Let us discuss the Shoot Them Up genre.

What pad/stick are you currently using? Any controllers you have your eye on?
Just got this off ebay for a great price. Bit scuffed and without the box/USB cable, though. I haven't had good experience with 8bitdo in the past, but am quite keen to try out this style of dpad after using an arcade stick and SNES pad to play shmups since forever. Might try and play Tekken or Street Fighter as well.

Did Shitty Connection ever fix the Switch Psykio ports, or are they still laggy as fuck

What's a good shmuproidvania?

>>11828539
Guardian Legend and Sigma Star Saga are the only two I can think of.

>>11828539
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1634860/Minishoot_Adventures/

>close eyes
>see swirling fluorescent bullet patterns

Recommend me shmups where you're not a ship or a magic girl

I've played Kolibri, Agony, Saint Dragon and Dragon Spirits

why are there so many of these games? if you've played one you've basically played them all

>>11828802
Whats that capcom western one, GUN.SMOKE?

Is Clast still the best in the west?

>>11828802
Grange and Outzone are two very good "playing as just a dude" shmups
I guess you can pick a girl in Guwange but one of the characters is literally a 30 year old chad
Here's OPs pic scaled for human eyes

>>11828819
Because they were and still are easy to produce, and different companies give them different twist to the same formula. Which ones did you played so far?

>>11828870
Grange > Guwange*. Forgive me for phoneposting moot-sama

>>11828514
They're still laggy as fuck. Just stick with MAME
Here's a rompack with ShmupMAME: archive.org/details/shmupg-pack
And a more modern one with a different ui, a better MAME version and with more shmups that gets frequently posted on the /v/ threads: https://archive.org/details/mature-dot-dodging-games-gaiden-v-1.0.7z

>>11828802
In the Hunt for tactical submarine action.

Brave Blade for mech. Cybattler is also a much more flawed early example.

Chariot from 3 wonders is rly good.

>>11828874
just off the top of my head, the ones that stand out are 1942 (and sequels), xevious, dodonpachi, ikaruga, radiant silvergun, promare, r-type (two or three of them), gradius (two or three), battlemania, lords of thunder, air zonk, triggerheart exelica, mushihimesama, and the one on Game Boy Camera.

>>11828502 (OP)
what a JAY PEG

Is super contra 3 a shmup? Or do shmup only count as shmups if they constantly autoscroll?

>>11829323
Super Contra 3 is a Run n' Gun. This thread is about vertical-scrolling and horizontal-scrolling shooting games

>>11829353
the fuck? you shoot things. it's a shmup.

>>11828802
Wings of Wor!

>>11829359
All run and guns are arguably horizontal shooters

>>11829359
Behold, a shmup!

>>11829386
>contra
>a game in which you do nothing but shoot things
>Zelda
>a game is which a couple of items can be used to shoot things
yeah, those are the same

>>11829359
The term shmup exists to differentiate those specific games and avoid confusion, since using “shooters” is only coined to FPS nowadays, and STG (Shooting Game) is very niche and weeb.

>>11829495
a first person shmup is still a type of shmup though.

Idk what the grammatical term is but the literal meaning of shmup and the thing it actually represents have massively diverged. Only a troll or someone who is a total outsider to the community can ignore it.

>>11828802
Insector X, Biohazard Battle, and Phelios on genesis

>>11829623
Insector X is based, Famicom version is a cute em up, in stark contrast to the Genny.

>>11829353
Run n gun very much is a subgenre of shoot em up
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoot_%27em_up#Run_and_gun

>>11828502 (OP)
They are called STG (Shoot The Gun)

No - FIGs (Fake Interest Games)

>>11829623
>Biohazard Battle
Pure kino. Any other games with a similar aesthetic?

>>11829593
Don't care, I call them "shooters" or "spaceship shooters".

Best modern Raizing worship?

>>11828514
The PS4 versions are fine

What game did you clear last?
What clear are you working on now?
What do you plan to try and clear next?

>>11829809
>They are called STG (Shoot The Gun)
The Japanese coined the term STG, it's short for Shooting Game.

>>11830196
>What game did you clear last?
Devil Blade Reboot

>What clear are you working on right now?
Alternating between Deathsmiles and Blue Revolver based on mood

>What do you plan to try and clear next?
Cotton Rock n Roll

>>11830196
>What game did you clear last?
R-Type. Overrated, honestly.
What clear are you working on now?
Gunvein. Good game.
What do you plan to try and clear next?
SDOJ. Haven't played it before.

>>11830196
>What game did you clear last?
Ketsui 1-all through 2-2 Omote
>What clear are you working on now?
Maybe reaching Ketsui's 2-5 Omote
>What do you plan to try and clear next?
Mushi Ultra 1cc

>>11830196
>What game did you clear last?
Gunbird 1-ALL

>What clear are you working on right now?
Ketsui 1-ALL

>What do you plan to try and clear next?
Asides from still working on Ketsui, I'd like to try my hand at a DOJ WL 1-ALL or Rayforce

>>11830258
>Ketsui 1-ALL
Congrats. Nice work anon

I want to play shmups but I despise gameplay that revolves around smashing a single button as fast as possible. If they were just dodging with minimal shooting it would be a lot more comfy.

>>11830404
you might really like Ikaruga

>>11829359
Are you dumb?

>>11830404
Undertale belongs on >>>/v/

>>11830404
Maybe on an arcade where you have a big button you can smash it would be better but on a controller these games kill my fingers.

>>11830396
Thanks, I'll keep grinding the game. While I was derusting I keep getting a pretty consistent Stage 4 and 5, so I might be able to reach 2-5 soon (My pb is 2-4)
Have some clips
https://streamable.com/ycop9t
https://streamable.com/fyj0w8

>>11830404
99% of games have autofire
the 1% that don't, you can configure a turbo button in retroarch

>>11830424
>retroarch
disgusting

>>11830424
>99% of games have autofire
I can't speak for other platforms but 90% of the NES games with autofire penalize you with a slower rate of fire than what you'd get through button rape, and that higher rate of fire often translates to drastically easier stages.

>>11830450
just set up turbo in retroarch

>>11830404
Every single modern shmup has auto-fire, except gimmicky shit like Star Gagnant. All the newer ports of older shmups will have an option to toggle it on - clears are considered legitimate using auto-fire. You have no excuse, anon.

The Full Intent of the Clam.

Trying to learn how to Shmup, fellas. I don't quite understand what MarkMSX means when he says to consider 'time' as a 3rd dimension of STGs? Is that meaning that because all of the bullets will always move off the screen eventually, so you are moving into future spaces where bullets will eventually (usually within less than a second) not be?

>>11830730
IDK about that mark guy but what you're describing is an important skill, the crimzon clover dev described it as "put yourself in a position where no bullets will hit you" and "if you're actively dodging, you did something wrong" or something like that

Autofire is just a free drama well for people who like that sort of discussion.

Truth is the issue was solved for years. Modern autofire is heavily configurable. There are virtually no exceptions as you'd have to first limit yourself to physical and then also be playing some obscure shit.

>>11830730
What he's describing is a real skill but not something to be forced. If you try to play around this vague idea of moving in advance you'll just give yourself brain drain and get frustrated. Play like 50 shmups and you will learn this naturally.

1 skill that you do benefit from keeping in the back of your head is bombing (or using whatever else the game gives) instead of trying to do impossible dodges. After a bit you also memorize this but its genuinely easier if you keep reminding yourself.

The last stage in Deathsmiles is such a difficulty spike with suicide bullets. They are so fast you can't see them coming when something gets behind your small familiar. I get more score without suicide bullets, because they I can actually survive. The suicide bullets should at least give more points. They barely do anything apart from killing you. You get more hyper meter, but I get the same amount of hypers without suicide bullets, and linking hypers is way too difficult.

>autofire
you didn't beat the game.

>bombs
you didn't beat the game

>>11830730
Sort of? But yeah the idea is that you should be looking ahead and placing yourself where the space between bullets is going to be instead of dodging at the last second. You don't always need to keep your eyes directly on your ship either, practice getting comfortable using your shot to keep track of where you are further down the screen.

Another thing you'll want to get comfortable with that will pay dividends is the concept of "bullet streaming". You'll notice when you're practicing that certain enemy shots go all over the screen and some are targeted to move directly towards you. Bullet streaming is positioning yourself to where the aimed shots will miss you and keep yourself in the safe zone.

If you're looking for games that specifically do a good job of teaching these lessons and give you concrete things to practice with no guesswork, I cannot recommend Blue Revolver or Gunvein highly enough. The practice modes and missions are super helpful

>>11830915
That's just Cave in general, though. Last stage of Futari is an insane difficulty spike too.

>>11829359
God I hate children more every time I come here.

Are shmups the most honest video game genre?

How many frames of lag do you consider unplayable when it comes to survival play in a shmup?

>>11832318
only if you play SEGA's Carnival exclusively

>>11830258
ok now do the nds version on doom mode.

>>11832328
Like 6 but ymmv. 5 is pushing it. Radiant silvergun on beetle saturn is 5 and it's sluggish but workable, atleast in that particular game. Zeroranger on steam is 2, and with a decent monitor is sublime.

>>11832856
oh like you could even tell the difference between 2 and 5 frames. that's like 50 milliseconds. not a chance you can actually perceive a difference without knowing ahead of time which game has how much lag
lagfags are delusional

>>11832859
You obviously cannot see it, but you can definitely feel it.

ZeroReddit

>>11832874
oh bite me. you're saying 6 is bad and 5 is acceptable like you can actually tell a 16.67 millisecond difference. fuck outta here.

>>11832318
Rhythm games and puzzle games are the most honest.

>>11832891
It gets more noticeable the more frames there are
It's hard to tell 2 frames from 3 frames but you can tell 5 frames from 6 frames

>>11830450
Have you experienced the professional feel of real arcade play?

bombs are cool

>>11828507
Keyboard

Awesome

>>11828539
Minishoot Adventures but not retro

>>11828802
coryoon and air zonk
dragon saber of course
side arms
any shooter with a plane

>>11832859
>>11832891
It is not hard to perceive the difference at 3 frames
If I press a 10 frame move vs 13 frame move in Tekken, the visual/sound effects of it hitting very distinctly happen at a different time

This is so good
Compile made far and away the best games of their time

>>11828802
Elemental Master

>>11829386
Someone should make a shmup alignment chart

>>11833281
I had that when I was a kid and the highlight of Ghostbusters 2 was seeing one used to pilot the Statue of Liberty
>>11828502 (OP)
I played Zero Wing (of “all your base are belong to us” fame) in an emulator. I got to the end with massive amounts of savescumming*, and there was a part where I had to be super duper accurate to get by a bunch of moving tiny pillars.
Was it a good game? Was it fair?
*I am not claiming to have beaten it

>>11829593
I had a friend who used bullet hell interchangeably with shmup. I tried to explain it to him but he's one of those people who is always sure he's right

>>11835438

>>11835923
While funny, autoscroll is a genre requirement.
So games like Space Invaders and Galaga are proto-shoot em ups, Defender is not(though obviously not too far removed).

Name the top 5 most beautiful looking retro shmups

>>11835932
Cotton Boomerang
Mushihimesama
Deathsmiles
Armed Police Batrider
Harmful Park

>>11830404
just play cave games.
the dopamine of watching 1000 explosions simultaneously and the game slowing down can never be quite matched by other games.

>>11835923
Sweet, thanks!
…what’s twisted about Ikaruga?

>>11828539
AM2R

>>11836008
>…what’s twisted about Ikaruga?
It aims to be played pretty differently when you compare it to other traditional shooters. Ikaruga focuses more on scoring, highlighting its consistency and demanding routes of chaining combos and absorbing bullets in certain specific orders, mostly by not shooting at everything at once and focusing on a more cautious and precise play style; as a consequence, playing Ikaruga like any other traditional shmup, ignoring even the combo system feels “weird” and incomplete.

>>11832891
There has to be a cutoff point. Mine is 6 frames. If you can tell the diff between 5 and 6 then fine, but people who act like they can't tell any difference between 2 and 8 baffle me. Atleast when it comes to action games.

>>11836284
*can't
Fuggin phone posting rn

>>11836284
Agree, I don't notice a 1f difference but 3 frames is my personal line where I can tell something is up (and have always been right when I look into it)

>>11830835
100% agree with the top part of your post (second part too but), it's entirely a tourist topic too. Just old after 20 years of being a non-issue
I'm still so bad at forcing myself to bomb. I need to go play Donpachi or something where I just have a fucking arsenal. I've been playing DOJ for the last 2 weeks and the Expert ships having 1-2 bombs is not helping the matter either kek

>>11828802
>>11829623
i like Biohazard's style but it was 2hard4me.
magic grills are cool though.

>>11829873
literally can't think of anything else. games with absolute bizarro alien designs are pretty rare.

>>11835923
im Smash TV. so i am a shooter communist?

>>11835923
>no "Star Fox 64 is a shmup"
lame. it is by the way.

>>11836817
What else would it be?

>>11836828
"le rail shooter" according to some

>>11836832
I guess but are rail shooters not a subgenre of shmup? They're obviously intended to be the same thing but in 3D

>>11828502 (OP)
>Billions must be shot up

>>11836863
>I guess but are rail shooters not a subgenre of shmup?
They are, but Star Fox is still excluded for being plebshit. Like how Pokemon is excluded from JRPG spaces.

>>11828507
I love my M30. I have no issues with it and use it regularly.

Can anyone rec any SHMUPs where you play as a cute girl? Pic related.

>>11838116
Bug Princess!

>>11838116
the Cotton series.

and if you're a "structure neutral" contraman >>11835923 , then the Valis series.

I work in a hospital and it just got a free-play aecade machine. It has a few basic stgs like Xevious and 1943/1943 Kai. Should I reveal my power level during my smoke breaks?

>>11838116
Not /vr/ but Hazelnut Hex is quite good if you want something a little more modern.

>>11836070
>playing Ikaruga like any other traditional shmup, ignoring even the combo system feels “weird” and incomplete.
Playing Ikaruga doesn't feel incomplete at all. The game is geniusly designed. I had a lot of fun playing through hard mode for survival. It's like R-Type where every enemy encounter is like a little puzzle and you have to find savespots to survive, except Ikaruga also requires you to score along the way in order to get extends.

The game is a classic shmup mixed with modern shmup design, which is why people love it. Studios like Cave or Psikyo only pandered to a small niche, ie hardcore players and otaku. Classic shmups didn't really do this.

>>11830404
Emulate or play console ports.

>>11836070
If anythign feels incomplete to play, then it's Cave. Cave games have such weird scoring systems, that they feel like empty shells when playing for survival. The scoring in Deathsmiles is so random and convoluted, that even if you play it for score, you don't even really understand the system behind it. And when you just play for survival, the game feels empty and too easy.

Ikaruga is really good at making clear what the player has to do to get a good score. That's why it feels satisfying to do combos in it. Cave games don't really do this. In Cave you are never really sure what you should do, because the scoring systems are so convoluted, that the mechanics in them always clash with each other, and you are never sure what you should do, unless you autistically try out things and compare numbers. Ikaruga has a simple and clear, but deep and elegant scoring system.

>>11839420
>And when you just play for survival, the game feels empty and too easy.
Perhaps the fact that it's the easiest CAVE game by a wide margin has something to do with this.

>>11839430
It's not so much about the difficulty, but more about the playstyle. Cave games are so scoring focused that they become boring when playing for survival. It's just shoot and move then, like in Mushihimesama. Crimzon Clover was like this too. Your ship is so powerful in it that you barely have to move in the first levels when not scoring, because your shot goes across the whole screen.

Games like Ikaruga or Radiant Silvergun don't have these overpowered bullet hell ships with shots going across the whole screen, plus they also don't really have a bomb button. Which is why they still interesting to play, even when not scoring much. Cave games are focused on hyper-competition pandering to a small niche, while traditional shmups are more focused on fun.

>>11839430
>Perhaps the fact that it's the easiest CAVE game by a wide margin
It's also the only fair cave game. Usually playing Cave just devolves into bullet hell dodging, because the games are basically impossible to clear unless you really study every pattern in the game. DDP, DOJ, Ketsui, etc, they have such brutal 2nd loops that it's not even fun to just play them for survival. The TLB is always a complete resource dump, which means you can only clear the game when you are already very good at it. There are no real "survival routes" in these games. Either you score in them and point blank everything as fast as possible, or you get overwhelmed with bullets or lose to the TLB due to lack of resources.

Ikaruga doesn't do this. In Ikaruga you can strategically pick out survival routes while still playing a bit for score to get extends, similar to Battle Garegga

>>11828802
Apidya is a groovy but weird as fuck shmup where you play as a man who turns to a bee and upgrades his bee parts during each new lvl.

The music is techno as hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57YNerorom8

>>11839435
Movement being almost strictly a defensive option in survival play is definitely undesirable, and that's something that CAVE really struggled with. The "narrow" shot option in a lot of their games is still ultra-wide (the narrowest shot type in Mushi having half-screen coverage by the end of stage 2 is a really funny example). I think DOJ's A-EX should have been the baseline that all of their games were balanced around. The shot width has a reasonable ~25% screen coverage, and the limited bombs make the game a lot more engaging.

Otherwise, I mostly disagree with your post.

>>11839448
>It's also the only fair cave game.
I'd say pretty much every CAVE game is "fair" insofar as virtually everything that's happening on screen is either static or a direct response to your inputs, and what RNG is present is fairly minimal. If by "fair" you mean "reasonable for a casual player to succeed in", Galuda 1, Mushi, Futari, and DFK also squarely fall into that category. The aforementioned titles are all easier than Ikaruga and Garegga by a fair bit.

>Usually playing Cave just devolves into bullet hell dodging, because the games are basically impossible to clear unless you really study every pattern in the game.
That would be why most people who like them, like them, yes.

>The TLB is always a complete resource dump, which means you can only clear the game when you are already very good at it.
This is a somewhat fair critique of CAVE's TLBs. I say somewhat, because they're not pure resource checks. Even with a good number of lives, they still pose a challenge to experienced players.

>There are no real "survival routes" in these games.
I imagine you'll contest this based on the vague qualifier 'real', but virtually all low-scoring 2-all videos serve as examples of survival routes. Here's an example of a clearly survival oriented DOJ 2-all that you could copy to get your own clear if you were so inclined: https://youtu.be/I69g-sFSoC8

>Either you score in them and point blank everything as fast as possible, or you get overwhelmed with bullets
I don't usually like saying things like this, but this comment makes me feel like you have very little experience with the genre.

>>11839485
>Movement being almost strictly a defensive option in survival play is definitely undesirable, and that's something that CAVE really struggled with.
Yea, they are dodging games, not really shooting games. Originally you needed a lot of precision to shoot enemies in shmups. If you compare the gameplay of Ikaruga with oldschool games like Space Invaders for example, you actually can see a lot of similarities. And yet, Cave fans say Ikaruga is not a real shooting game, while in reality it#s Cave which deviates from the norm.

>>11839526
>I don't usually like saying things like this, but this comment makes me feel like you have very little experience with the genre.
Prove me wrong. I'm talking about DDP, DOJ, Ketsui 2alls. If you don't really play DOJ for score, you get less hypers, use more bombs, kill enemies later (meaning they spawn more bullets). I haven't really played these particular games, but to me they are silly. It's just over the top try-hard difficulty. It's not really fun to learn them anymore, it's just trying to be as difficult as possible. Shmups never have been just about the difficulty. They were about fun problem solving. But Cave makes it so difficult that even real masters at the game still have real problems clearing them consistently, because they just put resource dump TLBs in it.

>>11839526
>Mushi, Futari
I've cleared Mushi Original mode, but it wasn't anything satisfying. I feel you only really cleared Mushi when clearing Ultra mode, because that mode has the TLB. Noone cares about Mushi Maniac clears. Only Ultra mode feels like beating the game, and the Ultra mode in these games are just as silly as DOJ 2all.

>>11839529
>Yea, they are dodging games, not really shooting games.
I think this is a fair statement as far as survival play is concerned.

>And yet, Cave fans say Ikaruga is not a real shooting game
I don't think most people who like CAVE actually think this.

>while in reality it#s Cave which deviates from the norm.
Both CAVE and Ikaruga deviate from tradition in fairly large ways. Arguing over which one is "truer" is kind of silly.

>>11839542
>Prove me wrong.
Well, simply put: point blanking is just not something that's very common in CAVE (outside of Ketsui, due to the chip system). You'll see in the survival clear I posted that the player spends very little time point blanking. Somewhat arbitrarily, here's stage 2-3 of the former world record: https://youtu.be/bS_FtpqJ9vc?t=1552
Again, you'll see that very little time is spent point blanking. Bear in mind, DOJ is one of the more point-blank heavy CAVE games. Even so, it's still used sparingly. So the dichotomy that you presented in your earlier post - "score and point blank or get overwhelmed with bullets" - is false in both score and survival play. It's not necessary, or even the most efficient strategy in either.

>But Cave makes it so difficult that even real masters at the game still have real problems clearing them consistently, because they just put resource dump TLBs in it.
Issues with TLB design aside, I don't think this is a bad thing. They're just not for you. It's unfortunate that they dominate discussions as much as they do, but I'm not sure what can be done about that.

>>11839553
>I feel you only really cleared Mushi when clearing Ultra mode, because that mode has the TLB.
I'm really glad I don't feel this way, because that sounds like a miserable way to approach the genre.

>ikaruga is le bad!!

>>11839526
>that clear
Fucking legit.

>>11839579
>Issues with TLB design aside, I don't think this is a bad thing.
It is a bad thing when the game is so overly punishing that you constantly lose good runs, even tho you actually improved in the game. Ikaruga for example is very fair designed. The better you get, the better your runs will be. But Cave games are so punishing that you constantly lose runs, no matter how good you are. Your score will vary greatly, because a lot of the game designed is just based around getting lucky runs, and if you don't get the lucky run, your score will go to the shitter due to overly punishing game design.

>>11839579
>I don't think most people who like CAVE actually think this.
A lot of Cave fans literally hate Ikaruga, because it BTFOed DOJ in sales and it's not another bullet hell shmup but actually innovative.

Mark MSX says the game is not as good as Cave literally because it's different than other shmups. Cave fans are so closed minded, they think innovation and creativity is a bad thing.

>>11839620
>DUDE trust me CAVE fans HATE ikaruga sooooo much!!!
You are making up scenarios which only exist in your head
>>11839591
same goes for you

>>11828802
phelios, wings of wor, musha if you don't count mechs. steel empire you can play as a blimp

>>11839625
>You are making up scenarios which only exist in your head
I've been in the genre for quite some time, and I know full well how elitist and closed minded Cave fans can be.
>hurr Ikaruga is a puzzle game
>hurr Ikaruga is not a real shotting game, not a lot of shooting going on
>hurr Ikaruga is too easy
>hurr Ikaruga doesn't have a high skill ceiling like Cave games
>hurr Ikaruga is too different from shmups which means it must be not as good
All things I hear from Cave fans. To me Ikaruga is the most innovative and geniusly designed shmup ever. It may not be the best and it may not be your favorite game, but you have to respect the level of craft mastery at work in this game.

Another thing I heard from Cave fans was that Ikaruga supposedly doesn't let a lot of room for route creativity. They say you have to shoot the enemies in the order the devs wanted you to. But that also not really true. There are some sections which don't leave a lot of room for creativity, but usually you have multiple options how to do things, and I doubt the devs used to playtest the game at superplay levels. especially stage 4 has so much room for creativity and own routes. The game just has a more choreographed enemy placement and playstyle, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. When everything in the game is carefully planned out by the devs, it means they have full control over an enjoyable game experience, while in games like Cave or Battle Garegga it may be more open ended, but therefor the gameplay also often rather questionable.

>>11839616
>It is a bad thing when the game is so overly punishing that you constantly lose good runs, even tho you actually improved in the game.
The design of these games is so forthcoming (almost everything is static or fixed, very minimal RNG) that what you're describing doesn't make sense. Had you actually gotten better, you certainly would have survived longer or attained a higher score.

DOJ is particularly punishing, yes. However, there are significantly less punishing CAVE games. And if even those are more punishing than you'd like your games to be, that's perfectly fine. I know that may come off as dismissive, but that's not my intent. There's not a maximum number of games that are allowed to exist in the world at once. There's room for games that demand absolute perfection from the player, and there's room for games that permit for looser play. One style isn't better or worse than the other. You connect with one, and you clearly don't connect with the other. For the average person, Treasure's STGs are way over the line as far as punishing game design is concerned. People's tolerance or desire for punishment vary.

Personally, I think it's really cool that there are games that continue to challenge even their greatest and most devoted players over 20 years later.

>>11839620
Ikaruga is the 7th highest rated game on the most recent(?) shmups forum ranking. Mark said it was the 9th best STG of all time. Please give me your definitions for the terms "a lot" and "literally hate."

>>11839660
>almost everything is static or fixed, very minimal RNG
Doesn't change that their games have resource dump TLBs which give barely any room for error. You can be a complete master at scoring in DOJ, Ketsui, DDP, Mushi Ultra, whatever, and still easily lose the complete run, because of 1 single tiny mistake. It's not fair game design. Arcade games should be challenging, but they shouldn't be quarter munchers. Psikyo is similar. The way you hoard bombs in Psikyo games makes them incredibly punishing to get a 2all, because 1 tiny mistake often ruins the whole run. It doesn't matter how good you are at the game, you always just have to grind for the lucky run to even clear the game. That's just beyond of what I would consider fun. It's very bordering on quarter munching.

>>11839660
>Mark said it was the 9th best STG of all time.
He also gave it a lower score literally because it's innovative. What is this kind of logic? It's one thing if a game is different and shit, but if the game is different and actually good, then it's not a negative to be different.

>>11839668
I'm going to need you to define "fair" and "luck" as it pertains to game design. I think we're probably talking past each other. In my view, so long as the game is transparent and consistent in its design, it's fair. It doesn't matter how hard the challenges it presents you are. It doesn't matter how punished you are for failing a challenge. So long as the terms and conditions are clear and consistent, I'd say it's a fair game.

As for luck, I'd define it as any element of a game's design which is neither fixed nor within the players control.

>>11839678
I'm not interested in litigating Marks reasoning. I'm interested in seeing the evidence that Ikaruga is "literally hate[d]" by "a lot of CAVE fans". And Mark giving it a top 10 spot despite his personal issues with the game is by no means evidence of that.

>>11839682
>I'm going to need you to define "fair" and "luck" as it pertains to game design.
A fair designed game objectively judges your performance and rewards you accordingly. You are constantly getting better at the game and also get rwarding for it. But when a game has overly punishing design, for example like in Guwange where you have game long chaining, incredibly difficult RNG bosses like catspider, or constant game long bomb hoarding where 1 tiny mistake ruins the run, then it's not objectively judged on your performance in the game, it only judges you based on some overly punishing aspect of the game.

Battle Garegga is a bit similar, because it takes a while to build chains in this game too. So if you make 1 tiny mistake, your score is completely ruined. Could have had the best run ever, 1 mistake and the run will go down the drain. It's not objectively judging your performance then anymore.

>>11839692
I'm not here saving evidence. I'm just soeaking from personal experience. Obviously, Cave fans think they are the elite of the genre, so when a shmup like Ikaruga comes along which isn't a bullet hell shmup but had a more commercial success than Cave, then there is a lot of jealousy at play.

>>11839701
>Cave fans think they are the elite of the genre
And I'm saying this although I'm a Cave fan myself. Some Cave games are really really good. But I'm not dumb enough to think "hurr it's harder and has more bullets so it must be the pinnacle of shmup design".

Cave fans also always just tend to judge games based on their own personal way to approach games, which means approaching games by extensively studying replays and circlejerking in communities. Of course when you just copy replays, then a game like Ikaruga probably is not that interesting to you, because half of the fun is figuring out the chaining puzzles.

>>11839694
>A fair designed game objectively judges your performance and rewards you accordingly.
I think there's a couple problems with this. First, you run the risk of blurring the line between score representing "good play" and "good RNG" without insisting that transparency and consistency are necessary elements of fairness. You highlight this yourself with certain aspects of your critique of Guwange. Second, I think the only way to objectively define what a "good performance" within any given game is, is to simply accept its internal systems of valuation. Otherwise, you're just insisting upon your own personal preferences (in which case, my retort would simply be "I like it," and that'd be the end of the discussion). That's not to imply that games are beyond criticism, but rather that substantial criticism comes from deriving contradictions within a given design, and not by imposing ideals from the outside. For example, I don't think one can meaningfully argue that chaining is objectively bad (not saying you're saying that, just an example), but I think it is possible to argue that the way chaining functions within a given game might undermine or be in conflict with other aspects of its design. I'd say that's the kind of criticism I'd be looking for. Not "It's too punishing (by what metric, exactly, is anyone's guess)."

>>11839701
Everything you've said that CAVE fans say are things I've only seen non-CAVE fans say that CAVE fans say, but which I have never actually seen any CAVE fans say myself. Please forgive my skepticism.

>>11839754
>the way chaining functions within a given game might undermine or be in conflict with other aspects of its design
But that's exactly what I'm saying. The chaining or bomb hoarding or whatever in shmups is often so punishing, that everything ends up revolving around it. No run is perfect, so when you punish a player so much that the whole run is ruined for a single mistake, then it's not fair game design and it's not objectively judging the performance.

Ikaruga made it much more fair, because your chaining maxes out pretty quickly, so when you lose a chain it's not the end of the world. You still have plenty of room to beat your PB unless you are absolute world record player, because the game actually objectively judges your performance.

When playing Cave you will always have runs which go well, until you make 1 tiny mistake which completely ruins everything. You are always grinding for a lucky run. In Ikaruga it's not like this. Every run has potential, unless you fuck up big time.

>>11839773
I've already stated that I'm not the biggest fan of CAVE's TLBs, so I won't really be defending them.

When it comes to chaining, however, I think you're holding yourself (and perhaps others) to an unreasonably high standard. For the vast majority of players, dropping a chain is not the end of their run. You have to be at an extremely high level of play for that to be the case. And, if you are playing at that high of a level, a single mistake means a reset regardless of the game you're playing. World record Ikaruga players aren't typically recovering from mistakes in stage 3. They just reset and try again because they have virtually no room for error. Likewise, casual DOJ players aren't typically resetting because they dropped a chain in 1-4. They keep playing, because their PB is probably full of mistakes later in the game which gives them room for recovery.

Also, I have to reiterate: if virtually every facet of a game is under the player's control, there's no such thing as a "lucky run". You aren't grinding for good RNG. You're grinding to see if you'll be able to perform, and maybe learn something if you don't.

>>11839813
>dropping a chain is not the end of their run
It is when the chaining is very punishing. Guwange chaining, DOJ chaining is also very punishing (I think it's basically stage long chaining, instead of game logn chaining like in Guwange), the bomb hoarding in many shmups, Cave and Psikyo in particular is also a form of chaining and incredibly punishing.

If you play for score or survival, these mechanics can drastically alter your enjoyment of the game. When you constantly lose runs to these things, although you actually got better at the game, it can be very frustrating.

>>11839620
>>11839638
>A lot of Cave fans literally hate Ikaruga
I don't

What shmup is this?

>>11838115
Cheeky.

>>11839915
Nice scores. Have you played Sin & Punishment 2 yet? I currently play it for the first time and it's a psectacle to say teh least. The first game is also interesting but the 2nd game is pretty much the coolest game ever.

>>11840091
I didn't it, but would be a perfect first entry for a rail shooter. Do you have more recs like that game?

>>11840108
There are the Panzer Dragoon games. The remake of the first one is pretty cool and Panzer Dragoon Orta. Although Sin and Punishment 2 is by far the best rail shooter. Back in the days I also liked playing Afterburner 2, but that's pretty oldschool.
Afterburner Climax is a more modern version of it and also very good. There is also this new game called Mirage Feathers which is like Afterburner but with lolis. It's currently on sale on steam for 3 bucks and looks pretty cool.

Also what I noticed when playing Sin % Punishment 2 is that the sound from the lock-on rectacle, when locking on an enemy is pretty much the same sound that was used in Crimzon Clover. It sounds very similar and I'm sure Crimzon Clover was a bit inspired by its lock-on system.

>>11840135
>The remake of the first one
Kys

>>11840108
Although, thinking about it, I guess Sin & Punishment also could be compared to Cabal shooters. It's kind of like a mix of Cabal shooter and rail shooter, it's really unique.

In terms of Cabal shooters I would say Wild Guns Reloaded is pretty nice. It's also on steam for 6 bucks currently.

>>11840156
The original is really old, with really pixelated graphics. The remake isn't perfect but it does its job and also was on sale for like 2 bucks.

>>11840164
Die. Seriously slice your fucking wrists

>>11840178
I mean go for it if you like it that way. It's a nice game but early 3d graphics can be quite jarring

>>11840178
I also think Panzer Dragoon is one of these games which really looked better on CRTs. When I played it recently it looked really pixelated.

>>11839526
>Here's an example of a clearly survival oriented DOJ 2-all that you could copy to get your own clear if you were so inclined: https://youtu.be/I69g-sFSoC8 [Remove]
Well, if that is a survival run then I don't want to know how a scoring run looks. The run is obviously very well studied. Also lots of chaining in it, except for the hard links. That's what I mean. Even the survival runs in this game look like scoring runs, because the 2nd loop is so brutal that you really have to go all in. You need to point blank and know exactly where to go to not get overwhelmed by the bullets, that's why the routes also involve a lot of chaining.

>>11840178
Anon, do you ever think that maybe you overreact sometimes? And no, calling me a fag or redditor isn't an appropriate response, try harder.

>>11838116
>Can anyone rec any SHMUPs where you play as a cute girl?
Twinkle Tale

>>11840443
Underrated console shmup. I gotta play this some time. Just favorited it on my fightcade account

>>11840443
Ok, I just played this on fightcade, and the first thing I noticed is that it seems to be really good. The 2nd thing I noticed is that after I game overed and restarted, the stage somehow suddenly was different. There suddenly were enemies that were not there before... does the game have RNG enemy placement? And the third thing I noticed was that I suddenly now seem to be stuck. I went up the screen and arrived at some kind of white building or something? I can go in a bit but the screen doesn't take me anywhere. I also can't go back because the screen is stuck there now. Is this a bug?

>>11840484
>fightcade
>shmups
yeah ok

>>11840491
It's convenient, because I can quickly play everything without having to download it with the auto downloader

>>11840484
I'm stuck at the entrance of some kind of white angkor wat temple. The camera just doesn't move and I can't interact with anything

>>11840491
Do we tell him?

>>11840527
tell me what, schmootz?

>>11840683
Why.

>>11840683
Fightcade does get used for that one shmup, not exactly the most alive but you can find a bunch of Twinkle Star Sprites replays around.

>>11840686
What the fug.

>>11840686
what's the issue, schmootz?

Shmup total noob here. I'm playing through Gunvein on mild presently and struggling with the stage 3 boss. Any tips?

>>11828802
Gondomania.
You're a guy on an airbike of sorts. Used one of those directional joysticks like Ikari Warriors to aim a secondary weapon. Also could play 2-player simultaneous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFiymc-6ROE

Gemini Wing
You're a ship ... but the game has a mechanic that I thought was neat. You had a secondary super-bomb'ish weapon which was dictated by orbs you'd pick up along the way. They'd trail behind you like a tail, and I believe you could rearrange their order of fire by looping around and crossing its path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pk6e7lIzVE

Rabbit Punch
As the name implies, there's a punching mechanic in the game, but I don't remember how it worked ... I haven't played it in 30 years, and squinting at the video below, I can't quite make out what made it special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKy6F__Nw80

i need more shmups that scratch the radiant silvergun itch. i've 1cced ikaruga and (not retro i know) zeroranger and adored both but i'm struggling to find more that speak to me like radiant silvergun did. im tempted to go back for the full hog saturn mode 1cc honestly... but if any of you have shmup recs that scratch that itch i'd be more than happy to give them a shot!!!

>>11841131
Strania, lots of weapon management too

>>11839986
SPACE

>>11838116
jpn version

Any shmups where you play as a banjo plucking geezer?
This one let me down.

>>11828507
I'm wondering about this as well. Looking to pick up a wireless solution for my Saturn, and it looks like the only options are 8bitdo's bluetooth m30 or a Retroshit 2.4g pad.
I own a 2.4g m30 for my Genesis and I love it, but I hear bluetooth has horrible latency. How are Retrobit's pads? I've seen tons of mixed reviews from people who honestly sound like they have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Some people say the retrobit saturn pad's dpad is perfect, while others say it's awful and cheaply made. Other people say their Saturn Pro pad with the joysticks is significantly worse than the base pad without analog sticks, including the dpad. I can't imagine that there would actually be a huge variation in quality considering it's the same damn controller with the same dpad, but with or without analog sticks. I wouldn't use the sticks either way. I don't know who to believe. Any suggestions?

>>11841590
The most bizarre cover in history

>>11841131
RSG is actually quite unique. There is nothing quite like it. It probably has the most interesting atmosphere out of any shmup. They should make a shmup/JRPG hybrid out of it or something.

>>11828870
>posted png version
based

What is the Dark Souls of shmups

>>11839915
you got a deedlit on your screenshot

>group of japanese DDP superplayers kept a scoring glitch secret for over a decade
Any other games where this has happened?

>>11841978
For me it's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcr2Co9MqoE
Not achieveable natty but it's a really weird one.

>>11841905
Yagawa shmups?

>>11828502 (OP)
How do I get into shmups? My favorite shmups are Galaga, contra and star fox 64. Thise are also the only shmups I know.

>>11841040
How was the tutorial?

>>11841203
thank you!!! loving what i'm seeing of this one, i'll absolutely give it a go (switch version seems like the best version?)
>>11841713
yeah, i've accepted that i won't ever find anything that close to RSG but i'm at the very least overdosing on hopium for ubusuna to actually release sometime this decade. the tiny bits of previews shown over the last 10 years look immaculate i'm just praying for it to not be cancelled at this point lol

>>11841905
Just to be on the same page, do you mean an actually hard shmup, or an overrated one?

am I missing anything

>>11828507
lots of people don't like these, but I do

>>11828507
these are also very nice if you are into super clicky buttons. Dpad feels more like a GBA SP pad than the saturn one it looks like, very interesting.

>>11842249
>contra
Not a shmup
>Star Fox 64
Not a shmup
>How do I get into shmups
Zeroranger

>>11843479
How is the dpad on these things? I'm looking for a new Saturn controller and I'm a cheap fuck so I don't want to buy a Brook Wingman and a different controller. I'd rather just do a single purchase, and I've been eyeing that and the stickless version.

>>11843521
they're good, it feels a little cheaper than an original saturn controller somehow but overall the same, except for the L/R buttons.

>>11828802
Dragon Breed

>>11842383
Really basic. Shows you fundamentals such as bullet streaming and tap dodging, but doesn't really go into it in-depth and the tutorial mode has barely any enemies that can actually kill you.

>>11843478
>crimzon clover on steam
Just me, or is the game almost impossible to get working fullscreen tate despite a million screen options? The forums say to download external software to get it working which seems absurd for such a well-regarded doujin sold for like $20 on steam.

>>11843752
The PC version is janky as fuck. Unironically probably the only shmup that is straight up better on Switch.

>>11843539
How is the new Irem collection port?

Business idea: Cave Museum. Give us ports of all the game and I will buy them.

>>11841905
Guwange, it's also dark fantasy setting

>>11842203
The sound effects and music in DDP are atrocious. I have no idea how people can losten to this cacophony for hundreds of hours.

>>11843752
Works fine on my end.

>>11844165
Honestly kinda true, DDP is a nice little game but has weak sound design. Personally I only liked the boss theme.
It's cool though, CAVE absolutely learned their lesson with DOJ and every other game that came after it.

>>11844165
It's cool as FUCK at first tbf. But yeah, it gets old. Due to both the intensity of the music, and the fact tracks are repeated. The actual audio quality is also unfortunate.

>>11842203
This looks awful. I'll stick to dad shmups.

>>11844812
You are not supposed to do that. It's just a very obtuse glitch performed purely to show off the oddity.

>>11843478
>am I missing anything
Rolling Gunner
Like Dreamer
Ray'z Arcade Chronology
Cotton Rock'n'roll
Lilac 0
Shikigami no Shiro III
Blue Revolver

Great shmup collection so far, but you actually play those games?

>>11843752
It is janky as fuck for me. The way I "solve" it, is that I just use a single screen active. I think the game on PC gets a little funky with mutiple screens at once

I just played Futari for the first time and I can see why people like it so much. The gameplay is still a bit simple, but it looks really pretty.

Also, why did they switch the buttons for normal shot and focus shot in Futari? It kinda confused me, but they mapped the normal shot to R2 and the focus shot to X.

>>11844869
Mushihimesama is for people who just want to shoot and dodge things. But that's pretty cool on its own right.

>>11844871
Yea, I think the main features which always have set Mushi apart are just the bug theme, pretty graphics and cool looking bullet patterns. They are not the most innovative shmups, but probably the prettiest ones.

>>11838116
junis is a cutie. play her game.

>>11844939
EXCELLENT post.

>>11844853
I have two monitors active, so will try setting my vert screen as my main display, then switching my hori screen off before launching the game. Thanks, anon.

What bullet hell has the most satisfyingly 'crunchy' popcorn enemies?

>>11845168
Cho Ren Sha 68K
Strikers 1945 II
Dodonpachi DaiOuJou
Rolling Gunner
Crimzon Clover
Shikigami no Shiro III

>>11845168
Ikaruga, they even look like popcorn
In Raiden it's the tanks but I wouldn't call them popcorn

>>11838116
Espgaluda but particularly 2's Black Label for Seseri

any shmups reccomendation with 3d graphics ? looking games like ikaruga and r type delta

I really need to learn how to control my nerves again. Today I got a decent-ish run but lost it to literally shaking at the final stage.

>>11846345
G.rev shmups

>>11828507
Qanba Crystal modded with an LS-32 and PS-14-G buttons.

>>11846384
>Today I got a decent-ish run but lost it to literally shaking at the final stage.
That's the best part, albeit. When a video game has the same effect on you as a stimulant, you can be pretty sure it's a good one :^)

>>11838116

Kingdom Grand Prix as a giant fairy

>>11846345
Raystorm and Raycrysis

doesn anyone else play shmups and not give a single shit about the score?
I just want a quick fix, and some interesting mechanics.

>>11847043
One will eventually give a shit about scoring once one finds a shmup with excellent and satisfactory scoring

>>11847043
I used to play shmups for score over multiple years, but now I just play more casually on steam deck and hop from game to game. All the games I play are so difficult, it's hard to get really good at any of them.

>>11846960
ZAMN my pilot looks like THAT??

>>11845664
Downloading right now. I thought Espgaluda only had trannies

I didn't know that Futari is an M2 port. That explains the high quality of it. It's probably the best port I ever played.

>>11847321
Not trannies although they change sex when entering Kakusei Mode but that's it

Been grinding Ketsui fairly hard today with the only advancement so far being that I've finally made it to Stage 5. Died right before the extend but the 1-ALL is getting closer.

>almost got my gunvein clear in the morning
>8 year old nephew comes over
>he loves playing mushi co-op with me
>run it hard with him most of the afternoon
>lots of fun with him, he's getting close to a novice normal clear
>go back to gunvein in the morning
>miss once on stage one
>twice on stage two
>game over before the stage three boss
Cave has infected my brain. I am playing like hot garbage now.

>>11847373
This whole time I thought it was a tag-team situation, like Double Dash, or something.

>allowing your nephew to play Cave games
He will be transitioning in a year.

Why don't they release the M2 port of Garegga on other platforms?

>>11828870
what game is pic related from?

>>11847978
I've read that they had problems with getting the games to run smoothly on newer windows. They almost ported Batrider too. Maybe it still comes, who knows.

How does Cave even create their slowdown? To me it seems as if they just code that the FPS goes down to 40 at certain places and conditions. Only in shmups are FPS drops seen as a positive.

>>11848091
I'm by no means an expert, but I'm pretty sure it's not programmed. I think it's actual lag from pushing the hardware to its limits. That's why it's so hard to emulate.

>>11848070
go back

>>11848097
>but I'm pretty sure it's not programmed.
Some is intentional I'm pretty sure.
A blatant example is how they added slowdown on DOJ's 2nd boss/last pattern in the Black Label version, which was not present in the arcade original.

>>11847119

you are probably on to something with the gamehopping, I do have a large collection on various formats so frequently bounce between many games so I dont get hardcore into routes and secrets. I think having so many if you 1CC its probably more tempting to move on to something else than to keep grinding it for score.

How the fuck are you supposed to beat Strikers 1945?

>>11848310
It's a psikyo gaem so, raw memo

>>11848310
play Plus instead

>>11848310
Memo them

>>11848269
I still do grind a bit. Recently grinded a bit Deathsmiles and got a new PB. I'm just in the mood to also play some other stuff I am interested in. I don't have too many games which still really interest me tho, so that's a good thing. Finding new games to play becomes harder and harder. The vast majority of videogames are just too goofy for me.

My main criteria for playing a game is always the artstyle. If I like the artstyle of the game, I probably want to play it. Thankfully there are many shmups with great artstyles.

>>11848310
Bombs

>>11848605
I used to feel this way. Unfortunately there are many good shmups with terrible anime artstyles including stupid loli shit. I stopped giving a fucked about it ans truly got into the genre

>>11848895
But loli shit is the best kidn of artstyle. I find the quality of the artstyle usually reflects the overall quality of the game, unless it's another artsy puzzle game. They sadly don't have very good gameplay but often amazing art.

Any recommendations? i havent played em all yet but im currently on a binge and its really fun.

Why is Zanac so cheap when every other Compile game ever is expensive?

>>11849802
Rolling Gunner

>>11849802
Gunbird 2 (if you liek pain)
Under Defeat (one of the best on steam)

>>11849802
How's Pichyune Dreams?

>>11849802
Crimzon Clover

It finally happened. I actually became a Cavedrone. Now I play all their games. They just made a lot of good games.

Plus Cave actually has some good ports too. If only Psikyo had better ports, then maybe I would play them more too. I need my convenient replay mechanics and stage selection practice.

>hanging out with my nephew again
>i let him loose on my steam account for the evening
>he boots up a bunch of games
>in each one he is commentating his own gameplay like he is twitch streaming
Are all zoomers this annoying? What ever happened to shutting up and just getting immersed in a vidya game

>>11850614
>nephew found the touhou h-games

>>11841590
Cover made me hate the game before I ever played it. I will probably never play it. I refuse.

>>11850616
Damn, he found out you're gay.

>>11850614
>in each one he is commentating his own gameplay like he is twitch streaming
what

>>11849802
the only game that matters battlemania 2

>>11850614
>What ever happened to shutting up and just getting immersed in a vidya game
3hr video essays happened

>>11850621
zoomoids got psyopped into thinking that streaming was not only a job, but the ideal one
theyre always prepping for their big break
>ZOMG did u see that chat?
>are we cooked chat?
>[theres no chat]

>>11850614
That's what he learned from you, Aquas.

>oh no boss time and I have NO BOMBS i am arr cooked
Words that came out of his mouth.

Is it true that Sanwa sticks aren't good for shoot 'em ups? I use a stick made in my country that is normally used by favela dwellers to play KOF, so it has a huge travel and doesn't even have microswitches (it's optical), and even so I can play shoot 'em ups normally. So I was thinking that buying a Sanwa stick with microswitches would be a big improvement (and it will be), but I saw some anon comment saying that they're not good for shmups. Does that make sense?

>>11828507
>>11838115
It arrived this morning. After updating the firmware, I played through a few credits of Akai Katana and Streets of Rage 4 on my bingbingwahoo!-machine and it feels really, really good. I grew up with Nintendo consoles, so the 'floating' d-pad always seemed foreign to me, but it is as smooth as butter. For some reason, it won't connect via usb cable to my PC - i had to update the firmware through my old potato laptop. I don't think it is the controller itself, rather some kind of weirdness on my computer's end, although the computer recognises every other controller I plug in via a usb-C cable.

>>11828502 (OP)
>>11828502 (OP)
>>11828502 (OP)

I'll discuss it when I get off my lazy ass and try to re-learn everything about MAME and it's 10 quadrilllion builds meant for schmup arcade boards that still aren't cycle accurate.

I've probably listened to more schmup soundtracks than actually played whatever schmups they came from. It's agonizing.

When you're playing a game for the first time and learning it, do you credit feed to familiarize yourself with the game, or do you try to 1cc it from the get go and only ever attempt the game on a single credit?

>>11851525
save states / stage reset and grinding the individual stages until i clear it

>>11851525
>>11851570

Or play training mode for a while before going for clears

>>11849863
>>11850496
>>11850563
>>11850664
Thx anons, il check em out.

>>11850559
So far really fun, but its a survivors type game like vampire survivors. id say if you like the genre its def worth it since its on sale.

Hi
Japanese arcades almost always use square restrictors, right? If I buy a Sanwa with a square restrictor, will I get an experience more similar to what you get in original Japanese arcades (Cave, Psikyo, etc.)? I've been reading around and some people prefer octagonal restrictors for shoot 'em ups.

>>11844828
ty for filling the voids
I do actually play them, just more as a fill in when I get sick of other games or don't feel like starting something big and new just yet. I enjoy them a lot but my relationship with them is fairly casual. I'm not good but I'm not bad either.
>>11843752
that's one I haven't actually gotten to yet kek
>>11843794
i guess emulating the Switch versions are also a solid option, there is some stuff over there that didn't get released on Steam anyway I think

Also, thoughts on the new Sonic Wings? Aside from it being too expensive?

>>11843752
>Just me, or is the game almost impossible to get working fullscreen tate despite a million screen options?
My problem is that I use two monitors, and I think that completely messes up the game and it doesn't know how to handle it.

>>11851836
are you stretching them across both? If you're in a borderless window it shouldn't give any fucks about your 2nd monitor. I'll boot it up and play it for a bit soon to see what happens, I have 2 monitors connected where I'm at rn

>>11851836
>>11851838
seems fine to me

>>11849802
Ether Vapor is kewl shit

>>11851525
I see how many credits it takes me first time playing it fresh.

>>11851525
I only credit feed when I want to see the content of the game. If I can't even do the beginning right, then I also shouldn't care about learning the later stages. That's just unnecessary information for the brain.

Been playing a lot more schmups lately because I put together an MSX2 setup (real hardware, MSX Pico for ROMs).
So far I like Aleste 1 and 2 quite a lot.

akai katana > akai katana zetsu > progear > akai katana shin > deathsmiles > deathsmiles mbl > deathsmiles arrange >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deathsmiles 2

brb copping fr
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/283924530244?stype=1&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

beat hishouzame
thought gradius was better but it's a good game

>>11851525
I usually play through a single credit about half a dozen times, then I'll play each stages training mode/make save states for each boss and mid-boss. Usually at the end of a practice session, I will put a few credits in and see how far I get. Then when I am sitting down to try and properly clear it, I will drink a huge cup of coffee and go for it.

>>11852345
Akai Katana has a weird aesthetic with the characters being as big as ships.

Are they any good Touhou clones without the loli aesthetic? I want very mesmerising and flowing bullet patterns moving at slow speeds which emphasise player micro-dodging.

Most coomable Shmup character? I wanna shoot and goon.

>>11852394
The stage 1 boss is like twice the size of ship A.

>>11852506
/r/ing sexy images of Birthday. That sultry look on her APB character portrait always left me wanting more.

>>11852506
She's so cute, bros...

>>11852506
The villainess from that game
Kaen

Tried playing DOJ white label a bit... I don't think I wanna keep playing this game. The difficulty is just not fun anymore.

Also the shot types in it are completely unbalanced. Who the fuck would ever use Shotia when you need laser for every fucking boss? Exy is the only viable option.

>>11851525
>or do you try to 1cc it from the get go and only ever attempt the game on a single credit?
Don't do this, it's horribly inefficient and unfun.
A better idea is to just trying to reach the end with progressively less continues, until you eventually reach the point where you will only need one continue/2 credits, then you can finally go for 1cc attempts only and restart whenever you lose all your lives, unless it feels like you seriously need to practice one section.

>>11851570
Also yeah, if you have a training mode or can use save states, this kind of practice is very efficient and I think can become especially rewarding because you can see yourself go from sucking at the stage to clearing it no miss/no bomb in real time.

>>11852864
>Who the fuck would ever use Shotia
Masochists who also play white label and type B to maximize suffering.
The japs even meme the fuck about her being only good at spamming bombs. Which is a fair strategy for stage 5 I guess lmao.

>>11852698

>>11829495
> and STG (Shooting Game) is very niche and weeb.
Please elaborate. STG refers to a particular kind of SHMUP?

>>11853304
STG is what japs abbreviate these types of games, and niche on the west, I mean

>>11853304
STG is really just "shooting game" in japanese, it's used specifically for what we call shmups while if somebody said here you would be thinking about FPS for instance. The term isn't used outside of it.

Ikarugafags have to let everyone know how amazing their puzzle game is every thread

>>11849827
Early NES title, lots of copies printed
See also: The Guardian Legend

>>11848310
Don’t play the Saturn tribute collection

>>11853357
I’ve seen STG become more prevalent in the west, though. Also “belt scroller” instead of “brawler” or “beat em up.” WTF is going on? Is everyone just turning into a turbo weeb?

>>11853447
It is a puzzle game, but at least it's fun to play, unlike Cave, Psikyo or Raizing. Treasure actually knows how to make good games and not just quarter munchers.

>>11853519
Maybe your issue is getting filtered then.

>>11853534
No, it's just a matter of bad game design. Ikeda could never make a game like Sin & Punishment 2. Treasure was on a whole different level

>>11853538
Filtering your ass isn't "bad game design".

>>11853541
Any idiot developer can spam the screen with bullets. It doesn't mean the game is better. Shmup developers often were not good enough to make good games, so they had to rely on milking binge gamers for coins.

>>11853551
Good thing that's not all the games are doing then.
Also holy headcanon.

Replace the game sounds with this and you will 1cc whatever shmup you are playing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo2nkmebhkU

>>11853871
CAVE was somehow drunker than zun when they made daifukkatsu. probably high as shit too

>>11853447
Bedtime, MSX-sama.

>>11853447
I don't mind those kind of posts if they really show that they actually play the game

Can this also serve as the thread for discussing beat em ups?

>>11849827
Because shmups on the NES sucked mostly by comparison. Zanac is good for NES standards.

>>11841131
Honestly depends on what you liked about it. You could try Gradius V to round out Treasure's shmup trilogy, or try some of their non-shmup games. Alien Soldier shares tons of mechanics with Radiant Silvergun and I love them both for similar reasons.

>>11854146
No, but maybe an Arcade thread will do it

>>11854653
We should make a 'mups general and combine forces

>>11854758

>>11852506
How do you shoot and goon? That's some sukirru

The last level of "Under Defeat" is kind of discouraging. The difficulty, which already increases significantly in level 4, takes another huge leap in level 5. And that's just the first loop. I don't know if the second loop is similar to Psikyo games, where the devs are clearly giving the player the middle finger, or if it's properly balanced, though.
If level 1 of the second loop is harder than level 5 of the first loop, then I will never finish that game with one coin.

>>11854146
I only like the D&D beat em ups and Streets of Rage 1+2. All other beat em us are goofy.

>>11855492
It's nowhere near psikyo bullshit. The hard part can just be to even unlock the 2nd loop in it, because it's based on enemy kill percentages and your bombs don't count towards it, so if you bomb you lose enemy kills.

>>11851134
It sounds like you already know but want confirmation, but yes a sanwa stick is still going to be better for shmups than 99% of stuff out there. When people say it's bad for shmups or w/e, they mean purely relative to Seimitsu sticks. Seimitsu LS-32 really is awesome for shmups without going so far as to be bad for other arcade genres.
>>11851752
Yes. Octogates are weird imo, but some people do like them. At least in my opinion it's not like they're bad, but square just feels so much better. Cardinals and corners feeling so distinct is really nice.

Thoughts on Progear? I got a converted CPS2 copy of it and the ending of it hit me a bit even with its lack of a story.

>>11854146
No, just use this thread
>>11851996

Judgement Silversword is quickly becoming one of my new favorites.

>>11857037
Seen this discussed a lot. What is distinctive and/or good about it?

DOJ has a little girl on the cover embracing a cock symbol. Now you know why cavedrones liek the game so much.

>>11829387
>a game in which you do nothing but shoot things
False. You also run, thus the name Run n' Gun.
Both Run n' Gun and Shmup belong to the same genre which is bullet hell, but this thread is specifically about Shmups.

>>11843478
Some questionable choices but mostly great. ou should play the original Raiden which is a classic game. If you like Toaplan play Twin Cobra, that's one of their best shooters and the gameplay, weapons are all very well balanced. I played the PC Engine version, IDK what's on steam.

>>11857198
The game is made up of a lot of short levels, and it’s fun trying to finish them as fast as possible. Enemies feel very satisfying to gun down, and each difficulty option feels very well tuned. There’s also some unlockables from scoring enough points.

Speaking of DOJ, I have a newfound appreciation for that spammy section in stage5 after the midbosses and until the boss. It's actually a good test of fundamentals.

>>11857697
The fundamental thing of this game is just copying replays, otherwise you don't know the savespots and don't get enough hypers to survive. If you chose any shot type apart from exy you ae fucked from the beginnign too. use laser and you only have a pea shooter after you die once. The game is fucked.

>>11857867
i'd say using anyone other than exy being worthless is the biggest flaw of the game. still 10 out of 10

DOJ feels like it tries to copy Garegga/Gun Frontier with its rank system, but it completely fails to understand what makes Gun Frontier rank fun. It basically forces you to use hypers, otherwise you get walled by many patterns, which means that you can't really controll the rank, so the rank is kind of redundant.

>>11857867
>The fundamental thing of this game is just copying replays
Didn't copy any replay and still figured out how to survive that section while saving up hyper and bombs for the boss instead. Literally still better than what's between the first midboss and the other two.

>If you chose any shot type apart from exy you ae fucked from the beginnign too. use laser and you only have a pea shooter after you die once. The game is fucked.
>>11857885
For what's worth you can still 1cc both WL and BL using Shotia/Leinyan, but sure they have some issues. The latter is more functional but has really bad recovery, the former is really dragged down by anything that requires the laser but you won't struggle with recovery at all. Devs apparently acknowledged it partially since Shotia became better in BL(moves much faster when you hold down the laser compared to WL).

>>11857889
>which means that you can't really controll the rank
There is a way, not sure if it's intended but if you bomb before the hyper ends you do get lower rank.
Of course that's very wasteful unless you are playing Shotia, but it does work if you want to make the rest of the game easier or you can get the bomb back from the carrier before you actually need it.

>>11857941
>There is a way, not sure if it's intended but if you bomb before the hyper ends you do get lower rank.
Does the rank increase if you just pick up hypers? Because if that is the case then it's best to just ignore hypers. I just tried to do ths with Leinyan, and it seemed to work pretty well. Stage 3 boss had really low rank.

>>11857941
>while saving up hyper and bombs for the boss
The thing about the bosses in this game is that you can use hyper only for a brief moment and then you have to bomb again because another wall pattern appears.

>>11857960
Pretty sure the hyper rank increase happens only on use.
Overall rank is also affected by survival, but the effects seem to be minimal to me.

>>11857941
>if you bomb before the hyper ends you do get lower rank.
The question is how much. It probably increases it a lot and then only lowers it a bit. At least that's what I expect from cave.

>>11857974
Definitely lower than how much you are gaining, I tested it with the second boss and it had higher rank than not using hypers at all.

>>11857987
Interesting. If the rank is low, the game definitely becomes more playable to me. I play on a small steam deck screen, so the hair needle patterns are tricky for me, especially on the bosses high rank becomes tough.

>>11857997
>so the hair needle patterns are tricky for me
For everyone's really. These bullets have a very strange hitbox.

The rng in DOJ sometimes makes the bullet patterns very easy and sometimes much harder. Sometimes I get through it no problem and the next time I just get walled.

>>11858275
Yep. It's why the game has a reputation for being particularly tough to 1cc, even if you practice a lot, the game has a lot of ways to fuck with you and keep your consistency in check.

Maybe I'm just too old for shmups. I used to be really good at some games but now I can't clear anythign anymore.

>>11858282
That's why it#s all about copying replays, so you constantly get hypers and don't even have to dodge.

>>11858437
It's not THAT bad, especially if you stick to Black Label. Eventually you get used to reaction-bomb/hyper the RNG-heavy sections if shit hits the fan.
Now if you want to play white label, oh boy I sure hope you like dying to stray bullets and extremely tight dodges with your fat hitbox.

>>11858453
White label is the true game. It's how the game was meant to be played. Black label was just an afterthought. I still think the game is overrated by cavedrones. It's a good game, but not a 10. People only praise it so highly because "le hardest shmup ever", but it's not particularly fun to play

>>11858548
>White label is the true game. It's how the game was meant to be played. Black label was just an afterthought
Perhaps, but most people just play BL from what I have seen. OG runs are very niche, although I have heard they became a trend for a hot minute, for japs at least.
>but it's not particularly fun to play
Can't really agree, it's one of the shmups that I consider the most fun to play and a good example of stage design in danmaku specifically, mainly because it feels like it borrows a lot more from traditional shmups.

>>11858410
You realize the genre is japanese boomer salaryman-core right.

>>11858630
>it's one of the shmups that I consider the most fun
The chaining is not very satisfying, unless you go full superplay. The fun thing about Ikaruga is that you can actually keep your chain the whole time even if you are just playing for survival, but in DOJ the chaining is so strict that you really gotta play by the rules of the devs if you want to keep the chain.

I also don't liek the constant dodging in cave games. Always having to look ahead and praying that you have your hitbox in the right place is just not fun to me.

>>11858696
>The fun thing about Ikaruga is that you can actually keep your chain the whole time even if you are just playing for survival
That just means it's fucking easy.
Full stage chain should be something worth of a superplay, although CAVE didn't agree with this either and made it much easier in DFK and even SDOJ.

Which caravan shmups are great for little competitions on threads, /vr/?
Aside from pic related of course

>>11858737
Forget caravan, play TSS.

>memorization: the genre
lol

>>11858756
Man, it took you so long

>>11858765
His memory is shit and forgot about shmup threads until now.

>>11828502 (OP)
Nexzr for the PCEngine CD is the best, most artfully crafted shmup ever created. That is all.

>>11858720
>That just means it's fucking easy.
It just means it's actually fun to play and gives you routing possibilities. Ikaruga can actually be played with strategy. You can chose where to chain, when to use your homing lasers, when to switch polarity, however you want. It gives you freedom to play in your own style. DOJ doesn't do this. It forces you to play a certain way.

>>11858720
>Full stage chain should be something worth of a superplay
The chaining in this game is completely fucked. It doesn't represent player skill. My last runs were all better than my highscore, but I don't even get to the top 5 because the chaining is so fucked and punishing so cave get munch quarters.

>>11858821
>It forces you to play a certain way.
Only to the extent of a very high scoring run, but that can be applied to pretty much any other shmup.

>>11858829
>It doesn't represent player skill.
It does because CAVE games get harder as you try to score more.
Beating every stage while focusing on survival requires less skill than full chaining one or more stages, even if you die right after it.

>>11858838
>Only to the extent of a very high scoring run
No, to the extent of keeping your chain. Since the chaining is so strict and punishing, you have to play a certain way to even keep it. And since your ship is so powerful in this game, there is not a lot finesse to the chaining apart from the linking. Most of the chaining is just done by playing normally and the chaining happens in the background. But then you always have these hard links where you have to do certain things.

>>11858838
>Beating every stage while focusing on survival requires less skill than full chaining one or more stages
The chaining in Cave games is often so punishing that one tiny mistake of a milisecond can totally ruin your score. This doesn't represent player skill. Especially if you are just playing for survival mainly, and don't even focus on the chaining so much, then it just becomes luck to get a new PB.

>>11858875
>No, to the extent of keeping your chain.
And what is the purpose of the chain again?
>Especially if you are just playing for survival mainly
If you are doing that you should only care about scoring enough for extends, which isn't too hard in DOJ imo, you can get a lot of chains off by just clicking the hyper button and chasing enemies.

>novice modes too easy
>normal modes too hard

hlep me

>>11858882
>And what is the purpose of the chain again?
You get lives from it, a new PB and satisfaction.

>If you are doing that you should only care about scoring enough for extends
I want to see my score getting higher too tho, which is difficult in this game if you play for survival.

>>11858925
CAVE's approach to scoring isn't about being mostly reflective of survival ability, it's about going well beyond that. You will see it outside of the DDP series or chaining games too, it's always on purpose and it's what the players asked out of them.
Whether their approach fits your playstyle is another story.

>>11858894
Stage practice every stage on normal mode

>>11858970
I already played Cave for score. I know myself how convoluted their systems are.

>it's about going well beyond that
Not necessarily. Keeping your chain in Guwange is pretty easy, but if you lose it your score is ruined. Not getting hit at all is not easy at all tho. Cave systems are just convoluted and very arbitrary rules. You never really know what is the best way to score, because there are always systems clashing against each other. It's a mess. Even for survival play. Should I hyper in DOJ to get extends or should I do not to keep the rank low? You just don't know, because these games are a mess only pandering to binge gamers.

>>11859073
>Cave systems are just convoluted and very arbitrary rules.
They were mostly experimenting shit to be fair. Late CAVE games are more refined, DOJ is somewhere in-between, feels like they took some steps to ensure full chains are possible like the doors in s4, but didn't really think much of it.
>Should I hyper in DOJ to get extends or should I do not to keep the rank low?
The idea is that if you want more points you have to take more risks.

Akai Katana is really confusing me. Is there a good guide to explain the mechanics? I get that you transform, and this consumes the green metre. Sometimes I will bullet cancel, sometimes not. I am playing for survival at the moment, so don't need a super in-depth answer.

>>11858894
Gotta break through that wall, anon. Keep practicing.

>>11859073
>Should I hyper in DOJ to get extends or should I do not to keep the rank low?
There are only two ways to lower rank in DOJ: dying, and bombing out of a hyper. Using hypers is essential to rank management. You also only need a single good chain to ensure you'll get both extends by 1-5. The easiest way to do this is by activating hyper during the second half of stage 2. If you do that, you don't need to think about chaining for the rest of the game.

If you're going to publicly bitch about a game, you should at least demonstrate basic familiarity with it.

>>11859630
There are scoring tips on the forum and those include mechanics helpful for survival like bullet cancelling.

>>11859779
It's not my fault these games do a piss-poor job at explaining their convoluted systems. That's a reason why Ikaruga is more populare. It clearly explains what you have to do from the start. It's simple and elegantly designed, while Cave games are bloated with systems on top of systems.

How much harder is White label compared to black label? When I compare videos of them I don't really see that much difference apart from the life robbery in 2nd loop

>>11860827
Played WL a lot recently, I don't have a full list or anything, but that's a bunch of things out of the top of my mind

>Shotia is particularly difficult to use because the ship slows down to a crawl when you use the laser, this was reduced but is still present in BL
>hyper bar recharges slower, that makes it harder to do certain chain links or even survive certain sections
>zakos have higher fire rate, it's much more likely to get killed by stray tiny pink pellets slipping inside bigger patterns
>Suzaku(s1 boss) generally just fires its patterns faster and has a much more dense version of the spinning attack, the second loop version has an infamously difficult opener
>Byakko(s2 boss) is more likely to create tight overlaps with its needle bullets, this combined with your bigger hitbox means you will have to bomb if the RNG says so(possibly more than once), also no slowdown on the last pattern get fucked
>Genbu(s3 boss) uses the medium-size blue circle bullets for both parts of the final pattern, again this means there is a lot less space with your larger hitbox
>the cannon in the fourth stage uses larger bullets
>stage 5 is way more spammy because of the more vicious zakos, you are FAR more likely to run into stray bullets
There is definitely more than that, hope other anons can add to the list.

>>11860848
Imagine playing this at the arcade back then. They must have spend a fortune just to clear this game.

I probably should just play an other game. DOJ is borderline unplayable on steam deck with the tight dodges and fast bullets.

Forgive the low FPS and no audio, I had incorrect OBS settings
https://streamable.com/ro9783
Imagine doing it but then ending it like this.

>>11860932
Certified Leinyan moment.
She looks fun to use actually

>>11860985
It's all fun and games until you lose the shot levels on your first death.

>>11855756
I paid a fag to build an arcade stick with Sanwa parts for me. Let's see what happens...
I found it interesting how Seimitsu uses things like tweezers to make the diagonals more precise. That probably affects the feel of the lever radically, and I suppose that's more important for a good lever for shmups than the supposed shorter travel. But I don't know, now I'm going to wait and see how much better it is to play on a Sanwa instead of a generic stick...

>>11860932
>https://streamable.com/ro9783
should've hypered

>>11861259
I was trying to get through the whole thing without touching B, for the sake of.

>>11860989
They should have at least made the laser extra powerful, but afaik it's just the same as Exy. The extra bombs go down for recovery already.

It also would have been more fun and fair if you could really stack hypers in DOJ and use them independtly. Then you actually had a real survival strategy by stacking hypers, similar to the weapons in Garegga.

But no, fun is not allowed by Cave

As amazing as Gradius 5 really is, it's also really sad that the game doesn't have more organical stages. It really lacks a plant stage.

>DoDonPachi DOJ - FAILED RUN becomes ANGRY RAMPAGE 1CC (w/ commentary)

>>11861392
Sounds kino as fuck

>>11861386
No moai stages either. I blame trashure

Decent fantasy themed shmups? Something sword and sorcery.

>>11861441
Dragon Blaze.
Cotton I guess

>>11861441
Dimahoo/Great Mahou Daisakusen is exactly what you're looking for

>>11861432
I don't mind the lack of Moai. It's too cartoony for the artstyle. But a plant stage or icecube stage would have been cool.

>>11861446
>check a dragon blaze video
Holy psikyomemo. Even in the first loop.

>>11861472
Unzip the save states, you are going to be there all week.

>tfw even Mark MSX is better at DOJ than you

>>11861580
Couldn't be me

>>11861650
I can no-miss until stage 3, that's where things get out of hand. I even started using Shotia with Type B now, because I need the bombs, and the wide shot is always good in stages for survival.
I mostly just bomb the hard boss patterns anyway, so I don't really mind slow laser.
Leinyan is just too hard with the recovery in stages, and Exy has no bombs.

>>11861716
Stage 3 with B-S is much harder specifically because your laser sucks and you can't get away from the turrets in time. The first part at least, the second part can be memo'd away.
Stage 4 will actually be surprisingly easier until the cannon and the rails, then shit hits the fan.
You are playing Shotia, there is no stage 5 if you have enough resources.

>>11861721
>Stage 3 with B-S is much harder specifically because your laser sucks and you can't get away from the turrets in time
Yeah I know what you mean. Probably have to use a hyper and a bomb there.

At what score do you get the 2nd extend? My score is usually 1.8 or something when I die. I can only get the first extend.

>>11861730
>At what score do you get the 2nd extend?
White label/DDP3 30m
Black label 50m

>>11861721
Also, is it allowed to bomb the cannon and still get the extend?

>>11861735
Damn... so I still have to get almost double my score then. This will be tough.

>>11861736
You are allowed to bomb the cannon BUT if you kill the main part with bomb damage specifically, the extend doesn't show up.
If you want to be safe don't use laserbomb.

Also I get to repost this since it was specifically B-S and white label too.

>>11861742
>don't use laserbomb
Wouldn't this be better for precision? Or is there some trick with the normal bomb? You probably mean something like destroy one side, then use bomb and move over to the other or something? Kinda liek in Mushihimesama stage 3?

>>11861748
Wide bomb does way less damage, that's it. It's a lot less likely to blow up the cannon by accident.
>You probably mean something like destroy one side, then use bomb and move over to the other or something?
Yeah that's pretty much the safest strat. Or you could go for the misdirect in the webm above, even Shotia piss laser manages to squeeze enough damage in as long it's at max level.

>>11861758
>as long it's at max level
Yea that probably won't be the case for me.

Fucking hell Sh*tia that's embarassing.
Anyway worst case scenario I guess.

Actually possible even with the lowest level laser and no bombing, just more tight and not as consistent.
Now the rails on the other hand...

When people talk about "routing", do they kind of memorize the exact route they need to take, or is it just something more generic like "in this part I stay more to the left, then I go more to the right"?

>>11862116
Can be both, most games don't require overly strict routing outside of score play or very high difficulties

See ya' next thread, /vr/

This game is pretty good, the graphics are very nice and colorful and very PCE. My dude is kind of huge though with a huge hitbox. And there is so much shit on the screen at all times with the fruit flying everywhere that it's hard to tell what is good and what is an enemy projectile.