Thread 17923852

How does anybody actually believe in the Shroud of Turin? It's some piece of paper that randomly showed up over a millennium after Jesus' death, with no attestation of authenticity or record of its origin. Are Christians so desperate for any shred of hard evidence that THIS will serve as their "proof"?
Besides, if this is the best evidence of Jesus being God, and we haven't had the tools to analyze it properly until recently, is everyone from 0-1354 immediately damned to hell? And are any skeptics from 1354 to the mid-twentieth century also damned to hell because this piece of cloth is the only evidence of God's revelation?

Also, the first time anything was written about it, it was a bulletin from the Catholic Church calling it a scam.

(christcucks putting on their tranny face)
>so, even though I know you are not a STEM major, you cannot scientifically explain why a weird physical phenomenon occurred?
>Guess that means my ancient hebrew storm god exists!

>>17923852 (OP)
The shroud was never really a core part of christian identity; it's a relatively recent thing

>>17923863
they were probably just seething after their demand for a cut of the pilgrim tithes was refused

>>17923877
That's my point: whenever I ask Christians why I should believe Jesus is God they always go to the Shroud.

>>17923852 (OP)
There's a $1M reward to anyone who can replicate its properties (x-ray image, 3D image, exhibits UV fluorescence, etc) using 13'th century tools

Go and prove your claim

Spoiler alert:
It's IMPOSSIBLE
The image does not penetrate past 2microfibers. This is completely impossible to attain even with modern lasers. And it has no burn

>>17923863
The best dinosaur egg ever recovered spent almost 100 years in a museum that thought it was a clay replica.

So what?

>>17923887
What of the millions of people that were skeptics before the shroud? What of the people that were skeptics when they didn't have access to this information?

>>17923896
What about them?
The Shroud is not essential for believing in God.

As miraculous as it was, there's no evidence that it truly is Jesus in the image.

>>17923900
>The Shroud is not essential for believing in God.
Then what's your better proof? And I won't let it slip that you said "believing in God" and not "believing in Jesus", which are two different things.

>>17923902
I am in support of the Shroud being miraculous but I agree with the Church's neutrality towards the idea of it being Jesus or not

Could be an unnamed saint for all we know.

Either way, it is a relic - one of the many signs that God purposely left to lead us to him. Just one of the many others

>>17923852 (OP)
>A millennium after Jesus' death
Jesus was born in 2000?

>>17923909
What are the other ones?

>>17923911
Ask his opponents

>>17923852 (OP)
>How does anybody actually believe in the Shroud of Turin?
Religious people are less intelligent. Less intelligent people are more likely to believe in magic.

>>17923946
What is a woman :^)

Regular reminder that the earliest description of the shroud is in a random church in rural France, where it gets up and hovers on the spot every Friday. How come it doesn't do that now?

>>17923887
>The image does not penetrate past 2microfibers
Citation needed.

>>17923956
>In the points where the image is present, the discoloration affects only two or three fibers on the topmost part of the threads of the cloth.

>>17923852 (OP)
go fuck the goats achmed kek

>>17923962
Citation needed. Also that is SIGNIFICANTLY different to "2 microfibres".

>>17923981
>(3) The image of the body was caused by a superficial, discontinuous, translucent yellow discoloration of the fibers, each measuring just a few μm in diameter [43]. This discoloration is observed only on the uppermost portion of the threads [47]. This “superficiality” property is extremely important. The darkness of the image is determined by the number of yellowed fibers per unit area and not by the yellow tone of the fibers [37,49]. The yellowing is the result of chemically modified cellulose, with structures formed through the processes of dehydration, oxidation, and conjugation [37,49]. In sum, the fibers which form the body image have been degraded more than the fibers which correspond to the non-image areas. This is the mechanism-scenario suggested by the STURP team to explain the formation of the body image. However, other possible mechanisms were not entirely ruled out. For instance, it was noted that the chemical alterations might have resulted from a thermally or photochemically sensitized reaction, and that the possibility of scorching could not be readily dismissed [37].

Calling it fiber or microfiber is synonymous because fibers ARE microscopic
>each measuring just a few μm in diameter

>>17923993
They litterally are not microscopic anon. Why are you bearing false witness to me?

>>17924004
Threads are
Fibers aren't

>>17924022
They litterally are not. How do you think threads are made? Repent your false witness on me.

>>17923981
How fibers can you see in each string?

>>17923887
>facebook grandma copypasta

>>17924048
SAAR!!!

>>17924052
Cope.
Show up or shut it

>>17923852 (OP)
>How does anybody actually believe in the Shroud of Turin?

Because their stupid? They want to believe so badly that they'll see things that aren't there to justify it. It really is that simple and pathetic. Out one side of the mouth theyll disregard science and then the next day they'll quote it as a justification. Goyim are fucking dumb what can I say

>>17924077
>Because their stupid

>>17924057
Prove it has those properties or shut up

>>17924097
Lazy

>>17923872
Underrated post

>>17923852 (OP)
What if this is the face of a god we've never heard of? A god who's not insecure and doesn't demand worship?

>>17924165
Jesus doesn't "demand" worship. He necessitates it *if you want to be saved

A doctor cannot remove your cancer if you will not recognize his superiority and follow his every instruction

No use healing a patient who will just return to his disgusting life after the surgery

>>17924181
Can god forgive without jesus being worshipped?

>>17924181
>Jesus doesn't "demand" worship. He necessitates it *if you want to be saved
looooooool

oh you don't need to worship me teehee you just need to do it if you don't want to fucking die bro

>A doctor cannot remove your cancer if you will not recognize his superiority and follow his every instruction
except the doctor in this situation also gave you the cancer in the first place

>No use healing a patient who will just return to his disgusting life after the surgery
the doctor also controls every variable. such as hardening the heart of the patient or softening it.

fuck off jew worshiper

>>17924184
Better question:
Why on Earth would you refuse?

Jesus is the perfect man. Never made a single sin.

The only reason to refuse him is that you just don't want to let go of your sin

>>17924188
You stepped out of his protection.
You listened to the devil
You got the cancer

If you want it gone, return to his protection, which also necessitates that you follow the rules

People who don't respect the Law also will not be protected by the Law

>>17924189
>Jesus is the perfect man.
Obey me or I'll burn you doesn't sound perfect or holy. It sounds like Kim Jong Un

>Never made a single sin.
He broke the sabbath among other things

>The only reason to refuse him is that you just don't want to let go of your sin
Ah yes everyone who is skeptical of your cult leader must be evil bad guy man. Funny how every cult grifter makes the same claim

>>17924191
>You stepped out of his protection.
Job didn't do this and god still ruined his life lol

Fuck off

You have no idea what you are talking about and just some flying monkey for your abuse cult

>>17924189
So can god forgive you without jesus or not? I won't let you pivot

>>17924194
The other way around

The moment the fruit was eaten, we were already set for death
He came to pay the price so we don't have to.

But it is up to you if you want to return home (where you have to follow his ways) or reject his sacrifice and go where we are meant to.

>>17924199
EVERYONE in the Bible lived holy lives and yet, they still suffered

The Messiah is right there on the Cross

If your definition of suffering is purely flesh, then you are, by definition, a worshipper of the world. Not really welcome in heaven


>>17924202
No. Why would he?

No forgiveness without guilt
No guilt without recognizing your sin against him
And you will not recognize it if you will not worship him

I'm going to sleep

>>17924213
>create the problem he claims to be solving

blatantly jewish lmao

>all this can be fixed if you become my golem slave

of course lol

>>17924213
>EVERYONE in the Bible lived holy lives and yet, they still suffered

your jewgod fails his covenant word. it's explicit with job. but obvious everywhere else

>why should you be trusted with a lot if you cannot be trusted with a little?

>>17924213
>No forgiveness without guilt
>No guilt without recognizing your sin against him
>And you will not recognize it if you will not worship him

This is sick filth to anyone who is healthy

>yes goy live your life groveling in constant fear, guilt and shame

kys jew shill

>>17924181
But doctors aren't omnipotent beings that invented cancer and allowed it to exist with foreknowledge of everyone who would get cancer and turn down treatment.
Reconcile God's omniscience with free will. Hint: you can't. Omniscience implies predestination, and what kind of omnibenevolent being would punish people for the sins he knew they would commit before the universe even existed?
Will you accept Christ and be saved or turn your back on him? God has always known the answer to this question, but he'll damn you anyway.
How exactly does salvation work anyway? When Jesus died on the cross, was a spell cast on people's souls that allowed them to be saved? I already know that Christians believe in blood alchemy as a means of communing with their lord, so do sin and salvation work the same way?
And it's not like Jesus saved you. He just opened a means for you to be saved by him. Why did his death not absolve the whole world of original sin? It existed before Christ, and it kept on existing. The only difference is that you're given a way out in exchange for subservience. Sounds like extortion.

>>17924234
>>17924243
>>17924244
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost.

>>17923852 (OP)
>It's some piece of paper
Um ackshully it's linen, not paper

Well, looks like I just effortlessly unravelled your whole argument by finding a small inaccuracy in an irrelevant part of your post, which makes the default position (that the Shroud is a holy artifact of God) automatically true, looks like Christ wins again!

>>17924274
>blah blah jew fairytales

Aryan woman: "Jesus, please help!! My daughter has a demon!! Please cast it out of her!!"

*The woman proceeds to worship Jesus.*

Jesus: "Oy vey, another goyim shiksa. Ok disciples, let me handle this."

*Jesus clears his throat*

Jesus: "Ok so my blessings are like bread, right?"

Aryan woman: "Yes Lord, that's right!"

Jesus: "Ok yeah, and you wouldn't give your kid's bread to a dog, right?"

Aryan woman: "Uhh, L-Lord, what are you trying to say?"

Jesus: "Hold on lemme finish! So basically you wouldn't give bread to a dog right?"

Aryan woman: "I...no Lord. I wouldn't."

Jesus: "Ok so there you go."

Aryan woman: "B-but....But Jesus....Even dogs...*sniff* Even dogs eat the children's crumbs from under the table when they lick the floor like dumb animals."

Jesus: "Woah...wtf...lol."

*Disciples start snickering and laughing.*

Jesus: "Ok ok because you said this, I'll heal your daughter. But first you gotta bark like a dog!!"

Aryan woman: *sob* "b-bark bark..."

Jesus: "lol fucking goyim. Ok now go away, your daughter is all better lol."

Mark 7:24-29

>>17924093
They're...who gives a fuck you autistic Grammer Nazi

>I will leave this physical attestation to my resurrection
>It will captivate the world and become the most studied relic in history
>I will let it be tested in 3 separate laboratories and-
>*turns out to be a 13th century forgery*
>erm...welll....uhh...that was to test your faith! the real evidence is found on discord and x threads from sketchy 3rd party sources with 400 parasite weight loss pill ads
>*throws it into a dusty display case to never be examined ever again*
>*vatican doesn't even claim its authenticity*

Is this the best they got?

>>17923872
>>17923863
>>17923852 (OP)
This person is a Jew.

>>17924402
>If you don't believe that Yeshua Ben Yosef, the circumcised Rabbi of Nazareth, is the Maschiach, then you're a JEW!

>>17924191
You stepped out of his protection.
You listened to the cops
You got your shop burned down

If you want it back, return to his protection, which also necessitates that you pay up

People who don't pay the Don also will not be protected by the Don

>>17924409
well no Jews believe he was a false messiah they killed why would they want anyone to worship him?

>>17924213
>No. Why would he?
Why can't god forgive without jesus?

>>17923887
>using 13'th century tools
How do you define a "13th century tool" when we don't even know how the fuck shit like Greek fire was made? We have limited known knowns to work with, but there are known unknowns that we know existed but with an incomplete formulation of their details, and no notion of unknown unknowns (things which they had of which there aren't any surviving descriptions) at all which is obvious from a time in which most of the population was illiterate and the few written records also got destroyed by various circumstances all the time.

>>17923852 (OP)
>Stigmata are on the wrists, which was how the Roman's actually crucified people, rather than the palms, which is what all depictions of Jesus from this period show.
It's interesting.

A lot of Christians rely on proof of any kind. However, many Christians do not believe in the Shroud of Turin as an authentic Holy artifact.

>>17924213
>No.
Your god is not omnipotent.

>>17924718
Because that is not just

God is love, and it is not love to let you off the hook and raise a spoiled brat

If you want forgiveness, recognize that you are wrong, and he is right

>>17923902
What's the point of pivoting away from the shroud which is what this thread is about? We don't need to go through this Christian apologetics thing again.
>And I won't let it slip
Ok so you're pedantic as well. Pass.

>>17924845
Omnipotence does not mean he would do whatever.

This may come as a surprise, but God has no Free Will
Free Will means Free Will to decide whether to accept him or reject him
God cannot deny his nature, and his nature is love. Infinite Love

The question is whether you'll accept him or not

>>17924857
>god creates you flawed
>gets angry at what he created

deranged narcissist

>>17924882
He created you perfect, and you choose to corrupt yourself.

>>17924272
>what kind of omnibenevolent being would punish people for the sins he knew they would commit before the universe even existed?
You're suggesting that he would. Ultimately nobody truly knows how God would judge a particular individual. Best you can do is be faithful and try to live by Christ's teachings.

>>17924881
>The question is whether you'll accept him or not
God predestines people to heaven, this has to be previous to seeing any merit of man.
Therefore if you weren't predestined to heaven that would mean that god created people without the capacity of ever being able to accept him. If you were predestined at some point you must yourself to god, or else his grace would be resistible.
Is it really fair to say that the decision of accepting god falls on the human?

>>17924317
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father infinite; the Son infinite; and the Holy Ghost infinite. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.

>>17924881
>God has no Free Will
Nice omnipotence? He can do everything, yet somehow can't choose freely?

>>17924272
God never created sin.

He created freedom to choose to accept him or reject him
Rejecting him causes sin, and sin causes death and disease to exist.

He made you for a mission that is perfectly suited for you. And you choose to abandon it, thinking that you know better than the one who made you.
You are a fish that jumped onto land, complaining about the existence of dried gills and sea gulls

Free Will is a matter of Faith, not material
Material is bound by a never-ending chain reaction. It has no Free Will
But you have a soul. It is divine and exists in a plane that cannot be understood through finite means

If you want to throw away the concept of Free Will, then you also must throw away the concept of Right and Wrong.
Morals come from God and God gave you authority to decide whether to follow his laws or not

>How exactly does salvation work anyway
You committed a crime
You cannot pay up
Jesus came to pay the bail, under the condition that you would worship him as otherwise, you would undermine his laws and end up back in the same cell

>>17924881
The question was "Can God," not "Will God." You lost.

>>17924909
Predestination is a heresy
It doesn't make sense considering the effort Jesus did to convince Israel to come to him
And how he cried, knowing that they would be destroyed for their self-worship

>>17924920
>>17924930
Omnipotence does not mean "whatever"

God is an infinite being
Infinite means it is unbound by finite means
Infinite means it is the same no matter where, when, and how you look at it
Shapeless, colorless, and timeles Infinite Love

God cannot Lie because lying implies shape - a front and back.
Shape implies finite
Finite cannot be God

>>17924881
Can you get a trip so people can filter you christ spam and gaslighting nonsense

>God cannot deny his nature, and his nature is love. Infinite Love

Ah yes the god (according to your jew tales) that created the reality knowing that majority of humans will go to hell and be tortured forever is a loving god

Also stop using that cringe vatican psyop. A decade ago you christ tards were saying anime is demonic.

>>17924951
Hell is a choice, and so is Heaven
If you wanted to be saved, recognize who is in charge, admit that he is right, and make ammends for your sins

>A decade ago you christ tards were saying anime is demonic.
*Protestants
Pokemon got a Papal blessing while Protees were screaming about videogames being demonic

>>17924951
She is right and you know it

>>17924941
>Predestination is a heresy
Both the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Bible teach predestination. You are willingly turning yourself away from gods teachings by denying his sovereignty.
Both Pelagianism and Semipelagianism are condemned by the church, which means that salvation can only be started by the mercy of god. Therefore humans cannot willfully turn themselves to god unless they were predestined before any merits.
Now, how is the decision of believing in the hands of humans?

>>17924941
>God cannot Lie because lying implies shape
>Shape implies finite
>Finite cannot be God
Only Jews and Muslims get to use this argument as they believe in the oneness of god, you need to somehow cram trinitarianism into this and treat god as Jesus, a discrete chunk of baryonic matter with finite proportions.

>>17924960
>Hell is a choice
according to the bible it is not. salvation is bestowed by god NOT BY HUMAN WORK. stop lying

>recognize who is in charge
if god is in charge why is he blaming someone else lmao. he wants the worship of the god in authority without the responsibility. this is deranged narcissist abuse lmao

>thousands of christian retard sects arguing the other one is wrong and going to hell
prophetic failure "did not bring spirit of confusion"

unironically kill yourself and get eaten by your cosmic tyrant instead of holding humanity back and tricking them to waste their energy on your jew egregore

>>17924962
samefag

>>17923919
>dodging the question

>>17924402
>You're a Jew if you don't worship a Jew!

>>17924941
>God cannot Lie
Not omnipotent.

>>17924881
>He heckin' loves you even though he'll damn you to hell for not worshiping a random rabbi from ancient Rome!

>>17924884
This directly contradicts the teaching of original sin anon

>>17925048
It's pretty much the same, isn't int?
He created the first humans perfect and they decided to ruin it. Now all humanity is fucked and babies go to hell just for existing.

>>17924884
how can a perfect thing be corrupted? if you are perfect you would either resist corruption or be incorruptible

do you even read what you write lmao

>>17924941
That's pretty good take

>>17924941
>It doesn't make sense
It indeed doesn't make sense. But it's dogma.
This should be your wake up call to stop believing in nonsense.

>>17924977
No it's not

>>17925009
The Church has no authority to declare who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.
That is exclusively under God's judgment

>>17925070
Perfect means perfectly under his authority and therefore perfectly under his protection

The mansion is safe
You went outside and entered the Free Candy Van
Now, you have aids and Ebola, and your children will also have it

Don't complain about being in quarantine
Be grateful that he chose to give up his entire fortune to afford the cure for both you and your children.
When you were supposed to be incinerated

>>17925141
It is not dogma
Calvinism is a heresy

>>17925047
You choose to reject him
Heaven is not a reward. It is God's home.
You cannot enter anyone's home if you will not recognize its master

>>17924437
Your only concern is to be on good terms with the judge of the afterlife

The Don can do whatever he wants; he is merely being given the time to repent

>>17923911
Image of Guadalupe, miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal, eucharistic miracles which are preserved today, incorruptible bodies, Padre Pio, etc.

>>17925250
Since you ignored all the other points I'm going to assume you know how wrong and retarded you are

>creates you with a personality flaw
>says your responsible

>creates a mansion where leaving it will kill you because he's a psycho

lol lmao
cosmic jewish schizo

>>17925292
Free Will is not a flaw

>>17925250
>No it's not
Is that all you have to say? Do you have any source to back up your belief?

>>17925255
>Calvinism is a heresy
Yes, but Calvinism is not only predestination, it is a whole system of theology which happens to teach predestination. In any case, his teachings on predestination differ from those of the church, so I don't see why this is relevant.

>>17925300
free will is not biblical

and two jewgod punishes you for acting the way you were created. deranged.

>>17925300
If free will is not a flaw, and God has perfect attributes, then why does he not have free will?

>>17925334
He gave you the choice
You choose to make him angry
He is angry now

And you are crying foul.
Fuck off.

You get what you want - his wrath

>>17925346
Free Will means Free Will to choose your master
It is reserved solely for created beings

>>17925348
>the love of the jew god

>>17925380
You live in a first world.
You are healthy, wealthy, and literate
You are richer than 90% of the world

You spit on his face
And now you are terrified that he would cave your skull in

FUCK OFF

>>17923852 (OP)
>it’s some piece of paper
it’s a funeral shroud

>>17925032
You will find no greater source of confirmation than those who have every incentive to deny it

Talmud confirms that weird shit happened at theTemple starting in 30 AD. Same year Jesus was baptized and were ready for the sacrifice

>>17924926
>God never created sin.
But sin is a part of the universe, isn't it? If he did not create it, then God shares the universe with at least one other being capable of creating abstract concepts that significantly effect the universe and its inhabitants. God is therefore not omnicausal.
>And you choose to abandon it
Again, God is omniscient. He knows who will accept and reject him. His knowledge of this predates Genesis. Does he or does he not have this knowledge?
>Free Will is a matter of Faith, not material
Free Will is a matter of having agency over your future. If someone can see every branching path and where you land at the end of it, then you have a destiny. Destiny cannot be rejected, abandoned, or changed. The fact that someone can see it sets it in stone.
>Material is bound by a never-ending chain reaction. It has no Free Will
So the soul is not subject to causality?
>But you have a soul. It is divine and exists in a plane that cannot be understood through finite means
And it's also unknowable because we cannot comprehend the divine, only have faith in it? What part of that is "free"? Again, this sounds like an, "Offer you can't refuse," disguised behind the trappings of benevolence. Why don't we get to know? Why God insist on having infohazards?
>If you want to throw away the concept of Free Will, then you also must throw away the concept of Right and Wrong.
No I mustn't. I can write a story with characters who are objectively good and evil. The characters lack free will; does that mean that the good and evil they represent does not exist?
>Morals come from God
Then so does immorality. That's like saying that God created light but not shadow.
>Jesus came to pay the bail
I didn't ask about the definition of salvation. I asked how it works. If someone asked how magnets work, I'd describe the movement of electric charges creating magnetic fields or the angular momentum of electrons. I want to know the mechanics of sin and salvation.

>>17925722
No
The fact that I know that you are running towards a cliff doesn't negate the fact that you ignored my warnings, called me a party pooper, and flicked me off because sliding is so much fun.

God created freedom to choose. The consequences are yours

>>17923880
Because those are people that probably dont have a deep understanding of the bible or the historical context surrounding it. Maybe you should get out more

>>17925730
You know that I am running to a cliff. You can see my splattered body on the canyon floor. You could see that before both I and the cliff existed. That's called destiny.

>>17925739
*stupidity

>>17925740
My stupidity is also something you knew before I existed. That's called destiny.

>>17925745
Yeah, which is why God spent so much time sending you one sign after another

You called it bullshit.

Can't have faith with pride

This isnt the best evidence jesus is God dummy.
John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8 and John 20:28 have been always the best ways to prove it.

>>17925779
What gives The Bible special authority over other books with similar stories in them?

>>17925754
Stop dodging my question.
Does God know every decision I will ever make and what my eventual fat will be or doesn't he?

>>17925754
>>17925754
Stop dodging my question.
Does God know every decision I will ever make and what my eventual fate will be or doesn't he?

>>17924941
>Infinite Love
Infinite love, as in unbound, eternal and constant absolute love, would mean there could be no eternal damnation, because that would be a barrier to those characteristics. You could say unchanging, in that it would be infallibly precise and consistent, but that's not infinite, "eternal" or "just" would be more appropriate. Eternal damnation is where the love of God ends, it's the finiteness of his love, so his love cannot be infinite.
The same way God conducts or permits calamity, completely unrelated to the human touch, to let there be good from it, undermines any pretense of infinite love, because then the ups would be relative to the downs, implying form, antithetical to a boundless thing.

>>17923852 (OP)
It's a sign from God, specifically for our time. To ignore it is insanity.

>>17925950
Besides (not even going to get into the eternal punishment for a finite trial debacle)
>I love you always EXCEPT if you do X or Y or Z, then you'll get my full wrath!
This is form. Thus he cannot be infinite in his love, unless he is able to change said form, because form is a boundary and infinity is boundless, but that would mean he could very well change whatever form his attributes are bound to, meaning proper omnipotence, meaning he's just an asshole whose creation is needlessly left to suffer on a stupid rock.
To believe in divine omnipotence is stupid anyway, and a poor choice on behalf of the church. Nothing wrong with worshiping the strongest God there is (would be Jupiter).

>>17925892
He said you have Free Will, he acts likes you have Free Will, and therefore you have Free Will.

Your soul is divine, not material

>>17925950
Damnation is not his decision, but yours

God made humans for a specific design and violating that design brings suffering not just to you but to others as well

Fishes belong in the water
Animals belong on land
Humans belong with God

You choose to rebel against God's design in pursuit of hedonistic pleasures. Not only did you ruin his design, you also mocked him and lead others to the same path of destruction

You choose to stay away from God
And God shall respect that

>>17926226
Yeah, damnation is eternally separation from God
So it seems weird to complain about it when it's what so many people want

>>17926226
>God makes fallible, finite being
>This being, fallible as it is, doesn't live accordingly to God's perfection, because it doesn't know better
>this fallibility is, to God, who made it so, reason enough to condemn this being to eternal fire
How is this not refutation of infinite love, when the fallibility of man alone is a finite impediment to his love?
>It's not his decision, it's yours
I was made fallible but I'm expected to have perfect judgement? Sounds like a set-up for a gamble of the soul, and that's not something a being of infinite love would do.

>>17926445
No?
None of us are capable of returning back to our original intended design. Not on our own, at least

Worship Jesus, do what he asks, and let him do the rest

>>17926460
He is testing us for the sin of an ancestor, by leaving our fallible, finite selves' souls to teeter on the brink of eternal salvation or damnation. He could make it so we would always see the light by purging us of our begotten imperfections, but instead he decides it is more amusing to let us wallow in uncertainty downstream from our fallible minds and bodies. It's a sick game, and he likes to watch.
Instead of pouring his light directly into the hearts of every man and woman, as he easily could, he figured it would make for a better plot that this light be in the flesh, in circumstances such that its denial would be in accordance with the nature of man, which he refuses to interfere with, because hell has quotas.
No matter how you put it, in the end, this guy is an asshole.

>>17926198
You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again:
Does God know every decision I will ever make and what my eventual fate will be or doesn't he?

>>17926483
He knows the possibilities
The reality is yours

>>17926476
You are not teethering
You are being made to DECIDE.

You can not save yourself
You either recognize that fact and cling to Christ
Or do as you wish

>>17925754
NTA
>which is why God spent so much time sending you one sign after another
But he knew I'd jump, and he decided the signs he gave me were enough, despite having foreknowledge of my demise. In other words, he just didn't care enough.

And if he didn't know I'd jump, his signs would have been insufficient to account for my own stupidity, so either he is uncaring about his subjects, or about the degree of effectiveness of his signs.

A negligent god.

>>17926492
Asking a fallible being to decide on what happens to their soul is leaving it completely up to chance. He is thus playing with our souls, presumably for amusement.

>>17926494
He does not
How many times do I have to tell you: you are a DIVINE being in a human flesh

He gave you the authority to partake in the joy of creation. Your time is your authority that he gifted to you so you can decide whether to return home or not

The fact he knows all the possibilities doesn't negate the fact that YOU made your decisions.
You spent your time doing what you want and he shall respect that

>>17926497
Falliable means incapable of becoming perfectly in submission to God's will

It doesn't mean incapable of repentance

>>17926491
So he knows the possibilities but he doesn't know which choice I will take?

>>17926507
So a god who is not all-knowing (if he doesn't know the ultimate outcome in advance then "all" isn't that) decides I'm so lucky as to be awarded what could very well be a ticket to hell, per all the possible outcomes? He is a gambler and negligent. If he only distributed this ticket to people who wouldn't in any outcome deserve hell, hell would be a cruel lie, and god a liar. If he only distributed it to people deserving of hell, he is a sadist. In any case, it's a deal in bad faith.
>divine being in human flesh
The flesh decides what I do and don't do in this earthly life, so it is the flesh that is to blame, and the soul that pays. Unfair, cruel system.
>You made your decisions
My decisions are of my flesh. Earthly man isn't infallible, his actions might not be in accordance with god's wishes. God gave me an existence permeated with doubt, and a defying attitude, and against the odds presented in the blueprint he made for me, wants me to lower my head lest to the gallows with me. God is a charlatan who wants his subjects to grovel before him, and to call it love while we do it.
>>17926509
Fallible means susceptible to fault or failure. This includes failure to repent. People are dumb and emotional and don't know any better. If god is aware of that he must be aware that his deal is in bad faith.

>>17926537
Sure. Time is his gift to you.
You write your own story, he's merely a guide at best

>>17926548
All-knowing doesn't overwrite your Free Will
If everything is already set in stone, there would be no use for Time.

Again, you are a DIVINE being. Don't think that you are incapable of wielding the authority that he gave you. That's the lie of the enemy

Yes, being Falliable means we would always make mistakes
But it is only a mistake if you recognize that it is
And it is not a mistake if you refuse to apologize to him. That's not an error, that's a full rejection of his will.

Do that and you will go to the place of your fellow self-worshippers

>>17926562
>All-knowing doesn't overwrite your Free Will
>If everything is already set in stone, there would be no use for Time.
All knowing overwrites free will in the fullest sense of the word. All is both every outcome and just the one, before it happens. The consequence being that time would be redundant for a being above it, but not to a human, who merely lives it. In any case, all knowing or not, to leave a fallible being to their devices for the possible outcome of eternal torture is unacceptable if we're to suppose a loving and just god.
>But it is only a mistake if you recognize that it is
>And it is not a mistake if you refuse to apologize to him. That's not an error, that's a full rejection of his will.
Human fallibility means anything a human thinks or does can be the object of personal fault. Someone who genuinely and to the best of their intellectual ability, refuses to apologize for something they are told is a mistake because they believe they're in the absolute right, but unbeknownst happen to actually be in opposition to god, is screwed. Unlucky!
Someone whose past mistakes made it impossible for them to contemplate upon their later ways and repent, causing them to go under unrepentant, has to pay for eternity because they missed the train.
Some people grow up to be hateful because their minds were shaped by traumatic events in their youth. If god will ignore what indeed happened, and judges only by what would have been if, then he is trivializing that same gift you claim he holds so dear.

>>17926614
You do not end up in hell for a mistake.
You end up there for rejecting God with a full conscience
Similarly, Heaven is a decision of wanting to be with God

If you want to be a citizen of heaven, act like one and recognize it's ruler and his righteous laws

>Human fallibility means anything a human thinks or does can be the object of personal fault
The difference is whether you are willing to ask for mercy and live according to his will, or not

>>17926626
>You end up there for rejecting God with a full conscience
Someone may reject the christian god/Jesus with a full conscience because they came to believe, from the culminated evidence and experience they've gathered in their life, and to the fullest of their mental and emotional capacity, that there's a righter alternative, and they are doomed for that. If someone came to cultivate a distaste for submission and humility, only to be confronted with christ later on, their following rejection would always be condemned.
People who have lived separated from christianity, who reject christ because their modern experience gave them another belief system, who inhabit a world where the church is a former's shadow, who would have to have an even stronger faith than those who came before, because christ's footprint is diminished on account of many concentric factors, are condemned.
That's a lot of people getting scorched, and not one of them acted in disconformity with human nature. God often demands inhuman, improbable acts of loyalty from probabilistic humans who aren't even loyal to themselves sometimes. Entrapment of the most perverse kind.

Jeez this thread is full of actual morons who don’t even understand the religion they attempt to critique. Let alone the basics of language, metaphysics, connotation, etc. Embarrassingly ignorant. I was hoping for a thread on the shroud of Turin, which once again, most replies are completely ignorant of the details and evidence involved. Critical thinking and multi-dimensional analysis is nowhere to be found. This board is middle school tier. The anon posting the raincoat anime is the only based one here, hilarious.

The kingdom of God is within you.

Learn how to read poetry you dorks.

>>17926653
You CANNOT reject Jesus just by "believing"
You reject him by your heart's desire and it shall show through your works

If you love the Lord, you'll do your best to honor his design and fulfill the mission he gave you

Perfection is impossible. All he asks is for you to recognize that fact

If you refuse to acknowledge that fact, then you have no business in his house

>>17926662
>you have no business in his house
That he forcibly put me out of, to see if I could make my way back in. He's a little bastard.

>>17926662
>You reject him by your heart's desire and it shall show through your works
>be kind and compassionate person, help others
>don't believe in jesus, never will, think its a hoax
how fucked am i?

I remember how every hack claimed that eucharistic miracles are real and how it's real blood.
Then we invented DNA testing and it turned out that not a single one of them contain human DNA or it's nothing more but contamination. Most of them actually do have DNA of bacteria or fungi causing reddish discoloration.

And what a shock, they all showed blood type AB, the one that always shows up in serological tests if the sample is contaminated. What is shroud's blood type? Of course it's also AB.
Christians are just gullible, but I doubt most of them truly believe in this stuff.

>>17926680
enjoy flames

>>17926700
>t. God

>>17926699
It's actually pretty funny reading all this cope. Most of them know little to nothing about DNA and ancient DNA sequencing so they write stupid shit that DNA 'mysteriously' lacks some sequences, as if it's unusual for old degraded DNA to be incomplete, lol.

>>17926685
EVERYONE thinks that they are kind and compassionate.
No one believes that they are the villain

If you refuse to recognize Jesus as your Lord, then you are not as kind and compassionate as you believe you are

>>17926699
You know that's a lie.
Why do you lie

>>17927385
>If you don't worship my Jewish king than you're a heckin' BIG MEANIE

>>17927488
enjoy hell

>>17927488
Correct
Jesus is the coolest guy EVER

Why on Earth would you refuse

>>17927388
It's a fact. None of them yielded any usable human DNA, and no, it doesn't mean their DNA is magical.
For example there's this article:

>Methodology for the analysis of biological impurities associated with peri-eucharistic phenomena

>The author’s team on the basis of analyses of 25 actual cases undertook to prepare research procedures that make it possible to separate phenomena that are difficult to interpret scientifically, from those associated with contamination. None of these cases revealed the actual proof of existence of human blood, human material other than single epidermal cells, and erythrocytes (probably very low-level contamination). In one case, insignificant amount of human male genetic material was observed, probably as a result of DNA transferred from a person to a host via contact with the host itself. In several specimens, a variety of microbial and fungal material was identified (Brevundimonas intermedia, Serratia marcescens, Epicoccum spp,. Fusarium spp.), including species producing reddish-pink or orange-reddish pigments (Epicoccum spp., Fusarium spp.).

Then there's that DNA analysis of some recent Austrian case. The result is the same.

About AB blood type:
>Aged blood, or blood that has been stored for a period of time, can be susceptible to contamination by bacteria, which can interfere with accurate blood typing and potentially lead to adverse reactions if transfused. Specifically, bacteria can alter antigens on the surface of red blood cells, leading to ABO discrepancies.

>>17927516
Where'd they get that 25?

There are only 3, and tests for them are double-blinded.
None of the doctors who tested them know that they came from the church or that it was even bread at all

>>17927516
Another random article about AB blood type.

>Bacterial contamination is a leading cause of transfusion-related deaths after ABO-mismatch
And here's something about the so-called miracles:

>The relics of Jesus and Eucharistic miracles: scientific analysis of shared AB blood type

>As discussed, AB antigens are not unique to human red blood cells but are also expressed in bacteria, providing a practical connection between such varied objects. Moreover, this article clarifies that the communal presence of specific and unique polymorphic markers would be required to validate that bloodstains associated with such items truly originate from a single source.

>Because AB antigens are shared among humans and bacteria, one cannot be certain if typing results are authentic when dealing with aged or contaminated samples using these methods. A sample could test positive for AB without any red blood cells even being present.

>>17927539
You cite ancient stuff from the 90s. None of them tested them genetically. They only observed them under the microscope and came to wrong conclusions. This is perfectly possible as the guys were all doctors, not people studying fungi or bacteria. They already assumed it's a human body, saw under the microscope something that looked like degraded tissue and wrongly interpreted it as a real thing.
DNA testing isn't interpretation. It's hard science.

>The study included a total of 25 cases of colour or structure changing of Eucharistic Host (in the form of white bread) after the consecration. They come from churches and other places in Poland, Germany, the USA, and South Africa, where Communion was distributed.

>>17927561
There's only 5 Eucharistic Miracles
Miracle of Legnica
Miracle of Lanciato
Miracle of Buenos Aires
Miracle of Sokolka
Miracle of Tixtla

It is not available for testing, and if the Church were to send it, the inspectors would be given no background story

Call the previous studies bullshit if you wish, but Eucharistic Miracles aren't something anyone could just have access to. If they were given one, they would not know

>>17927589
>All examinations were ordered by the Church’s officials. In most cases, the hosts fell to the ground shortly after the consecration, mostly during distribution of the Holy Sacrament. They were then picked up and placed in the water-filled containers (vascula) to dissolve, a procedure according to the ‘Liturgica instaurationes’ (Kozłowski 2018). However, after several days of storage and observation, some of the hosts did not dissolve. Instead, they exhibited the signs of red and purple colour stains (Fig. 1a–h), with corresponding liquid turning red, rusty, yellowish, or dark brown (Fig. 1a, e–h). The stains were usually either jelly-like (Fig. 1a, e–h) or dried (Fig. 1b–d), sometimes with corresponding signs resembling the mould colonies (Fig. 1a, c), while the liquids (if present) were mostly opaque.
From the same article. There's nothing inherently different between the cases you cited and these ones. I'm certainly far more convinced by DNA testing than by a bunch of guys looking at something under the microscope and describing what they see.

>>17927621
All this shows is that they went around whatever Church they could find that claims to have one. They never had access to the confirmed ones.

All their samples are bunk. So what