Thread 2111920

I am noob how should i approach this battle

>>2111920 (OP)
Yari wall, bait the cav in your spears, use your cav to charge enemy archers

Just hammer and anvil, bro

>>2111920 (OP)
YARI-MAZING

>>2111920 (OP)
Deploy on a hill and wait for the enemy. You have relatively equal archers so you should just win.

The Ashikaga shogunate has fallen....
Billions must commit sodoku....

>>2111920 (OP)
all you have to do is yari wall because the ai never does

>>2111920 (OP)
The AI will just come right back with a full doom stack over and over because the game is shit. However the AI is so dumb it doesn't really matter. You'd have to intentionally play bad or be retarded to lose a battle in Shogun 2.

>>2111920 (OP)
Yari wall, preferably on high ground, and keep archers behind it for support. The high ground should help your matchlock unit do something in the battle.
Let the AI engage your spears -it should hopefully suicide its cavalry by charging your yari from the front- and charge their rear with your cavalry+general.
The AI has no defense against hammer and anvil. You can win every battle in every Total War game with the same strategy so long as you're not too outnumbered or outclassed.

I only ever played Shogun 1. Reading the posts in this thread I have to ask, is the game AI actually this bad? How the mighty have fallen (except not because CA is still making fat stacks of cash).

>>2112275
It’s pretty bad, but competent enough if you don’t spend too much time getting good. I’m not joking when I say that by the way. CA games are generally more enjoyable when you have a very basic understanding of the mechanics. The more you learn the easier and less enjoyable they become.

>>2111920 (OP)
I'd start with having better army comps

>>2111920 (OP)
WELL HOW THE FUCK DID IT GO ANON????? POST IT

>>2112359
It went well :) I learned about yari wall and how to use it and I wiped out the army :)
Thanks fellas

>>2112275
Shogun 2 has some of the best AI in the 3D era of TW.
>just yari wall bro
Doesn't actually "just work" on the higher difficulties. AI archers will btfo your yari ashigaru if you just wall.

>>2112388
>spamming ashigaru
>bad
なに ? !

>>2112388
It absolutely 101% does. As long as you upgrade their matk and use your general (and your archers) right.

>>2111920 (OP)
SHAMEFURU DISPRAY

>>2112388
That's why you reinforce your yari ashigaru with even greater numbers of bow ashigaru.
The yari only exist to preoccupy the enemy melee and die slowly. The fact that yari ashigaru actually beat samurai in a head on fight because their formation is busted is beside the point, your archers are what's actually doing the killing. As long as you have more archers than the AI, it will always approach through your killing field and die in droves to your archers. You will win the archer shootout by just concentrating fire with superior numbers, and then you can walk around and shoot their melee to death if they aren't done impaling themselves on the spear wall yet.

These two units literally solve Shogun 2's battles. The biggest mistake you can make is not recruiting enough archers. The second biggest mistake is wasting money and army slots on samurai or cavalry

>>2111920 (OP)
yari wall

>>2112514
Shit take. A bit of cavalry never hurts and samurai specialist units kick ass.

>>2112518
Samurai suck, and fuck your mushrooms.

>>2112520
Nah, you're just too much of a moron to handle more than two unit types at once.

Dont forget the Yari Samurai has a mean charge bonus despite being the lowest level samurai

>>2112514
>not recreating pike and shot with long yari ashigaru and matchlock ashigaru
Then play the Rising Sun mod and gun down Korean peasants or hordes of Ming. Pretty kino.

>>2112592
>matchlock ashigaru
As in regular non oda/otomo mashigaru?

>>2112514
Cavalry and samurai are fine but they should be used in small numbers and for specific roles. You can't fill a whole army with those units, not because they suck but because it's a waste of gold when Yari Ashigaru are so crazy cost efficient. They help spice up the gameplay and speed up battles, and Bow Samurai in particular far outclass Bow Ashigaru so recruiting those once you reduce their recruitment time is a pretty good idea.

>>2113148
Pretty much but there are exceptions. Oda bow ashigaru and chosokabe bow samurai for example.

>>2113148
IIRC bow Ashigaru are most cost-effective but outranged by bow Samurai. It can be good to have one bow samurai unit in your army just because it breaks the AI when you outrange them but otherwise massed Ashigaru just win the shootout.

The problem is model count. Ashigaru have a higher model count, so they both shoot more arrows and survive more return fire. Samurai have a small additional saving roll vs arrows because of their armour, but it doesn't amount to enough to offset the raw difference in fire volume. Only Naginata Samurai get a hidden save roll against missiles specifically but it's like 30% so it's still not actually enough to make them absorb ranged fire the way that shielded units can soak missile ammo in other TW games. Plus since Ashigaru are so much cheaper, you can afford to field more armies with them and thus do more on the map.

But really for me the most important thing was replenishment. Ashigaru replenish fast anywhere on the map, while Samurai take ages to recover their losses unless you rotate them back to a Dojo settlement. Actually that doesn't matter as much for archers since they won't tend to take many casualties compared to melee.

>>2113238
Sorry but that's garbage. They have the same range while samurai bows usually fire twice as fast and benefit even more with tech since that's % increase on higher base. They also fully replenish with rank 1 archery dojo which is very cheap and fast to setup. But the real kick in the teeth comes when you look at their base attack and morale and then recruit them in a province with a master weaponsmith and a jujutsu encampment. Doesn't work on most players, or at least it didn't but superb archers that have base mattk 11-12 pre experience and other things make for a hell of a deathstack.

>>2111920 (OP)
You got missile superiority.
Advance with archer line with spears behind them, the guns at the back with the general.
The cav is scripted to try and flank you. Intercept them with some spears and have the guns fire at them. Once the AI starts to bumrush charge you with all units (they will), just keep the archer back and spears front.
Day 1 simple stuff.

Going forward, make sure to have some artillery in all armies. Just one. This will force AI armies to charge you, even if you're the one attacking. You just sit on a hill and fire down.

>>2113248
Samurai archers pretty much always win against ashigaru archers due to to accuracy and more importantly their armor. It takes a lot more to kill a Samurai.

>>2113285
Yeah. And you'd expect them to win a shooty match but with their stats being so alright from the get-go if you go all out into mattk buildings they're basically katana samurai with a ranged attack.

>>2111920 (OP)
I presume that triangles in those units indicate experience. Does experience make much difference? Like how effective will 4 triangles be compared to 1 triangle? 140% 200% 400%?

>>2113385
https://shogun2-encyclopedia.com/how_to_play/031_enc_manual_army_experience.html

>>2113386
Those don't make any sense.
Melee attacks are
>lvl 1: 1
>lvl 2: 2
>lvl 3: 3
>lvl 4: 4
>lvl 5: 4
>lvl 6: 5
>lvl 7: 6
>lvl 8: 6
>lvl 9: 7
no linear progression, gay

>>2113387
Thats not the only stat that changes on level up, and the smaller the gap between best and worst, the more important actual strategy is. Well, each game has their cracked units, but the smaller the gap thr more useful non-cracked units are. This means combined/supporting arms strategies are a lot more fun since using them doesnt put you in as much of a disadvantage as it would in a game like M&B where using anything but your culture's specialty is kind of a waste. There you can just focus on huscarls, or rhodonk sharpshooters, or those swadian cav guys that are still god amognst men whole dismounted.
In a game like shogun 2, if you choose the Date and go full no dachi(which is all hammer and no anvil) youre gonna have a bad time. The "gay" level ups mean you have to still strategerize after leveling up. Levwling up just open a unit up to more strateric possibilities. You still have to employ the same tactics, but now that you left flank is sloghtly stronger than it was, you might be able to get away with a strategy that would have been riskier before hand.

tl;dr: yari wall is aight, but the real magic happens when its probably supported by other dudes.

>Victorious warriors win first and then go to war while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.
-Leonard Nimoy, Civ4

>>2111920 (OP)
Send the saved game file to LegendofTotalWar and see how he will manage it

>>2112611
Don't forget Ikko-Ikki Ashigaru. More men and morale, they are so busted with relevant campaign building upgrades.

>>2116193
Not a fan of their ranged ashigaru. Archers are fun with upgrades but their matchlocks are unbearably awful even for most gun units. Pain in the ass to setup as well. Exceedingly funny when you cover 5 wall segments with one unit, I'll give you that lol.

Hattori matchlocks on the other hand are very entertaining.

>>2116215
They have Fletchers in their starting province though, and max upgrades are like +40 accuracy or something insane.

>>2116217
The accuracy isn't the problem brother. Their reload starts at 5 iirc and caps out at like 8-11. You can't even stand and fight more than one or maybe units on how many models there are.

How do I play otomo without feeling like a cuck? I dont even like play hata clan descendants.

>>2112275
The AI is better than Medieval 2 or Rome 1. In Shogun the AI actually turns formations around to meet flanking and rear attacks in my experience. The posters above you probably didn't even play the game

>>2116448
Did those actually improve combat effectiveness or was it just some accessory deal shilled by Big Matchlock to squeeze more silver from government contracts?

>>2116457
>his musket doesn't have a pimp cane

>>2116457
Monopods for early guns makes sense when you remember you had to aim for like 10 seconds
Lets not even accound for how big and unwieldy those guns are

>>2116215
You can just field an entire army of bow monks. With all the bonuses and you outranging everything enemy armies will just die and route before reaching you. In all my games I just use ashigaru units before full swapping to some endgame elite unit to fuck around. Mid tier units never were really worth it in campaign.

>>2116442
You would need to show more deference to the emperor who is actually living near you than some distant figure like the pope.

>>2116442
>How do I play otomo without feeling like a cuck?
Crusade with your 13 armor Tercos.

>>2116457
Early muskets and arquebuses were heavy as fuck and with a slow match you didn't instantly fire upon pulling the trigger so having a stabilizer definitely helped.

>>2116681
Their early game is filtering me. I do great on the field with armies comprised of 4 musketeers and 6 yari, but the grander strategy is kicking my butt.

>>2116716
You're located right next to the major sea trade lanes so you just want to consolidate your immediate position, rush to the foreign trade port to maximize income from european trade and build a navy to protect your seas. Use trade money to slowly dominate your corner of Japan. If all goes well you should basically reach a point where the only land approach to you is a chokepoint controlled by a single fortress that you can just hold indefinitely with a cheap stack and you can focus your economy on dominating the seas.

There are two naval chokepoints on the map up a little past your starting position. Both can be effectively blocked with 3 fleets overlapping their control zones. Use a real fleet in the middle, and a single gunboat on each side and the AI will never attack your cordon because the main fleet will be able to reinforce. Their pathing will just look to bypass your ships to snipe your trade port, but when it can't because there is no valid path, it breaks and just stops moving its ships. Easy naval dominance.

>>2116719
Ive got a pretty decent start now. Combined my 2 starting armies at the north town, Buzen, and the waited for shoni to siege and then counter rushed both their provinces. Split up the remains of that army to suppress the dissent in Shoni towns and managed to get 6 matchlock in each of my starter provinces to defend against the inevitable war with sagara and the murder stack eventually coming from Ouchi. Currently reinforcing them with some yari ashigiri so its not just matchlocks.

Was having trouble suppressing the rebellions while still collecting taxes while still being able to defend effectively against Ouchies and the other poeple on my island that declare war on me after taking out the Shoney's. Ill eventually get the Naban Quarter built, but my money is needed elsewhere right now. While I would love to rush Naban Trade Ships and get filthy fucking rich owning all the trade ports, I dont think I can do it while not dying.

>>2116716
Muskets suck early, they're great for castle defense only really. Turtle up, kill an enemy stack then go counterattack with yari bow/spear.

>>2116716
When the Honshu clans declare on you just turtle up and rape their sieging armies with small gun garrisons. While you hold them at bay with a skeleton crew, consolidate Kyushu and take the southern trade nodes. You want to build up to max stack trade fleets on every southern node while your nanbans form a wooden wall (literally, you want a bunch of stacks of 1 of them just close enough together so no one can go around them)

Also pro-tip, ship cannons were massively nerfed in the last S2 update, but if you still want the massively expensive upkeep Black Ship for style points, you can capture it as soon as it spawns via autoresolve with 19 trade ships.

>>2116763
>>2116746
in case you didn't know it was possible, you can stretch out your defensive lines on walls if you have a more limited number of units. Helps to get as much firepower on the walls as possible since only the front line is firing.

>>2116716
I usually abandon my capital, migrate north and consolidate kyushu asap counterclockwise. Shitton of priests, church in every odd province. Satsuma has iron and a bit of cavalry from there helps a ton to mitigate your bad starting honor/morale.

>navy
I never bother with it. Everyone hates you and the number of ships and whack-a-mole required counters most of the income you'd get. Also AI is nuts and overpays for horses and you have early access to those.

>>2116763
Otomo ones are quite decent.

>>2116763
My goto field strategy with them has been to use them as skirmishers out front, 3 deep. Then I have yari ashigari squares behind and inbetween the musketeers. So after they fire their volleys they fall back inbetween the yaris moving up. Its easy to move some yaris around to defend the flank vs their cav, the bring the other end around to hammer. Ive had great results with it against armies of similar sizes, or slightly stronger. Its kinda weird though because I know Id get more decisive victories using bowmen. Their disadvatanges are too prominent at the moment, and its reducing their tactical viability for me. Defences, they do seem op, but offensiving has been slow and the turn timer is stressing me. Maybe I just dont have enough(read: any) artillery to make this strat work. Its the king of battle for a reason.
>>2116779
>ship canons were nerfed
damn, I mean its a game and all and fun is great(especially if youre playing as the nippon navy specialists), but like... columbus didnt *row* the ocean blue in fourteen hundred ninety-two. Gun powder should be worth whoring youself out to the portuguese for.

>>2116794
>I never bother with it
Not to be an asshole but that's horrible advice, you can block all enemy passage south with like 4 Nanban ships, less if you don't bother blocking them from landing on the Northern coast of Kyushu.

>>2116798
The Nanbans are still way better than everything else and worth getting, the Black Ship just can't decimate everything opposing you before it gets close anymore. The crew matchlocks are also way more important.

>>2116800
Right back at you pal. Trade requires not being at war and between difficulty, realm divide, everyone hating on your christian ass and the ai in general being unreliable I'd rather take it as a bonus rather than build around it. It's good money when it works, no argument, but I'll just invest in solid armies and take his actual cities instead of spending a ~third of my income on fleets.

>b-but he'll naval invade
And he'll die to one of several ashigaru stacks I need to keep behind to deal with the buddhist rebels anyway.

>>2112275
I started playing Total War with Empire/Shogun 2 and now I exclusively play Shogun 1/Medieval 1. It's bad. I can't touch the 3d games without thinking of how badly they fucked everything up.

>>2116806
>Right back at you pal. Trade requires not being at war and between difficulty, realm divide, everyone hating on your christian ass
You're right next to three trade posts, no one was talking about trading with actual clans. Kyushu has always been easy mode for this reason.
>And he'll die to one of several ashigaru stacks I need to keep behind to deal with the buddhist rebels anyway
Your garrisons should be a handful of matchlock Ashigaru, and conversion is insanely fast if you're doing it properly. My first every campaign when I had no idea what I was doing I turned half of Japan into rebels with a bunch of priests.

>>2116811
Take a step back and reread what I wrote. Sure, it can make money, if you invest heavily into navy and turtle for few dozen turns to align with converting everything to 100%. I play more aggressively than that and don't enjoy playing both land, agent AND naval whack a mole with most of japan by turn 15-20, clear? As for backline armies I just reuse the pre-upgrade veterans now pulled from the main stacks.

>muh trade nodes
>one trade post
Anon... The guy in that related did mostly what I'd do.

>>2116802
Good, cuz thats what Ive been doing. Got one on a trade port right now. Didnt really give me as much money as I had hoped for... but its fucking korea, theyre probably trying their best.
I am really, really struggling with the Sagura murder stack and trying to make a play for Higo to take all of Kyūshū(the island you start on). Im in 1554 already and haven't really done much :|
So its like... holy shit i only have 80 turns to takeover half of japan.
Meant to click long campaign, but drinkin and forgot so gonna carpe diem.

My current position is
>6 yari and 4 matchlock ashigaru with generals in each Shoni towns
>8 & 6 w/ general in Buzan defending the straight
>10 & 8 w/ 2 generasl in the capital ready to move out as an 8&6 to assaultKyūshū provinces
The main problem is that even though I can easily overwhelm them, I have to do so from a flanking position between shoni-west and my capital. Moving a 6&4 from shoni-west and the 8&6(or even the 10&8) from my capital would overwhelm them, but due to the flankiness of it it allows them the opprotunity to sally out and fight one then regroup for the main assault from the other. My finances are shit. I dont have that much reserves and at maxtax Im pulling in 200 a turn... I deally I could have enough reserves to destation all my troops and hit them with everything Ive got while eating the loss, but I dont have that much reserve and building it up is taking too many seasons.

I could try declaring a defensive war(???) if the ai will fall for that??? Then counter charge their cities flank as their mirder stack is killing itself on one of my forts. Or I could try to just patiently reinvest my money in more nanban tradeships to get more income per turn and then make big plays with grwat income to solidify my position for a mad dash towards kyoto in the final years. Ive got all my provinces converted, but taking the armies out makes me have to drop taxes and Im only pulling in 200 at max...

>>2116816
(cont. I guess)
okokok, so Hizen(the town formerly known as Shoni-West) is cool if I remove their entire army at maxtax. So Im circling them around to Bungo to meet up with the 8&6+son(for a total of 14 yari, 10 matchlock, 3 archer ashigaru and their 2 genrals) there so I can try and assault the Sagara from a unified front while enticing their murder stack with the undefended Hizen. One thing I'll need to keep an eye out for is my unit's general lack of experience. They get routed a lot easier than I expect going 1v1 with the shagara armies that have been tempered on the Ito.
Also have another Nanban ship in the works for another tade port.

Once I take Higo, I'll wait for reinforcements from Taukushi(army is exact same as pictured), leave some behind for stability, and then finish them and start contemplating my desire for Ito. Recently hired the bowmen just because their ability to skirmish is better :/

>>2116824
Grow a pair dude

>>2112251
Shhh! The children are playing, dont spoil their fun!

>>2112514
yari samurai do not exist to charge head on into the enemy they are there to plug gaps, react to enemy cavalry, take opportunistic charges, and independently maneuver this is why they have a sprint ability
katana and naginata samurai are for frontal assaults

>>2112520
katana samurai are absolutely worth the gold
look at the successful multiplayer formations because they are not just ashigari spam

You dont want upgraded accuracy on gun units.

Gun units dont use the accuracy stat the same way bow units do. Instead they have a very high chance of outright killing a dude. Therefore Accuracy does nothing. If you wanna go guns, the better path is to upgrade their armour and survivability.

I am not entirely sure on this, but it seems my experience.

Also Matchlock Kachi? Is it me or is it useles?

>>2116898
Accuracy =/= missile damage, it's just that most gun units don't have the range and or fire rate to fully exploit it. Matchlock monks are really good with it and matchlock ashigaru are usable with it.

>Matchlock Kachi
You know you shouldn't use them as line infantry, right?

>>2116814
>Take a step back and reread what I wrote. Sure, it can make money, if you invest heavily into navy
Spamming trade ships to rush onto the nodes isn't "investing heavily into navy"
>muh trade nodes
>one trade post
Actually I had all trade nodes, the game had (or still has? Seemed less common) a glitch where your trade fleet would randomly deactivate and be stuck on the trade post and need to be deleted and replaced.

>>2116816
>>2116824
Max taxes with oversized garrisons are not ideal. The way all your units will fight to the death if in the top level of a fort makes generals unnecessary for defense. You could probably fend off 20 stacks with 4 matchlocks, 2 yari ashigaru, and the garrison. Remember to utilize the garrison because it's going to come back at no cost, so best to have their ashigaru in the front line.
>Also have another Nanban ship in the works for another tade port.
I'd recommend slapping 1 Nanban down at all the chokepoints like between Kyushu and Honsu and on the Eastern coast of Kyushu while you use full stacks of regular trade ships (or red seal ships when you unlock them) rather than Nanbans. Though one Nanban and a bunch of trade ships does make for a good precarious trade node setup, you could get a fleet composition like that when your main four nodes are taken and send them to the Western and Northern node.

>>2116891
Anon, players can actually walk around yari walls.

>>2116916
I don't know whether you'll understand me more clearly if I wrote it in hiragana. Early game you're not getting much from those nodes without ports and trade deals since their income scales of that plus there's the ship recruitment and upkeep. And there's the hassle of chasing raiders or date or some shit sending fleets and agents from the other side of the map to annoy you. Mid game you're getting enough income from fields and markets to not bother. You could play nice for a awhile but legendary ai will declare war as often as you'll see a shitpost on /v/, especially on a christian clan.
Not spending limited early funds on navy means more army earlier means more territory means more army means more territory. Navy slows that snowball.

For the last time. It's alright but like most gun units it comes online so late that you can safely ignore it and not have any problems. And it's not like rome where you can use fleets to conquer cities or have that busted fots bombardment so I'd absolutely 100% rather have two-three more stacks than pay for the fleet that doesn't help my land war.

>>2116930
Trade ships are incredibly cheap, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to get on those nodes asap while continually building more trade ships until they are full stacks. It's less important for factions that aren't based on Kyushu, but for those that are it is way too good to ignore.

>>2116934
I get what you're saying but AI will contest those nodes and if you want to win vs their ship spam, and if you up the difficulty and mori doesn't die it's going to be a nasty spam, you need resources you could've used elsewhere. For example to deal with the shimazu gorillion katana samurai death squad nearby. And you sure as hell not going to keep those nodes with trade ships alone. Nanban trade ships are an option but those are much more expensive than the shitty 100/50 ones and screw a money making operation that needs 50 turns to break even on investment. Comparatively fields give food and the earlier you get and upgrade them the more they give down the line, with zero hassle involved.
You can do it, like I said dozen times already it can be good source of income but you don't have to if you landgrab early enough. Especially if you expand to shikoku before it consolidates.

Do you get what I'm saying?

>>2116944
Don't you get a Nanban via event? In either case, it doesn't take that long to get a Nanban up, and once you do it takes a single one at the strait to block 90% of enemy ships. Eventually you'll need like two more for the Eastern side of Kyushu.
>it can be good source of income but you don't have to if you landgrab early enough
It's more profitable and easier than extreme rapid expansion which pisses everyone off and leaves you with a bunch of land that isn't that profitable because of all the garrisons you need. Especially when you aren't even the same religion it's better to get used to the slow and steady start. Besides, you're already blitzing to take Kyushu as quickly as possible.

>>2116947
If it is I don't think I ever got it. There's an event for black ship sighting but that's something different, otherwise you recruit those for like 1200/250 a piece.

Now I don't know if you're playing on a lower difficulty (because 1-2 nanban trade ships ain't gonna hold 3-4 full fleets coming their way each turn) or if you modded the node income so it's worth having secondary blocking fleets (and you don't consider that a serious investment lol) but I'm tired of talking to you anon. You do you man, if it works for you all the better. I think it's a waste of resources and shooting yourself in the foot early on but hey, you're using cannons in your armies so maybe you have some forbidden iga techniques I'm not privy to.

>>2116953
>because 1-2 nanban trade ships ain't gonna hold 3-4 full fleets coming their way each turn
Skill issue
>you're using cannons in your armies
You shouldn't keep referencing the image that I said was from my first ever Total War campaign, which was 17 years ago, that I only posted to demonstrate the effectiveness of priests. These are from my relatively recent Otomo campaign
>>2116681
>>2116779

>>2116953

Not him but I usually avoid the naval gameplay due to it being bugged to the point where it is as fun as pulling out teeth.

Shitty bugged AI with the enemy ships scattering and sailing to the borders of the map. Easy win? Yes. Fun? Hell no.

I do spam tower bunes when I get gunpowder. Makes it trivial. The trade can be good money post realm divide.

>>2116958
>I do spam tower bunes when I get gunpowder. Makes it trivial.
Yeah I'm not advocating for always investing in navies, the trade posts you can get in the South are just too valuable to not get. And Nanbans don't take that long to get if you were going to go Christian.

>>2116960

The real shame is the bad AI making it unfun I think. If people play dumb its fine, whatever. But man fix your bugs.

They did give up on Naval Battles in later games. Sadly.

>>2116956
>>2116953
What wrong with euro cannons? A range of 500 seems great for forcing enemy advances so you dont have to deal with them turtling on a hill when youre the attacker. I would also imagine liberal cannon use would make sieges a lot easier without needing to have as many people to displace a large entrenched force.

>>2116964
It's mostly just that they aren't terrible effective in field battles and can be very terrain dependent. You are right though that it is good at killing cavalry, forcing the enemy to attack you, and easily destroying castle fortifications which can neutralize towers, open gates, and nuke units on the walls.

>>2116956
I agree. It's a massive skill issue to waste resources on a opening that slow to reimburse you when you can just take more provinces.

>>2116958
>The trade can be good money post realm divide.
Oh yeah, absolutely. But you have a whole bunch of ports and resources at that point. But if you go ham on it early you're getting peanuts post ship upkeep. And that's on a freaking silk node.

>>2116964
They slow your army by ~15-20% movement on campaign map, they're wildly inaccurate, they don't have that much ammo and they don't do too much damage when they actually hit. They're neat vs walls but that's about it. If you want to trigger enemies into charging you a couple horse archers will do just fine. If you want arty firerockets or big gunners if shimazu will do so much more for you, if your game lasts long enough that is.

>>2116969
>They slow your army by ~15-20%
man, thats extra gay. If they just sucked all by themselves Id bring some around for trolling while my nippon pike&shot formations march around with ocarina fifers. I mean it makes sense cuz heavy, but like damn, if you can afford a cannon you can afford a wagon.

>>2116920
and in singleplayer players have functionally unlimited budget for their stacks
do you really need 8 stacks of ashigaru spam or are 6 stacks with samurai enough? moreover which is more fun to play with?
a few units of samurai can significantly compliment a mostly ashigaru army - they give you the ability to break any centre or do devastating envelopments
i have regularly seen katana samurai scoring ridiculous kill counts in large battles
in the late game i typically replace all the ashigaru in my daimyo's army and maybe #2 stack with gold armor naginatas just because it's more fun having an elite army while you face off against 4 ai stacks of trash

>navy
one benefit of having naval control is it makes reinforcing your front much easier and faster from your gold armor/attack/accuracy/etc provinces

>>2116973
Yeah...

>>2116969
>It's a massive skill issue to waste resources on a opening that slow to reimburse you when you can just take more provinces
The skill issue is not doing both at the same time

Nice shitpost pal.

>>2116974
>i have regularly seen katana samurai scoring ridiculous kill counts in large battles
I recently had 1 unit in a pretty huge battle and wasnt too sure what to do with them so had them defending my right flank. After the clash happened and they made sure the rightmost yari wall was good, the ran out and routed like 10 fucking units. Theyre pretty great. Need to start using them more, degozaru, but Im also kinda retarded and go all-in on a simple supporting arms tactics more often than not.

>>2116987
Try marathons if you get a chance. If they close in they'll murder fucking everything around.

>>2116987
they are much easier to use than yari samurai albiet harder to use than naginatias
just throwing them into the thick of it alongside your yari wall will see them do good damage without being vulnerable to cavalry but you lose the opportunity to envelop your enemy
naginatas are braindead and you can just use them as yari wall + since they are good against everything and the tankiest normal unit in the game
you probably don't want to spam katanas even just one or two units will amplify your yari wall immensely but then the ai builds very poor armies and you can get away with almost everything

spam katanas and simply charge the enemy

stupid heathens

>>2117343
jesuit dog

r8 my new stack

I know euro cannons suck, but im thinking the tercos will let me get away with it. Having 20 cannons makes my dick hard, so the downsides are kinda whatever. Went with ashigaru yari simply because of unit #s.
So the idea is cannons out front and molesting the enemies advance with donderblusses screening. Once the enemy approaches, the fifer fifes and tercos march out front. White of eyes and whatnot and a rapid fire volley is sent. My yari will be left, right, center left, and center right squared up ready to rush out and soften charges as my tercos switch to melee. Gonna see if I can find a good army to test it on.

Working on another army below it that will be
>1 General
>1 donderbluss screening
>2 light/yari cav(I gotta build a dojo in my horse prov) as shock troops
>4 euro cannons
>6 yari ashigaru
>6 tercos
Pretty similar but it give me more baskets for my eggs with the bigger yari force and some more calvary. Gonna sail the both all the fuck up north because Date wanted to fuck around. All my provinces are defended and Ive got navel superiority(which Im still increasing), plus pretty soon Im gonna have a surplus of 14 food to play with. Feeling confident about dividing the realm and then making it defend on two fronts.

>>2117406
sorry, come again? having a hard time hearing you over all these explosions.

>>2111920 (OP)
Rush individual units, defeat them in a few seconds with overwhelming force and repeat. The balance is just extremely overtuned and shitty Rock paper scissors.

>>2117476
holding the line is more fun tho

>>2116549
The early to late swap was an issue for so fucking long
And it's not even the unit design's fault
>Fucking gay supply lines bullshit
Among other things meant you could only field so much, and winning most of the time is just bringing more shit vs less shit
Imo it wasn't until 3K that cavalry were actually cool
>Monstrous charges on fleeing enemies,
>Unbelievable morale damage on flanking charges
Even in WH3 it took a hot minute to make cavalry work
I'm just annoyed it took until wh3 to address how unfun supply lines are
>And then it was a tweak able feature in pharaoh
If pharaoh is/was a testbed for campaign mechanics, then if they ever make a new tw game then it will truly be good if it has cool/interesting battles that aren't just
>dudes, chariots, commanders getting stuck and dying

>>2116692
>The flintlock whacking the gun downwards
>The powder going off when it feels like it, anywhere from somewhat immediately to a few seconds later
>Bullet travelling out somewhat inconsistently so you still need to hold the damn thing on target as you are blinded by the smoke from the powder at the front or at the match if you're shooting a powder/match gun
It's a wonder anyone thought that shit was useful

>>2117463
managed to not get any of my guys routed employing that general idea. The field was setup kind weird to where on my left was a big hill, and on my right was cliffs. Setup all my cannons on the hill to the right, and then the tercos coverver pretty much all of it. One of my donderblusses took care of their cav trying to swing wide of the clifffs on the right. Their main body hit right where I hoped it would inbetween the hill with my cannons on the left and the cliffs on the right. I had my yaris there to rush out and the tercos do great with support in melees. Brought the hillside turcos around to flank one they commited to attacking my mid-right by the cliffs. Had my general shock cav with the right flank yari and tercos that got ignored because of the cliff. Cannons got a lot of use just working their archers until I got around to the counter attack.
The stack bar pasted on top is whats left after chasing down the handful of routed enemies Could have done a lot better, but it was decisive enough for me I guess. Feel like I coulda done better with just a bunch of yari, bows, and enough cav or whatever to get my point across.

>>2117463
I'd recruit those tercios with gold matk and drop the yaris for yari cav.

>>2116445
Relative to Empire and Napoleon the AI in Shogun 2 is more competent but it's still very easily exploitable and prone to making stupid decisions. Beating it is not as simple as "just spam yari wall bro", but the AI has no answer to basic tactics.

>>2117581
Stop blowing smoke up your own ass

I'm gonna go out and say it: ashigaru are simply not good enough infantry come late game. The only reason people push them is due to AI being unable to play around yari wall.

Samurai occupy less space on the world map and have superior momentum.

Defending with ashigaru, especially matchlocks, is superior, however. I would still not leave solely ashigaru to defend a key settlement tho

dogshit take

>>2117627
You can say a lot of things but that doesn't mean you're right. They're good enough while cheap and spammable, and that's all that matters most of the time.

>>2117672
Most of those bonuses are not actually exclusive to ashigaru and/or situational. They benefit proportionally more because they are flat increases but you could be making giga samurai (or monks) out of those built up recruitment provinces. LIke the anon said ashigaru mostly overperform because AI is bad at countering yari wall.
Also shogun's map is long and narrow by nature you just don't need that many armies to push. I don't know about you but I'm not really a control large army enjoyer and prefer having a stack of higher quality units that's easier to control even if it's not the most efficient in terms oif upkeep cost rather than eight thousaaand ashigaru.
On that note, shogun is like the on game I don't play on ultra as a deliberate choice. The maps are too small for that kind of unit count.

>>2117686
And that's perfectly reasonable. There's no argument about samurai or monk units not being superior in their specialized niche but ashigaru will abso-fucking-lutely get the job done if you give them some spit and polish. And on a budget at that.

>AI is bad at countering yari wall.
Nah. Vanilla AI is crap at building armies or leveraging commander or unit abilities or recruiting in dedicated provinces. That's why you get to send shimazu or date rape brigates packing with peasants armed with pointy sticks. If you faced no-dachchis or even regular katana sams with matk in the high 30s that wouldn't be viable. [spoiler[And then motherfucking oda or ikko-ikki enter the chat.[/spoiler]

> I don't know about you but I'm not really a control large army enjoyer and prefer having a stack of higher quality units that's easier to control
I use both types with additional cavalry support. Press for pause is a thing my brother in Amaterasu.

>mod matchlock units to range 200
Yay or nay?

>>2117832
Thats what it should be. Probably wont hit much but the first volley sbould be fired when the enemy army is at 2 cho

>>2117843
>>2117843
It hits almost every shot. We're talking 50-60 DED per unupgraded imported ashigaru fire by rank salvo.

>>2117857
læm

>>2117860
Er du bøsse eller hva?

Yari sams are growing on me

Are the hattori as much fun as they sound with the kisho training?

>>2117905
More

>>2117905
They get near guaranteed ambushes and night battles, can deploy cavalry or muskets and snipe the enemy general at the start of battle and their special archers fire while hidden. Whatcha think?

>>2117915
I was thinking more about using the kisho to set up yari sam pits in woods for some tsurinobuse shenanigans

>>2117672
Two armies of ashigaru facing one army of swords will get crushed before they can form up

Being able to break infantry quickly, and being resistant to morale shocks means more chance to snowball 2v1 situations while being resistant to the army melting to the same

Momentum matters a lot.
Being able to concentrate force on one spot matters a lot. These grinding fights where you cannot win quick end up mattering when under serious pressure from multiple armies.

Ashigaru are "win more".

There are exceptions of course. I like yari ashigaru versus cav. i like matchlock ahigarus on defense. I like smothering other ashigarus with loan swords and so on

Ashigaru get the job done, but Id rather not. Theres not a lot the AI can do against a bunch of bow ashigaru being protected by yari ashigaru with a lightcav or two for good measure. Its just not very fun

>>2117940
The fuck are you talking about anon? Of course you're going to beat AI 2:1 with swords.

eto....

>>2117672
there is no reason to train yari ashigaru in the late game except when an ai army slips past you and you need an emergency army
>just spam yari ashigaru from this one province dude
yeah lmao have fun ferrying all your yaris to the front from kyushu instead of just playing normally and pumping samurai from there like a sane person to supplement generic ashigaru armies
a handful of samurai units bolster an ashigaru army immensely by giving you massive mobility and attacking power

i don't know how you retards play but i typically have 1-3 "main" armies with elite upgraded units for attacking and then smaller defensive armies scattered behind them
these defensive armies are typically just ashigaru and ideally matchlocks while the other armies are samurai
if you really are totally devoted the ashigaru then what do you even spend your koku on? do you seriously have hundreds and hundreds of units of yari ashigaru and zerg swarm your enemy rather than build a single katana dojo?

bait used to be believable

>>2117992
That was the blurst battle Ive ever fought. Uesugi declared war on me right as I was about to them. Had 2 armies of peasants, but a solid tactful composition considering its like t10. Uesugi bro comes at me with a stack of 80% samurai. Ive got number but if I was playing his army I would be nervous since he was defending. Ive got number though, and already split in 2 which makes for ideal 啄木鳥の戦法 conditions, which Ive got to since Im Takeda, ya know?

Battle starts, my guys are columned up and ready to rush the hill inbetween our spwans and take a defensive position to minimize the weaknesses if the woodpecker. He just went default full front line to defend with, but I was defendinger than him so he got away with it.
2 light cavs go round the outside, round the outside, round the outside. 2 light cavs go round the outside accompanied by my anvil's hammer's general vecause momma aint raise no bitch.
The Uesugi generals being the based retards that they are ise themselves like normal calvary and flank to meet me round the outside. I do a lil cav maneuvers to outflank them since Im 3v2.
Thats when their enitre main army says "fuck it" and marches towards the calvary kerfuffle, the calvuffle(if you would), was taking place. Being the almost triple digit IQ individual I am, I had my general break off and 1v1 the genral that fell back away from their army, while my 2 light cavs 2v1'd the general closer. 1 group pf yari sams caught up but my brave warriors were able to take many horo-wrapped heads.
>OUR GENERAL IS IN GRAVE DANGER, MY LORD
yeah, in danger of hogging all the glory lmao

That in what lead to the Uesugi army clusterfuck you see in the previous image. As weird as his strategy was, by the time I realized just how much he was willing to commit to this retardation, bot of my armies were way too far back to capitalize on the chaos my 3 cavs made in his massive army.

>>2118075
Then his guys just kinda reforemed on that hill after I pulled my guys out. Eventually brought both my armies up and splite them up with those old cav waiting in the back for the right moment. I dont have a whole lot of experience pressing the advance but felt obligated to at this point. Got to where we were both in eachother's bow range and volleys were being exchanged. It happening on the edge of the battlefield meant I couldnt really send my reinforment cave round the outside so I just said fuck it it sent them center with my starter yari sams going full charge. Then I started my yari ashigaru advances from the front and side. Once both flank had their full attention I sent in my now rested cav from the guys that took both generals to hit a back flank and start clearing routed enemies.
Think my biggest misplay with this assault was just not unwalling my yaris and making sure they were running. Had I paid more attention and gotten them charged faster I mightve made it out without one of my light cavs getting killed. First time I lost a unit in a fight, but Im not used to being the assaulter.

>>2118017
Ashigaru simply aren't that good and the lack of immediate combat power outweigh any potential benefits of low cost and ease of access.

Just try using samurai more. Try stacking bonuses on top of each other.

>>2118340
>Doesn't include the one Hojo exclusive siege unit

>>2118340
Homo clan

>>2118348
Ackhuslly those are on the other side of japan

>>2118351
>lands 3 stacks of ashigaru right next to your capital

>>2118340
I mostly play units with fun samurai and cav units

>>2118385
>*cries*

>>2118387
Bruh. Your great guard?

>>2118388
Great Guard are superior, but much later in the tech tree.
Naginata cav are also a type of melee cav and more forgiving to use. Jack of all trades type thing. Their only real weakness is high cost. I like a couple of them

>>2118475
I like me yari cav much better. They can't fight for shit vs anything that's not also cav but they're so much fun with their gorillion charge triangle trampling entire infantry units in a go or two.

>>2118475
>much later in the tech tree
You get a free unit of Great Guard by holding Kyoto for 4 turns. No buildings or techs needed.
You also triggers Realm Divide but that should be a minor issue.

>>2118482
And I'll get that guy too. I'm just saying Naginata horsemen (trademarked by Ikko Ikki) are a real fun unit to play around with, since they don't immediately melt in melee and (generally) also counter opposite cav

>>2118508
>trademarked by Ikko Ikki
You mean the discount uesugi?

>>2118514
its vice versa. Ikko Ikki have the most diverse unique roster and Uesugi has jack shit ither than gettin pwned by Takeda in the intro movie

>>2118516
Uesugi is hard mode due to every vassal instantly betraying you and dragging you into wars, but yeah theyre a nation with (optional) warrior monks attached.

Ikko Ikki is a gang of warrior monks who just so happen to have a country attached

>>2118516
All the drawbacks of being christian without any benefits and shittier version of every unit in the game vs half price bitching monk units.

You failed to convince me anon.

>>2118530
Bow ronin are good due to better stats. They can easily win duels.

Ikko Ikki ashigaru get swords, are better meat shields and their church building is arguably better than Christian churches.

But yes, it's hard mode. Your eco is cucked without metsukes, you need real good ninjas to counter kill enemy ninjas who will rape your shit and so on.

Christianity is a meme way to play anyway. Extremely gay

Shogun 2 economy is ass. Battle is a complete chore in the game considering how much you need to do it.

>>2118530
Yeah, theyre actually unique and utilize the religion mechanics because theyre the literal premium monk clan. If wither of the two is a generic discount its the vanilla version with no uniques or religion mechanics. And while you might not get tercos from Christianity, rebellions are still plenty OP.

>>2118538
Ikko rebellions becoming part of your faction is a nice touch
Enables you to get some good units early (tho your economy won't be able to afford them)
>>2118537
Growth as a mechanic is cool. Soil as a territory to capture is good. Being able to grow your economy by stacking growth and stability is rewarding

>>2118534
They have roughly points 5 more stats for 30% less models. Don't be stupid.

>without metsukes
Fucking lol I forgot they don't get those. Jeebus Crust and you're actually advocating for them? Troll someone else retard.

>>2118543
>Ikko rebellions becoming part of your faction is a nice touch
Its ridiculous compaired to the Otomo style zince you proc rebellions to get suppression armies so you can keep advancing you murder stack without having to wait around supressing and getting a temple/sake den built first or having to do a whole bunch of creative accounting and metsuke spam. Tax exemption can be pretty useful if you dont mind micro managing it.

>>2118546
Ikko Ikki enable or force a very fast style of play. Everyone declares war, you have a very defensible core, rebellions accelerate expansion and you have an early edge over the enemy due to sword ashigaru as well as increased base morale.

I accept your submission and laugh at your womanly deflection to something else entirely.

>>2118559
You post like a giant, gaping pussy. You have a chip on your shoulder.

You should only be allowed two or 3 samurai tier or better units per province you have. When 90% of your population are samurais it kinda defeats the point of em, no?

>>2118577
1 or 2 samurai units per level of dojo wouldn't be a crazy thing at all

>>2118589
>per dojo level
Now were talking. Might need yo look at the economy balancing since it makes building more dojos more necessary, which means less economy buildings, but it would also mean cheaper upkeeps since you cant have 5 stacks full of samurai+ anymore.

>>2118577
>aors and caps already in the game but intentionally disabled

>>2118589
>>2118603
2 per dojo level, and 3 per clan's specialty dojo further encouraging leaning into their niche.

How do I charge my own guys?

So let me get this straight, starting as the Obamas in FotS, in 18-fucking-whatever, on the side of the shogunate that got cia'd into emperor vs shogun because the emperor was pissed togukawa was crashing their economy to larp as cowboys, and I still gotta do a bunch of shit justt for fucking matchlocks despite being american puppets?
The fuck is up with that?

>>2118568
Passive aggressive greentexting is pussy tier posting. Doesn't matter if you are right or not. Its impossible to concede anything to an asshole

you should try samefagging some more
soothe that bleeding butthole

>>2118765
You might be right, but I have no reason to give a (You) to some anon that didnt reply because giving a (You) is admitting defeat(or whatever dumbfuk logic those /gsg/ retards think). That post was in response to the goalpost post(something obvious from context assuming youre not a bot and graduated from elementary school).
Ikko Ikki is NOT the "discount Uesugi"
Uesugi is a fucking neutered faction with 0 uniques because those yidds wanted to shill their Ikko Ikki dlc. Ikko Ikki is just Uesugi but with youre actually able to lean into their niche and become something unique(something that every clan other than Oda and Uesugi has). Ikko Ikki is a truly unique faction while Uesugi is the same boring old shit as any other faction. There biggest argument for Ikko Ikki being the discount faction was the Uesugi being better, on paper(maybe[not at all because rebellions]). This /gsg/ retard thinks being more bland and having 101:1 odds vs 100:1 odds vs the retarded ass enemy AI armies, makes the Uesugi clan more premium than the literal premium Ikko Ikki clan with their unique units and playstyle unavailable to other clans.
The difference between Uesugi and any other clan is just the monk budget. They get monks at a discount. Theyre more of a literal discount clan than any other. I mean, Oda is nothing but a discount clan, but ashigaru are less of a niche than then generalized basic monk units.
Ikko Ikki >>>>> Uesugi unless youre some drooling retard who hates fun and unique clans and needs to auto battle to win campaigns. Addmitedly, losing is no fun, but losing as Ikko Ikki vs Uesugi is complete skill issue. In a battle of optimal stacks between Ikko Ikki and Uesugi, it would all come down to command. Once you factor in the rebelled army to Ikko Ikki, suddenly Uesugi loses all advantage.
Uesugi is the "discount" monk clan, both literally and figuratively.

If you want to play a clan with 0 character, be my guest. I'll stick with the Ikko Ikki.

>>2118833
ugh... I mean... really?! Passive aggressive gif is pussy tier posting bro... doesnt matter if Im off my meds or not.

>>2118550
ikko ikki is easy mode because your ashigaru are way better plus sword ashigaru are broken and you can incite rebellions easily
>>2118546
metsukes are good

Mori, for infinite koku holding all 3 trade routes.

just 16 more turns until gunpowder mastery and I cant test my new stack idea... but the unfortunate problems with real battle tactics is they never nlsurvive the enemy's retardation... but the enemy is just so fucking stupid nothing works and you can get away with anything. Im constantly baffled by them.

>>2118833
I will always play exclusively Tokugawa all other starts are fucking boring or the faction colours are ugly. Legendary Takeda is too hard

Ninja asshole sabotaged your tea house again

>>2111920 (OP)
Yari Ashigaru.
ALL the Yari.

>>2118980
The only time my general has ever been assassinated was Sakamoto Ryoma just after getting out of Shikoku ready to conquer. I was fucking seething I had such a lucky start that is so hard to get on legendary

People who think yari ashigaru are shit in campaign do not understand opportunity cost.
>To even train samurai you need dojos, 850 koku for sword school
>Katana samurai cost 3x more, twice the upkeep and take 2 turns to produce
>Unlike yari ashigaru which you can produce near the frontline, katana samurai have to be transported so there's even more turns where you're paying for the upkeep of a unit that's not fighting
Who gives a fuck if yari ashigaru loses 1 on 1 fights with samurai when you'll have the momentum to snowball a legendary campaign by looting castles constantly.

>download master of strategy mods
>game literally doubles in size and fun
I have never known any other game or mod to come this close to how fun sieges are with guns

>>2119433
I was looking at that yesterdays while looking at mods that add recruitment caps for sams and stuff. How's its stability vs vanilla?

>>2119450
It's perfect. I haven't had any crashes in ages. The game feels really unfair at first until you realize how to play. The biggest changes are
>extra food doesn't result in town growth
this is mostly because there are hundreds of towns and the snowball would be insane
>unrest which acts like a peudo religion
it's incredibly important to carefully build the good buildings that result in unrest until you have the tech or buildings to hold it back
>unit caps
amazing since you can't just spam good shit. Armies feel more natural and thrown together like they were historically
>gunpowder units are amazing
They fixed the biggest flaw in the game in that guns had LONGER range historically than arrows. So they are very viable. Especially on forts. Oh god the forts. It's so fun

Am I crazy or did they patch the game and horribly nerf cannons and European ships in general? You can take out The Black Ship effortlessly with a single fire bow kobaya now.

>>2119505
yeah

I love FotS

>>2119576
you misunderstand. he betrayed the alps.

>>2119587
It was fair because he loved them.

>available retainer
>volcanic pistol
>picture of a colt navy

>>2119635
That aside, having guns as retainers is one of the most based things Ive seen in any video game.

They were the bravest of warriors ;_;
https://youtu.be/1j910eDpkfs

>>2119576
no one asked

gayboy

I love RotS

>>2119775
>t.

>>2119775
may I suggest............... the taiheiki mod

>try to disembark on what is cleary a beach
>almost waste my entire turn sailing all the way around japan instead
>quickly click to stop the 1000knot/hr overland ship because no takesies-bqcksies
>take over enemy port
>try to disembark
>sail all the fucking way around the entirety of japan instead
am I retarded or is it the game? Both? Why is disembarking such a fucking pita?

>>2120305
>am I retarded or is it the game
Yes to both

>>2120406
How does capturing shit works? There is nothing in the internet about it if is just chance based or how the battle goes

>>2120408
Well, naval units work exactly how you'd think. Board and take them. Pirate logic, its easy.
This is the first land unit Ive ever captured in battle, theres 2 things to note:
>it was an auto battle
>it was a parrot gun, arty that is an equipment-based unit

Honestly, I just dont know. I haven't had a lot of chances to auto-battle yet because the odds are horrible vs the reality when you have arty+navel bombardment. Also, the enemy has just now started fielding their own arty so I haven't gotten the chance to figure it out in manual battles.

I will try to capture arty units in manual battles even though its kinda a pain in the ass to flank em with some cav instead of just snipe them with my armstrongs on spawn, but science and whatnot and also try to autobattle some more to see if non-arty land units get captured. In manual battles the just route, but there might be some auto battle magic idk. Probably not, because the parrot rifles being equipment based vs random pike niggas makes sense. Still think its worth autobattling when I can to try and find out. I'll report back after some shenanigans.

>>2120427
auto-battle has given me hundreds of wooden mortars and gatling guns and I can tell manual battles give fucking nothing even when you chase the whole artillery unit down with cav

>>2120431
I just captured a wooden cannon during a manual siege.

>>2120450
When you assault an artillery unit with cav you destroy their guns so maybe you need to shoot them dead or make them route idk

>>2120458
I think I just tossed some pikemen at them. They just sat on the main flag and did nothing the whole battle.

I fucking love artillery.
https://youtu.be/kq47OdyR7CI

>>2121132
I think tosa riflemen are the cooler gay homo strat in fots

>>2121251
I think I heard about them in some yt video. I honestly have no clue what are and arent worth their wages at this point, just that arty wrecks shit and levy guys are fucking worthless. Ashigaru were great in vanilla. 12 bow ashigaru and 8 yari could achieve ridiculous results with a simple protect the archers strat. The fots levies arent worth half their wages though, theyre so fucking bad. I expectected the matchlocks to be bad and the levy to be the goto linemen, but the fire about the same but at least the matchlocks can scrap.

retard

Please help!
I just started trying out Tsardoms and it fucking crashes every turn

>>2121278
Levy Infantry are just useless. Spear Levy have the same cost and tech requirements and will win in everytime outside of auto-resolve. (Auto-resolve hates melee units.)

>>2119421
It matters because Samurai units go hack and slash on basic units. There is two morale modifiers, local unit and global, the more broken units, the more the entire army is also going to break from losing only 5-10 guys.

>>2119421
>People who think yari ashigaru are shit
literally never seen this. the only question is if they are literally the only unit you should build, or if you can use a FEW other units,

>>2119421
very good analysis for the first 10 turns of the game

>>2121426
It's mostly just one retard samefagging

To me its crazy that 20/80 samurai cost as much to upkeep as a full squad.

matchlock ashigaru are garbage and I'm tired of pretending they're not
samurai archers mog them at every turn
t. chosokabe

>>2121851
Bow are only good against unarmored peasants. You need guns against samurai recruited from an Armoury + Master Armourer province.

>>2121851
Play the sengoku mod that is fucking great

>>2121866
Dumbass.

>90k koku in the grainery
>fuck all to do
>unless i declare war on an ally
>or sail halfway across japan
>or just wait a bunch of turns and research new shit for lmao domestics or something
what do?

>>2122028
I invaded my ally. fuk em, just sittin out there every day waving from over yonder and looking all smug being like haha this isnt your front lawn haha
fuk em
Ill kill em all, sons of bitches

When does threatening someone work?

>>2117089
literally me my first campaign playing as shimazu

>>2117463
Unironically, move your Terco production down to the Shimazu capital with max armor and you don't even need yaris. You'll be functionally immune to arrows and anything that makes it into melee won't last very long. >>2116681

>>2118340
>>>/wsg/5951222
>>>/wsg/5951223
>>2118344
Didn't they get nerfed?

>>2118387
>>2118388
>>2118475
>>2118482
>>2118508
*gets two points of bonus vs cavalry in your path*
In hindsight I wish I didn't pick up warcry, just because it starts on cooldown and the cavalry fight often happens before it is off cooldown

>>2121278
>I honestly have no clue what are and arent worth their wages at this point
They're exclusive to Tosa. They have more range and a ridiculous rate of fire. They're supposed to be skirmishers but there isn't really any reason to not use them to just replace your line infantry.

>>2122430
there are less of them but they still crush everything and always get the first shot

>>2121851
matchlocks are the goat for defending sieges

>>2121851
Morale shock as a debuff is good in and of itself.
A flanking matchlock ashigaru with guns will help immensely with rolling up a frontline even if they don't score kills.
Hit them with one volley and then charge in a No Dachi regiment

>>2122757
See pic rel

>>2121866
No you don't Samurai archers slaughter everything while having a ridiculous,and unrealistic, range.

>>2122766
cope and seethe

What I wouldn't give for an Imjin War expansion. I absolutely adore this game, but the game's biggest flaw is the lack of cultural variety (this is why Otomo is so much fun) and I believe a campaign set in Korea and parts of China would help solve this issue.

>>2122808
There was a mod that was decent (Korean bows were op)

>>2122771
>playing without unit micro
Grim

Man, the AIs are piss easy but that turn limit is a massive buzzkill

>hand warmer retainer
>picture of a horse

>>2122971
Jealous?

>>2122950
You can continue past it dumbass

qrd on gattling guns?
Worth the upkeep?
Thinking about give each stack 2

>>2123091
not with a buzz

>>2123239
they are as overpowered as you would expect for a machine gun against peasants armed with spears and muskets

>>2123239
worse than normal cannons
worse than riflemen
disappointing

>>2123657
>disappointing
That's what your parents said

>>2123260
Nice shitpost, for a mongoloid

>>2111920 (OP)
How does this game compare to the first Shogun?

>>2123760
Stop trying to make S1 a thing you dumb fag. It's been more time since shogun 2 than there has been between shogun 1 and 2. Don't pretend like you somehow were living under a rock for past 20 years and are not aware how total war games have looked since then. They are too far removed from each other to make a direct comparison.

Secret recipe to make matchlocks work on open field.

>>2125087
In the rare case you fight a defensive battle in the field matchlocks have a great deployable. Guns shooting from behind a fence with naginata in between them to tie up the enemy.

>>2125087
Just deploy them like this nig and clip the enemies with your cav so they slow down

>>2125087
Try the field command sengoku mod
Gunpowder comes early and samurai units feel more important. The movement speed adjustment is kind of awkward but I really enjoyed the mod

>>2123760
It's definitely made in the spirit of the first game, most notably with the unit roster. Although overall it remains the midway point between modern and classic TW.

>>2124875
chill out lol

>>2111920 (OP)
>putting the triforce in a """historical""" game
*Sigh*...modern devs are cringe...

>>2122430
you can only build 8 iirc

>>2126550
That's a mod limitation

>>2123239
There are some funny memes you can do with them in MP. Especially with + range and the retainer to see the enemy in the deployment phase

>>2123760
In S1 you can charge a spear unit in the rear with heavy cav and take 0 casualties.
In S2 you are guaranteed to take some casualties because the anti-cav bonus is ridiculous.
In S1 fatigue has an effect on combat effectiveness.
In S2 fatigue only affects morale and tired units fight as well as fresh units.

>>2113238
>bow ashigaru... outranged by bow samurai
Anon this is pure stupidity, at what difficulty have you beaten this great game?

>>2126700
Shit for brains much? If you sent them into stationary or straight up melee of course they'll die. That's what trample damage and wedge is for. And s2 fatigue impacts morale, mdef, matk, movement speed and reload as well.

Why is the Date clan so best and more based than anyone else?

>>2126863
Play on Very Hard and you will quickly see it's weaknesses. The AI gets super high bonuses on agent success rates and every wounded general and agent will end up back at your capital far away from the frontlines. Shimazu and Chosokabe suffer from the same problem but at least with them you will more likely always have some boats ready.

>>2126883
Hella non issue

>>2126863
bigger sword = more better

>>2122396
very honorabu

>>2126883
Make a conga line of boats to
Magically transport a general across the entire coast of Japan in one turn

>>2126632
god knows what cuck mods was I playing back then

>>2126863
Tokugawa is the only good clan

Anyone tried master and strategy?

Takeda and ikko ikki are the shit.
Date has fun units but the far away starting location is a big turn off. Same with shimazu

>>2126863
On the subject of Date how does charge work? Done some research and seems like this bonus dissipates over 20 seconds after unit has made contact with the enemy or is it just made up?

fuck

>>2127520
That's what it's supposed to do. No idea how many attacks are actually counted in charge attacks.

>>2127521
If you had a frontline it could be doable.

>>2127521
it's a bridge battle jfc how hard can it be

>>2127567
scratch that, they also have more archers
rip in peace

>>2127567
Three ashigaru and a samurai will eventually get attrited down and he simply does not have enough damage dealers to deal with all those katanas

>>2127521
Archers are a cruch
Bow monks or no archers at all

>>2127594
even as choso?

>>2127520
When you order a charge, your unit builds up momentum until it reaches its max speed. Once it reaches its max speed, its charge bonus activates and ticks down over a dozen or so seconds (exact time varies between games). While it's active, your charge bonus is added to your melee attack but the bonus decays from its maximum over the duration.

But even with all the bonuses from CB, cavalry in S2 remain extremely fragile so you shouldn't overestimate how many soldiers they can kill with a charge.

Tried it a couple times without success, although I did manage to atritt them fairly badly. Retreat isn't an option either, as the main army has enough movement to overtake mine

>>2127620
Please understand, anon has been repeatedly molested but a yumifag so xyr feels the compulsive need to shitpost as a coping mechanism.

>>2126861
>Exact same scenario in 2 games
>Different results
>Nuh uh! You just have shit for brains!
Sorry but facts are facts. S2 is an arcade game.

>>2126861
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RoCjsWO_vk
>And s2 fatigue impacts morale, mdef, matk, movement speed and reload as well.

>>2127690
I have no idea what these words mean my man

>>2127696
If I made a youtube vid telling you specifically to suck my cock and rim my asshole, would you? Hell, I probably wouldn't even need the vid lol. Check the fatigue table in your own game under data.pack with PMF or RPFM.

>>2127851
And the point is the table has broken references and demonstrably has no effect in game.

Sure it doesn't buttercup, youtube told me so. Now I'm off to eat some medium raw chicken and wash it down with four pounds of cinnamon and prime.

>>2127910
>Dying on a hill to defend something you can boot up the game and test for yourself
/vst/ is a slow board there's no need to generate replies to bump the thread.

Eat shit baitnigger.

>>2127851
Armor gets tired? Crazy

>>2111920 (OP)
It depends on the difficulty you play at.
On normal or whatever it doesn't matter as much, or at all, but on higher difficulties that match-up is one you do not want to defend against as the AI is advancing and AI missile bonuses are going to lead to their archers eating your units alive; you will never win a 1 on 1 archer fight against the AI without gross min-max micro, so if you're on hard and up always attack, never defend-especially in castles against a overhelming amount of archers. Always attack, use mobile units, advance and draw out most of their archers and destroy in detail. Once the AI concludes to have inferior ranged units it will advance, then you can yari wall on some hill and win™
In case you do find yourself in a defensive battle against archers, specifically samurai, on a high difficulty find cover and hide. Trees protect not just from arrows but also hide if you do it right. You can hide your entire army in some forest but your general will never be hidden, the AI is going to advance towards him. If you do it right they'll walk right into your hidden units who are then too close for the enemy archers to engage them properly.
If you're on some open map...you're fucked so micro your manuever warfare as much as you can and destroy archers. The missile bonuses the AI gets on higher difficulty is sadly the most extreme influence on Shogun 2's overall tactical gameplay. The fight would be so much more interesting without them.

>>2128499
>you will never win a 1 on 1 archer fight against the AI without gross min-max micro
I just use bow monks

>>2128520
The AI on very hard and up will always have more Bow Samurai than you can field Bow Monks. I too sometimes build them and enjoy a back and forth but this does not solve the issue.

>>2128523
>the issue
your skill issue more like it

>>2111920 (OP)
Bait the cav with your own, right into a yari wall. Then just do a mop-up, that army is pathetic and AI can't use ashigaru units for shit

>>2118075
>using the mouse to move the camera instead of using the keyboard like a sane person

>>2122369
i assume when you are stronger than them in general and have an actual army at their border but to be desu i never tried it myself

>>2127696
ok what the fuck is wrong with them how could they have something this obviously broken without fixing it. i sorta get how it would be hard to notice but still.

>>2129090
>CA
>Fixing anything
This is the same developer that over the years has carried over multiple engine bugs and design issues across their games to the point of accumulating so much tech debt that their engine became impossible to work with and abruptly cuts support for their own games almost every year just to hype up the next one.

>no job
>no paper
>no bitches
>no life
>no value
>no soap
>>better shitpost

>>2129090
i'm not even sure ca has actual developers working there anymore i'm pretty sure it's just artists and marketers milking the ancient (never very good) warscape engine year on year with slightly different warhammer skins

>>2131046
i've got enough soap

>>2131345
There ain't enough soap in the world to wash the black out of you

>>2131358
i know but please don't tell anyone else

Tokugawa is the strongest, the strength of a entire clan should lie with the voice of its leader.

>>2131046
>no bitchu
ngmi

>>2131358
>go to work and face is dirty and black
>wash
>go to work and face is dirty and black
>wash

>>2111964
>AI refuses to charge with its cavalry
>AI defends archers with their own yari
>AI archers destroy your yari
dumb fuck

>>2134494
>things that never happen

>>2111920 (OP)
Does army size in this game actually decrease the speed?

>>2136446
siege units do.
having all cav army makes you faster.
general, certain agents skills and ninjas increase movement range

>>2136595
but there is no difference between army that consist of 1 infantry unit and one that consist of 20 infantry units?

>>2136628
No. Army moves as fast as the slowest unit+generals army movement buffs

>>2136641
thought so
I don't get why every war game refuses to slowdown armies based on army size

>>2136651
If you're going that far then instead of half-assing it you would have to implement a complicated logistics system taking terrain and other things into account. I don't think there is a good option other than going for full war gaming autism which I would personally like to see in a total war game

>>2136651
Because it would be retarded?

>>2136714
How so?
There is a major difference between 1,000 men marching and 50,000 men marching.
The road itself is a bottleneck, but the real issue is with the cart. The bigger the army is more carts you will need, not only to account for more soldiers, but the exponential problem of those pull-horses needing more carts to carry their fodder.
So, say, 1,000 men need 50 carts, 50,000 probably need not 2,500 carts but 5,000 carts.
And the problem with carts is that they get stuck in muddy roads, they break down, pull-horses die, etc. When marching in column, it will cause complications and slow down the entire army. You can keep marching and ignore the stragglers; but eventually, half your army will be so far from vanguard it won't be able to join battle if the vanguard is attacked.

Army of 1,000 can easily march 60 km per day, but 50,000 would be lucky if they can keep pace of 15 km per day.

>>2136762
Instead of doing that bullshit I'm going to have 50 armies of 1000 men and combine them before every fight.

>>2136767
that's why bottlenecking road has to be modelled, so you have to spread those armies out, which means they can be defeated in detail

>>2136762
total war is not the game for you

>>2111920 (OP)
Is there a mod that fixes the godawful autoresolve for naval battles so I never have to do that shit again?

>>2136762
Implementing mechanics that decently emulate army organization and logistics would be too complicated for a small family company like CA.

>>2136817
just don't waste time and resources on naval, EZ

>>2136836
Not to mention the players of the game would whine and complain about bugged movement mechanics

>>2137060
To be fair, TW games have terrible tutorials and CA does a really shit job at relaying information to players in-game.

>>2136836
>would be too complicated
yes
>for a small family company like CA.
this is not why
one good developer could do it but ca have zero

>>2113284
This is the correct answer. Also, you should have your archers in loose formation.
The only issue is that because you are attacking, the opponent will probably be on a hill, maybe in forest (even if the terrain is supposedly plains). Get ready to pull your archers back behind your spears a few times before moving forward again.
Once the enemy archers are properly depleted, they will be forced to charge into your line of spears. Set your spears to yari wall just before the enemy units get to them.
This is why upgrades that give you more ammunition for the bows or fire arrows are good.
Cavalry is generally good for charging to break morale. However there are a lot of spear units around and it can need a bit of attention throughout the fight. Light cavalry is a cost-effective counter to the more expensive cavalry units your opponent has.
Yari asigaru can get you pretty far and are useful throughout the game. Later on in the campaign you might need a few more samurai and cavalry (yari cavalry are good). Bow samurai are also much better than the bow ashigaru.

>>2112321
>The more you learn the easier and less enjoyable they become.
This matches my experience

>>2111920 (OP)
Keep cavalry on the flanks to intercept their cavalry, backed by yari. Since player is attacking he can take the time to spread out his forces to envelop the enemy. Keep yari in tight blocks to let the yumi shoot around them. At this point it is impossible to lose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gnh2xfhxqRg

I really wish they could just add the alt move shit from newer games to this and it would be perfect

>>2137385
Anon... Most people aren't as heavily medicated as yourself to consider any of that garbage you wrote funny let along correct.

RIP Ashigaru sex chat

I am a noob, how do I win this battle?

>>2153007
just defend brah they'll rout

>>2153007
Ask reddit

>>2153014
They did not rout :(

get fucked lmao

that's what you get for abandoning the warrior's way and picking up a gun

Point of hero units? if its just 20 guys that can easily die to guns, arrows and catapults, and expensive to keep to boot.

>>2153007
This is why you don't just have rifleman stacks. In close combat, samurai are going to eat you alive. The best way to deal with them is artillery, but you don't really have that available in castle defenses due to the lack of indirect artillery other than wooden cannons (or mortars if you're playing modded).
Always have at least four melee samurai for various situations. They can defend well, and they can take castles well. Samurai are never obsolete in FOTS, they just become situational.

There is nothing in this world that can make me seethe as hard as fots ai navy

>>2155674
Because it's buggy in battles or because of the non-stop bombardments?

>>2155740
The non stop bombardments by small gunships and the shit autoresolve costing maybe more as repairing
Legendary choshu is torture and feels like you need really good luck. I don't like the idea of taking over kyushu and I want to focus east

>>2155652
Samurai units in fots have morale so shit when you modernize they absolutely become obsolete
>they attack my gunline in melee
Skill issue

>>2112321
This. Total war battles were way more fun when I was a boy and had no idea what was going on. The more you learn to play the game the shittier it gets.

>>2156165
Yeah but that's every game

>>2156145
Not even remotely true, you'd know this if you used them offensively. They chew through any rifle unit in a fortress battle, which is why having a handful for defense is always useful.
Tradition only runs exist.

>>2156183
Yes. Because you don't modernize. Their morale is worse than militia if you do. If you need a rapid response just use some cavalry for fucks sake.

>>2156166
nah

>>2156198
Again, not true. Their morale is fine if they're not being shot at and are in combat.
I'm beginning to doubt you played the game.

>>2156213
Yeah, sure. Nice shitposting.

>>2156214
I accept your concession.
And the morale bonus you get from not modernizing isn't even relevant when you consider morale bonuses you get from veterancy. Again, you probably didn't play the game.

Keep yapping baitbitch

>my monk is walking through my vassal's land on his way join up with my main army
>my vassal's ninja just fucking assassinate him for no reason
>have my ninja assassinate the ninja in revenge
>-50 relationship for hostile agent action
Motherfucker you started it.

>>2156166
False. Some games only get more fun the more you learn them.
TW's combat simply has too many issues to be enjoyable at high level.

Sengoku bune seem to be taking forever to 'latch' up to other ships, spamming click or just sitting there patiently doesn't work, both ships perfectly aligned and all.

+20 accuracy, +2 armor
or
+5 armor, +10 accuracy

>>2163832
I'd take +20 accuracy -2 armour

>>2163832
Armor beats accuracy.
Doesn't help that accuracy is a weird stat, with oddities and non linear effects, especially for matchlocks.
Case in point, Tercos benefit insanely from armor but accuracy is basically worthless.

>>2163947
>basically worthless
Just like your post then? That nigger didn't even say what unit he's asking about.

>>2116681
God it doesn't even matter what clan you play, what your strategy is, or anything: controlling Kyushu is the funnest, most OP way to play this game. One of my favorite campaigns I played as the Hattori, turn 1 began the migration south, took the Otomo city and let the original Hattori city fall so it could become my new capital, converted to Christianity and went all in on getting the Nanban Quarter so I could build those invincible gun ships, finished off the rest of the Island and just became the Christian ninja pirate clan. From that point you don't even need to bother with war, just control all the trade routes and force everybody to trade with you while having no allies or enemies. At that point I'm so rich and unassailable I build some elite samurai stack and have them carry out strategic operations wherever the hell I feel like it, like snagging that Honma island with the gold mine.

>>2163982
Another fun thing I like to do is turtle up in Kyushu and control all the trade ports, and then send my elite stack straight to Kyoto and just hold that one city as my only external province. I have also built churches in every city in Kyushu, trained as many missionaries as possible, and then get each of them fully XP'd with specialization in inciting revolts. Then you send them and ninjas into enemy territory and incite revolts while the ninjas protect them and assassinate enemy generals. In one of my Christian campaigns I was holed up on my island controlling Kyoto, while the entire rest of the map became a wasteland of rebels from my relentless missionary war.

Fucking bailed my last campaign because I couldn't be fucked manually battling endless Oda naval battles

>>2163947
Accuracy is good at really high values, which you can get from certain building combos. Armor, on the other hand, is good pretty much immediately.
>accuracy of 60 or more
Stupidly powerful.
>Armor of 10
Already good enough to give any unit a run for their money.

That being said, there's a lot of odd sweet spots I've noticed, like wooden cannons start out with really shit accuracy but if you let them level up just a little then you have decent enough mortars (mostly for morale damage, mind you).

>>2163947
Armor is basically worthless because it's not a linear increase. You get diminishing returns the more you get. Accuracy will always improve the unit, while armor stops really making a huge difference. Hell, half the reason it's not even more useless is because the AI doesn't really use a lot of the higher tier archers in normal games; since better archers also have armor pen.

>>2165002
What's normal games? Could be difficulty makes a difference, if that's what you mean because I don't agree with your statement. This is literally the average stack in the mid-late game of every single save I've ever played.

>>2165023
I'm talking in terms of duration, I've never heard or played a game where the AI gets the tech to field guns for example and yeah that's kind of what I mean. You're facing off against a bunch of bow samurai, which don't have the armor pen. It's gotta be bow monks or daikyu samurai (who have the second best arrows in the game next to heroes).

>>2165026
I can deliver that too :^) Though, yeah, this is certainly a pretty rare match-up.

>>2165002
This. Also +20 accuracy is also massive for ashigaru.

>>2165028
Yeah, there's also the case of volume of fire. Since armor is a dice roll, against a single unit it comes down more to luck than anything; but enemy accuracy and rate of fire come into play since more hits = more rolls = more chance for a kill. But when you're looking at huge stacks of higher level units with high difficulty stat bonuses, armor is basically wasted. It's also significantly less important in melee because the protection effect is massively reduced.

>>2156166
No, that's something very specific to specific games. Are you saying Starcraft 2 gets shit once you start getting the hang of it?

>>2163964
Looking at the defined rules, it seems like if it's about archer duels, you basically divide that +20 accuracy by 8 to get your answer.
+8 accuracy and +1 armor are basically counters to each other.
+3 armor protects against +24 accuracy.

>>2163947
With how the math works, matchlocks have a base kill chance of 120% without modifiers and arrows have 60% without modifiers. The nuisance (purposeful typo) comes from the modifiers.

>>2165210
An example of a silly modifier is that Date bulletproof samurai have a hidden bulletproof modifier that significantly lowers the base kill chance of matchlock

>>2165211
Naginata samurai have a similar modifier vs arrows, but it's not actually particularly useful because it's only something like 20%.

>>2165210
matchlocks have AP damage, (nonlong)bows don't

>>2165291
and that "AP damage" is achieved by having a 120% base kill rate, which means you need a lot of armor to counteract it

>>2165292
afaik it's base accuracy + accuracy modifier / ballistic calibration to hit for weapon strength / armor (20-100%) + weapon strength AP

you saying that's not the case?

>>2165002
Also noteworthy that both stats are effectively multiplied by unit size. A volley of 160 arrows benefit more from an accuracy increase than a volley of 120. This is part of why the stats of samurai units can be deceptive, since they look high but are accompanied with lower model counts so they're both making fewer attacks backing their MA and have less overall hp behind their armour and MD. This is also why small stat increases, like from veterancy or buildings, benefit Ashigaru more than samurai.

>>2165307
I'm saying that "AP damage" means nothing. The Matchlock simply does a lot of damage, and with how armor works, it overpowers that calculation.

>>2165315
alright, want to elaborate why you think that? genuinely curious

>>2165319
because that's how it's defined in the projectile damage database as 2, which gets multiplied by 60% in the calculations

>>2165210
>>2165334
I'll add that I made an error.
The base damage of bow projectiles is 0.3-0.5 depending on projectile. That means the base kill chance is not 60% with the same logic that makes matchlock 120%.
I hear there's also fuckery with that 60% base kill rate for select units, but I'm not verifying.

>>2165347
>an error
>singular
wew

ballistic calibration is a stat only since twwh3 and I only put it there to see if you'll call me out
separate ap damage is a thing since r2
in s2 weapons with ap tag completely ignore armor unless the unit has bullet resistant tag which negates it and there's maybe 3 of those in game

you do get an a+ for the effort, prime bullshitting

This is probably a dumb question because it's historical TW Japan, but are there any mods that change the shape of the country?
The go across then go up/down formula got old real fast

>>2165370
These seem like FotS weapons. Can you give me the same table for Shogun 2 weapons since you're in the mood for educating?

When it comes to you >le epic trap, Shogun 2 has just long range and short range modifier. I think you have an unhealthy ego about this. What was the point of your >le epic trap if I had no intention of correcting every piece of information?

lmao

>>2165370
>>2165403
since you're not biting, I'm giving additional information for context, I filtered all the entries with damage of 2
what's up with these entries calling themselves matchlocks and carbines?

>>2165397
Sadly TW maps are pretty much unmoddable, and deliberately so.

>>2165308
Right, I remember reading that despite what the game visually displays; Shogun 2 isn't a bunch of 1v1 melee battles, a unit that's outnumbered (by ashigaru for example) can potentially have multiple enemy models targeting a single friendly model. Which makes sense, since otherwise Katana Sam would chew up and spit out ashigaru and dumpster Yari Sam even harder than they already do.

Basically any base stat increase on something like the Ronin units for the ikko is simply offsetting their smaller model counts instead of actually making them a noticeably better unit.

best FoTS mods?

>>2165397
A few that I know of. Morning Sun adds Korea, related adds, well, related and so on. Google is your friend lazy nigger-sama.

>>2127521
>>2127686
you suck!

>>2165521
I'll never understand why the shogun_carbine exists.
Did they plan for Mounted Gunners to be different from matchlocks? Or were they different at one time and brought in line with one another in a patch?

>>2166392
>Did they plan for Mounted Gunners to be different from matchlocks
That feels like it was the case, mounted archers have notably weaker arrows than foot archers, so I can imagine at one point (either in an earlier patch or development) they did the same thing with mounted gunners.

>Broker peace with enemy 2
>Accepts
>Broker peace with another enemy 3
>Accepts
>Enemy two attacks me 2 turns later
>Enemy 1 calls enemy 3 back in to the same war
I am completely disregarding any and all diplomacy in this game hence forth.

>>2166791
>putinposting

>>2166823
I am also going to invade and burn every shimazu village down to the ground as soon as I can leave this fucking island
EVERY single fucking game they're a pain in my ass

>>2166832
Tried playing in a different area?

>>2166844
Why would I play anywhere but my house?
Don't be ridiculous.

>>2166849
Keep getting filtered then lol

>>2166868
>A faction being annoying means you're filtered
Just a bit retarded there buddy?

>>2166885
Cope and seethe

>>2166791
Diplomacy has always been absolute dogshit in Total War. It's a pure dumpster fire and Shogun is one of the better ones in this regard.

>>2166791
You have no right to complain until you've been backstabbed by Milan in Med 2.

>>2166921
This isn't a warhammer thread, I'm fairly sure everyone here has dealt with Milan.

>>2166392
DLC unit weapon

>>2167295
Well yeah, it's just that it has no reason to exist because the DLC weapon has the exact same stats as the base matchlock.
Had they given mounted gunners the shogun_matchlock it wouldn't have made any difference.

>>2166927
They don't survive long enough to backstab me.

>Be peasant with gun
>Ultra eager to shoot rich nobility
Praiseworthy display

I'm convinced Yari Samurai (even outside of mods) are better than most people give them credit for since Light Cavalry are trash for killing anything but archers and General's Hatamoto (which they can exchange favorably with about half the time even if engaged two to one)

>>2166791
TW diplomacy is nonsense.
Every AI on the map that isn't at war rolls a dice every turn to declare war, with the odds of declaring war increasing every turn that they aren't at war.
If they roll to dec, they roll again to decide who, weighted towards the player more the higher the campaign difficulty setting. This completely ignores any diplomatic penalties (the AI doesn't get them) or treaties you have with the AI.

In addition, every turn that the player is not at war, a dice is rolled to decide if a random AI faction (weighted based on who hates you the most) will declare war on you.

When an AI is at war with you, it will actively invite other AI to the war, including your allies. Whether they accept is essentially random, which means that no matter what over time the AI will slowly build a snowballing coalition against you and any effort to remedy this diplomatically will just be overturned instantly as the AI rolls to declare war on you or join the war against you over and over again.

>>2171195
Tier lists have ruined the reputations of perfectly fine units. Comp morons look at Yari Samurai and see a unit that has weaker stats than Katana Samurai and are slower than Cavalry and don't have the low cost of Yari Ashigaru, and assume it's trash. They completely ignore it's actual use case as a reserve or as a sneaky commando unit. Their rapid advance ability is exclusive to them for a reason, and it isn't to be half-assed charge units.

>>2171195
>>2171272
Yari Samurai are an excellent support/reserve unit. They are definitely better at this role than Yari Ashigaru. I'm going to defend the tier lists because it's correct to say they aren't the best frontliner. Even matchlocks are great with some pike and shot tactics, but your ability to do proper pike and shot tactics is limited by the decision to limit their range way too much.

>>2171291
My problem with many TW tier lists is they view early units and support units as "bad" because they're not late game frontline units. Using something incorrectly or at the wrong time doesn't mean the unit is shit, especially not compared to other late game units not worth the cost or the research investment.

>>2171294
Yeah, tier lists are a meme in general. I guess the fact that you get a full army of units only embeds their problem. The format doesn't really do well with nuance when it comes to army composition.

>>2171294
>>2171296
>I looked at a car part tier list and made my car only out of differential drive shafts

>>2171294
>they view early units and support units as "bad" because they're not late game frontline units
Well blame most TW games favouring tiers and stat inflation over utility. Ultimately, it's the only thing that matters in these games and Shogun 2 while not perfectly balanced (fucking matchlock's range is too short) is one of this franchise's rare exceptions where the roster is actually quite tightly designed with few overlapping roles or obsolete units, but even then you don't need all that utility to beat the AI anyway, you just stack whatever's cost effective and easy to use.

>>2171272
>>2171291
Another big thing is you can get Yari Samurai with no research, and they don't really suffer from lack of research the same way their ally, the Bow Samurai suffers (without fire arrows or Bow Cavalry, Samurai Archers aren't really that much more important than their Ashigaru associates).
In early disputes, which, outside of being Uesegi or otherwise next to the Takeda, are going to be between infantry or very shitty cavalry at most, Yari Samurai are great as flanker forces since Yari Wall is trash if you are flanked.

>>2171272
No, Yari Samurai are just bad.
They aren't bad in the sense that "this unit is unusable and fails at everything" and this nuance apparently bakes people's brains.

Yari Samurai have a 90% role overlap with Yari Ashigaru and Yari Ashigaru are strictly more cost effective by an order of magnitude. Really the only thing Yari Samurai have over Yari Ashigaru is rapid advance, but Rapid Advance isn't all that useful. If you want a 'commando unit' you just use cavalry, which is much faster and can do more from a flanking position. If you want reserves you bring Ashigaru, because you'll have more reserves for your money even if those reserves rush into position slightly slower.

The problem is that Yari Samurai are literally just the existing Yari unit with slightly more stats, but at a cost that doesn't justify it.

Katana Samurai at least have a clear, valuable niche which isn't encroached on by other unit types.
>>2171357
Bow samurai matter because they're the only unit that will beat bow ashigaru in a shootout. You need a certain quantity of frontline units just to cover space and protect your flanks from being overrun, so the number of archers you can actually afford to bring in an army comp is limited. Bow Samurai are less cost-effective than Bow Ashigaru, but more slot-efficient and allow you to secure fire superiority in an otherwise even fight. It's the kind of choice you can make when you're on your 3rd or 4th army of the campaign and it would probably make sense. Whereas Yari Samurai just never really do.

>>2171406
Yari Samurai are more of a multiplayer unit where their niche actually has uses. There's virtually no reason to ever bring them or most utility units against the AI.

>>2171406
>Yari Samurai have a 90% role overlap with Yari Ashigaru
Don't agree. YA are a holding unit, YS are flank and fast reaction footcavalry. You boost their melee attack and charge, pop their ability and they're better than AI KS and you can recruit them at super high level with and replenish them with basic spear building. They're not amazing but they're cheap and flexible enough to do anything for you.

>Dismount Katana samurai
>Horses run off
hate when that happens.

>>2171632
Yari Samurai basically function as your cav unless you're willing to gamble on the low unit count of Light Cav or you fast into Warhorses.

>>2171406
>Yari Samurai have a 90% role overlap with Yari Ashigaru
See this is the tier list retardation I'm talking about.

>>2172330
Imagine being so retarded that you think an ability that gives a unit extra speed so they can outflank and outmaneuver other units, particularly ones already engaged, just means "hurr they charge better".

>>2172330
Yeah, ghetto cav that can also climb a wall like nothing else in the game.

>>2172359
They only have that role overlap if you mod them to have Yari Wall, and at that point they're suddenly better Yari Ashigaru except for fewer models.

>>2171632
Yari Samurai have a purely defensive statline that makes them terrible at flanking and rearcharging and their speed boost is so underwhelming and so short-lived that they can't even run down a unit of archers with it.

I get that the idea of a brick wall that moves fast really triggers your imagination but in practice they are a worse Ashiharu that you've gaslight yourself into using as bad cavalry because somewhere along the line the phrase "foot cavalry" entered your vocabulary and common sense couldn't dislodge it.

There's a very important difference between " I can find success using this thing against the brain-dead AI and" it's actually good." Anything is viable and you're welcome to play in whatever weird offmeta way you like, but it's not good. It's a square peg being jammed into a round hole.

>>2172725
If you're playing players though you aren't on a tech tree, you can just put the most expensive unit in your army.
A unit whose primary use is early when not everyone will have access to war horse cavalry is not bad because it does its best work early.

>>2172725
OK? Hey anon I didn't shit in your ricebowl so why the pissy attitude? I like em cause they come early and they're flexible on a budget. And they will catch up with archers or enemy general better than most other units. If you don't want to use them or prefer to turtle or whatever and have your naginatas or whatever out in force instead that's your choice but I'm not being a passive aggressive dick about it. As for multiplayer I imagine it's different but I really don't care/play MP.

>>2172760
It's just insecurity, leave that guy alone. I think this is a case where everyone agrees if you remove ego out of the question. Yari Samurai aren't the best unit, and they are worse than Yari Ashigaru in many aspects. There's still some situations where you'd rather have Yari Samurai over Yari Ashigaru.

>>2166791
>At war with the Takeda
>My ally decided to join in
>Knock them down to one city and vassalize them
>This doesn't automatically peacefully them out with my ally
>In fact, my ally now hates me for having the Takeda as a vassal
Word can't describe how much I hate TW diplomacy.

>>2175937
My favorite example:
>FotS, Satsuma
>Emperor-supporting side of war going badly
>only myself, Chosu and Tosa left, all of us allied
>Tosa renounce the Emperor and join Shogunate
>declare war on me
>Chosu takes their side

>>2175937
>>2176278
Sounds like some very historically accurate fuckery to me

Field command sengoku mod is so good
Impossible to go back to vanilla

>>2172725
>Yari Samurai have a purely defensive statline that makes them terrible at flanking and rearcharging and their speed boost is so underwhelming and so short-lived that they can't even run down a unit of archers with it.

Yari Samurai are objectively better at flanking than Katana Samurai and Yari Ashigaru, being faster and more resilient to cavalry while having an excellent charge bonus. That's all they need to be.

>>2171257
>In addition, every turn that the player is not at war, a dice is rolled to decide if a random AI faction (weighted based on who hates you the most) will declare war on you.

Won several campaigns on legendary, and have noticed how it has always been better to have constantly a nation at war, than to be fully at peace, which honors the name of the game, "Total War"

I wish I'd made replays of all of my battles in my first Shogun 2 campaign because I was pretty proud of some of the things I pulled off as a beginner.

Little close for comfort

>>2176613
>being faster
They're only marginally faster for a very brief period of time because their active ability is actually kind of shit.
>more resilient to cavalry
They're not actually. While they're attempting to flank they are by necessity isolated from local support. They are just as vulnerable to being rearcharged as any other unit. Their anti-large bonus doesn't protect them from being charge-cycled with an exposed flank.

Their stats don't support an offensive role as they lack MA and CB, the most important stats when attacking or flanking. There's really no situation where you would rather have a unit of yari Samurai than cavalry or katana samurai to perform a flanking maneuver.

Next you're going to say "BUT THE VERSATILITY BRO" but the truth is that Yari Samurai aren't versatile, they just get pressed into various different roles because they excel at nothing and never feel like the optimal choice for a specific purpose in your army composition.

If you like a unit... for some odd roleplay reason or whatever, you're welcome to use whatever you like. Nobody's forcing you to play the game well. But it's just not a good unit. Rather its existence is a symptom of Shogun 2's whole issue with roster design.

Show us on the doll where the mean yari samurai touched you edge-kun

Yari samurai need to have all of the abilities of ashigaru to really have a good niche, otherwise they're just filler until you get katanas or naginatas.

>Need to build a dojo first
>Needs 2 turns to train vs 1 for yari ashi
Completely junk for campaign.

>>2180750
It only requires 1 turn with a Yari Master Dojo or better.

>>2180750
Please understand, anon gets his rocks off on being contrarian

>>2180973
So the initial investment is even higher and by the time it's built you have to waste turns moving your yari samurai to the frontline while paying for their upkeep.

>>2181155
And you'll have almost won the game with yari ashi by the time you unlock the tech to even build master dojo wow.

Yari Samurai fight to the last man, more often.

Yari Samurai can cook minute rice in 30 seconds.

Yari samurai stole my gf

Yari samurai is my gf

>>2181173
>doesn't tech up or grow his provinces at all, just snowballs with yari ashigaru
>wtf why is realm divide so op
>wtf why have I run out of money
>wtf why are my armies so trash
Etc etc

Just build fucking samurai. They're strong. Get the matchlock tech, get matchlock samurai.
Build yari cav.

Ashigaru spammers genuinely should rope for exploiting ai the entire game

>>2182542
This message has been brought to you by Big Samurai sports and hunting equipment. Visit today and get a 30% off on used portuguese chamberpots larping as helmets.

>>2182552
Unused?

>>2182817
Uhm... The patina helps deflect bullets and the smell wards off evil spirits. Listen, buy more than two and I'll throw in a sack of rotten turnips and either a korean comfort slave or a dapper black man you can name samurai for shits and giggles.

>>2182542
Ashigaru spammers have won the game on legendary in the time it took for you to post that strawman.

>>2183031
You mean players less shit and much less whiny than you? I can believe that.

Imagine rising through the ranks for your bravery and now you get to be on a horse so you can get get away when things go south but suddenly you get impaled by some guy whose job is to wash his lord's ass after taking a shit
You were swinging your katana so hard but this one guy just came so quickly with his useless ability and you were just about to cycle charcge him wtf

>>2183089
For the last time Mitsuhide, Hideyoshi earned his assignment. Now behave or I'll sic Yasuke on you again.

Any mods that do proper pike and shotte?
I have pike and shotte cravings.

>>2183097
Field command sengoku
It does it as good as tw can

>>2183097
If you don't mind losing the pike part napoleon with darth's is quite alright.

>>2183556
Thanks, anon, but I do mind. Played darthmod and his games about acw too. FotS is also nice.
Problem is - no pike.
There aren't a lot of good Pike and Shotte games.

>>2183097
There is that 1700s mod which now has a wiped campaign too.

>>2183596
I get you. I'd love me some Cromwell action but it's not a popular period. Best I got is Imperialism 2, related, shogun obviously, and mountainblade. Med2 could work but I never found a mod that caters to that.

>>2184258
>Med2 could work but I never found a mod that caters to that.
Only one that caters to it is "1648 - Thirty Years of War", pic related.

>>2184267
Holy shit, that's still going? I remember trying that or something similar a good decade ago. Good catch anon.

>>2184422
Well it still exists but I don't think it is any longer in active development. 2.0 came out in 2013, holy fuck, with the last patches being in 2015.
Pretty sure it's considered a completed mod, for better or worse.

>>2134494
>shogun 2 AI refusing a cavalry charge
>shogun 2 AI defending its archers
picrel but unironically

>>2184435
>twcenter
>>>holy fuck
Now imagine seeing your post from 2009 in there.

>make peace with other faction after they've been throwing shitty levy infantry stacks at me and losing settlements for the past 50 turns
>the next turn they instantly declare war again
And it won't have any effect because diplomatic relations aren't actually realt

>>2184480
>Now imagine seeing your post from 2009 in there.
No need to make me feel even older
But I really have to give the mod a serious try at last.

>>2184243
Is it good?

>>2184267
I vaguely remember playing this 15-20 years ago.

>>2184802
>Is it good?
No clue, I didn't know they already had se semi-playable campaign. I only checked today because I wasn't sure if it was a 17th century or 1700s mod.

You think you can just ambush me with three armies and win? FUCK you

I didn't like that artillery anyway, just slowed me down

>>2184700
It will still reduce their daimyo's honor which has a bunch of penalities until you kill thier current daimyo. There is this cheesy strategy post realm divide there you can keep offering a big periodic payment for peace every turn and the AI will keep redeclaring war on you with the an extra honor penalty before you have to pay anything.

>>2184883
>Remaining 988
>Remaining 988
Very nice

>>2184812
>>2184243
Seems interesting but how annoying it is that all everything nowadays requires one to join a faggy discord server.
There's a steam workshop for a reason.
Bunch of elitist fags.

>>2185528
There is a discord? I only know about it from the workshop.
Tested it now a bit but not sure how I feel about it. Unit range isn't shown in battle, which might be some bug, but kill rate with muskets is insanely low which is agonizing

>>2185566
Just checked in a custom battle line infantry vs line infantry.
Took over 3 minutes at max speed of shooting followed by the AI going for a melee, after only 50% casualties on both units.

>>2185582
Yeah it seems like the kind of mod made by autists without any consideration given to the actual gameplay.

>>2185735
Worse, it's a mod by fake autists.
Vanilla shogun 2's matchlock performance is more realistic than the mod and those aren't all that realistic either.

Now that you mention it, using a samurai sword in a field battle is really stupid.

>>2185822
Spears are good when there are alot of them and men with swords were important to the tercio
I think japanese fought in the same way

>>2185856
They really didn't. Kanata or gatana was always a sidearm at best. Naginatas don't have any place on a battlefield either but hey, they look cool and the roster is small as is.

>>2185874
>Naginatas
Naginata looks like the worst kind of polearm ever but if you have 100 monks posing with them I think it's enough for a temple to get the local lord to fuck off

>>2185735
you mean like 99% of mods for these games?

>>2185881
No I mean think about it. It's not a formation fighting weapon. Worse against armor too.

>>2185822
It's literally just a medieval cavalry sabre. Samurai mostly fought on horseback and the sword was a sidearm. The size, shape and design are all purpose-built for mounted combat, and in fact as a history nerd you can play a little guessing game looking at various european cavalry swords and japanese swords and trying to guess which is which.

Over time the role of samurai shifted from being the mounted retinue of militarized nobility to being high society with ceremonial trappings and the sword evolved from being a practical battlefield implement with a narrow purpose to being a status symbol. While europe developed purpose-built dueling swords for legally-sanction duels after the knightly class hung up their armour for good, the japanese just gradually adapted the katana into one because it no longer served a battlefield purpose.

These things were blended together by the militarist regime of Pearl harbour fame who deliberately turned the samurai into a propaganda symbol, and then endlessly parroted by loser sexpat 'historians' that just cherrypick excerpts from propaganda writings out of context and misrepresent them as historical research.

>>2185884
Weren't they most popular when most fighting was done by relatively small bands of mounted samurai? Pretty sure they had long fallen out of style by the 16th century.

>>2185893
Yeah, what I'm thinking too. Remember the scariest monks were those with guns entrenched on a mountain not those practicing penis strengthening and twirling a stick.

>>2185884
I think the tercio is a good example for why the sword was used and of course cavalry and it being a status symbol

>>2185897
Yeah they seem bad in massed infantry based combat because they weren't designed for that purpose. I imagine they worked quite well when everyone was riding a horse.

>>2185903
Sure but Japs had really good armor against cutting and it's still shorter range than a lance or a bow. And again worse in formation.

>>2185909
But you can use it in the formation I don't know how long japanese spears were but I do guess enough so that it's the embarrsing kind when the peasants would rather wave their spears around to pretend they are fighting

>>2185914
Yari were longer, and they were designed for thrusting and overhead strikes, both easily doable in formation. Naginata were primarily slashing polearms, they require more space to be used effectively.

>>2185931
I was thinking katanas in a spear formation

>>2185893
Aside from the normal cavalry spear, which was pretty much the same as spears anywhere else, cavalry in feudal japan developed their own family of polearms. Naginata were never a cavalry weapon, nor were they ever a battlefield weapon.

The naginata was specifically a weapon made to be wielded by women and elderly in home defense. They have extended reach to provide extra leverage and keep the user safe from a battle of strength they're not suited for, but not long enough to be a proper spear or polearm because that would be too heavy. While there's evidence they existed quite a ways back, most of the pop culture image of them was invented much later in history and retroactively attributed to scenes of battle and points in history where they were likely never actually used.

They were likely originally just farming implements adapted to combat similar to european warscythes and countless other weapons of the peasant class, who weren't otherwise permitted to own their own weapons.

What to do when the AI randomly declares war and suicide charges you ignoring all the AI stacks attacking it.

>>2185948
Laugh.

>>2185948
I would rather have this than them deciding to attack with their navy
It is the most infuriating shit ever when you get to watch their turn and you can see that 1 boat carrying a stack of samurai and I can tell they will betray me

>>2163947
>>2164999
>>2165002
It was for matchlock units getting into shoot outs with bow units. I put the wrong numbers anyway, I was wondering if it was better to recruit matchlocks in an master armour province (+5 armor) with a hunter's lodge (+5 accuracy) or a bow master province (+20 accuracy) with an armourer (+5 armor). I don't know how got the numbers wrong originally but I think +20 accuracy and +5 armor is better. I like the armourer over the hunters lodge because you can increase accuracy with veterancy but not armor.

>>2186347
I put the numbers wrong again, armourer is supposed to be +2 armor.

>>2186347
Matchlocks get -25% effect from accuracy or it was some other form of negative modifier to accuracy. Long story short they benefit a lot less from it than bow units.
Yes the fact that it is the only form of missile defense and one of the few things that can't be upvetted makes it way more valuable.
As said earlier I did quite a bit of testing against melee and archers with upgraded matchlock units and going full armor was consistently the better choice. As in Armoury for +2 and Master Armorer for +3 for a +5 in total.
To be fair I spend most of my time playing Otomo and over short or long end up fielding Tercos

>>2186731
iirc matchlocks in s2 campaign instead of a penalty just have a hard accuracy cap of again, iirc, 82%. The fire by rank helps with that since innate accuracy bonus from the formation.

>otomo
Yeah, I can see how you'd not find it especially valuable since their special units either spawn or reach that cap with a few levels. Similar to bows and chosokabe. But if you want to use nonotomo nonoda matchlock ashigaru it can have value. Or ikkoikki ones but good luck boosting their reload stat.

>Tercos
Based. But I love me my tercios with boosted melee attack instead. Shoot them to pieces and then cut down any survivors like a lawnmower.

>>2186753
>hard accuracy cap
That I do not know. I was referring to pic related, which is the stat for the matchlock projectile.
With how esoteric Shogun 2's ranged combat calculation is I won't make any claim as to how that exactly affects things, quite possible it is in fact a hard cap.

3 volleys against katana sam:
>no vet otomo = 88
>no vet mori = 96
>no vet otomo = 108
>max vet mori = 111
>max vet otomo = 112
3 volleys against bow ashi:
>no vet mori = 36
>no vet mori = 42
>no vet otomo = 45
>no vet otomo = 52
>max vet otomo = 56
>max vet mori = 65
3 volleys against bow ashi but rushing in to close range before shooting:
>no vet mori = 58
>no vet mori = 74
This one is actually slightly iffy because they are obviously never shooting from the exact same distance.
I didn't do many test to account for RNG, mainly because using custom battle for testing is ass.

Ultimately I do think it still does show my point.
While accuracy probably doesn't have no effect it is way smaller than one would think. Arguably not enough to rein in random chance.
Especially considering that closing the distance is way more impactful than accuracy alone.
Even in a ranged duel armor certainly sounds more valuable simply to avoid losing guns specifically with the range difference between matchlocks and bows.

>tercios with boosted melee attack
Personally I wasn't really convinced of it when I tested them, armor seemed to scale better with experience while also having more utility against ranged threats.

>>2187167
>85% cap
I was close enough then. And way I figure tercios are well armored enough to not benefit that much with rounding involved, cavalry tramples archers just fine but if he charges your line with a gorillion katanas it's nice kicking his teeth in. Useful on sieges too. I do something similar with chosokabe bow samurai or ikkoikki/oda ashigaru and it's very enjoyable.

>I didn't do many test to account for RNG
Real small sample innit?

>>2187167
Oh yeah, and take a closer look at what you posted. Those are stats on actual projectiles, not the unit. There's a separate stat on unit table, separate on veterancy effect and yet another with formation. Further modified by fatigue.

>pain in the ass
Yeah. If you want to get anything resembling consistent and reliable comparison you'd need to test all of those with different veterancy, on different fatigue levels, different elevation, under formation, under stand and fight... And there's a bit of RNG to consider too. On both them shooting and those shooting at them.

Let's just say it's not worth the tism and we agree accuracy upgrades on samurai/monk/tercio matchlocks isn't as valuable as some other options lol.