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Anonymous No.24593112 >>24593230 >>24593242 >>24593553 >>24593914 >>24594179 >>24594927 >>24595049 >>24595158 >>24595167 >>24595712 >>24595773 >>24595776 >>24596702 >>24596743 >>24596950 >>24597023 >>24597261 >>24597439 >>24597894 >>24598015 >>24598576 >>24599552 >>24599750 >>24603879 >>24605462 >>24606309
Any anons read this? My therapist recommended I read it and it’s kind of blowing my mind.
Anonymous No.24593223
I've been thinking about reading it but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Anonymous No.24593230 >>24593267 >>24593299 >>24596024 >>24597991 >>24599776 >>24603126 >>24606309
>>24593112 (OP)
Self-help slop? Your therapist has bad taste. Read Seneca or Plutarch or Cicero, not that garbage.
Anonymous No.24593242 >>24593299
>>24593112 (OP)
I read it. I'm surprised it's blowing your mind, all it told me was more or less what I worked out on my own in high school. You some kind of externalizer?

The only thing new to me was the concept of "who I decided I had to be" to earn love. Fortunately/unfortunately I like that version of myself and I'm keeping it, but the ship has sailed on valuing parental acceptance.
Anonymous No.24593267 >>24593341 >>24597906
>>24593230
Seneca can suck my dick from the back while twirling my nuts. Stoicism is a cuck philosophy made for chuds and closeted queers
Anonymous No.24593299 >>24593391 >>24595051 >>24597018
>>24593230
Have you read it? It’s loaded with clinical research and experience from her own practice.

>>24593242
I just never connected the dots that the fact that they didn’t pursue my interior world and dismissed my anxiety as a child would lead to issues later. I’m an internalizer. The way I relate with my feelings and the hesitancy I have about speaking about them suddenly made sense. I realized I was dismissing my wife in the same way my mom dismissed me.
Anonymous No.24593341 >>24599397
>>24593267
something tells me from your choice of metaphor and words that in fact are a closeted queer aka faggot so i guess i'll just have to take your word for it!
Anonymous No.24593391 >>24593429 >>24597018 >>24597915 >>24609187
>>24593299
I get it dude. You adapt to a situation and don't realize it's odd. Does it change how you feel about your mom? For me I just about always knew the way my dad treated us was unacceptable, but it took me way longer to figure out that my mom and sister were functionally important in maintaining that dynamic. Now I feel sorrier for my sister (but we're still a little distant), and more and am more disgusted with my mother (but still love her, she really was the only one who tried to treat me like I mattered, she's just not willing to do anything difficult), but these are things I'd been reckoning with for many years. I'm sure it's different to get perspective checked by a book.
Anonymous No.24593429 >>24593522 >>24594196 >>24609187
>>24593391
I actually feel like I have more empathy for my mom now. My mom had to compete for affection from her mentally ill mother. I was a sensitive, intellectually curious but extremely anxious child and she didn’t really have the bandwidth to understand me. She would tell me that “I just liked worrying” because it broke her sense of safety to actually get to understand what I was thinking. I also had an instant where I was nearly sexually abused by a stranger and for weeks afterward the event played back in my head. There was no debriefing about what had happened, no one explained any thing. Instead I just spiraled inward and suffered from anxiety and depersonalization for years. I did well for about a decade being away from home but recent marital issues have brought everything back and I’m realizing the way I cope with things is unhealthy and not normal due to how I was raised.


I don’t blame either of my parents. They were doing what they could but I feel like I’m in new skin to some degree. I needed intimacy and to know my parents understood my inner turmoil or were at least trying to understand but it wasn’t something they could grasp. Just so bizarre this is all popping up now that I’m in my 30s
Anonymous No.24593522 >>24593568
>>24593429
It's okay to make these realizations when they allow themselves to be known, anon. The age does not matter.

These are skills like any other. If you've demonstrated competency in any other part of your life, then you can do it here.

If you haven't spoken with your therapist about it yet, talk to them about whether they practice acceptance commitment therapy.
Anonymous No.24593553 >>24594196 >>24600052 >>24606244
>>24593112 (OP)
>immature parents
That’s basically every parent born in the past century.
Anonymous No.24593568
>>24593522
Thanks for the kind words. I'll bring it up. The depersonalization has been really tough lately.
Anonymous No.24593914
>>24593112 (OP)
Complex PTSD by Pete Walker
Anonymous No.24594179
>>24593112 (OP)
Yes. It's a great book and explained my upbringing. It's a quick read too so I'd just read it and see for yourself. I've forgotten most of it but it me described me well.
Anonymous No.24594196 >>24595519 >>24596691 >>24597121 >>24599367 >>24603149 >>24605454 >>24606557 >>24609187
>>24593429
>I don’t blame either of my parents. They were doing what they could but I feel like I’m in new skin to some degree. I needed intimacy and to know my parents understood my inner turmoil or were at least trying to understand but it wasn’t something they could grasp. Just so bizarre this is all popping up now that I’m in my 30s
>>24593553
>>immature parents
>That’s basically every parent born in the past century.
I do think it's worth just flatly stating that I think these two are related. ALL of my friends (I'm 29) describe parents that are emotionally zombies, bar one or two exceptions, with mixtures of unhealed trauma, total worship of capitalism, rabid politicking, and or a godlessness that bleeds into every area of their life. One thing that's really interesting, is that they've shown trauma heals in collective ritual and so I wonder if our parents didn't heal because they largely abandoned churches and community. Moreover, they also don't tell their kids this but they were TV zombies, watching 2-5 hours a day, and often being exposed to porn and not preventing their children from being. My parent's generation is a generation that confuses me; they often seem stuck in rutts, highly emotionally sensitive without intellectual nuance to back it up, and also often politically emotional and personally dead. I think this, "My parents couldn't handle an emotional child." Just shows how broken our culture is that we accept this; what I mean to say is that God gives parents what they need to handle their children and many fail. I have NEVER seen advice for raising children that isn't just, "Love them more." People get raised like dogs that go to college. I have seen very devout Catholics raise their children when they recognize that God is the primary parent and they are fellow pilgrims with their children, over whom they have authority over temporarily. Otherwise, it's an odd mixture of projection, confusion, half-lied about obligations, stagnant personalities with neither hobbies nor learnings that aren't what CNN says, and a particular form of godlessness and indifference to religion that I find particularly disheartening.
Anonymous No.24594219
>My therapist
Anonymous No.24594927
>>24593112 (OP)
I gave it to my parents to read as a pdf and my dad just ignored it . My mom did too and started listening to chinese slop audiobooks. Somethings just write themselves, hopefully I can move out. Hopefully.
Anonymous No.24595049
>>24593112 (OP)
I read like 5 pages then started feeling sad and stopped
Anonymous No.24595051
>>24593299
You dont get it. On this board anything that is even self help adjacent is slop. No matter how science backed.
Anonymous No.24595128 >>24595145
I was interested in reading it, but i've already figured out my dads bullshit and hate him already, i'm concerned it will make it worse.
Anonymous No.24595145 >>24595161
>>24595128
I think it’s worth reading. It will explain a lot about how you feel and provide suggestions on how to deal with both your feelings and your father
Anonymous No.24595158
>>24593112 (OP)
Nah. My parents were reasonably mature. They had a few retarded blindspots but on the whole they were pretty adult.
Anonymous No.24595161
>>24595145
Alright. I'll pirate it and chip away at it.
Anonymous No.24595167
>>24593112 (OP)
>boomers

There are a number of shrinks with QRDs on that personality 'style' and their behavioral templates, strategies ... it's their problem and they will not change without stonewalling and rubbing their faces repeatedly through sheer repetition to the point that they get that you're not a doormat or stage prop or shiny token to show other people.
Anonymous No.24595519 >>24606366
>>24594196
>do think it's worth just flatly stating that I think these two are related. ALL of my friends (I'm 29) describe parents that are emotionally zombies, bar one or two exceptions, with mixtures of unhealed trauma, total worship of capitalism, rabid politicking, and or a godlessness that bleeds into every area of their life. One thing that's really interesting, is that they've shown trauma heals in collective ritual and so I wonder if our parents didn't heal because they largely abandoned churches and community.
Apt and true. I appreciate and agree with your testimony. And those whose parents ARE doing well? They have social networks, no addictions, high paying respected jobs some hard some easy. But they were present as well, I had a work states away father. When around? Drunk and angry at whatever the school told him. And at Giants football. Loser. Obese friendless former drunk now his drug of choice is TV and hating Trump.
Anonymous No.24595525 >>24595614
The Emotional Parent section seemed relevant to my mother. Suicide threats, unhinged behavior, inability to resolve disputes like an adult, and the child who learns to please others and allow them to treat them like shit rather than risk upsetting the other person.
Anonymous No.24595614 >>24596033
>>24595525
Same and the book really owned the shit out of me when I in good faith tried the fill-in-the-blank and writing exercise about fantasies and roles only to read the internalizer description and have it be basically exactly what I wrote.
Anonymous No.24595712 >>24595768 >>24596701 >>24598627
>>24593112 (OP)
While I kind of made peace with my past and accepted that my parents can't and won't change or really offer any sort of help or guidance in my life, I keep asking myself what is this supposed to mean for myself for when I try to enter a relationship with a woman. Or just really any form of intimacy. Especially when earworms like "sensual and reproductive mate" or "easy access French pussy" play in my mind over and over again.

It's honestly a weird and sickly feeling because with the way the situation tells me, most normies just call me insane or batshit if I try and tell them about my family life and how it's made me turn out because of how much baggage it carries. But even then, considering they raised me in a catholic school environment while being lukewarm themselves and fumbling their marriage because they never really thought on the sex themselves still makes me think they were setting me up for failure by making me so unaware and stupid about sex that they'd rather just isolate me from that subject entirely because they'd think it'd leave the wrong impression on me.

All of this aside, especially when given the covid vaccines, it just tells me that the emotional zombification of my family leaves me having to figure everything out myself. People don't realize how difficult it is for you to care and love people when you have to think about things like drugs, weed, alcohol, broken condoms, STDs, religion, etc. In a world that is completely oblivious to or unaware of the ramifications of them. Especially when you grew up isolated from those subjects entirely.

I might as well be raised by reptiles than by people. It's always me against the world because my parents are too stupid to really understand or give a shit on what I have to say. Leaving me to run the gamut of just feeling like I'm punching myself in the face when talking to people online.
Anonymous No.24595768
>>24595712
At least there's on realization for you. You don't have to try to pretend or try to love or find love for when you find what is it you need. It's near-instantaneous.
Anonymous No.24595773
>>24593112 (OP)
ill build my perfect family, my wife will be my mother, her sisters mine (to fuk) and all the rest, biological or through androids
Anonymous No.24595776 >>24595878
>>24593112 (OP)
>My therapist recommended
thats hilarious,and you read it too XD
Anonymous No.24595878 >>24595901
>>24595776
If more people went to therapy there would be happier people in the world and less issues. You just have to find the right one. Boomers tend to be bad therapists. I’ve seen two boomer therapists and both were completely inept and out of loop with the current literature and clinical practice.
Anonymous No.24595901 >>24595920
>>24595878
What is the current literature? We have long waiting lists here and sometimes they suck so reading could be useful.
Anonymous No.24595920 >>24595936 >>24599367
>>24595901
Depends on the issue. I’d recommend looking up a specific therapy approach and seeing what is trending. CBT, Psychodynamic, Gestalt
Anonymous No.24595936
>>24595920
Will do.
Anonymous No.24595943 >>24595992
>>24595942
I feel you.
Anonymous No.24595992 >>24595994
>>24595943
What did he post?
Anonymous No.24595994
>>24595992
you can check archives but if its how i feel in general, probably something along the lines of how its only really possible to be happy if you become god, and the harder we try the more unsatisfied and hopeless it feels
Anonymous No.24596024 >>24605500
>>24593230
It's funny how everything aimed at self improvement, which in itself is a reasonable goal, gets such a violent reaction from people

Also name one thing that Plutarch would help here. These are men of extaordinary tasks, happiness and quality life are forsaken in those scenarios - one hardly has time to consider them. Their goals are beyond themselves. Modernity is a different condition. The internal domain of the human being has grown to a point that the quality of individuality as we know it almost isn't even characteristic of people in the classical era. We are left to reflect, and give better accounts of the likes of depression than a surging of Saturn or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with self-help. You at least need some criteria to distinguish what among the genre is actually "slop." As it stands you're just bullshitting about an area in which you lack knowledge, so no, Seneca and Cicero would not be proud of you at all.
Anonymous No.24596033
>>24595614
I'll have to check those out, thanks Anon
Anonymous No.24596691 >>24597121 >>24603159 >>24605454
>>24594196
I think you're onto something. They internalized the sort of consumer atheism that was circulating around the time of their youth and didn't dive deeper. I think when I brought up existential questions as a child or aspects of my own mind that scared me they weren't ready to take that on themselves so they told me "I overthink everything" and then that later became "I liked worrying." I just stopped bringing them my concerns because I knew they wouldn't or couldn't listen. I'm realizing now that I think the role self I developed is actually this detached, depersonalized self I feel now because it's the person who is stoic and doesn't feel anything, but internally I'm going crazy.

My parents are good people and I love them. I've learned that there are certain things that they're not useful to talk to about. I think they are on the milder end of emotional immaturity. However, I think almost all boomers somehow land in this category, like you mentioned.
Anonymous No.24596701
>>24595712
I sort of concur. I had completely unmonitored internet access and started watching porn early. My parents never talked to me about sex or relationships. They told me I shouldn't have sex before marriage but if I do to use a condom. That was basically it. They didn't talk to me about the emotional ramp up of a relationship that might eventually lead to sex. I really wanted a girlfriend that was going to hear me and listen to me. I learned early on that love was the only thing that breaks people out of their own subjective loneliness and makes life tolerable. I of course, never told my parents this, but I internalized it and I think I expected too much out of girls i was chasing at the time.
Anonymous No.24596702 >>24596718
>>24593112 (OP)
I could read this if only for my mom. My dads fine though. Why is it only the women in my family that are headcases?
Anonymous No.24596718
>>24596702
It's also probably because you spent more time with your mother and there are some innate attachment things that occur in infancy that depend entirely on the mother.
Anonymous No.24596743 >>24596774
>>24593112 (OP)
Read "The Body Keeps The Score" instead.
Anonymous No.24596774
>>24596743
Your mother's body is part of everyone's score
Anonymous No.24596910
I've already developed past the stage of blaming my parents for my own shortcomings.
Anonymous No.24596950
>>24593112 (OP)
Blame your parents.
Anonymous No.24597018
>>24593299
>>24593391
Are you me, anons?
Anonymous No.24597023 >>24597334 >>24598580 >>24599367
>>24593112 (OP)
>blame your parents for everything
>dont cut them out of your life completely
You're doing it wrong. Anyone who complains about mommy and daddy after 18 is retarded.
Anonymous No.24597121
>>24594196
>>24596691
I feel like the cultural and social background to this is in Christopher Lasch's The Culture of Narcissism.
Anonymous No.24597261 >>24599997
>>24593112 (OP)
The biggest mental illness on this website is peterpanism thoughtbeit.
Anonymous No.24597334
>>24597023
>Anyone who complains about mommy and daddy after 18 is retarded
If one is retarded it is mommy’s and daddy’s fault; don’t you think? Those who aren’t logical and can’t think ain’t suppose to blame their parents for their inability to think, since they were in their parent’s care as indefensible children?
Anonymous No.24597439
>>24593112 (OP)
>emotionally immature
literally no such definable thing, trying to do human psychology without classical virtue ethics is for subhumans
Anonymous No.24597894
>>24593112 (OP)
i dont read foid shit
Anonymous No.24597906
>>24593267
>i bet you wanna [detailed description of a homosexual encounter, bordering on eroticism], dont you, you QUEER?
Anonymous No.24597915
>>24593391
Pretty similar situation, my sister is bpd psycho and neither my mom or my dad got her the help she needed. And my sister in adulthood also is not trying to get help, I just eventually settled on them all being pathetic and have gone my own way for the past decade. I’ve also extend my frustration to my grandparents who gave way to these circumstances, nobody escapes. I’m taking my time getting a strong base setup and hope to build a better family one day. I don’t care for all that “tried their best” cope, people either learn and perform or they don’t. We don’t have need for people who don’t, the reality is they didn’t try hard enough and they didn’t care enough.
Anonymous No.24597991 >>24598135
>>24593230
>recommending a stoic
>calling anything else slop
Anonymous No.24598015 >>24598028 >>24598036 >>24598533
>>24593112 (OP)
Anybody else deal with the distant dad and emotionally-codependent mom combo? That, plus finding this site during the 2016 election when I was a teenager (I'm currently in my early twenties), definitely fucked me up.
Anonymous No.24598028 >>24598036
>>24598015
Nah distant lying cheating dad and emotionally distant mother who tended to play the victim and use me as confidant and corroborate to lie about small things constantly. But I guess I feel you
Anonymous No.24598036
>>24598015
>distant dad and emotionally-codependent mom combo
This is more common than not at this point, not only in US, but also in Europe, Africa, East Asia, South-East Asia, etc. I blame the TV.

>>24598028
This is just a variant of the above.
Anonymous No.24598135
>>24597991
Don’t worry. He didn’t read that either
Anonymous No.24598533 >>24598583
>>24598015
>I'm currently in my early twenties
As someone who's pushing 30 and was in the same situation, realize that your parents' behavior will likely get worse as they age, and be prepared to stand up for yourself.
I was basically raised to be a pet for my mom because she's too narcissistic to maintain normal relationships with adults (including my dad). When I got a real job after college and moved away she treated me like a betrayer for wanting to live my own life instead of staying at home as a butler-husband-son forever.
Anonymous No.24598576 >>24598618 >>24598802 >>24605540
>>24593112 (OP)
This book does a good job of categorizing but goes way too soft on the internalizers. Gibson asserts the need for self-awareness but speaks to an idealized reader, a martyr identity that when taken on by readers lacking in self-awareness themselves risks excusing antisocial behavior. I don’t necessarily blame Gibson, as she clearly didn’t want to inspire guilt in what by her estimation are already unjustly guilt-ridden people, but there’s a clear line from this book to people complaining to their roommates about emotional labor, for example. The book mentions off-hand things like internalizers turning to escapism, internalizers having impossibly idealized expectations of behavior from others, and internalizers holding deep, silent resentment against the people in their lives, but puts way more words toward warning the imagined internalizer reader that they’re likely being exploited or victimized by others. Like all therapy it’s a toolset that can and absolutely does get misused, and the book really could have used more invitations for the reader to reflect on how their childhood-influenced behaviors affects the way they treat people in their adult lives. Blaming your parents is a step but once you ice them out you’re still the person they made you.

Also it’s nuts that it recommends you print out multiple copies of one of the exercises and carry them around so you can diagnose everyone in your life’s emotional immaturity. Perfect example of the neurotic behaviors this book can inspire in the wrong reader.
Anonymous No.24598580
>>24597023
>I broke your legs and here you are, 2 days later, still complaining you can't walk properly because of me!
Anonymous No.24598583 >>24605544
>>24598533
>I was basically raised to be a pet for my mom because she's too narcissistic to maintain normal relationships with adults (including my dad).
So real.
>When I got a real job after college and moved away she treated me like a betrayer for wanting to live my own life instead of staying at home as a butler-husband-son forever.
I didn't launch, so can't relate, but if I did I imagine it would be exactly that.
Anonymous No.24598618 >>24599248 >>24599315 >>24599367 >>24599718
>>24598576
>the book really could have used more invitations for the reader to reflect on how their childhood-influenced behaviors affects the way they treat people in their adult lives.

This is so true. It lionizes internalizers too much and basically treat externalizers as retards. A tactful chapter analyzing how internalizers may sabotage and mistreat people in their own lives would have been apt.


I also started reading Christopher Lasch’s “A Culture of Narcissism” after this and found it to be a fitting adjunct to this in certain aspects. The way that therapy has become an anti-religion used by certain people to gratify their immediate needs instead of appropriately accepting sacrifice for others is something overlooked by therapists I imagine. They spend so much time talking about how to make their patients feel better, a worthy cause, but they often forget the fact that part of being human is accepting sacrifice and in fact society depends upon it. If everyone was just icing out everyone all the time because their therapist told them to there would be no social interactions. It’s all about measure. Therapy without maintaining personal agency and responsibility quickly can become appeasement


I think therapy is generally a good thing but it probably has to be balanced
Anonymous No.24598627
>>24595712
Why FRENCH pussy specifically
Anonymous No.24598802 >>24598940 >>24599367
>>24598576
Hard agree. I read the first half as my wife's family are all completely emotionally immature and walked away with the feeling that this book is only meant to validate the feelings and behaviours of children with immature parents, rather than giving them any real insight into they may be acting in maladaptive ways and methods to correct them. By the book's own logic, the people raised by immature parents reading it will be too emotionally unequipped to engage in the kind of self-criticism and introspection to glean any insight into how to be better people and will probably see its findings as some black and white "my parents were actually evil but I'm an innocent victim (even though I now replicate these strategies in my own personal life)"
Anonymous No.24598940 >>24599777
>>24598802
I framed my post around potential misuse of the book but you nailed the disappointment that led me there. By Gibson’s framework I have an “emotional” (alcoholic) Mother who in childhood required I shut out any emotional response to her mistreatment or see her use it as a reason to abuse the whole family or herself. Predictably I’m an internalizer who struggles to communicate my needs and easily succumbs to the requests others. Using this book that’s about as deep as the analysis is going to get, but what’s needed is an addressing of how the internalizer pathology has made me emotionally immature. I know, for example, that I respond very negatively to other peoples’ showings of emotion (including positive ones) because of this hardening and it has negatively impacted my ability to feel connected to others. This behavior makes me more likely to abuse or withdraw than be abused. No interaction or lack of interaction with my mother will solve this, it requires unpleasant introspection. What’s in the book is solid enough, especially for adult still beholden to their parents, but it’s sorely missing the medicine after the sugar.
Anonymous No.24599248 >>24599297 >>24599315 >>24603378 >>24606043
>>24598618
>anti-religion used by certain people to gratify their immediate needs instead of appropriately accepting sacrifice for others
So my symptoms are caused by the fact that I had to sacrifice myself for my mother, and the cure is to sacrifice myself even more, this time for strangers? Congratulations you're a retard. If I was a "reactive dog" from a shelter, I would've been excused and pampered ("he's aggresive because he was abused"), but because I'm a human instead (male human specifically), I don't deserve anything, except to keep sacrificing my dignity (which I don't even have anymore because I was deprived of it in the first place). I'd rather just jack off all day, kill myself, or, in the best case scenario, indulge in some acts of revengful ultraviolence.
Anonymous No.24599297 >>24599306
>>24599248
Maybe I misconstrued Lasch's argument. He doesn't suggest putting yourself out for people who step on you. He's saying that in some cases therapy enables people in behaviors that shouldn't be enabled.
Anonymous No.24599306
>>24599297
>He doesn't suggest putting yourself out for people who step on you.
I didn't mean sacrificing for people who step on me, I meant sacrificing in general. I don't have anything more to give, I'm (emotionally) broke. In many cases when other people hurt you, you can file a civil suit and win monetary compensation, but if you suffered emotional abuse, all you get is
>just try more harder bro and don't dare expect nothing in return bro!
Anonymous No.24599310 >>24607258
What does emotionally immature mean
Anonymous No.24599315 >>24599324 >>24603188
>>24599248
Nta, but this doesn't sound like the self-sacrifice >>24598618 is talking about. The self-sacrifice you're speaking of w/r/t yourself sounds more like ego withdrawal as a defense mechanism, whereas I took that other anon to be talking about the kind of self-sacrifice necessary for healthy sociality. He's practically quoting Lasch, but here's Lasch himself:

>Therapy constitutes an antirelgion, not always to be sure because it adheres to rational explanation or scientific methods of healing, as its practitioners would have us believe, but because modem society "has no future" and therefore gives no thought to anything beyond its immediate needs. Even when therapists speak of the need for "meaning" and "love," they define love and meaning simply as the fulfillment of the patient's emotional requirements. It hardly occurs to them—nor is there any reason why it should, given the nature of the therapeutic enterprise-—to encourage the subject to subordinate his needs and interests to those of others, to someone or some cause or tradition outside himself. "Love" as self-sacrifice or self-abasement, ''meaning" as submission to a higher loyalty—these sublimations strike the therapeutic sensibility as intolerably oppressive, offensive to common sense and injurious to personal health and well-being. To liberate humanity from such outmoded ideas of love and duty has become the mission of the post-Freudian therapies and particularly of their converts and popularizers, for whom mental health means the overthrow of inhibitions and the immediate gratification of every impulse.

That is, the kind of self-sacrifice expected isn't a demand for the total diminishment of the ego, but that which is necessary to either see another as another (if you want love, neither you nor they can simply take and take without giving of yourselves; and keep in mind that *this is lacking in the parents discussed in this thread*), or to be genuinely productive and responsible (since any activity you throw yourself into by necessity requires sacrifices in order to git gud t it or attain expertise or develop skill, and proper responsibility means holding oneself to account within measure).

The harshness of your response comes from the defense mechanisms you've developed to deal with your mother, it's not a measured or healthy response. I hope you become cognizant of that as the impediment standing in your way.
Anonymous No.24599324 >>24599342 >>24599358
>>24599315
>encourage the subject to subordinate his needs and interests to those of others, to someone or some cause or tradition outside himself
How do you expect someone who was betrayed by every element of society, including his *closest* relatives (parents) to still have it in him to sacrifice himself for others or some "cause outside himself"? The therapists are right actually - you should become a completely self-indulgent egotistic asshole, as a betrayed-abused person you deserve that, as compensation.

Let me repeat myself:
>If I was a "reactive dog" from a shelter, I would've been excused and pampered ("he's aggresive because he was abused"), but because I'm a human instead (male human specifically), I don't deserve anything.

Nobody tells abused dogs that they need to "subordinate their needs" for others. We only tell that to human males.
Anonymous No.24599342 >>24599349
>>24599324
While you are healing I don't think anyone is asking you to sacrifice. You need to heal first and it's okay to focus on you, but healthy relationships do require some level of self sacrifice and flexibility, or as the other anon pointed out, submission to a new order, rules or religion for the sake of understanding, improvement or initiation.
Anonymous No.24599349 >>24599351 >>24600060 >>24600068
>>24599342
There is no healing. It's a term that exists only on paper. Psychotherapy can change your behavior and thinking, but it can't change your emotions, ergo all it can do is transform you from a low-functioning depressive, into a high-functioning depressive, but it won't allow you to feel better - for that you need genuine unconditional love (IMPORTANT it must be love UP FRONT, not something you receive in exchange for being a good boy), which is pretty much a lottery, with similarly abysmal chances of winning.
Anonymous No.24599351 >>24599370
>>24599349
I love you Anon.
Anonymous No.24599356 >>24599361
I read this book a few weeks ago and shortly after finishing it I had a dream where I found out my brother ratted on me for talking about her in therapy and perhaps mentioning she might have dismissed me/been emotionally immature. She was defensive and angry and in the dream I cried and yelled "why couldn't you just listen to me?".

Is this a break through? I actually feel worse.
Anonymous No.24599358 >>24599370 >>24603188
>>24599324
>The therapists are right actually - you should become a completely self-indulgent egotistic asshole, as a betrayed-abused person you deserve that, as compensation.
So, perpetuate the situation by becoming like your mother? What do you gain from that if you're more or less doing that already and miserable? No one said change happens overnight, and Lasch isn't suggesting that he expects immediate miracles, but his point is correct. Do you want to love and be loved in return? That only comes with self-sacrifice of the kind Lasch and that anon are talking about.

I don't see what your other alternative is. Thank your mother for turning you into an Narcissist?

And it's not as if I'm trying to speak out of turn. This thread caught my eye because that book in OP (which I haven't read yet) looks to describe my own experiences with my parents. I'm probably older than you, and I can tell you that if you don't even make teeny tiny steps toward the change necessary, toward letting this go, you'll only be in a deeper and deeper hole. And it won't be that you'll be satisfied as an egoist, you'll long for what's currently lacking more and more painfully the whole time you're jackin' it.
Anonymous No.24599361 >>24599366
>>24599356
Probably a not bad first step. You still need to mourn properly what it was before you can move on.
Anonymous No.24599366 >>24599383
>>24599361
It's dawning on me that I don't know how to mourn or grieve. I know how to ruminate, spiral and detach. I have to be honest, I really didn't anticipate therapy to be this painful and difficult. I half didn't believe it. I thought you just went and talked to some schmuck and they made you feel better. I cannot believe what's happening to me.
Anonymous No.24599367 >>24605997
>>24594196
Burned out deadbeat genxers are what you get when you take the boomer mindset and lifestyle but take away the postwar economic miracle that masked its pitfalls. Throw in lead from gasoline and toys and you've got a generation of broken children.

I don't see this getting any better in the future. I teach and last semester my admin told us to "embrace" AI in the classroom, which amounts to letting them use chatgpt at every turn. Surprise surprise that when the test comes around tons fail, even the good and intellectually curious ones. We're basically confronting every student with two options: you either do the tedious grunt work of learning for the chance to get an A, or you basically get a shot of heroin that also happens to give you an A.

I don't mean to get too off topic, but I just see this sort of ethos all over the place, for example with so many of our parents being glued to the TV as you point out, or most of my friends in legal states being massive stoners.

The religious perspective is interesting too. I know so many people around my parent's age who turn their religion on and off at will, especially when it gets in the way of their paycheck. And then they're shocked when their kids don't believe, and the only way they know how to deal with the situation is power or guilt trip which results in them getting cut off.

>>24595920
My feeling is that most people on /lit/ are introspective enough to outsmart the mainstream alphabet soup of therapies: CBT, ACT, DBT and all. But in some sense it doesn't really matter because they all have somewhat middling response rates in aggregate. The biggest determinant is the practitioner, so ask around and maybe try a few out.

>>24597023
There are good and bad ways to go about it. Whenever something gets popularized the majority of people get the half-baked version then fuck it up. Last decade it was social justice and this decade it's mental health.

>>24598802
>>24598618
These posts remind me that there's a big problem in the therapeutic tradition going back to Freud where therapists assume that just by making connections and having insights, healing will occur. This has only become less true as more and more people get therapized and these insights serve as an infohazard through which the patient persists in their toxic behaviors
Anonymous No.24599370 >>24599427 >>24599675 >>24599725 >>24603208 >>24603243 >>24603266 >>24606043 >>24606506 >>24607910 >>24609164
>>24599351
One of the things that make me puke at the thought of trying to reintroduce myself into society, is that people are generally liars. What do you think is the impact of telling someone you never met, you don't know nothing about, that you love them? Words are cheap. I guess it's my fault for neglecting to stress that, on top of being unconditional and up-front, love has to be GENUINE. Imagine thinking you can compensate for completely lacking maternal love throughout formative years by saying a few empty words. Reminds me of that roman soldier who gave a dying Jesus on the cross some wine, like it's going to make him feel better.

>>24599358
It must be recognized that there are situations in life which are tragic and unescapable. As a reducto ad absurdium, there are children in Gaza who have been alive for just a few seconds before a bomb has dropped right on top of the hospital. Would you tell them that it's their fault for dying, because they haven't done anything to improve their situation?

The correct behavior towards someone who has been severy abused emotionally (or in any other way) as a child, is pure, selfless, unconditional compassion, the kind of compassion received by a scared, abused dog. But that never happens - for human males there are only demands, demands, demands.

People who, for whatever reason, lost all their money can in many cases receive some kind of hardship allowance, so that, in principle, they can use that to dig themselves out of a hole. But there is no "emotional allowance", unless you are dog, or in some cases, a woman.
Anonymous No.24599383 >>24599390 >>24599396
>>24599366
This might sound silly, but consider developing some private ritual, one-off or over some period (not too long), that helps you to work out what we could call the mourning or grieving process. A kind of societal problem we have atm is that we've begun removing or outmoding rituals like the sort devoted to mourning, where you do x, y, z, over some period of time, and then, voila, you're done and move on to the next part of life.

Like, maybe hold a "funeral" for your mother, light some candles, do a reading or prepare a speech, burn some pictures or effects, I don't know, just some ritual that formalizes it and makes it acceptable for you to confront it in a way.
Anonymous No.24599390
>>24599383
Funerals are necessarily a group activity. Another example of the fact that people suffering emotional abuse are given only demands, not help
>just be the only one at your own funeral, bro!
Anonymous No.24599396
>>24599383
Interesting. Might do something like this. I love my mom and we actually have a pretty good relationship and I want to continue that relationship. I just know there are somethings about me she can't understand. My mother is the "driven" type described in the book and is relatively mild on the spectrum. I still feel bad that maybe I'm ascribing an unnecessary or cruel label to her and needlessly villainizing her but I do think her dismissal of my fears as a kid and no follow up on a SA-ish event by a stranger fucked me up.

I had carved out a role for myself that I was pretty happy with, but the recent news of my wife's infertility has added new complexity. I went to therapy thinking I could get some insight into the adoption process and make sure I was ready to adopt and I'm realizing I should not be adopting at this juncture because I still have to figure myself out.
Anonymous No.24599397
>>24593341
Yeah that’s why I’m a stoic
Anonymous No.24599427 >>24599440 >>24603188 >>24605555
>>24599370
>Would you tell them that it's their fault for dying, because they haven't done anything to improve their situation?
No, but terrible shit happens to lots of people all over every day since the beginning of human history.

Consider: I had two friends who both died of cancer in their twenties, a guy and a girl. The guy was kind, studious, polite, well-liked and respected, came from a caring family. When he got cancer, he took it on the chin--at first. Pretty quickly after that, when it looked to be terminal, his whole personality flipped. Now he was resentful and raging that he never did drugs, never partied hard, never got his dick wet, and he wanted (in his words) to rub everyone else's noses in his misery. The girl, on the other hand, having come from an exceptionally difficult Catholic family (the kind where the father demands that the ladies not speak in his presence and likes using a belt as a disciplinary device), got cancer, and went from being rebellious and angry to almost overnight making peace with her fate. Her cancer went into remission...and then came back. But it didn't matter to her. She never had an unkind word about anyone after her first diagnosis, and she joked and enjoyed her time with us, her friends, during her last year.

Who died the better death? Who went out the way they wanted? Who do you think is remembered better by anyone remaining?

>But that never happens - for human males there are only demands, demands, demands.
Sure, but the basic demand for men is to be men. That's not to dismiss that society has made a bunch of turns the last century to relegate us to the dustbin, but do you want to be a helpless scared child, or do you want to be a man, a man capable of taking on the world on your own terms? Mind, that expectation isn't so different from things even 2,500 years ago, as Greek and Roman writings show us, women had outlets that men didn't, and that remains the case. But you're here on the /lit/ board--surely there's something here that interests you, like writing, or reading, which can be a springboard to healthy outlets, right?
Anonymous No.24599440 >>24599453
>>24599427
LMAO, imagine making demands on someone dying from cancer! Imagine chastizing someone dying from a terrible disease that they are not graceful enough in their suffering!!!

If I had a friend who became bitter as a consequence of terminal cancer, I would allow him freely to be bitter in my presence, I would "tank" the negativity with the understanding that I am in a more comfortable position, and because of that I can temporarily handle a higher-than-usual amount of negativity.

>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.
>From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Holy fuck, if there is ONE thing I am grateful for in life, is that I am not as retarded as you.
Anonymous No.24599453 >>24599468
>>24599440
This is an evasion. No one demanded that my guy friend be such and such a way, but he actively made things more difficult for everyone by making it harder by flipping and being an asshole towards and everyone and pushing people away. All of that circle feels much more ambivalent and embittered about his death because he made it into a narcissistic experience, as though, because he was dying, though through no fault of his own, everyone needed to toss out their lives for him while he was still being miserable.

>Holy fuck, if there is ONE thing I am grateful for in life, is that I am not as retarded as you.
All due respect dude, but you're your own worst enemy right now. You can't mope while declaring that you ought to live the life of a selfish sensualist. You aren't owed respect, sympathy, and love just by virtue of existing, and you won't even be at the beginning stages of moving on until you see that.
Anonymous No.24599468 >>24599495 >>24599771 >>24600003 >>24600282
>>24599453
People who have excess of money, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of money.
This is universally accepted, as reflected in uncountable social programs to give money to those in need (EBT cards etc.), as well as voluntary charity given in millions of dollars.

People who have excess of emotional support, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of emotional support.
This is universally REJECTED, as reflected in the fact, that even people in DESPERATELY SAD positions like those DYING FROM CANCER are being thrown demands, instead of support. Abbhorent.

>All of that circle feels much more ambivalent and embittered about his death because he made it into a narcissistic experience
Absolutely disgusting sentence, what a terrible day to be literate. Be charitable enough to forget about that guy so he can finally rest in peace, without being judged from the other side of the curtain, by some narcissistic faggot who thinks that terminally ill people owe him sacrifice.
Anonymous No.24599495 >>24599504 >>24599534
>>24599468
>People who have excess of emotional support, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of emotional support.
To disabuse you, quite frankly, no, they don't. Family, friends, acquaintances are one thing, but randos like you? It sucks, but besides those who want to volunteer their time (who I get the impression you would reject anyway), why should anyone otherwise be required to emotionally support you, when you don't want to meet people at their level?

>Absolutely disgusting sentence, what a terrible day to be literate. Be charitable enough to forget about that guy so he can finally rest in peace, without being judged from the other side of the curtain, by some narcissistic faggot who thinks that terminally ill people owe him sacrifice.
See, this is just a narcissistic response (in the sense of NPD) taking over. Your felt need to "own" me comes about because I'm provoking you on how you don't want to confront the possibility that you'll only have the life you actually want if you give of yourself in any respect, large or small, whatsoever. Have your "own," but you're still going to find yourself as an emotionally diminished island, demanding but never giving.
Anonymous No.24599504 >>24599527
>>24599495
Why is there an obligation involving money, but there is no obligation involving emotional support? Can you resolve the contradiction?

Are you aware that you are forced (under the threat of violence) to pay taxes which, among other things, fund people in need?
Anonymous No.24599527 >>24599533 >>24600050
>>24599504
Money is tangible, emotional support isn't. These are not properly analogous. But it's a meaningless issue anyway, because I don't think it's clear that you would even accept emotional support without kicking back to "test" people or withdraw further. Answer me: why should a stranger give you emotional support when your attitude, from what you've shared in this thread, amounts to "I'm the only one that matters"?
Anonymous No.24599533 >>24599596
>>24599527
It's not about me, it's about your ability to hold contradicting views simultaneously which is a sure evidence of you being a good-boy biorobot who will always accept the status quo without resistance. If you were a german in 1940s you would be putting jews in ovens and chastizing them for not taking the gassing gracefully.
Anonymous No.24599534 >>24599596
>>24599495
Nta but the way you talked about your dying friend makes you sound like a cunt who lacks empathy. You can't even summon enough of it to wonder why your other friend, the one who grew up submitting and putting her own needs and wishes aside, was so accepting and "at peace" with her imminent death. No, the only thing that matters to you is that she was compliant through it. Thank heavens, I can only imagine how hard it would be for people like you and her cunt of a father to remeber her fondly otherwise.
Anonymous No.24599552
>>24593112 (OP)
>my therapist blew my mind
Posting from the Castro, faggot?
Anonymous No.24599596 >>24607225
>>24599533
Financial support and emotional support aren't properly comparable, they're only analogous. But this is another defense on your part against change. "If the world can't accede to what I desire, then it's the world that's at fault." The world doesn't work like that. Communal life is basic, you're not an island, you're not making your own shoes or growing or hunting your own food. Sociality is *necessary*. I mean, you can try living on your own in the woods, by all means, but if you're not going to do that, and if you're going to pine for any human intimacy otherwise, then you're going to have to swallow that you need to get on with people, and not just hide behind shouting "sheeple" and "conformist" like an adolescent.

>>24599534
Grow up, dude. Everyone dies, and it's awful that he went earlier then our peers, but he's not the only existing person in the world, the unreasonable thing is to treat one's own terminal illness as something everyone needs to bend to. Our friends still have lives to lead, rent to pay, children to raise, and his expectation was that our lives stop dead because his would. My other friend is a far better model, and I would hope that if I go by some illness, that I would be as little obnoxious out of a sense of responsibility to others as she did, instead of mutating into an angry solipsist.
Anonymous No.24599675
>>24599370
This anon is halfway to trooning out. Just felt like pointing this out.
Anonymous No.24599718
>>24598618
>A Culture of Narcissism
Good book. Underrated as a childcare guide. The guide? Show the kid genuine affection, real warmth and attention, and most of the problems noted go away. On the other hand, don't try to preempt their needs, and it's fine for them to be in a temporary state of want. Obviously don't starve them, but allow them to want things and pursue them separate from you. Giving too much is stifling, not nourishing. In retrospect this is more or less how I was raised. My dad was frequently clumsy and imperfect, but always happy to see me. Very grateful to him.
Anonymous No.24599725 >>24600060
>>24599370
I'm late to this thread, but reading back, have absolutely no idea what you actually want which you feel you aren't getting. Could you give some kind of example or scenario of what it would look like for someone to treat you the way you want to be treated? Very concrete, like, set the stage, introduce the characters, show the action. Because reading this right now, I'm pretty lost about what you actually mean.
Anonymous No.24599750 >>24603252
>>24593112 (OP)
I've read a similar book "Running on Empty: Overcome Your Childhood Emotional Neglect". How would you rate it anons?
Anonymous No.24599771 >>24603134
>>24599468
>People who have excess of money, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of money.
Bruh. People with an excess of money obtain that excess by taking it from those who already have only a little and this is morally accepted.

>People who have excess of emotional support, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of emotional support.
Peak transgender aura.
Anonymous No.24599776 >>24599979
>>24593230
You're a propaganda victim. "Alpha male" influencers have emasculated you
Anonymous No.24599777
>>24598940
If you are capable of deep introspection, then that's what you need to do anon.

>I know, for example, that I respond very negatively to other peoples’ showings of emotion (including positive ones) because of this hardening and it has negatively impacted my ability to feel connected to others. This behavior makes me more likely to abuse or withdraw than be abused.

You should ruminate on a few recent examples of why you felt this way and how you might overcome it. Then maybe try some form of exposure "therapy" by talking with someone you know who is experiencing some intense emotion and try to navigate an emotionally laden conversation normally.

And if that doesn't work then consider therapy, because 90% of talk therapy is just a way to get NPCs to engage in basic introspection that they otherwise would avoid thinking about.
Anonymous No.24599979 >>24600268
>>24599776
Alpha male influencers don't advocate stoicism.
Anonymous No.24599997
>>24597261
4chan is the physical manifestation of puer aeternus.
Anonymous No.24600003
>>24599468
>People who have excess of money, have a moral obligation to help those who are in deficit of money.

No, they do not. You wanting something from someone does not make them morally-obligated to give it to you.

Envy begets resentment.
Anonymous No.24600050 >>24600070
>>24599527
>Money is tangible, emotional support isn't
>a bunch of zeros on a bank account is tangible but a hug from another human isnt
peak bug minded
Anonymous No.24600052
>>24593553
the author adresses this
Anonymous No.24600054
What a fucking disgusting thread. Psychology is the most bullshit field out there. Forever thankful for philosophy that it saved me from these gullible pitfalls.
Anonymous No.24600060
>>24599725
He kinda spells out some of his expectation at >>24599349
>Psychotherapy can change your behavior and thinking, but it can't change your emotions, ergo all it can do is transform you from a low-functioning depressive, into a high-functioning depressive, but it won't allow you to feel better - for that you need genuine unconditional love (IMPORTANT it must be love UP FRONT, not something you receive in exchange for being a good boy)
The vision of unconditional love seems to be the particular defect; if one's religious, that seems to only be found in one's God, perhaps, with the religious community sometimes being a second-best bet. But absent that, one is setting oneself up for perpetual disappointment with people, since love between people will always have some conditions.
Anonymous No.24600068 >>24605547
>>24599349
Emotions are downhill of judgements, which are up to you.
Anonymous No.24600070 >>24600081
>>24600050
>socialism for feefees is more real
Lmao okay
Anonymous No.24600081 >>24600089
>>24600070
a hug from my mommy is more real, yes
sorry you cant relate, chuddy
Anonymous No.24600089
>>24600081
Is your mommy on the market for giving unlimited hugs out to anons with lousy parents?
Anonymous No.24600268
>>24599979
Yes they do. Their typical motto is the Rocky quote, the whole "it does not matter how many times you fall, it's how many times you get up"
Anonymous No.24600282
>>24599468
Get a load of this faggot
Anonymous No.24601387 >>24603254
This was a very insightful thread. You guys are all fucked up
Anonymous No.24603126
>>24593230
Bro tf
Anonymous No.24603134 >>24609538
>>24599771
>People with an excess of money obtain that excess by taking it from those who already have only a little and this is morally accepted.
learn about the difference between extractive and inclusive economies
Anonymous No.24603149
>>24594196
>Just so bizarre this is all popping up now that I’m in my 30s
Nah, it's pretty normal. Mental illness usually manifests in the late 20s and early 30s.
Anonymous No.24603159 >>24603173 >>24605418
>>24596691
>I think almost all boomers somehow land in this category, like you mentioned.
But this raises the question of how the devil himself managed to transform an entire generation into pod people that gladly pass their children into the Moloch's fire while pining for the next cashnado.

What went wrong?
Anonymous No.24603173 >>24603176
>>24603159
that boomer arcade looks p sick ngl
Anonymous No.24603176
>>24603173
Hitting the cashnado is like two shots of heroin while your firstborn chokes to death on an inhaled binky. Nothing compares.
Anonymous No.24603188 >>24603192 >>24603378
>>24599427
>>24599358
>>24599315
Anonymous No.24603192 >>24603208
>>24603188
its a normal reaction but if you cant address the cause its a bandaid.
Anonymous No.24603208 >>24603333 >>24603378
>>24603192
Getting internet lectured by a BPDemon that immediately beelines to "Who hurt you, sweaty? Awww, baby have mommy issues?" isn't the ideal of compassionate, psychotherapeutic discourse, but it's certainly the most common right now. Even the Book of Job had a better message, and that was written over 2000 years ago: if your brother or sister is suffering, help them. Don't sit there and babble to them about why they deserve it or what they should be doing.

>>24599370
>The correct behavior towards someone who has been severy abused emotionally (or in any other way) as a child, is pure, selfless, unconditional compassion, the kind of compassion received by a scared, abused dog.
Agreed.
Anonymous No.24603243
>>24599370
Based incel about to troon
Anonymous No.24603252
>>24599750
Tell us what did you get out of it
Anonymous No.24603254
>>24601387
All writers are fucked up
Anonymous No.24603266
>>24599370
>The correct behavior towards someone who has been severy abused emotionally (or in any other way) as a child, is pure, selfless, unconditional compassion, the kind of compassion received by a scared, abused dog. But that never happens - for human males there are only demands, demands, demands.
The fuck are you talking about nigger, there have been recorded many cases of compassion towards male children, I can't even believe I have to say MALE. Children are children.
You're on your way to trooning out, I hope for your sake that you are a decently passing tranny so I can cum in your ass and discard you so you feel the whole tranny experience, and even then you'll start a thread on the faggot board about how trannies are now the most oppressed martyrs in the world.
Anonymous No.24603333 >>24603378
>>24603208
>Even the Book of Job had a better message, and that was written over 2000 years ago: if your brother or sister is suffering, help them. Don't sit there and babble to them about why they deserve it or what they should be doing.
Where
Anonymous No.24603378 >>24604064
>>24603188
One of those posts is quoting Lasch *against* the modern fashions of therapy, which necessarily includes pharma-therapy, but feel free to pretend I was saying otherwise.

>>24603208
>Getting internet lectured by a BPDemon that immediately beelines to "Who hurt you, sweaty? Awww, baby have mommy issues?" isn't the ideal of compassionate, psychotherapeutic discourse, but it's certainly the most common right now.
You're literally in a thread about mommy issues, >>24599248 literally ascribes their (your?) issues to mommy issues, but countering a perverse demand that world act otherwise than how the world does is BPDemon lecturing? Grow up.

And I'm with >>24603333 on asking how you're reaching this reading of Job, which isn't about helping people, but about how suffering shouldn't be understand as necessarily correlated with sinfulness and a judgement by God to punish.
Anonymous No.24603879
>>24593112 (OP)
>New York Times Bestseller
Yeah, no thanks. You can instantly avoid drivel by avoiding anything with that label on the front.
>how
Just move out. It's that easy.
Anonymous No.24604064 >>24604227
>>24603378
>Job, which isn't about helping people, but about
let's be real here: nothing in your life is about helping people

stop pretending
Anonymous No.24604227
>>24604064
>let's be real here: nothing in your life is about helping people
>stop pretending
Anonymous No.24605418
>>24603159
Man, that clip gives me chills. Being turned into a zombie tapping away at a flashing green screen is not an enviable fate for the boomer. I actually pity them. It makes me wonder how worse our fate will be with AI and VR being recent developments that are getting better at what they do.
Anonymous No.24605454
>Death By Boomers, Tim Dillon
>Bowling Alone
>Sadly, Porn

>>24594196
>I do think it's worth just flatly stating that I think these two are related. ALL of my friends (I'm 29) describe parents that are emotionally zombies, bar one or two exceptions, with mixtures of unhealed trauma, total worship of capitalism, rabid politicking, and or a godlessness that bleeds into every area of their life.

Cradle to Grave television catered just to them, and all marketing-- the most psyopped cohort ever. Soviets at least could joke about the obvious, "There's no TRUTH in NEWS and no NEWS in TRUTH." Add over that the nihilistic permission to indulge having MAD in the background. Of course they're pathologically risk averse and rubbernecking tourists to suffering and unwilling witnesses to the truth of whatever the matter is, all to save face at any cost.

>>24596691
>I think you're onto something. They internalized the sort of consumer atheism that was circulating around the time of their youth and didn't dive deeper. I think when I brought up existential questions as a child or aspects of my own mind that scared me they weren't ready to take that on themselves so they told me "I overthink everything" and then that later became "I liked worrying." I just stopped bringing them my concerns because I knew they wouldn't or couldn't listen. I'm realizing now that I think the role self I developed is actually this detached, depersonalized self I feel now because it's the person who is stoic and doesn't feel anything, but internally I'm going crazy.

Capitalist [De]Realism. It's really just the ostrich act of passive/vulnerable narcissism, mild sociopathy. These are fucking hippies that couldn't wait to slob out and not put on their Sunday best for church. "jUsT bE HapPy mKAY [and do as I say not as I do]"
Anonymous No.24605462
>>24593112 (OP)
>I read it and it’s kind of blowing my mind.

Political Ponerology, Lobaczevsky and picrel. Deficient character is worse than bad character (they at least have character). "Late 20s Social Chameleon Groomerjack" pic is relevant here.
Anonymous No.24605500 >>24605749
>>24596024
self improvement is cringe af but if you seek it despite knowing that then you definitely need it. other than that it's probably anger at seeing someone bettering themself while they are unable to do so. mr krabs and the chum bucket
Anonymous No.24605540
>>24598576
no fuck you i am going to expect you to act as someone who is above average and you are going to like it. better not disappoint me or i will dislike you and seek other people!
Anonymous No.24605544
>>24598583
run away. it's really the best thing you can do
Anonymous No.24605547 >>24606130
>>24600068
judgments are value statements based on how things make you feel. you can't just arbitrarily reassign these values by simply saying things like
>from today on i WILL enjoy eating shit
oh fuck i was wrong it worked help help help help
Anonymous No.24605555
>>24599427
>>Who died the better death? Who went out the way they wanted? Who do you think is remembered better by anyone remaining?
it really doesn't matter. live like a cuck, die like a cuck. or die a rebel. or die a saint. who cares as long as you do it your way?
Anonymous No.24605749 >>24605758
>>24605500
a lot of good things are cringe
think about it
Anonymous No.24605758
>>24605749
no thanks
Anonymous No.24605997 >>24606020 >>24606274 >>24606486
>>24599367
>My feeling is that most people on /lit/ are introspective enough to outsmart the mainstream alphabet soup of therapies: CBT, ACT, DBT and all. But in some sense it doesn't really matter because they all have somewhat middling response rates in aggregate. The biggest determinant is the practitioner, so ask around and maybe try a few out.
I would guess that the vast majority of qualified therapists out there are only really equipped to prompt reptilian-brain-guided normies into the most basic forms of introspection, which from what I gather is what most peoples' engagement in talk therapy is like. I know people who regularly attend therapy for years and it has had zero impact on their persisting negative personality traits and seems to be used mostly as a form of optimizing the self to perform better at work.

One of the major problems of therapy, IMO, is that its goals are fundamentally irreconcilable with its profit oriented arrangement. How can you tell a egotistically unstable client that he's a narcissistic asshole just like his father, and that his beloved mother was actually worse when your paycheck depends on him coming back again and again? It's better to tell him "actually, you did nothing wrong, it's those other people who are all narcissists and don't respect your space! now that'll be $100; see you next week!"

i unironically think that socially maladaptives would be better off getting torn to shreds on an anonymous gambian flint knapping forum than getting their egos soothed and validated by a certified professional
Anonymous No.24606020 >>24609496
>>24605997
a simple but difficult question for the anons here:

can people really change after a certain point? or does their brain simply become wired in a certain way that still operates the same way but finds new, or "healthier" outlets? once you reach a certain age, will you always be that same person for the rest of your life?

a boy is raised by emotionally immature narcissistic parents. he has learned a set of strategies to maneuver in his household that he holds onto even after leaving the roost. he resents his parents and seeks therapy. can he actually disarm those thought patterns, or will he be trapped in a manichean, egotistical, constantly seething mental cage until the day that he dies?
Anonymous No.24606043
>>24599248
>>24599370

To be honest, I don't think that seeking unconditional love will even fix you. You are at this moment the scorpion and that love will be your frog. Until you systematically analyse and disarm your narcissistic thought patterns, you will drown the frog even if you enter with the best intentions. even here we can see you seething at perceived injustices and social conspiracies against you. such typical narcissistic thinking. if you see nothing wrong with the way that you think and see the world, you will inevitably turn anyone who becomes close to you into a target of hate and spite. it's probably better for everyone then for you to stay out of society if you want to keep seething and hating.
Anonymous No.24606130 >>24607754
>>24605547
No, you feel about things based on how you evaluate them. Why else would a given event lead to a given feeling? Sure, changing the evaluation isn't instantaneous, because the brain operates by habit, but over time, it's not that hard to do.
Anonymous No.24606244
>>24593553
>>immature parents
>That’s basically every parent born in the past century.
oh boy, cringe thread
Anonymous No.24606274 >>24606486
>>24605997
>How can you tell a egotistically unstable client that he's a narcissistic asshole just like his father, and that his beloved mother was actually worse when your paycheck depends on him coming back again and again? It's better to tell him "actually, you did nothing wrong, it's those other people who are all narcissists and don't respect your space! now that'll be $100; see you next week!"
I think this is right for a lot of modern therapies, but with the caveat that even psychologists motivated by more philanthropic concerns have recognized that people with personality disorders are hard to fix by plainly telling them what's up. BPD's start splitting and decide you're wholly evil and NPDs explode in rage from narcissistic injury, and both cut off therapy at that point. It's all a real mess to sort out.
Anonymous No.24606286
I wonder how many annonettes ITT are amer*cans. It reeks here of muttistan obssessions.
Anonymous No.24606309
>>24593112 (OP)
is the author jewish?
>>24593230
you never read seneca lmao. he was a brainlet
Anonymous No.24606366
>>24595519
>and hating Trump.
at least he got one thing right
Anonymous No.24606486
>>24605997
>>24606274
Narcissists aren't considered treatable by mainstream psychology. It's a Catch 22: their narcissist disorder makes them blind to their narcissist disorder.
Anyway, I do believe that a lot of anons suffer from what is usually called Complex PTSD (meaning maladaptation as a result of constant childhood trauma from growing up in a shitty environment). I don't know how to treat it or if it's even treatable beyond learning better ways to cope, which frankly sucks. Even therapy gets complcated since you'll either have to find someone who understands and knows how to deal with this kind of trauma or languish at the hands of some idiot who can't go beyond teaching hylics a few parlor tricks of self-awareness.
Anonymous No.24606506
>>24599370
>Reminds me of that roman soldier who gave a dying Jesus on the cross some wine, like it's going to make him feel better.
I agree with you up until this. That guy was a bro
Anonymous No.24606522
Thank God for decent parents or I would have wasted so much good writing in a thread like this
Anonymous No.24606557
>>24594196
I understand your point regarding godlessness, but it's worth mentioning that even within religious communities, there are those accounting types seemingly with no real conviction or thought who are just as bad as those you're describing. I know a friend whose parents are devout Catholics and have even consulted a bishop on one occasion to figure out why their son (my friend) is falling behind in life. As it turns out, they're the most materially possessed and abusive people I've ever met, and far from being hands-off, yet totally incapable of imparting wisdom or some sort of vital essence that one needs to brave the world.
Anonymous No.24607225
>>24599596
Oh no, not rent to pay! How dare he try and slow down your life for his.

>and I would hope
Don't worry bro, gogogo faggots like you always die like dogs.
Anonymous No.24607258 >>24607262 >>24607608
>>24599310
Hello? Anyone have an answer?
Anonymous No.24607262
>>24607258
it means the person doesnt like you, or they feel you are naive and unbroken. neither has to be a moral blow but they mean something.
Anonymous No.24607608 >>24607759
>>24607258
The book in OP appears, from skimming an epub of it lightly, to discuss emotional immaturity a bit vaguely at the start, but the author has a checklist in one of the chapters for gauging how emotionally immature one's parents are:

>I didn’t feel listened to; I rarely received my parent’s full attention.
>My parent’s moods affected the whole household.
>My parent wasn’t sensitive to my feelings.
>I felt like I should have known what my parent wanted without being told.
>I felt like I could never do enough to make my parent happy.
>I was trying harder to understand my parent than my parent was trying to understand me.
>Open, honest communication with my parent was difficult or impossible.
>My parent thought people should play their roles and not deviate from them.
>My parent was often intrusive or disrespectful of my privacy.
>I always felt that my parent thought I was too sensitive and emotional.
>My parent played favorites in terms of who got the most attention.
>My parent stopped listening when he or she didn’t like what was being said.
>I often felt guilty, stupid, bad, or ashamed around my parent.
>My parent rarely apologized or tried to improve the situation when there was a problem between us.
>I often felt pent-up anger toward my parent that I couldn’t express.

A lot of that sounds like it's trying to describe someone who's arbitrary and willful, avoidant of taking responsibility or admitting any wrongdoings or flaws, and emotionally volatile, while also being emotionally distant or detached. Does that help get you anywhere?
Anonymous No.24607743
I can remember clearly engaging in a form of proto-masturbation when I was about 9 or 10 years old and my father happening to see it and all he told me was to not do it in the family areas. Regardless of all the regular neglect I cannot imagine walking in on my son attempting to masturbate without having a serious conversation with him about it. I had unrestricted internet access at 12 years old and started watching porn immediately. They even did a random search one time and caught me with several tabs of it open with me even trying to talk to women on kik and skype. They took away my phone for a month, had one conversation with me about it where they essentially berated me for an hour over it, and once that was all over just gave it back so that I would shut up and leave them alone again. They literally did not care that their son was developing a porn addiction. I was a fat kid so no girls liked me and I voiced this complaint over and over again but all they told me was to “just love myself.” It was easier for my parents to let me become a fat porn addict than feed me chicken and rice so I could get some pussy in high school.
Anonymous No.24607754 >>24608709
>>24606130
well have fun eating shit i guess?
Anonymous No.24607759
>>24607608
Damn, I check off every single box
Anonymous No.24607910 >>24607964
>>24599370
You know what happens to the overwhelming majority of formerly abused dogs? They get killed at the shelter because no one wants them. Even your analogy falls apart. I sympathize with you as someone who went through similar experiences with my parents but what you’re after simply does not exist. You cannot reasonably expect people to unconditionally love you when you have nothing to love in you. I don’t mean that your mother has robbed you of some essential part of your personhood but she has robbed you of your connection with it. As long as hate, remorse, and revenge cloud your mind you will never be able to get in touch with that part of yourself that other people cannot reach. You don’t need to do anything other than let go of your anger. Other people need you in their lives. This isn’t them leeching off of you while your soul withers in bondage. This is their frailty which they cannot overcome themselves. You enrich their lives by being in it. The reality of the situation is that love is fragile. You must work to earn it and you must work to keep it. The universe is cold and uncaring as it is. Why add to it?
Anonymous No.24607964
>>24607910
>You cannot reasonably expect people to unconditionally love you when you have nothing to love in you.
now that's plain wrong. it's actually the opposite. the worse you are the more people are going to love you. and the better you are the more people are going to hate you. i'm not sure what kind of delusions you're having but you should get rid of them since they prevent you from using paragraphs.
Anonymous No.24608709 >>24608766
>>24607754
What would drive one to do so? The point of investigating judgements is to act less irrationally, not more so.
Anonymous No.24608766 >>24608846
>>24608709
>What would drive one to do so?
good question you can ask yourself. i'm not the one who tried to separate cause from effect by implying that you can arbitrarily judge things based on nothing
>judge by rationality!
name me a single rational judgement that has no basis in emotion and i will concede
Anonymous No.24608846 >>24609097
>>24608766
>you can arbitrarily judge things based on nothing
Who said anything of the sort? You can judge things correctly based on actual reality, rather than some random habituated thought pattern that you picked up at some point in the past, because it may have been useful then, but which no longer is.
>name me a single rational judgement that has no basis in emotion and i will concede
Eating shit is unhealthy, therefore I will avoid it.
Anonymous No.24609097 >>24609182
>>24608846
>You can judge things correctly based on actual reality
and who decides what judgment is correct? or what actual reality looks like? isn't that the same mind who placed those initial judgements and who decides to uphold the previous ruling?
>because it may have been useful then, but which no longer is
maybe it's still useful but the conscious mind is unable to see it just like it can't think about anything that doesn't have a word to describe it
>Eating shit is unhealthy, therefore I will avoid it.
wanting to be healthy rather than unhealthy is connected to all sorts of emotions like the fear of death and the feeling of pain/discomfort and wanting to avoid it. although next time i would lead with it being disgusting you dirty little rascal
Anonymous No.24609164 >>24609171
>>24599370
thank god someone abused that pitbull and made it regress into a corner imagine if that thing was running around all healthy mauling people
Anonymous No.24609171
>>24609164
sadistic animal abuse might have actually saved someone's life but i guess we will never know
Anonymous No.24609182 >>24609197
>>24609097
>and who decides what judgment is correct? or what actual reality looks like? isn't that the same mind who placed those initial judgements and who decides to uphold the previous ruling?
Unless you're some kind of Cartesian brain-in-a-vat goofball, you should be aware that your senses and rational mind give you perfectly adequate access to reality. But even if you are: As you mature and learn, you can take new perspectives on past experiences. The human mind is capable of self-reflection, once you realize that the initial ruling was a conditional response, not an absolute eternal truth, you can detach from it, and open the door to changing it.
>maybe it's still useful but the conscious mind is unable to see it
A solution to a problem which only creates further problems and suffering may be "useful" in solving the initial situation, but that's not good enough.
>wanting to be healthy rather than unhealthy is connected to all sorts of emotions like the fear of death and the feeling of pain/discomfort and wanting to avoid it.
You don't need need to go that far, every living organism is by nature inclined to choose the good over the bad, as best as it can determine it. We fear death because we judge it to be a terrible thing. Yet there's been plenty of people who've made their peace with it, and also people who judged death to be preferable to another alternative.
>although next time i would lead with it being disgusting
Yes, 99.99% of people will have a rational emotion helping them out in that situation, they wouldn't have to reason about it in the first place. But my point is precisely that our emotions don't always line up with what's actually rational and healthy, at which point we have to investigate and go deeper, to the judgement that causes the emotion.
Anonymous No.24609187 >>24609206
>>24594196
>>24593429
>>24593391
This isn't your blog, faggot. Discuss the book or fuck off. Nobody cares about your personal life.
Anonymous No.24609197
>>24609182
hmmm no thanks i'd rather not
Anonymous No.24609206
>>24609187
NTA but I like reading these kinds of posts and the posts in question are relevant to the book. I think it's you who need to fuck off.
Anonymous No.24609236
does it tell you how to fix it and does it work in what timeframe exactly
maybe soduku is the only way out i just feel stuck
Anonymous No.24609496
>>24606020
>can people really change after a certain point?
What is this "point?" Death? Something before?
>or does their brain simply become wired in a certain way that still operates the same way but finds new, or "healthier" outlets?
Not sure what this means.
>once you reach a certain age, will you always be that same person for the rest of your life?
No.
>a boy is raised by emotionally immature narcissistic parents. he has learned a set of strategies to maneuver in his household that he holds onto even after leaving the roost.
Yeah, this happens pretty frequently.
>he resents his parents and seeks therapy. can he actually disarm those thought patterns, or will he be trapped in a manichean, egotistical, constantly seething mental cage until the day that he dies?
Depends on how he approaches it.

The problem I keep seeing from the therapy-obsessed is this sort of desire for transfiguration. The only way I can really describe it is as a hatred of one's past, of one's essence, a wish that these be dissolved and replaced with something different. At the same time, there's an unwillingness to abandon the patterns that lead one to where one is. The bad habits themselves are sacrosanct. Note: "set of strategies to maneuver" becomes "disarm those thought patterns," not "learn and perform different strategies, even if they are at first awkward and unpracticed." This is very telling. People learn trivial new skills almost on a daily basis; why is learning a new way of interacting relegated to impossibility?

The desire to change the unchangeable (past, essence) is best read here as a defense against changing the changeable (bad habits). Changing the changeable is hard, but it is possible, and progress can be made. The progress is painful, and worse, is deeply threatening to the self. "If I could always have done it this other way... then what was I doing this whole time? Could I have been responsible for my own suffering all along?" The moral threat is unbearable, and so the patient will prefer to suffer day to day in the unshakable security that he has done all that can be done.
Anonymous No.24609538
>>24603134
>inclusive economies
A buzzword.