Never give up Edition!

Christian Esotericism is the inner and/or mystical aspect of the Christian Religion, it includes:
>Christian Gnosis (Clement of Alexandria)
>Desert Fathers Spirituality (Evagrius Ponticus)
>Catholic Contemplative Tradition (Bonaventure)
>Hesychasm (Gregory Palamas)
>Chivalry (Wolfram von Eschenbach)
>Christian Alchemy (George Ripley)
>Rhineland Mysticism (Meister Eckhart)
>Christian Cabala (Johannes Reuchlin)
>Paracelsianism (Paracelsus)
>Rosicrucianism (Robert Fludd)
>Christian theosophy (Jakob Böhme)
>Martinism (Louise Claude de Saint-Martin)
>Swedenborgianism (Swedenborg)
>Magical Idealism (Novalis)
>Romanticism (Baader)
>Anthroposophy (Rudolf Steiner)
>Sophiology (Sergei Bulgakov)
>Christian Hermeticism (Valentin Tomberg)
>Fourth Way (Boris Mouravieff)
>Christian Traditionalism (Jean Borella)
>Divine Love (James Padgett)
And much more, so let's continue to talk about it!

>Resources (WIP)
https://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm
https://jacobboehmeonline.com/
https://archive.org/details/awakening-to-divine-wisdom-christian-initiation-into-three-worl-nodrm_202202/mode/1up
https://janelead.org/resources.html
https://archive.org/details/bookofcontemplat00unde/
https://archive.org/details/rudolf-steiner-book-collection/
https://swedenborg.com/bookstore/free-ebooks-downloads/
https://www.gornahoor.net/?page_id=47
https://archive.org/details/meditations-on-the-tarot/
https://files.catbox.moe/8n4061.djvu (Meditations on the Tarot)
https://eliasartista.substack.com/
https://passtheword.org
https://catenabible.com/mt/1

>>40768929 (OP)
Previous thread >>40735785

>>40768929 (OP)
New post on Gnosticism https://eliasartista.substack.com/p/christianity-and-gnosticism

>>40768929 (OP)
Why Christianitys early competitor for the op?

>>40769482
It's pretty and it's related to>>40769428

Take the Blakepill

> "If there is no morality without God, why are things moral (or not) with God?"

This was posted on another board, likely an attempted troll, but still a very deep question if one genuinely considers it. I'm curious what anons here think, or maybe someone else has had a good answer. I personally think to answer this question completely and thoroughly is to explain a fundamental axiom of the faith.

>>40768930
Orthodox here, i've been reading Philokalia in the past 2 weeks and it's insane how good it is, kinda hard at time but the advice there is insane

>>40762841

Anon, I'll pray for you. But I need you to do something for yourself.
> Not sure if it's me
This is a very hard and very personal question that everyone needs to ask themselves occasionally. Ironically, this type of deep introspection cannot be performed alone. Thankfully, even when we are alone, in both a physical and abstract sense, we are never alone in a spiritual sense. We have been given the scriptures, tradition, and the Holy Spirit. Although, it's very good to also have someone who knows you well to help you with this process. You are measuring who you are against who you could be; then the the question is ,"who could you be?". Who you could be varies very much so between what you set your standard as. The scriptures tell us first and foremost, you should be pleasing to God, the rest of the world is vanity. However, we are given wisdom in how we can be both pleasing to our fellow brothers and sisters, and to God. "Be good to everybody, a strength to the weak, a joy to the joyful, be the laughter in the grief, give your love freely." The truth is we all fall short of who we could be, but when we look at inward we always find how we can be better.

It's useful to have someone in whom you trust, in whom you respect, in whom you see righteousness, who knows you enough to be comfortable to tell you the things you might now want to hear. Sometimes we can be huge dicks, or have off putting mannerisms, say things that rub people the wrong way. These are always subjective, but we need to occasionally hear such criticism.

>>40770545
When we speak about morality we say, "x is right, y is wrong, right is good, wrong is bad", we also claim that "a is good, b is better", so we both claim that there exists goodness and that goodness different things don't just participate in it, but also participate in it on different levels, creating a hierarchy of things participating in goodness, that pressures a perfect goodness all other goodness in the world is a derivative off, and we call that goodness God
So we say that there is good because God is good, you can choose goodness or not, its up to you
Without God there is no standard, good and evil then are dependant on opinion, my good is your bad and vice versa, there have been attempts at constructing some sort of morality without God, but those systems always lead to the objective existence of good and evil outside of human opinion, making goodness a real existence independent of us, and when Plato did that with his theories of forms, he called goodness the highest form, identified it with the Pythagorean One, and called it God, so any objective system of morality leads to God
>>40770563
Care to share your thoughts?

>>40770648
>>40762841

> No one offering to help, being there for me,, going out of their way to do something extra or make something easy for me, just nothing. I just feel a bit lost, I am not sure if it's me.

After you have examined the plank in your own eye, it's time to examine your "friends and family". Truly, in trying times you will know who your friends and family are. If after looking at yourself, and dispassionately examining your relationships, you may need to have a conversation with these people, and maybe even let go from your life.

>>40769482
What do you mean 'why'? Its only the superior version...

>>40770694

* Let these people go from your life

>>40770744
Damn probably a millisecond away from getting the dubs, hum

My journey through Christianity has been marked by constant warfare with small periods of peace. Every fall is like returning to stake 0 again and is even harder to get back. But there are some things I have learned about myself and God in this journey. At first I thought that I was the agent of my own conversion, or that I was already ''changed'' at some point; this made the times when I fell a nightmare, and I tried to rationally think of ways to not fall again, but that all led to frustrations. The more you think you can or you can't win against satanic power, the stronger it gets. The key is to trust in God, but as ''easy'' as that advice seems to be, it isn't (at least for me).

Consequently, those times made me reflect about how it must be hard for other people drowned in vices or emotions to control it, and I felt bad for them and even for the people that wronged me because I too had done things because I let my emotions and vices take control in the past more easily. With this I kind of learned to forgive myself more often. But of course, when you think you've made some progress, instantly, you will be tested in this matter, and here is where I got stuck right now. God's testing is about seeing if you will let what is pulling you down go, and it took me time to understand this is what he truly wants me to do, all of us to do... The problem is the next step is to let go of the things that "''define''" me, that sustain my ego, and when I face it, I can't do the jump that Kierkegaard talked about. I will either go to hell or purgatory if I keep this up because even if I want to do it, I can't bring myself right now to do it, and who knows how much time I have? Sorry to blog here this much.

>>40770882
>Purgatory
Most people will end up in Purgatory, as you see yourself the struggle is too great to beat in this life, that's why believers who are flawed will spend a period in Purgatory until they're ready for Heaven, only Saints die and go to Heaven right then and there
Just do what you can, what matters is the intent not the result, don't give up, try to be better

>>40770245
Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO_pLoQbyXE

is roman catholic traditionalism esoteric chirstianity?
Defense of the truth in organized church hierarchy, but not right now. Sedevacantism and Lefebvreism.

Defense of church dogmas and orthodoxy.

what do you guys think of holy mass it self?

>>40768929 (OP)
Yes

>>40772089
>is roman catholic traditionalism esoteric chirstianity?
No, it is exoteric. It is the true ecclesiastical hierarchy as opposed to the modernist counterfeit.
>what do you guys think of holy mass it self?
It is Calvary made present on the altar by the power of almighty God. Christ's sixth word upon the Cross was "tetelestai" and St. Dionysius calls the Holy Eucharist the initiation of initiations, which actually does gesture at something esoteric. But to put it simply: whether the sacraments constitute an "initiation" is hidden, inasmuch as the graces received in holy communion are always wisely proportioned to the disposition of the communicant.

>>40770545
existence is a hierarchy, God sets things because we are his creation. if there is no God, then existence is a democracy, and this leads to pluralistic subjective reductionism applied to conscience of morality, existence then is taken for granted, and that is a fallen state of being, people being segregated by their own feigned morality while ignoring that of others, after all, it is a tower babel style mess.

Just learned that John Milton believed theogony by hesiod was inspired by Satan, and apparently Justin martyr and athenagoras felt similarly

>>40773505
Come to think of it, Zeus does seem kind of evil like with all the rape

>>40768929 (OP)
Videos on Gnosis, its various types (SPG, UPG & VPG) and Gnosticism:

https://youtu.be/0F7knBtLsNs
https://youtu.be/260L-DEZVQ0
https://youtu.be/diHf_Tup6tE

>>40773525
He was also responsible for *the* flood

Question. Does an enlightened person feel strong grief, or is he aloof so much that he doesn't care?

>>40774233
>does his skin not burn?

>>40773505
Hesiod and Homer were seen as somewhat controversial, since they're the basis of the later Greek Pagan faith, but they were also seen, in particular Hesiod, as affirming a form of Monotheism

Jew here. During hypnagogia this morning the phosphenes behind my eyes morphed into a photorealistic clear lake with what I perceived as the Spirit of God upon it and I felt a sense of peace and tranquility. The lake then started coming closer to me and opened up at light speed sucking me in like a wormhole. I saw what I can only describe as the Ma'Ase Bereshith (Work of Creation). I had a beaming smile this whole time and a feeling of incredible bliss. There were holy beings all around the blue vortex of cloud that I was traveling through at near light speed. At the end I saw a marvelous instrument, it looked like a long cylindrical flanged mace head imploding/turning in on itself slowly. I perceived this as the crusher of the Chariot, with which God will destroy the wicked. I had a glimpse of this instrument for a few moments, and then I was in the tunnel again. I was moaning quietly at this point and forced myself to open my eyes, when I marveled at what I had just experienced, which was all of about 25 seconds. I felt contentment, Then while pondering the experience I started to feel a slight bit of dread, which subsided. Crazy stuff. Google says not enough DMT is released during hypnagogia to cause hallucinations. HallaluYah blessed be the Name of God.

>>40774854
Mate you sure that wasn't just a dream because I get sleep paralysis and even after the hallucinations stop and i can move again i keep seeing stuff with my eyes closed

>>40774869
Could be. but the only times Ive had sleep paralysis was as a kid, I saw insects flying around me or dinosaurs and it was terrifying. This experience wasn't scary, it was ecstatic and i wasn't "paralyzed" per say.

Dunno if sexanon still frequents this general (I usually don't) but if you're reading I just want to express my gratitude for recommending Mechtild of Magdeburg and hope you're doing well. A while back I consulted with one of my college profs on a possible link between Ramana Maharshi and Saint Thomas Aquinas (by extension St. Denis/Cloud of Unkowing) on being and essence. He said I might be onto something and to look at Thomas Cajetan's commentary where he discusses whether being is primum cognitum. I just want to organize my thoughts about this, but if I end up writing anything in the course of doing so, I will post it here. I've pretty much doxxed myself by mentioning this idea, but whatever. Not on the web very much at all these days (highly recommend, it's good to sink deep). God bless you anons

Is this just an orthodox thread? If so, which branch?

>>40775093
I'm reading through Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, and while I absolutely affirm the Nicene Creed and reject his Partialism, a lot of his teachings make a lot of sense. I think he received at least some spiritual insight or intuition, even if I can't accept his grander claims of prophecy.

>>40775093
Sorry, didn't mean to reply to you here >>40775232

Speaking of Mithraism, I have no idea why the worst of the worst had to hijack some of his symbolism to drive a narrative that is so severely botched *and* unrelated to him. I blame the French, for starters.
You know who I'm speaking to and about.

>>40774233
Definitely shouldn't be careless
>Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep
Romans 12:15

>>40774905
Not saying it's sleep paralysis, i an saying that it's best to be skeptical concerning these things
>>40775093
Who is sexanon?
>>40775169
Yeah we are Nicene Christians, no denomination specifically, OP is Catholic though
>>40775232
Yeah we talked about that, what's good is good, what isn't can be disregarded

>>40768929 (OP)
I've been a lukewarm Catholic most of my younger years but I've been wanting to grow spiritually, where would I get started?

>>40776125
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUvaY94L8xZmDO7bb_UsjdBtbNG0bGRLe&si=WLgLFJkPXwE16hW9
Read Theologia Germanica then The Cloud of Unknowing

>>40774233
Would that depend on what one considers to be enlightened?

>>40776160
>Theologia Germanica
Isn't that a Protestant text?

>>40776294
14th century Catholic text

>>40773505
John Milton invented the character of Satan as a single dude who used to be an angel or something. John Milton destroyed millions of Christians’ understanding of our own religion. More people believe his comic book villain is real than have actually read the Bible.

>>40776125
Leave the Roman cult and convert to Christianity. You can’t grow spiritually within a system that’s designed to keep you subservient and docile and far from Christ.

>>40775991
>sleep paralysis
this just came up on my algorithm and it's exactly what I needed to hear regarding visions or revelations. One needs to focus on building their vessels and grounding themselves in their relationship and service of God and not worry so much on receiving revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZiITh8MxPA

>>40776699
segment starts at around 9:30

I miss spinster but if she were here I'd definitely creep on her and tease her and she was never able to handle it. Probably better that she left for reddit

I have a list of 45 projects across 5 mediums (Video Games, Cartoons Animated Films, Comics and TV) each with their own codenames.
God gifted me this creativity for a reason but he is letting me know that now is not the time.
How should i store and prepare all of this creativity inside of me until God makes it all ready for me to release?
What other boards/threads should i ask?

>>40778425
go help the alawite spread his golden message

>>40773435
>>40770679

It's me who asked the question originally, I'll give you my thoughts about this topic.

While you are right, and we can say that since God, by definition, is the prime mover, with all things depending on him. From him all authority comes. We can say "he sets the rules", and they are what they are, who are we to question God? But we are human. Mankind, of little faith, questions and doubts God at every turn. "What even is goodness and evil?"; "WHY is goodness good and evil bad?". God, in his love, teaches us wisdom, if we but only humble ourselves before him and seek it. What is the wisdom that answers these questions?

Begin with Job. Pay special attention beginning at Job 33, and finally, at Job 35:2-8, we have the answer we seek.
>2"Do you think this is right? Do you say, 'My righteousness is more than God's'? 3 For you say, 'What advantage will it be to You? What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?' 4 "I will answer you, And your companions with you. 5 Look to the heavens and see; And behold the clouds-- They are higher than you. 6 If you sin, what do you accomplish against Him? Or, if your transgressions are multiplied, what do you do to Him? 7 If you are righteous, what do you give Him? Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 Your wickedness affects a man such as you, And your righteousness a son of man.
There it is. Being a good person, or a bad one, worshiping him, or not; whatever we do doesn't affect him one iota. It affects us! Each other! Ourselves! Goodness is being good to our brothers and sisters in this life. Evil is hurting our brothers and sisters, hurting ourselves. Who can argue with pain? Suffering? Loneliness?

THIS IS OUR GOD! Who defines good and evil as the difference between the things we do to and for each other. "Nothing less than Hell is worthy of man, if he be not worthy of Heaven." - t. Saint Seraphim Rose.

Is anyone familiar with Jan Van Ruusbroec (aka John of Ruysbroeck) and his writings? Came across some quotations of his in "The Desperate Man" by Leon Bloy and it piqued my interest.

>>40768929 (OP)

If jesus his fleshdeath was indeed a payment for our sins then today we no longer suffer, but we still suffer so we know there was no payment

Also jesus didnt die like islam says

>>40775991
>Yeah we talked about that, what's good is good, what isn't can be disregarded
True, we did discuss it last thread, but now that I'm actually reading Heaven and Hell itself, I'm surprised at how profound it actually ended up being. For instance, I'm captivated by his idea that divine love is the union of divine good and divine truth, which allows Swedenborg to interpret Matthew 22:37-40 as hinting towards that loving God is loving the divine good of God, and loving one's neighbor is loving the divine truth revealed through revelation. By basing those two forms of love upon an intentional love of divine good itself and divine truth itself, rather than a purely pragmatic action, it avoids reducing love towards mere utilitarianism. There's a lot of brilliance like that in this book, it definitely tells me that he was onto something greater than even his own church could grasp.

>>40779278
>Also jesus didnt die like islam says
His human nature died, not His divine nature, which would be impossible. Misunderstanding this fact is the same trap that Death of God theologians fall into.

>>40776436
Who or what is Satan then if not the figure from Job and who tempted Jesus?

>>40770648
>>40770694
Thanks for taking the time to reply. The health condition I was born with is genetic and there's no cure (apart from what I'm about to go through, no guarantee it will work) and it affects an extremely tiny amount of people. Not everyone survives it from birth (a young kid died with it during covid years in my country). I am lucky to be alive and have the people around me that I do and each day that I wake up feels like a miracle. I know it will end one day and I'm fine with death, because I look at the world and see everyone else (well, most people) perfectly healthy. I don't care about material goods, I only want to make people feel good and happy and anything I can do to do that, I will. I also have this viewpoint that people have their own faults and I tend to assume they forget or are 'blinded' to helping due to the normal course of life (job, other stresses etc). I have this vision of when I die that my soul will be among stars with the souls of everyone around me and its nothing but pure love, something I don't feel in real life.

Yes I'm not perfect and I make others angry by not doing certain things but for people that I've had in my life, even if they wronged me or did something bad for me and I genuinely care about them, I'll forgive them and try help them out as much as possible. Maybe it's also because I have such a low opinion of myself, that me suffering a great amount for someone else to be happy a little is worth it to me. Sorry for the rant.

I also have dreams of becoming effectively a monk, I've had similar aspirations ever since I was a young kid to just escape 'my' world, but I literally cannot because of my health.

>>40768929 (OP)
what's the christian answer for synchronicities? that it's just God trying to get my attention and show his presence to me?
Jesus said that people can perform miracles if they believe, but i tried to bend a pen with my mind yesterday and it didnt work. so i'm not sure if it's because i have some kind of doubt that's blocking me, or what.
maybe faith is like a muscle that you have to build, and the stronger it gets, the more miracles you can perform. that's my theory so far, anyways

>>40775828
elaborate

>>40776699
I don't want to be mean but honestly a lot of these Jews today who study Kabbalah sound very New Agey
>>40778744
What's the deal with that alawite anon who seems pretty famous here?
>>40778882
Usually we don't say that God sets the rules, this is an old Platonic dilemma
If God decides what's good and bad then it's arbitrary, tomorrow God can make lying good and being truthful bad, but if we say God says what good it because it just is good, then there's something independent of God and superior to him as he directs us to it, so that's why we have to say that God -is- goodness, solving the problem
>>40779114
Yes i am familiar
>>40779278
Please look into the Church Fathers
>Also jesus didnt die like islam says
Good thing we have that faith that came 600 years later from some pagan desert nomads to show us the truth about our faith
>>40779552
Yes these are traditional accounts, something good about Swedenborg is that he still lives in a world where what he says makes sense
The troubadours believed the same thing, that's why they wrote religious love poetry, love of the woman, the beloved, is love of God in a way
>>40780354
>what's the christian answer for synchronicities?
The world is a lot more "magical", synchronicities are real but they happen all the time you just have to notice them, but that's about it they aren't God's revelation to you or anything, most of the time at least since you can receive signs if you ask
>Jesus said that people can perform miracles if they believe, but i tried to bend a pen with my mind yesterday and it didnt work. so i'm not sure if it's because i have some kind of doubt that's blocking me, or what.
Belief can cause you to do miracles, not magic tricks, faith is something you develop, like other virtues, a Saint Paul can do the impossible much more often than the average joe

>>40780175
You sound really nice. Good luck in life anon you deserve it, even though you don't think you do.

>>40778744
Who?

7 Types of Fallen Angels:
>Principalities
>Powers
>Spiritual Wickedness In High Places
>Rulers of the Darkness of This World
>Watchers
>Angels in Chains in the 2nd Heaven (2 Enoch)
>New Fallen Angels

Then there’s the angels beneath the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and Abaddon/Apollyon who is in the Bottomless Pit

>>40781462
The Angels in chains in the 2nd Heaven rebelled in the beginning before the Flood. I have Two Theories:
>This was the First Rebellion, before Satans Rebellion.
>Satan led multiple rebellions and the angels from this were the first to be punished
The Angels who Rebelled during this time are in the spaces between Stars, in total darkness, awaiting judgement. Imprisoned in chains in the 2nd Heaven

>>40781254

Are Ruysbroec's writings worth the read you think?

>>40781430
The Rulers of the Darkness of this World are Seraphim and Cherubim
The Spiritual Wickedness in High Places consists Mostly of Regular Fallen Angels
The Powers are their Own Type of Angel
The Principalities are their Own Type of Angel

>>40781430
>>40781462
>>40781466
>>40781501
>>40781662
Various associations of angelic names and heavens are mostly arbitrary and different texts contradict other ones
There was one "angelic rebellion", it's not a movie war, the rebellion is symbolic to explain the existence of "natural evil", evil not caused by human free will
>>40781511
Dubs
Just get the Classics of Western Spirituality book on him, it will have everything you need inside

When was the Immaculate Conception date established?
I read there was some debate about it, and that Mary's "nativity" was 9 months afterwards.
I just recently learned this was established only just a couple centuries ago, too.

Also does anyone know how far back was Mary designed with a blue starry mantle?

>>40782836
no, you can check in pic rel (I don't have the book handy at the moment to help you out)
also "designed" as opposed to "depicted" implies that textual descriptions are also valid... in which case you'll need to do a lot more digging than checking on the oldest mural / mosaic / icon depictions

good luck and tell us if you find something

>>40782895
Well so far it seems like the oldest depictions of her don't even wear blue all that much.
https://aleteia.org/2018/10/19/the-9-oldest-images-of-mary/

I just thought it was a curious coincidence that there are old murals with Mithras wearing a starry blue cape that reminded me of her mantle.

>>40783051
I see at least three depictions which could be construed to be as "blue" as the grey in your mithras mural (as opposed to "purple" which is the last one)
the point is maybe that did not have the means to make a stable blue color (unless it was cerulean made from lapis lazuli, which was a secret the Egyptians probably did not give away)

meant to write ultramarine, not cerulean lol

>>40783090
Hmm, maybe. But her blue doesnt even look like faded blue or dark blue, it just looks black to me. Which makes more sense considering how women dress in all black in the middle east in many, many parts.

>>40783113
you can't really trust pictures from a book, especially from that time period, unless they say explicitly what pigment it is

>>40783120
Yeah I guess. But its still missing the stars.

Mary veneration is queen of heaven idolatry
Not all the time, but a lot of the time, and the Catholic and Ortho churches don't caution against it

>>40783578
>don't caution against it
It's called the Council of Chalcedon

>>40783631
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon
Ctrl + f "Mary" lists one result, and it's just a sentence that says Jesus was born of Mary

Care to briefly explain what you meant?

>>40783578
>Jesus is God
>Mary is the Mother of Jesus
>Mary is mother of God.

>Jesus is king of heaven and earth
>Mary is mother of Jesus
>That makes Mary queen mother of Heaven and Earth

It's literally that simple.

>>40783648
Yes the queen of heaven exists

She should not be idolized or worshiped

It's literally that simple

John Paul II's papal motto was "everything I have belongs to you" addressed to Mary

>>40783663
Okay, we've established the proper titles given to Mary. Now lets establish intercession.

Do you acknowledge the cloud of witnesses and believe the saints in heaven are alive and aware of what's happening on earth?

>>40783691
I think you're deflecting but yes

>>40783712
>I think you're deflecting
I'm not i'm circling back.

So if the saints in heaven are alive, and James 5:16 tells us
>Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Would you not want the saints prayers? After all, they're already in heaven and closer to God than we are at the moment.
This is what intercession is. It's asking holy and righteous figures to pray over us and put in a good word to the big man.

Do you disagree with these principles?

>>40783744
I never criticized intercession

How about the example I gave from pope John Paul IIs papal motto? Does that, at the very least, sound like it has a strong possibility of being idolatrous? It seems you've made assumptions about what I'm critical of exactly, which is why I gave the specific example to avoid that from happening

>>40782755
Well, doesn't matter much since its a bit convoluted from calendar to calendar. But still the seventh month was regarded as festival of Mithras, and the 8th day of every month was dedicated to Mehr who was conflated with Mithras.
Just another curious coincidence I guess.

>>40783691
>Okay, we've established the proper titles given to Mary.
Were the proper titles given to her established on the texts and books she is mentioned?

>>40783647
>Jesus was born of Mary
ante saecula quidem de Patre genitum secundum deitatem, in novissimis autem diebus eundem propter nos et propter nostram salutem ex Maria virgine Dei genetrice secundum humanitatem
indeed born of the Father before the ages **according to the divinity**, but in the latest days the same born of the virgin Mary, Mother of God **according to the humanity**; for us and for our salvation

>>40783821
Are you being obscure on purpose so nothing you say can be properly examined

Why did that guy delete his posts

>>40783826
I have quoted there the exact words (in Latin for readability, not the original Greek) with which the Council of Chalcedon cautions against mariolatry and excommunicates the Monophysites for it. Do you not understand that if Mary were Mother of Jesus Christ according to His divinity, then she would be equal to the Father? This was the crux of the entire controversy.

>>40783860
I'm confused
>Do you not understand that if Mary were Mother of Jesus Christ according to His divinity, then she would be equal to the Father?
Is this what you believe? That Mary is equal to the Father because Jesus was born according to God's divinity?

>>40783876
I think he means that the entity Jesus embodies is before their time, but to come to this material world he inevitably needs to be birthed by a woman. That does not mean that this woman is mother to the spirit itself that Jesus embodies.

>>40783876
>Is this what you believe?
Is English your first language? The subjunctive mood indicates a hypothetical. Not that it matters, but I am a Chalcedonian Christian and affirm with that sacred Council that Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ according to His humanity, not His divinity.

>>40783878
What does that have to do with Mary being potentially idolized

>>40783899
Are you really this dense or am I missing something? Because not making the distinction makes people think that Mary is some sort of divine goddess.

>>40783920
There is no need for insults, it's just a conversation
Do you think it's possible that one idolizes Mary in practice in spite of understanding this distinction in theory? For example, someone can understand pornography is wrong in theory but still idolize it through practice.
Because this distinction between theory and practice is what I mean when I say it strays close to idolatry. They can pay lip service and say "it's only idolatry if you think Mary is God" but one can still idolize something in practice right?

>>40783878
That's not what I mean. The Church never taught that God the Son needed to be birthed by a woman in order to come into this world. The Creed only states that He was born of the Virgin Mary, not that He needed to be, nor that He couldn't have come into the world in any other way. However God deemed it fitting that His eternal Son would be born of the most perfect of all creatures, and this is the reason for the honor that the Church gives to her. Look up "hyperdulia"

>>40783943
Yeah is that guy dense or something?

>>40783943
>never taught that God the Son needed to be birthed by a woman in order to come into this world.
And yet they did that instead of just having him be born of a rock like Mithras did. If only they'd taken a cue from his story rather than kill it, you wouldn't be in this situation.
Unfortunately you either have to choose whether Jesus came as a mortal or not. Because unless he is explicitly a metaphor for something, he would need to be birthed from a woman.
The problem is that she didnt have as much relevance until people wanted to equate her with the Venus female archetype, like Aset and Horus and stuff like that.
I think the whole purity thing is hogwash except to ensure that no one thinks the lord was actually having sex with a woman to be birthed.

>>40783962
>or am I missing something?
Yes I still think you are dense, and now the other guy too, heh.
No one can stop you from venerating or praying to an entity that brings you comfort or peace. However, for many its been a point of contention of her importance since slowly she has been overtaking many other figures in the Bible.

>>40783998
>No one can stop you from venerating or praying to an entity that brings you comfort or peace.
Nor did I ask you to

>>40783980
If the Church were to take a cue from the story of Mithras, wouldn't it kill the celestial bull? But there he is in the tetramorph.

>>40783980
>he would need to be birthed from a woman
Why? This sounds a lot like you trying to trap God in human logic, which is always a stupid path of thought.

>>40783998
"For many" is weasel words. For whom exactly is it a point of contention? I pointed to a specific theological controversy of the fifth century A.D. and its outcome for Christians. Give me an example of people worshipping Mary as very God, please, and bonus points if you can show me people doing this in spite of them believing that she is only a creature.
There is a lot of idolatry and superstition in the "Catholic" world but I'm not aware of any that centers on Mary. Much of it actually tries to replace her, as cf. the cults of Santa Muerte or certain of Pachamama.

>>40783149
>But its still missing the stars
you are saying like I was advocating the theory that says there is a concordance lol
in fact I have no idea if there is one... sounds interesting though

but returning to the subject check this out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_stars
twelve starts (for the twelve constellations) and the way they are depicted on the mantle of Mithras can both refer to the Sphere of the Fixed Stars i.e. the one following the Sphere of Saturn but before the angelic hierarchies (my knowledge may be rusty so if anybody remembers more exactly, please correct me if I'm wrong); same goes for the Big Dipper (i.e. represents the fixed stars) which sometimes was represented by a swastika

the depictions themselves seem to be from the Renaissance (ultramarine in the Western World in the 1400s and the Crown of Stars in the 1600s) while the start of giving consideration to Mary was probably around the 1100s and 1200s so you might be onto something with regards to finding analogies with Roman era stuff (including from Greece, Levant, Middle East etc.)

>>40784140
Yeah I just brought it up because there's so much borrowing and overlap between symbols of entities that may seem unrelated. Its fun to make connections.

As for the stars in his cape, some say its the Pleiades with the bull thing, I think it makes more sense to be Orion considering his positioning. Could even be the 7 known planets, too.

>>40784130
>Give me an example of people worshipping Mary as very God, please, and bonus points if you can show me people doing this in spite of them believing that she is only a creature.
I'm NTA but I gave an example here
>>40783663
I don't know if that satisfies your demand if "as very God" but I think it seems close enough at face value. I'd be interested in how someone would explain it away

>>40784209
That anon probably isnt aware of her strong cult in Catholicism and especially Hispanic countries.
Also, its not like Christianity exists in a vacuum in relation to other religions and faiths. Praying to Mary is probably reaching out to entities that relate to other "mother goddess" archetypes like Aset (Isis in Greek).

>>40784209
>Totus tuus
This does not translate to "everything I have belongs to you," it literally means "totally yours." John Paul II got this motto from St. Louis de Montfort's "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" which describes a way of consecrating oneself to her. Since this is probably the most extreme form of Marian devotion in existence, it's well worth examining as a test case. It is actually a pledge like the chivalrous vows of love and loyalty that knights would give to their ladies in the medieval courts; that is their model. St. Louis says in his book that "what is essential in this devotion consists in the interior" and elaborates, "these may be expressed in four words: to do all our actions by Mary, with Mary, in Mary, and for Mary; so that we may do them all the more perfectly by Jesus, with Jesus, in Jesus and for Jesus" (Part II, Chapter IV). That sums it up nicely as far as my understanding goes, and you may conclude what you will.

>>40784299
>It is actually a pledge like the chivalrous vows of love and loyalty that knights would give to their ladies in the medieval courts; that is their model
But this serves a practical and worldly function, in a similar sense as a police officer being totally "devoted" to his community or superiors.
Why would an identical devotion to Mary be necessary in a spiritual sense?

>>40784339
>But this serves a practical and worldly function, in a similar sense as a police officer being totally "devoted" to his community or superiors.
No, this obviously doesn't accurately describe the relationship between a knight and his lady.
>Why would an identical devotion to Mary be necessary in a spiritual sense?
Because of love.

>>40784389
>No, this obviously doesn't accurately describe the relationship between a knight and his lady.
Yes it does

Do you see how such responses are meaningless? It makes me think you don't actually want to engage

>Because of love
Surely you can love something without total devotion. Even so, why would Mary be distinct as to any other brother or sister or even enemy who we are also called to "love perfectly"?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3z2mUc7aiWc

>>40784399
>Do you see how such responses are meaningless? It makes me think you don't actually want to engage
I don't want to waste time repeating important historical context that would be readily available to you if you were actually interested in finding it out. Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
>Surely you can love something without total devotion.
Of course.
>Even so, why would Mary be distinct as to any other brother or sister or even enemy who we are also called to "love perfectly"?
Since she bore the Redeemer of mankind, can there be anyone in heaven or earth who is not her child?

I brought up two little things about Mary that coincided with Mithras' symbolism and the thread was overtaken with Mary debate.
Because of course it would.

>>40784456
>Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
They could if they wanted to. I don't see why that's a substantial difference.
>Since she bore the Redeemer of mankind, can there be anyone in heaven or earth who is not her child?
We are born of the Holy Spirit not of Mary. This analogy only seems to blur the lines between idolatry and veneration even more.

If you're getting frustrated, don't feel obliged to continue engaging.

I mean poetry itself isn't really in vogue but I'm sure police officers perform acts of love and service to their superiors that express the same message all the time.

>>40784298
>Praying to Mary is probably reaching out to entities that relate to other "mother goddess" archetypes like Aset (Isis in Greek).
technically one should not praying "to Mary" but asking for Mary's intercession (so she prays for you, to the Lord!)... technically... I mean it's the priest's role to explain this stuff to the believer, that's why Dominicans and Jesuits rock, they are specialized in explaining things

anyway, my opinion is that if anybody is serious about praying he or she should get a siddur and look into how Jews pray... they are a people serious about praying (the tradition being more or less the same as in the time of Jesus), practically all their religion and activities revolve around praying... Christianity (at least the Big Four: Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism) is more of a "multimedia" religion with architecture + watching the priests perform, rituals and stuff, processions, theater... I'm not saying this as a bad thing, I love it!

>>40784473
>They could if they wanted to. I don't see why that's a substantial difference.
Obviously they could if they wanted to, the point is that they don't. So what inspired knights and troubadours to leave us so many literary monuments to their ladies? Not a sense of duty.
>We are born of the Holy Spirit not of Mary
She is His spouse.

>>40784494
>Obviously they could if they wanted to, the point is that they don't. So what inspired knights and troubadours to leave us so many literary monuments to their ladies? Not a sense of duty.
So what are you saying, that it's love? Yes police officers perform acts of love to their superiors all the time. In fact lots of employees do if they enjoy working for someone. If there's some more obvious point I'm missing, feel free to explain it explicitly, but it just seems like you dug yourself into a hole and hoping to bluster and handwave your way out of it
>She is His spouse
Not the Church? Which would include Mary.

>>40784456
>>40784473
>Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
if you are serious about it, seek and you shall find out
usually there exist publishers specialized in works written by policemen and medics who are "tortured by their talent" and need an outlet... anyway you won't know that that the author is a medic or a policeman unless you know them personally, work in the field of publishing (think /lit), or connect the dots
at least this was the case 10 years ago in my country (you could order the books online, I was never curious though)... maybe they went out of business since

>>40784509
>police officers perform acts of love to their superiors all the time
I wouldn't say "going the extra mile" and "being genuinely interested" are acts of love (although if you contradict me, I won't disagree)
the fact that in most structures there is no love after marriage (e.g. joining the police) because you are hierarchically subordinated to your superior and must do everything he says, even if he asks you to spit on the crucifix
once you are in the system there is not place to serve two masters... that's why the western world is so special, it's the only region in the world where police is against those who break the law and not against those who respect the law (as absurd as it sounds... if you don't believe me dig into it)
that's also why criminal scum are so angry at the fact that police in the western world is (relatively to the non-western world) not corrupt and campaign all the time against the police, even on a political level (e.g. Democratic party)

sadly the group that religiously considers that a corrupt police is the only good police are the Jews, it's written in all their "training materials" with the argument of in case of MUH HOLOCAUST a corrupt police may save their asses... imagine setting the world on fire and then fighting the firefighters just because you are ashamed of having committed some petty crime

>>40784509
>So what are you saying, that it's love?
I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it. Yes, police officers, as all humans, perform many acts of love in their lives to the people who are important to them. But the love between neighbors is different from the love between spouses, again different from the love between parent and child. Courtly love was a peculiar thing as a matter of historical fact, and I'm just trying to draw your attention to it since it's pertinent to your query about "totus tuus" (did you forget?)
>Not the Church? Which would include Mary.
The Church is styled the bride of Christ, as well as His mystical body, but Mary is called spouse of the Holy Ghost because of a specific scene in Saint Luke's gospel that is also mentioned in the Nicene Creed. When we say that we are born of the Holy Ghost we are professing an adoptive brotherhood with Christ. Your question was why Mary would be distinct from any other brother or sister in Him. The answer is that He Himself was subject to her while He lived on earth (Luke 2:51). So her devotees imagine that serving her is a way of imitating Him.

Here's the frustrating thing for me. I mentioned a lot of stuff in this thread already that could serve as so many points of departure to find things out for yourself, but you seem to be more interested in debating me than the ostensible subject matter. Why is that?

>>40784646
>I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it
You have a large ego unbecoming of a servant of God
>Courtly love was a peculiar thing as a matter of historical fact, and I'm just trying to draw your attention to it since it's pertinent to your query about "totus tuus" (did you forget?)
Draw my attention? Spell it out. This conversation would have progressed a long time ago if you would. You have only yourself to blame, I'm not here to read minds or play guessing games.
>The answer is that He Himself was subject to her while He lived on earth (Luke 2:51). So her devotees imagine that serving her is a way of imitating Him.
For one, He could not have been "totally" subject to her, or He would not have wandered away from her in favor of His Father's business. Secondly, one could interpret His obedience in this sense as any child is obedient to their mother. I find this logic unconvincing to the point at hand
>Here's the frustrating thing for me. I mentioned a lot of stuff in this thread already that could serve as so many points of departure to find things out for yourself, but you seem to be more interested in debating me than the ostensible subject matter. Why is that?
Because I still want to ask you questions and understand what you are telling me. Are you trying to shoo me off so you can have the last word? I'll stop replying if you want me to

>>40784646
>I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it
You act as if this is a student-teacher relationship and we aren't all equals here to learn from each other

>>40784509
>In fact lots of employees do if they enjoy working for someone
You should only enjoy working for the Glory of the Lord, or at least in order to draw closer to him.
If you don't, you are either
1. a wife working for her husband, dedicated 100% to him, body and soul; that very noble and the best thing a woman can do beside becoming a nun.
2. a homosexual (funnily enough "jew" and "homosexual" were synonims in Central Europe and Northern Italy as late as the 1800s...while in Southern Italy "homosexual" and "criminal" are still synonims)

I'm not saying one can't uphold law and order if he loves the Lord more than himself... on the contrary! I'm saying you can't do that if you are busy sucking off your hierarchical superior or taking bribes.

>>40784730
>we are equals so we must only bark at each other, no learning allowed!
lol ok seinfeld

>>40784743
>no learning allowed
Um....
>learn from each other

>>40784751
that's what that anon wanted to help you with... but don't worry, dogs are valuable too.... maybe not in the city though... too much bork-bork-bork is not very neighbourly

>>40784721
>You have a large ego unbecoming of a servant of God
Very true, I am a wretched sinner.
>Draw my attention? Spell it out. This conversation would have progressed a long time ago if you would.
It takes a lifetime to understand religion. Volumes have been written on medieval minnesang and troubadour poetry trying to understand the mentality of the courtiers. You're not going to find easy and definitive answers on the chinese underwater basket weaving forum no matter how you demand them.
>I'm not here to read minds or play guessing games.
Is that what you call thinking for yourself?
>For one, He could not have been "totally" subject to her, or He would not have wandered away from her in favor of His Father's business.
You're presuming that He was not allowed to wander off, i.e., that His obedience was the same as any child's obedience to His mother. But devotees of Mary don't generally believe that. In the Bible God effectively asks her permission to be born of her. That's a kind of submission unknown to any other child.
>Because I still want to ask you questions and understand what you are telling me.
If you wanted to understand what I have said, wouldn't you want to look into one or two things that I suggest might help you to understand it, so that an intelligent and informed conversation could happen? Or is that a distraction from the important work of changing the subject to my questionable motives?

>>40784809
>It takes a lifetime to understand religion. Volumes have been written on medieval minnesang and troubadour poetry trying to understand the mentality of the courtiers. You're not going to find easy and definitive answers on the chinese underwater basket weaving forum no matter how you demand them
Bro what are you talking about? That was just about the courtly love thing, whatever point you were trying to make about it.

>>40784887
To recap: it's the basis of the "totus tuus" motto that St. Louis de Montfort uses to sum up his devotion to Mary and which John Paul II later adopts. The question was how it isn't idolatry to address such words to Mary and, following on that, what kind of spiritual value the bond between knight and lady could have, such that some would apply it to Mary. There's no way to just spell out the answer to that question and make it satisfying, so the best I can do is to say that you can peruse the material in question, upon which it won't be clear what it means, but it will be obvious that its authors and audiences saw a higher value in it. As I already explained, the "totus tuus," or total consecration to Mary, comes out of that tradition, and adopts its language, imagery, etc. So you have to understand the one to begin to come to grips with the other.

>>40784938
>There's no way to just spell out the answer to that question and make it satisfying
If that's the case then it isn't well understood and shouldn't be practiced
At least insofar as our understanding

>>40784947
The people who practice it understand it because they grew up living it, but because you did not, you have the privilege of an impartial and erudite perspective, if you are really interested.

>>40784965
That sounds more like the people who grew up practicing it never took the time to question it, if they aren't capable of explaining it