Thread 725382551

shmups and puzzle experts have united and reached the consensus that jrpgs aren't video games

>>725382551 (OP)
it's just seethe because E33 did so well compared to their indie games which are ugly and no one caers about lol

jonathan blow literally can't play hollow knight and breath of the wild, they're too complex for him

he should be immediately disregarded when talking about anything else than autistic puzzle games

>>725385213
/thread

>>725382551 (OP)
JRPG's are for literal NPC's.

>>725382551 (OP)
>really good art direction
jonathan blow is fucking retarded

>>725382551 (OP)
faggots who don't like JRPGs trying to "fix" them was the first wave of woke tourists that ruined the entire industry.

All involved are retarded, including OP

>>725382551 (OP)
Based bog as usual

>guy that never made a good game has opinion
and why should I take it seriously?

I forgot Mark, anal destroyer of soulshitters was supposed to release the NG4 review. thanks for reminding me unintentionally.

>>725385354
he just exposes bad game design

>>725387414
hi jonathan

your games suck btw

>xitter repost
kys yourself trannoid

>>725382551 (OP)
>TWITTER SAYS IM RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!

>>725386180
Mark is too powerful. If /v/ found him en masse, their entire personality and opinions about gaming would change overnight. The dude is a philosopher of hardcore gaming

>>725385213
FPBP
troons malding

>>725385809
Why did Squaresoft do that in 1996?

I wish gayme analcyst channels were more like Running Shine or Seer where they'd for better or for worse just try to cram as much dumb humor in as possible.
All this talking about video games with the gravity of someone giving an obituary is faggotry of the highest level tbdesu.

>>725390449
>Stop liking your hobby!

>>725385213
Pretty much this.

>>725382551 (OP)
That second guy is right, he's not criticizing JRPGs he's criticizing the lack of ideas people have about them
There are modern turn-based games that have incredible strategic expression and great encounter design but those ideas simply don't occur to the common troglodyte that makes video essays because they're hard to conceptualize, harder to explain and hardest of all to actually implement.
Exped 33 was a good action game and a mediocre turn-based game because all of the problems could be solved with rote execution checks.

>video games
>game of videos
jrpg are the quintessential video game

>>725387414
>start dread
>bored after 10 minutes
>never open again
Nothing lost.

Shmups are the most autistic game genre on-market, nothing but bright blinking lights and rote pattern memorization, they really shouldn't throw stones at actual popular genres with actual gameplay.

>>725382551 (OP)
Blow is an old has been and should shut up

>>725382551 (OP)
they unironically fixed it they just made all of the games babu teir that never really use the mechanics

>>725391997
Pokemon didn't fix anything and only made the problems more noticeable. It is a fine starter RPG but the things pokemon trains you into are bad habits.

>>725382551 (OP)
the pig fucker ng2 fanboy is correct about fake jrpg fans. their solution to rpg gameplay is "don't have rpg gameplay"
the correct solution is to have a variety of non-damage effects like buffs, debuffs and useful statuses for the player to juggle, and enemies that delete you if you rely on the same strategy over and over

>>725382551 (OP)
I used to be a regular on the RPG Codex, where there was a lot of discussion about how to improve turn-based combat. The main solution proposed was to reduce or even completely remove "trash mobs" from the game entirely. kek

It's true that nobody hates turn-based combat in RPGs more than a self-proclaimed turn-based "fan". They would probably just play real-time games, if they weren't brainlets that can't think in real time.

>>725391997
>>725392187
playing hard pokemon rom hacks and fan games is interesting. the actual movesets in pokemon are very creative and fun to play with. making the game hard turns it into a sort of puzzle.
the problem is game freak refuses to ask anything of their players, not even with an optional challenge mode or whatever, so you never get to see how the game could work if it was fun.
some of those fan games are really shitty though. a "hard" pokemon game rapidly approaches being a endless farming/grinding sim if you just don't have any mons capable of beating the boss.

why should I care? I don't care what you call them, they are all time wasters and if a game entertains you then what the fuck does it matter if other people don't consider them games? And what the fuck does a stupid ass award matter when most of the years some FOTM trash wins that you personally didn't enjoy? You don't get paid when your favorite game wins, the industry is getting progressively worse regardless of what wins GOTY and most people online are fucking retarded so their opinion is worthless. In the end you play games just for yourself so you are the only judge you need.

>>725382551 (OP)
I've never heard of this literal-who until he said random dumb shit. Is /v/ being raided by his orbiters?

>>725385213
AIIIIIIIIIIIIE Chudigga chudigga chudiggaphobecel, you're gonna send me and the sistas straight to hell!

>>725392254
Having a JRPG be a boss rush would be fine. If they're going to put 0 effort into making regular enemies actually dangerous then may as well.

>>725382551 (OP)
The reason why JRPGs are notoriously difficult to get right is because they try to do too many things at once. The game has to be balanced when you have 1 party member or 4 party members. It has to be balanced whether you’re fighting 20 enemies or just 1 boss enemy who gets 1/20th of the turns of the former group. It has to be balanced when all your party members know 1 skill at the start of the game and when they have 100 skills in endgame. It has to be balanced when you only have 2 potions in your inventory at the start of the game or when you have 10,000 potions in endgame. I think what JRPGs need to do is find the “sweet spot” and make that the whole game instead of trying to do everything. Like how Pokémon is balanced around exactly 6 vs 6, 4 skills per Pokémon, etc.

>>725382551 (OP)
Based as usual, big boy Blow. You know someone is based when everyone on /v/eddit hates them.

>>725382551 (OP)
>Twitter screen cap
>Literally just OP being a massive faggot

>>725382551 (OP)
True turn based is shit. If a boss can only get one turn for every 3-5 of yours then they can never truly be capable of whittling you down.

>>725393250
That's the dumbest shit I've read all day. Congrats.

>>725392254
Once you get old anything but turn based just becomes an insufferable grind.
JRPGs are the worst variant of turn based though.

>>725393434
Bosses having 2 or 3 turns has been around since the 80s.

>>725382551 (OP)
always funny people think videogames have to be skill based. especially in the case of shmups where the "skill" is memorization. A true randomized shmup would make them seethe i'm sure.

>>725387414
>he just exposes bad game design
lol
if you say so
jonathan blow is one of the progenitors behind the lame notion games that have to be 'uhrt' (art) and caused this disease to spread among western studios

>>725393434
>takes 4 actions before your atb gauges even start ticking

blow is the last person who should be talking about gameplay.

JAI WILL WIPE C++ OFF THE FACE OF TJE EARTH

>>725382551 (OP)
>40 year old losers tries to tell you what gamr is good for you and what game is bad for you.

>>725382551 (OP)
>jonathan blow
>hasn't blown his brains out yet

tragic

>John Blow being a retard again
>Other retards thinking JRPG stands for "turn based game"
Ban everyone ITT including me holy fuck

>>725387414
>NOOOO, YOU CAN'T JUST HIDE THE DESTRUCTIBLE BLOCKS.
Reminder that if you support Blow, Boghog, Mork or others "armchair" game design specialists, then you will destroy the future of video games.

>>725394117
I respect his programming views.
I don't care much at all about his views on gameplay or story. (the actual ones, not the ones that one clip-watching autist keep shitting out on here as if anyone cares)

>>725394415
Action rpgs are not jrpgs

>>725394467
Gaming has already been destroyed.

>>725382551 (OP)
>the goodness of the genre/game is defined by how many buttons you press per minute
That's such a weird take from a puzzle developer. I could understand if John Blowjob was some sort of a fightan/racing game guru but the guy is currently develping a sokoban.

Would Johnny Blow perform well on the hit game show “Idiotest”?

>>725385354
How? Botw is super easy...

>>725394763
multitudes of jrpgs are action based, jrpg does not mean wizardry clone, it means rpg made in japan

>>725382551 (OP)
>shmup fans
Who? It's not even elixir.

>>725393532
Why? The issues I listed are the cause of many common complaints about JRPGs.
>Your party falls apart if you lose even 1 member so let’s make reviving piss easy
>Stuns are OP against bosses so let’s make them useless
>Lets make it so it doesn’t matter if you have 100 skills since you just spam your best one anyways
>Lets make items useless otherwise they would be too strong since you can hoard them

Blowjohn is just one tier above Icycalm as far as I'm concerned

>>725385809
Yeah. Any real gamer knew that fixing JRPGs would just change it into something they aren't. Like games.

>>725395342
#1 is true and rpgs should remove mid-battle revives
#2 is often true but there are games that let you get off a turn of paralysis or something on a boss without it completely breaking the game. at worst there's old final fantasy which had like 5 stuns and you had to guess which will work
#3 is just shit design. smt would never
#4 is wrong. items usually completely break every game, especially good heals or mp restores

>>725395342
Turns out I can't fucking read. Never mind what I said and gomennasai.

>>725395516
JRPGs were originally made that way because it was the only way to make a grand scale game that could run on the hardware equivalent of a calculator.
JRPGs continued to be made that way because the Japanese government funded them because it groomed 90's and 00's children to equate staring at a boring screen of clicking through menus and options to prepare them for a future career as a salaryman who do the same thing.
Now that the wheels fell off their economy JRPGs only continued to be made out of sheer inertia and slowly saw them shift to action games instead while western devs picked up the slack and targeted the western audience who had inadvertently programmed themselves to enjoy the mundane task of "playing" a turn based RPG. Hence why the only people who like E33 are millennials/gen x losers who grew up with no friends and a copy of FFVII on a PS1.

>>725395342
All solved by SaGa games

>>725392254
I like chocolate cake, but if you fed me chocolate cake every meal for a week I'd try to kill you.
Food analogy I know, but the issue with turn-based combat systems is that they get very samey very fast compared to real-time ones since there's only so many variations. Tactical combat games are a lot better in this respect. Even the progenitor of the JRPG (Wizardry) was more about resource management over prolonged excursions into the dungeon rather than individual fights themselves; but nowadays games are made for braindead people who can't think ahead so anything that might result in a "soft lock" or a player giving up has been systematically removed from games.

Ultimately all games are essentially puzzles designed by the creators for the player to solve: turn-based ones only require you to change what moves you do in what order, while real-time ones also have the element of controller input. To solve a turn-based game you change your strategy; to solve a real-time one you either change your strategy OR execute your current one more skillfully OR a combination of both.

>>725382551 (OP)
>jarpiggies try to tell you their game is "better" than the other jarpigs
>the gameplay look like this tho

>>725387414
>there's like hardly any background foreground seperation
Yeah totally blowathan joeathan there's definitely no difference. Literally impossible to see what's part of the backgroynd in this image

>>725382551 (OP)
>Please vote arc raiders as GOTY
lmao

>>725395147
he doesn't understand basic mechanics and ignores tutorials, like jaffe

no wonder western games are in this absolute state when this is who develops them

>WRPG fags crying about JRPGs

you have all this free time to cry about the superior genre because you have no games

>>725396678
Where's the white outline telling you it's an interactable and not just a part of the platform?

>>725393250
>JRPG's
>Balanced

>>725387414
No, he is just an idiot.

>>725396768
>>725396848
What do Chaosfags have against cars?

>>725393250
>JRPGs try to do too many things at once
lole

>>725396678
oh that's why braid backgrounds are washed out sludge

I like turn based games and no amount of faggots telling why I shouldn't like them will cause me to stop liking them.

>>725387414
What is up with this generation of gamers and being completely unable to try stuff? They literally don't understand experimentation.

>>725396507
good post
i do think the tedium of jrpgs is often self-inflicted. way too many of them suffer from the classic "trash mobs die too fast to be worth debuffing but bosses are all immune to debuffs" meme, and way too many of them don't have any mechanical variety between trash mobs which would force you to change your approach between encounters. sure, turn-based games ultimately boil down to figuring out the optimal series of movies, but there's no reason the optimal series of moves should just be "always spam whatever does the most damage"

>>725393924
>A true randomized shmup would make them seethe i'm sure.
the shmup dev in the op literally added a roguelike mode in his shmup
and so did the puzzle dev with his puzzle game

>>725387414
The vine room Blow complains about has multiple hints to cut the vines. Those platforms are the only ones in the area with a diegetic reason for being suspended, rather than just floating on their own like other platforms. The diegetic reason in question, the vines, stand out from the background. The platforms are also the only ones in the area that move when you land on them, suggesting they aren't as steady as the others.
If all else fails, Team Cherry tries to have a retard-friendly method of forcing idiot players like Blow to discover they can cut the vines. Hovering around the first platform is a flying enemy positioned such that a player moving to attack it will cut the vine by pure accident. However, in the video where he complains about the vine, we can see that Blow is very bad at the game and thus plays very passively. He wastes a lot of time trying to bait the flying enemy over to him to attack, rather than simply jumping towards it at killing it in a fraction of the time it actually takes him

>>725397256
>this generation of gamers
Anon, he's 54 years old...

>>725397306
That's right

>>725397442
Yes and John Blow is 53

>>725382551 (OP)
>twitter posts aren't video games
Fixed that for you, cancerous faggot.

>>725382551 (OP)
nobody cares you retarded shill

>>725397256
Learned helplessness

>>725396110
Except action games predate turn-based ones.
This is the same utter horseshit repeated by pseuds about Fallout after Bethesda decided to make it Oblivion with Guns and directly repudiated by the original devs.

>cucks crying about losing goty
>jonathan blow thinking hes relevant in video game discussions in 2025

>>725382551 (OP)
>jonblowjob not being a faggot
what's this timeline

>>725397358
Exactly, almost always the optimal strategy for one group of mooks is going to be the same as the optimal strategy for every group of mooks. So the game isn't even serving you different puzzles it's just making you routinely put the same pieces in the same spots over and over.

One JRPG I played not too recently that I quite enjoyed was The Use of Life which has few fights and very delicate resource management/balancing; it made me try to avoid every combat encounter (even if it cost me some resource) rather than trying to fight head on and when I did eventually get into combat it made me act a lot more carefully and deliberately.

>>725397870
>>One JRPG I played not too recently that I quite enjoyed was
>QTE slop
INTO THE TRASH IT GOES

Baldurs gate 3 was a good turn based game with interesting gameplay elements. E33 was boring slop in terms of gameplay.

>>725398121
>Baldurs gate 3 was a good turn based game with interesting gameplay elements
No.

>>725382551 (OP)
>No one despises JRPGs more than JRPG fans
Umm? Where the fuck is he sourcing this? JRPG fans love the genre, it's action gamers like yourself that seethe at shit like kingdom hearts and tales of for being jrpg/action hybrids. If his sample size is the E33 audience then he is incredibly retarded

>>725398039
Fair. For something purely turn based then Ruina: Fairy Tale of the Forgotten Ruins or The Nameless: Slay Dragon would be the most Use of Life-like.

>>725398363
Why? It has tons of interactivity.

What's up with the constant chimpouts against turn based games? Jrpg this jrpg that, if you don't like the genre shut your fucking whore mouth.

>>725398479
Yeah, gayle can interact with your butthole.
larian geniuses couldn't even do proper Fly or Dispel

>>725398470
Those are both just standard JRPGs LARPing as tabletop games. Literally, a guided narrative with a fake DM talking you through the limited environments with occasional JRPG battles attached. Ruina is massively overglazed and isn't the gem rpgmaker sloppers make it out to be.

for me its DDS, the eating mechanic and how it ties to getting new mantras is peak game design

post good turn based games with cool gameplay, who cares about retards and fotm mainstream fotm stuff and fake discourse/'hot takes'

>>725382551 (OP)
Is Jonathan Blow the most miserable person in gaming? I don't think I've ever seen him post a happy thought.

>>725398520
>No, stop trying to improve things! We should all still be living in mud huts!

>>725398621
Not sure how that is a bad thing? cRPGs were created to emulate the feel of tabletop RPGs. At least in tabletop my GM doesn't throw 20 "kill these groups of goblins" fights in a row at me until I level up.

>>725398753
Atma points are just another source of XP gained in the same way: killing enemies. Having a devour skill to gain more doesn't make it any more interesting.

>>725398852
You don't know anything about jrpgs to improve it

>>725398520
some people get really offended that stuff like final fantasy is popular for some reason, it's the kind of relationship you have with that one neighbor you never interacted with but you assume he's an asshole

>>725398852
Okay big guy, how would you improve them?

>>725398852
which part of
shut your fucking whore mouth
did you not understand
?

>>725399103
>Having a devour skill to gain more doesn't make it any more interesting.
wrong, and i hope you get a stomach ache

>>725399103
ok, sure, and jumping is just momentary horizontal movement turned 90 degrees, having a jumping button doesn't make it any more interesting either I guess

>>725399417
I've not played DDS so I don't know if that anon was being needlessly reductionist but jumping means sacrificing horizontal movement for vertical which can have a variety of defensive/offensive benefits and detriments depending on the context of the game, having trade-offs makes it interesting.

>>725399103
see? this anon >>725399832
never even touched the game and he immediately gets it just by the concept alone

>>725398520
Entryist ruined a lot of JRPG series and are now upset that they might go back and become popularized among the japanese again.

>>725382551 (OP)
I thought Boghog was based, why is he shitting on turn BASED games? He clearly doesn't understand them.

>Jonathan Blow
He's not gonna cry again is he?

>>725400660
>I thought Boghog was based
sad to say but boghog has since completely lost the plot and all he does he try to rile up people on twitter for attention, another good one lost to the social media rot pipeline

>>725397256
you don't even need to experiment in the case of the vines because an early enemy in that zone is placed so that when you attack it, you will also cut a vine and thus learn that they can be cut

>I don't like it so it's not a game
Fully grown adults still argue like this?

>>725400660
So you do want a "skip combat" button?

>>725401323
As a matter of fact, yes. For reasons I don't need to explain here, my opinion holds more weight than everyone else's in this thread. If I don't personally like something, then it can be considered objectively bad. Likewise, if I personally DO like something, then it should be considered objectively good. That's all there is to it, and I'm sorry if you are somehow unable to comprehend it.

>>725400868
You hate to see it. Dude knows a lot about shmups I don't know why he's jumping into the JRPG discourse.

>>725382551 (OP)
I have anti-japan westoid fatigue

but jrpgs were already perfected

>>725395807
>#1 is true and rpgs should remove mid-battle revives
great, now you'll have to restart everyone your squishy white mage gets one-shot. fantastic design

>>725382551 (OP)
But my favorite games ares shmups, rhythm games, and jrpgs.

did turn-based fags ever manage to refute this?

>>725401356
The rest is whatever, but skipping encounters in zones where you massively outlevel the mobs is objectively a good idea for turn based games. Boghog framing that as some kind of "JRPG fans don't even want to play JRPGs!" gotcha take is incredibly dishonest. The dude is obviously only coming from a shmup background since he's a huge shmup autist, and I guess to him that sort of reads like "get rid of popcorn enemies in shmups" which would sound bad to him, but the two aren't comparable.

>>725402095
You're lucky I don't have the Etrian Odyssey webm, kid.

>>725400660
He's clearly saying he wants the games to remain turn based and not make fights skippable though

>>725402216
unironically what did he mean by this

>>725393250
Reasonable take, but pokemon is the worst example you could have picked.

>>725382551 (OP)
yes turd based faggots want their movie games to play themselves.

>>725382551 (OP)
>really good art direction
I enjoyed the game but it's honestly kinda ugly. If there's one thing that deserves to be praised it's the ludokino music.

>>725400660
bogs (and therefore morks) take on jarpig is that adding gimmick like rythm/parry inputs is shit but tactics jrpgs are gud

>>725391004
>he's criticizing the lack of ideas people have about them

Because you do not need to do much to make JRPG's more enjoyable. FF7R went too far by just making it a full action game with a ATB system while E33 did very simple changes that people have always complained about in the system.

>reduce items down to only the basic
>allow all characters to have a wide variety of builds
>make the combat more active in fights so it doesn't put you to sleep after the 10th hour

It is almost like JRPG fans do not want the general gameplay to change but want some modernization to the gameplay.

>>725385213
Truke

>>725396615
that looks cool

>>725382551 (OP)
I would never trust Jonathan Blow's opinion on any video game ever made because he's too stupid to play them.

>>725397634
The story and setting can be goat, but fallout 3 plays better and is more fun than whatever the original fallout would wish to be.
And for fucks sake, why the hell did they sell the damn game to a company making 3d WRPG if they wanted a 2d CRPG? Or did they forget how the games were a failure before bethesda and that's why they sold the IP?

>>725382551 (OP)
JRPGfags want their genre to stay simple and mindless. Having to do anything more than spam their strongest skills is too foreign a concept for them.

>>725401323
PPPD-481

>>725401980
good. play better

>>725382551 (OP)
ah yes jon blow, the retard who put a puzzle in his game where you slowly move your mouse while watching an hour long video about total nonsense, is complaining about a lack of gameplay. what a fag

Boghog is kind of right but also mischaracterizing JRPG fans. I don't think he's really dissing JRPGs. You can't really explain an improved JRPG system without
A. Being smart enough to come up with a system that's both novel and challenges the player enough, without being too annoying.
and
B. Making it interesting for the youtube mouthbreathers that give you clicks on videos

That's why every video devolves into "Uhhh.. just make like, Paper Mario style minigames when you battle!" It's not necessarily what everyone that plays turn based games wants. They mostly just want fun/good systems.

People that complain about JRPGs don't actually play them or simply don't like JRPGs. In either case, their opinions matter for naught. If you can't enjoy the majority of squaresofts library, you just don't like JRPGs. Accept it and shut the fuck up

Has anybody even beaten The Witness with how shit of a game it is

>>725402637
>E33 did very simple changes that people have always complained about in the system.
You mean like having to make strategies? Now you can just do a QTE to never die, what a great change.

>>725382551 (OP)
A way to fix JRPG is introduce more RPG mechanics
JA2 is the holy grail they should strive for.

>>725403791
That's not a new concept though

>>725403671
No one has ever been able to explain what makes the combat in Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger good and require thought from the player.

JRPGs are their own thing, they exist because people liked something born out of limitations, we have no reason to do JRPG combat in nonJRPGs, none, zero.

>>725403759
I'm surprised that Blow doesn't love jrpgs considering how fucking bloated with repetitive shit the witness is, you would think he was heavily inspired by the genre

>>725402216
>>725402426
>RACIST
Will make the guy super BASED

SaGa Scarlet Grace's battle system mogs 90% of all JRPGs and WRPGs but the rest of the game was made on a budget of 10 bags of rice.

>>725403993
no I think he meant NIGGER

>>725403934
>you have to convince me to like your game because............... you just have to okay!!
Hmm.. how about.. nyo

>>725397256
Mainstream games are so streamlined it's not usually worth it to experiement so you have an entire generation of gamers who were taught not to try.

>>725403934
>Final Fantasy
interesting status ailments and gimmicks like Zombie, Old, getting sucked into another dimension and shit along with fun character abilities like Jump, Cover, Learn etc making for fun varied combats
>or Chrono Trigger
nothing, chrono trigger sucks

>>725397431
Mr.Blow is the final boss for retard proofing game designers. You'd need to have an NPC by the ledge who says: "Oh no, I got myself trapped in here! If only someone would cut those vines down so I can get out!". The word "cut" would also need to be highlighted.

>>725403013
>Having to do anything more than spam their strongest skills
This is literally every genre because why wouldn't you use your strongest abilities.

>>725403759
I don't know if you can even really beat the game, I guess you can solve all the main puzzles and then a cage takes you back to the start

your precious parry slop is mediocre. the truth hurts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_c092KbKc

>>725403934
FF combat has never been that good. It's passable and FF games have (had) good production values. The main thing it does well is that everything feels good to do - the menus are usually responsive and have good sound effects, hit animations are satisfying, and outside of lengthy summon animations in the PS games, everything is really snappy. There are some interesting ideas in FF10 and to a lesser extent FF5 and 7 (though I think ATB holds them back). FF13 for all its faults actually has a fun battle system when it lets you finally play with all 3 party members.
I think turn-based/ATB FF in general would benefit a lot from stealing aspects of bravely default and saga, like the DEFEND command actually being useful and the way a lot of saga skills work (counter, interrupts, raising your guard before/after attacks, fucking with turn order, etc.)

>>725404474
Him and his ilk becoming an "authority" for newer developers in the early 2010s was the start of the slow death of mainstream Western development. We promoted our midwits to thought leaders and the decay is the result.

>>725404740
>30 minutes
>barely any views
Uh oh, the ZEITGEIST is against you, the PUBLIC doesn't pay attention, the truth is what they say it is.

Why are rebirthfags so buck broken by a new property doing well?

if you're too good at video games, you're a bad person

turn based RPGs understand this and expect you to enjoy the experience holistically

>b-but the gameplay is so advanced it won't be 'solved' for another dec-
ok is the music good? no? is any character memorable no? why construct the artifice of a story and world around it at all if it's merely a reflex honing tool in your mind? you lost the plot because you wanted to be competitive where you aren't supposed to be.

FFX >>>>>>>>>

>>725403934
In my personal thoughts, JRPGs are about resource management and attrition. When you come from an inn or rest point, there is an amount of distance that needs to be followed from start to end. Along this road, you will be prompted to fight at an unpredictable rate. Your thinking will need to be dedicated toward running the numbers in your head during combat as to what turns and actions you make and how they are expending expedition resources that may be needed for a future encounter. At my current level, can I scrape by on the heals, antidotes, unpetrifies that I currently hold? If I turn back now, can I survive the journey back out should I press onwards and gamble that my current situation will suffice for the boss I will face?

>>725405168
Then why isn't the gameplay ever designed holistically?

>>725405259
dont know what you mean but i'm sure you'll write an enthralling video essay about it with one of those gay little mics pointed at your mustache

RPGs aren't real games until they add combos and animation canceling

>>725405197
that reduces them to a slow slot machine
also the old games you're talking about used grinding as the main mechanic. you can have an abundance of resources if you just grind more

>>725406030
you reduce them to that in your mind with the way you decide to play*

Why does JRPG combat need to be "fixed"?
There's nothing wrong with turn based combat if the encounters are designed in a way that you need to adapt to enemies and can't win them all with the same strategy.
I played E33, SMTV and Trails in the Sky this year and E33 was my least favorite combat of these because of the active elements that completely messed up the balance of the game.
I guess some fun gimmick is needed tho or otherwise you get Dragon Quest combat which is so dry it puts me to sleep.

>>725406030
Grinding is fine as an answer for people that refuse to engage in the game's systems, or if you want to be more charitable, as a way to give a boost to people who aren't quite good enough to master the systems. The problem is those people often write game reviews and their main complaints are always "there's too much grinding".

>>725406030
>used grinding as the main mechanic
What games are those? Other than NIS srpgs I can't really recall a game that REQUIRED grinding.
I recently replayed Nocturne and I never had to grind for levels. I was even overleveled for a good part of the game because I tend to thoroughly explore all the dungeons.

>>725406145
Kind of true on both parts. I personally prefer some random chance in my games to give me something that I can crunch and chew on in my mind and then choose to gamble on according to the probabilities I end up producing. Grinding exists as a mechanism for the player to adjust the difficulty of the game according to taste. If you feel your probabilities are too dire, you can always go metaphorically pump some iron and come back a little stronger afterwards. Just as one can choose to climb a mountain with a plethora of comforts, supplies, back up plans and emergency contingencies, one can also climb the mountain with just themselves, some warm clothing and grit. Either method is valid and either method is a conscious decision made by the player. From there, any actual execution of combat is up to the game to cook up. You could literally have modifiable dice rolls here. The important part is macro level decision making and how much you the player want to influence it.

What JRPGs require as much brain activity as a Zachtronics game?

>>725407504
Last Remnant

>>725407335
>this
sadly /v/ is light years behind that conversation

>>725407401
I'll even add on here that this macro level attrition and world exploration design is what made me love the first DeS to DS2 because these games had this cooked up wonderfully. When DS3 and BB leaned far into boss movesets and big complex battles, it became more of a skill based action game which I think made it lose something. I liked souls games for giving me some good resistant enemies for my adventuring and exploring with a resource check at the end of a section

>>725382551 (OP)
>E33
>JRPG

>>725402936
>but fallout 3 plays better and is more fun
Opinion ignored. Retards go in the retard pile.

>>725403980
He likes puzzlers, action platformers and multiplayer fps games mostly from what I can tell.
>>725404832
Weirdly his actual programming views are anti-midwit as all hell and quite good. Basically "programming languages should be made to make it easy for domain experts to get work done and not force some gay ideology on you for VC funding". If he was just his programming views I would probably defend him in most of these threads.
But then his game design views have not impressed me at all and I mostly either don't agree with or find trite.
>>725403993
He's just a disillusioned centrist/centre-right guy. He does hold some based political opinions, like banning people who explicitly wish ill on America no matter the reason, thinking Berkley went to shit due to wokesters, mocking gamedev twitter/bluesky for being workshy whiners who get angry when new gamedevs post progress shots and he got his first AR15 after BLM rioting was condoned.

A lot of JRPG "difficulty" should come from preparedness. The whole point of these games is to explore and immerse yourself in the world. If you run straight to the ice dungeon to get to the next part of the game right away you SHOULD get one shot unless you grind 10 extra levels for your party. The reason for this is because you missed the shop owner telling you to buy cold weather gear, you missed the optional side quest to get the fire sword for your warrior, you didn't talk to the sick grandpa who tells you he fought the ice giants in the dungeon years ago and that they strangely lose attack if you hit them with ice spells. If you just want nothing but PURE COMBAT GAMEPLAY then play a level based action game.

>>725408062
Are you saying it's not? How do you define a JRPG?

>>725406716
Because most of the time it comes down to "hit with weakness", "buff then hit with weakness" and then "spam multistrike moves to get around the damage cap"

>>725406827
i'm talking about shit like dragon quest 1 where you reach portions of the game designed as "now grind to get strong enough to survive the next area"

>>725382551 (OP)
JRPGs are shit.
It's the same thing over and over. Every JRPG is some flavor of Dragon Quest and that's it.

>>725406827
I don't get why you faggots consider grinding not part of games. some parts become stat checks and there's nothing you can do
the main issue with JRPGs is difficulty hinges on the lack of knowledge
>tons of jobs and specialization options
>tons of useful consumable items
>distributable stat points
>all useless because you don't know whether it'll be useful in the long and andwho you're up against so you have to make sure you can face any enemies of any type that might come at you
on replays the game becomes piss easy because you know the techs that do the most damage at every point in the game, the enemy's type, attacks, and patterns, and can you exploit their weaknesses
the problem is completely unsolvable

>>725409063
>use fire attacks in the ice dungeon
>ice dungeon boss is fire type and one-shots your anti-ice party
congratulations, you played yourself

>>725382551 (OP)
And he made a generic jump from box to box game and occasionally avoid a hurt box.

>>725396615
whats the name of this game again?

>>725410190
Yeah that shit is gay. I don't think I've encountered it in any RPG I've played recently. I remember having to grind a bit in Chrono Trigger once but maybe I was just bad or skipping too many fights because I was an impatient kid.

>>725410908
Enchant Farm
It's actually fun

Videogames aren't good is the idea here. Good combat? I've never seen a good combat system in any videogame, ever. It's all just "deal X damage to Y enemy to proceed to the next area and so on and so on". This isn't fun. There's no goal to this. It's evil timewasting.

>>725411064
Then why are you here?
No, the generic "Well I'm just here to educate you all" troll post is played out and nobody believes it. Don't waste peoples time with that.

>>725410839
I like when they do that because it disincentivizes turning off your brain and punishes players for being unprepared. Especially if you're the kind of retard that sold all your fire protection equipment to buy the ice gear.

>>725382551 (OP)
How about leave JRPG combat design the fuck alone, it doesn't need to be changed to fit the mold of outsiders. Do I got into FPS threads asking for them to tone down the shooting elements or add QoL that lets me shoot things less? No, so fuck off.

>>725411198
Because I want to? Disco Elysium is the best videogame ever made and it has no combat system.

>>725410679
>the problem is completely unsolvable
>Hmm this guy isn't taking damage from fire
>Lets try ice. Nope
>Lets try wind. Nope
>Lets try dark. There we go
>Restart fight. Equip dark gear, use dark spells/attacks
Wow yes big problem completely unsolvable! They even made the Octopath games for retards like you. They prominently display the enemy weaknesses after you hit them with them once just in case you forgot which ones hit for more damage.

Persona 5 has unironically the best turn-based combat system ever made. I wish more games took inspirations from it instead of adding random action elements.

>>725382551 (OP)
>>725385213
>>725385354
>>725385357
Bullet hell isn't real Shmups.

>>725410679
This is a problem with all games with progression systems. See: all games with a bolted-on skill trees where only a handful of choices are any good.

>>725382551 (OP)
I'll give a shit about this retards opinion when he admits the language he can't afford to finish was a mistake.

>>725391413
Jaffe...

>>725411218
prepared for what moron? bait-and-switches are fake difficulty. why the fuck would there be a fire boss in the ice dungeon? it's not like you get to open the equip screen before the boss
anyway, that's all trivialized by reloading your save and re-specing before you set foot in the boss room

>>725411585
>savescumming
YOU DIDN'T BEAT THE GAME

>>725410450
>>725382551 (OP)
>>725403013
>JRPG haters are on the same IQ level as Jonathan Blow

There's certainly an exposure going on here alright...

>>725389173
Now say it without mork scrotum in your mouth

>>725412307
>prepared for what moron?
Prepared for the fire boss of course. Did you miss the lore book in the library that said the ice boss was actually a fire demon who took control of the arctic cave? Sounds like someone is bad at video games!

>>725412587
It's /v/ what did you expect

>>725412307
>Ice dungeon boss is an unexpected fire elemental
>Use a turn for each character to regear yourself to match his attacks/weakness right in the battle menu
The best RPG franchise already solved this back in the flash era.

>>725412967
>regear in battle
sorry, I don't play games for fucking retard pansies
btw restarting and reloading your save is an admission that you suck at video games

>>725411674
i like a lot of it but the baton pass buff stacking is retarded and the game just lets you do so much damage that you're almost never forced to think
also the story bosses are almost all ass

>>725404474
Which is wild when you play The Witness. Literally none of that shit anywhere, the only way you get taught anything is by extensively fucking around with your limited toolset (exactly what you'd have done to figure out that vines can be cut in Hollow Knight). I think he just doesn't operate very well outside his wheelhouse.

>>725413115
EBF is based and you're a gay retard for even jokingly calling it bad.
Also I don't reload. I tough it out and if I die I learn from my mistakes on my next try. I've never reloaded in my life unless you count me busting my load twice on your mom's face last night.

>>725411396
So many people have trouble accepting that they just don't like something and think that it's the subject and not them thats the issue at hand

bog is pretty correct tho right? like if so-called jrpg fans actually enjoyed the idea of abstracted menuing decision-making gameplay they would suggest improvements along those lines but generally they don't.

i guess a question would be: what does good rpg gameplay look like? what would an iteration on the formula entail?
like i think of crystal project as an rpg i thought was quite excellent, but its gameplay improvements as far as the direct menuing combat is concerned were not that original. threat mechanics. job system. every final fantasy job in the book in one game. two different resource bars mana and action points (trails had this first). subclassing and subskills (etrian). the menuing combat was just 'everything but the kitchen sink' done particularly well.

where crystal project elevated things was adding platforming gameplay to a jrpg world, but certainly this is a more peripheral element in bog's terms. yet it's a very nice additional peripheral element that i feel marries well with the menuing combat...

>>725416449
jrpg players would be less resistant to change if the ones suggesting them weren't anti-japan action-slop loving casual retards
it's like leaving balancing in puyo puyo to retards who can't pull off anything beyond a 2-chain

>>725416540
where are the intelligent suggesters? where are the high-level jrpg players who have discussions on how to advance the genre? where does that exist?

maybe it's on /vrpg/?

>>725416449
Sometimes games don't need huge sweeping changes to their core systems to make them "improved". Sometimes you just need to make good versions of those existing systems. Nobody looks at an FPS and says "Hmm.. This is good but how do we make the pointing and clicking part better?"

>>725382551 (OP)
i don't get it because he's making a sokoban game. sokoban is inherently turn based and even if he adds some gimmicky realtime mechanics that would just be the same as e33's "press the button at the right time to block the thing"
i like his games so i truly don't understand how he's so retarded when it comes to anything gaming-related

>>725416698
sure. describe what a good version of the existing systems would be then. i think look outside is a pretty competent jrpg gameplay-wise for example. it's doing nothing original but what it's got it does well gameplay wise.

>>725396283
Came here to post this

>>725403671
>posting a horse whore talking about jrpgs

Weebs are retarded guess you just want to show off the shitty art of this whore?

>>725416851
I like how none of these are actually good lmao literally just fighting jpeg images of enemies the entire game. No actual animations and the story is uninspiring

>>725385362
This is an NPC opinion, good JRPGs are for people who like to use their imagination to go on an interactive adventure, sometimes with an emphasis on tactical battle planning, sometimes with an emphasis on the actual thrill of going on an adventure with a team. To a robotic NPC this is just a series of numbers to raise as they soullessly go through their lives without imagination or pleasure, driven by animal instincts and social pleasures to achieve things to please those around them. Shmups and puzzle games are also great and useful for different ways to use your brain and have fun, but they are both real video games that provide a potentially valuable experience.

>>725382551 (OP)
I think a lot of people understate the conditions system in e33 and each characters is different.
weapon properties are also way different than I've seen in any other game. in most games you just pick the highest attack value or maybe the one that has a good elemental weakness, but e33 you'll pick a weapon for very specific builds and multiple are viable.

>>725417942
not him but puzzle games suck because they have no tutorials that help you get better
like, to get good at tetris you have to autistically study forms and shit like donation, STSD, DTC, openers, 4-wides, etc. if it weren't for wikis put together by autists it would be impossible to even dream of playing the game

>>725387414
he'd have a point if he was talking about the darksouls like illusory walls. in dark souls most are pretty inconsequential but HK hids big areas behind them with zero indication they exist at all

>>725412967
matt is immesurably based for doing away with mana altogether in EBF5

>>725418502
>to get good at tetris you have to autistically study forms and shit like donation, STSD, DTC, openers, 4-wides, etc.

>>725418653
>he hasn't ever played competitive guideline tetris
you're not even worth talking to

>>725418502
....You need a wiki to play Tetris? Are you mentally damaged?

>>725416851
These are good, but the class/skill system has some serious flaws.
>>725417727
>muh story and animations
>>/tv/

>>725396678
would be easier to see with yellow painted

>>725418982
Nigger, the only thing you need to learn for competitive Tetris is rolling. Everything else is practice.

>>725382551 (OP)
E33 does not have good art direction. I played a few hours and remember being pissed off at this ugly outdoor region area that's bright as shit for no reason. It does not feel like a carefully crafted believable world.

>>725419005
>has some serious flaws
such as?

>>725418996
see >>725418982
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErU9yJ6KxrY
refrain from posting if you don't know shit

>E33 paid this much for "Game Of The Year"
>Still paying for 30 threads a day to try and make people act like it's amazing or that people that find the violent overshilling of this crap annoying
Raid shadow legends ass garbage.

>>725382551 (OP)
Wish I could refund Braid, but it's been over two weeks, steam refund was rejected

>>725419693
>muh /pol/ bogeyman
dilate

>>725382551 (OP)
JRPG gameplay peaked with Dragon Quest 3 and there was no need to ever elaborate on it. Every addition just removes the elegance.

>shitter screencap
nigger.

>>725382551 (OP)
I hate JRPGs because they all feel extremely samey but I also just think I'm not a JRPG guy (though I have enjoyed a few, E33 is not one of them). These guys are faggots.

>What are the game parts of ARC Raiders?
>proceeds to explain the game parts

>>725420072
>t. guy who only played draque 3

>>725419650
The games punish experimentation by making point resets cost levels and new party members start at level 1.This is amplified by skills not being equal and the games hiding a lot of information about them. You either look stuff up online, or if you play blind, you're incentivized to avoid anything that strays from a bog standard party. These flaws are particularly bad in the original EO1 and gets toned down in subsequent releases, but never fully go away.

>>725421468
he's saying the parts he described are more peripheral elements of a game than the actual meat. like appetizers. the vegetables. where's the entree. bot fights are not the entree.

>>725403202
Only good post here
Thanks

>>725382551 (OP)
>Litteraly who normalfags on twatter hate turn-based games
Fire is hot! Water is wet!

mork bros...

WTF, the turn-based combat is so ass. Why doesn't this shit game add some timed hits?

>>725420072
Only someone who has never played any JRPGs, including DQ3, would say this.

Can someone give me a good JRPG that came out in the past 10 years? Note: for it to actually be good, it must fit the following criteria:

>it cannot have more than 5 minutes of cutscenes total in the entire game.
>no voice acting
>no tranime
>no sex pandering
>no cinematic QTEs or attacks that are just glorified cutscenes
>no meme characters (IE moogles or nopons)
>it must be actually difficult (at no point are you ever allowed to win a fight because muh love and friendship)

>>725422543
Just play Dragon Quest 1 at that point.

>>725382551 (OP)
ugh, man in tv box say thing good, me also say thing good

tv box man say other thing bad so me think so too...

>>725422543
The answer to this and every question is Phantasy Star II.

>>725385213
/fpbp

1. who the fuck is shroud?
2. what's it gonna take to embarrass jonathan blow off of twitter?

>>725422963
I hoped this day would never come...but there's only one man with the power to make more insufferable tweets than Blow...
Release the Fish, and may God help us all.

>>725423708
Maybe he's matured since his big meltdown.

...But probably not.

>>725423708
DJ Fish sticks is retired... but maybe he can come back for one last job...

I love this. Americans think the West (Europe) are better than the Japanese. Finally do make a game that is vastly more impressive than the JP titles released in many years. ABSOLUTELY FUCK IT UP by not rewarding this significant achievement because they are a bunch of sheep listening to Streamers. I am laughing. This is why Xbox died because you are all fucking retarded.

>>725424117
I'm why Xbox died? Glad to be of service.

>surname is Blow
>he actually blows

>>725385213
/thread

>>725403934
FF is literally the potentialman of turn based games where they took three steps forward 1 step back for the first 6 games then just twiddled their thumbs making comic book movies with slightly more or less nuanced skill learning systems and no real changes instead until they fell off a cliff and everyone went separate ways

>>725382551 (OP)
They're right

>>725382551 (OP)
on field encounters are based but modern devs are too pussy to make them anything more than a visual representation of "do you want to do battle y/n?" wizardry: tale of the forsaken land had roaming enemies back in 2001 that would start chasing you and if they touched you from the back you had your rows flipped. and you can go even further back to 92 when romancing saga had your 3 row formation skew based on whether you engaged battle head on or if monsters touched your sides/back. these games had their own field minigames where you had to manage your positioning and do constant risk assesment, like do I try to maneuver past enemies risking a disadvantageous battle or just do battle head on and burn resources but safely. compare that to modern slop like smtv where same systems exist on paper but devs undertune it so hard that it becomes a joke and a punching bag for rpg haters.

>>725389173
>The dude is a philosopher of hardcore gaming
>cheats
>steals talking points
>refuses to clear games before review
>will personally drop off console so he looks good with MN unlocked
He is /ourguy/

>>725411585
Enchant Farm solved this as well just by stealing Pokemon's type chart and prominently displaying effectiveness any time you highlight the enemy. They're even nice enough to let you know at the beginning of a fight the kinds of ailments bosses will be immune to so you don't waste your time trying them.

>>725382551 (OP)
>people think they're elite gamers because they've cranked the difficulty of what would be otherwise an interactive cutscene in proper game
shmup players are weird

>>725387414
HK had a few flaws but this is just retarded. the biggest issue with HK is it gives you wayy too much right off the bat. they should block off access to most of the map at first and you unlock it bit by bit as you get new abilities, like metroid. in HK you can usually access all but 1 pathway in each zone. it's boring trekking back and forth across the same area with nothing new to explore. in metroid when you explore the same area again it's recontextualized with all the new shit you've gotten since you've been there last. in HK there's like 1 or 2 new things in an area max

>>725385213
They'll genuinely rope out when it sweeps the awards

>>725409724
>everybody favourite retard-friendly walking sim from like 2013 had a route based on the yellow line joke
>fast forward 10 years...

>>725385213
this applies to palworld shills too

>>725419005
>dude imagine caring about story or visuals or anything that isn't fucking game theory problem solving
>wizardry had it right all along, fuck those japs and their casualizations like DQ
ever wonder why dungeon crawlers are sometimes put into their own category, different from J and C and W?
then again get rid of the main artist guy and his lolis and EO's sales will plummet into the negatives

they're completely right but thats not why people play jrpgs

>>725385651
He's a programmer. To them, everything upstream of minecraft belongs in a museum.