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Thread 17969527

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Anonymous No.17969527 >>17969532 >>17969541 >>17969565 >>17970186 >>17971308
Remind me again why Islam is at all taken seriously?
You see people constantly lauding it as the most internally consistent religion. I would argue the exact opposite
Anonymous No.17969532 >>17969554
>>17969527 (OP)
>You see people constantly lauding it as the most internally consistent religion
Where are you seeing this?
Anonymous No.17969541 >>17969563
>>17969527 (OP)
Point 1 is false. Muhammad is only infallible in religious matters, not worldy matters. He's not perfect and he's certainly not perfect in the way God is.

I'm confused on what your point is when it comes to point 2, none of that is contradictory.

point 3 is just false, the Kaaba was not an idol, the kaaba simply housed idols.

A pajeet made this btw.
Anonymous No.17969554 >>17969572
>>17969532
Discourse often devolves into “tawhid is the only/truest monotheism” even amongst secular scholars. When the reality is that Islam contains central doctrines that are far more contradictory to pure monotheism than anything in the other Abrahamic or Dharmic religions.

Islam is by far the most paganistic, tribalistic, idolatrous main religion yet is consistently viewed by uninformed onlookers as “monotheism stripped to its barest elements”
Anonymous No.17969563 >>17969758
>>17969541
1. In Islamic theology, al-Insān al-Kāmil (Arabic: الإنسان الكامل), also rendered as Insān-i Kāmil (Persian/Urdu: انسان کامل) and İnsan-ı Kâmil (Turkish), is an honorific title to describe Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. The phrase means "the person who has reached perfection",[1] literally "the complete person". It is an important concept in Islamic culture of the prototype human being, pure consciousness, one's true identity, to be contrasted with the material human who is bound by their senses and materialism. The term was originally used by Sunni Sufis and is still used by them, but it is also used by Alawites and Alevis.[2] This idea is based upon a hadith,[2] which was used by Ibn Arabi, that states about Muhammad: "I was a prophet when Adam was between water and clay."

2. The Quran being physically perceptible as a book and able to have its physical nature destroyed/burned YET being uncreated is the exact theology of the word becoming flesh in Jesus, a theology that Islam denies as heresy. Somehow a divine attribute can become a book but not a man, the very image of God himself

3. The meteorite black stone was and still is an idol worshipped in pre Islamic Arabia. There is zero archeological evidence Abraham was in central Arabia, that is retroactive hogwash. People literally trample one another to kiss the stone, are required to pray in its direction and believe that it will testify for them on Yawm adDin

4. Wrong, I’m an American whose skin is so pale my veins show
Anonymous No.17969565 >>17969569 >>17969573
>>17969527 (OP)
just a reminder because it’s a common error people make when comparing christianity to islam
they think jesus = muhammad
bible = quran

it’s more like jesus = quran and also bible = quran
where christ is the Word made flesh in christianity, the Word is the Quran in islam
Anonymous No.17969569
>>17969565
Exactly my point thanks for the extra clarification. You can’t simultaneously believe Islamic doctrine about the Quran and say the theology around Jesus as the Logos/God the Son is heresy
Anonymous No.17969572 >>17969575 >>17969584
>>17969554
Says the one who prays to cheap chinese figurines, wears a cross, prays by making the cross sign etc. Pretty much everything ''christian'' is not based on the bible but just made up shit
Anonymous No.17969573
>>17969565
Another issue that runs into though is it makes claims about Muhammad’s perfection inherently heretical, in contrast to Jesus
Anonymous No.17969575 >>17969586
>>17969572
Dawg the same can be said for Islam every single aspect of the worship is pre Islamic Arabian jahiliyyah reskinned in some poorly remembered bits from Judaism that an illiterate couldn’t bother to get right. For example changing names to rhyme, and forgetting to mention names altogether that are explicit in the original Hebrew
Anonymous No.17969584 >>17969587
>>17969572
just o you know that the christian “praying to cross” isn’t praying to the object but the person and event it represents. just like revering the quran as eternal isn’t worshiping a physical book as god.
Anonymous No.17969586 >>17969597 >>17969724
>>17969575
These are all practices done by Muhammad, whether you disagree with it or not is another matter. While none of so-called ''christian'' practices are based on the bible. The cross is not some good luck charm that will bless you if you wear it around your neck, or if you tattoo it. Nor is praying by making the cross ever mentioned anywhere, its not how Jesus prayed. Neither having statues of Jesus or Mary mentioned anywhere.
So pretty much point is that whether you disagree with an Islamic practice, the thing is it comes from the Quran and what the Prophet did, not random made up shit.
Anonymous No.17969587 >>17969600
>>17969584
>just o you know that the christian “praying to cross” isn’t praying to the object but the person and event it represents.
Is this based on the bible? Who is the authority that deemed the cross a representation of Jesus?
Anonymous No.17969597 >>17969609 >>17969634
>>17969586
The cross is so obviously central to the narrative of the New Testament that it serves as the symbol of Gods power over everything, even death when in human form. You’re not required to pray to a cross. In fact most people don’t. They may just carry one or something.

By the way Muhammad changed his practices constantly, such as moving the qiblah from Jerusalem to Mecca.

The overall point is that Jesus is a better person in every way than Muhammad so I don’t care that Muslims consistently follow his example. The man had sex with a 9 year old.

Someone who follows a tenth of Jesus example is an infinitely better person than Muhammad himself
Anonymous No.17969600 >>17969609
>>17969587
Did you forget how the guy died? Even secular historians agree he died on the Roman cross
Anonymous No.17969609 >>17969620
>>17969597
>>17969600
He was crucified, okay. Does that give the cross magical powers? How is being obsessed with a symbol to the point christians are is not considered idolatry?
Anonymous No.17969620 >>17969655
>>17969609
I never said that some fringe example of someone treating a cheap plastic crucifix as having the power of God isn’t idolatry. I would agree that it is.

My point is that the vast majority of Christians do not and would not think like that. Just like no one thinks burning a picture of their mom kills her.

On the contrary, Muslims consistently do think like this. Picrel
Anonymous No.17969634 >>17969667
>>17969597
Meh muhhamed at least was a sucesfull warlord stateman political leader religious leader and merchant, Jesús was a preacher that died and people Made up histories about him comming back from the grave and also his cult is being eaten alive by the muhhamedinian one
Anonymous No.17969655 >>17969682
>>17969620
>My point is that the vast majority of Christians do not and would not think like that.
They obviously do. Even if you haven't met a christian that wears a cross or has it tattooed which seems dubious considering how popular such symbolism is, i really doubt anyone at all would even consider it problematic. Not to mention churches having statues of Jesus and Mary like that also isn't idolatry.

Also pic rel, the standard christian prayer, which afaik obviously didn't come from the Bible or Jesus.
Anonymous No.17969667 >>17969679 >>17969758
>>17969634
Ah yes, the successful warlord who ushered in an empire that led to the highest rate of incest on earth

I’m glad that the lack of any moral consistency whatsoever doesn’t matter to you, I guess that’s exactly what appealed to brain fried illlerate goat herders who initially signed on. Could be carrot and stick’d into dying in battle for the promise of base animal pleasures like sex and wine in heaven

No sense of moral purpose, higher will, sacrifice for theosis, transfiguration of humanity by God’s ordering principle of the universe

I’m glad that in the end the pathetic attempts by Islam to recapture the glory of New Rome led directly to Columbus seeking a new trade route and Christianity conquering the world while Islam pittles out for centuries, wallowing in filth and resorting to illegally migrating to euro countries better in every way and polluting them with their backward tribalism.
Anonymous No.17969679
>>17969667
>No sense of moral purpose, higher will, sacrifice for theosis, transfiguration of humanity by God’s ordering principle of the universe
Accurate description of christianity
Anonymous No.17969682 >>17969700
>>17969655
That’s like saying someone having a calligraphy art of the asma al husna is idolatrous because they’re attaching the names of god to a piece of cloth

None of these criticisms don’t apply identically to Islam
Anonymous No.17969700 >>17969748
>>17969682
No it isn't. There is no good luck charms in Islam. Neither are statues or made up depictions of prophets allowed. Or made up prayers. So thats 3 examples of idolatry right there.
Anonymous No.17969724 >>17969735 >>17969744
>>17969586
Why the fuck would Jesus be praying to crosses during his life and ministry?
Crosses only became relevant to Christian tradition AFTER Jesus died on one

This is so dumb
Anonymous No.17969735 >>17969749
>>17969724
This is the Muslim brain on…
not understanding basic causality
Anonymous No.17969744 >>17970197
>>17969724
>Crosses only became relevant to Christian tradition AFTER Jesus died on one
Thats my point as well, since it was after his death who was it that said the cross should be idolized? Because it clearly wasn't him.
Anonymous No.17969748 >>17969753
>>17969700
How is “made up prayers” idolatry? You mean someone cannot pray to God from the heart without it being some formulaic garbage that Muhammad came up with?

What a soulless, embarrassing excuse for a religion
Anonymous No.17969749 >>17969761
>>17969735
>god died on a cross
>so we should worship the cross also
>and im supposed to be the idolater and polytheist
makes sense
Anonymous No.17969753 >>17969765 >>17970079
>>17969748
Because you don't pray how God commanded you to, or how Jesus prayed.
Anonymous No.17969758 >>17969799 >>17971359
>>17969563
>Sufis and is still used by them, but it is also used by Alawites and Alevis.
Nta but nobody cares about fringe groups. It is consensus that prophets are not "perfect". Even in the Quran the prophet was corrected for his behavior, so you cannot claim he's just an exception.
>is the exact theology of the word becoming flesh in Jesus
The Quran is not the divine attribute of speech. It is an uncreated instance of speech. And no major muslim group says the paper and ink are part of that in any case, just the words. You are confusing your bread = actually real mangod theology with ours.
>are required to pray in its direction
Yes and? How does that make it an idol you fucking moron? It doesn't even represent God like the statues in your churches. It's a prayer marker from heaven. Like Umar put it "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone."
>I’m an American
Your shit image includes hindoos. The most blatantly polytheistic major religion. You aren't fooling anyone
>>17969667
>christian talking about moral consistency when he believes God's perfect laws are now invalid after Jesus (Paul) changed his mind about the salvation mechanism in his religion
Anonymous No.17969761 >>17969773 >>17969786
>>17969749
>YOU ARE REQUIRED TO BOW IN THE DIRECTION OF A PHYSICAL OBJECT FOR PRAYER TO BE LEGITIMATE.
>YOU ARE REQUIRED TO VISIT THE KAABA IN YOUR LIFETIME.

THAT IS THE TEXTBOOK DEFINITION OF IDOLATRY

>CHRISTIANS DO NOT BOW TO CROSSES FOR PRAYERS TO BE LEGITIMATE
>CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE TO VISIT THE SITE OF THE CROSS AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIFE

Why is this so hard for you to understand
Anonymous No.17969765 >>17969783
>>17969753
That was taken by muslims from ancient Byzantine East orthodox liturgy, genius. Many eastern Christians do, and did so long before Muhammad
Anonymous No.17969773 >>17970212
>>17969761
Muslims pray towards the Kaaba, not TO the Kaaba.
>>CHRISTIANS DO NOT BOW TO CROSSES FOR PRAYERS TO BE LEGITIMATE
>>CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE TO VISIT THE SITE OF THE CROSS AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIFE
First and foremost you don't even know how to pray, the way you pray is made up by humans and has no basis in the Bible or what Jesus did whatsoever.
Anonymous No.17969783
>>17969765
Orthodox pray same way other christians do

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W198DoGX1v8
Anonymous No.17969786 >>17969804
>>17969761
>TEXTBOOK DEFINITION
In other words shit you pulled out of your ass.
>doesn't know the difference between salah and dua
>thinks having a direction for formal worship is idolatry when this is exactly what his bible teaches
Anonymous No.17969799 >>17969966
>>17969758
No it is consensus that Muhammad was the exemplary human being. He was preserved from sin, he could err in memory for example but could not sin. Which equals moral perfection. Even if we disregard the esoteric titles, he is clearly shown to be the example for humanity. Yet had sex with a 9 year old lmao

The speech itself is limited even beyond the physical nature of the book. The words of Arabic are not infinitely complex as God is, therefore they cannot fully convey the reality of God. So the Quran in some way has a crystallized material nature that is separate from God yet contains divine. And can be destroyed in its physical form as well due to this very fact. You couldn’t physically write the speech of God down unless it’s already downgraded somehow into limited human form (Arabic). This is the identical theology of the Word become Flesh(material, sarx in Greek) but for a text/book rather than a man.

Ok so I never need to visit the Kaaba? If there is nothing divine or holy about it why must I come to its physical location and touch it?

Yes, laws keeping the Jewish people distinct as the stewards of monotheism up to Christ is completely separate from moral laws that bind humanity. None of the Ten Commandments (spirit of the law) were abrogated, only ethnic distinguishers like diet etc that have no meaning when Judaism is fulfilled by Christ.
Anonymous No.17969804 >>17969821 >>17969841
>>17969786
The Bible never once says that a prayer is illegitimate if it’s not toward the temple, or anything of the sort. Get the fuck out of the here with that shit
Anonymous No.17969821 >>17969855
>>17969804
So what? This is how the Israelites prayed (as did the muslims before the Qiblah change) and you can cope and seethe as much as you want about it. And anyway if muslims cannot determine the direction then it still is valid.
Anonymous No.17969841 >>17969883
>>17969804
It doesnt say anything about idolizing the cross either. So from where did the idea that the cross is sacred come from?
Anonymous No.17969855 >>17969980
>>17969821
Nothing ever states that Israelites must pray facing Jerusalem, or that their prayers are illegitimate otherwise. It’s simply a tradition, like tapping the bat on home plate before the pitch. There’s no rule against not doing it.

In Islam there is. If one knows the qiblah and faces away the prayer is invalid.

Also why did the Qiblah move to Mecca after it had been Jerusalem for all history? Conveniently during the time of the prophet who was from Mecca lol
Anonymous No.17969883
>>17969841
Because God became Man, lived a sinless life of love and died on that instrument of death, to forgive truly and in the heart.

A God like Allah who forgives ultimate evil but never faced ultimate evil is no loving God.

The symbol of the evil humanity has wrought that paradoxically, God used for our salvation is that very cross. Visually the intersection of heaven and earth

And as a direct result Jesus defeated the powers of sin and death that separate an imperfect person from perfect God, and chooses to share his victory with all mankind who is humble and penitent before God.
Anonymous No.17969966 >>17970018
>>17969799
>he could err in memory for example but could not sin.
I just demonstrated otherwise to you, all you can do is just repeat yourself without directly addressing anything. And of course the only argument christians resort to whenever they are desperate. Completely ignoring the fact that it is exactly what your bible teaches. I don't even believe it happened because I doubt the authenticity of those reports
>therefore they cannot fully convey the reality of God
So what? We don't believe the Quran is God in any sense like you do with the logos. It's revelation to be used by human beings. You are just imposing John 1:1 onto us for no reason, and a bad interpretation of it too.
>You couldn’t physically write the speech of God down
Don't you believe Jesus literally wrote in the sand? Congrats on demonstrating that he is not God then lmao. I already explained to you how it is different but of course no response.
>If there is nothing divine or holy about it why must I come to its physical location and touch it?
Because God commanded it. And I don't even know what your problem with that is considering Christians believe touching relics from saints forgives their sins
>completely separate from moral laws that bind humanity.
Nope! Jesus told you to keep the laws. You don't even have any others to replace them with. You're essentially the same as an atheist with their subjective morals.
Anonymous No.17969980 >>17970065
>>17969855
>it's simply a tradition
"The Talmud (Berakhot 30a) instructs Jews outside the Land of Israel to face the Holy Land while praying; Jews residing in Israel should turn towards the city of Jerusalem; those living within Jerusalem should orient themselves towards the Temple Mount, and those next to the Temple Mount should turn towards the former site of the Holy of Holies.[6] The Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) thus specifies that in synagogues, the Ark should be placed such that "worshipers may pray in the direction of the Holy Land and the place of the Sanctuary in Jerusalem".[7] When synagogues are erected, they are built to face Jerusalem.[4]"
"Two centuries later, Saint Basil the Great declared that one of the unwritten COMMANDMENTS of the Church was to pray facing east.[16]"
>If one knows the qiblah and faces away the prayer is invalid.
Yep and if you can't know the prayer is then very much valid as you have admitted. Meaning your original point fails.
>Also why did the Qiblah move to Mecca after it had been Jerusalem for all history?
Because God commanded it that way. Jersualem was our Qiblah too so then you are saying they were idolaters for praying like your prophets lmao. What is the problem with God abrogating certain practices? You yourself believe that about the old covenant and religious rites. Was it also "convenient" to change that only when Jesus came? Double standards as usual. Anyway I have to go now, I will respond after I come back
Anonymous No.17970018 >>17970107
>>17969966
If the Quran is not Allah but is uncreated then it is a partner of God, sharing an attribute only held by Allah which is the very definition of shirk. If both Allah and the Quran are uncreated, you logically cannot say that the Quran is the speech of Allah because it is self existent, just like Allah. Your mental gymnastics around how it’s somehow “uncreated speech” but not God’s speech are at best, literal heresy according to basic Islamic doctrine. The point is really simple, any issue you have with God becoming man is multiplied a thousand fold when you have uncreated words that share God’s eternal nature but are somehow not God.

You’re exactly right, the Logos becoming flesh, God the Son in the Trinity is the exact theological underpinnings that make God’s creation of and interaction with separate material entities possible. Islam lacks any of this and doubly makes it worse by attributing God’s qualities to a book without having any theological reconciliation for how the eternal speech of God proceeds distinctly when it is self existent.

Relics “forgiving sin” is fringe medieval garbage, not believed by even one percent of Christians

Jesus literally spends MOST of his ministry criticizing the Pharisees misunderstanding of the law, it sounds like you’ve literally never read the gospels if you make an argument like this lmao
Anonymous No.17970052 >>17970068
I left Islam when I saw the South Park Mormon episode and realized it was just as retarded as what I believed about Mohammed.

Cuz deadass his entire argument for seeing an angel was “A Christian told me it was an angel”.
Anonymous No.17970065 >>17970110 >>17970173
>>17969980
The problem I have is that there is no continuity between Jesus and the Israelites / Muhammad. With Jesus you see a clear fulfillment in just the most incredible profound unexpected ways, of all aspects of the Old Testament. Jonah surviving inside a serpent in the waters of death. The Israelites being saved from death by trusting in the blood of the Passover lamb. David the lowly shepherd as the rightful king. It all prefigures Christ.

It’s obvious that Muhammad simply co-opted Jewish ideas poorly and repurposed them to the existing appetites of Arabia. When you read the Quran, truly ask yourself if it feels like divine truths? Half the time it makes references that make no sense if you’ve not read the Bible. Like it will say “remember when Moses did…” and it has no context.

Anyways my overall view is that the minutiae doesn’t matter, what matters is that Jesus is so obviously morally perfect and even you Muslims see that, that he comes to judge the living and the dead on Yawm Ad Din

I find it infinitely more convincing to my heart that God would become that man, to act in boundless love and forgiveness and save our very natures- than the belief that a book allowing for sex slaves is somehow the speech of God.

I don’t care that it’s difficult to believe God would become a man. He set the example. Man must be humble and deny ourselves before God because God himself was humble before man.
Anonymous No.17970068
>>17970052
Oh yeah didn’t he think it was a demon or djinn at first?
Anonymous No.17970079
>>17969753
Muslims be like

>the Bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted

Then cite the Bible to prove their religion

FYI Jesus was described as praying kneeling, standing, and many other ways besides prostrating
Anonymous No.17970087 >>17970116
My problem with Islam is that it feels like someone who heard popular Christian and Jewish stories secondhand, including apocrypha. And then filed the serial numbers off to avoid questions. There’s no mention of the female prophets at all. And Mohammed seemed to think that Pharaoh Ramses name was literally “Pharaoh” among other things. He thought Mary was part of the trinity. And said Jews worship Ezra. And worse yet, said Alexander the Great was a monotheist.
Anonymous No.17970107
>>17970018
>then it is a partner of God
Nope! An instance of speech can be uncreated while simultaneously not being eternal since it is spoken in time like the Quran was. If you deny this then you believe every time God speaks "Be!" to create something he has to create that act of speech by another first ad nauseam. You believe in infinite regress like atheists now? Also I never said it's not God's speech, I said it isn't the eternal attribute of speech. No part of the eternal nature of God is shared with anything
>the exact theological underpinnings that make God’s creation of and interaction with separate material entities possible
Nonsense logos theology. You believe God cannot directly interact with creation, how is he omnipotent? And anyway you have just conceded it is not the same theology, it's just pagan Plato's thought you are imposing onto us.
>fringe medieval garbage
No it isn't, that's just the belief that the relic itself is doing it. What most Christians believe is in the intercession of saints. I literally saw it with my own eyes in an eastern Orthodox church I visited. Christians lining up to touch the saint's body parts. Even the bible says holy men have power while they are dead 2 Kings 13:21 but of course just like with Jesus it all comes from God. But beside that the bible uses black stones from heaven to forgive sins too
>criticizing the Pharisees misunderstanding of the law
He does so because they are hypocrites who do not actually follow the law. They only preach it but don't actually abide by it themselves. They would rather follow the traditions of men, which is what Islam also criticizes them for.
Anonymous No.17970110 >>17970126
>>17970065
>With Jesus you see a clear fulfillment in just the most incredible profound unexpected ways, of all aspects of the Old Testament.
No, you don’t. Thats literally the reason why Jews rejected him.
Anonymous No.17970116
>>17970087
That's just false, nowhere does it say it is a name. The verse you are referencing is not saying that Mary is part of the trinity, just that she is elevated to the same level as Jesus. But even then there were and still are people who worship her. We have records of some Jews also saying that about Ezra, and it's not hard to see why considering the texts say he was no longer human and all that. Alexander being referenced is just an opinion, one that is not even the majority.
Anonymous No.17970126
>>17970110
Isaiah 53 and David referencing piercing hands and feet with enemies around a thousand years before crucifixion existed in Psalm 22 prove that it was the whole point all along. The nation is literally called “wrestles with God” (Yisra-El)
Anonymous No.17970173 >>17970180 >>17970190
>>17970065
>With Jesus you see a clear fulfillment in just the most incredible profound unexpected ways, of all aspects of the Old Testament.
This is just unjustified opinion and thus can be discarded. When we read the OT and NT we can also find the same thing about the final prophet. A lot of messianic prophecies that you think are fulfilled actually are not according to Jews, many are even completely invented or just misunderstood so I see where they are coming from sometimes.
>if it feels like divine truths?
Yes! But my personal feelings are irrelevant, that's not how you demonstrate things. The Quran referencing previous scripture is not a problem, the NT does the same yet you believe it is divine truth
>that Jesus is so obviously morally perfect and even you Muslims see that, that he comes to judge the living and the dead on Yawm Ad Din
No, he will judge the world with God's perfect laws like an earthly judge when he comes back. Much like the OT idea of the Messiah, there's nothing there about a mangod who just has to die.
>to act in boundless love and forgiveness and save our very natures
There's nothing loving or forgiving about an innocent man acting as a sin chicken to save us from sins we didn't even commit (original sin).
>than the belief that a book allowing for sex slaves is somehow the speech of God.
The bible is not the word of God?
>I don’t care that it’s difficult to believe God would become a man.
It's not "difficult", it is just impossible because it posits direct logical contradictions and it also goes against the older scriptures. When God says he is not a man then he is not a man, simple.
Anonymous No.17970180 >>17970228
>>17970173
Let me ask you, how can Allah forgive sin when he has never experienced that evil? You’re telling me that’s a moral system? God can just decide to forgive a murderer when he has no conception of what that victim felt like?

Muslims are so laughably bad at understanding what forgiveness actually means. It’s not a hand wave that just makes the sin go away. It means absorbing the pain of the sin without retribution.
Anonymous No.17970186
>>17969527 (OP)
>internally consistent religion
maybe muslims say this but few others. by necessity the most internally consistent religions are the youngest and shortest lived ones.
Anonymous No.17970190 >>17970228
>>17970173
Also you realize original sin doesn’t mean you’re literally on the hook for some guy eating an apple, it’s an allegorical represtantatoon of humanity’s ability to sin as a result of free will and God trusting us as independent entities. All have sinned. Not as an inherited sin, I mean all human beings have made grave errors including both of us. Muslim conception that humanity is somehow inherently sinless and only led astray by outside forces is fallacy. We constantly from the day we are born wrestle between self preservation and altruism.
Anonymous No.17970197
>>17969744
Do you understand that Christianity is not Islam?
Not every religion take the form of 1 guy handing out rules about what's permissible and impermissible methods of prayer.
Anonymous No.17970212
>>17969773
You seriously think prayers got a direction, like on a compass?
This is so silly to me
Anonymous No.17970228 >>17970403
>>17970180
>God can just decide to forgive a murderer when he has no conception of what that victim felt like?
God is omniscient, he knows our souls and minds better than us. And therefore he can deliver perfectly fair judgements.
>It’s not a hand wave that just makes the sin go away
Who said that's what we believe? God is not only perfectly just but also merciful. He can literally undo our pain and every injustice we have faced at the hands of others.
>>17970190
>it’s an allegorical represtantatoon of humanity’s ability to sin as a result of free will
Adam had free will before the fall. What changed within our nature after the first sin? Do you really believe we deserve to burn for just because we are born after that event?
>Muslim conception that humanity is somehow inherently sinless and only led astray by outside forces is fallacy.
No not just outside forces, we can also sin due to the desires of our nafs for example or just straight up wanting to challenge God like Satan
Anonymous No.17970403 >>17970449
>>17970228
> He can literally undo our pain and every injustice we have faced at the hands of others.

Goes directly against the scared inviolable idea of humans having free will. Proves Muslims haven’t reconciled true forgiveness and soteriology
Anonymous No.17970441
They retcon all the inconsistencies through naskh.
Anonymous No.17970449
>>17970403
How? While we are alive and undergoing the test this doesn't happen so no matter what twisted logic you are using it just doesn't work.
>true forgiveness
Asking for a blood payment is not forgiveness. Anyway why did God start demanding this? Even the OT description can just forgive.
Anonymous No.17971308
>>17969527 (OP)
>why
because mooooslimes murder infidels
Anonymous No.17971359 >>17971566
>>17969758
>The Quran is not the divine attribute of speech. It is an uncreated instance of speech.
I don't understand what this means.
Anonymous No.17971566
>>17971359
One is the ability to speak, which is always eternal and part of God's indivisible essence that is shared with nothing else at all. And the other (the Quran) is an act of speech, which has been instantiated in time. This is the traditional understanding which I personally subscribe to. There's nothing eternal being shared with anything in that view so your criticism cannot apply to begin with. Within Sunni Islam creeds however you have something of a middle ground like with the Asharis where they believe in an eternal act of speech that's fundamentally tied to the essence, which is distinct from the letters, sounds, words and anything created that was conveyed to the prophet. They affirm only the latter to be created but not the former, (which is like we believe completely uncreated). Both however believe that the book in our hands and the voices we recite with are created. The main difference is that we believe the Quran was recited as is by God, while for them they believe it was more like completely abstract "concepts" being passed down. Your criticism for that reason also doesn't even apply to them.