game part." The worst part is that these absolutely retarded fucks refuse to watch someone else play through the game. Like holy shit Twitch and Youtube are entirely catered to retarded fucks just like you, go there. But no, they feel like playing it gives them some kind of bizarre social credit and they get to be included with the cool kids (who they disdain with their entire being).
The whole thing makes no fucking sense. They just see people they hate enjoying something and want it taken away.

>>725064758
Pokemon but with demons, uses lore and mythology around the world for the mon designs. I usually like the settings and ideas presented in the different factions, story is serviceable most of the time. Music is amazing, gameplay can be fun if you like turn based jrpgs

>>725058031 (OP)
no, Dark Souls is

>>725107273
Someone already tried that bait in the beginning of the thread.

>>725099441
bino mogs demi so hard its insane

>>725058031 (OP)
I played SMT V Canon of Creation on hard last year, 115 hours and got the special neutral ending without planning it (since the trigger is an unrelated side quest). Is the Canon of Vengence even worth it? I have to itch for a jrpg and I love megaten but just thinking about all the grinding for demons when I could play something else is what keeps me on the fence. Im also considering the SaGa 2 remake

>>725098264
cuteness > sexyness

>>725107651
yes its worth vengeance actually has a story this time. you can keep your compendium in ng+ so you dont have to grind for the demons again

>>725107685
smt 6 story should be about entering valhalla and challening bragi to a duel, the winner gets idun as a wife

>>725082624
Never got to that one because the first game was so strict with what ability to use when that it was more a puzzle game. Also it stopped getting threads. Not sure if that was mod fuckery.

>>725098264
They existed in earlier games but V was more blatant about it.

>>725058031 (OP)
Nocturne’s great, amazing even, but Matthew is a retard whose opinion is worth jackshit and the fact that he praises the game almost makes me love it less.
Broken clock is still right twice a day and whatnot

Is Imagine any good or is it just a shitty MMO?

>>725108915
literally who?

>>725105602
>self insert
Bleh

Fucking hell I don’t think there’s a single non-zoomer ITT

Shin Megami Tensei 1 and 2 are wonderful games, but they need remakes badly. The graphics are just too archaic. All buildings look the same.

>>725107685
will i get a cute idun wife if i look like this?

>>725110735
nice comment unc

>>725111083
Looking like that you would get a femboy lover you fruitcake.

>>725111137
Back to fortnite zoomzoom

>>725110735
>people are... YOUNGER THAN ME????
>AAAAIIIIEEEE IM GOING INSANE

>>725114034
When they have retarded things to say about a game that came out when they weren't even born, you’re god damn right

>>725093115
I always thought he was a tendie

>>725114884
Shin Megami Tensei was born in a Nintendo console.

>>725110735
This is SO true!
-posted from my iAvocadoToast

>>725114921
and so is Xenoblade and Dragon Quest, but tendies also hate it for being a JRPGs

>>725111010
I wish we could get a remake of SMT 1 and 2. Instead we get Persona 3 and 4

>>725114983
Then they aren't really tendies are they?

>>725115048
maybe not, I meant tendie as the usual nintendo fan that hates jrpgs

>>725058031 (OP)
4 is better, just underrated because DS only

>>725107343
because it's not bait?

>>725115125
How can you love Nintendo and hate jrpgs when fucking Final Fantasy was a Nintendo staple until PS1. Most of the most legendary jrpgs began with Nintendo. The SNES was flooded with them. The NES too. N64 when it all began to go to shit.

>>725115245
it's more common than you think

>>725115451
Babies born after the n64 should remain quiet and lurk for 3 years before posting.

>>725115451
I think you're making up strawmans in your head to argue about though

>>725072128
NTA but you did just describe SMTVV. So go play it.

>>725115546
Babies born after the atari 2600 should shut the fuck up while men are talking

>>725063698
She kinda only did everything because the monk leader of a cult wanted to pursue buddhism on crack.

Panzer Dragoon Saga is the best JRPG ever.

>>725116547
>SEGA

>>725074616
Hard agree. More people would agree if DDS wasn’t so unknown to the series’ fanbase. Literally some of the best games on the PS2 right there.

more like Faghew Faghomo-tis
LOL

not enough waifus

>>725060597
I loved smt4, 4a and 5. I just couldn't get into strange journey. Maybe its because I played the 3ds version but honestly the differences between it and the ds original seem to be mainly autism

>>725101954
And the vanilla version is the best, thematically consistent version. Added content is ok but for repeated playthroughs. All Atlas extended editions should allow to play the vanilla version, as all (or at least most) are a better tighter experience that way.

>>725122623
does the vanilla version ever explain who the blonde kid is?

>>725122328
3ds designs 2ugly

Should I start this franchise with III or V? V looks so pretty and fun, but people I trust recommended me to play III first.

>>725119184
uh.. that wasnt funny..

>>725122953
You can start with either one. Nocturne is the classic that set thr ground work for pretty much every Atlus game and VV is all the systems in Nocturne working at peak.

>>725122953
Fine either way.

>>725122816
D-does it need to? I mean, even if you've never had any exposure to SMT it's immediately obvious that the blonde kid is the devil.

>>725123064
>>725123081
How does the story compare to P5 and Metaphor?

>>725123247
It's minimalistic but in a good way.

>>725123247
It's like P5 without the hours of cutscenes.

>>725123247
The story is extremely barebones and isn't as spelled out. The game is largely about atmosphere and visuals. I played it for the first time recently and it looks very impressive, unlike anything else really. It can get tedious though, as there's no real town/social element.

>>725058031 (OP)
No.

Next question

>>725123247
Esoteric religious rituals have caused the downfall of the world, you wander around the wasteland punching demons in the dick and all your friends turn into schizos and you have to put them down. That's pretty much the plot of every SMT game, and that's about it. There's some interesting use of mythology if you read way to deep into it but these aren't story games they're gameplay games. Even if they're not blobbers anymore they feel like you're playing a blobber.

>>725123153
yes introducing a major character like him, who is the reason you are even able to fight, and then leave him unexplained just leaves a bitter impresssion

>>725124170
The game is called Lucifer's Call in japanese. I don't think there's any mystery even without that though.

>>725123034
yeah it was and now you're mad. Little Faggot Junior over here is gonna cry LOL

>>725124259
The Japanese name was Nocturne, it was only called Lucifer’s Call in Europe.

>>725124348
He would've been Faggot VIII if not for his mom changing his middle name to 'Shitbutt'. He comes from a long line of Faggots.

Children, behave. Sit down. Class isn't over yet.

>>725124589
My dad says you substitute teachers are pathetic and make less than an In N Out employee flipping burgers

>>725123247
This game is nothing like Persona 5/Metaphor, it's a pure dungeon crawler with minimal storytelling, basically a turn-based Dark Souls. There are hardly any cutscenes or characters to talk with.

>>725124701
Your dad can barely read so what he has to say really matters little to me. Don't be like your dad.

>>725124259
i played the eu version which is also lucifers call so i didnt feel any mystery either, but i think it gives the player a feeling of closure to have a reveal of the guy who gave you your powers at the start of the game. i remember getting a creation ending first and just feeling left confused as to why he just never showed up during it

>>725058031 (OP)
i enjoyed it a lot but idk if it follows the jrpg formula closely enough to really be called the best jrpg ever. it's pretty light on story unlike most jrpgs where you get a cutscene with the party members chatting every five minutes. plus your team is all just lackeys you dump/fuse constantly while typical jrpgs usually have set party members with their own stories. i'd probably say Chrono Trigger is the greatest JRPG of all time even though I might personally prefer Nocturne as a game

>>725124778
My dad makes like 5 times what you do, substitute cuck. You couldn't even become a real teacher. If YOU knew how to read you wouldn't be a glorified babysitter. Watch me slap you across the face and you sit there and take it, bitch ass faggot.

>>725061247
Oh no not the 1-time element block that only eats 2 press turns and is far less effective if there's more than one enemy on the field
You people overrate dampeners way too much

>>725124917
they pretty much make you immune against the enemys magatsuhi skill

>>725124912
Your dad can't even make your mom orgasm. That's why she's drinking all the time.

>>725058031 (OP)
5 succeeds it in every way gameplay wise

>>725125089
my mom's a teetotaller. Leave it to a substitute faggot to sit in class day dreaming about his cuck fantasies while teenagers disrespect him all day LOL
Real life 4chan janny

>>725067121
Matador is the absolute GOAT, If you fuse him and level him to get his self-buff, he clears the first half for you almost by himself

>>725125051
And like I said, it only eats 2 press turns and only blocks once, if there's more than one enemy on the field then the turn is not over and every enemy has guaranteed crit still
A good example is the Naamah + Glasya fight
>alright time to use wind dampener
>ah shit

>>725058031 (OP)
I liked the feeling of isolation. If you came across a human, it was fucking worth it. 4 and especially 5 make it seem extremely trivial. Every encounter was significant to the growth of the other characters. Take V's for example. They wanted to do the same with Ichiro, but it was borderline fucking comical
Other than that, the gameplay is solid. Sometimes less is more. Demons were more peculiar. Accidents could actually play in your favor too. The only negative is that it's really really hard to get rid of daisoujou once he's in your team healing and siphoning mp. It trivializes mid and even end game
Also the secrets. The amala dungeon is really good for setting the true demon route tone, and hunting magatamas in worthwhile side quests (not the "please grab 5 beads for me" ones)
It's just a much more complete game, even with its bullshit

>>725125319
>it only eats 2 press turns
That's why you first cast dampener and then tetrakarn or makarakarn, then enemy loses all turns. That's a well known strategy for defeating ishtar with 8 press turns or trivializing yuzuru by using ice dampener + magic mirror so hayataro never gets a turn.

>>725066965
>800 hp damage check attack only does 300 damage
This is literally modded to be easier then easy mode. The easy mode hp check is 500.

>>725064758
the combat isn't as deep as some people make it out to be but it's still fun and rewards you for at least paying enough attention to remember what demons are weak to (less so in later games where it just tells you forever once you've discovered a weakness). some of the boss fights are unique enough to be good and it feels like you're solving a puzzle rather than just spamming your strongest attack. only talking about press-turn, the games that use another system suck (sorry strange journey fags, demon co-op is ass)

the real fun IMO is the fusion. i always enjoy unlocking special fusions in mid-to-late game that have me going back to pick up some low level shitters that i then combine into some broken monster. glad they just let you choose which skills get inherited in the nocturne remake, it breaks the balance of the game a bit but it's not fun reloading over and over if you want something specific

beyond that, it's really just the atmosphere that i like. nocturne especially is great for that. not even because it's "edgy pokemon", but the way the environments look and the music just make the setting feel very cool to be in. people like 4a's gameplay tweaks but the party members ruin the atmosphere for me and knowing that i can kill them all 90% of the way through the game doesn't offset that

>>725125204
If I'm the janny then what makes you? The baby I have to baby sit because daddy and mommy would rather make money for Mister Shekelstein than spent time raising you. Now if you could shut up you could learn something from the only man in this world that gives you the time of the day.

>>725125724
it makes me not a janny, bitch boy. Now clean it the fuck up

>>725058031 (OP)
https://youtu.be/cSc39PGG6vE

>>725126021
You'll be cleaning shit really soon, Anon. School doesn't last forever. Smart kids learn, dumb kids never shut up.

>>725067121
Hey, that's my candelabra!

>>725126174
>dumb kids never shut up
>as he gets baited and replies for the 45th time in one thread
lol

>>725125656
>This is literally modded to be easier then easy mode.
Copium, that's just hard with all buffs and debuffs.

>>725126323
Are you saying he's not one of my actual students and this isn't my classroom? Would make sense considering I'm not a teacher.

>>725126425
Smart kids learn, dumb kids never shut up.

i want to play the remaster, is using raidou worth it? he has a pierce now unlike dante (on ps2 atleast) but is it worth bothering with him since he cant be fused with mitamas?

>>725074616
lol, lmao even Raidou games mog DDS hard.

>>725058031 (OP)
Nocturne is probably the worst mainline megaten game lmao it's nowhere near the best JRPG.

>>725124765
Truly the Dark Souls of Persona

>>725122328
3ds version has a distracting character thrown in but the game itself is otherwise fine. Best thing about SJ is that it doesn't have the retarded connecting map all the other SMT end up having.
I'd say getting into any of them is just hard for the learning curve of the first one, recognizing demons and figuring out you can just throw them together.

>>725126631
>is using raidou worth it?
he's ok

jrpgs are going to die with milenials, luckily

>>725126935
persona 5 ensured zoomers will stay with them and 6 will save the alphas

>>725126935
>the retard says, as JRPGs have titles that sell more than ever before
lmao

>>725125319
>oh look its retarded
Bosses are 1 enemy. The dampeners ruined the game but so did the platforming for collectibles, not having dungeons and graphics limiting demon variety.

>>725126935
turn based should die yes

>>725126631
pierce for dante/raidou never really mattered. stinger is phys almighty anyways. what's notable is their damage passive boosts almighty and they get aoe electric so they're good at clearing trash mobs. a demon with pierce and deathbound is the best damage setup in endgame and shiva can do that easily.

>>725127532
they dont announce "hey im using an ice attack if you want to shield your self or something" in dds

>>725127532
>dds
soul, i like noc but it cant compete with the comfyness of dds

>>725127710
You also get 3 dampners and shield spells cost 50 fucking MP in V while shield spells in DDS cost 3 MP (lol lmao). So you can (and should) but up ice shield in every turn

>>725062113
It's one of the last times it felt like the true creatives at Atlus were allowed to flex.

>>725127710
no instead you have to get fucked first then you figure out what shield to slot and use it every turn. v handles the idea much better.

>>725128185
SMT V is beautiful. Don't be so melodramatic. You became jaded.

>>725128293
SMTV was derivative of Nocturne and not nearly as original.

>>725128386
SMTV is suppose to be a spiritual sequel, jaded-kun. It's tribute, not mockery.

>>725128519
And I take a "sequel" after every meal. That doesn't mean the corn is as appetizing the second time.

>>725128519
>V is just III
>IV/A is just II
does that mean VI is just going to be a "tribute" to I?

>>725129685
I don't know, Anon. Atlus does whatever it wants. We might get another sequel for V for all we know. Remember II is a direct sequel of I. Where do you leave Strange Journey?

>>725129836
I want Strange Journey 2 in space/on the moon/Mars

>>725129973
Strange Journey 2 would be so dope. I want more of Doomguy.

>>725129973
I don't want current Atlus to touch Strange Journey. They already fucked it up in the 3DS port. We don't need a Soul Hacker 2 situation.

>>725081125
>heh a guide told me to use buffs/debuffs and he wasn't that hard y'all just bad at games :)

>>725058031 (OP)
It is more of a traditional old-school dungeon crawler than the more story-centric games you mention yet it still has great visuals, character design, music and atmosphere.
Exploring large, mazey dungeons and tough encounters is the name of the game so it is less casual than the games you mention.
It isn't for everyone though since it can require grinding and surprise you with encounters that will rape your party in a second unless you have the right demons in your team, but you're not going to run into bullshit "vampires that make you level down" or "your party ages like in Wizardry" bullshit either.

tl;dr great mix of what makes both old dungeon crawlers and JRPGs appealing without going too deep into stat management autism or suffering from autopilot combat encounters.

>>725074616
the devour mechanic is a drag, one of the grindiest mechanics ive seen in a jrpg

>>725131925
devouring barely advances a mantra too.
>grind for cash
>grind for ap
>grind for hp noise if you want to fight demi
it kills my desire to replay dds when I think about it.

>>725131925
its so useless i always forget about it

>>725076591
I would agree with this.
Moves you learn from magatama should go into a bank you can learn whenever.
I'd understand making them single use this way, to prevent shit like free form resistance tailoring for every boss, but at least put them in a bank so you don't have to make advance decisions about what your build is gonna be in 10 hours, or carry a useless passive for half the game until you get the rest of the build that it works with, or be paranoid about equipping a particular Magatama, because you don't want to learn this skill before you need it.
Demons, it's less of an issue, you can just refuse the demon if you need a particular skill, it's inconvenient to not have a bank for them, but not a real issue the way it is for DF.
I'll say, it is really nice they just let you select your fusion skills for the remastered. Casualized or not, this is what everyone already did anyways, and just saves 15 minutes of rolling, and the pain of canceling a godroll because you're accustomed to failure.

>>725129836
>Where do you leave Strange Journey?
in a spinoff universe, like If was.

>>725127710
Not gonna lie
I prefer telegraphed big attacks to you just gotta know. It increases the interactivity of bosses, too, since you always have the option of building around tanking the big attack, and using the free turn for offense anyways.
Most of it wasn't realized well, but the basic bones behind how bosses work in Digimon Time Stranger is actually pretty good as far as jrpg boss design goes, and I'd actually really like to see bosses like that in SMT, where they could be done better.

>>725076591
>Not having ANY sort of warning that if you enter the final dungeon which is long as shit, you'll be locked out of completing amala, not even in the remaster,
yeah what's also silly is that you can go in the tower and grab the chakra elixir before finiahing amala.
>also fuck that pushing minigame
there's a mod for that
>and not being able to re-learn moves or read how strong an attack you're about to learn is,
there's a mod for that
>Also most endings are the same shit visually-speaking, the teacher has the best one in terms of effort put behind it, otherwise it's great, yeah.
this is intentional, reasons are a scam.

>>725127657
>stinger is phys almighty anyways.
It matters for any of the endgame bosses with hidden almighty resistances, which was always the actual problem.

>>725124765
That's what SMT IS though.
Characters aren't really characters, they're mouthpieces of particular philosophies, and the long down time between interactions is your time to reflect on what has been presented to you.

>>725074616
I'm a huge fan of Digital Devil Saga, but Nocturne is just simply more fun to play.
The press turn system is similar with some changes (elemental shields namely in DDS on top of the other buff/debuff emphasis present in press turn) but holy hell is the mantra system a drag. It is better in 2 and again I do really love this duology its close, but the gameplay is what severely downgrades it in my mind and puts it below Nocturne.

>>725058031 (OP)
>travel for 3 hours worth of random encounters with no saves
>ambushed by 5 enemies who all target the MC
>game over despite having healing and rezzing demons
Press turn is garbage and is just a nuke race, but the real pain in the ass is the mc being mission critical since at any moment the game can just decide you lose
Oh and outside the really bullshit bosses it's lame boss fight only

>>725133447
>Moves you learn from magatama should go into a bank you can learn whenever.
thats why i like dds, you dont have to guess what skills youll need

>>725058031 (OP)
I think it's the atmosphere. The game does have interesting mechanics too so it's kinda fun to play.
Also it's kinda unbalanced but it's the fun kind of unbalanced. Roadblocks and bosses are pretty memorable.
You're also alone and your party is full of partners/demons who aren't really loyal to you but that also adds to the world.
It also touches some philosophical stuff so it kinda makes you think.
I don't think there is a game that can be compared to Nocturne, it feels unique
>>725091459
Some people think you have to hate popular JRPGs/games in order to look like they have better taste.
You don't have to like or celebrate every great game. Sometimes a game can be good but just doesn't click with you as it does with others.

>>725133984
how are mantras a drag? its the same as magatamas, only that you store youre skills

>>725133819
which only noah and lucifer

>>725134295
I'd say, mantras feel... "grindy".
There should absolutely be a system in place to let one party member share access to a mantra, rather than everyone needing to grind all the way up to something. It adds a MASSIVE grind to most character development choices that aren't just a straight line, and really discourages swapping out any of the earlier characters with later ones, because you're signing up for a grind by doing so.

>>725134241
I like Nocturne, because Nocturne is one of the few jrpgs with the balls to say, you will not win most boss battles on your first attempt.
Your first attempt is a scouting run to see what you will need to deal with, and then you tailor a team for them. Sometimes, sure, you get lucky and walk into a boss with exactly what you need to deal with them, or later on have a build strong enough to run over things that don't directly counter you. Too many jrpgs just assume you win against every boss.

SMT3 is incredibly dull in every aspect except for the gameplay, and the gameplay is not interesting enough to carry it. I genuinely don't get how people claim the atmosphere is its strong point when it feels like a shitty mockup of what SMT1 already did on the SNES

>>725134653
>There should absolutely be a system in place to let one party member share access to a mantra,
okay fair its been a long time since i played and i remember wishing for this aswell

>>725134849
>you will not win most boss battles on your first attempt.
I think a boss designed with your failure in mind is a bad boss. Elden ring does the same where you need to memorize every single attack, delay, mixup, catch, punish and range to do it sensibly. Or there are methods to just ignore the boss entirely and jump r2 it to death while eating every hit. It's poor balance.

However in Nocturne I rarely felt like I had to lose the first time.

>>725134849
Good point but when I think about it, it sounds like a general design flaw.
Can't change your setup during combat so you're fucked.
on the other hand if the game doesn't require you to do that, most battles kinda feel lame.
But it's also fun figuring out weaknesses and coming up with a plan

>>725135297
No, ER doesn't require that. You can get by most of the time by reacting properly.
The issue with ER is that enemy movement improved a lot compared to DeS/DaS1.
The player character on the other hand, became very stiff. Sometimes you could dodge a boss combo but get only like 1-2 hits in because your recovery animation is so ass while the boss is ready to go with his next combo where he just flies around the arena

>>725074616
i wish they got remastered just so we have mod support.
>higher difficulty
>make mantra progression shareable
>improve devour and give it a magic version
>reduce encounter rate and balance xp to match it
would mog every other jrpg so hard

>>725135462
>You can get by most of the time by reacting properly.
You cannot. Human beings cannot react to most of the things ER bosses throw your way without knowing about them preemptively and being prepared with the correct defense. Especially for stomps and sweeps which for some reason you can rarely actually jump over.

>>725135462
you have more options at any given poimt in time than ever in ER. if you're not satisfied with the rolling recovery there's tons of alternatives. you feel that way because from has been trying to break your rollspam circle strafing mule behavior since ds3.

>>725135297
>Elden ring does the same where you need to memorize every single attack, delay, mixup, catch, punish and range to do it sensibly.
Eh not really
I think it does if you're married to rollslop combat, Elden Ring is a lot more about cobbling together something oppressive, and bullying bosses so they can't do their thing.
Either range spamming, status, staggerlocks, ect.
I don't think it's especially good design, but I think the idea of having to memorize attack patterns comes from that place of Dark Souls bosses, where player capabilities were minimal, and bosses had very few attacks to keep track of, where Elden Ring doesn't really WANT you to fight bosses that way. That's what the damage spike at around Altus says to me, too. You really aren't supposed to let bosses play their game, as a primary gameplay objective.

>>725135926
This
Honestly, with how ludicrously powerful guard counters are, I think shields are just better than rolling like 80% of the time.
And most shield piercing moves are punishable, for the 20% of the time dodging is better.