Thread 64238352

I LMAO at the eternally seething Air Force Fudd.

>>64238391
>nigger general starts yelling in broken ebonics
What did they mean by this?

>>64238396
The entire movie is reformer masterbatory bullshit so idk

the bradley isnt even bad, so i dont know why they shit on it so hard. couldnt hollywood come up with a worse piece of equipment to shit on?

>>64238412
>he doesn't know
It roughly goes
>Air Force puke wants to make jet-powered P-51 in the 80s
>gets turned down
>totallynotmad.png
>gets assigned to liase with Army on Bradley testing
>doesn't understand post-Vietnam doctrine
>doesn't understand IFV concept
>doesn't understand live-fire testing
>convinces himself that procurement is conspiring to make bank on a POS deathtrap
>makes himself a giant pain in the ass
>Army complains to Air Force
>"Colonel Burton is a respectable officer with a distinguished service record, you're just salty"
>finally trips himself up when he complains in a report that a water tank placed over the engine to see if it extinguished fires was sabotaging the tests
>turns out that the water tank was his suggestion in the first place
>and yes, they DO have that in writing
>gets removed from program
>gets the officer death spiral of desk jockey work until he retires
>that means he's now the only guy involved not bound to military codes of propriety anymore
>writes a book about how cool he is and the Army sucks and is trying to kill soldiers

>>64238412
It's propaganda. One that /k/ seems to be lapping up.

>>64238470
I doubt it. It's an American movie.

>>64238475
Everything is propaganda to someone. Look at all the people who are still convinced that They Live was a hidden-in-plain-sight documentary.

>>64238456
Don't forget that the IFV wasn't even a new concept at the time, it's not like you could reasonably mistake it for a next gen M113 that got out of hand or something.
All the Bradley was doing was being the US take on the Soviet BMP which meant doing it the US way. Which meant yeah more expensive, but also better protection and substantially more capabilities as a combatant.
But I'm just being silly. Clearly the reformer knows best and nobody would want to roll up to a fight in a tightly integrated, survivable light armour asset with a great gun and optics. That's silly. Why would anybody ever want their mechanised infantry in one of those?

>>64238352 (OP)
Of course not, it's meant to be a poop carrier! We're selling this thing to India!

>>64238566
>>64238456
>BMP-1 was fielded by the Soviets in 1966
>Marder was fielded by West Germany in 1971
>Literal GULF WAR where Bradleys were used extensively in 1990-1991
>The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard came out in 1993
>Adapted into an HBO film in 1998

The timeline for this is utterly messed up. The Reformers were out of date by decades, and didn't understand what an IFV. And for whatever reason, everyone ignored the Gulf War, where the Bradley performed well. I think the smart bombs took president over it in the media coverage.

>>64238582
BMPs were trash. IFVs were a failed concept before the Bradley was even considered.

>>64238352 (OP)
the M2 bradley carries 2 less people than an M113
you lose 2 riflemen, which reduces redundancy within a squad, which isnt an ignorable drawback

but what you get for those 2 riflemen is a 25mm cannon for knocking out heavy targets, an additional M240 for spraying down infantry, a missile launcher for hard to reach spaces, and the associated thermal camera on the cannon for spotting threats
and unlike an m113, the M2 stays with the squad and acts as an additional squad member in combat instead of acting as a seperate element once empty

at a platoon level, the loss of 6 men from each squad mostly means the loss of the dedicated weapons company, the MGs and missile launcher
which is a pretty big loss until you remember each M2 has its own MG and an autocannon on top of that, so you arent exactly lacking a base of fire

>>64238582
It's mystifying. If any other country had a victory as insane as 73 Easting, it would have become part of their cultural mythos. Americans largely preferred to deny that it ever happened 2 years later.

>>64238566
>mistake it for a next gen M113 that got out of hand or something.
It did kinda start out that way, with the FMC AIFV vehicles. But back then it wasnt really a final concept, more "throwing things at the wall and see what sticks".

>>64238364
to be entirely fair, the being deployed in singles as an ersatz tiger tank by the Ukrainians to blunt Russian armored offensives consisting of MTLBs and dudes on electric scooters was not the use case anybody envisioned for the Bradley back when it was being developed

>>64238582
>>64238594
it is worth pointing out that the movie doesnt imply that the M2 bradley is trash, since it implies that the problems that burton pointed out were addressed before it saw service

not that it makes it any more accurate, since the M2A2 bradley with improved armor was largely developed independently from burtons input and it was just coincidence that it arrived a few years after the joint live fire test

>>64238493
>They Live was a hidden-in-plain-sight documentary.
It was kinda cheesy, but not totally inaccurate.

>>64238602
Which is pretty typical of reformer shit. They'll take credit for the F-15 and F-16 too, ignoring that it's not the variants inkeeping with their visions that made them the iconic and enduring machines they are today.

>>64238596
>THE BRADLEY CAN'T TAKE A FUCKING RPG-7 TO THE SIDE AND WITHSTAND IT!
>Sir, it's a fucking troop carrier, and an RPG-7 has like 450mm penetration, it'd have to weigh about 100 tons to be proofed on all sides
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>64238597
>with the FMC AIFV vehicles
the XM723 did sort-of resemble a super M113
but the upgrades were pretty well-thought out and not just changes for the sake of it

the 20mm gun was found to be lacking and the turret needed to be enlarged anyways since the 1-man turret was proving to be unfeasible
the larger turret basket displaced a dismount chair, but it was kind of needed for the vehicle to be able to fully use its gun

the TOW missile was maybe the only part of the design that was added at the last minute and TOW ammo displaced another chair
and while they actually didnt approve of this design, they mentioned that the TOW was added solely to wow congress, it ended up being a happy accident since the TOW ended up being extremely effective

>>64238617
To be fair, aren't most modern IFVs essentially MBT hulls with smaller turrets?

>>64238600
While true, I think it also speaks to the fact that the vehicle was built right to begin with. You fight the war you end up in, not the one you planned for. It was built for a doctrine but it wasn't built with the assumption it'd always be used in the exact way prescribed by that doctrine, which would lead to shortcomings being used outside it.

>>64238623
>aren't most modern IFVs essentially MBT hulls with smaller turrets?
Not really, they generally have a shitload less frontal armor, smaller chassis/engines, etc.
The only ones that are MBT-sized are the Namer (literally a Merkava sans turret) and the Puma.

>>64238623
they're nothing of the sort. completely different designs, because they require far more internal working volume and far less (essentially none, when compared to an actual tank) armor

>>64238626
what I mean to say is that the way they've been used (very successfully) in Ukraine would've been unanimously deemed
>completely fucking retarded, what the fuck is this shit
by the engineers and procurement officers at the time, and it is most definitely not how the US would've ever ended up using them.

>>64238623
Nope. Most are just armored enough to stop 7.62mm rifle fire on the sides. Most have optional armor kits to stop 50 cal from the front. The only APC that has a tank hull is the Namer, which is only expected to traverse flat land with no bridges.

>>64238626
It speaks to the fact that it's an accurate autocannon on tracks. A Wiesel AWC would be basically just as good.

>>64238632
NTA. I too remember the "WTF it's not a tank" response, but I'm not sure I really buy it. US doctrine isn't as die-hard on the Bradley being part of the squad in the way a BMP is for the Soviets, as evidenced by platoon leadership being split between the dismounts and the vehicles. On the attack, the Bradleys form the base of fire for the maneuvering infantry. On the defense, using the Bradleys as the platoon's reserve and rapid response element just makes intuitive sense.

>>64238637
>Most are just armored enough to stop 7.62mm rifle fire on the sides
not since the 70s
the M2 bradley was 14.5mm protected on the sides from the start, and is 30mm AP protected with add-on armor
the british warrior and german marder 2 were also all-around 14.5mm protected without add-on armor

soviet 14.5mm spam meant anything that would ever expect to see a bad guy needed that level of protection
the post-war move to 155mm artillery also meant 14.5mm protection would be needed to stop the heavier splinters

>>64238637
Adding more armor is a reactive measure. What if instead of trying to stop a bullet we build an APC where they just pass through harmlessly?

>>64238632
>>64238643
That's true for a lot of things they've been using over there. When Australia was sending Bushmasters over Ukraine was getting first dibs on the ones with the stabilised RWS, because it let them use the .50 or 40mm in a much more aggressive shoot-and-scoot way that you apparently can't usually do with a vehicle in that MRAP-y space.
>>64238640
As a gun, but it's not as versatile a package. Can't exactly CASEVAC with one or ferry a fireteam up to exploit a position/out of a compromised one.

>>64238644
>not since the 70s
>the M2 bradley was
>british warrior and german marder 2 were
Well that's not most APCs. We should consider the BMPs, BTRs and such.

>>64238592
You don't lose those guys, you get another bradley.

>>64238582
>pretending like the Gulf War was actually a test of anything at all

>>64238664
bradley, stryker, and M113 platoons were all organized into 4-vehicle teams, so they did actually lose those 2 men

3 vehicles for the rifle squads and 1 vehicle for platoon HQ in the M113 platoon
due to reduced capacity, the M2 bradley downsized each squad to a single fire team
after the next round of re-organizations they now fit 3 full squads across 4 vehicles with the platoon HQ removed
though it is common practice to downgrade each squad into a fire team so that they can have a proper platoon HQ and reduce cross-loading squads


the stryker operates 3 rifle squads like the M113 squad, but they are able to fit an additional weapons team in with the 4th vehicle holding the platoon HQ

>>64238352 (OP)
>sir, it's.. ass raping... T-90Ms...

>>64238475
Point and laugh, everyone.

>>64238685
You mean they aren't invincible?
I am very demoralised.

>>64238582
>>64238456
To be fair, it was just a film and it had some really funny bits in it. The problem was midwits taking it as fact and regurgitating it all over the internet.

One thing I loved was that while the movie is absolutely just poke fun lie fest most of the way through, when the Bradley was being made there actually was the discussion about it carrying less guys than a squad sized element, and the solution some major in the development cycle came up with was 'then just use two Bradleys per squad' and they acted like he was a fucking genius.

>>64238352 (OP)
This was a disingenuous piece of shit even without hindsight. The fake blueprint they use in the film has something that looks like a .30 cal mounted on top to imply that this thing was supposed to be what the M113 already was (which hilariously enough has something even bigger in a .50 cal). This is to exaggerate the contrast when the gun is upgraded, which in real life was from a 20mm to a 25mm not a machine gun to an autocannon.

>>64238685
>Three years for bombed out shithole land with little to no infrastructural or strategic value left without major reconstruction efforts which is easily going to cost billions, perhaps trillions
>Putting half your armoured corps and most of your what used to be well trained airborne infantry into a fucking meat grinder alongside losing trained up personnel and masses of equipment for said bombed out shithole land
>Get your oil industry crippled by constant drone raids by enemy forces, throwing prices of gasoline in your most major cities up by nearly 3x
>Throw half your economy into the trash with needless military spending for, again, bombed out shithole land worth little more than the ash covering the dirt
>See innovations of military capability in the form of drones daily, whatever benefit can be gained from those advancements the ukranians also get, alongside giving the entire west a firsthand look at and well seasoned ukraine vets to come over and tech them how to do and how to counter
>Drive your biggest nationality rival (finland) into NATO with a war over, AGAIN, bombed out shithole land
>Push yourself into an international spiral with any and all western aligned (NATO and allies) countries, with any sort of reconciliation likely to take years, if not decades with public oil sales (of what you can make left) being so under the table that you may as well lay on the floor and do it
>Only ally of note worthiness is china, with everyone else being just as bad a state as you but without the war to cripple it
Any victory, any W, any 'glroious russian future on the blood of the hohol' was never worth the price. Is ukraine gonna lose? Likely, and it's going to continue losing much, but anything russia could have ever gained from the war the way it's gone, eg the attritional, drone hellhole, west relations destroying one we've seen happen for the past three years can only be measured in costs and sacrifices, not gains in any meaningful sense.

did burton ever mistake a BMP for a tank?

>>64238731
Army light infantry squads should contain 14 men anyway tbdesu. 6+6 = 12 dismounts in a pair of Bradleys for a full-strength mech infantry supersquad. 9 guys for Stryker elements.

I think the strangest thing about the film was when they said something like
>With that monstrous cannon sticking up the top, the enemy will think it's a tank and unload on it with everything they've got!
>I mean, we know it's a troop carrier, but do they?
As if Russian soldiers will be like "Hold fire, Vasili, that's just a troop carrier!"

>>64238793
Why 14? I mean, I understand 12 if you want to have three fireteams of four, but 14 doesn't make much sense to me.

>>64238853
room for one healer and one bard

>>64238600
>IFV maneuvering to attack light armor and infantry
That's exactly the use case they imagined for it.

>>64238853
Three teams of four, a squad leader, and an assistant squad leader (or more accurately the squad leader's assistant). Even without an assistant it would be 13 guys with three teams, squad leaders aren't also team leaders.

>>64238850
>There goes another tank
>Hold your fire, no 120mm smoothbore detected.

>>64238582
*precedent, bro

>>64238637
What's the use of APCs that weigh over 50+ tons if they're so proportionatelly undergunned, and so comparatively few? Ok, the CROWs keeps the gunner safe, it's still a 7.62 machine gun.

>>64238582
>took president
Kek, the gall of Americans when they call others ESL.

>>64238933
>What's the use of APCs that weigh over 50+ tons if they're so proportionatelly undergunned
it was just considered an acceptable tradeoff for protecting the crew
israel never bought into the IFV role, and declined the M2 bradley after they asked if it could remove the cannon and then re-invest the saved weight in armor

>>64238933
You underestimate the power of a 7.62mm machine gun.

>>64238637
>Most are just armored enough to stop 7.62mm rifle fire on the sides.
The threat they are intended to protect against is artillery, not direct fire.

>>64238958
the baseline of 7.62mm all-around protection is because that was the largest weapon a typical enemy infantry platoon carried
.30cal rifles and a .30cal MG, protection from 105mm artillery fragments could be achieved with much thinner armor

the move to 14.5mm armor protection on western AFVs as a baseline was a direct result of proliferation of 14.5mm AP weapons from the soviets
it just so happened that that level of protection also granted incredible resilience to fragmentation from heavy artillery

>>64238850
It's unsportsmanlike to blast a troop carrier, dontcha know? It's why all nations are legally obligated to make their troop carriers look like troop carriers instead of modifying tanks. It's also why Israel is the only country to use modified tanks as troop carriers. We were gonna mandate everyone write "TROOP CARRIER" in large white letters on the sides of their vehicles, sadly soldiers couldn't resist scratching off the "TR" and replacing it with a "P" so the idea was axed

>>64238913
*precedence, bro

>>64238412
It’s not really about hating the tank. More about how superior officers keep interfering with the design

>>64238868
>Picrel
Bosnia?

>>64238747
>>Drive your biggest nationality rival (finland) into NATO with a war over, AGAIN, bombed out shithole land
They even made Sweden undo its 200 year long policy of neutrality.

>>64238690
First and foremost it's been abandoned beforehand.

>>64238747
You forget the inflitration of russia proper. Russia could reach the river in 10 years, call it a win, and still have to deal with bombings at home for another 10 years. There really isnt a way to describe this other than disaster.

>>64239046
It gets so so much better than that
>In a new essay for the state-run news agency TASS, Deputy Security Council Chairman Dmitry Medvedev claims that Finland is laying the groundwork for a possible NATO attack against Russia. Citing Helsinki’s “defensive measures” and NATO’s growing footprint near Russia’s northwest border, Medvedev argues that Finland is repeating its ruinous collaboration with Nazi Germany during the 1930s and 1940s.
Medvedev is drunk-posting again

>>64239053
Winter War again fuckers, do it. Fucking do it. Come show the world how you totally won't eat shit again, we'll all be so impressed and totally don't just want an excuse to pile on.
>>64239046
I think that one's the single most spectacular fuckup. Downright impressive.

>>64239046

Not to mention the greater strategic situation of the baltic previously being broadly contestable between Russia and NATO with Sweden and Finland chilling. Now 75% of the Baltic coastline is NATO, the entire sea is a shooting gallery for NATO aircraft and the Baltic fleet (75 fighting ships) are basically a tax write off.

So that they could expand the number of goat farms in east Ukraine they control.

>>64239053

Time is a flat circle in Russia

>>64239053

Saint Pidorsburg in 2 weeks!

>>64239053
>Oi voi! The ryssä know!

>>64238412
Why is the Bradley so frustratingly loud? A modest muffler would do wonders without sacrificing power.

>>64238364
FPBP

>>64238600
Correct, they envisioned something a lot more like Desert Storm where Bradleys killed more tanks than the Abrams.

>>64238592
People tend to overstate the bushmaster's capabilities. It's not good for hard targets, but it is effective at suppressing bunkers and fixed positions. It's very accurate which helps to put HE directly into fighting positions, but it's not likely to knock them out. It evaporates troops in the open too

>>64239382
>but it's not likely to knock them out
Anon the accuracy lets you put 25mm HE into firing slits, this won't destroy the fortification but it'll make the guys inside have a really bad day.
The bunker still standing full of bodies and fucked HMGs is nearly as good as taking it out.

>>64238592
Something, something don’t put all your eggs in one basket?

>>64238352 (OP)
I don't even know why we needed to see the Bradley in Ukraine to know it was good when it proved itself to be good in Iraq.

>>64239415
Lots of kids were born after the Guld War and believed Pentagon Wars until they saw it in action.
Us old men remember it fucking Saddam.

>>64238685
>>64238690
The russniggers do this with abandoned equipment a lot, fill them with explosives then film them getting blown to pieces. It's so they can say "see! Even western equipment is just a bomb on wheels!". Remember that every accusation is and admission

>>64239376
they knocked out more targets but not necessarily tanks
the M1 has more tank kills in the largest battle of the war. so its more than likely that the M1 has the most tank kills in general, with most of the M2s kills being BMPs

>>64238456
Shit dude the Bradley was vindicated in 1991.

>>64238933
The Namer's basically built for shitting on Gazans. Roll up on a fortified position, bouncing everything they send their way, and just crash the fucker into their building before dumping the troops into the hole to clean out the occupants.

>>64239415
The ol' monkey model cope, plus a general (and justified) disdain for the skill of Arab troops. Surely, they thought, the Russians would actually know what the fuck they were doing, using the good equipment they were saving for themselves.

>>64238582
No. It makes perfect sense. The Reformers had a lot of mainstream credability in the 80s. The Gulf War rather kicked the legs out from under them, but they still had momentum from the left fumes. But it's really notable they'd been reduced to dabbing on the Bradley rather than the really big ticket air-force items that they really hated.

It's just that by the 90's most normies would be skeptical at the Reformer arguements that high tech jets and MBTs sucked. The Bradley got in as the Reformer's last mainstream hurrah cause a rando in the 90's who wasn't a military vehicle nerd wouldn't know what an IFV was.
>>64238602
>it is worth pointing out that the movie doesnt imply that the M2 bradley is trash
>Oh my god, the soviets might think it's a tank and shoot at it!
The movie is pretty blatant at presenting the Bradley concept a stupid idea for dumb dumbs. And it's pretty consistent with Reformer ideology since multi-role vehicles are only slightly less evil than technology. The movie presenting Boyd as having "fixed" the Bradley is just the cope to make him look like less of a loser.

>>64238493
>Blue-ish foreigners acting as parasites that disguise themselves as other races and control the media and legal system
>Funny noses
Lmao it was a documentary.

We can do whatever we want because we wear fancy suits.

>>64238582
>build the ultimate fighting machine
>they missed!
Boy did that age poorly. I'm so glad that the retarded reformers got put in the retard corner for good

Abrams > Bradley > unmanned iraqi t72
73 easting everyone

>>64239771
73 Easting was a question of optics quality and nothing else. The sandstorm meant the Iraqis couldn't for the most part even see the American vehicles blowing them to pieces.
Without the sandstorm, US air power would have resolved the situation without a big fight.

>>64238850
Eh, I can kinda see the point - a tank is worth killing ASAP, but it might be harder to justify throwing a Konkurs or Malyutka at a battle taxi when anything with a cannon can (probably) handle it.

>>64238867
Off-healers are already integrated into squads and bards are a company-level asset.

>>64239053
Medvedev posts sober?

>>64239832
>73 Easting was a question of optics quality and nothing else.
No. There was also serious issues with the Iraqi units not communicating with eachother effectively or even doing shit as basic as posting out sentries. There really were a lot of instances at Easting where the Americans rolled up to Iraqi positions finding that they hadn't mounted up in their vehicles or were manning their fighting positions. While the Americans had a major advantage thanks to their thermal optics, I'd argue their proficiency advantage was greater. And it was both compounding together that made Eastings such a one sided turkey shoot.

>Pic related: The 1 Bradley the US lost at 73 Eastings in exchange for 300+ Iraqi Republican Guard AFVs

>>64239832
The americans took the republican guard completely by surprise, many tanks didn't even have their engines on when they attacked. This was the greatest advantage, not the sand

>>64239053
>starting another Winter War after losing Barbarossa-levels of men and machines

>>64239918
>>64239914
They were taken by surprise specifically because of the sand.
They had absolutely no way of even seeing the American vehicles, who, using their thermals could destroy the Iraqis with impunity.

>>64239933
You're giving the Iraqis vastly too much credit. Yeah, there were instances where they couldn't shoot back because the US had them categorically outranged in low visibility conditions. There's also instances where US vehicles would drive literally right next to Iraqi vehicles without being spotted cause the vehicles were either unmanned/their crew were literally inside sleeping.
https://youtu.be/I4b7yl99wlo?si=wJonyA_BQBvElOkC&start=1510

It's really easy to get taken by surprise by anybody if you don't conduct patrols, maintain sentries or man your fighting positions/vehicles when the enemy shows up. There's a reason why at least some Americans who fought in Gulf War 1 figure they could have still beaten the Iraqis if you swapped the equipment(just with significantly more losses).

>>64239053
is this drunk retard really going to manage to gas someone up enough to actually kick off another front?

>>64239931
but they won the winter war
>muh kdr
russian lives aren't worth anything so their deaths are meaningless

>>64239986
>You're giving the Iraqis vastly too much credit.
It's not just me.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA257266.pdf
The Republican Guard troops were holding good, reverse slope positions where they were more than within effective range to actually defeat the Americans. All the while the Americans themselves were going for a frontal advance into these positions.
>Yeah, there were instances where they couldn't shoot back because the US had them categorically outranged in low visibility conditions.
It wasn't just instances, it was the entire decisive battle.

>>64238594
the military totally neglected control of the layman's information space (see also: millennium challenge)

>>64239553
The Bradley was vindicated when it got its first blood cutting a rogue E. Germoid BRDM-2 in half in 1987 that made the fatal error of being past the border and firing a warning shot at US forces in vicinity of the Bradley.
The germunist crew were sent home in ground beef bags

>>64239994
Yeah i wouldnt rule it out
>Chairman, Russian State Duma Defense Committee, Kartapolov:

>"Finland is becoming a hotbed of fascism, bigger than Ukraine. The incompetent policy of the Finnish leadership can lead to tragic consequences and it will be on their conscience. We know how to protect our interests and are ready for any development of events."

The bradley is fucking magnificent and it's the GOAT in its class.

>>64238493
>Everything is propaganda to someone
Next you're going to tell me pic rel wasn't a documentary.

>>64240023
They won in the same way russia would "win" a status quo ante bellum agreement in ukraine, a cope to conceal the fact that a stout resistance won the defenders the right to self determination if not without sacrifice (in the form of 9% of it's territory, kek). Post winter war finland wasn't soviet and that's what the sovishits wanted it to be

>>64238933
That's a .50

>>64240072
>Our computer simulation of 73 Eastings where we assumed the Republican Guard didn't suck had them be pretty dangerious in more ideal conditions
>This proves they didn't suck
This kind of thing *is* incredibly useful from a wargaming analysis pov. But I'm not sure it's definitively establishing what you think it is. It rather notably (though understandably) doesn't bother addressing the question of how many of the Republican Guard tanks were even manned. It's more a theoretical showcasing that despite the tech advantages the Americans had, a more capable opponent with the Iraqis gear COULD have been a serious threat.

>>64239986
>There's also instances where US vehicles would drive literally right next to Iraqi vehicles without being spotted cause the vehicles were either unmanned/their crew were literally inside sleeping.
Because the Iraqis couldn't see anything and assumed no one would attack because they wouldn't be able to see anything, either. For thousands of years, a sandstorm has been everyone's queue to get some rest because it's impossible to be attacked except possibly by a token force of infiltrators

>>64240159
More like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

>>64240408
>Because the Iraqis couldn't see anything and assumed no one would attack because they wouldn't be able to see anything, either.
Shit. You're right. Especially since American night vision and GPS technology were insanely well guarded secrets that nobody even knew existed at the time. There's no concievable way that Iraqi military intelligience and their leadership could have anticipated the Americans might theoretically be able to navigate/manuever and accurately shoot while under low visibility conditions. I guess it really was a case of a fairly proficient military that did all its due diligence that just legitimately got surprised by something that came at them totally out of the left field.

>>64238456
> doesn't understand live-fire testing
To be clear, his idea was that you should test any given vehicle against every possible munition.
“Yes, we all know that that unarmored truck can’t survive against an ATGM. Test it anyway just to see what happens.”
And he also wanted to do this to everything, up to and including warships. No, just just using a due-to-be-retired OHP in a SINKEX or similar, but pulling a perfectly good ship out of active service just to sink it.

>>64240576
>hey, you know those warships that cost ridiculous amounts of money?
>...yeah?
>lets test weapons on one of those too!
>...no.

>>64240576
I now have the mental image of Burton throwing a fit that they won't nuke a Bradley for him, and I'm going to accept it as canon.

>>64240023
>Lose a gorillion men
>Finland still exists
>Gained nothing
>Won
Lmao. The definition of victory in modern wars as always shifts based on what allows us to cope and seethe, usually to stack undeserving victories on foreigners and subtract victories from the United States.
Losses so severe they permanently damage your genetic demographics are never victory.

>>64239382
I’ve seen what it can do to an MBT in Ukraine so I’d say it lives up to its name

>>64238679
>PLAPPLAPPLAPPLAPPLAPPLAP GET PENETRATED

>>64240594
>But the Australians did it…
“No. You fucking retard”

>>64240576
It's perfectly logical if you consider that doing frivolous live fire tests on expensive prototypes non-stop causes the program costs to also blow up. And that the Reformers in general *wanted* all those high tech weapon programs to get axed. From that perspective excessively expensive tests in pursuit of a reason to get a program canceled is a feature, not a bug.

>>64240159
Reality is worse, because in Idiocracy the president knew there was a problem and found the smartest guy on earth to solve it, whereas in reality the president has found the dumbest people in America to make more problems.

>>64240576
>>64240582
>But how do we KNOW how much damage a Ford class carrier can sustain? Like how do we actually know it? Also, to be ultra realistic it should be loaded with 6000 sheep and a full air wing. Load it up. Do it. Do it.

>>64239415
the vast majority of users here were born long after 91 and a good chunk probably don't even know what happened in 91

>>64240989
Dude, the vast majority of users here are 35+. 4chan as a whole is a millennial site. Zoomers are on tiktok.

>>64240532
>Shit. You're right. Especially since American night vision and GPS technology were insanely well guarded secrets that nobody even knew existed at the time
Lad, night vision devices have existed since the second world war. Their existence wasn't secret, and neither were the hundreds of satellites yanks were slugging into space for their GPS. It was just another case of arab incompetence.

>>64240159
I'm going to twist your cock into a fucking balloon animal if I hear someone say that shit again

>>64241660
Did you know an immunity to sarcasm is a sign of autism?

>>64240965
I saw some comments along those lines on a shock test yt video of the Ford.

>>64241679
No, I didn't. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

>>64241660
You don't understand. There was *just* no way the Iraqi's could have known about these things. The US took all the steps to make sure the Iraqi's didn't know about GPS in 1991. Like not allowing the media to broadcast news stories about it back in the late 70's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?https://youtu.be/vP42xE1mxN0?si=QGVz2NQSMJUbbEK6

>>64241679
>Did you know an immunity to sarcasm is a sign of autism?
In his defense I did rather inexactly refer to night vision in general when my attached image was specifically about thermal optics on the Abrams being featured rather conspicuously in David Drake's marvel comics adaptation of Team Yankee. So perhaps my sarcastic shit post was a tad too indirect.

>>64240532
Even publicly available knowledge doesn't propagate instantaneously. The average Russian soldier probably had no idea how prevalent drones would be at the start of the 3 day SMO, despite the events of the war in Azerbaijan just two years earlier, and within the Russian sphere of influence. You think the Iraqis at 73 Easting had any clue about the capabilities of modern American armor? They had some of the newest and most capable tanks available to thirdies and assumed that American tanks would be similar or maybe a little bit better, not some sci fi shit that might as well be from the 25th century.

>>64238685
Sorry pidor, still not going to support puccia

>>64238737
The model they bring up is fake, but seems to be based on hearsay from the XM723 that was originally considered
The claim that the bradley is based off a modernized M113 with more armor and a 20mm cannon
And the bradley prototype did initally have a 20mm cannon and looked like a buffed up M113, though it still had a larger turret than what the model in the movie had

But the XM723 was always meant to be an IFV that followed troops into combat and not simply an upgraded APC, and the gun was deemed to small to accomplish this task rather than an arbitrary whim from a committee member

>>64241890
>You think the Iraqis at 73 Easting had any clue about the capabilities of modern American armor?
I don't. Of course I also think even in the Republican Guard most tankers probably only had a marginal understanding of the capabilities (or how to operate/maintain) their own armor. They were a praetorian guard unit in 3rd world country, and such units tend to prioritize loyalty and fanaticism over technical aptitude (and the standards for your conscripts regarded as subhumans would be even lower). So naturally most of them would only have a very fuzzy notion of all the tactical implications of fighting a more professional army with advantages in superior thermals/night vision and funky position telling magic boxes. Like that the enemy CAN in fact attack you in a sandstorm, so you should keep doing the basic soldier stuff like maintain patrols and sentry's that you should have been doing anyway.

Obviously in an army like that some guys will know better. But Arab armies tend to limit how many people they trust to amass that kind of basic practical knowledge, and promote them to high positions for the purpose of tard wrangling. But there's a limit to how much top-down tard wrangling you can do if the enemy is generally just a lot more competent to you.

>>64238659
The BMP-1 was from the mid-60s
Soviets also didnt have the same impetus to uparmor their vehicles since only the US used .50s and everyone else used 7.62 for everything

Soviets also still had an all-or-nothing mentality with armor
So the BMP was frontally protected against 23mm AP rounds but only 7.62 on the side
But the general trend was clear, .30cal protection was no longer sufficient for front line vehicles and 14.5mm was the new standard

>>64242213
Iraq's army was a serious military in 1990 and they were at least as competent as the Soviets/Russians or chinks have ever been. It's silly to hold other countries to the standard you would expect from the US since even the combined forces of all other Western countries would be steamrolled in a handful of weeks.

>>64242237
Prior to the ground war, their analysis of the iraqi army was that they were highly experienced as a result of the nearly decade long war with iran, still equipped with modern or near-modern soviet weapons, and being the fourth largest army in the world could achieve local superiority in number

The sheer quickness and ease with which they were defeated came as a huge shock to everyone, even the US, who expected to see a long, hard-won battle
It was so unbelievable that people were scrambling over every explanation
Some hold more water than others, like only the iraqi Republican guard being well motivated
Others are just cope, like monkey models
But they generally want any explanation that isnt that the US simply outfought the iraqis

>>64242257
To be fair that's also because there's few lessons to be learned and a lot of risk in going 'damn we really are that good'. If you did overmatch, as the Coalition and particularly US did in the Gulf War you want to do your best to understand how and why.

>>64242237
>since even the combined forces of all other Western countries would be steamrolled in a handful of weeks.
Wait, what? All the other Western Countries prior to the post-Cold war disarmaments? By the Iraqi army who got deadlocked by the Iranians for 8 years? And curb stomped in Gulf War 1 with a 100-1 casualty ratio?

For some reason I'm ever so slightly skeptical of this assertion.

>>64242257
>Americans thought war against the Soviet Union would be a horrible meat grinder that would cost tens of millions of lives on both sides even if nukes didn't come into play
>They were expecting the Iraqis to be as tough of an opponent, if not as large of one
>They were baffled when it turns out they were actually fucking useless and considered every reason why the Iraqi army was so much less competent than the Soviets
>35 years later, the true answer reveals itself: the Iraqis were in fact not less competent than the Soviets, and the Cold War would have been over in a month if it had gone hot, at least by the 80s

>>64242267
Framing it as the iraqi loss as simply an undermatch of technology diminishes what the US did right, if anything
Similiar to how the Japanese keep trying to frame their loss at midway to their own errors, or to US intel as a total blindside, rather than give credit to the US fleets actions during the battle

The massive logistical miracle the US pulled off, often credited to widespread adoption of windows spreadsheets to keep track of supplies down to the last bolt, is something that had a bigger effect on the battle than whether or not iraqi tanks had 80s era ammo instead of 70s era ammo

>>64242281
No, my comparison was intended to be the US vs everyone else. Obviously it wouldn't happen, but if we imagine it did, it would go about the same as US vs Iraq did both times: complete military decapitation in a matter of weeks followed by a failure to achieve any permanent social or political change.

>>64242302
Oh. Fortress America scenario. That's a bit less silly.

>>64238679
With an autocannon? How in the fuck is that possible?

>>64238352 (OP)
>>sir, it's a..troop...carrier...
Fuck yeah it is

>>64242296
Oh I agree on that specific note, I'm just saying you look for lessons in why you performed as well as you did or why you overestimated the enemy. You don't just pat yourself on the back.
>>64242347
Armor isn't magic. You keep hitting it in the same place, eventually something that can't pen it can pen it. From that clip it looks like they're hammering on the same spot on the turret and really trying to get rounds into the turret ring.
I suspect they were lucky/accurate enough on the first few rounds to cripple the sights and/or gun. Plus even if it's not penetrating, you're going to be having a bad fucking day on the inside of a tank getting pelted with 25mm autocannon rounds.

>>64242347
Supposedly, it didnt actually penetrate the crew compartment
But they damaged turret traverse and made it unable to return fire and the crew bailed once the coast was clear

>>64242334
I think I'm still not making myself clear. What I was going for was that if the US decided to invade the rest of the Western world for some reason, we would be looking back at the war trying to figure out why Germany/France/UK/Australia/etc put up so weak of a fight. There's lots of answers to that question, but they all boil down to a single fact: every other country, whether that's Germany, China, or Iraq, dabbles in war as a hobby. In the modern world, only America conducts war on an industrial scale.

>>64238654
>What if instead of trying to stop a bullet we build an APC where they just pass through harmlessly?

>>64242369
I don't think that's a great comparison when the more obvious answer is that nobody was preparing for that threat axis and in fact, had tied their militaries in quite closely with the apparent invader.
Iraq '91 gives people pause because it was the Iraqi army doing basically what it had expected to potentially need to do for a while at that point.

>>64238685
That rewind is peak multipolar

>>64242410
Getting steamrolled by a hegemonic hyperpower is not the kind of thing you can prepare for. The Iraqi leadership had deluded themselves into thinking the US wouldn't bother with fighting them, and if they did, that there was only a difference in size and not in kind between them. China is doing the same thing right now, drinking their own kool-aid and starting to actually believe that they're powerful enough to at least go toe-to-toe against the US, if not win. In a few more years they'll start some shit and then realize that it was over before it ever began.

>>64242363
From what I remember the Ukrainians managed to destroy the optics as well. For all intents and purposes a tank in that state is just a really shitty armored personnel carrier. With AP rounds there are plenty of good spots to hit a tank if you somehow manage to get into position like the ass or the tracks and gears. Preferrably you'd use the TOW launcher but from what I remember in this clip they ran out which is why they just resorted to the autocannon.
>>64242455
China is absolutely not the monster that many people make them out to be but at the same time they are genuinely cracking down on corruption and they have a fuckton of manufacturing capacity. Even if we assumed that China had all the flaws possible they'd still be able to cause a huge deal of damage to the US military if they were ever to come to blows just through mass.

>>64242492
>they are genuinely cracking down on corruption

>>64242347
Vision blocks, thermal sights, cameras--- ultimately, you're looking through glass which doesn't do well against HE-I

surprisedn o one has posted this yet

>>64242492
>geniunely cracking down on corruption

No.64238679
dude theare only t60's with t90A turrets anon chill out

also any fast fring cannon even a small one would get in at some time

the point?
the other guy couldn't even see to shoot back
if he could see he would of one shot him with that 130mm cannon.
its clear that russians are not able train tank drivers
41mm is not hard to avoid but getting hit fast and alot very few tanks can take those kinds of hits.

you have to realise that the M2A1 has a thermal sight as well as normal
the T60 and even t90A turret doesn't have very good version of this at all.

but really it just shows the driver is a noob
and got beat by an elite crew.

too bad the driver did good but should keep the front facing and fir and not manuver it was a bad call.
too bad it killed people in real life

>>64242574
Fucking tourist. You should be rangebanned for refusing to lurk.

>>64238933
Mostly used against light infantry hidding in buildings so it doesn't need more firepower.
Until recently, that level of armor meant it could advance with the men clearing said buildings, allowing for mobile cover, for casevac and for retreat if needed with good survivability.
Israël air force is enough against its neighbours armor.

>>64242532
The M1 has the advantage of multiple redundant optics, even if you knock out one, it can still aim and fire with the others
It has 2 thermal cameras to work with, and in a pinch you can aim with the RWS which has a third thermal sight

>>64238596
You laugh, but in an alternative universe where Ukies gotten blitzfighters instead of bradley, they'd taken Moscow already.

>>64242679
Isn't this just a modern UAV though?

>>64243020
Dude what the fuck? That design is dogshit

>>64243020
it's more like up-gunner trainer

Legitimately though, modern jets are now just lobbing BVR missiles, more often than not using AWACS to see the enemy instead of its own radar and rarely going supersonic in actual combat
Do they really need all the bells and whistles?

>>64238352 (OP)
>nooo you have to have a flimsy battle taxi which must retreat because muh ww2 doctrine demands it

Any faggot who doesn't want an AFV more than additional dudes needs to ask themselves if they think a armored box with an autocannon and missiles too heavy to be man portable provides more fire support for the squad than six rifles and maybe a single shot 40mm underslung at best. I never understood what the reformer issue with the Bradley even was other than it not being an aluminum box with a dozen dudes and nothing else.

Firing ports were dumb and a waste of time due to the nature of the AR platform.

>>64243091
You've basically hit upon the concept of paired fourth and fifth gen formations being floated at the moment. Have an F-35 running slick positioned forwards to get information, then use a datalink to beam that back to a swarm of angry (Super) Hornets actually firing the missiles from a safe distance, for instance. Or you could do the opposite, bait a force into an engagement only for missiles to suddenly appear from unexpected and very inconvenient angles because they couldn't place your F-35s that were already forward positioned.
You can do some real nasty shit with unexpected attack angles and shit with those concepts.

The other problem of course is that your enemy gets a vote too. Ukraine is a great example, Russia has much more strategic depth to play with because of their size, so they can have assets flying way further behind the lines, much higher. Ukraine doesn't have that same luxury and anything they fly is going to get picked up before it can get to altitude, leaving them at an energy and detection disadvantage for any incoming missiles. If they had access to a reliable VLO fighter it'd probably significantly mitigate Russia's current edge in this area, setting aside that it's not likely at the moment.

There's a place for a missile truck and the idea of a loyal wingman drone acting as an external store for a jet makes my dick hard, but there's plenty of reasons you at least want to have other options in your arsenal.

>>64238352 (OP)
>>64238364
>Mr. Food Machinery Corporation
>your second to none IFV in Ukraine has had some...
>unexpected developments

>>64238592
>the M2 stays with the squad and acts as an additional squad member in combat

>>64243383
Even in dismount, the Bradley fights for the Republic.

>>64238868
yeah but they thought it would be fighting together with infantry and as part of a large armored unit, with tanks covering them against enemy tanks and advances

what nobody expected was for the vehicle to attain a reputation comparable to the king tiger, operating as lone dealers of death cutting bloody swathes through russian company- and battalion-level attacks

>>64242281
>that graph
>no jets

>>64240953
Thankfully we are under trump admin now

>dad killed by a taxi driver
>sister kidnapped, raped and killed
>step brothers died in a diving accident
jesus, no wonder he started drinking at 9. this guy is in a worse shape than charlie sheen but at least he's got a valid excuse for that.

>>64242360
>Armor isn't magic. You keep hitting it in the same place, eventually something that can't pen it can pen it.
NTA but with an autocannon against thick armor that kind of thing would take hundreds or thousands of hits without lottery-winning levels of luck lining up shots hole in hole. When you talk about "multiple hits weakening an area of armor" you're usually talking about something much bigger and even then it's a crapshoot.
It's probably the other option, it must have punched through something other than the main armor.

>>64243559
NTA but if you think Pete Hegseth isn't the dumbest nigga possible for the position he's in then IDK wtf to tell you

>>64240953
post gun

>>64243621
You're right, I probably should've specified that it would've been combined with the specifically targeted points and that they didn't just get a War Thunder hull break or something.
>>64243623
He's finally fixing the Department of War and clearing out woke things like accurate BDAs.

>>64242360
>I suspect they were lucky/accurate enough on the first few rounds to cripple the sights and/or gun
by the gunner's own admission, he panicked when he saw the t-90 and tried to use vidya logic and aimed at the optics like he did in war thunder. it worked and the tank became blind, at which point they switched to hesh and burned the thing from inside out.

>>64243646
>Russian-biased, Russian-developed game helped a Ukrainian crew using an American IFV to kill a T90M and crew
Can't make this shit up. I'm sure Gaijin got a visit from the FSB after that.

>>64243635
>He's finally fixing the Department of War and clearing out woke things like accurate BDAs.
ok, I lol'd, that merit's a (You)

>>64242492
I am almost certain what was going through the Ukrainian's heads was
>SHIT SHIT FUCK ANOTHER ONE
>YEAH WE'RE OUT OF MISSILES
>DONT STOP SHOOTING, HIT THE GOD DAMN GUN, DONT LET THEM SEE US
>YOU BASTARD BITCH WHORE 25MM DONT LET ME DOWN, CYKA!!
>OH MY FUCKING GOD IT WORKED

Or something along those lines.

>>64242302
I don't think the US could pull it off. They have a stronger military, but no willingness to absorb losses. The last time they had to do a draft was Vietnam, and that was immensely unpopular. I think Europe could put up more resistance than Soviet-backed Vietnam, if there really was no alternative.
Of course that's assuming that the US win condition is destroying all armed resistance and occupying the world. If they picked more sensible war goals for once, it might go better. And obviously no one else has the logistical capacity to even consider invading the United States.

>>64242347
It's more dramatic than it looks. That explosion at the end was an external smoke discharger going off, not a catastrophic ammo cookoff.

Granted, *something* got fucked up internally since the T90 was left with its turret spinning around non-stop after the Bradley's were down hosing it down. Maybe a sabot got through a gap in the main armor or the constant HE going off fucked up some internal electrical circuitry. So combined with the optics almost certainly all being shredded this is absolutely a mission kill even if it could drive back to the Russian lines.

>>64243743
The fighting would be over before a need for replenishment. Obviously occupation would be hopeless, just occupying a single shithole in the desert was hopeless.

>>64243091
> Do they really need all the bells and whistles?
Yes.
Because it’s the bells and whistles that allow them to lob BVR missiles with any degree of competence.

>>64244273
>the T90 was left with its turret spinning around non-stop
The T-90 has been promoted to T-14 Armata.

>>64242455
>Getting steamrolled by a hegemonic hyperpower is not the kind of thing you can prepare for
I don't think people were confused that the Iraqi's lost to the Americans in Desert Storm. I think they were confused that the Iraqi's lost to the Americans harder than the Zulu lost to the British Empire. And that's even if you entirely write off Isandlwana.

>>64243635
>woke things like accurate BDAs
Kek

>>64243687
this. it doesnt prove that 25mm is viable in a real armor fight, but it does prove that if you hammer a turret ring with an entire ammo bank of sub par rounds, it will eventually fail. and thats pretty neat

>>64242347
This isn't war thunder. Even if you can't pen something with first shot, if you just keep shooting at the same area, it will eventually fail.

>>64238654
We shall call it the "M113".

>>64244608
And that confusion stems from an inability to recognize that *every* country is Zulu tier in comparison to the US. The US regularly conducts strategic airlift operations in peacetime that very few other countries could manage with full war economy and months or even years of production and planning. Even if there was no technological gap, the US would be assured victory purely from logistical expertise.

>>64244657
No. I mean ya you could conceivably penetrate this way but it isn't likely and that's not what happened here either. The brad splatted every exposed sensor and piece of equipment on the t90 with HE which effectively blinded the crew and seems to have also damaged the APS, which is designed to slew the turret to face detected incoming threats automatically, resulting in the turret rotating uncommanded. It was a very clever bradley crew vs. a t90 crew that didn't seem to know how to use their own systems

>>64244695
>It was a very clever bradley crew
I'm not sure about that but they got out alive so they get to live and learn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_wGNqBHO4w

>>64244671
I think the Iraq's being Zulu tier (but with modern weapons) would have been an improvement. Zulu tier at least means you're fighting someone with a conception of fighting by manuever and conducting small-mid unit initiative. These were generally alien skill sets even to the Republican Guard.

In battles where the Zulu lost, they were maybe losing a couple dozen Impi for every Red Coat. casualties in Gulf War 1 were more in the ball park of 100-1. That's a pretty astoundingly bad showing.

> the US would be assured victory purely from logistical expertise.
American logistical expertise was fantastic, but that's not what killed the Iraqi army. Having a vastly better logistics network tends to be a long-haul advantage, and the Iraqi army got annhilated on contact. That comes down to the Americans having some distinct technological advantages, a *very* proficient fighting force, and that the Iraqi Army was pretty dog shit.

>>64242563
Does anyone have a source on this stuff? Preferably a book? I love reading about soviet bureaucratic pissing matches.

>>64244273
>the T90 was left with its turret spinning around non-stop
I always thought that meant the gunner was dead and slumped on his controls.

>>64244831
American logistical expertise is what let the US attack Iraq from every direction at once except maybe from below, with an overwhelming amount of force. Meanwhile, look at the so-called second most powerful military in the world amassing troops and materiel for months only to roll it all down a single highway where they lost half their vehicles to poor maintenance and the other half were shot like fish in a barrel while gridlocked.

>>64238412
It was a video made by the 113 mafia to discredit it.

>>64244880
Not impossible. Though as another anon noted T-90M has Shtora sans the IR dazzlers. The laser recievers on that can autopivot towards threats, so them getting fucked up could have induced a short circuit of some kind.

>Makes movie about provable bullshit claim from a sir force guy who got his idea shot down
>doesnr make movie about actual conspiracy to kill US soldiers just because the AR platfotm was chpsen instead of Springfield
>doesnt make movie about multiple attempts to get the M9 contract canceled through outright sabatoge

>>64245488
>no movie about this fag

>>64245488
A lot of people think in big conspiricies instead of the simple reality, Hollywood is a for profit business that pulls from books constantly and pulled from a "military spending bad" book when public sentiment was "military spending bad".

>>64242347
IIRC the gunner said that War Thunder trained him to aim for weakpoints.

>>64242360
>Armor isn't magic. You keep hitting it in the same place, eventually something that can't pen it can pen it

Something that top sicarios were taught in Mexico years ago to deal with cars that have been armored. A full AK-47 magazine up close in a very tight spot will penetrate any up armored car.

>>64241660
>It was just another case of arab incompetence.
Anon Russians told each other ridiculous fairy tales about thermals (like set up fire and all thermals go blind) well into 2010s on their /k/equivalents (despite bazillion AH64 vids been publicly accessible on liveleak then). Russian equivalent of Reformers smirk "you technology just dont work Chud!"
In 1991 thermals and GPS were secret magic.

>>64238594
Since 73 Eastings has come up a few times.
https://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2016/2/26/eagle-troop-at-the-battle-of-73-easting
https://youtu.be/72XLTfmcaAw?si=6Jl6HuW5jfxT8tHD&start=418

It should be conspicious that despite Eagle Troop encountering and destroying a number of Republican Guard Pickets/Patrols, the Iraqi CO was only aware of the attack as the primary position was being overunn.

>>64244898
>materiel for months only to roll it all down a single highway
Rivers, bogs and bridges. Ukraine aint iraqi desert (that doesn't excuse Russian planning they should've thought about it)

>>64242347
Weakpoints, sabot rounds, a bit of luck, and shaking the hell out of the crew.

>>64243743
Vietnam was an unpopular foreign war, this would be an attack on America itself, different scenarios. Think more 9/11 than Gulf of Tonkin.

>>64246903
i wonder if that CO was ever interviewed in depth desu.

>>64246916
At the time there was speculation that Xi ordered Putin to delay his invasion by a couple of weeks so as not to overshadow the Winter Olympics that were being held in China at the time which in turn led to Russia invading when the ground was beginning to thaw and therefore required the use of roads instead of cutting cross-country.

>>64243578
Charlie sheen was ass raped as a child. After all he is in hollywood. Having your whole family killed or being ass raped. Which is worse? You be the judge.

>>64239053
Thought they had him sobered up after he got Trump mad enoguh to station nuclear subs near Russia or whatever that was about

>>64239986
I remember reading a book where the US was so exploiting the thermals so effectively that they all drove past a T-72 that no one noticed because the Iraiqs inside had been snoozing with the engine off.

>>64239471
Most plausible explanation for that type of explosion

>>64249057
For both sides it can also make sense if you can't recover equipment and it's somewhere you aren't sure you'll be able to hold. Either deny them capture/study of your gear, or the chance to repair and reuse their own.

>>64244597
repeated BRATley correction caused the control chip from a washing machine to remember its true purpose

>>64238644
you probably mean just the Marder, the second one was never introduced

>>64242231
ther german Marder is older than the BMP-1 and uses 20mm cannons the other german armoured vehicles who were supposed to fight all had cannons or atgm's.

The armour of the bmp was the quantity in which it was supposed to be deployed.

>>64242157
but pro-ukrainian assassinated charlie kirk

>>64246892
> well into 2010s
Hell, I remember Russians sticking flaming pots on the end of their tank barrels to try and fool javelin seekers in Ukraine. They STILL don’t understand thermals.

>>64249301
The Ukrainians actually have M2 BRAT

I fucking love IFVs bros. I wish I was in a hunter battalion instead of Leo2sg. I wish I was armoured infantry instead of being a shitty recon in a tank battalion. I WANT TRANSPORT DAMN IT FUCK THE BRONCO FUCK THE TANK FUCK IT ALL THE RADIO ESPECIALLY HEAVY PIECE OF SHIT

>>64240965
>Kure Naval Arsenal is being mean to me again! They won't build a Yamato class battleship so I can test the Bradley with 46cm artillery!

>>64248713
Beyond the initial interrogation, the next chance you'd likely have to interview him would have been after the 2003 Iraq invasion. Which could have potentially been tricky given the general chaos of the early occupation and the ensuing insurgency. Iraq was a very dangerious place at the time, and the journalists/scholars willing to brave that had more current stuff to look into than following up a specific tank battle from the last war.

>>64238679
>>64238685
why is russia so incompetent?

>>64240532
you underestimate the intelligence of the average arab. when i was in tunisia with the friends, we decided to talk movie with some locals right when the US was about to invade Irak, they firmly believed the US wouldn't be able to do it because the Iraqian army was the strongest in the region.
you should have seen their face when we told them that the laser pointers, night visions, thermal optics and shit they see in hollywood movies are real and not fiction...

>>64240595

Vyborg is still a Russian possession to this day (sadly). The Finns wrecked them but they were still the ones who ceded territory, not the Russians.

The Finns only temporarily took it back during the Continuation War

>>64238933
The Namer is basically just reusing as many Merkava parts as they can.

>>64243091
You need all those bells and whistles to shoot that shit from far away and GTFO afterwards.
But that is basically why all proposed 6th gen planes are just missile boats that tell drones to do all the rest.

>>64242237
They had barely scraped a stalemate from the jaws of victory against a half-collapsed Iran before this.
People vastly overrated their capabilities on account of that war. The Iraqis always sucked.

>>64238933
realistically speaking Israeli armor will never be more than 25 miles from Israel so a lot of the logistics problems other countries have simply do not apply.

>>64238725
The midwit here is you. You are literally defending retards like Pierre Sprey who genuinely believe the things in that movie that aren't actually satire.

>>64238679
>>64242347
>undertrained crew vs overwhelming aggression
everything on paper says this shouldn't have happened. However, invaders are fighting for land, the invaded are fighting for their lives.

>>64253161
The invaders are fighting to not be demoted to platoon prostitute.

>>64243074
to a reformer, the only thing you ever needed to do was dogfight.
carry fuel?
FUCK that just waste money on drop tanks.
Radar?
TECHNO BULLSHIT designed to waste money.
REAL dogfighters can dodge everything and GUN DOWN everything, kiddo

>>64253245
I have my doubts about how well an 8000 pound plane would perform even in a visual-only dogfight.

>>64253257
This was effectively the same breed of retard that post WW1, after seeing how brutally effective machine guns were at locking down big open fields, maintained that
>"the horse! the well bred horse"
would remain relevant while the "new fangled fads" of machine guns and tanks would fade away.
Fuck Hague apologists, btw.
Being king of the retards doesn't make him any less of one.

>>64244695
I mean they were just dumping rounds on it. I'm honestly not convinced they made targeted shots at the sensors they just fired center of mass and some struck the turret. It's just about probability with that amount of rounds that you'll either penetrate armor, disable optics or the gun by sheer volume.

>>64253308
>I'm honestly not convinced they made targeted shots at the sensors
Dude literally said he was firing at optics cause it works in War Thunder

>>64254518
1) that doesnt work in War Thunder
2) just because he said he did after the fact doesnt mean he actually did

>>64254524
>1) that doesnt work in War Thunder
Hell yeah it does, it's damn near impossible to shoot some faggot autocannoning you cause you can't see shit in gunner view

>>64254524
>that doesnt work in War Thunder
t. hasn't gone beyond 6.0 and had his entire world be reduced to constant flashes and smoke because some nigger in a XM800T is unloading half of his maxed out ammo at his turret

>>64254610
>hasn't gone beyond 6.0
To be fair I have, I just realized that the game begins to completely (opposed to just mostly) fall apart at that stage. Even then, I've found killing Whirbles and Ostwinds pretty easy even if theyre unloading on you

I stick to lowish tier, 4.0-6.0 and main spaa personally. The CAS menace fears me

>>64241890

the average Russian soldier doesn't know that Chernobyl has a radiation problem. you just can't use those idiots as a yardstick for judging a normal person's intellect

>>64254762
>the average Russian soldier doesn't know that Chernobyl has a radiation problem
Quite.

>having a russian spyware on your pc (voluntarly)
gaymers are literal subhumans

>>64254762
Rather, they were told that the radiation problem in and around chernobyl npp were greatly exagerated by nato propagandists. I'm not kidding

>>64243020
She cute

>>64253245
>REAL dogfighters can dodge everything
This aspect of Reformer theology has always stuck out at me as being particularly retarded. An AA gunner only has to get lucky once, while a pilot has to be lucky several dozen times a second.

>>64255202
Thats why you have 9,999 more Blitzfighters piloted by Moral, God-fearing Sgts unlike those techno-boondangle "smart" jets that need a thousand hours of maintenance time and are piloted by egotistical officers that refuse to DO WHAT IS NEEDED and make the air force PROVIDE SUPPORT TO OUR BOYS ON THE GROUND where it's needed

John 3:16
James Bond is real!
1st Tactical Studies Group (Airborne)

>>64238933
Anon, their merkava MBT carries dismounts. Israel does their own thing.

>>64242213
>Like that the enemy CAN in fact attack you in a sandstorm, so you should keep doing the basic soldier stuff like maintain patrols and sentry's that you should have been doing anyway.
It's amazing how often this is a vital factor. Just read Bandit Country and it makes the point that in South Armagh the British regiments that knew how to infantry, and did so religiously, almost never got sniped. Because they were patrolling properly, were supporting each other, moving tactically and were practising good cover and concealment they were either too dangerous to attack or too hard to approach safely.

>>64249359
Only more reason to support Ukraine.

>>64255235
It's fascinating how the Reformers seem to want to Sovietize the US military. The idea that air power only exits to supplement the ground forces is straight out of Warsaw Pact doctrine, unlike the US/NATO which uses air power to systematically dismantle the enemy and then uses the ground forces to roll over the blind, deaf, disorganized mass that's left.

>>64241660
>>64251914
I wonder if I should have tipped my sarcasm with a Tandem shaped charge.

Though will admit I am curious Tunisia tourist anon. Did the subject of Gulf War 1 come up at all? Or were they high enough on 3rd world/arab nationalist propaganda to think that was actually a heroic victory for Saddam?

>>64255366
I think what's kinda confounding is that it wasn't just the demoralized and half starved Iraqi conscripts waiting to surrender who had those problems. But well supplied loyalist Iraqi Republican Guard who'd be willing to fight just short of to the death at times... but who just couldn't be arsed to maintain lookouts/patrols and keep in touch with them by radio?

I think from a western perspective that kind of reasonably high Élan combined with fundamentally dog shit discipline/basic soldiery skills comes off as really bizarre. I think that's why a layfolk over emphasize the technology as being the overwhelming reason behind why things would be so one sided. Cause it's just hard to understand that even the Iraqi elite could have been that bad compared to the Americans.