Thread 40734239

At what point does a tranny gain the right to use their correct pronouns freely? When do they earn that right to refer to themselves correctly?

(Cissiods fuck off, I'm not asking you.)

>>40734239 (OP)
whenever

>>40734239 (OP)
I ask this because I'm unsure if I deserve to call myself a woman yet. I don't think I am, but I'm working on becoming more attractive with skin and haircare. idk if I'll be attractive without ffs, but I might as well try.

the real answer is when she/he is able to do so authentically and naturally, instead of as some
>its MAAM
type cope born out of insecurity and feeling inadequate compared to cis people

a tranny is a woman when she knows herself to be one. and thats not always the same as when she says she is one

>>40734239 (OP)
when you pass and integrate so well that you look in the mirror and even YOU think youre whatever you transitioned to
and i dont mean honfidence, i mean
>holy shit im a woman/man now what the fuck

when you start malefailing or develop such an air about you that people gender you female anyways whether you pass or not, i think

>>40734269
>>40734274
>>40734298
I'm still a man then :(
2 years on hrt and I'm still a man

>>40734331
until very very recently most trannies never reach this state in their entire lives
hang in there

>>40734331
you're not a man but see >>40734269. you've not learned to do the stuff this board always ignores. transition is as much about growth as it is about changing your body. sure one leads to the other often, but you can't just expect hrt or surgery to fix your self image. you need to do a lot of soul searching for that. my advice is to throw yourself into life outside of transition or this board. that is as vital to a passing (to yourself, or to others) as hrt is. you will always see yourself as a man until you've put the work in to love yourself. its tacky but its true. and your self image issues clock you diva

>>40734239 (OP)
I think it varies a lot where different people draw the line. Personally, I'll only do it when enough people authentically see me as a woman. So like trannies she/hering me cuz they know I'm a tranny doesn't count i have to more or less be living as a woman to earn that

>>40734239 (OP)
I MISS BEASTARS GENERALS

>>40734274
so never lol

>>40736887
99% of trannies will never experience this yes
you basically have to start pre-puberty and have good genes and rich supportive parents from day 1 that put you in supportive affirming environments forever
but some people manage it these days

>>40734239 (OP)
immediately when they want

>>40734239 (OP)
ive been stealth for 6 years and never vocally gender myself because it makes me feel like a rapehon

>>40734239 (OP)
I call trannies their pronouns but i don't really actually see them as their identified gender. I just try to be respectful. Because gender is made up bullshit anyway, the only thing that exists is sex. I'm a atheist materialist

>>40737000
i hate materialism so much

>>40737000
lmao wait until you find out about sex being a socially constructed category and that platonic forms aren't real

>>40737000
this is like disbelieving in fairies but still believing in ghosts

>>40734239 (OP)
there are no rights

>>40737105
why? its the only plausible explanation of anything
>>40737133
you can argue anything is not real but thats just mental masturbation
>>40737146
what? its stupid to believe a tranny is a woman if biologically they are a man

>>40737243
this is really basic philosophy, there are no categories that are more or less legitimate than any other fundamentally, there are just categories we use and categories we don't
you can construct the category of woman and female that includes mtfs and vice versa
"biologically" trans women have various traits, some we associate with being male like xy 'zomes and some we associate with being female like ssc and hormone levels
there's no true and objective way to draw lines around collections of atoms

>>40737243
>it's the only plausible explanation of anything
so you admit it's dogma. humans are so limited in what we can perceive that it's pure hubris to claim your understanding is the only plausible one

>>40737283
biologically mtf trannies are male (XY), ill only call intersex people xhe or whatever pronoun they want because they have a legitimate reason and aren't XY or XX

but most of you arent that
>>40737296
it's not dogma lmfao nothing immaterial can be proven true, the word woman means somebody who is biologically female and has XX chromosomes and a tranny isn't that so.. YWNBAW sweaty

>>40737351
you're a mindlet I see, begging the question like that.
words don't have objectively correct or incorrect meanings, meanings are just more or less popular.
can you define biologically male and female? what do you think of women with XY chromosomes that have given birth? nature is a mess, you will not find any perfect order to impose on it.

>>40737243
>>40737351
i am not biologically a man though, if by man you mean adult human male. i started changing my sexed biology before i became an adult. in an honest consistent materialistic worldview i am de facto intersex, made that way through modern medicine

>>40737372
>can you define biologically male and female?
xy chromosome: male
xx chromosome: female

>what do you think of women with XY
i had to google that apparently thats a thing (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) so i would consider them men that developed like women but are still men
>>40737375
no you aren't intersex you're a man who injected himself with artificial hormones (an abomination)

i respect those people way more than you

>>40737414
>i would consider them men
ok so basically everybody else in the world disagrees with you and considers them women
more popular vs less popular definitions of words, yours is unpopular, not wrong or right, just unpopular
I prefer to include people that have literally had kids in the women category

>an abomination
>materialist
you're totally spooked you're not a materialist at all you're just a platonist child

>>40737414
>an abomination
how are you an atheist materialist making a value judgement

>>40737438
>ok so basically everybody else in the world disagrees with you and considers them women
appealing to authority is a fallacy kid

also people with the androgen insensitivity thing can't have kids they don't have wombs
>you're just a platonist child
ugh keep playing with words it doesn't make you any more right

>>40737454
>kid
how old are you boy? there was no appeal to authority there, you are dumb

>also people with the androgen insensitivity thing can't have kids they don't have wombs
there are cases of people with xy chromosomes who have had kids

>ugh keep playing with words it doesn't make you any more right
woOoOOoOOooooooo you are spooked boy, wheels in your head

>>40737445
>how are you an atheist materialist making a value judgement
its called a joke o algo

of course trannies all have AVTISM and can't tell if somebody is being serious or not through text
>>40737465
>how old are you boy? there was no appeal to authority there, you are dumb
i'm 20
>there are cases of people with xy chromosomes who have had kids
if you mean people with that disorder then i want a source

>>40737485
you are a tiny baby
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2190741/
nature is a mess, your map will never be the territory

>>40737485
which parts were jokes? im sorry but when you say half of the transphobic playbook unironically im not gonna know when you're suddenly not serious

>>40737508
wtf

okay that's freaky. but i would still call it a man who can give birth
>>40737514
i'm not actually transphobic i just don't want to be forced to think ur women because ur not and you clearly aren't those 0.0001% exceptions where the line is actually blurred

>>40737485
are you sure you're not the autistic one if you think that was a joke and not just you trying to exclude somebody from a category by saying they're a freak case that shouldn't exist?

>>40737531
Nah i have adhd not autism :3

You dont understand my impeccable metahumor

>>40737528
you can call a halfpenny a crown but it wont spend so well in any store, if you present yourself as a woman and you've given birth people will call you a woman

>>40737528
>im not actually transphobic
but you ARE cissexist :^)
>i just don't want to be forced to think ur women
ive never wanted it to be forced, i hate two faced acceptance almost more than i hate honest hatred

>>40737542
you made a fallacious argument, if they're not an abomination then why aren't they intersex? you were clearly going with some naturalistic argument about what is and isn't meant to be

>>40737548
I reject labeling things by their appearances and not what they actually are
>i hate two faced acceptance almost more than i hate honest hatred
too bad that's the best you're gonna get like us fags
>>40737560
stfu holy shit

>>40734239 (OP)
calling myself a woman was the most natural thing in the world
calling myself a man felt unnatural, abhorrent and painful

>>40737591
>what they actually are
lmao more baseless platonist nonsense, there is no "actually are" when it comes to categories, we draw the lines where we want to
evolution is a great example, where does one species end and another begin? we make groups based on what's easy for us, we arbitrarily split off bees from wasps despite bees being wasps, appearances and behaviours exist
you are dumb, there are no platonic forms, there are no essences that hide inside a thing

>>40737625
don't bring actual advanced biology into this lmao this anon can't take finding out all labels are social construct (so is an appeal to the past btw because the past literally doesn't materially exist anymore)

>>40737625
>evolution is a great example, where does one species end and another begin?
when the animals can breed with each other without much issues or infertility then yes scientists would consider that a same species

Example being, dogs and wolves are considered the same species taxonomically despite looking radically different and they breed basically with no issues
>we arbitrarily split off bees from wasps despite bees being wasps, appearances and behaviours exist
No we didnt because they cant breed with each other and they split off millions of years ago so they are fundamentally different

>>40737676
righteous

>>40737715
>without much issues
scientific!!!!!!!!!! objective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>scientists would consider
lmao, based on what?

>No we didnt because they cant breed with each other and they split off millions of years ago so they are fundamentally different
you are dumb, bees are wasps, we categorise them differently because we wanted to and had been doing so before we knew their evolutionary history
>fundamentally different
how lol, just an arrangement of atoms

>>40737750
>scientific!!!!!!!!!! objective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
okay don't have a tranny meltdown when i actually bring facts in when you don't know anything
>lmao, based on what?
ummmm the fact that that's how a species is typically defined also just because two creatures look similar doesn't mean they are related or the same species

example being a hyena and a dog
>you are dumb, bees are wasps, we categorise them differently because we wanted to and had been doing so before we knew their evolutionary history
bees are not wasps where did you get that? they have a common ancestor but they are both different. i just told you why they are considered different species but ofc you ignored me because then your entire premise would fall apart

>how lol, just an arrangement of atoms
okay everything is an arrangement of atoms whats ur point? we defined words for certain arrangements of atoms then you're just using those words incorrectly

>>40737789
bees are literally wasps lol you cannot make a group of all wasps without including bees. much how you cannot make a group of all apes without including humans

>>40737809
I need a source proving that bees are wasps because you're literally just making shit up atp

Just concede, tranny. Dont make me actually hate trannies, i dont, but youre getting me close to that

>>40737789
>i actually bring facts
you didn't bring any facts you said lol scientists do it when like they have an arbitrary amount of problem fucking
>the fact that that's how a species is typically defined
ah and so that makes it fundamentally true, if that's how it's typically defined, I bet there's no problem with this logic if we look historically at how things were defined
>also just because two creatures look similar doesn't mean they are related or the same species
but it can mean that they *aren't* if they don't look similar, do you think wasps are more related to each other than they are to bees? do you think wasps are one species? what a wasp is has fuck all to do with lineage
>bees are not wasps where did you get that?
do a google mate stop embarrassing yourself, we call some things wasps and some things bees not based on their ability to breed with each other but their behaviours, they did not just split off from wasps in some neat divergence
>we defined words for certain arrangements of atoms
no we don't
>using those words incorrectly
lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

>>40737828
>20 year old idiot decides to hate trannies because he didn't know that evolution is messy and bees are a clade
embarrassing go back to the sharty

ummm I'm 20 years old so I think I understand that species are defined objectively by scientists who use the rigorous criteria given to them by god of 'when they can't fuck good' and that's the fundamentally right criteria to use because reasons

>>40737830
>you didn't bring any facts you said lol scientists do it when like they have an arbitrary amount of problem fucking
bro... screenshot
>ah and so that makes it fundamentally true, if that's how it's typically defined, I bet there's no problem with this logic if we look historically at how things were defined
disproves nothing

> do you think wasps are more related to each other than they are to bees?
yes...? retard
>do you think wasps are one species?
nope! there are multiple layers to taxonomy

For example a typical european honey bee is Apis mellifera, a common wasp is Vespula vulgaris. They are different species but they are part of the order Hymenoptera. They are related but not the same
>do a google mate
i did nothing came up of it you're lying
>we call some things wasps and some things bees not based on their ability to breed with each other but their behaviours, they did not just split off from wasps in some neat divergence
bro you're so fucking retarded holy shit bees cannot be wasps simply because they literally are genetically not the same and are very distantly related. like a cow can't be a wolf just because a cow walks on four legs

>no we don't

goddamn it you're actually making me mad stop. i know you're trolling but stop. a bee being a wasp or not doesn't even have anything to do with your gender

>>40737840
>embarrassing go back to the sharty
i would but its boring and mostly just spam...
>>40737853
you'll never be me, stop.

>>40737876
>a species is often defined
what do you think you're arguing, because "often defined" doesn't exactly support your argument that there is a fundamentally correct way to define the term species, often generally means not always.
>disproves nothing
if the fundamentally correct definition is the one that's popular then how can a definition change over time?

>yes...? retard
omg why wouldn't you google it before you went all in on being so very very wrong, please at least open the wikipedia page on apocrita you silly silly boy
>i did nothing came up of it you're lying
kids today cannot google lmao
do I really have to explain what a clade is to you
do you think a sphecoid wasp is less closely related to a bee than to, say, a fig wasp? the answer may surprise you
>bees cannot be wasps simply because they literally are genetically not the same and are very distantly related
HAHAHAHAHAHA you are so fucking stupid
>a bee being a wasp or not doesn't even have anything to do with your gender
yeah it does, follow the conversation back

the peanut isn't a pea, or a nut

>>40737943
>>a species is often defined
>what do you think you're arguing, because "often defined" doesn't exactly support your argument that there is a fundamentally correct way to define the term species, often generally means not always.
>>disproves nothing
>if the fundamentally correct definition is the one that's popular then how can a definition change over time?
ok ill concede that a species is not strictly defined but bees are defined as not being wasps so your argument falls apart

and i looked into it.. basically anything that is not a bee or an ant in apocrita is a wasp... so a bee cannot be a wasp... even though you're right wasps aren't a clade and don't all have one common ancestor

>yeah it does, follow the conversation back
no it doesn't and

1) you aren't intersex
2) you don't have an androgen disorder
3) you don't have functional female reproductive organs
4) you're a man taking hormones late into life
so no you aren't a woman and a bee isn't a wasp


i'll admit anon you made me read a lot about it because i genuinely wanted to find out if i'm wrong or not and i found that i'm not

>>40738092
>>40737943
ALSO chatgpt said im right with sources

>>40738092
>bees are defined as not being wasps so your argument falls apart
bees are materially wasps though, their exclusion is not due to real biological factors but rather to fit the socially constructed categories that existed before we understood phylogeny..
>taking hormones late into life
i started male puberty around 13/14 and started hrt at 16. i have been on estrogen for over twice as long as ive been on testosterone, i don't think that's late in life and frankly i think that doesn't qualify as a man (adult human male)

>>40738143
>socially constructed categories that existed before we understood phylogeny..
they're not socially constructed, they exist biologically and are proven, now you're just making up stuff anon

so what youre getting at is that if you think two animals are somewhat related and share certain qualities that they are the same.. or that the fact that a bee descends from an ancient wasp (you're right) that bees are wasps... which isn't true. also like you said a wasp isn't a rigid clade and even though the bee descended from a creature which today is called a "wasp" doesn't mean it actually is included among "wasps" today

>qualify as a man (adult human male)
no you biologically are still a male because you have XY maybe SOCIALLY you don't present yourself as a standard depiction of a man but biologically, youre male. i still view that lady who was XY as being male too

I still wouldnt call you a he or a man though irl cause that would make me feel bad because i'm not fully a psychopathic chvd yet... Also idk why i even care i'm a gay man i was actually friends with a ftm tranny IRL a few years ago once

also wow insects are interesting you got me into a rabbit hole.. regretting doing computer science now

>>40734239 (OP)
For me, I felt like I had to earn it. I didn't start using female pronouns, etc, until about 6 months after I started HRT

>>40738249
if you include bees and ants wasps actually are a consistent clade lol. any serious biologist would call them wasps, i was raised by biologists and was pursuing a degree in evolutionary biology for a while. you can't stop being in a clade. you are a lobe finned fish
>you are still biologically a male
if you define sex by chromosomes exclusively. a more materialistic and holistic view is that i am medically induced intersex person with some female secondary sex characteristics and some male secondary and primary sex characteristics. most people can't tell when i have clothes on though.
>wow insects are interesting
they are! so is evolutionary biology generally

>>40738293
>if you include bees and ants wasps actually are a consistent clade lol.
okay yeah
>any serious biologist would call them wasps,
who THOUGH
>i was raised by biologists and was pursuing a degree in evolutionary biology for a while
makes sense that you failed
>you can't stop being in a clade. you are a lobe finned fish
i mean ur right bees evolved from wasps but we don't call them wasps for a reason because they are different in many ways and cant breed THOUGH but yeah if you mean a bee is a wasp as in it evolved from a wasp okay i guess its a wasp but idk like you can't write that in a scientific article

but "wasp" isn't used like the word "ape" like how humans and gorillas are considered apes

also i'm tired of arguing about wasps for 3 hours...
>you are a lobe finned fish
well yeah i mean we kinda descended from picrel so... yeah... weird...

trannies dont “use their pronouns freely”nobody does. other people use your pronouns when referring to you thats how english works. should we force others to use correct pronouns? i dont think that would we should do that. but a better question might be: when should we punish people for misgendering? which i think only in instances where its clear that it has crossed over into to harassment. however this is in context of the government. idc if your work fires you for accidentally misgendering the trannies.

>>40738328
>wasp isn't used like the word ape
because you are familiar with biologists discussing apes and only with laypeople discussing wasps

>>40738357
discuss my nutz

>>40738357
>>40738375
Okay fine i concede bees are wasps IDC ANYMORE what else do you want to discuss

>>40738388
i think that should cover it

>>40738417
i hate you