Why did they remove directional whipping? I don't deserve this punishment.

>>11828748 (OP)
Whip was nerfed to boost sub weapons. I'm actually using them now and thinking what's the best option for encounters.

I just defeated the 5 boss gauntlet, then found my first prisoner, and went back to earlier stages to find secrets. Playing as Maria seems to be the easy mode, but pretty fun. She has that slide I wished Richter had.

>>11828758
any tips for Death's first phase?

>>11828748 (OP)
Is SOTN good, playing as Richter?

>>11828759
Throw the cross and keep moving to avoid the sickles. The rest is up to skill and focus, pretty much

This game felt less clunky than CV4.

directional whipping takes away from sub weapons.
directional whipping isn't in the spirit of classicvania
>>11828760
it's interesting thats for sure, make sure you know the move set so you can fully utilize it. It makes the game faster paced.

>>11828748 (OP)
for me it's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRHXEtfawVo

>>11828780
Sounds good, I will tackle SOTN next then. RoB's backflip and faster game speed was a game changer, so the expanded move set is something I look forward to.

>>11828748 (OP)
To make it work with the default pad, which is 2 buttons (the power crash is done with Select by the way)

>>11828748 (OP)
>facing left
>whips left
>facing right
>whips right
They didn’t.

>>11828748 (OP)
Damn I thought I learned the headless knight's battle, until he collapsed the roof on me. Seems like every boss has some dragon ball z move up their sleeve. I feel like this is the only castlevania where you have to learn how to play. I guess SOTN has similar design, but I've always ended up OP in that one.

I'm ready to give Rondo of Blood "the Best 2D Action Game" award.

>>11828780
>directional whipping isn't in the spirit of classicvania
SNES/MD have no problem with both sub weapons and diagonal attacking. sounds like it's a PCE problem

I have a theory.
I don't think it's because "it makes the game too easy" or similar arguments about it rendering subweapons useless, which I think it's all debatable (especially when the other CV games all have their own broken subweapons or moves, too).
Castlevania IV actually did influence later games, with Bloodlines having upward-diagonal whipping (though only when jumping, and there was no difference in whip framedata during the process - no instance where the whip did more damage depending on the trajectory/button press timing, a subtle, more intricate mechanic from IV that people often overlook), same with X68000's downward whipping.
But, these games only adopted a partial element of IV's full multi directional whip.
Was this intentionally done to restrain the playable character's abilities? I'm not sure and my theory is that the developers of Bloodlines and X68000 couldn't come up with a satisfactory recreation of the multiwhip from IV, and the reason being that I suspect Mitsuru Yaida, the main programmer for Simon in IV, seems to be a guy obsessed with 8-directional imputs, and likes to polish them a lot to the point it feels natural and seamless. Again, compare the awkward upward diagonal whip from Bloodlines to the flow of the same action in IV.
I'm not saying the coders from BL or X68K were bad but I don't think they cared enough to polish a good multidirectional control scheme, so they only used a lite recreation of it.
Yaida later went on to work on Gunstar Heroes and Bangai O, both games with huge emphasis on 8 directional sidescrolling action.
Anyway, for Rondo, all you need is the Bible subweapon.

>>11829695
I didn't find sub weapons necessary in IV, the whip does the job so well. To be fair, even in CV1 I mostly used them for bosses.
In Rondo they finally feel like a blessing.

>>11829761
Cross is very helpful during the later stages on 4. Especially stage 8.
>In Rondo they finally feel like a blessing.
Bible really breaks the game though. Once you get it on stage 3 there's no reason to ever use any other one, or even use item crash other than for i-frames.
The real black sheep of CV subweapons is knife though. Anybody uses it and keeps it the whole game?

>>11829760
This might be true for Bloodlines, but x68k was designed to fuck you up the ass from beginning to end so I imagine 8-directional whipping was cut for difficulty purposes.

>>11829780
The knife has a niche use against Death in Dracula X and Maxim in Harmony of Dissonance. Other than that I'm drawing a complete blank.

>>11828748 (OP)
>Why did they remove directional whipping?
Because it's a broken mechanic that only brainlets like James Rolfe like.

>>11829826
>AVGN invented liking Castlevania IV
Oh hi, auster

>>11829780
>Anybody uses it and keeps it the whole game?
In rondo and sotn they're fun to use, I'm almost disappointed when the game immediately hands you another weapon. The others still have more utility, since knives are basically just a slightly longer whip.

In rondo there's a part where you get knives before encountering an archer down a hallway. That's about the only scenario that would make you think "need knife"

Maybe if the Castlevania ever got larger screens.. What was that multiplayer CV on xbox? HoD?

>>11829831
He didn't invent it, but anyone who agrees is as reatrded as him.

>>11829848
>reatrded
based auster!

>>11829826
explain how it's broken without using buzzwords

>>11828759
Hit him and don't get hit
Seriously RoB Death is one of the easiest versions

>>11828759
His wonky movement changes depending on whether you're facing him or not. That took me a long time to figure out.

>>11829919

>>11829760
You're a fucking retarded idiot, there's nothing difficult about programming a 8-directional attack, the entire point of Castlevania is limiting the player's controls, obviously it's fucking intentional.
Kill yourself

>>11828759
Jumping to the platforms to change elevation constantly helps keep the scythes from triangulating you and you want to try and hit death while jumping off so you can squeeze in a hit without having to stand still. And while you always have to prioritize dodging you really need to be aggressive at the same time because you have to end it quickly. The longer you have to dodge the more likely you are to fail at it.

And some people will swear by the cross but I've also found the axe works because the upward angle will let you get in hits you couldn't get with a horizontal throw

>>11830195
Learn what 'edgy' means, pendejo

>>11830214
>there's nothing difficult about programming a 8-directional attack
Ok, according to who, you? An angry rando from the internet? Haha.
Programming good controls, in general, is hard as fuck, which is why all these japanese games feel good to play compared to the amount of westjank with barely any control finetuning.

>>11828748 (OP)
It doesnt have 8 directional whip but for some reason they programmed a way to extend your whip range by a whopping 2 pixels by double tapping forward during the attack animation

Rondo, like most Castlevanias, is all about routing the level properly. Pick up the right sub weapon with enough ammo, carry it to the end and every boss becomes a pushover.

>>11830530
Wrong. Rondo hands you the best weapon right before a boss fight..

>>11830530
>>11830758
Rondo removed the stakes of keeping a subweapon by removing the original way su weapon pickups worked in the older games. Fucked up and got a knife that replaced your bible? Worry not, just pick up the bible again.

>>11830769
It's an improvement.
>your bible
>bible again
What's this bible autism?

>>11829760
It's not that they couldn't do it, it's that they decided to do these things specific to each game's design. There's not some deep autism or overly excessive explanation to one single programmer with a fetish for one style of doing specific things; other programmers could've implemented it if they wanted to, but didn't. Note that CV4 had some pretty different level design from all the other games surrounding it, even Bloodlines despite its partial multi-directional whipping, because it was specifically designed with that Simon's moveset in mind. If you added it to Rondo, or the first three games, nothing would stand a chance, and bosses especially could easily be destroyed aside from when their mobility forces you to move.

To declare that it's all entirely Mitsuru Yaida being the root cause of multi-directional whipping is just silly. These things aren't decided in a vacuum by some singular programmer, a programmer is the one trying to enact the vision brought forth by the team.

>>11830778
I said I have a theory. You talk as if you're sure of what you said.
We simply don't know.
I just see that both Bloodlines and X68 implemented diagonal whipping their own way, but it feels less polished/nuanced than in IV. Not just because of the lack of other directions (like BL only doing diagonal up when jumping only), but the very act of whipping up feels different, IV has more frames (and different damage data depending on the trajectory and timing), whereas BL doesn't have all that extra nuances.
Again, I'm not saying it's the ultimate truth, but my own theory.
Considering Yaida seemed actually enthusiastic about diagonal inputs, I don't think it's crazy to think he spent more time polishing up the diagonal whip in IV than Bloodlines devs did with their own diagonal inputs

>>11830778
>These things aren't decided in a vacuum by some singular programmer, a programmer is the one trying to enact the vision brought forth by the team.
Dev teams were really small back then.
Castlevania IV was probably 10 people or so, with Mitsuru Yaida being one of the main guys. The director of the game was also one of the programmers.

>>11828748 (OP)
Directional whipping made subweapons useless and broke the balancing.

>>11828759
Stand in the middle and throw crosses left and right while jumping.

>>11830802
>(like BL only doing diagonal up when jumping only)

>>11831329
Yes I was talking about the whip character. I know Eric has standing diagonal (but he has to stand still, no moving/jumping and attacking at the same time)

>>11830769
Good. Accidentally getting fucked by random subweapon drops was horseshit which is why they removed it

>>11830862
>Directional whipping made subweapons useless

Directional whipping was only as useful as the range of the whip. It didn't render subweapons useless, it just made them ranged secondary weapons which is what they were supposed to be to begin with. Having to lean on them so heavily in the previous games was a flaw because it meant if you didn't have the right supweapon on the right level you were kind of fucked.

Directional whipping isn't OP, it's just not gimped

>>11831542
It absolutely is OP for the fact that it makes both the axe and holy water redundant making cross the only viable "secondary weapon"

>>11828748 (OP)
is this soulslike

>>11831936
No, there's no RPG elements. But yes. And SOTN more so.

>>11831958
i was baiting bro but thanks for the reply

>>11832007
I thought you were asking completely sincerely, but thanks for coming clean.

>>11831921
The axe still has a better vertical reach than the whip does and the holy water has a better horizontal range, and can stun enemies. Both have situational usefulness. It's just that now you're not a dickless wonder who can't hit anything above eye level if you *don't* have the axe, which is a good thing.

The subweapons are supplementary in IV, why is that a problem? Just because you were incredibly dependent on them on I and III doesn't mean that's the ideal arrangement or that it can never be different. Is the whip not supposed to be the main weapon? Why is it weird if you use it the majority of the time? The sub weapons are SUB weapons, i.e. not as good or important

>>11832036
>can't hit anything above eye level if you *don't* have the axe
Just jump dude

>>11832036
Look, just.. stop liking Castlevania 4 ok?
I've seen a youtuber saying it's broken!1!

>>11832041
But I want to whip DIAGONALLY

>>11828748 (OP)
These games were a lot better off without it. Rondo of Blood has the best gameplay compared to the other two big CV of this era. I love that Richter can backstep and backflip. You want more utility then you use your magic. The whip does not need to go in every direction because then why even have the magics in the game? I'm not entirely against the idea of directional whipping if its the SOTN style CV though. Just leave it out of the more linear level based games.

Rondo of Blood > SCIV > Bloodlines

All games are good though.

Genuine question, when did the “internet” turn on Super Castlevania? When I was a kid browsing retro boards 15+ years ago it was widely accepted to be the pinnacle of the series. I feel like no one says that anymore. Am I crazy to still think it is?

>>11833080
The classic series, to be clear.

>>11833080
I don't think Rondo was widely known back then. Most played IV as kids.

>>11833080
It never happened, normalfags still love it and get extremely angry if you point out its flaws

>>11833080
If you grew up with the chronological progression of playing 1-3 and then moving on to IV you usually liked it because it was a natural evolution from the first 3 games. No one thought having more responsive controls and a difficulty level somewhere below "assrape" was a problem. If anything, those were improvements

But as edgy contrarianism and stockholm syndrome regarding difficulty began to take root amongst zoomers who played the games out of sequence IV became a particular target because it's the only classicvania not to have the rigid control scheme and it has the couple gimmicky "look what the SNES can do" levels so there's multiple things for self-anointed purists to get butthurt about.

Basically, it was about the time when people stopped actually enjoying things and started trying to win online merit badges for liking older or harder shit just because it was older or harder.

>>11833151
>gimmicky "look what the SNES can do" levels
Who ever had a problem with those?

>>11833151
We're done pretending Castlevania games are hard

>>11833151
>more responsive controls
Controls in NES Classicvanias are perfectly responsive, it doesn't have lets say more input lag than any other NES game.
>difficulty level somewhere below "assrape"
You have not played any videogames if you think any Castlevania game remotely qualifies as hard

>>11833080
SC4 is divisive because it's so different from every other entry in the series. It's a very "love it or hate it" type game. That being said, I don't think the internet has "turned on" SC4 at all, the majority of people still praise it.

>>11833491
>it doesn't have lets say more input lag than any other NES game.
I'd say they just have less inputs. More time spent locked in animation, less time pressing buttons (to any effect at least)

>>11833496
>It's a very "love it or hate it" type game
I don't see why anyone would hate it. I've played worse platformers and action games on SNES.

I started IV up, and while RoB's gameplay is better, I'm immediately immersed in the levels and atmosphere. Feels like an adventure, more than a gauntlet of challenges. Music and the visuals are top notch. It's also a warmly nostalgic game to me.

>>11833578
Not as challenging or interesting as other CVs. Doesn't even have a second phase for Dracula.

>>11833652
What do you mean by interesting?

>>11833578
>I don't see why anyone would hate it.
I wouldn't say I "hate" it but I don't like it. 8-directional whipping is okay but whip-flailing sucks. It makes it so you can't buffer directional inputs without fucking up your whip swing and it has exactly two use-cases in the entire game (Death and Dracula). Everywhere else it's completely worthless.

The music is mostly not to my taste. Simon's Theme is excellent, but a lot of the other level themes are forgettable or annoying. Too ambient or too grating. Good sound effects, though.

Waaaay too many instakill platforming gimmicks. Level A and B are comprised of pretty much nothing else. Almost every level has at least one slow, boring platforming section, not always dangerous, but always flow-killing. Level 8 can suck my dick, arguably the single worst level in any Classicvania (outside of The Adventure ofc). You could cut the whole thing and the game would instantly go up by two points.

All that being said, I think the game becomes god-tier at the very end. The boss rush from Slogra to Dracula is fucking excellent. Those fights actually make you take advantage of full air control and 8-directional whipping, in stark contrast to the other boss fights which are mostly brainless slugfests that get melted by spamming the Cross. It shows how good the game could have been if they'd focused more on the expanded combat capabilities and less on platforming. The ending with Dracula turning to stone and the credits music is legitimately beautiful.

Despite my bitching, I still recommend the game to people who want to get into the series because a lot of what I complain about (music, emphasis on platforming) are things people end up enjoying. It has a distinct feel and philosophy compared to the rest of the series and you either love those distinctions or you hate them.

>>11833080
it's just this website whose whole personality is being "ummm asksually le best thing is LE BAD!"

most people with friends and lives realize 4 is the best one

>>11833080
You know when. Retarded youtuber releases ignorant video to people who have never beaten the game.

>>11831921
Holy water was always a shit weapon, and only useful for stun locking Frankenstein and Death in CV1, and Dracula in SQ.
Axes are easily the 2nd best subweapon in VI, and in the majority of cases the better option than using upward whipping. First off, is shorter attack recovery time allowing better movement options, especially where you want to throw an axe then move in the opposite direction. Add the III block to that, and you can also get attacks out faster than the whip. Secondly, they rip shit up against several bosses: The water dragons in stage 3, the stone golem in stage 4, the dancers in stage 6, gold bat in stage 9, and that gargoyle asshole in stage B.
the subweapons in VI are very useful, especially if you get the II or III block with them. Using knives, I clock off half of the 1st bosses health before he's even in whip range. Cross with a III block is OP af, but it always has been so that's nothing new.
of course now that I've said that, the convo will instantly change from
>8 way whip negates subweapons
to
>if you use subweapons, you didn't beat the game

>>11833819
shit, typo, I meant 2nd beast subweapon in IV, not VI

>>11833819
>Axes are easily the 2nd best subweapon in VI
Seems to be about the same range as the whip, so it doesn't offer much benefit most of the time..

>>11833491
>You have not played any videogames if you think any Castlevania game remotely qualifies as hard
You are such a faggot.

>>11833679
It's just fairly straightforward aside from gimmick stages, which are gimmicks obviously.
Not really that difficult and not much to do beyond what you do the first time around.

>>11828780
>directional whipping isn't in the spirit of classicvania
John Morris in Bloodlines integrates it really well because of the movement context and thus risk you have to take in order to do it

>>11833905
For me IV mogs the first game in gameplay and level design variety. To be fair the visual and music upgrades alone would suffice.

>>11829695
Bloodlines did it well by making it somewhat limited, SC4 makes it way too powerful.

>>11833080

>>11833935
He had a high opinion of Castlevania 1, but it wasn't grounded in reality. He had the right idea of what it ought to be, though.

I think he got too carried away with his opinions, and ended up being too harsh or controversial at times.

>>11833151
I disliked CV4 since I was a kid. Because the game looks bad, nothing to do with difficulty or diagonal whiping

>>11833491
>uhhh i have hundreds of hours in every CV game they're all easy as shit what's everyone else's problem with them lmao
i despise autists so fucking much

>>11834183
Hear hear

>>11833491
>You have not played any videogames if you think any Castlevania game remotely qualifies as hard

This, CV is pretty average in difficulty by NES standards or the general standards of the time. CV is Ghost'n Goblins but easier.

>>11834238
The standards of the time were machines designed to eat as many quarters as possible extrapolated to 1 hour experiences meant to keep you busy until the next holiday season

>>11828748 (OP)
Directional whipping was a one time gimmick only and not what truly Castlevania was about.

>>11829695
>sounds like it's a PCE problem

legendary axe 2 has a chain, you can whip in multi-directionally. and thats an earlier hucard game

>>11833151
its just that the graphics stopped being impressive and people finally saw it for what it was, a casualized version of 1 that you can beat like half of the bosses by standing still and spamming the whip

>>11834956
I can't be the only one who still enjoys IV's graphics. And to be fair, just wailing on them was a good strategy on both 1 and 3

>IV is apparently the piss easy one
>got stuck on the dungeons level forever and just dropped it
damn

>>11835325
It's known as a hard game outside of the most autistic fans who've memorized the game.

Me and 3 friends took on IV as a challenge, and no one was plowing through the levels.

>>11833739
I also agree with Anon about this game. It's not that 8 way trivializes shit, it's that like whip swing, it's barely used. Also Loop 2 is underrated and much better than Loop 1. Nevertheless, CVX on the SNES remains the superior 16-bit Nintendovania.

>>11835325
yes it is the easy one. its difficulty is comparable to a conventional air control platformer with some tricky late game levels. it just doesn't have the hard walls of stopped progress the other games do outside of fluke jank gimmicks at the very end of the game.

>castlevania IV
It's too easy!
>anything harder than IV
*uses save states*

CV: 8/10
CV2: 5/10
CV3: 9/10
SCV4: 7/10
Rondo: 8/10
Dracula X: 9/10
Bloodlines: 8/10
x68000: 8/10
Adventure: 3/10
Belmont's Revenge: 6/10
Legends: 4/10

>>11835860
>Dracula X: 9/10
*sigh*
here's your (you) you dirty skank

>>11833491
Aaaaand there's that contrarian faggotry I just mentioned. Congratulations on living down to the stereotype

>>11835860
>Dracula X: 9/10

>>11835860
I'd rate Rondo of Blood lower than CV1 but otherwise this is fairly accurate

I also wouldn't call Dracula XX "Dracula X" but I'm tired of fighting this fight. Dracula X is Rondo of Blood

>>11828748 (OP)
What's the best option for a weapon in SOTN, if you want it to play more like a classicvania? Something similar to a whip, preferably available early.

>>11833914
this is the only correct thing to say about my post

>>11836413
japanese castlevania naming scheme is utterly fucking retarded

>>11833819
>Holy water was always a shit weapon
Holy Water was phenomenally overpowered in C1/C3. Completely trivialized almost every single boss, was good at intercepting birds, melting turrets and knights, etc. No idea how you could possibly claim otherwise.

>it's too easy!
>no wait it gets too hard later!
>no wait but it's not "fair challenge", it's bullshit! Instakill spikes don't belong in castlevania... what? Castlevania 1 had them?... uhhh... Uuhhhhhh...
Honestly, the whole anti-IV "movement", feels artificial and forces. Definition of NPC vocal minority.
Anyway, thinking about it there's basically 0 piece of media that doesn't have detractors in anno domini. Human brains already burned all their enjoyment capacitors in only a decade of social media usage. There's no honest opinions anymore. It's all flamming "hot takes" about how this or that thing many people liked was actually bad all along, and the "arguments" are all shallow, vague comparisons with other games, and contradictions.