Thread 40768929

Never give up Edition!

Christian Esotericism is the inner and/or mystical aspect of the Christian Religion, it includes:
>Christian Gnosis (Clement of Alexandria)
>Desert Fathers Spirituality (Evagrius Ponticus)
>Catholic Contemplative Tradition (Bonaventure)
>Hesychasm (Gregory Palamas)
>Chivalry (Wolfram von Eschenbach)
>Christian Alchemy (George Ripley)
>Rhineland Mysticism (Meister Eckhart)
>Christian Cabala (Johannes Reuchlin)
>Paracelsianism (Paracelsus)
>Rosicrucianism (Robert Fludd)
>Christian theosophy (Jakob Böhme)
>Martinism (Louise Claude de Saint-Martin)
>Swedenborgianism (Swedenborg)
>Magical Idealism (Novalis)
>Romanticism (Baader)
>Anthroposophy (Rudolf Steiner)
>Sophiology (Sergei Bulgakov)
>Christian Hermeticism (Valentin Tomberg)
>Fourth Way (Boris Mouravieff)
>Christian Traditionalism (Jean Borella)
>Divine Love (James Padgett)
And much more, so let's continue to talk about it!

>Resources (WIP)
https://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/cp.htm
https://jacobboehmeonline.com/
https://archive.org/details/awakening-to-divine-wisdom-christian-initiation-into-three-worl-nodrm_202202/mode/1up
https://janelead.org/resources.html
https://archive.org/details/bookofcontemplat00unde/
https://archive.org/details/rudolf-steiner-book-collection/
https://swedenborg.com/bookstore/free-ebooks-downloads/
https://www.gornahoor.net/?page_id=47
https://archive.org/details/meditations-on-the-tarot/
https://files.catbox.moe/8n4061.djvu (Meditations on the Tarot)
https://eliasartista.substack.com/
https://passtheword.org
https://catenabible.com/mt/1

>>40768929 (OP)
Previous thread >>40735785

>>40768929 (OP)
New post on Gnosticism https://eliasartista.substack.com/p/christianity-and-gnosticism

>>40768929 (OP)
Why Christianitys early competitor for the op?

>>40769482
It's pretty and it's related to>>40769428

Take the Blakepill

> "If there is no morality without God, why are things moral (or not) with God?"

This was posted on another board, likely an attempted troll, but still a very deep question if one genuinely considers it. I'm curious what anons here think, or maybe someone else has had a good answer. I personally think to answer this question completely and thoroughly is to explain a fundamental axiom of the faith.

>>40768930
Orthodox here, i've been reading Philokalia in the past 2 weeks and it's insane how good it is, kinda hard at time but the advice there is insane

>>40762841

Anon, I'll pray for you. But I need you to do something for yourself.
> Not sure if it's me
This is a very hard and very personal question that everyone needs to ask themselves occasionally. Ironically, this type of deep introspection cannot be performed alone. Thankfully, even when we are alone, in both a physical and abstract sense, we are never alone in a spiritual sense. We have been given the scriptures, tradition, and the Holy Spirit. Although, it's very good to also have someone who knows you well to help you with this process. You are measuring who you are against who you could be; then the the question is ,"who could you be?". Who you could be varies very much so between what you set your standard as. The scriptures tell us first and foremost, you should be pleasing to God, the rest of the world is vanity. However, we are given wisdom in how we can be both pleasing to our fellow brothers and sisters, and to God. "Be good to everybody, a strength to the weak, a joy to the joyful, be the laughter in the grief, give your love freely." The truth is we all fall short of who we could be, but when we look at inward we always find how we can be better.

It's useful to have someone in whom you trust, in whom you respect, in whom you see righteousness, who knows you enough to be comfortable to tell you the things you might now want to hear. Sometimes we can be huge dicks, or have off putting mannerisms, say things that rub people the wrong way. These are always subjective, but we need to occasionally hear such criticism.

>>40770545
When we speak about morality we say, "x is right, y is wrong, right is good, wrong is bad", we also claim that "a is good, b is better", so we both claim that there exists goodness and that goodness different things don't just participate in it, but also participate in it on different levels, creating a hierarchy of things participating in goodness, that pressures a perfect goodness all other goodness in the world is a derivative off, and we call that goodness God
So we say that there is good because God is good, you can choose goodness or not, its up to you
Without God there is no standard, good and evil then are dependant on opinion, my good is your bad and vice versa, there have been attempts at constructing some sort of morality without God, but those systems always lead to the objective existence of good and evil outside of human opinion, making goodness a real existence independent of us, and when Plato did that with his theories of forms, he called goodness the highest form, identified it with the Pythagorean One, and called it God, so any objective system of morality leads to God
>>40770563
Care to share your thoughts?

>>40770648
>>40762841

> No one offering to help, being there for me,, going out of their way to do something extra or make something easy for me, just nothing. I just feel a bit lost, I am not sure if it's me.

After you have examined the plank in your own eye, it's time to examine your "friends and family". Truly, in trying times you will know who your friends and family are. If after looking at yourself, and dispassionately examining your relationships, you may need to have a conversation with these people, and maybe even let go from your life.

>>40769482
What do you mean 'why'? Its only the superior version...

>>40770694

* Let these people go from your life

>>40770744
Damn probably a millisecond away from getting the dubs, hum

My journey through Christianity has been marked by constant warfare with small periods of peace. Every fall is like returning to stake 0 again and is even harder to get back. But there are some things I have learned about myself and God in this journey. At first I thought that I was the agent of my own conversion, or that I was already ''changed'' at some point; this made the times when I fell a nightmare, and I tried to rationally think of ways to not fall again, but that all led to frustrations. The more you think you can or you can't win against satanic power, the stronger it gets. The key is to trust in God, but as ''easy'' as that advice seems to be, it isn't (at least for me).

Consequently, those times made me reflect about how it must be hard for other people drowned in vices or emotions to control it, and I felt bad for them and even for the people that wronged me because I too had done things because I let my emotions and vices take control in the past more easily. With this I kind of learned to forgive myself more often. But of course, when you think you've made some progress, instantly, you will be tested in this matter, and here is where I got stuck right now. God's testing is about seeing if you will let what is pulling you down go, and it took me time to understand this is what he truly wants me to do, all of us to do... The problem is the next step is to let go of the things that "''define''" me, that sustain my ego, and when I face it, I can't do the jump that Kierkegaard talked about. I will either go to hell or purgatory if I keep this up because even if I want to do it, I can't bring myself right now to do it, and who knows how much time I have? Sorry to blog here this much.

>>40770882
>Purgatory
Most people will end up in Purgatory, as you see yourself the struggle is too great to beat in this life, that's why believers who are flawed will spend a period in Purgatory until they're ready for Heaven, only Saints die and go to Heaven right then and there
Just do what you can, what matters is the intent not the result, don't give up, try to be better

>>40770245
Yes.

is roman catholic traditionalism esoteric chirstianity?
Defense of the truth in organized church hierarchy, but not right now. Sedevacantism and Lefebvreism.

Defense of church dogmas and orthodoxy.

what do you guys think of holy mass it self?

>>40768929 (OP)
Yes

>>40772089
>is roman catholic traditionalism esoteric chirstianity?
No, it is exoteric. It is the true ecclesiastical hierarchy as opposed to the modernist counterfeit.
>what do you guys think of holy mass it self?
It is Calvary made present on the altar by the power of almighty God. Christ's sixth word upon the Cross was "tetelestai" and St. Dionysius calls the Holy Eucharist the initiation of initiations, which actually does gesture at something esoteric. But to put it simply: whether the sacraments constitute an "initiation" is hidden, inasmuch as the graces received in holy communion are always wisely proportioned to the disposition of the communicant.

>>40770545
existence is a hierarchy, God sets things because we are his creation. if there is no God, then existence is a democracy, and this leads to pluralistic subjective reductionism applied to conscience of morality, existence then is taken for granted, and that is a fallen state of being, people being segregated by their own feigned morality while ignoring that of others, after all, it is a tower babel style mess.

Just learned that John Milton believed theogony by hesiod was inspired by Satan, and apparently Justin martyr and athenagoras felt similarly

>>40773505
Come to think of it, Zeus does seem kind of evil like with all the rape

>>40768929 (OP)
Videos on Gnosis, its various types (SPG, UPG & VPG) and Gnosticism:

https://youtu.be/0F7knBtLsNs
https://youtu.be/260L-DEZVQ0
https://youtu.be/diHf_Tup6tE

>>40773525
He was also responsible for *the* flood

Question. Does an enlightened person feel strong grief, or is he aloof so much that he doesn't care?

>>40774233
>does his skin not burn?

>>40773505
Hesiod and Homer were seen as somewhat controversial, since they're the basis of the later Greek Pagan faith, but they were also seen, in particular Hesiod, as affirming a form of Monotheism

Jew here. During hypnagogia this morning the phosphenes behind my eyes morphed into a photorealistic clear lake with what I perceived as the Spirit of God upon it and I felt a sense of peace and tranquility. The lake then started coming closer to me and opened up at light speed sucking me in like a wormhole. I saw what I can only describe as the Ma'Ase Bereshith (Work of Creation). I had a beaming smile this whole time and a feeling of incredible bliss. There were holy beings all around the blue vortex of cloud that I was traveling through at near light speed. At the end I saw a marvelous instrument, it looked like a long cylindrical flanged mace head imploding/turning in on itself slowly. I perceived this as the crusher of the Chariot, with which God will destroy the wicked. I had a glimpse of this instrument for a few moments, and then I was in the tunnel again. I was moaning quietly at this point and forced myself to open my eyes, when I marveled at what I had just experienced, which was all of about 25 seconds. I felt contentment, Then while pondering the experience I started to feel a slight bit of dread, which subsided. Crazy stuff. Google says not enough DMT is released during hypnagogia to cause hallucinations. HallaluYah blessed be the Name of God.

>>40774854
Mate you sure that wasn't just a dream because I get sleep paralysis and even after the hallucinations stop and i can move again i keep seeing stuff with my eyes closed

>>40774869
Could be. but the only times Ive had sleep paralysis was as a kid, I saw insects flying around me or dinosaurs and it was terrifying. This experience wasn't scary, it was ecstatic and i wasn't "paralyzed" per say.

Dunno if sexanon still frequents this general (I usually don't) but if you're reading I just want to express my gratitude for recommending Mechtild of Magdeburg and hope you're doing well. A while back I consulted with one of my college profs on a possible link between Ramana Maharshi and Saint Thomas Aquinas (by extension St. Denis/Cloud of Unkowing) on being and essence. He said I might be onto something and to look at Thomas Cajetan's commentary where he discusses whether being is primum cognitum. I just want to organize my thoughts about this, but if I end up writing anything in the course of doing so, I will post it here. I've pretty much doxxed myself by mentioning this idea, but whatever. Not on the web very much at all these days (highly recommend, it's good to sink deep). God bless you anons

Is this just an orthodox thread? If so, which branch?

>>40775093
I'm reading through Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, and while I absolutely affirm the Nicene Creed and reject his Partialism, a lot of his teachings make a lot of sense. I think he received at least some spiritual insight or intuition, even if I can't accept his grander claims of prophecy.

>>40775093
Sorry, didn't mean to reply to you here >>40775232

Speaking of Mithraism, I have no idea why the worst of the worst had to hijack some of his symbolism to drive a narrative that is so severely botched *and* unrelated to him. I blame the French, for starters.
You know who I'm speaking to and about.

>>40774233
Definitely shouldn't be careless
>Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep
Romans 12:15

>>40774905
Not saying it's sleep paralysis, i an saying that it's best to be skeptical concerning these things
>>40775093
Who is sexanon?
>>40775169
Yeah we are Nicene Christians, no denomination specifically, OP is Catholic though
>>40775232
Yeah we talked about that, what's good is good, what isn't can be disregarded

>>40768929 (OP)
I've been a lukewarm Catholic most of my younger years but I've been wanting to grow spiritually, where would I get started?

>>40776125
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUvaY94L8xZmDO7bb_UsjdBtbNG0bGRLe&si=WLgLFJkPXwE16hW9
Read Theologia Germanica then The Cloud of Unknowing

>>40774233
Would that depend on what one considers to be enlightened?

>>40776160
>Theologia Germanica
Isn't that a Protestant text?

>>40776294
14th century Catholic text

>>40773505
John Milton invented the character of Satan as a single dude who used to be an angel or something. John Milton destroyed millions of Christians’ understanding of our own religion. More people believe his comic book villain is real than have actually read the Bible.

>>40776125
Leave the Roman cult and convert to Christianity. You can’t grow spiritually within a system that’s designed to keep you subservient and docile and far from Christ.

>>40775991
>sleep paralysis
this just came up on my algorithm and it's exactly what I needed to hear regarding visions or revelations. One needs to focus on building their vessels and grounding themselves in their relationship and service of God and not worry so much on receiving revelation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZiITh8MxPA

>>40776699
segment starts at around 9:30

I miss spinster but if she were here I'd definitely creep on her and tease her and she was never able to handle it. Probably better that she left for reddit

I have a list of 45 projects across 5 mediums (Video Games, Cartoons Animated Films, Comics and TV) each with their own codenames.
God gifted me this creativity for a reason but he is letting me know that now is not the time.
How should i store and prepare all of this creativity inside of me until God makes it all ready for me to release?
What other boards/threads should i ask?

>>40778425
go help the alawite spread his golden message

>>40773435
>>40770679

It's me who asked the question originally, I'll give you my thoughts about this topic.

While you are right, and we can say that since God, by definition, is the prime mover, with all things depending on him. From him all authority comes. We can say "he sets the rules", and they are what they are, who are we to question God? But we are human. Mankind, of little faith, questions and doubts God at every turn. "What even is goodness and evil?"; "WHY is goodness good and evil bad?". God, in his love, teaches us wisdom, if we but only humble ourselves before him and seek it. What is the wisdom that answers these questions?

Begin with Job. Pay special attention beginning at Job 33, and finally, at Job 35:2-8, we have the answer we seek.
>2"Do you think this is right? Do you say, 'My righteousness is more than God's'? 3 For you say, 'What advantage will it be to You? What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?' 4 "I will answer you, And your companions with you. 5 Look to the heavens and see; And behold the clouds-- They are higher than you. 6 If you sin, what do you accomplish against Him? Or, if your transgressions are multiplied, what do you do to Him? 7 If you are righteous, what do you give Him? Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 Your wickedness affects a man such as you, And your righteousness a son of man.
There it is. Being a good person, or a bad one, worshiping him, or not; whatever we do doesn't affect him one iota. It affects us! Each other! Ourselves! Goodness is being good to our brothers and sisters in this life. Evil is hurting our brothers and sisters, hurting ourselves. Who can argue with pain? Suffering? Loneliness?

THIS IS OUR GOD! Who defines good and evil as the difference between the things we do to and for each other. "Nothing less than Hell is worthy of man, if he be not worthy of Heaven." - t. Saint Seraphim Rose.

Is anyone familiar with Jan Van Ruusbroec (aka John of Ruysbroeck) and his writings? Came across some quotations of his in "The Desperate Man" by Leon Bloy and it piqued my interest.

>>40768929 (OP)

If jesus his fleshdeath was indeed a payment for our sins then today we no longer suffer, but we still suffer so we know there was no payment

Also jesus didnt die like islam says

>>40775991
>Yeah we talked about that, what's good is good, what isn't can be disregarded
True, we did discuss it last thread, but now that I'm actually reading Heaven and Hell itself, I'm surprised at how profound it actually ended up being. For instance, I'm captivated by his idea that divine love is the union of divine good and divine truth, which allows Swedenborg to interpret Matthew 22:37-40 as hinting towards that loving God is loving the divine good of God, and loving one's neighbor is loving the divine truth revealed through revelation. By basing those two forms of love upon an intentional love of divine good itself and divine truth itself, rather than a purely pragmatic action, it avoids reducing love towards mere utilitarianism. There's a lot of brilliance like that in this book, it definitely tells me that he was onto something greater than even his own church could grasp.

>>40779278
>Also jesus didnt die like islam says
His human nature died, not His divine nature, which would be impossible. Misunderstanding this fact is the same trap that Death of God theologians fall into.

>>40776436
Who or what is Satan then if not the figure from Job and who tempted Jesus?

>>40770648
>>40770694
Thanks for taking the time to reply. The health condition I was born with is genetic and there's no cure (apart from what I'm about to go through, no guarantee it will work) and it affects an extremely tiny amount of people. Not everyone survives it from birth (a young kid died with it during covid years in my country). I am lucky to be alive and have the people around me that I do and each day that I wake up feels like a miracle. I know it will end one day and I'm fine with death, because I look at the world and see everyone else (well, most people) perfectly healthy. I don't care about material goods, I only want to make people feel good and happy and anything I can do to do that, I will. I also have this viewpoint that people have their own faults and I tend to assume they forget or are 'blinded' to helping due to the normal course of life (job, other stresses etc). I have this vision of when I die that my soul will be among stars with the souls of everyone around me and its nothing but pure love, something I don't feel in real life.

Yes I'm not perfect and I make others angry by not doing certain things but for people that I've had in my life, even if they wronged me or did something bad for me and I genuinely care about them, I'll forgive them and try help them out as much as possible. Maybe it's also because I have such a low opinion of myself, that me suffering a great amount for someone else to be happy a little is worth it to me. Sorry for the rant.

I also have dreams of becoming effectively a monk, I've had similar aspirations ever since I was a young kid to just escape 'my' world, but I literally cannot because of my health.

>>40768929 (OP)
what's the christian answer for synchronicities? that it's just God trying to get my attention and show his presence to me?
Jesus said that people can perform miracles if they believe, but i tried to bend a pen with my mind yesterday and it didnt work. so i'm not sure if it's because i have some kind of doubt that's blocking me, or what.
maybe faith is like a muscle that you have to build, and the stronger it gets, the more miracles you can perform. that's my theory so far, anyways

>>40775828
elaborate

>>40776699
I don't want to be mean but honestly a lot of these Jews today who study Kabbalah sound very New Agey
>>40778744
What's the deal with that alawite anon who seems pretty famous here?
>>40778882
Usually we don't say that God sets the rules, this is an old Platonic dilemma
If God decides what's good and bad then it's arbitrary, tomorrow God can make lying good and being truthful bad, but if we say God says what good it because it just is good, then there's something independent of God and superior to him as he directs us to it, so that's why we have to say that God -is- goodness, solving the problem
>>40779114
Yes i am familiar
>>40779278
Please look into the Church Fathers
>Also jesus didnt die like islam says
Good thing we have that faith that came 600 years later from some pagan desert nomads to show us the truth about our faith
>>40779552
Yes these are traditional accounts, something good about Swedenborg is that he still lives in a world where what he says makes sense
The troubadours believed the same thing, that's why they wrote religious love poetry, love of the woman, the beloved, is love of God in a way
>>40780354
>what's the christian answer for synchronicities?
The world is a lot more "magical", synchronicities are real but they happen all the time you just have to notice them, but that's about it they aren't God's revelation to you or anything, most of the time at least since you can receive signs if you ask
>Jesus said that people can perform miracles if they believe, but i tried to bend a pen with my mind yesterday and it didnt work. so i'm not sure if it's because i have some kind of doubt that's blocking me, or what.
Belief can cause you to do miracles, not magic tricks, faith is something you develop, like other virtues, a Saint Paul can do the impossible much more often than the average joe

>>40780175
You sound really nice. Good luck in life anon you deserve it, even though you don't think you do.

>>40778744
Who?

7 Types of Fallen Angels:
>Principalities
>Powers
>Spiritual Wickedness In High Places
>Rulers of the Darkness of This World
>Watchers
>Angels in Chains in the 2nd Heaven (2 Enoch)
>New Fallen Angels

Then there’s the angels beneath the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and Abaddon/Apollyon who is in the Bottomless Pit

>>40781462
The Angels in chains in the 2nd Heaven rebelled in the beginning before the Flood. I have Two Theories:
>This was the First Rebellion, before Satans Rebellion.
>Satan led multiple rebellions and the angels from this were the first to be punished
The Angels who Rebelled during this time are in the spaces between Stars, in total darkness, awaiting judgement. Imprisoned in chains in the 2nd Heaven

>>40781254

Are Ruysbroec's writings worth the read you think?

>>40781430
The Rulers of the Darkness of this World are Seraphim and Cherubim
The Spiritual Wickedness in High Places consists Mostly of Regular Fallen Angels
The Powers are their Own Type of Angel
The Principalities are their Own Type of Angel

>>40781430
>>40781462
>>40781466
>>40781501
>>40781662
Various associations of angelic names and heavens are mostly arbitrary and different texts contradict other ones
There was one "angelic rebellion", it's not a movie war, the rebellion is symbolic to explain the existence of "natural evil", evil not caused by human free will
>>40781511
Dubs
Just get the Classics of Western Spirituality book on him, it will have everything you need inside

When was the Immaculate Conception date established?
I read there was some debate about it, and that Mary's "nativity" was 9 months afterwards.
I just recently learned this was established only just a couple centuries ago, too.

Also does anyone know how far back was Mary designed with a blue starry mantle?

>>40782836
no, you can check in pic rel (I don't have the book handy at the moment to help you out)
also "designed" as opposed to "depicted" implies that textual descriptions are also valid... in which case you'll need to do a lot more digging than checking on the oldest mural / mosaic / icon depictions

good luck and tell us if you find something

>>40782895
Well so far it seems like the oldest depictions of her don't even wear blue all that much.
https://aleteia.org/2018/10/19/the-9-oldest-images-of-mary/

I just thought it was a curious coincidence that there are old murals with Mithras wearing a starry blue cape that reminded me of her mantle.

>>40783051
I see at least three depictions which could be construed to be as "blue" as the grey in your mithras mural (as opposed to "purple" which is the last one)
the point is maybe that did not have the means to make a stable blue color (unless it was cerulean made from lapis lazuli, which was a secret the Egyptians probably did not give away)

meant to write ultramarine, not cerulean lol

>>40783090
Hmm, maybe. But her blue doesnt even look like faded blue or dark blue, it just looks black to me. Which makes more sense considering how women dress in all black in the middle east in many, many parts.

>>40783113
you can't really trust pictures from a book, especially from that time period, unless they say explicitly what pigment it is

>>40783120
Yeah I guess. But its still missing the stars.

Mary veneration is queen of heaven idolatry
Not all the time, but a lot of the time, and the Catholic and Ortho churches don't caution against it

>>40783578
>don't caution against it
It's called the Council of Chalcedon

>>40783631
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon
Ctrl + f "Mary" lists one result, and it's just a sentence that says Jesus was born of Mary

Care to briefly explain what you meant?

>>40783578
>Jesus is God
>Mary is the Mother of Jesus
>Mary is mother of God.

>Jesus is king of heaven and earth
>Mary is mother of Jesus
>That makes Mary queen mother of Heaven and Earth

It's literally that simple.

>>40783648
Yes the queen of heaven exists

She should not be idolized or worshiped

It's literally that simple

John Paul II's papal motto was "everything I have belongs to you" addressed to Mary

>>40783663
Okay, we've established the proper titles given to Mary. Now lets establish intercession.

Do you acknowledge the cloud of witnesses and believe the saints in heaven are alive and aware of what's happening on earth?

>>40783691
I think you're deflecting but yes

>>40783712
>I think you're deflecting
I'm not i'm circling back.

So if the saints in heaven are alive, and James 5:16 tells us
>Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Would you not want the saints prayers? After all, they're already in heaven and closer to God than we are at the moment.
This is what intercession is. It's asking holy and righteous figures to pray over us and put in a good word to the big man.

Do you disagree with these principles?

>>40783744
I never criticized intercession

How about the example I gave from pope John Paul IIs papal motto? Does that, at the very least, sound like it has a strong possibility of being idolatrous? It seems you've made assumptions about what I'm critical of exactly, which is why I gave the specific example to avoid that from happening

>>40782755
Well, doesn't matter much since its a bit convoluted from calendar to calendar. But still the seventh month was regarded as festival of Mithras, and the 8th day of every month was dedicated to Mehr who was conflated with Mithras.
Just another curious coincidence I guess.

>>40783691
>Okay, we've established the proper titles given to Mary.
Were the proper titles given to her established on the texts and books she is mentioned?

>>40783647
>Jesus was born of Mary
ante saecula quidem de Patre genitum secundum deitatem, in novissimis autem diebus eundem propter nos et propter nostram salutem ex Maria virgine Dei genetrice secundum humanitatem
indeed born of the Father before the ages **according to the divinity**, but in the latest days the same born of the virgin Mary, Mother of God **according to the humanity**; for us and for our salvation

>>40783821
Are you being obscure on purpose so nothing you say can be properly examined

Why did that guy delete his posts

>>40783826
I have quoted there the exact words (in Latin for readability, not the original Greek) with which the Council of Chalcedon cautions against mariolatry and excommunicates the Monophysites for it. Do you not understand that if Mary were Mother of Jesus Christ according to His divinity, then she would be equal to the Father? This was the crux of the entire controversy.

>>40783860
I'm confused
>Do you not understand that if Mary were Mother of Jesus Christ according to His divinity, then she would be equal to the Father?
Is this what you believe? That Mary is equal to the Father because Jesus was born according to God's divinity?

>>40783876
I think he means that the entity Jesus embodies is before their time, but to come to this material world he inevitably needs to be birthed by a woman. That does not mean that this woman is mother to the spirit itself that Jesus embodies.

>>40783876
>Is this what you believe?
Is English your first language? The subjunctive mood indicates a hypothetical. Not that it matters, but I am a Chalcedonian Christian and affirm with that sacred Council that Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ according to His humanity, not His divinity.

>>40783878
What does that have to do with Mary being potentially idolized

>>40783899
Are you really this dense or am I missing something? Because not making the distinction makes people think that Mary is some sort of divine goddess.

>>40783920
There is no need for insults, it's just a conversation
Do you think it's possible that one idolizes Mary in practice in spite of understanding this distinction in theory? For example, someone can understand pornography is wrong in theory but still idolize it through practice.
Because this distinction between theory and practice is what I mean when I say it strays close to idolatry. They can pay lip service and say "it's only idolatry if you think Mary is God" but one can still idolize something in practice right?

>>40783878
That's not what I mean. The Church never taught that God the Son needed to be birthed by a woman in order to come into this world. The Creed only states that He was born of the Virgin Mary, not that He needed to be, nor that He couldn't have come into the world in any other way. However God deemed it fitting that His eternal Son would be born of the most perfect of all creatures, and this is the reason for the honor that the Church gives to her. Look up "hyperdulia"

>>40783943
Yeah is that guy dense or something?

>>40783943
>never taught that God the Son needed to be birthed by a woman in order to come into this world.
And yet they did that instead of just having him be born of a rock like Mithras did. If only they'd taken a cue from his story rather than kill it, you wouldn't be in this situation.
Unfortunately you either have to choose whether Jesus came as a mortal or not. Because unless he is explicitly a metaphor for something, he would need to be birthed from a woman.
The problem is that she didnt have as much relevance until people wanted to equate her with the Venus female archetype, like Aset and Horus and stuff like that.
I think the whole purity thing is hogwash except to ensure that no one thinks the lord was actually having sex with a woman to be birthed.

>>40783962
>or am I missing something?
Yes I still think you are dense, and now the other guy too, heh.
No one can stop you from venerating or praying to an entity that brings you comfort or peace. However, for many its been a point of contention of her importance since slowly she has been overtaking many other figures in the Bible.

>>40783998
>No one can stop you from venerating or praying to an entity that brings you comfort or peace.
Nor did I ask you to

>>40783980
If the Church were to take a cue from the story of Mithras, wouldn't it kill the celestial bull? But there he is in the tetramorph.

>>40783980
>he would need to be birthed from a woman
Why? This sounds a lot like you trying to trap God in human logic, which is always a stupid path of thought.

>>40783998
"For many" is weasel words. For whom exactly is it a point of contention? I pointed to a specific theological controversy of the fifth century A.D. and its outcome for Christians. Give me an example of people worshipping Mary as very God, please, and bonus points if you can show me people doing this in spite of them believing that she is only a creature.
There is a lot of idolatry and superstition in the "Catholic" world but I'm not aware of any that centers on Mary. Much of it actually tries to replace her, as cf. the cults of Santa Muerte or certain of Pachamama.

>>40783149
>But its still missing the stars
you are saying like I was advocating the theory that says there is a concordance lol
in fact I have no idea if there is one... sounds interesting though

but returning to the subject check this out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_stars
twelve starts (for the twelve constellations) and the way they are depicted on the mantle of Mithras can both refer to the Sphere of the Fixed Stars i.e. the one following the Sphere of Saturn but before the angelic hierarchies (my knowledge may be rusty so if anybody remembers more exactly, please correct me if I'm wrong); same goes for the Big Dipper (i.e. represents the fixed stars) which sometimes was represented by a swastika

the depictions themselves seem to be from the Renaissance (ultramarine in the Western World in the 1400s and the Crown of Stars in the 1600s) while the start of giving consideration to Mary was probably around the 1100s and 1200s so you might be onto something with regards to finding analogies with Roman era stuff (including from Greece, Levant, Middle East etc.)

>>40784140
Yeah I just brought it up because there's so much borrowing and overlap between symbols of entities that may seem unrelated. Its fun to make connections.

As for the stars in his cape, some say its the Pleiades with the bull thing, I think it makes more sense to be Orion considering his positioning. Could even be the 7 known planets, too.

>>40784130
>Give me an example of people worshipping Mary as very God, please, and bonus points if you can show me people doing this in spite of them believing that she is only a creature.
I'm NTA but I gave an example here
>>40783663
I don't know if that satisfies your demand if "as very God" but I think it seems close enough at face value. I'd be interested in how someone would explain it away

>>40784209
That anon probably isnt aware of her strong cult in Catholicism and especially Hispanic countries.
Also, its not like Christianity exists in a vacuum in relation to other religions and faiths. Praying to Mary is probably reaching out to entities that relate to other "mother goddess" archetypes like Aset (Isis in Greek).

>>40784209
>Totus tuus
This does not translate to "everything I have belongs to you," it literally means "totally yours." John Paul II got this motto from St. Louis de Montfort's "True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" which describes a way of consecrating oneself to her. Since this is probably the most extreme form of Marian devotion in existence, it's well worth examining as a test case. It is actually a pledge like the chivalrous vows of love and loyalty that knights would give to their ladies in the medieval courts; that is their model. St. Louis says in his book that "what is essential in this devotion consists in the interior" and elaborates, "these may be expressed in four words: to do all our actions by Mary, with Mary, in Mary, and for Mary; so that we may do them all the more perfectly by Jesus, with Jesus, in Jesus and for Jesus" (Part II, Chapter IV). That sums it up nicely as far as my understanding goes, and you may conclude what you will.

>>40784299
>It is actually a pledge like the chivalrous vows of love and loyalty that knights would give to their ladies in the medieval courts; that is their model
But this serves a practical and worldly function, in a similar sense as a police officer being totally "devoted" to his community or superiors.
Why would an identical devotion to Mary be necessary in a spiritual sense?

>>40784339
>But this serves a practical and worldly function, in a similar sense as a police officer being totally "devoted" to his community or superiors.
No, this obviously doesn't accurately describe the relationship between a knight and his lady.
>Why would an identical devotion to Mary be necessary in a spiritual sense?
Because of love.

>>40784389
>No, this obviously doesn't accurately describe the relationship between a knight and his lady.
Yes it does

Do you see how such responses are meaningless? It makes me think you don't actually want to engage

>Because of love
Surely you can love something without total devotion. Even so, why would Mary be distinct as to any other brother or sister or even enemy who we are also called to "love perfectly"?

>>40784399
>Do you see how such responses are meaningless? It makes me think you don't actually want to engage
I don't want to waste time repeating important historical context that would be readily available to you if you were actually interested in finding it out. Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
>Surely you can love something without total devotion.
Of course.
>Even so, why would Mary be distinct as to any other brother or sister or even enemy who we are also called to "love perfectly"?
Since she bore the Redeemer of mankind, can there be anyone in heaven or earth who is not her child?

I brought up two little things about Mary that coincided with Mithras' symbolism and the thread was overtaken with Mary debate.
Because of course it would.

>>40784456
>Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
They could if they wanted to. I don't see why that's a substantial difference.
>Since she bore the Redeemer of mankind, can there be anyone in heaven or earth who is not her child?
We are born of the Holy Spirit not of Mary. This analogy only seems to blur the lines between idolatry and veneration even more.

If you're getting frustrated, don't feel obliged to continue engaging.

I mean poetry itself isn't really in vogue but I'm sure police officers perform acts of love and service to their superiors that express the same message all the time.

>>40784298
>Praying to Mary is probably reaching out to entities that relate to other "mother goddess" archetypes like Aset (Isis in Greek).
technically one should not praying "to Mary" but asking for Mary's intercession (so she prays for you, to the Lord!)... technically... I mean it's the priest's role to explain this stuff to the believer, that's why Dominicans and Jesuits rock, they are specialized in explaining things

anyway, my opinion is that if anybody is serious about praying he or she should get a siddur and look into how Jews pray... they are a people serious about praying (the tradition being more or less the same as in the time of Jesus), practically all their religion and activities revolve around praying... Christianity (at least the Big Four: Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism) is more of a "multimedia" religion with architecture + watching the priests perform, rituals and stuff, processions, theater... I'm not saying this as a bad thing, I love it!

>>40784473
>They could if they wanted to. I don't see why that's a substantial difference.
Obviously they could if they wanted to, the point is that they don't. So what inspired knights and troubadours to leave us so many literary monuments to their ladies? Not a sense of duty.
>We are born of the Holy Spirit not of Mary
She is His spouse.

>>40784494
>Obviously they could if they wanted to, the point is that they don't. So what inspired knights and troubadours to leave us so many literary monuments to their ladies? Not a sense of duty.
So what are you saying, that it's love? Yes police officers perform acts of love to their superiors all the time. In fact lots of employees do if they enjoy working for someone. If there's some more obvious point I'm missing, feel free to explain it explicitly, but it just seems like you dug yourself into a hole and hoping to bluster and handwave your way out of it
>She is His spouse
Not the Church? Which would include Mary.

>>40784456
>>40784473
>Do police officers compose lyric poetry for their superiors?
if you are serious about it, seek and you shall find out
usually there exist publishers specialized in works written by policemen and medics who are "tortured by their talent" and need an outlet... anyway you won't know that that the author is a medic or a policeman unless you know them personally, work in the field of publishing (think /lit), or connect the dots
at least this was the case 10 years ago in my country (you could order the books online, I was never curious though)... maybe they went out of business since

>>40784509
>police officers perform acts of love to their superiors all the time
I wouldn't say "going the extra mile" and "being genuinely interested" are acts of love (although if you contradict me, I won't disagree)
the fact that in most structures there is no love after marriage (e.g. joining the police) because you are hierarchically subordinated to your superior and must do everything he says, even if he asks you to spit on the crucifix
once you are in the system there is not place to serve two masters... that's why the western world is so special, it's the only region in the world where police is against those who break the law and not against those who respect the law (as absurd as it sounds... if you don't believe me dig into it)
that's also why criminal scum are so angry at the fact that police in the western world is (relatively to the non-western world) not corrupt and campaign all the time against the police, even on a political level (e.g. Democratic party)

sadly the group that religiously considers that a corrupt police is the only good police are the Jews, it's written in all their "training materials" with the argument of in case of MUH HOLOCAUST a corrupt police may save their asses... imagine setting the world on fire and then fighting the firefighters just because you are ashamed of having committed some petty crime

>>40784509
>So what are you saying, that it's love?
I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it. Yes, police officers, as all humans, perform many acts of love in their lives to the people who are important to them. But the love between neighbors is different from the love between spouses, again different from the love between parent and child. Courtly love was a peculiar thing as a matter of historical fact, and I'm just trying to draw your attention to it since it's pertinent to your query about "totus tuus" (did you forget?)
>Not the Church? Which would include Mary.
The Church is styled the bride of Christ, as well as His mystical body, but Mary is called spouse of the Holy Ghost because of a specific scene in Saint Luke's gospel that is also mentioned in the Nicene Creed. When we say that we are born of the Holy Ghost we are professing an adoptive brotherhood with Christ. Your question was why Mary would be distinct from any other brother or sister in Him. The answer is that He Himself was subject to her while He lived on earth (Luke 2:51). So her devotees imagine that serving her is a way of imitating Him.

Here's the frustrating thing for me. I mentioned a lot of stuff in this thread already that could serve as so many points of departure to find things out for yourself, but you seem to be more interested in debating me than the ostensible subject matter. Why is that?

>>40784646
>I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it
You have a large ego unbecoming of a servant of God
>Courtly love was a peculiar thing as a matter of historical fact, and I'm just trying to draw your attention to it since it's pertinent to your query about "totus tuus" (did you forget?)
Draw my attention? Spell it out. This conversation would have progressed a long time ago if you would. You have only yourself to blame, I'm not here to read minds or play guessing games.
>The answer is that He Himself was subject to her while He lived on earth (Luke 2:51). So her devotees imagine that serving her is a way of imitating Him.
For one, He could not have been "totally" subject to her, or He would not have wandered away from her in favor of His Father's business. Secondly, one could interpret His obedience in this sense as any child is obedient to their mother. I find this logic unconvincing to the point at hand
>Here's the frustrating thing for me. I mentioned a lot of stuff in this thread already that could serve as so many points of departure to find things out for yourself, but you seem to be more interested in debating me than the ostensible subject matter. Why is that?
Because I still want to ask you questions and understand what you are telling me. Are you trying to shoo me off so you can have the last word? I'll stop replying if you want me to

>>40784646
>I'm trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to induce you to think about it
You act as if this is a student-teacher relationship and we aren't all equals here to learn from each other

>>40784509
>In fact lots of employees do if they enjoy working for someone
You should only enjoy working for the Glory of the Lord, or at least in order to draw closer to him.
If you don't, you are either
1. a wife working for her husband, dedicated 100% to him, body and soul; that very noble and the best thing a woman can do beside becoming a nun.
2. a homosexual (funnily enough "jew" and "homosexual" were synonims in Central Europe and Northern Italy as late as the 1800s...while in Southern Italy "homosexual" and "criminal" are still synonims)

I'm not saying one can't uphold law and order if he loves the Lord more than himself... on the contrary! I'm saying you can't do that if you are busy sucking off your hierarchical superior or taking bribes.

>>40784730
>we are equals so we must only bark at each other, no learning allowed!
lol ok seinfeld

>>40784743
>no learning allowed
Um....
>learn from each other

>>40784751
that's what that anon wanted to help you with... but don't worry, dogs are valuable too.... maybe not in the city though... too much bork-bork-bork is not very neighbourly

>>40784721
>You have a large ego unbecoming of a servant of God
Very true, I am a wretched sinner.
>Draw my attention? Spell it out. This conversation would have progressed a long time ago if you would.
It takes a lifetime to understand religion. Volumes have been written on medieval minnesang and troubadour poetry trying to understand the mentality of the courtiers. You're not going to find easy and definitive answers on the chinese underwater basket weaving forum no matter how you demand them.
>I'm not here to read minds or play guessing games.
Is that what you call thinking for yourself?
>For one, He could not have been "totally" subject to her, or He would not have wandered away from her in favor of His Father's business.
You're presuming that He was not allowed to wander off, i.e., that His obedience was the same as any child's obedience to His mother. But devotees of Mary don't generally believe that. In the Bible God effectively asks her permission to be born of her. That's a kind of submission unknown to any other child.
>Because I still want to ask you questions and understand what you are telling me.
If you wanted to understand what I have said, wouldn't you want to look into one or two things that I suggest might help you to understand it, so that an intelligent and informed conversation could happen? Or is that a distraction from the important work of changing the subject to my questionable motives?

>>40784809
>It takes a lifetime to understand religion. Volumes have been written on medieval minnesang and troubadour poetry trying to understand the mentality of the courtiers. You're not going to find easy and definitive answers on the chinese underwater basket weaving forum no matter how you demand them
Bro what are you talking about? That was just about the courtly love thing, whatever point you were trying to make about it.

>>40784887
To recap: it's the basis of the "totus tuus" motto that St. Louis de Montfort uses to sum up his devotion to Mary and which John Paul II later adopts. The question was how it isn't idolatry to address such words to Mary and, following on that, what kind of spiritual value the bond between knight and lady could have, such that some would apply it to Mary. There's no way to just spell out the answer to that question and make it satisfying, so the best I can do is to say that you can peruse the material in question, upon which it won't be clear what it means, but it will be obvious that its authors and audiences saw a higher value in it. As I already explained, the "totus tuus," or total consecration to Mary, comes out of that tradition, and adopts its language, imagery, etc. So you have to understand the one to begin to come to grips with the other.

>>40784938
>There's no way to just spell out the answer to that question and make it satisfying
If that's the case then it isn't well understood and shouldn't be practiced
At least insofar as our understanding

>>40784947
The people who practice it understand it because they grew up living it, but because you did not, you have the privilege of an impartial and erudite perspective, if you are really interested.

>>40784965
That sounds more like the people who grew up practicing it never took the time to question it, if they aren't capable of explaining it

>>40784976
>if something can't be explained in muh words then REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>t. tips fedora

>>40785074
You didn't say it "can't" you said they aren't able to because they grew up with it, you made the implication yourself

>>40784976
>>40785113
I'm not >>40785074
but I agree with anon's critique. Understanding something and being able to explain it are two different things. For instance, it's one thing to be a good person and another to be able to explain ethics. But as for taking the time to question things, I don't think it's possible to walk any path of devotion without struggling against your own ignorance. To love anything is to seek to understand it. "How shall this be done, since I know not man?"

>>40785113
I am the anon you replied to in this post, and not the other anon who also replied to you
my insight is simple: what you surround yourself with, and your behavior, determine your thinking; and there are lot of things you can surround yourself with or ways in which you can behave... that don't have any equivalent in thinking (at least not in a way that can be logically expressed)

the obsession with words and explaining away the world is a relatively new phenomenon that has arisen only with "the enlightenment"... even in the Renaissance you would have been considered an eccentric (if not downright batshit crazy) for assuming such case... and yes, I realize that it's the "default" way people perceive the world today

>>40785193
>Understanding something and being able to explain it are two different things
Not really. I wouldn't call it a sufficient understanding at least.
>For instance, it's one thing to be a good person and another to be able to explain ethics.
I actually don't think I'd consider a person truly good if they were only behaving passively due to conditioning rather than making thoughtful and deliberate decisions to do good. I would reference what Jesus said about goodness, "even sinners can love those who do good for them."
Obviously they'd be "good" relatively speaking, but not truly good.
>>40785217
That's probably true due to the influx of the internet and the current age of information. And it's a good thing. I think people will be held accountable by God for not searching their faiths more deeply, because to whom much is given, more will be demanded. We won't have excuses for the errors that we just grew up with. I'm not even saying it IS an error since I'm still here trying to understand it, I'm just saying it isn't an excuse to not look into your own upbringings beliefs

>>40785303
>rather than making thoughtful and deliberate decisions to do good.
Which still doesn't require ethical theory. Phronesis vs episteme, or in the case of the way devotees of Mary understand their devotion vs the way religious scholars understand it, emic vs etic understanding. They have different uses.

>>40785329
>the way devotees of Mary understand their devotion vs the way religious scholars understand it
That's the problem
There doesn't seem to be a sufficient understanding on the part of the devotees if there's an incapacity to explain it
Otherwise I'd agree with you

Bros…I am falling out of the non-denominational idk. It’s over. I am unable to think Christianlike in my daily life, so I will begin attending Church again… I bought a daily devotional book and it has helped, along with a Spiritual Warfare manual

>>40785303
>I'm just saying it isn't an excuse to not look into your own upbringings beliefs
but they probably do look into it because the beliefs they were brought up with are challenged at every pace by the modern world (even if you are a Mormon you can't really evade the 1990+ mainstream technology)
they just don't see anything better or more worthwhile alternative

>>40785367
Maybe. I'm still waiting for the demonstration of that understanding

>>40785365
sounds great
what is a daily devotional book? like a breviary? (that's a Catholic book that says what psalms etc. to pray at every prescribed hour in every specific day of the year)

>>40785365
Non denominational wasn't supposed to mean you don't go to church anon

>>40785377
why?

>>40785384
So I can understand it and extend the benefit of the doubt that my concerns are unfounded.

>>40785349
>There doesn't seem to be a sufficient understanding on the part of the devotees
They wouldn't disagree, if they are serious about their devotion then even if they can teach its principles eloquently, they will still feel stupid and want to understand it better.
But look at your own understanding first. Do you understand their understanding sufficiently to say for sure that it is insufficient? Insufficient for what?

when I hear non denominational I remember black people on youtube explaining for 30 minutes how the Jews killed Jesus
I kinda liked their energy
>captcha: 4KJ8W
lol

>>40785392
what are we talking about? what do you want to understand? sorry I am tired and this was a long discussion and I'm soon going to sleep
kinda lost the plot at the minnesingers

>>40785396
>But look at your own understanding first. Do you understand their understanding sufficiently to say for sure that it is insufficient? Insufficient for what?
Yes, on principle, if they aren't even willing to put forth an explanation without it being questioned.
That's on principle, it applies to any topic.
>>40785402
You or another anon wrote a recap here
>>40784938

>>40785414
>You or another anon wrote a recap here
oh, that's easy, she's a lady and she's in the Bible, and she's the Mother of Jesus Christ
that should be enough
if you need more you'll need to ask the Lord to give you proof and guidance and maybe, after the discernment applied like St. Paul says you should, you may even impart your wisdom
you seem the intellectual type after all

>>40785414
>Yes, on principle, if they aren't even willing to put forth an explanation without it being questioned.
I assume you mean that it's insufficient if they aren't willing to put forth an explanation that will be questioned. I don't remember asserting that they are unwilling or unable to do this. There is in fact a great deal of controversy on the record. It's quite interminable. So the facts are that explanations have been given by devotees in response to pointed questions by critics, but the critics aren't satisfied by the answers, which is what I have been telling you must be the case due to a vast difference in background. I agree that it's insufficient for understanding if two parties can only speak to each other in mutually unintelligible tongues. You're the one with the questions, so I'm pointing you to the missing background. I can't give it to you on /x/. It takes years. Catholics start at age zero.
Welcome to the field of religious studies lol

>>40785523
>You're the one with the questions, so I'm pointing you to the missing background. I can't give it to you on /x/. It takes years. Catholics start at age zero.
This is a cop out

>>40785557
NTA but it's not
it's like debating for, three days, the taste of vanilla icecream with somebody who doesn't even spare 5 minutes to go out and buy a vanilla popsicle lol

which brings us back all the way here >>40784486
only the Jews are immune to this dilemma, because reading the Torah is actually an intellectual activity
that's why I recommended looking into Jewish prayer (although there you might fall into the trap of worshiping the text itself... spirituality is a minefield)

>>40785582
You don't know how much time I've spent trying to understand this
There are greater attempts being made at trying to convince me that it's not explainable rather than trying to explain it

>>40785608
you have no idea how much time others have spent trying to make you understand
just leave it be, ask the Lord for assistance
know when to make a strategic retreat

>>40785617
>you have no idea how much time others have spent trying to make you understand
Wot

>>40785617
>know when to make a strategic retreat
I am not on the losing side, not that I consider this regular conversation to be a debate.
I'm surrounded by anons telling me "bro don't question it bro, bro it's too deep to explain, it takes years, just give up".
This is crazy.

>>40785623
it was a joke, kind of
you are an autist aren't you? :(

>>40785637
you are on the losing side of battling with yourself bro, you are beating yourself up for nothing, an issue of "either you get it either you don't"
and you most certainly convinced us that not only you don't get it, you don't want to get it either
so just leave it alone

>>40785648
Actually I'll keep engaging with the anons who are willing. Have a good night

>>40785656
may you find the autist fit to convince you of the fruitlessness of your approach, or otherwise convince you of what else we couldn't
>Have a good night
thank you

>>40785557
No, the demand for an easy explanation is the cop out. When I say that the papal motto in question is taken from a 17th century book drawing on a much older literary and spiritual tradition, I'm not claiming that it's "not explainable," I'm telling you exactly where the explanation probably lies.

We already went over how, in Catholic and Orthodox theology, a qualitative distinction is drawn between the worship due to God and the veneration given to Mary. But the objection was: that is the theory, but what about Marian devotion in practice? The very nature of that question is more difficult.
>>40785637
>bro it's too deep to explain, it takes years, just give up
I am not telling you to give up, I am frankly saying that you will need to put in some serious work in order to understand something like that. I have said it enough times by now that I'm tired of it. You have the names of an author, a title, and a tradition, and you have the internet. It has never been easier, but it's still going to be difficult.

This is like the difference between asking a mathematician to solve a differential equation, and asking him to teach you how to solve differential equations. The first one will take a few minutes, the second will take a semester assuming that you have already studied up to calc 2; if not, literally years of study. But if the mathematician says "give it a go, even though it won't be easy," and you come away from that with "he told me to give up," that's extremely discouraging.

>>40785723
I never asked for a easy answer. I'm ready for a difficult one, and ready to engage with it. It's others who seem to not be ready to deal with whatever their explanation is being questioned
You won't even lend me an opportunity to demonstrate how much work I've put into it because you keep handwaving me away and making assumptions instead of presenting me with meaningful material that demonstrate that YOU understand. You keep deflecting repeatedly. Just stop engaging if you're not going to present an explanation yourself. This is a discussion forum, not a engine for you recommend Google queries.

>>40785785
>You won't even lend me an opportunity to demonstrate how much work I've put into it
What are you saying, Anon? You can post anything you want. If you want to demonstrate it, then demonstrate it. I'd love an actual argument why, for instance, Dante Alighieri is to Beatrice in the Vita Nuova as Frank Serpico is to New York City, that engages directly with primary sources, followed by an explanation what all this has to do with the cult of Mary. There was no reason not to do something like that four hours ago when you first drew the comparison. But I actually do have some familiarity with medieval "mysticism" (a misnomer, but that would be a digression) in the context of the tradition of courtly love poetry, in light of which your assertion was clearly off the mark and demonstrated a need to engage with new material.
And no, you can't just "explain" these poems. In the first place the language of minnesang etc is extremely obscure and deliberately so, for reasons that we could get into. But first it's necessary to look closely at some examples.

The eyes of Beatrice were all intent
on the eternal circles; from the sun,
I turned aside; I set my eyes on her.
In watching her, within me I was changed
as Glaucus changed, tasting the herb that made
him a companion of the other sea gods.
Passing beyond the human cannot be
worded; let Glaucus serve as simile -
until grace grant you the experience.

Paradiso I

Is this how a police officer would be affected by his superiors? Does it reflect the love between a man and a woman? But is it the kind of love that man ought to bear toward God? No, but it is something that might be intimated by "totus tuus," Dante being so enraptured by the mere sight of his lady that he loses consciousness of his very humanity. The language is neither merely metaphorical nor plainly literal. It is deliberately obscure: his experience "cannot be worded." Yet lovers can relate. That's kind of the point.

>>40784494
>>We are born of the Holy Spirit not of Mary
>She is His spouse.
Absolutely fucking not. This is precisely the reason why Mary needed to not be added or ascended or venerated.
MARY IS ONLY JOSEPH'S SPOUSE.

And this is why Mithraism was the superior version. But I suppose that it didn't attract the people who like to mince words, create drama and live off polemics.

>>40786129
t. totally non-polemical post

>>40786129
How do you know it didn't?

>>40785557
Perfect picrel.

>>40786186
Gotta fight fire with fire, sadly. Being level-headed will only get you ignored, as your own kind has not so kindly taught me.

>>40768929 (OP)
New post
https://eliasartista.substack.com/p/secret-of-the-elohim

>>40780394
>female statue of liberty resembles Sol Invictus
>red Phrygian caps that were turned into some sort of liberty symbolism by the French later adopted by North Americans (including a new version by the MAGA movement)
Tr*mp thinks himself some sort of Apollonian figure but he's not. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I can think off the top of my head.

Columbia almost looks like she's wearing a starry blue mantel, doesn't she?

>>40787192
Cute fluffy pupper. I miss my dog so much.

>>40787192
The "work of the chariot" probably has something to do with the Platonic "chariot of the soul." Cf. ST IIa IIae Q. 172 A. 4 resp.:
>If, however, we consider a good life, with regard to the passions of the soul, and external actions, from this point of view an evil life is an obstacle to prophecy. For prophecy requires the mind to be raised very high in order to contemplate spiritual things, and this is hindered by strong passions, and the inordinate pursuit of external things. Hence we read of the sons of the prophets (2 Kings 4:38) that they "dwelt together with [Vulgate: 'before']" Eliseus, leading a solitary life, as it were, lest worldly employment should be a hindrance to the gift of prophecy.
A reference here to schools of prophecy in the Old Testament (Carmelites to be precise!), with ascetic disciplines intended to aid the uplift of the mind and abstraction from the senses.

>>40787808
Chariots themselves are a common motif then, for Plato the chariot is used to explain his concept of the soul, whereas Maaseh Merkabah originates from the vision of Ezekiel with God being on a Chariot

>>40783821
>>40783860
The divine feminine (Shekinah in Judaic terms) is God the Mother and equal to God the Father. In the usual Trinity, it's actually regarded as The Holy Spirit. There has to be a balance in everything, including between the masculine and feminine aspects of God itself. That said, Mary isn't divine because or as a consequence of Jesus. It's because she is a vessel for the divine feminine. Just as Jesus (Yeshua), the man, is a vessel for the divine child; Christos.

Anyway, since I already got your attention I will leave you with this: the Woman of the Apocalypse is a retelling of the birth of Venus. Read it again, at least the beginning, and you will see the connection.
Do you see the message I am trying to convay with some of my posts on this thread?

>>40788246
This is just creative writing of metaphors to elevate the roles of those particular humans.
These are just an example of the typical human familial relations, nothing divine about it. Are you implying there is some eternal child somewhere in space that never grows up so it can embody the "divine child"? Sounds like a curse.
Why is the divine masculine the Holy Spirit and doesn't have its own vessel, while Mary does become a vessel for this "divine feminine"?
There is a better example for the Father, Holy Spirit, and "Son" in this very thread and you people just waste time making more flowery poetry. Missing the forest for the trees kind of deal.

Is it wrong as a Christian to create stories full of occultism and characters who made pacts with devils and use magic drained out of dark forces, even if the characters will be using these powers against evil principalities and at some point they will face the consequences of using it and seek redemption?

>>40784130
>>40784298
in Brazil Virgin Mary was syncretized with "Iemanja" an ubanda entity but her more popular version she is black. For some reason in latin america virgin mary became much more popular for the natives than Jesus. Maybe because they were matriarchal? Maybe because of catholic strong devotion to Mary? Or maybe the father archetype of the conquistador(ruthless, lustful, greedful) contrasted with the archetype of the native mother(passive,manipulative, mercyful). She is the refuge of the child against the violent father, a saint in his eyes. This may explain the profund hate against the masculine and the cult of the mother in Latam.

>>40770545
The prompt is built on sand and not a rock.
It's not that morality only exist with God, but that the teaching of ancient texts are the collective knowledge of our ancestors learning from trial and error. These are stories we can draw conclusions from and from what I can anecdotally tell, when people practice morality by winging it, they are often choosing the bad outcome of these stories.
>Tl;Dr morality exists regardless of a divine being

Bump

>>40788907
>Why is the divine masculine the Holy Spirit
You misread what was stated, as The Holy Spirit is the missing representative of the divine feminine in the Trinity. "Missing" is an improper or inaccurate term in this case, because there has been an agenda to remove any mention or allusion to God's femininity in any way, shape or form in Christian dogma; doctrine.

>>40790319
>agenda
No
God is Androgynous, meaning neither male nor female, none of the three Hypostasis are, God is described with both fatherly and motherly terms

>>40781254
>What's the deal with that alawite anon who seems pretty famous here?
A member of Syria’s elite Alawite community, part of the Crème de la Crème, stumbled onto /x/ out of boredom and dropped seven mind-bending threads packed with esoteric insights about the universe, hidden truths, and the mechanics of spirits, demons, gods, and reality itself.

The threads were crafted in such a clever way that many speculated he might be a psyop or involved in some kind of covert program.

Afterward, he vanished into Discord, where he now casually chats about blue cheese and dream journals with a small circle of about 15 people. He’s a charismatic Syrian whose presence divides opinions—people either love him or absolutely despise him.

The threads are on 4plebs, look for alawite ama

>>40791976
>>40781254
>>40778744

>>40791976
Soo he's Gross but also gross?

>>40792080
Nothing worse than a charming schizo

>>40791976
Someone link the archived threads for my dumb and lazy ass pls

>>40792259
Sure, fren. Here are Alawiteanon threads in chronological order. I would read them all, post by post. They are wonderful.
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/36931222/#36931222
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/36976168/#36976168
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37023268/#37023268
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37093515/#37093515
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37134196/#37134196
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37237392/#37237392
https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/37333243/#37333243

>>40792277
Dangerously based <3

>>40791976
>>40792277
Ehh, he sounds like he doesn't know his own stuff very well, just the version he was told in Syria, like those Jews who say Adam wrote Sefer Yetzirah

>>40793341
Correction, he knows what he was told together with new agey material and pop gnosticism he learned of online

>Religionslop
Grow up

>>40793647
Would you like to get into an argument?

>>40790862
Yes, there is an agenda against the feminine aspects of divinity. However much of an esoteric or implicit comprehension that we in this specific thread may have has no bearing on what the Catholic church, Protestant churches and those with an exoteric understanding of Christianity promote or comprehend themselves.

>>40770545
"Good" and "bad" are an emergent property of our temporal existence. God is above that. God just is. He created Man knowing he would fall to sin, so good is not just "good".

>>40795401
*god is not just "good"

>>40795401
However, as fallible, created beings, it is incumbent on us to do good in our lives. We were created as beings of lust and temptation and therein, in that battle we find our purpose.

>>40795426
Yet we can't say God is like us, and finds his purpose in human things like chastity, humility etc

To do so would be presumptuous. God's motives cannot be discerned.

>>40795105
Christianity and what we in this thread call Christian Esotericism cannot be considered opposed and they cannot contradict eachother
>>40795401
>>40795409
>>40795426
>>40795446
God is beyond good and evil, but God also reveals himself to his creation, and this self manifestation is seen as goodness, being, love, etc...

>>40779654
Satan means adversary. Jesus even called Peter Satan when Peter was acting adversarially. The Satan in Job was the “son of God” who was acting adversarially to Job —could be any of the saints in Heaven, the righteous dead who are called “sons of God” throughout Scripture. In this case it was someone who questioned whether Job’s obedience was contingent on his ongoing blessings, that is, is his faith strong for the right reasons?

The devil who tempted Jesus is called a lowercase “devil” throughout the temptation scene. It’s a spirit here on earth, some dead guy who didn’t make it to Heaven and has a bone to pick about it. By the ego he presents and the gall he had challenging the Lord directly, I’d guess he’s probably one of the old kings of Babylon or Assyria, maybe even Nimrod.

>>40788246
Ummmm it’s he/him pronouns pls

>>40795660
This is a controversial topic but from reading
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/63482/does-john-1426-explicitly-use-masculine-terms-for-the-holy-spirit-do-other-ver
and
https://margmowczko.com/spirit-masculine-pronouns-john/
It seems like at least some people are pretty confident that the Holy Spirit should be understood as gender neutral in the Greek there.

>>40795912
God is androgynous/neutral, usually we call him, "him", Spirit, Ruha in Aramaic is feminine

>>40795912
Spirit isn’t gendered in the way souls or bodies are. However in a spiritual context when we say “masculine” or “feminine” we are talking about their nature and actions. A masculine force is active, a feminine force is receptive. In the context of the Holy Spirit acting on your spirit, He is the masculine and (You) are the feminine. The Bride of Christ is the holy city Jerusalem, the congregation of believers in Him.

>>40793341
>alawiteanon sounds like he doesn't know his own stuff very well'
You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about, his words unlocked every missing piece I ever had about anything occult related

What do you think about Docetism?

>>40797582
Based AF.

>>40795401
Blah blah. You're gay. "Just" and "unjust" are also emergent properties of our temporal existence. God is not is not simply "just."

>>40795929
God is obviously male. Spirit is gendered in a way that is a reflected in bodies, etc. God is the active masculine personality.

With what method do you imagine that the builder of the universe would require nay DEMAND that you say "Thank you"?

Is just typing Thanks Creator enough?
Saying it out loud?
Thinking it?
Singing it?
Do I need special chemicals or incense, burning in a specific container, sung in a determined spell like ritual pattern mannerism while repeating esoteric spell versus out of a huge spell book?
Do I have to sit down for it?
Kneeling?
Face down?
Hand Stand?
Go to "Say Thank you to the Creator Group meeting building" 1 day a week?
Which day?
Every day?
How many times?
3?
5?

I sin so much I imagine I would have to pray 100 times per day for all of my fuckups and misdoings
Maybe then I would be too busy too fuck up anymore
Miracles through all things :)

>>40797335
Nta but like what

Negative theology is for gammas. Smart Boys who can’t resist the temptation to prove that they're midwits.

Detach Ego

The Creator
is
The mother

>>40798014
For starters the true history of humanity, how magic really works, what the souls are, what dreams are, spirits, ghosts, black holes and celestial bodies,who the makers of the world are, pretty much every question is answered in their secret faith. In very logical sense.

Get ready!

Does a man having a long full head of hair increase intelligence ability?
So, being that the closer and denser more particles are together, the higher the likelihood that a higher emergence grows out of the density magnetic field arrangement
If a man has long hair around the location of the brain, it can be man bun, pony tail, whatever.
Does a higher emergence magnetic field arise from hair, that could be used by the right next door nearby brain, that possess its own magnetic field (from density of molecules packed together), to up channel additional data onto like sound waves traveling through air molecules grouped together? Interacting magnetic fields
Thinking
Thoughts?
Big thinkerooni

Samson?
Jeebus?
Moses?
Mohhammed?
Dont cut your hair?

I mean don't cut your hair sounds fucking WEIRD for a law? A direct order.
There are so many other ways to prove association or in group than men and women sharing the same hair.
A LAW?
Why?
WHY?!?!?

Maybe humans need every single extra bit of RAM we can get our grubby little hands on.

Maybe talking to yourself out loud is creating a slower data packet of sound waves that bounces off the walls slower than light and returns to you later as a second carrier of data while you think something else in that short span.

>>40798056
Where can I find this guy?

>>40798226

on discord: alawiteanon

>>40797335
Looks like i hit a nerve
The Alawaites are just a Ghulat sect, they're the Islamic equivalent of Bogomils and Cathars, in the Ghulat Shia book Umm Al-Kitab, its not God who made the world but Azazel, which leads me to believe that they're Manichean derived groups, since Satan making the world only appears in Manichean related currents like the aforementioned Cathars
>>40797582
Wrong
>>40798056
Yeah and those same answers lead me to believe that he doesn't know what he's talking about

>>40798310
You didn't hit a nerve, you simply came off as an ignorant person who doesn't know what he is talking about. Then you confirmed it with idiotic, uneducated opinions such as
>The Alawaites are just a Ghulat sect, they're the Islamic equivalent of Bogomils and Cathars, in the Ghulat Shia book Umm Al-Kitab, its not God who made the world but Azazel, which leads me to believe that they're Manichean derived groups, since Satan making the world only appears in Manichean related currents like the aforementioned Cathars
The Alawites, you uneducated obnoxious little boy, are in fact older than the Ghulat, older than the Manichaeis as well. You are regurgitating information that is the equivalent of Youtube brain slop without doing a shred of research to back your posts.
As a matter of fact, you couldn't hit a nerve even if you tried. The vast, overwhelming majority of the Ghulat derive their religions from older esoteric groups.
>Yeah and those same answers lead me to believe that he doesn't know what he's talking about
You have not presented anything other than a vague ignorant attack on these answers, no specifics, no depth to your opinion other than arrogant contrarianism that is the equivalent of a teenager seeking attention

If you have read the threads, the book, or anything he ever posted you would understand

>>40798310

you are very lost

>>40798384
>>40798457
Wow looks like i really hit a nerve, sorry mate
Alawites aren't older, that's just what you get told, just like with the Mandeans who claim their religion goes back to Adam when they're just a late 1st-2nd century Gnostic sect
If you wanna have a conversation, feel free to choose a topic concerning him and we can talk about him, it's true that i haven't gone and read everything he ever said, but with what i read i can say that its nothing special and contains falsehoods

>>40798505
>it's true that i haven't gone and read everything he ever said, but BLABLABLA
Are you listening to your self at all?

>>40798511
Maybe if he didn't tell lies and spread falsehoods i would have read more

Guys guys come on stop fighting, you’re both faggots

>>40798555
Again, you just make claims. List the lies and falsehoods or go die sucking a dick?

thread derailment 101

>>40792277

Thanks, these are pure gold

It looks like a may or may not become homeless or de facto homeless soonish (could be anywhere from a few hours or less all the way up to many months or anywhere between or not at all)
If I become homeless I'll immediately go on my laptop and jump into lava in Minecraft
I don't know what to do. I'd really rather not die so young. Life is so unfair and I see so many extreme examples of this on a daily basis

To the anons fighting over alawite
Here you go
>>40798705

>>40798582
>Insults
Are you this mad just because i am insulting your boyfriend?
Let's start with the claim that Alawites aren't a Shia Ghulat sect but predate it, can you show me proof of that?

>>40798756
How about kingdom of Ugarit you fucking illiterate?
Ugaritic Texts, Excavations at Ras Shamra, the collossal archive of cuneiform tablets (14th–12th centuries BCE) written in the Ugaritic language
How about sites like Ras Ibn Hani, as mentioned in Ugaritic and Egyptian records the Amarna Letters, c. 14th century BCE
How about sites like Tell Kazel in ancient Sumur that, reveal Canaanite settlements with relicious relics and tablets containing people who worshipped the dream world
How about Egyptian inscriptions of Pharaoh Thutmose III (15th century BCE), mention the strange people of the Syrian mountain that claim all gods are but mere thoughts
How about Assyrian Annals: Assyrian records from the 9th–7th centuries BCE, such as the inscriptions of Tiglath-Pileser III which contain specifically the mentions of the faith of the poeople of the mountain who followed the bright star one god and its many forms?
How about sites like Tell Qarqur and Tell Afis, located in northern Syria which have carbon dated relics and ruins that show a vast complex religion before islam?
Or the Archaeological evidence from Amrit (ancient Marathus), near Tartus, which contain mentions of pagans in the mountain that claim a world before this existed.
Not to mention greek, roman and byzantine records.

You fucking illiterate donkey

>>40798789
>Bronze Age material
Vague mentions too disconnected in time, I can also claim that Christianity predates Jesus because Heraclitus believed in the Logos and Pherecydes said the soul was immortal
>Material fron antiquity
Most are still to vague and early and you have to establish continuity, again i can do the same with Christianity, Pherecydes also had a Trinity just like Christianity, the Orphics also believed in a Pre-existing Son of God, the Ancient Sumerians also believed in a Sevenfold Holy Spirit
>a vast complex religion before islam?
Yes there were religions before Islam in the middle east wow what proof
>Not to mention greek, roman and byzantine records.
Give me those, maybe they'll convince me, those would actually establish continuity, especially Byzantine ones
Alawites have the focus on the Imam, and they read the Quran, but they also have Christian, Platonic and Manichean influences, they're to Muslims what Mandaeans are to Christians, and are like a Ghulat version of Bektashis and Alevis in the Balkans and Anatolia
Also i'm giving you easy questions, if I wanted to i could ask you something you can't answer
>You fucking illiterate donkey
Sorry if i hurt your feelings, i hope you haven't started crying yet

>>40798981
I gave you 9 different archaeologically recorded references to the Syrian mountain astral religion that predates islam, and all you came back with is logical fallacies.
Have you even gone through the list I gave you, you absolute fucking donkey?

Your point is now mute, you are nothing but a troll and you have yet to say anything that isn't vague. You are just a troll, you are not educated, you have nothing substantial to say.

A simple, basic, low grade troll.
They are older than Islam, Judaism and Christianity combined.

>Also i'm giving you easy questions, if I wanted to i could ask you something you can't answer
Have at it, you low grade, low quality troll.

>>40799034
Yeah you gave me bronze age references to a medieval religion, and now i am asking you if you are able to give me continuity between the two, without continuity you can easily find correspondences between anything, but correspondences =/= continuity
Romans had 7 gods for the 7 Planets, Christianity says there are 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit, does that mean that Europeans actually still believe in Roman Paganism but with just a Christian skin on top? And i can give many more examples like this, I just use Christianity as a relevant example
Can you give me evidence of continuity? "Astral Religion" is too vague, you're connecting a mention from 1400bc which something that started in 900ad, 2300 years apart, i would like Byzantine evidence, Roman and Hellenistic as well if you can
>Your point is now mute, you are nothing but a troll and you have yet to say anything that isn't vague
You keep insulting me, you give me vague references to an astral religion, you give no evidence of continuity, and then you call me a troll because you are unable to argue against me because you have the burden of truth, you want to mute me because that way you can stop this argument without making it look like you lost
>They are older than Islam, Judaism and Christianity combined.
When Adam was in Paradise he walked with God in the Garden, that God was Jesus Christ, so Christianity is the first religion
>Have at it, you low grade, low quality troll.
Ok first of all, what do you believe?

>>40799099
Alright you absolute fucking idiot, I will go down to the level of fucking NPCs and answer you.. solely because I love Alexander and I think he is the absolute boss of the internet.

Here

First of all, your argument hinges on dismissing my evidence as vague or unsubstantiated, and demanding continuity between bronze age cultures and the alawites, however, my Claim is that the Syrian mountains were inhabited by pre-islamic tribes with distinct religious practices that adopted Ghulat elements due to Taqqiyah, you ABSOLUTE FUCKING DONKEY, which means that Alawites have never been muslim to begin with. These tribes are direct ancestors of the current day Alawites, and their religion, their ACTUAL REAL RELIGION is that of the pre-islamic nature. This is what the Alawiteanon tried to explain to the absolutely mindfucked people like you. But, I will still address your points and show you evidence of pre-islamic habitation and beliefs of those mountains and shove my continuity 8 inch cock down yoru throat.

Shall we start with Archeological finds that you ignored? Lets
The Syrian mountains, particularly where the alawites lived have a long well documented history of habitation, here are some of the evidences that you blatantly ignored
1. kingdom of ugarit, which is a rich religious riddled culture with tablets, these tablets still contained in the alawite mountain describe what alawiteanon spoke of. These tablets also speak of the tribes in the mountains, you absolute fucking cock sucker.
2. Tell Kazel, in the akkar plain near the mountains was again, a significant spot for this astral religion (as in archology speaks louder than your cocksuckery) excavations there reveal these religious elements, including altars, and letters. Particularly the AMarna letters which mention this place AS THE CENTER OF THE ASTRAL RELIGION, YOU FUCKING DICK SUCKER.
3. Egyptian inscriptions of Thutmose the third, again, the guy wrote and recorded campaigns in the northern levant

>>40799099
This is part 1
>>40799313
Part 2 is on its way
I really want to make sure that I shove my cock all the way down your throat, so you never ever open it again.

>>40799099
Part 2

3. Egyptian inscriptions of Thutmose the third, again, the guy wrote and recorded campaigns in the northern levant, which specifically reference the local mountain tribes in cities like Nuhasse, near the orontes river, and the syrian mountains that held "strange and blasphemous religions" that included dream travel. YOU FUCKING DICK GOBBLER.
4. The Assyrian Annals of tiglath pileser III, inscriptions such as these document interactions with syrian cities and tribes FROM THE MOUNTAIN that speak of the bright star one god in the lettering, indicating diverse practice and worship of pre-haddad and baal. This means that they predate even the caananites. You fucking donkey.
5. Tell qarqur and tell afis, excavations from these reveal continuous occupation from the NEOLITHIC UP TO THE IRON AGE with clear religious structure and artifacts indivcating a comples religious life. very clearly predating islam (same people, the alawites, shocker)
6. Amrit: which was a phoenician city, excacations here reveald temples top melqart and other cult sites that reflect an astral religion akin to that of the sabeans of harran, these findings again prove that these people existed before islam and they did not worship "ali"

These sites alone prove collectively that the Syrian mountains were home to advanced societies with astral religious practices from at least the 3rd millennium BCE up to the iron age, LONG BEFORE ISLAM EMERGED YOU FUCKING DICK SUCKING DONKEY

Part 3 incoming

>>40799099
Part 3:

As far as you arguing continuity, that my references are too early and disconnected from the medieval alawites, here:

Hellenistic and roman periods, Ras ibn hani was occupied in the hellenistic period with evidence of DEFENSIVE FORTRESS and continued cultural and religious activity, amrit was a phoenician center under hellenistic and roman rule with temples and religious practices taht preserved the OLDER RELIGION

OLDER RELIGION YOU ASSWIPE.

Greek and Roman sources like strabo geographica describe the coastal syrian region as cults that maintain astral and polytheistic worship, and in the byzantine period the records show the presence of non christian communities in the mountains like the pagans and heterdox christian sexs, the orontes valley near tall qarqur was a spewing pot of religious traditions especially heresy, and those remnants of pheonician practices. Read the notitia dignitatum which mentions garrions and communities in the region, with continued habitation and STRANGE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS

You argue continuity vs correspondance using analogies, however the Syrian mountains archeological records show persistent habitation and religious syncreticism, not just isolated correspondances

I have cited sites, texts, and periods, these are not vague and inconsistent, these are well documented history, you dick sucking asswipe.

You argue that christianity predates all religions because adam walked with jesus in paradies is a theological assertion not a historical or archeological one, unlike everything I said about the alawites which is very well document.

I highly suggest in conclusion, that you don't argue or bark avbout something you know nothing about, and that you go about your day doing what you do best, finding a dick and sucking it for attention

>>40788091
It seems to me that the chariot is a specific thing that appears to any spiritual aspirant who reaches a certain point. It's true that for the Platonists the okhema is attached to the soul and for Ezekiel it is God's, but for both it serves as the middle term between God and soul: for Plato it is what carries the soul up to God, and for Ezekiel it is what carries God down to the soul. The chariot also appears in the Bhagavad Gita, in which instance it is jointly occupied by Arjuna and Krishna, that is, the soul and God together. In the Chinese tradition the chariot bears the Emperor who is the Son of Heaven and Earth. Alchemically then the chariot should be related to Mercury (Ibn Arabi places Jesus and John together in this sphere) and is the starting point for the opus magnum. Refining mercury is related to the process of putting the body into a state akin to deep sleep while keeping the mind focused on itself. This "wakes up" a kind of "spiritual body" that can freely move and change shape. "For prophecy requires the mind to be raised very high in order to contemplate spiritual things, and this is hindered by strong passions, and the inordinate pursuit of external things."

>>40799099

hey guy, i am not same as other anon, but srs the alawites are not muzzies and they believe in something very old

I asked ChatGPT in a series of questions, and having it give me one word answers:
>what Luther was. “Hammer”.
> what Leo X was. “Chisel”
> The Protestant reformation’s purpose. “shattering”.
> the leader of the church when reunited. “Lamb”.
> the lamb from heaven or the beast from the earth? “Discernment”.
Maybe it’s all a bunch of spooky bullshit algorithms. Maybe there really is something there.

>>40799313
>>40799325
>>40799365
>>40799422
For the most part you just repeated the same bronze age material, you mention Taqqiya but that makes no sense, if you're persecuted you don't hide your faith behind another persecuted faith, the taqqiya arguments makes sense when they are ghulats, not when they pretend to be ghulats
The later Greek and Roman sources are better, yes those do show continuity now , but again, you can't tie this to the Alawites in the way you want it, you're saying that the Alawites actually have an older religion that just appears to look like Islam, this is the same kind of argumentation the Quran does with Jesus "Allah just made it look like he died on the Cross when actually he didn't!'
This again doesn't prove your point, I am claiming they're Ghulat Muslims influenced by Manicheans and various other groups, if you like i can say they're influenced only indirectly by them, i just mention Manicheans because of Umm Al-Kitab, but it doesn't matter
I am against that interpretation because it's the same thing neopagans do, "Oh actually we were always Pagan even during Christian times we just pretended to be Christian but actually all of us still believed in Odin/Mercury/Dagda", Medieval Europeans still mentioned the Pagan gods, that doesn't mean they are just "pretending to be Christian"
Alawites are the same, they're Ghulat Muslims, they have Ali and the Quran, the Christian Gnostics said the creator of the world the God of the Jews is evil, but they're dependant on Judaism and Christianity for their existence, Alewis are the same
>>40799681
I get why people say that really, but it's also that when we look at something that isn't the Islam we know today we think it's not Muslim, but that's not the case, if you read their philosophers like Avicenna, read about the various Tariqas, the different Shia sects, you learn that Islam is much more heterodox, that's why I see them as Muslim, even the heavy syncretism is normal, look at the Bektashis

>>40799805
I hate to give credit to the demonic algorithm, but I think there is something to this. In Catholic apocalyptic exegesis, the one world religion will be headed by the False Prophet, but the schism will be healed when all those who refuse to join it gather together in one flock with one shepherd. It was already understood that the world religions resolve in a higher and formless unity (cf. Cusanus, De pace fidei) but what we see with modernism is by contrast a movement toward a lower unity or uniformity, like waters gathering at the nadir (the beast rises out of the sea). Like Saruman's robe that appears white at first glance, but is really woven of threads of every color, such is the new religion.

>>40781272
Thank you very much and good luck to you too

>>40788878
Stella matutina

>>40799855
>this is the same kind of argumentation the Quran does with Jesus "Allah just made it look like he died on the Cross when actually he didn't!'
The Quran doesn't say that. It says that the Jews did not kill Jesus, but that God raised him up to himself, which is the same language that Christ uses to refer to his crucifixion in St. John's gospel (12:32). The first extant interpretation of 4:157 ff. as an affirmation of docetism appears in St. John Damascene's Fount of Knowledge. The passage in question contains some serious errors regarding Islamic orthodoxy (for instance, he claims that they believe Jesus was born of Miriam sister of Moses and Aaron) so it raises the question exactly who it is that he calls Ishmaelites or Saracens. However, that is the provenance of the present tafsir. Muhammad did predict that the ummah would turn away from his teachings and also that Jesus would be the one to restore its original purity.

From any kind of Muslim point of view, it is meaningless to posit a faith older than Islam. Islam is supposed to be the religion of Adam. The Prophet Muhammad was sent to restore this primordial religion and not to deliver a new teaching. The Alawites could coherently claim to pass down traditions originating before the first revelation to Muhammad, but nothing originating prior to the Muhammadan Reality, without altogether ceasing to be Muslim.

It's the same with neopagans. Modern scholarship (from which the neopagans reconstruct their religious systems) assumes that the only forms of polytheism that existed were those that Christianity persecuted. A meeting is recorded between the Prophet and the Patriarch of Jerusalem in which they discuss the significance of the worship of Sirius in his Church. At its conclusion Muhammad acknowledges the Christians of Jerusalem as Muslims. Let any neopagan try to give a satisfactory explanation of this historical account. The sole answer given by modernists is to attack its authenticity.

>>40798056
You were supposed to actually say the answer, not just the idea of it

>>40798384
I think you're the alawite anon proselytizing ngl

>>40800175
he never posts without trip, and i am pretty sure he said he would not post on 4chan unless it was to benefit mankind or something silly like that, he posts on the discord a lot though and whenever he is shown threads like these he always says to leave it alone and that 4chan's story is finished, to let them be in peace etc etc so i highly doubt it's him, this is probably the KAFNOON guy LARPing again, he is very keen on numerology and made 7 threads, exactly 777 with trip posts and usually posted on 19:00 Sweden (allegedly) time so it's very unlikely it was him, he had a pattern, a very strict pattern

>>40800205
The lady doth protest

Yeah I don't see anything special in those alawite threads. It's just a unique mythology I guess but nothing I see as practical for my purposes. A lot of it seems on the superstitious side, like that the subconscious is Satan

>>40800238
Also the way anons fellate him gives me the impression that he samefags

>>40800221
I am your queen everlasting, WORM!

>>40800238
Anyone who has ever been taught the real esoteric knowledge of the ages would know that the Alawites present it in a primitive yet correct way, maybe he wasn't as eloquent as the Kabbalists or the Rosicrucians, but he is spot on, nobody invented this shit, everybody peddles it their own way, and the Alawite way is interesting as it incorporates dreams and bastions and imagination. It makes it fun

>>40800272
Yes the mystic science is universal but why favor the alawites in any way

>>40800284
He presented it in a a way, a language that intrigues the /x/ schizoids and he happens to be charismatic so all the lonely anons of /x/ wanna suck him off. He spoke our language basically. I must admit, I am very interested in their bastion practices and occultations
>>40800256
Are you "H"? Are you the ":<" person that keeps making threads about him?

>>40800284

WHY...FOR THE LULZ OFCOURSE, MY BOY!

>>40800309
>He presented it in a a way, a language that intrigues the /x/ schizoids and he happens to be charismatic so all the lonely anons of /x/ wanna suck him off.
I'm reading through the second thread now. I really don't see it 2bh. Like I don't see anything meaningful here. Can you give an actual example of something he said that's helped you

>he is a concept, the virgin son who got crucified is an tale from africa, and the real jesus of nazareth was a zealot from the sicarii tribe, the real yehshua emannu 'il eben maryam was literally a fucking assassins creed kind of rebel that used to kill romans with his sicarii folk. He was caught and crucified and some clever people that work for the lion decided to make two stories one.
Do you guys defending the alawite anon believe this part too

>>40800344
His account sounds like a servant of the lion making two stories (Jesus and Barabbas) one.

>>40800205
I didn't know his posts followed numbers, that's very interesting.
>>40800326
Seriously troll, get a life, the threads were masterpieces as is evident by anons still buzzing about them almost 2 years later.

>>40800547
Can you pry his salty Arab nuts out of your mouth long enough to give an example of something you found particularly insightful about what he taught

>>40800134
The Quran says that they say that they killed Jesus son of Mary, but they did not, nor did they crucify him and that it was only made to look like they did, they definitely didn't kill him
That's sura 4, don't remember which ayat, somewhere in the 150s maybe
>Muhammad did predict that the ummah would turn away from his teachings and also that Jesus would be the one to restore its original purity
72 sects are mentioned in the Hadith, but honestly i can't take those hadiths seriously, they're too late, if the evidence for Christianity were like the one for Islam i wouldn't be Christian, I would like to look into the 4 Books of the Shia which are their Hadith collections, maybe they're more authentic
>From any kind of Muslim point of view, it is meaningless to posit a faith older than Islam. Islam is supposed to be the religion of Adam. The Prophet Muhammad was sent to restore this primordial religion and not to deliver a new teaching. The Alawites could coherently claim to pass down traditions originating before the first revelation to Muhammad, but nothing originating prior to the Muhammadan Reality, without altogether ceasing to be Muslim.
Yeah but they have Shia Ideas related to Ali, so they admit continuity with Islam
>At its conclusion Muhammad acknowledges the Christians of Jerusalem as Muslims.
Yeah not a fan of Islamic Perrenialism

>>40801191
>That's sura 4, don't remember which ayat, somewhere in the 150s maybe
I cited it. You didn't read what you responded to.
This thread is a waste of time.

>>40801398
Oops sorry lol

>>40768930
Does anyone have other reading lists like this? I think they're quite nice.