Thread 24619300

It's incredibly sad how well this book has aged. Mearsheimer may be incredibly hit or miss like all realist school types, but I was very impressed with how much he hit the nail on the head with this book, and I also see why it cause such a massive firestorm on release back in the day given he was the first serious American foreign policy figure to approach and address the issue.

>>24619300 (OP)
give a foreigner a quick rundown on the USI, as elucidated in this book please anon.

>>24619300 (OP)
>Mearsheimer may be incredibly hit or miss like all realist school types
>realist school types
As opposed to?

>>24619300 (OP)
not worth reading if you're an antisemite

>>24619305
The lobby operates very similarly to other influential ethnic lobbies/interest groups in the U.S, especially older ones like Tammany Hall that emerged at the turn of the century.
The difference is their tactics and organization; they do not focus on partisanship, nor are they one single organization with a dominant taproot that ties them all (though AIPAC is the biggest one). There are several groups in it that are all across the political spectrum and advocate wildly different things but are unified and doggedly motivated by pushing the interests of the Israeli government above all else when push comes to shove.
So their strength doesn't really come from the fact that they're some elaborate, massive conspiracy; but rather that they are simply a highly motivated, well-funded traditional ethnic pressure group that took great advantage of the lack of knowledge most Americans have about Middle Eastern politics to completely sway and capture American domestic politics (and especially congress) their way; further assisted by the fact that the U.S has a sizable and wealthy Jewish population that (until very recently) cared more about this issue than anyone else in the country by a large margin.
You're seeing things change now and very quickly, as more Americans than ever are reading up about the history of the region and challenging the narratives that have been pushed by the lobby for decades, and it's very interesting to see if a parallel competitor could emerge soon. The lobby is working overtime, but it's clear that time and public opinion aren't on their side unless the Israeli government seriously changes course.

>>24619356
>As opposed to?
Neoconservatives and isolationists who are the other dominant factions of American foreign policy, who are far more retarded but in very different ways than the ways the realist school can be retarded.
>>24619420
>not worth reading if you're an antisemite
It is if you want to see the history of public opinion and discussion shifting against Israel in the U.S, as well as how the Israel lobby operates here given it's a beltway guy spilling everything about the lobby in a time where it was at its height.

>>24619300 (OP)
I've heard it said that one of the tacit conclusions the book makes is that without the lobby the Iraq war wouldn't have happened. Is this true?

>>24619432
Thanks bro. Nothing about the twelve great solomonic rabbis conducting affairs from their obsidian kvetch hall vaulted beneath DC ?

>>24619432
I don't understand how people are allowed to serve in foreign militaries -- the IDF, for example -- & retain their American citizenship. What does citizenship even mean at this point

>>24619458
>I've heard it said that one of the tacit conclusions the book makes is that without the lobby the Iraq war wouldn't have happened
Yes, which was what made it so highly controversial when it was published (2007 during the troop surge). I'd even go so far as to argue this book was what shifted the anti-war perception about the war away from "it's about oil!" to "it's about Israel!", which I'd say now is the prevailing U.S opinion about the war and the biggest legacy of this book.

>>24619497
>I don't understand how people are allowed to serve in foreign militaries -- the IDF, for example -- & retain their American citizenship
As long as you're not violating the neutrality act of 1794 by PERSONALLY waging war against another country or fighting in a military the U.S is hostile to you can basically do whatever you want in that regard.
For example, I was going to join the FFL last year and I would've been able to get dual citizenship given France is both a NATO ally and not hostile to us.
>What does citizenship even mean at this point
Pretty much jack shit here lol

>>24619516
>almost joined the FLL
What changed? I almost did too, couple years back. Went to a monastery instead.

>>24619525
>What changed?
I didn't get in :(

>>24619432
>but rather that they are simply a highly motivated, well-funded traditional ethnic pressure group that took great advantage of the lack of knowledge most Americans have about Middle Eastern politics to completely sway and capture American domestic politics (and especially congress) their way;
I think they are more of a pseudo-ethnic group with some subsets that practice endogamy. Modern "Judaism" as such is much more of an organization based on ideology. To the extent that there's an element of being "born into it," modern Judaism is most similar to how the Sicilian Mafia operated before the Maxi Trial. You might think of it as a larger form of what the Mafia was, but with even less of an actual ethnic element to it.

The above reality is juxtaposed sharply with the founding myth of Zionism, as established by Moses Hess. This myth says the opposite of the reality described above, in asserting that the so-called "Jews," as in those who identified as such in the 19th century, are somehow "the only surviving descendants" of the Biblical people group from 1st century Judea. This is of course absurd on its face, as the vast majority of this group actually comes from Eastern Europe, and their religion is based primarily on Gnosticism (see early gnostic influences in the Babylonian Talmud) but this invented pseudo-historical ethnic identity is often asserted implicitly through pro-Judaic propaganda. This propaganda is also based very strongly on capitalizing on various common but fallacious misconceptions about the Bible itself (i.e. "you see where it talks about Jews? Yeah, that's us"), which is important because the Bible is a dominant influence throughout Christian cultures.

So the whole phenomenon of modern gnostic cultists pretending to be "Jews" really stems from the powerful influence that Biblical ideology still holds today. It ultimately doesn't come from any historical connection between the 3rd-5th century Talmudists (or later populations that converted to that sect in medieval times) and the actual 1st century Jews, which have to be thought of as completely separate.

>further assisted by the fact that the U.S has a sizable and wealthy Jewish population that (until very recently) cared more about this issue than anyone else in the country by a large margin.
Well, technically this population consisted of "people who identified as Jews," not actual Jews.

And if we get into why these people are wealthy, it will uncover from pretty uncomfortable facts, mainly hinging on the immorality, lack of scruples, and hypocrisy of this group in the ways that they obtain wealth from others, which occurs partially through thinly veiled nepotism, which is used to systematically game the legal system, and paired dishonest practices that are beneath others (similar to other mafia organizations), and which are so distasteful that others often couldn't even imagine anyone would even stoop so low as to swindle anyone else in such dishonest ways.

>>24619531
Im learning Hebrew in order to join the IDF in a few years. This life is a street fight. I know which way the wind is blowing.

>>24619445
What about constructivists like Wendt?

>>24619587
>Im learning Hebrew in order to join the IDF in a few years.
Are you Jewish, or just a sadist?
If you're in the IDF you're not going to be doing any honorable war or combat, you're just going to be torturing and killing random innocent people with no way of defending themselves. It'd be an experience more like A Clockwork Orange than it is Storm Of Steel.
You'd be much better off joining the U.S military if you want that (broken and retarded as it may be), or if you have a death wish, the AFU.

>>24619641
>What about constructivists
The vast majority of them have become neoconservatives.

>>24619561
>So the whole phenomenon of modern gnostic cultists pretending to be "Jews" really stems from the powerful influence that Biblical ideology still holds today. It ultimately doesn't come from any historical connection between the 3rd-5th century Talmudists (or later populations that converted to that sect in medieval times) and the actual 1st century Jews, which have to be thought of as completely separate.
A lot of this is also downstream from the influence of Sephardi kabbalists in the early middle ages. Reading up about the Western esoteric tradition really gives you an insight into these guys and how they revived gnosticism in both the West and among the Jewish diaspora.
>Well, technically this population consisted of "people who identified as Jews," not actual Jews.
There's also the quirk that American Jews are more increasingly defined by their identity as leftists rather than Jews, which long-term will likely defuse the Israel lobby's influence from within given they have very little attachment to the holy land or its historical value to Zionist Jews.

>>24619670
>are you jewish or sadist
Worse. Nothing that bad. Im just dishonest.

>>24619687
>There's also the quirk that American Jews are more increasingly defined by their identity as leftists rather than Jews, which long-term will likely defuse the Israel lobby's influence from within given they have very little attachment to the holy land or its historical value to Zionist Jews.
I think they will possibly be the synagogue of satan spoken about in the book of Revelation, with the main reason for saying so being that, for whatever reason they do so, they claim to be Jews. That certainly seems to be one of the things that defines this group above all else, and they often have to remind you of it. They also tend to signal-boost anyone who accepts this claim of identity, even if said people supposedly oppose them in some way or another. The Mohammadans, for example, seem to have fallen under the sway of believing this myth, as have many others.

Without realizing it, many people, who might dislike the influence that this crime family has had, have already been subverted. They are already playing into a kind of hegelian dialectic that's been set up, by accepting – without question – the central claim of identity made by these people. In reality, that claim shouldn't go unquestioned, and if you really try to break their claims down analytically into explicit and unambiguous assertions without the possibility for fuzzy definitions, the whole thing quickly falls apart. These people actually have nothing to do with the ancient Jews mentioned in the Bible. The mistake so many people have made is to not even think to question this basic assertion, which they always insist on making – but to foolishly accept their claims on face value. In doing so, anyone who tries to oppose these people, while still mistakenly recognizing them as "Jews," only becomes a supporting stereotype that unintentionally supports and reinforces these peoples' fallacious and ahistorical claims. One of their central fallacies is that they regularly make and assert an identity and heritage for themselves that they have no real, factual significant connection to.

In the most basic terms possible, these people are actually "gentiles who claim to be jews." And because of this, some Biblical passages speaking of Jerusalem being trampled down by the Gentiles (see Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2, also Psalm 37:34) may ironically be taken to be referring to these "people who say they are Jews," but are not. If true, this synchronizes exactly with the archetype of the "synagogue of satan" that is mentioned, in a prophetical sense, twice in the book of Revelation. Because this is exactly what it says they do: they claim to be something, while not actually being it.

>A lot of this is also downstream from the influence of Sephardi kabbalists in the early middle ages.
It's a mosaic of esoteric, mysticist and occult superstitions. Sadly these influences can even found in places like Public Law 102-14 in the United States, even though it is blatantly unconstitutional.

>>24619561
>if we get into why these people are wealthy,
Ok be specific then

>>24619760
There has simply been a takeover of the instutitions of mainstream media, and through that, much of the legal and political system was also taken over as a consequence through nepotism.

In modern times, this was done by abusing the rights that should have been reserved for the people. The people have been lied to on a massive scale, one that had not been possible on such a wide and compelling scale as we have seen before the invention of radio and television. Through the media, these people who call themselves Jews have turned themselves into the unofficial gatekeepers who have a fairly robust ability to unfairly shut down the career of any politician they do not like. If anyone doesn't do backroom deals with them to give them funding, and allow them control over such entities as the Federal Reserve, then they do a media blackout campaign against them. This happens until the point that the vast majority of Congressional seats, at the national level, are de facto controlled by them. That is to say, each representative is not really elected in a fair election, but is funded by a network of shell organizations (via Citizens United style super-PACs), which will be immediately steered to fund a rival in the next election against anyone who doesn't satisfy AIPAC, thus eliminating rebellion against them.

Because of this dishonest and disingenuous gaming of the system, which is performed on behalf of a foreign entity, and because of insider knowledge and nepotism, they have enriched themselves. This money is then spent to further various political aims, such as multiculturalism, funding the ADL and wars to benefit Israel, as well as the re-election of those deemed loyal to them, and schemes to further enrich themselves through fraud – for example, climate change and other kinds of green scams. These "climate change" initiatives are really just meant to redirect vast amounts of tax money directly into their own pockets, through subsidies and other back-channels – e.g. the Solyndra scandal, although this was small-time compared to other aspiring, dishonest and thoroughly cynical and disingenuous self-enriching "green scams" that have arisen since then.

The above is large-scale self-enrichment, which can be combined with smaller scale fraudulent business practices committed by individual entities. These individuals are currently given laundered funds and a safety net by the wider mafia-like organization which they are a part of. This will be changed by the eventual takedown of this organization, which happens when their activities are exposed to the light of day. I envision something similar to the Maxi Trial that took place in Italy when the mafia were charged with crimes and systematically handed verdicts against them for their organized activities. In this case the Trials I envision against them will be on a much larger scale than that was.

>>24619300 (OP)
I know that this book caused a lot of controversy and a lot of people attacked certain points but the writers bit back and counterargued is there, and then... silence on both sides. Why is that?

>>24619816
>I know that this book caused a lot of controversy and a lot of people attacked certain points but the writers bit back and counterargued is there, and then... silence on both sides. Why is that?
The people attacking the book when it came out weren't looking for a debate, they were simply smearing. This smearing ensures that no one of importance will ever use or refer to that book or anything in it without risking the "antisemitic" label. Radio silence followed afterward because their best hope of making anything they don't like go away is to ignore it, which they will do after getting it banned if possible.

This is similar treatment to other books in the past that contain insider information, such as "The Weight of Three Thousand Years" by Israel Shahak, "Blood Passover" by Ariel Toaff, or "Judaism Discovered" by Michael Hoffman II (a book more recently banned for sale on Amazon). All of these kinds of books are smeared upon being released. Then, they are sent to the memoryhole rather than having any further discussion, in the hope that nobody talks about them.

>>24619816
>Why is that?
Partially because the media stopped reporting on it, but mostly because the news cycle changed given the Great Recession hit almost immediately after it was published.
However since ~2021 the book has surged in popularity given that's when more people in the U.S began looking into and paying attention to Israel's behavior and the roots of the Israeli-Arab conflict and U.S involvement, and especially since 2022 and 2023 given Mearsheimer himself and his ideas have gained a ton of attention and a surprising following among younger demographics online due to his unconventional stances on several issues and surprisingly strong online presence for a Cold War-era political scientist.

>>24619300 (OP)
His "realist" school is bullshit. Even he admits that he can't account for why the US serves Shitrael so faithfully against its own interests. It's because US is ruled by fucking kikes. Mfers will never just admit it.

>>24620890
Do you think its because they're afraid?

>>24619300 (OP)
Israel lobbying the US isn’t some big secret. It’s been a well known fact for decades. The only reason people are paying attention to it now is because Israel’s war crimes are becoming a lot more heavily publicised.

For better or worse (probably better), we’re going to see Israel’s influence rapidly decline because of the horrendous PR they’re getting. Both the Left AND the Right hate them now, and you know you’ve fucked up wheb you’ve got Neo-Nazis and woke liberals actually agreeing on something.

>>24619356
Liberalism (Fukuyama) and the constructivism (Alexander Wendt) are the other big schools in IR

>>24620984
Mearsheimer is old af. Even if Mossad kills him, so what? Pathetic fags.

>>24620890
>>24620984
Mearshiemer is a smart guy, and I think deep down he knows that it’s because Zionists have infiltrated the US senate, but he probably doesn’t want to be seen as antisemitic because such an accusation is an academic death sentence.

I did International Relations when I was in university, and I can tell you from experience that you have to be VERY careful with your word choice when criticising the present neoliberal order. The fact he has the balls to actually blame the west as a western academic is already brave considering how nepotistic academia is.

>>24620890
>he admits that he can't account for why the US serves Shitrael so faithfully against its own interests
Dumb fucking retard, that's entirely what this book is about lol

>>24621024
In his most recent appearance on Judge Napolitano he came very close to saying "it's the Jews" or "this is just how Jews behave" rather than the usual "the Zionist lobby." I think he has wanted to say some of this shit for a long time. There's no way he doesn't know that Zionist chutzpah is a subset of Jewish chutzpah. It's like that Weininger quote: "One has either not thought about women much at all, or one despises them." As soon as you start studying Jewish behavior and attitudes you can't fail to notice their weird blend of psychotic arrogance and whiny victimhood is endemic. They have little emperor syndrome or only child syndrome or whatever, except at the level of world history. They think they're the main characters of life itself.

It's sad because there's no way, just no way whatsoever, to get them to stop doing this. All those Reddit posts by Jews whining about how maligned they are since October 7 show you everything you need to know about Jews. There's not a drop of "are we the baddies?" self-awareness. Compare that with nigs currently, you'd think nigs would be the most tribal demographic and most resistant to criticism but there is a massive movement of intra-nig criticism, they are basically absorbing white nationalist critiques of black behavior and developing them. Jews cannot do that.

>>24621084
They all know better. Matt Walsh used to trash Shekelpiro on his old podcast.

>>24621084
I don’t blame the Jews who are just randos honestly. I wouldn’t consider myself anti-Semitic even though I don’t agree with their religion The problem is a very specific group of affluent Jews who have managed to influence global politics through nepotistic cronyism. There are Jews out there who are anti-Israel, and they’re alright.

As for the ones who do have a sense of entitlement, I think that comes naturally when parts of your faith preach “you are the superior race”.

Antisemites

>>24621223
>The problem is a very specific group of affluent Jews who have managed to influence global politics through nepotistic cronyism.
Mearsheimer goes over this distinction in the book, and it's actually very interesting to me how he emphasizes that American Jews are often completely out of step with hardline Zionists and even most Israelis regarding Israel and the Middle East. He used the Iraq War as an example given American Jews were the demographic most predisposed to being anti-Iraq War in contrast to AIPAC and the Zionists who were the staunchest hawks.
>There are Jews out there who are anti-Israel, and they’re alright.
That's also something he gets at. Most American Jews see themselves as leftist/liberal first, Americans second, and Jews third; with "Jew" largely being a cultural identifier they use for convenience or appeals to community rather than a strict ethnoreligious one.
It's actually a serious and much-discussed issue among American Jews given these secular Jews are either marrying outside of the tribe or not having kids at all, while hardline America first anti-Zionist religious Jews (especially those of the Satmar sect) have seen their population explode.

Free Palestine

>>24619300 (OP)
I myself am pro occupation, but quite confused by why MSNBC refuses to run a single story on the occupation, including today, while typically styled as lower brow and more centrist CNN has been openly critical. Even Fox has run more frontpage stuff on the occupation than they have.

>>24619300 (OP)
Have you guys ever heard the stuff the Zionists would say in the 40s-50s? It’s downright depressing.
>Yesterday morning Ro’i was murdered. Dazzled by the calm of the morning, he did not see those waiting in ambush for him at the edge of the furrow. Let us not cast accusations at the murderers today. Why should we blame them for their burning hatred for us? For eight years they have been dwelling in Gaza’s refugee camps, as before their eyes we have transformed the land and the villages in which they and their forefathers had dwelled into our own property.
>We should not seek Roi’s blood from the Arabs in Gaza but from ourselves. How have we shut our eyes and not faced up forthrightly to our fate, not faced up to our generation’s mission in all its cruelty? Have we forgotten that this group of lads, who dwell in Nahal Oz, is carrying on its shoulders the heavy gates of Gaza,[a] on whose other side crowd hundreds of thousands of eyes and hands praying for our moment of weakness, so that they can tear us apart – have we forgotten that?… We are the generation of settlement; without a steel helmet and the muzzle of the cannon we will not be able to plant a tree and build a home. Our children will not have a life if we do not dig shelters, and without barbed wire and machine guns we will not be able to pave roads and dig water wells. Millions of Jews who were exterminated because they had no land are looking at us from the ashes of Israeli history and ordering us to settle and resurrect a land for our people. But beyond the border’s furrow an ocean of hatred and an urge for vengeance rises, waiting for the moment that calm will blunt our readiness, for the day that we heed the ambassadors of conspiring hypocrisy, who call upon us to put down our arms.
>Let us not flinch from seeing the loathing that accompanies and fills the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who dwell around us and await the moment they can reach for our blood. Let us not avert our eyes lest our hands grow weak. This is the destiny of our generation. This is the choice of our lives – to be ready and armed and strong and tough. For if the sword falls from our fist, our lives will be cut down.[11]

>>24621223
Leftist jews don't give a flying fuck about Palestinians. They try to mitigate the backlash against their co-ethnics, or control the discourse so it won't end up as a threat against their fellow kikes. The only good anti-Pissrael jew is Gilad Atzmon. He actually lived in Israel, and served in the military as a musician, unlike these fucking amerikike trolls like Dave Smith, and the other disgusting POS Noam Chomsky. Chomsky specifically is the worst kind, he pushed this lie that
>ACKSHWALLY Shitrael is just American imperialism, and jews are victims U _ U
>jews are always the victim U _ U

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon

>>24622500
Hannah Arendt is probably my favorite scholar on the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Her whole arc from ardent Zionist with some reservations to heavy hearted and regretful anti-Zionist is one of the most fascinating and detailed of the 20th century.

>>24622702
Probably because she was initially horrified by what the Nazis did, so she had the backs of her fellow Jews. Then, she got to watch in horror again as Israel became Nazis in their own right, so she backpedaled.

>>24622706
>Then, she got to watch in horror again as Israel became Nazis in their own right,
I mean, if you study the terms of the Haavara agreement (there's that coin commemorating the agreement that has the six-pointed star and the swastika on the reverse side) and historical collaborators, it isn't that much of a stretch to see the connection. The main thing that muddies the waters from seeing this connection is the way the zionists tried to distance themselves from the Nazi legacy after WWII. A lot of this was done by trying to reshape the post-war narrative surrounding Nazism, and make it "Hitler hated all Jews," rather than the more nuanced view that he actually opposed communistic Jews – which were the ones that didn't go to Palestine under the Haavara agreement.

Zionism and historically-accurate Nazism (of the 1930s and 40s) are actually very closely related.

>>24622768
Dude who keeps spamming /lit/ with pro-Israel threads? It's really fucking weird.

>>24622769
>Dude who keeps spamming /lit/ with pro-Israel threads?
I've scared them.
Funny thing is I'm
1. one of the few non-tranny, non-leftists who is not antisemitic on the 'chan and
2. the book is a very moderate, measured critique of Israel and the Israel lobby by somebody who explicitly supports Israel's right to exist.
These people literally cannot tolerate ANY criticism of them or their policies ANYWHERE on the internet, no matter how niche or obscure the site or forum is.

>>24619300 (OP)
Mearscheimer also nailed the Ukraine.

>>24619432
War will never be popular with the people under most conditions, most Americans I don't think care much about the Middle East because they don't identify with anything going on there. And we're more agnostic/atheist than ever. Personally I don't see a way out of it until the Abrahamic strain takes a backseat as the dominant mythology. It doesn't matter if Israel wins in the short term, Arabs will literally never stop fighting. They'll keep having 10 kids a pop in war zones and the ones who survive will grow up with a lot of hatred on top of a stone cold zealotry. There's no winning, there's only swaying sides. The only real change to be had is bringing all faith goers to heel because that's what controls America and the Middle East. Everything else is semantical shit. They fight over land and who's better at swaying public opinion in the West with pictures of dead children.

>>24622875
>most Americans I don't think care much about the Middle East because they don't identify with anything going on there
Uhhh anon we've been fighting perpetual war in the Middle East for nearly 25 years at this point

The truth is that Westerners simply have no resistance to highly-collectivist groups.
It's the reason why the Anglosphere has completely fallen prey to Zionists and it's also the reason why Europe is falling pray to Islamists.

You will notice that these demographics have way less success in more collectivist countries like China.

>>24623011
>Westerners simply have no resistance to highly-collectivist groups.
We defeated the Communists and Fascists which were both the most collectivist ideologies/movements in history.
Really, the issue has more to do with the West deliberately destroying itself and these groups stepping into the power vacuum after WASPs, European nobility, and the traditional military classes were overthrown in the 1960s by the Boomers.
Also, the rise of Islamism is a direct consequence of Zionism.

>>24623016
Through open warfare, not ideological battles.
It's why Rome was able to beat the Jews in war but fell to Christianity.

>>24623025
>not ideological battles
Last I checked Germany, Italy, and Japan today are about as far away as you can get from Fascism/Nazism and all have Americans still occupying them.
Meanwhile communism completely collapsed in on itself with some highly conditional exceptions and is virtually dead as an ideology outside of certain fringes in the third world (Sri Lanka and Nepal being examples), and even the last significant Marxist-Leninist regime in the world of China has given up on the idea of international revolution and instead reverted to National Communism/Socialism in One Country.

>>24623032
My very simple point is that there's a difference in how an enemy outside of your gates is treated to an enemy inside your gates.
It's easy to defeat ideological enemies in a foreign country you militarily occupy and whose constitution you can control. It's much more difficult to stop subversives in your own country from obliterating your country.

The US that defeated Germany and Japan was a Christian, racially segregated country that only allowed white people to immigrate to it. Now it's a shopping mall with no identity and borders where whites are a soon to be minority and Christianity is irrelevant. You're telling me the US has not been subverted? You count this as an ideological victory for WW2 veterans?

>>24623045
>You're telling me the US has not been subverted? You count this as an ideological victory for WW2 veterans?
Not at all, but you were insinuating that the U.S has no resistance to "collectivist" groups, which was not the case before the 1960s.
>China
China's already been subverted lol, they literally worship and base their state ideology off the demonic schizo ramblings of some German Jew from the late 18th century

>>24623074
Collectivist groups within its own territory, I didn't mean to say that the US cannot fight open war against other collectivist countries.
>China's already been subverted lol
China's been conquered by plenty of foreign dynasties, yet it's been around for millennia. This is nothing new.

>>24623045
>You're telling me the US has not been subverted? You count this as an ideological victory for WW2 veterans?
Not at all, but you were insinuating that the U.S has no resistance to "collectivist" groups, when the correct term is nepotist groups.
>China
China's already been subverted lol, they literally worship and base their state ideology off the schizo ramblings of some German Jew from the late 19th century

>>24623078
>>24623079

>>24623078
>China's been conquered by plenty of foreign dynasties, yet it's been around for millennia
It also has the longest history of sudden and total state collapse and civil war too despite this cultural homogeneity. All it takes is one massive crisis or pissy general to destroy the whole system time and time again (which is why Taiwan is the hail mary for the regime given its internal politics have been a mess with Stalin-esque purges of the party and military being commonplace since COVID, though with the U.S being the dysfunctional and delusional shithole it is it would not surprise me if they succeed in this endeavor).

>>24623123
And? I don't follow your point.
If you interpreted my post as some sinophilic "CHINA STRONK" type of comment, then I assure you I have no overall love for them. I was just pointing out a difference between them and the West.

>>24623133
>I was just pointing out a difference between them and the West
That's fair. Even a unified, homogenous society under the shittiest retard meme ideology from the 20th century can outperform an incompetent, schizophrenic, heterogenous society any day of the week.
This homogeneity is also why small, authoritarian Ukraine has held out surprisingly strongly against heterogenous, schizophrenic Russia despite the odds.

>>24622532
>>ACKSHWALLY Shitrael is just American imperialism, and jews are victims U _ U
I feel like I'm losing my mind when I see crypto zionists on twitter say "actually, israel is being forced into doing all this by christian fundamentalists in run down churches in alabama and mississippi."

>>24623537
This is why they put those mfs in pogroms. Shakespeare really nailed it with his Shylock.

>>24619300 (OP)
No zigger is worth listening to

Great book honestly

>>24624023
>zigger
He's not a zigger, he's a realist who believes the U.S can pull Russia away from China by recognizing Russia's sphere of influence in Ukraine as a one-time deal, much like how Kissinger pulled China apart from the Soviets in the 1970s by recognizing the PRC instead of ROC.
It's kind of dumb but it at least makes sense on the face of it.

It's pretty obvious that all Israel's neighbors have always wanted to genocide them and there will never be "peace," the only option is to obliterate them with weapons or demoralize them into suicide like has been done with whites. Internet chuds are convinced they're on the cutting edge of some shifting social tide when the reality is that the elites have for economic reasons realized that absorbing Muslims into their one world corporate government is much easier if they don't have the common enemy in Israel. Israel is in a fight for their lives and always has been and any attempt to portray them as the sole instigator of all their troubles is laughable. I've literally never once seen a rebuttal that doesn't amount to
>sorry kike but they deserve to be gassed
which just confirms the Israeli point of view

>>24624281
>I've literally never once seen a rebuttal that doesn't amount to
Well you don't come outside often, then. Hystericposting on lit of all places, lmao, lmao...

>>24624296
Insincere zoomer post. Yuck

>>24624338
Ah, you got called out and got nothing left? Yuck.

>>24624281
based but you're still being to sympathetic to israelis. they are everything they pretend to have suffered from. there's no excuse for such hypocrisy.

>>24619300 (OP)
heebs killing iranians kek

>>24624354
moar dead sand monkeys

>>24624346
You're free to stop projecting at any time

>>24624251
>U.S can pull Russia away from China by recognizing Russia's sphere of influence in Ukraine
Russia would stab America in the back at any moment, the current government's goal is a neo-Soviet empire. I am normally not a neo-con type but their government needs to be destroyed since they are all old KGB and/or Communists.

>>24624369
My point is that not everyone wants to kill all jews, as opposed to what you suggest. Jewish people are generally safe in Western countries and to suggest that Israel's neighbours, who are mostly very happy to assist in defending it (see: Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia) want to genocide them is hysterical.

>Israel is in a fight for their lives
This is also blatantly untrue but I'll give you a chance at explaining why first.

>>24624358
Kys. If it weren't for the ancestors of Iranians/Persians, Jews wouldn't even exist as a people.
There are some sick zionists here who keep pushing for genocide of Iranians.

>>24624403
People either delude themselves that if it weren't for Israel being mean for literally no reason then there would be no problems and everyone could live in harmony which is transparently false, its enemies have made clear since inception their deeply rooted genocidal hatred for Jews, or they concede that Israel simply deserves to be stripped from the map because of how mean or genetically vile they are which would involve cleansing the population. Its enemies' unceasing endeavors to wage war and terrorist attacks and develop nuclear weapons make obvious the true intent and stakes at play. Again, since Israel settled, Muslims have sought to uproot the nation. This is where defenders lie and say
>if Israel didn't do this or that then they would've let them coexist in harmony
which is false.

>>24624511
1. Israel is number 1 in human trafficking and illegal organ trade. There are tons of sources on this.

2. Israel has illegal nukes it has never admitted to having.

3. Israel financed and armed ISIS and Al-Qaeda. When ISIS accidentally attacked Israel they apologized.

4. Israel is genocidal. They love killing civilians and innocent animals. Israel deliberately fired rockets at a horse ranch in Iran. These Persian horses are considered fine breeds that are largely desired by many, and Israel deliberately.

5. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence Mossad was behind felling the WTCs during 9/11.

"We go into countries as an undercover team. We take on the same shape and form as the people there . . . we’re like undercover agents . . . We are aliens, starting to prep ourselves to conquer Earth . . . We are being trained, activated, and that emotion and mind awakens in us. It’s coming from our original planet . . . We will take over those living on Earth . . . It’s not a different galaxy, it’s a different Universe. It’s a different dimension altogether.”
- Michael Laitman

“Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat… That is why gentiles were created.”
- Rabbi Ovadia Yosef

"We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own."
- Maurice Samuel

Cyrus/Kourosh made a mistake freeing Jews from Babylonian captivity.

>>24624479
>genocide of iranians
God I wish

>>24624572
Kys. Iranians at least have a high culture unlike you.

>>24619858
Its funny how literal Jews expose their own side only for goyim business owners to ban them in return. Why's that?

>>24624580
Not a pissing contest, Achmed

>>24624580
Heraclius didn't fuck them hard enough

>>24624585
Not an Iranian name.
>>24624591
Heraclius was the first terrorist in history, literally burning Zoroastrian sites.

Eat shit, spawns of Angra Mainyu.

Anyone read this? I would but there is no audiobook

>>24624605
Don't care just being a dick

>>24624641
Both my first and last name etymologically go back to pre-Islamic times. Your name most likely has Abrahamic origin, cunt.

>>24619432
>The difference is their tactics and organization; they do not focus on partisanship
That's true. I'd add that Bibi being very close to Trump has also been a problem for AIPAC in a way. There are a lot of Democrats in Congress who support Israel, but that doesn't work as well when Bibi hugs the Republicans like he does. When Obama was president, the Republicans brought Bibi to Congress where he criticized U.S. policy, which obviously didn't go over well with the White House.

>So their strength doesn't really come from the fact that they're some elaborate, massive conspiracy; but rather that they are simply a highly motivated, well-funded traditional ethnic pressure group
I think this is accurate. Like the Tammany Hall comparison. It's worth reading how AIPAC actually works with members of Congress. They're like "let's have a meeting" and send their guy, the rep gives their positions, and AIPAC has their own checklist, and if the rep gets a good score, they can communicate that to the broader donor network. AIPAC itself gives relatively little money (I think), it's other organizations that are part of its umbrella. It's not a "PAC" (political action committee), the "PAC" stands for "public affairs committee" which doesn't sound important but these are legal technicalities. They do fight for their agenda very hard, but they are also risk-averse, they like to support incumbents, and don't like to intervene in primary challenges unless they have a good shot. They have had some successes recently helping fund primary challenges to two Democrats (Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman). They do make mistakes from time to time though, but they don't like to lose. Another interesting thing they do is not making Israel the main issue when they try to primary someone. If you see attack ads for the "United Democracy Project," that's actually AIPAC, but they won't talk about Israel. If they like a Democrat, they'll just say they're a good Democrat. If they don't like a Democrat, they'll say they weren't loyal to Biden or whatever. This is AIPAC actually:
https://youtu.be/kLMNVOIRkmI

>>24621084
>In his most recent appearance on Judge Napolitano he came very close to saying "it's the Jews" or "this is just how Jews behave" rather than the usual "the Zionist lobby."
Well, they love beating the system. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!"

>>24621946
>he emphasizes that American Jews are often completely out of step with hardline Zionists and even most Israelis regarding Israel and the Middle East ... Most American Jews see themselves as leftist/liberal first, Americans second, and Jews third; with "Jew" largely being a cultural identifier
There are some big cultural differences between Israelis and American Jews. There's a lot of chud-style nationalism in Israel like this:
https://youtu.be/ha-8LO0seaM
https://youtu.be/cjL0VI2UmMY

Very different historical experiences. Most American Jews are descended from Jews who immigrated to the U.S. before WWII.

>>24624511
>if it weren't for Israel being mean for literally no reason then there would be no problems and everyone could live in harmony
1. Nobody has ever said this and
2. Before the state of Israel was memed into existence the Arab world was on relatively good terms with European powers and especially the U.S and USSR. There would absolutely be conflict, competition, and atrocities like any other part of the world, but there would be FAR more stability and functioning states/nations with far more moderate and secular governments and societies.
Wahhabism and Jihadism itself emerged largely due to Israel's actions.
>deeply rooted genocidal hatred for Jews
This hatred literally did not exist before the foundation of the state of Israel and the rise of the Zionist movment/aliyah to prominence. Jews did just find under Arab rule for milennia and had virtually no issues coexisting with Arabs during the Ottoman era either.
>>24624391
>Russia would stab America in the back at any moment
True, which is why it's a foolhardy position that draws too many conclusions from the China thaw (the results of which have been disastrous). Opposing the U.S internationally at this time also just offers Russia way more international prestige than being a neutral country or American ally could, despite the obvious economic windfall they would reap.
>the current government's goal is a neo-Soviet empire
Not really, Putin's regime is far more concerned with mainting stability above all else and retaining the former USSR by any means necessary, while opposing U.S influence in the third world to give them security, resources, allies, and prestige. I know this comes as a shock to hawkish liberals and pro-Ukraine ultranationalists, but Putin's regime is actually the most moderate and centrist choice in Russia given the real nutjobs pushing imperial expansion and direct confrontation are ultranationalists like Girkin or the actual old Communists.
Putin has ironically held back Russian ultranationalists and communists better than anyone else in the country could ever do; it's actually very impressive.

>>24624773
Lol even the richest and most stable Muslim countries implement Sharia Law drawn from the same book that encourages slaying the Jewish heathen. You're in a roundabout way saying exactly what I predicted: if Israel wasn't mean then the ME would be stable, while clearly implying that all Israel has to do is dissolve itself and everything will turn out fine -- and if not, the remaining, reality-based option is obvious. You're just reinforcing what I already said.

>>24624281
>It's pretty obvious that all Israel's neighbors have always wanted to genocide them and there will never be "peace," the only option is to obliterate them with weapons or demoralize them into suicide like has been done with whites ... Israel is in a fight for their lives and always has been
I think Israel is very cruel and their government is untrustworthy, but a lot of anti-Israel stuff can be contradictory with different aspects that mutually cancel out other parts of the strategy. Like the thing about more people becoming hostile to Israel, if anything, makes it more likely that Israelis will stick to Israel rather than leaving (while they're also being attacked), which means they'll fight. It reinforces the notion in the society that there's no alternative ("en brera"), and antisemitism in the world is treated as proof that everybody hates them anyways, so they won't listen to international pressure. Or people will demand a ceasefire, and then when there is one, Hamas will parade the hostages in a humiliating ceremony which just infurirates Israelis even more, so they double down.

A big thing in Zionism (and I mean Israelis-in-Israel Zionism) is not caring what the rest of the world thinks. The Israelis care about the U.S. to be fair but they don't care about the Europeans. They do get a lot from the U.S., but they've always tried to manufacture one major weapon system of each type themselves. Like their own tank, their own shoulder-fired missile launcher. There's a lot of D-I-Y stuff like that there, but their enemies they just see them as foreign colonialists in Arab lands rather than, like, a militarized Starship Troopers kind of country where most of the population were themselves refugees or descended from them relatively recently. If you try to war with them, the Isrealis tend to lock up as a fist and will smash you, it's very tribal. The Oct. 7 thing was bad because there were also videos of Israeli women being humiliated (mujahid-type guys like to do this as part of their strategy to make their enemies look weak), and the Israelis were going to react in an extreme way to that.

The most successful and stable Arab countries meanwhile are monarchies because they can incorporate the religious and tribal aspects of these societies under a powerful sovereign. Ba'athism tried to brutally wipe out those aspects and failed, but you still need to have a very strong leader in these countries otherwise everything goes to hell.

>>24619300 (OP)
Never seen the man miss

>>24624831
>even the richest and most stable Muslim countries implement Sharia Law
Because Israel has undermined, subverted, and overthrown every secular government in the region whilst the Gulf has been propped up by oil money, American military intervention, and Indians. Egypt for example was more socially progressive than most Western countries under Nasser.
>if Israel wasn't mean then the ME would be stable
Not at all, I'm merely stating the obvious that the nature of conflict there would be completely different and Western foreign policy towards it would be far more measured and logical. The Arab Cold War would instead be fought between conservative monarchs and progressive/socialist Arab nationalists as merely another Cold War theater rather than the U.S and West playing defensive linemen for Israel against every single country in the region outside of the Gulf.

>>24624773
>Wahhabism and Jihadism itself emerged largely due to Israel's actions.
I'd say it's one aspect of it. But I don't like this theory that the jihadis are just reactive. They have their own agenda and people tend to underestimate how crazy (or diabolically brilliant really) they can be until they make their move. I mean Jesus, look at that attack in Russia recently where they killed something like 200 people at a concert. They see Russia as an enemy just like they do the United States, and you also see people who want the U.S. and Russia to get along (not that weird when you think about it) because they have a shared enemy here. (I'm looking at Tulsi Gabbard, who is very pro-Israel.)

BTW, one of the transition points from Al Qaeda becoming more of an anti-Western force was not just U.S. support for Israel, but the sluggishness by which the West responded to the war in Bosnia where hundreds of hard core Al Qaeda guys went to in the 1990s. The West did intervene eventually but it took a few years, and they didn't like that dawdling very much. Then they went and blew up some U.S. embassies in East Africa and mostly killed local Africans (but who cares) and then wounded thousands because they packed the truck bombs to the brim with nails and shredded metal. And they think that's legitimate based on badly out-of-context Islamic fatwas from 1,000 years ago about what to do when enslaved Muslims pushing siege towers in Mongol armies are advancing on the city walls (i.e. it's okay to shoot arrows at them, i.e. it's a life or death situation, but these guys don't think like that).

>Jews did just find under Arab rule for milennia and had virtually no issues coexisting with Arabs during the Ottoman era either.
Well sure but the Ottoman Empire collapsed. That's a big problem. The Austro-Hungarian empire also collapsed. Most nations that emerged from the empires that collapsed during this time have not fared so well, and there has been a lot of ethnic conflict. Israel has a unique position because of the Holy Land's significance, but I don't see what's going on there as that different from Armenia and Azerbaijan.

>>24624877
>They see Russia as an enemy just like they do the United States, and you also see people who want the U.S. and Russia to get along (not that weird when you think about it) because they have a shared enemy here.
Mearsheimer himself is the prime example of this, which is why he and many realists in the 00s and 2010s wanted the U.S to pressure Israel to give the Golan to Assad and normalize relations with Syria so Russia and Assad could be American allies (in this region at least) fighting Al-Qaeda and the Islamic State. He actually dedicates a very interesting chapter in the book documenting how much the lobby went out of its way to fuck over Bush and Clinton's attempts to reach detente with the Assad regime given after the Cold War and before the Arab Spring they really wanted to extend an olive branch to the West and engage in good faith (an example of this being Syria withdrawing from Lebanon after Israel did so).
Assad even stated he would cut off funding/support for Hezbollah and the PFLP-GC if Israel did this, and repeatedly said he wanted to at several points that decade.
>I don't see what's going on there as that different from Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The difference is the very artificial and external nature of Israel as a nation-state in contrast to ethnic groups like Serbs or Albanians that had been present with established borders and areas of concentration for hundreds and thousands of years.
Israel was founded by the mass migration of Eastern European (and later Middle Eastern and former USSR) Jews after WWII that built upon a very recent trend of Jewish migration to the area that explicitly used the Holocaust as the justification for this process; dramatically and suddenly disrupting the culture and demography of the area (oriental Jews are very, very different people culturally, linguistically, and even biologically). Furthermore, you also have the fact that Israel's belligerent and expansionist foreign policy and behavior is almost exclusively due to the fact that Israel has ironclad and suspect diplomatic, military, and economic support courtesy of the United States and until recently Europe.

>>24624667
Nope, its Roman so nice try

>>24624511
I wanted to reply but uh oh, seems like you got your hands full with the other two posters instead. Sorry Moshe :) the goyim know!

>>24624987
>induces Nazi terminology in response to a post that claima opponents of Israel either openly or inadvertently support Israeli genocide
They're not sending their best

>>24624877
>but I don't see what's going on there as that different from Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The UN supports Azerbaijan's claim over Karabakh, for one. Israel has no legal claim over the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

>>24624998
Yeah, I know, that's why you refuse to engage with
>>24624561
>>24624869

...because you suck harder than a mohel during a mtzitza b'peh. Don't worry though, haw haw, Israel will face South Africa style retribution.

>>24625051
First guy just listed a bunch of dubiously valid subjective justifications for why he thinks Israel should be wiped out, which just proves my point.

Second guy never actually said what he thinks the solution is here or refuted any of my points, he just implies that, like I predicted, Israel is responsible for the majority of the problems in the ME and without them Muslims would have likely have progressive democracies just like sub-Saharan Africa would if it weren't for the colonizers. I guess Israel just needs to be dissolved peacefully then, because that's a reality-based option.

You retards love to say shit like 'well sorry Moshe you reap what you sow :)' about the supposedly impending Israeli genocide then in the next breath cry about muh Palestinian children and how evil Jews are or whatever. It's laughable mental gymnastics but your neurosis is your business

>>24625071
>dubiously valid
Stopped reading there, bad faith shill

>>24624281
>the only option is to obliterate them with weapons or demoralize them into suicide like has been done with whites.
It's sad that you believe all of the propaganda that's been going on. It's even more sad that you think that, in this hypothetical world constructed from your propaganda, convincing people who are better than yourself to commit suicide is somehow a "good thing."

>Israel is in a fight for their lives
The people who call themselves "Israel" today have no connection to the ancient people group mentioned in the Bible called Israel or Jews.

>>24625071
>Israel is responsible for the majority of the problems in the ME and without them Muslims would have likely have progressive democracies just like sub-Saharan Africa would
I never said or even implied any of that you retard, I just stated that the nature of politics and conflict in the MIddle East would be far easier to manage without Israel constantly meddling in the affairs of both the countries around it and abroad.
Like I said before, Israel fought against, overthrew, and subverted every secular government and political movement in the region and assisted the rise of Islamists. Hell, Hamas itself was backed and funded by Israel in order to split the Palestinians cleanly in two after Arafat died and demonize them as radical Islamists, and in Gaza currently Israel backs the Popular Forces consisting of former IS fighters.
>impending Israeli genocide then in the next breath cry about muh Palestinian children and how evil Jews are or whatever
>It's laughable mental gymnastics but your neurosis is your business
Fucking lmao you guys are pathetic, you're the ones STILL whining about the Holocaust nearly a century later and browbeat all your critics, even very moderate ones sympathetic to your cause like Mearsheimer as "antisemites" for calling you out on obvious hypocrisy.
>I guess Israel just needs to be dissolved peacefully then, because that's a reality-based option.
My solution is for Israel to stop having an insane god complex and act/ be treated like a normal country. That's it. It's not "antisemitic" to criticize the behavior of a foreign government my country has irrationally tied itself to, aided, and abetted for nearly a century.

>>24624391
>Russia would stab America in the back at any moment, the current government's goal is a neo-Soviet empire.
That's true. But I don't think that automatically means waging eternal war and demonization is the right approach either. You defeat ideas with ideas, just like when communism finally fell 35 years ago.
>I am normally not a neo-con type but their government needs to be destroyed since they are all old KGB and/or Communists.
Their leadership is clearly corrupt and their whole model as a country is clearly built on pillaging other countries, combined with large amounts of propaganda. But nevertheless it would be bad if something even worse took its place. I agree with many important premises of the anti-Russia crowd, but I'm not convinced of the soundness of many of their conclusions. I agree their country, as a state, can't be trusted and they've proven it clearly by breaking their treaty with Ukraine if nothing else. Their attempts to rationalize it away make zero sense. But still, if you could somehow destroy their government with the push of a button, I think that wouldn't magically fix the fundamental problems that caused it to come into existence: how do you ensure something worse doesn't take its place? That is the bigger question. I think the answer isn't as simple as what most people make it out to be. It has to do with the people who live there being convinced of their own accord that what has been happening is wrong. They have to see the truth somehow if this problem is ever going to be addressed. Otherwise it's just a cycle through different forms of totalitarianism since that's all the masses will really believe in.

>>24624403
>to suggest that Israel's neighbours, who are mostly very happy to assist in defending it (see: Jordan, UAE, Saudi Arabia) want to genocide them is hysterical.
He is clearly affected by the propaganda put out by the Talmudists.

>>24624581
>Its funny how literal Jews expose their own side only for goyim business owners to ban them in return. Why's that?
The mafia had some insiders who became informants because they knew what the mafia was doing was wrong. The fact that the mafia had informants doesn't somehow make the mafia a noble organization.

>>24625102
What a pussy lmao

>>24625127
You clearly are implying that when you frame the situation as Israel for no reason meddling in the affairs of every country in the region and stifling the progress (lack of political strife) that would supposedly develop if Israel didn't subvert and wage war and whatever else. And to say Egypt was more socially progressive than most Western countries under Nasser is pure fiction, it was essentially a one-party state employing the same restrictions on personal liberties you see in all authoritarian states. Nasser's government freely distributed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion so it's ironic to bring him up as a shining example of Arab progress in a conversation about Israel's perpetual fight for survival in the region.
>Fucking lmao you guys are pathetic, you're the ones STILL whining about the Holocaust nearly a century later and browbeat all your critics, even very moderate ones sympathetic to your cause like Mearsheimer as "antisemites" for calling you out on obvious hypocrisy.
You're saying that in a thread of people calling for another Holocaust. Inducing the Holocaust in general is lame in political discussions, but openly calling for Jewish genocide while presenting yourself as a humanitarian (like that guy did) is rich no matter how you try to spin it
>My solution is for Israel to stop having an insane god complex and act/ be treated like a normal country.
This would be possible if certain groups weren't hellbent on clearing out Israelis "from the river to the sea"

>>24624281
What is exactly life-threatening about Palestinian babies?

>>24625071
>you retards love to [things I made up]*
I never said that, but you can look up the definition of neurosis and see it applies to you.

I mean, there’s no way on earth you’re actually going to quote me, just why you feel the need to strawman. I give you one attempt at quoting me, to prove it’s not made up*
Should you fail to do that? Well I’m just gonna laugh.

>>24624832
>A big thing in Zionism (and I mean Israelis-in-Israel Zionism) is not caring what the rest of the world thinks.
I think the United States should stop prioritizing Israel. At one point they were viewed as a chess piece on the board during the Cold War, another place to deny Soviet influence; I get that. But in reality, they are nothing but a liability. We don't get anything out of this.

I strongly dislike both sides of most of the conflicts that the modern state of Israel is involved in. I think my country, the United States, should play a far more neutral role than it has been. We really shouldn't be supporting or defending or providing moral cover for anything immoral that's going on over there.

Now, because I've been forced to be involved anyway, let me level a critique at this so-called "ally". The people living in places like Tel Aviv today are way too self-absorbed and arrogant. They assume for no good reason that America will always help them. Because of this cover, you see them escalate and provoke, doing things like unprovoked missile strikes on embassies and shelling humanitarian aid trucks while Netanyahu smirks on camera while saying, "whoops, we totally didn't mean to do that." Worse still, these people constantly try to escalate conflicts that could be settled without violence.

And worst of all, they threaten the rest of the world with nuclear war with their double standards. It would be much easier to stop Iran from getting nukes if Israel would get rid of theirs. I don't want to see any country in the Middle East nuclear-armed, either Iran or Israel. If Iran acquires nuclear weapons, that is horrible. But I would place the responsibility for that catastrophe entirely on Israel because the Israelis wouldn't get rid of their nuclear weapons. It's a double standard for people to be okay with that, and I'm not okay with it.

In addition, these people don't really share our values at all. They don't believe in truth or justice like we do. They bombard their people with pointless propaganda that makes them feel like eternal victims. They're living a pathetic life, and it's hardly any different from the radical communists, or other groups that place no value on the truth. These people really don't share our values. The idea that they do is only spread through propaganda. But it rings false. It has come at great personal cost to have my people dragged into defending these conceited manchildren who call themselves Israelis. They are entirely ungrateful about this sacrifice and simply kvetch about being persecuted even when they are being helped at great personal cost. That is because of how self-centered they are. I would be perfectly fine with cutting them off. I would lose zero sleep over it. Their propaganda claims to be all these great things; they claim to be so much nobler and better than their neighbors. They're not.

In actual reality, the Israelis are no better in any way than the islamists and jihadists.

>>24625269
>Don't worry though, haw haw, Israel will face South Africa style retribution.
>Where did I say "shit like 'well sorry Moshe you reap what you sow :)' about the supposedly impending Israeli genocide"???

>>24625314
Whites are still alive in South Africa though. Had genocidal desires been part of the reckoning you imagined then they would have been dead by now.
They're among the wealthiest, just on equal footing more or less. Or are you denying that both Apartheid SA and Israel have historically been brutal oppressors?

Ben Shapiro epic debate moment: denied.

>>24624773
>2. Before the state of Israel was memed into existence the Arab world was on relatively good terms with European powers
Is that really true? I'm pretty sure the Arab world was never really in good terms with Europe, prior to WW2 when the Europeans were literally using underhand tactics to gain power in the regions, which fucked the Arab minority groups down the line.

>>24625283
Iran having nukes is good for regional stability. After all, Iran protected Christian Syrians, Yazidis, and other minorities by fighting off ISIS.

THERE'S an old saying, attributed to the British Foreign Office in colonial days: “Keep the Persians hungry, and the Arabs fat.”

>Damascus
>Baghdad
>Aleppo
>Gaza
>all major cities of civilization
>all destroyed because of the pretenders to God's Holy Land
Shit fucking hurts.

>>24625443
>Iran
What happened to them is sad, and an indirect consequence of foolish foreign policy. Allow me to explain.

I think the entire middle east would be a completely different place if we didn't have Moses Hess in the 19th century try to rehabilitate his caste of gnostic moneylenders who practice medieval Kabbalah and LARP as Biblical Jews.

That misstep started a chain reaction of events, leading to the 1917 Balfour declaration, which was a misguided act that was ultimately repaid by terror-style bombings of British troops by some greasy mafia gangster in the 1940s called Ben Gurion. Those creeping, cowardly slugs, who would conduct terror bombings and have no value or respect for human life at all, were supported by immoral international moneylenders.

This immoral international mafia group, which actually have nothing to do with the ancient or Biblical Jews, has covered their tracks with the pathological lies that they tell, often illogical and contradictory to their previous lies, every step of the way. They represent dishonesty and deceit, just as the mohammadans do. They are also violent and dishonorable, just as the mohammadans are.

Iran was caught up in all of this during the Cold War, and their whole system of government was eventually warped into a grotesque, hideous mockery of humanity, much like most of the other states in the area. This is due in large part to the negative influence of the Israelis, which has led to the rise of jihadism. This represents a further sinking into depravity and lies.

Iran was already in kind of a bad spot even before the appearance of zionism, but the Israelis really haven't helped. They've made it even worse. That is the ultimate conclusion that we take from this review of history.

>>24625478
good.

>>24625478
Abrahamics were a clear mistake

>>24625497
Look dude, there's a reason why the Islamic Revolution happened in the first place; everyone hated the Shah because he couldn't cut it as a ruler.

>>24625526
>Look dude, there's a reason why the Islamic Revolution happened in the first place;
Yeah, I think it happened indirectly because of Israel. Even some of the mohammadans apparently see the hypocrisy manifested, which makes them angry. You could ask why? I think the answer is quite simple, because it's unjust. It's the same reason why many people opposed Nazism, which had a similar god complex, albeit with a different people group in mind.

>>24622702
Its like she applied a Nietzschean critique, where she accused Jews of staring into the abyss where the Nazis once stood.

>>24625518
Regardless, Christian morality combined with Roman politics is why monogamy existed for centuries, we would have remained a society where rich men have harems like they do now and monogamy as a concept would have never existed in the west.

>>24619780
you're crazy bro they'll juts call you an anti-semite and thats it the trials won't even get off the ground

>>24625579
>you're crazy bro
It's all there in Scripture.

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"
(1 Corinthians 6:2)

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
(Jude 1:14-15)

>>24625403
>I'm pretty sure the Arab world was never really in good terms with Europe
The Arabs had complicated feelings towards Europeans. On one hand, Arabs liked that the Europeans kicked out the Ottomans and gave them roadmaps to independence that they followed up on. On the other hand, they disliked the Europeans balkanizing the region too much, turning a blind eye towards the rise of the New Yishuv (especially in Palestine where violence against the British was common among both Palestinians and recent Jewish arrivals alike), and empowering monarchs who they disliked for being too conservative and authoritarian.
But overall, there was none of that insane hostility that defined most European-Arab history, and Arabs were especially interested in the U.S and USSR and held both in high regard until the U.S went into Israel's orbit.
>>24625232
>some of my critics are delusional genocidal psychos
>therefore all criticism of me is incitement to genocide and I can do whatever I want to anyone I want
When you brand all your moderate critics as radicals all you do is create more radicals the more indefensible your actions become.

>>24625256
Damn! No reply to this. Really makes uou question the honesty of some posters :’)

>>24625283
>In actual reality, the Israelis are no better in any way than the islamists and jihadists.
Ok retard

>>24626336
Who blackmails politicians and assassinates diplomats?

>>24626529
blackmailers and assassins. if they are jewish that is secondary, irrelevant

>>24626532
>blackmailers and assassins
And why do they blackmail and assassinate? Because they're working for a hostile foreign government? Oh, right.

>>24619300 (OP)
there's nothing wrong about a foreign countries domestic policy being the foreign policy of the americas. that just shows how close of a relationship the united states and israel have with eachother and if you dont like that then maybe you should create your own relationships with other jurisdictions because what we have right now is the best it has ever been.

>>24627256
>what we have right now is the best it has ever been
Not even 30 years ago Russia was in talks to join NATO or form a similar bloc with West, Iran loudly wanted rapproachment on terms that were highly favorable to the U.S and Israel, and pretty much the only explicitly anti-American regimes were Cuba, North Korea, and Iraq.
Now pretty much everyone other than Israel deeply resents us due to our inorganic obsession with Israel and the Middle East.

>>24625497
Christcucks also represent dishonesty and deceit. I doubt Israel would have ever existed without Christcuck support.

>>24627442
>Christcuck support
Nobody wanted Israel other than Anglos that fell for the Christian Zionist meme. Catholics were the most anti-semitic people on earth until 1945.

>>24625160
>He is clearly affected by the propaganda put out by the Talmudists.
Methinks he is a Talmudist

>>24622532
Lmao, rest in piss retarded nigga. This is what you get for trusting a kike.

>>24626532
Jews literally killed JFK and his brother. How many presidents were killed by ISLAMISTS (scary!)?

What an absolutely miserable thread. Conflict...conflict...conflict...Realist example of hedgehog dilemma. Schopenhauer was right.

>>24628444
You’re talking about hedgehogs

>>24628501
Schopenhauer was also a hedgehog:

>''The Jews live parasitically on the soil of other nations, but they are inspired with the greatest patriotism toward their own tribe. They stick firmly together. Thus, it is absurd to concede to them a share in the government or administration of any country.''

>>24628444
wisest anon so far; nice trips

>>24628444
Very much so.
Granted, it's unsurprising given a thread on this topic is inherently attractive to both /pol/fags and Israeli shills, but still.
At least it's not THAT bad compared to some other places that discuss this topic around here.

>>24625127
>My solution is for Israel to stop having an insane god complex and act/ be treated like a normal country. That's it. It's not "antisemitic"

Stop attacking Israel or aim to destroy it with nuclear weapons. Is it too much to ask?

>>24619458
Sharon government literally pressured the US not to strike Iraq but Bush administration didn't listen.

>>24628784
>pretending he's not part of it
Cringe

>>24628444
What I find more tiresome are Obama-era "good vibes only" people, who have an inwardly hostile attitude as they walk around with picket signs that say things like "love is love." Somehow these people seem to not only seek out conflict, despite all virtue signalling to the contrary, but they try to inject themselves into discourse where they're not even called for. It's like these people are pathologically averse to the truth, and they can't even stand to allow others to say it or leave well enough alone. So they become combative, despite constantly claiming not to be, because truth and the facts messes up their "vibes." So we get endless amounts of passive-aggressive virtue signalling as these people throw their tantrums.

>>24629241
>>pretending he's not part of it
I'm not.
I know it's considered "cringe" to not be a Holocaust denier or antisemite these days (especially here), but I genuinely want both a lasting peace and genuinely think Jews have done more good than harm overall as a demographic in the U.S.
>>24629163
>Stop attacking Israel or aim to destroy it with nuclear weapons
No country in the region has attacked Israel directly since the early 1970s with the exception of Saddam lobbing a few missiles during the Gulf War. Likewise, the only reason any country in the region would ever want nukes is because of Israel's own illicit WMD programs.
>>24629170
>Sharon government literally pressured the US not to strike Iraq
People from the Sharon government never said this until ~2007 when the war was a lost cause. Before then, both figures in the Sharon government and Israel lobby figures were the most hawkish people in the world regarding the Iraq War.

>>24629618
>No country in the region has attacked Israel directly since the early 1970s with the exception of Saddam lobbing a few missiles during the Gulf War. Likewise, the only reason any country in the region would ever want nukes is because of Israel's own illicit WMD programs.

This is such a dishonest and inverse take, No shred of dignity.

>People from the Sharon government never said this until ~2007 when the war was a lost cause. Before then, both figures in the Sharon government and Israel lobby figures were the most hawkish people in the world regarding the Iraq War.

Wrong it was prior to the invasion and generally maintained a slightly pessimistic outlook about the war throughout. From this to claim Israel lobbied for the war is purely zogged take but that's what you get from trying to debate Israel in good faith these days, Just lies and sensationalism.

>>24630395
>This is such a dishonest and inverse take, No shred of dignity.
Kek this is why I didn't even bother replying. He wants to posture as some cool impartial analyst of the situation while making jarringly obvious his bias and delusions

>>24630395
>This is such a dishonest and inverse take
Do you seriously think Assad-era Syria or Saddam's Iraq ever posed a serious, let alone existential threat to Israel after the Camp David Accords were signed and Egypt was no longer a hostile state to Israel? These retards couldn't even fight off their own retarded neighbors or deal with their own internal issues, let alone fight a competently governed, wealthy, and highly militarized nation like Israel. That's why Syria had to resort to backing Hezbollah and the PFLP-GC, because Assad realized he had to oppose Israel assymetrically in an adjacent proxy conflict given Syria's military was dogshit (and even then he fucked up because all he did was split the Palestinians up into more factions, thus making them less effective).
And even if they did pose a serious threat to Israel, why would the U.S have to come to their defense given Israel has shown time and time again it can easily stand tall when it's seriously threatened like in 1973 and 67?
>to claim Israel lobbied for the war is purely zogged take
It's 100% true. Even though Sharon himself privaately expressed reservations about the Iraq War, much of this info was not made public until after he became a vegetable; while his administration and countless others in the Israel lobby in the U.S were the most obnoxious hawks for the war, with Netanyahu himself being a prime example. When he was foreign minister he literally went to the U.S congress to give a speech pushing for war in Iraq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PDpwL8kuY

>>24630472
I'm not even pro-Israel and I wrote a long post criticizing them earlier, but even I am willing to acknowledge that Iran has been orchestrating the anti-Israel campaign, for most of the current century so far at least. You seem not to be aware of this, which really hurts your credibility, anon. Also you seem to be unaware of missiles being fired at Israel from Iran recently (which is much more recently than the Gulf War, literally this year), as well as by Iran's proxy rebel group in Yemen, who have also been attacking Red Sea shipping. This is the absolute basic of the basics, anon. You can debate whether you think they deserve it or what should be done about it, but the fact of it happening should be a given. The only reason it's not doing much damage is, again, primarily because of heavy U.S. support and expenditures on Israel's behalf. So honestly, my point from that would be, maybe Israeli leaders should listen more. I think they should listen, if they really value that.

But of course, I am personally convinced they're backstabbers anyway, just waiting for the right moment to backstab the United States for maximum perceived gain for themselves without even a shred of gratitude for anything. I think it's coming sooner or later. And the only thing I can say to that thought is, I hope the Israelis' sniveling little backstab attempt fails spectacularly, and I think it will.

>>24631108
>Iran has been orchestrating the anti-Israel campaign, for most of the current century so far at least
Militarily, yes. They've backed Hezbollah, militants in Iraq and Yemen, and backed Assad. But they're simply taking advantage of palpable anti-Israel sentiment in those regions caused by Israeli actions, not merely creating or instigating anti-Israeli/anti-U.S sentiment in those areas by themselves. Iran was fucking hated by everyone in that region until around the mid-00s, coincidentally when the War on Terror went sideways and Likudniks rose to power again.
And again, Iran pre-Ahmadinejad made several substantial overtures to Israel and the West that were all flatly denied, thus resulting in Iran turning against diplomacy and towards confilct.
>you seem to be unaware of missiles being fired at Israel from Iran recently
Yeah because the ones in 2024 were retaliation for Israel bombing Iranian embassies and assassinating several Iranian proxy leaders in Iran. They were legitimate retaliations as part of an ongoing conflict and not merely out of the blue attacks.
>who have also been attacking Red Sea shipping
Yeah in order to bloackade Israel, and they've stopped every time there's been a ceasefire and only start again when Israel breaks it.
>You can debate whether you think they deserve it or what should be done about it, but the fact of it happening should be a given.
The only reason any of this shit is happening is because of Israel's refusal to pursue a sensible peace or even uphold a basic ceasefire. They've broken every ceasefire, shut down every attempt at dialogue, and done nothing but attack and attack and provoke and provoke; and the only reason they do so is because they know they have the U.S in their pocket no matter how much they fuck everything up for everyone else.

>>24631156
>They've broken every ceasefire, shut down every attempt at dialogue, and done nothing but attack and attack and provoke and provoke;
Pretty much yeah.
>and the only reason they do so is because they know they have the U.S in their pocket no matter how much they fuck everything up for everyone else.
I'd say rethink the stance on that. Trump making a separate peace with the Houthis while stipulating nothing about them stopping their missiles at Israel, which they continued to fire while agreeing to stop attacking the U.S., says a lot. The message surely has been received that their current support is less than infinite. But I'd say from my point of view they deserve far less than what they are getting now considering all the things I said earlier.

>Yeah because the ones in 2024 were retaliation for Israel bombing Iranian embassies and assassinating several Iranian proxy leaders in Iran
Earlier you were saying there hasn't been any direct attacks since the early 1970s, with the sole exception of Saddam. There have been direct attacks - albeit mainly, if not entirely, provoked ones. Even if it's provoked, it's still an attack by any reasonable definition. Let's not mince words, there's no point.

There's enough of weird creative playing around with word definitions already by the intellectually dishonest side. Watch as they fail, just like the Soviets did when their breaking point came.

>>24631108
Iran has acted shockingly reasonably given Israel's bizarre, almost unprecedented status as a rogue state with a blank check to act like Athens in the Melian dialogue while every other national actor has to live in the 20th+ century. Iran is simply seeking the basic preconditions of its own sovereignty, which any nation necessarily does. To do that, it seeks alliances and engages in basic balancing (in the Mearsheimerian sense). It necessarily works with the tools at its disposal: friendly Shia factions in other countries in the region, and other states (like China and Russia) that have an interest in weakening and embarrassing the US. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

What I mean when I say that Iran has been shockingly rational is that the sheer impunity of Israel, and the audacious cynicism of Western states in enabling it, would irritate anyone to the point of provoking a spiteful and irrational desire for sheer revenge. No doubt Iran would be happy if Israel had a series of internal crises and imploded of its own accord, and no doubt many Iranians would experience schadenfreude if Israelis were even massacred due to some Yom Kippur 2.0 disaster that didn't endanger or involve Iran. But Iran's actions in the Twelve Day War show that it is smart enough to subordinate any such desires to realpolitik. For example if Iran had tried to punish or humiliate Israel in the recent war, the way Israel ROUTINELY does to the Gazans and anybody else they fight (more on this in a moment), the Iranian leaders knew that this would lead to Israel nuking Iran, or at the very least, Western states intervening and destroying Iran at any cost to themselves. What this shows is that Iran is seeking basic sovereignty and a regional balance of power. It wants to weaken and bleed Israel, and detach it from its bizarrely submissive "allies" and enablers, just up to the point that it's no longer a threat. Again, would Iranian elites enjoy it, after this is accomplished, Israel then had such a weak strategic position that it slowly disintegrated and underwent all sorts of disasters? Sure. But Iran is smart enough to let that be "icing on the cake" and optional.

It's an interesting situation because Israel is both very lucky to have a mortal enemy like Iran and very unlucky to have them. Lucky, because the Iran that Israel wants Israel to be would have done a LOT more damage in the Twelve Day War, and, in the much more important sense, brutally unlucky because this is in fact precisely what Israel wants, and what it expected Iran to do, because Israel is a rogue state that needs a total regional conflagration to survive. This seems paradoxical, but Israel's own sovereignty is predicated on being regional hegemon and nothing short of this will be sufficient. A total war with Iran that leads to the Balkanization of Iran is an existential necessity for Israel. But again, Iran is startlingly rational in understanding this and denying it to Israel.

>>24631197
All of this was understood as far back as Sun Tzu and the Greeks: A tactical win can be a strategic catastrophe. The best way to characterize the Israel vs. Iran conflict is that Israel is obsessed with tactical wins to the detriment of its own long-term strategic victory and Iran is the exact opposite. It is truly impressive how consistent Iran is at maximizing strategic gain even when it takes literal generations to bear fruit. As Mearsheimer and other commentators sometimes note, the Iranians seem to think reflexively on very long timescales. They have nested contingency plans that span decades. For example they have clearly even anticipated the possibility of a successful Balkanization of Iran and have done many things to make this as painful and pyrrhic as possible for Israel and the US, and they have clearly studied classic modern case studies like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Iran is a master at asymmetric warfare as a result.

>I hope the Israelis' sniveling little backstab attempt fails spectacularly, and I think it will.
Israel has been backstabbing the US since its foundation. The Lavon affair, the stealing of nuclear secrets, the USS Liberty, possibly the assassination of JFK, and a hundred other things, including persistent, heinously inflammatory spying on the US that no other nation would ever get away with. Any one of these things would have made any other state into a pariah in the eyes of US elites, but any elites that react in this (normal) way to Israel get systematically silenced. If the Ukraine did any one of the two dozen things Israel has done since 1948 to backstab the US it would have been offered to Russia as a sacrifice and US elites would have gloated over its dismembered corpse.

The spectacular failure you are anticipating has already happened. Gaza is a fucking disaster for Israel. Israel always had incredibly serious challenges to face in executing its long-term strategy for regional hegemony, like its demography, the reproduction and maintenance of its elites (also a demographic issue: the secular Askhenazi Zionists with the real long-term strategy for regional hegemony need the settler fanatics as constituents and as a counter to Haredi parasitism, but the settler fanatics are less talented, less capable of vision, impossible to manage, and steadily replacing the secular Zionist elites), balancing international opinion with its entitlement to impunity, maintaining its economic base (which requires convincing elite Israelis to stay in Israel, which entails convincing them that it's a safe, functional, prosperous Western state with a future for secular Western-acting Jews who also overwhelmingly have Western passports and can easily brain-drain the country by leaving it - yet another demographic conflict within the elite), and above all, retaining its Western enablers.

>>24631198
In the 90s and early 2000s it was very possible that Israel could have overcome these challenges but it has simply failed, mostly due to its elite reproduction crisis and demographic issues. Israel is a classic case of the paradoxes of Primat der Innenpolitik: To expand it needs to act like a rogue state, which means it needs to turn average Israelis into expansionist jingoist lunatics, but then these very constituents begin demanding expansionism and jingoism, and it becomes impossible to exercise restraint when restraint would be strategically beneficial. The same thing happened in Wilhelmine Germany. Wilhelm II was the victim of his own jingoism. The German people began demanding what he had initially offered them to win their favor. When he wanted to back down from dangerous escalation with the Triple Entente strategically, the German people balked.

Currently Israel is experiencing brain drain and capital flight, its demographic issues (both the Haredi issue and the elite reproduction crisis) have worsened exponentially, and, shockingly, it has failed conclusively in the two quarters where it at least always claimed success: total support by its Western enablers and military supremacy over its regional rivals. The 2006 was already a shocking embarrassment, given Israel's ambitions - it was a major strategic victory for Iran's axis - but Gaza and the Twelve Day War make 2006 look like nothing. No matter what the news says or the average jingoist Israeli thinks of Hamas, everybody in military and elite circles on the entire planet knows that the Gaza occupation is an utter, utter disaster from a military-strategic standpoint, and everybody knows that the sheer fact of Iran surviving the Twelve Day War (not to mention Israel blowing all its clandestine assets and not getting its major strategic goal: major US involvement in the Iran theater and thereby the Balkanization or at least fatal destabilization of Iran) is essentially the death knell for Israel's long-term strategy.

Israel CANNOT recover from this. What it CAN still do is lash out like the rogue state it is, which it is doing. Netanyahu, with his political problems, is merely the contingent driver of this process currently. Smotrich and Ben Gvir and others like him will follow and once again worsen the situation exponentially, and eventually it will escalate, culminating either in the implosion of Israel into a protected vassal of its erstwhile Western vassals, or (probably more likely) in one last blaze of glory in which Israel spitefully nukes millions of people. The latter is more likely because of the demographic issues: As the Askhenazi elites with strategic vision die off, Israelis are now sufficiently retarded to think that the various millenarian visions they've been sold are real. What was once a way of corralling Zionist settler constituents will soon become "unironic" state policy.

>>24631200
Many other factors are also relevant. Jews outside of Israel are declining precipitously in influence (as even the ADL is now publicly panicking about), partly due to their own demographic crises due to assimilation and intermarriage. At the same time, Western countries are becoming more hostile or (equally seismic) simply indifferent to Israel due to demographic changes and cultural shifts. A 40% white USA and UK with large Muslim populations and radical leftism and rightism, not to mention internal crises of their own as they struggle to reconcile all this, will not be able to run anti-missile defence as effectively in the next big war with Iran, and Jewish elites outside of Israel will be less numerous, less wealthy, less influential, and overall less well-placed to ensure this support. On every single level Israel will find itself both increasingly isolated and increasingly belligerent in the coming decades. Israel is officially in its own personal "Europe 1900-1913" era. It's no longer a question of whether a crisis will eventually escalate to a disastrous war that puts an end to Israeli ambitions forever, but when. They may nuke Tehran and Beirut and even Cairo and Ankara in the process but as always they will do so pyrrhically.

>>24631197
>Iran is simply seeking the basic preconditions of its own sovereignty, which any nation necessarily does. To do that, it seeks alliances and engages in basic balancing (in the Mearsheimerian sense). It necessarily works with the tools at its disposal: friendly Shia factions in other countries in the region, and other states (like China and Russia) that have an interest in weakening and embarrassing the US. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
I think this is too reductionist to explain what's really going on. It's better explained in a holistic manner by simply recognizing that every form of Islamic ideology is essentially crazy, due to the influence of the way the religion has evolved into its present form. Yes, there was a brief interruption when a kind of secularism become a prominent idea, but this was because European powers were seen as nigh invincibly strong before WW2. That mental process was halted when decolonization movements, spurred by Soviet subversion in the Cold War, emerged. This has gradually brought back the predominance of "craziness" climbing to the top, as can be seen with the ideological factors that underpin Iranian doctrine. And it's not only them, look at how other countries like Afghanistan or Syria (neither of which are very aligned to Iran) are nevertheless run by essentially terrorist-style ideologies now.

Basically my point is, a lot of what you describe for Israeli society also holds true for the mohammadans, or more specifically, the predominant strains of their ideology that currently sit at the top of most governments. For a while the craziness was reversed because it seemed like it wasn't working, but then it surged back in the mid to late Cold War, thanks in large part to originally Soviet subversion and instigation activities which were carried out worldwide. A good book to read on how this happened, both in the middle east and elsewhere, is the book "The Deception Game" by Ladislav Bittman.

I think that the effects of the above, i.e. the radicalism – and "might makes right" totalitarianism that leaves no room for any inconvenient truth – which is latent in both mohammaden and talmudic-dominated societies, can be overcome by persistent promotion of the truth. In order to do this effectively, the hypocrisy of supporting the Israelis has to be repudiated. Perhaps that will happen when their final backstab attempt opens enough peoples' eyes. Perhaps it will happen some other way. The future is notoriously hard to predict.

Many other related hypocrisies also have to be repudiated as well. We did this in the past with slavery, and we can do it again. Basically, to stop being hypocrites as a society, we as a society have to repudiate everything related to the woke movement and politically correct movement and social justice movement of the 1960s forward, and go back to the way things were historically before that mistake emerged. Cont'd below.

Cont'd from above. Actual fairness and justice for all and freedom of association and speech needs to become a reality and not just something given lip service like it currently is. I think the internet will be as revolutionary as the printing press became in that regard. We are still in the very early beginnings of that dawn today. I digress here as this is getting off topic.

>>24631197
>The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
This is both false and also a really bad idea. Take your example here. Russia sure didn't provide any help to Iran during their recent crisis, neither did China. They only want what they can get out of the weaker partner, which is why I don't believe any of their leadership really trusts each other because they know this too. I really think this is the case.

>the sheer impunity of Israel, and the audacious cynicism of Western states in enabling it, would irritate anyone to the point of provoking a spiteful and irrational desire for sheer revenge.
I think this is true, but at the individual level. It isn't a top down thing, it's actual anger and rage from the ground up and I understand it too. Even if I also oppose the agenda of islamists, etc. I for one don't think we should support the Israelis and they do absolutely nothing for any of us. They aren't a "bulwark" against the supposed orcs, or anything ridiculous like that as they desperately want you to think. We would actually be much stronger and in a much stronger position without them, than with them. Not to mention less subverted. The Israelis do not share our values, and the only thing they've ever done geopolitically and ideologically is make a bad situation even worse.

I think the ideal situation for the entire territory would be a one state solution. That would be downright fitting for them. Consider how many of their agitators pushed, in their absolutely cynical and hypocritical ways (I'm looking at you, Mayorkas and company), to create mass third world immigration in western countries while wanting the opposite for their own little "tribe." Let it be brought back on their own heads. And we ultimately really ought to get away unharmed, seeing as it was pure subversion.

>>24631198
>the Iranians seem to think reflexively on very long timescales. They have nested contingency plans that span decades.
It's too bad the current regime never thought to be on the side of truth, however. All the plans in the world will never be enough against that fatal flaw because the truth can't be stopped. It has brought down colossal powerhouses far bigger than Iran. Just as water will erode the hardest rock.

What I have perceived is that you can't fight an idea by hiding from it. And you can't hide from the Truth. You'll see.

>>24631201
>A 40% white USA and UK with large Muslim populations and radical leftism and rightism,
Looks like someone's been getting demoralized.

>It's no longer a question of whether a crisis will eventually escalate to a disastrous war that puts an end to Israeli ambitions forever, but when.
Their ambitions as children of the wicked one ultimately originate from their ultimate master, satan. Accordingly, they will end forever only when the prophetical timetable is fulfilled.

>>24631282
This just doesn't square with the politics of the region. The most obvious counterexample is the behavior of the Sunni nations. They are all pro-Israel and led by secular juntas. They aren't really pro-Israel of course, at a contingent level they hate Jews as much as anybody, but they understand that ideological wars against Jews will just collapse their semi-functional secular states, so they sell out the Dar al-Islam over and over again.

This shouldn't be surprising since most of them are hollowed out puppet leftovers of secular Arab nationalist states. Those were actually ideologically committed to removing Israel and working together (see 1973), but even then it wasn't for pan-Islamist reasons. They were suppressing their own pan-Islamist elements in favor of Arab nationalism.

What you see in the Middle East today is junta-led Sunni vassal states trying to stabilize the region even if it means accepting Israel as a power player, either because their elites are visionless cynical power-holders who simply want to keep holding power, or because they want to play a very very long game and outlast Israel and would prefer this to being subordinate to a regionally hegemonic Iran. Iran and its Shia axis also understand this and simply realize that their geostrategic position is better and more dynamic, in the sense that they are not total puppet states like the Sunni states and have a reasonable shot at being regionally hegemonic with Russian and Chinese alliances of mutual convenience in the near future if they play their cards right.

The exceptions are the hard-liners among the Houthis but even Houthi leadership knows what the real game is and has grim realpolitik instincts. Hezbollah is even less fanatical and even more measured than the Houthis and knows exactly what it's doing which is why it won't ever waste itself in a pyrrhic, short-term victory over Israel. It's waiting for the big one, and knows that the big one might take the form of Israel imploding in a civil war and Lebanon emerging as a stable Hezbollah-led state that hardly fires another rocket at Israel.

"Political Islam" is far more a factor in a few countries like Pakistan. Even in Egypt it's solidly the outsider faction, suppressed by the government because reigning elites know that its rise to power would mean their death and (if they care at all) the Libya treatment for their country.

>>24631287
>Russia sure didn't provide any help to Iran during their recent crisis, neither did China.
Russia's behavior is well within the spectrum of expected behavior although the Iranians were disappointed, and China's behavior was exactly to be expected, as China's position is very delicate. It proves my point that these are alliances of mutual convenience that Iran understood China's lack of material aid. Iran understands that their alliance with China isn't based on some naive idealism but on realpolitik. China wants Iran as a regional balancer and a long-term distraction and drain on US/NATO military resources. Iran understands this just fine and knows that if China were to have shipped all their cutting-edge SAM missiles to Iran, it would have caused chaos in the precarious geopolitical game all states are playing currently and ultimately weakened China badly, making them a less effective ally. Again, these people are thinking on long time scales.

>>24631321
>The most obvious counterexample is the behavior of the Sunni nations. They are all pro-Israel and led by secular juntas.
What's your primary example?

>but they understand that ideological wars against Jews will just collapse their semi-functional secular states, so they sell out the Dar al-Islam over and over again.
The phenomenon you described only demonstrates the machiavellianism of the leadership. The craziness I described isn't really referring to anti-Israeli sentiment as much as it is referring simply to might makes right authortarianism. The leadership of these countries are playing the "short game" to hold onto power, whether that means attacking or aligning with the Israelis depending on the immediate circumstances. For Iran, their situation dictates that to hold onto power, they need to be hardliners, and their situation vis a vis to Sunni population makes their situation apparently more desperate from a sheer demographic perspective. The Shia faction have fewer chess pieces on the board, and are outnumbered, so they have to act more risky. Their power hungry leaders never think about the consequences of mass deception and propaganda, and the concept of truth is a joke to them, which leads to their long term downfall.

The same can be said of the other type of mohammadans as well as the talmudists themselves, although each one faces a somewhat different immediate situation. None of them have even bothered to find out the truth, so they all languish in ignorance and dysgenics brought on by their backwards primitive cultures. That's also why they are so stagnant in the first place. They only really acquire weapons and expertise by obtaining it from other countries that know a thing or two about finding out the truth. It's the difference between someone who knows how to catch a fish (in this case, generate new R&D) and those who are only sold fish in exchange for goods and services. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but sadly, the entire middle east is nothing but a "playground" for proxy wars and for superior cultures from outside of the region selling weapons to both sides as long as they can make a profit.

>either because their elites are visionless cynical power-holders who simply want to keep holding power, or because they want to play a very very long game and outlast Israel and would prefer this to being subordinate to a regionally hegemonic Iran.
They're not playing a very, very long game. That might be you projecting your sophisticated ideas on them. It's nothing but warlords in reality who will live and die by the sword. They have no investment or interest in the truth. When they most likely die in a coup d'etat by another warlord, they won't know why. It will hit them from nowhere. There won't be any noticeable increase in quality of life, no matter how many times this happens, as long as this totalitarianism predominates and rises to the top. But this seems to be dictated by larger geopolitical realities right now.

>>24631330
>if China were to have shipped all their cutting-edge SAM missiles to Iran, it would have caused chaos in the precarious geopolitical game all states are playing currently and ultimately weakened China badly, making them a less effective ally. Again, these people are thinking on long time scales.
If these people thought on an ultra-long time scale, they would realize they can't withstand the truth forever though. Siding with truth and actual facts is thinking on the truly ultra-long time scale. Being obscurantist and trying to hide from the truth, as if to escape from the light of the sun, is short term thinking.

>>24631372
>>24631288
>truth
Both Israel and Iran are not civic materialist regimes. Israel is an ethnic nationalist one and Iran is a religious nationalist one, so that's besides the point. Behavior is what we're talking about, and Iran has behaved far more responsibly on the international scale than Israel in recent years.

>>24631369
>What's your primary example?
Egypt and Jordan I believe are who he is referencing.
>from other countries that know a thing or two about finding out the truth
Do you seriously believe the West is a "truthful" regime led by honest people?

>>24631200
>everybody in military and elite circles on the entire planet knows that the Gaza occupation is an utter, utter disaster from a military-strategic standpoint
Do you have any suggested reading on this? Also what do you make of the destruction of Hezbollah and its ensuing impact on Assad's regime, thwarting Iranian influence?

>>24631454
>Do you have any suggested reading on this?
Israel has lost every single allied or even neutral country on the planet outside of the U.S regardless of political alignment. Even Germany just recently suspended arms exports to Israel and they were the last big European country to stand with Israel for obvious reasons. 4/5 security council members recognize Palestine, and 4/5 Five Eyes members recognize Palestine as well, both of which would've been unimaginable pre-war.
>what do you make of the destruction of Hezbollah
They haven't been fully destroyed yet. What happens in the next year or so as Lebanon tries to disarm them will be fascinating, and I guarantee a compromise will be made due to the influence of Amal and the rise of pro-Hamas elements there where Hezbollah members lay down their arms but join Lebanon's army. So my money is on the Lebanese state becoming more anti-Israel, but Hezbollah de jure no longer existing.
As for Syria, the fall of Assad has already been a disaster. The U.S and Turkey/Gulf have been doing their damnedest to hand out carrots to the new regime, but they can't help themselves when it comes to the head chopping and ehtnic cleansing given they're literally a bunch of former IS and Al-Qaeda fighters. Israel seems to have a ton of buyers' remorse and it's highly likely a newer, worse civil war similar to what happened in Libya will occur but on a bigger scale. Iran and Russia will likely carve new spheres of influence alongside Turkey and Israel, while the U.S gets the fuck out. General consensus increasingly seems to be that getting rid of Assad was a mistake, and that the West even fucked up because they failed to kick Russia out.

>>24631472
The military establishment is different to the political establishment. I don't expect politicians to do anything but pander to their base. They're also justifiably worried about a migrant crisis after hearing what the hard-liners are agitating for. I am truly curious about an actual military analysis of how Israel could better have achieved its goals. I think the aid tampering was a huge mistake, which even Israelis seem to have admitted. But I'm curious about what the other outcomes could have been.

>>24631408
>Do you seriously believe the West is a "truthful" regime
The leaders of free world democracies aren't suppressing their people. It doesn't matter nearly as much what the leaders themselves think – because others who aren't in the regime have actual freedom and liberty to disagree. This freedom is constantly under threat from ideologies that would like to destroy that. But it hasn't been destroyed, like it is outside of the free world.

Most recently the biggest example of this is wokeism. But this ideology, I believe, represents the efforts (albeit in vain) of foreigners and outsiders, AIPAC and ADL, with other subversion groups funded from abroad, to subvert our "one nation under God."

Most of the people you are probably thinking of in your post are going to be agents of one of the above groups. Fortunately they have not actually established a totalitarian dictatorship, although they are unironically trying. I believe the dynamics are all changing now, but during the era of television dominance, these alien influences have also managed to significantly erode civilization from where it once was before that. So they've done damage, but they aren't able to completely destroy the potential of the country because of significant limits to their power.

>Both Israel and Iran are not civic materialist regimes.
Look at what happened to dialectical materialism. Materialism as an ideology isn't true either.

>>24631372
All human beings behave according to what they believe is true. That doesn't mean absolute truth doesn't exist, but it does mean that it's epistemologically absurd to say "He knew with absolute certainty that stealing from this store would end in his death, and did it anyway, despite not wanting to die." The only way to make sense of that man stealing from that store is with some account of how he didn't think he was going to die - either that or we assume he wanted to die. No one "hides" from the truth in this specific sense. We can say people hide from the truth in a certain sense, e.g., that they have some cognitive dissonance and fall prey to wishful thinking or let their emotions blind them or something.

Both Israel and Iran are doing what they think is rational, as are all the Sunni junta and puppet states and their elites. All of them are "hiding" from uncomfortable truths in the second sense just described, but none of them are engaging in the absurd act of truly knowing with certainty what is likely to happen if they do X, and then doing X and expecting Z.

Israel's elite truly believes that its security requires regional hegemony, and that regional hegemony requires the destabilization and destruction of regional rivals. Iran's elites know this, and knows Israeli elites know they know it, etc. Iranian elites believe a mix of things but when it comes to geopolitics they evidently believe that the Iranian people (not the Iranian state) must survive and that this survival entails the encirclement and weakening of the anomalous rogue state of Israel. You don't have to care about which factions believe that a glorious Shia world society is the next step after that, and which are simply Iranian nationalists. That isn't relevant to this level of analysis.

>>24631454
You sort of have to cobble together all the reports and footage coming out of Israel and read a lot of independent analysts. I don't have any one-stop shop. But generally speaking IR literature (and military consensus) is unanimous on "forever wars" and frozen conflicts being horrifyingly bad, especially for the stronger party, and especially if the hegemon has to fight asymmetrically against an ideologically committed opponent willing to tolerate basically anything, as Israel does. Israel was clearly banking on a refugee crisis as a vehicle for ethnic cleansing. Because they didn't get it, and instead got two million potential brown Vietcong they have to either administer for eternity or leave to their own devices again to rebuild and refortify (after giving them decades of free UXO to make IEDs from), they are truly fucked. They are in a very bad position. Meanwhile the settler faction is screaming for Auschwitz-style death camps in the West Bank. If I were an Israeli military strategic I'd be very angry at Netanyahu.

All of this is in addition to the INSANE loss of international standing Israel has suffered. They wouldn't have minded their current pariah status (as long as the US continues to support them unconditionally) if they had gotten their ethnic cleansing, but they didn't, so basically they burned all their best cards for nothing. The result of this war will either be a forever occupation that destroys the Israeli state, or a status quo ante that leaves them in a much worse version of the same position they were already in. And as I said in previous posts, Israel is incapable of reacting to this with long-term thinking. They want short-term solutions to everything. You can see this in how their solution to every problem is a decapitation strike, which never ever works.

You can sort of tell how bad things are by how triumphalist anti-Israel people of all stripes are. Everybody with geopolitical instincts knows Israel is bleeding in ways it can't recover from. That's why all these commentators are coming out of the woodwork to publicize it as much as possible. They know instinctively that every iota of bad PR Israel gets is pushing another country to recognize Palestine or sanction it. None of these symbolic gestures will do shit (as always), but cumulatively they are terrible for Israel. Eventually they will culminate in something like: during the next Twelve Day War, when Israel wants to assassinate Iran's entire political leadership again even though it didn't work the first time and just hope for the best (because, again, this is how Israel thinks), its European allies will refuse to provide refueling and air cover, or at least provide less. They will grumble more. That grumbling adds up.

>>24631487
Similarly, against all odds, the day is coming when repudiating AIPAC will be a shibboleth for some important constituency in US elections, and everybody feels it. They sense blood in the water. You have to understand how many civilian and military elites hate Israel and have had to keep quiet about it for decades. It's not necessarily fanatic anti-Jew hatred, it's just "can we be done with these fucking retards already?" You're starting to see weird little leaks everywhere, like that one CENTCOM guy getting outed for shitting on Israel, or INDOPACOM increasing its "stop stealing our fucking stuff you retards" grumbling, or the guy who killed Bin Laden possibly drunktweeting that the IDF are weird little equipment thieves, or vets on Youtube mocking the "Israeli draw." Everybody seems to be kind of side-glancing to see if it's permitted to shit on Israel yet. This is VERY bad for Israel and the truly smart Zionist strategists know it. Once this process becomes self-sustaining you can't reverse it. It already has though.

I'm agnostic on how much damage has been done to Hezbollah but my strong feeling is that they are fine and that the civil war that seems to be brewing in Lebanon would be bad both for them and Israel, mainly Israel. Hezbollah would be distracted but it would introduce more chaos on Israel's northern border and possibly make Hezbollah act "irrationally" in terms of its own long-term survival but in a way that does more damage to Israel in the long run. Of course, this seems to be what the fanatics in Israel want, so they might provoke or enable it anyway.

My feeling is that Hezbollah remains very dangerous to Israel.

>>24631486
They'll never transcend that way of thinking unless they repudiate those false belief systems somehow. The belief systems are so clearly false that it requires them to bury their heads in the sand about a mind-boggling number of things. This results in a low trust society where the lowest common denominator holds absolute power, usually as a proxy who is dependent on some other foreign power, and the permanent instability that brings. This all stems from the false belief systems, the false faiths they hold. Thus my point. What I see you saying is that they act according to their warped view of the world – and my point is that their view is irreparably warped exactly because their belief system is false, which then leads to their inevitable demise as we see now. Those who aren't as messed up as these ideologues don't suffer from the same blindness and inability to function at even a basic level that would otherwise allow them to thrive. OTOH those who fully embrace the truth are inevitably going to win, in the long term.

>>24619300 (OP)
For a 'realist' Mearsheimer sure likes to downplay the fact that Israel is a purely realist state

>>24631501
Basically what I'm saying is that the Middle East is primitive and barbaric because that's what Islam and Judaism as such bring. Academic relativism and political correctness doesn't comprehend this, but it is true. It makes them ignorant, dysgenic and barbaric, since the tenets of either of those belief systems or faiths demands that you be like that. You can see it in the fact that both systems value deceit as a virtue. Every country affected by it will continue to be thrown headlong into permanent ignorance. This is objective. One can see the results. All one must do is look at the outcomes. Anyone with eyes to see needs not me to tell them this.

>>24631519
>Israel is a purely realist state

>>24631472
>General consensus increasingly seems to be that getting rid of Assad was a mistake, and that the West even fucked up because they failed to kick Russia out
Removing Assad meant degrading Russia's influence via domino effect. Consensus right now is the complete opposite. Seeing Putin's billions-of-rubles pet project in Syria fail as soon as Hezbollah got BTFO'd in Lebanon made the world care much less about al-Shara. That coupled with Israeli's decapitation strikes on Iran's leadership completely eroded Russia's influence in the Middle East as it becomes more singularly focused on the Ukraine war. Assad is only alive because Putin lets him live in a moldy apartment in Moscow; most of his cities fell without a fight. It was reminiscent of the Ghani government's last days spent succumbing to the Taliban in Afghanistan, spent in denial the whole way through.

>>24631535
>fail
The whole point of overthrowing Assad in the first place was to get rid of Russian bases and influence in Syria, both of which have failed as Sharaa almost immediately cozied up to Russia and has let them keep their bases. And while the West has succesfully gotten rid of Assad who was a pain in the ass for both Turkey and Israel; it doesn't look like what's around the corner is going to be a significant improvement given they're an extremely unstable Islamist regime in the middle of the map that both the Israelis and the Turks are going to be tied into in perpetuity.
>completely eroded Russia's influence in the Middle East
Russia not only still has Syria as an ally but has also significantly improved ties/influence with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, and has gotten a lot more credibility amongst Arabs for reverting back to a more pro-Palestinian position at the UN.
>It was reminiscent of the Ghani government's last days spent succumbing to the Taliban in Afghanistan, spent in denial the whole way through.
Yeah but the Taliban didn't let the U.S stay there nor did they have Afghanistan remain a U.S ally, both of which the nu-Qaeda regime in Syria has done with Russia.

>>24631369
>>24631530
Shut it, dumb historically illiterate neocon Christcuck. You're not following the Truth either. Being at the crossroads of important energy corridors, trade routes, and rich in natural resources like petroleum makes you a target for constant sabotage, which is more difficult to deal with in the post-industrial world. It becomes hard to separate truth from lie in an age of mass media and propaganda.
It's not like Western leaders are transparent with their motives either. Most conflict just boils down to economic dominance (e.g., IMEE-EC vs BRI and competing oil pipelines).
>>24625497
Even if Iran were Zoroastrian, it would not be your allies.
I don't see the point of distinguishing Westerners from Jews anymore just like how you people don't distinguish Arabs from Persians. Worship a Jew for 1000+ years, become a Jew.
Also, the form of Christianity that was big in ancient Iran and China was Nestorianism, which you Chalcedonian freaks would consider heretical. You did your fair bit of genocides too to figures like Arians and Cathars.

All of you talk and think like Jews. At this point, I think Iran should join forces with Israel and cull you lot. Fuck off to Twitter.

>>24631608
>You did your fair bit of genocides too to figures like Arians
>Attempt genocide of other people
>Lose the war of extermination you literally started
>Cry about it
Wow, sounds like another group I am familiar with.

>>24623032
Nepal is ruled by "Communist" parties but doesn't even follow communism in any sense or form.

>>24631631
The conflict between Israel and Iran has nothing to do with the Palestinians or even religion. It’s about competing economic interests, such as IMEE-EC vs. BRI, oil pipelines, OPEC dynamics, and so on.
They just use "human rights violations" as a pretext, which is historically common across all groups and regions. That faggot goes on in a patronizing and dehumanizing tone about truth and deceit, but many countries, past and present, rely on pretexts to pursue ulterior objectives. This lack of transparency is not exclusive to any single group. Also, America has killed millions of people in pursuit of its own hegemonic aspirations.

I see the younger generations of Westerners with their dehumanizing and radicalized rhetoric as a bigger threat than even Zionists.

>>24625256
they grow up to overthrow you

>>24631649
>a bigger threat than even Zionists
The thing is the Zionists were the ones who most flagrantly violated the terms of the postwar order while simultaneously claiming it as their own and using it to justify their actions, so in many ways they're the ones to blame the most for it crashing down.

>>24631671
Nah, Westerners have autonomy and agency too. They coordinate with Zionists when interests align: energy security, access to chokepoints, technology, and intelligence. Mutual gains include securing sea lanes (Suez, Bab el-Mandeb, Hormuz), shaping OPEC output, and hedging against regional or great-power rivals. This pattern isn’t new; great powers cut deals across value divides when strategy demands it. Rome and Sasanian Iran fought over Armenia largely to control Silk Road access and buffer zones. Iranshahr dominated key overland routes, and Roman leverage there meant revenue, influence, and logistics. Modern analogues include U.S.-Saudi oil bargains, NATO use of Eastern Mediterranean ports, and alignments around pipeline and fiber-optic corridors. The logic is stable: states trade cooperation for corridors, commodities, and coercive leverage. States are not, by and large, “truthful”; power’s own logic won’t allow it. It's all very chimp-like.

>>24625497
Iranian monarchists think this guy, one of the ugliest creatures I've ever seen is somehow an "Aryan" king lmao why does no one question how insane and retarded they are?

>>24631726
What do you think ancient Iranians looked like, faggot?

"Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid Empire."
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-99743-w

are IR 'experts' at all valuable? because at this point i'm under the impression that the world operates despite/contrary to any framing they try to force

>>24625283
>In addition, these people don't really share our values at all. They don't believe in truth or justice like we do. They bombard their people with pointless propaganda that makes them feel like eternal victims.
I think it's totally reasonable to want the U.S. to cut off Israel, but honestly I do not get that impression from Israelis at all. I do get it from American Jews all the time. But the Israeli stuff I see (in Hebrew) is mostly about how they're not victims, but are strong and back each other up and give zero fucks (as I said) about what others think (which also makes them very bad at P.R. and have horrible reputations as tourists), and if you want to get rid of them, then go try it. I'm not saying this to sound tough on the internet, that's actually what they say and the impression I get from them. They're a very brutal, direct, blunt people. I think it's also partly the Hebrew language. More this:
https://youtu.be/cjL0VI2UmMY
https://youtu.be/aYM6uV_K7B0

>These people really don't share our values.
I think that have some different values.

>They are entirely ungrateful about this sacrifice and simply kvetch about being persecuted even when they are being helped at great personal cost.
I don't think that's really true. The Tel Aviv Pride festival (of all things) had giant images of Donald Trump up after he bombed Iran. I don't know what Trump's supporters here would think about that, but only in Israel. I do think American Jews do a lot of the self-victimization stuff which is counterproductive to put it mildly, but that's also how everybody in the U.S. talks.

>Their propaganda claims to be all these great things; they claim to be so much nobler and better than their neighbors. They're not.
That's true. They do have a superiority complex.

>>24631734
This retard is ethnically Turkish, not Persian. Look it up, his genealogy is not a secret. Try again, faggot.

>>24625283
Also some Israel pop culture, turn on English subtitles. Like I was saying, blunt.
https://youtu.be/ha-8LO0seaM

>Claims to be a realist
>Wrong about reality all the time

>>24632117
what is he wrong about?

>>24631608
>I don't see the point of distinguishing Westerners from Jews anymore just like how you people don't distinguish Arabs from Persians.
This is getting off subject, but those who claim to be Jews today have no real connection to anything that existed in the First Century AD. Modern Judaism is based on gnostic heresies, and you can see that influence in the Babylonian Talmud, which was written in the 3rd to 5th century AD. These cultists pretending to be something they're not is a massive larp, which apparently you've fallen for by swallowing their claims uncritically.

>You did your fair bit of genocides too to figures like Arians and Cathars.
Again off topic. But there were always Christians who, historically and today, opposed swordpoint conversion. And these were the ones who were instrumental in establishing religious liberty in America. See Roger Williams and John Clarke for example. Pic related, as reformation-era writers recognized this.

>>24631757
I would just say deluded. Their only true hope is to abandon the false ideology that's holding them back. That's it really, there is no other workaround for this.

Otherwise they're just going to keep Kol Nidre'ing themselves into an oblivion of intellectual dishonesty. And, sadly, it will only get worse after they die.

>>24632378
>Modern Judaism is based on gnostic heresies
elaborate

>>24632378
>those who claim to be Jews today have no real connection to anything that existed in the First Century AD
That seems to apply only to the Ashkenazi. I am pretty sure Mizrahi descend from ancient Jews. I've studied a bit of the population genetics.
>Modern Judaism is based on gnostic heresies.
And your dumb cult is based on Chalcedonian heresy. It's just dumb to constantly go on about "heresy."
>And these were the ones who were instrumental in establishing religious liberty in America. See Roger Williams and John Clarke for example. Pic related, as reformation-era writers recognized this.
America was literally established by Freemasons and financed by billionaire Jews like Haym Salomon.
I honestly think brain-dead pseud Amerimutts like you are much worse than genocidal Jews.
>>24631753
Ok, illiterate faggot. Did I support the Shah?

>>24632117
I've yet to see him wrong about anything.
You going to get me banned for antisemitism now?

>>24632215
He's kind of right about Russia for the wrong reasons, and in the 90s got really weird like a lot of the other realists who were mindbroken by the Cold War ending.
However, now that multipolarity is happening the realists are relevant again.

>>24632498
>And your dumb cult is based on Chalcedonian heresy. It's just dumb to constantly go on about "heresy."
Two things. I'm using the term "heresy" in the relatively neutral sense, mainly to indicate that it is a spinoff or ripoff of something else. Secondly, you used it first. I'm just adopting your terminology.
>America was literally established by Freemasons and financed by billionaire Jews like Haym Salomon.
So the propaganda would have you believe. See the following:

>The Portsmouth Compact
"The 7th day of the first month, 1638. We whose names are underwritten do here solemnly in the presence of Jehovah incorporate ourselves into a Bodie Politick and as he shall help, will submit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and to all those perfect and most absolute laws of his given us in his holy word of truth, to be guided and judged thereby."

>John Clarke's 1663 appeal for the charter of Rhode Island, recorded in H.R. Doc. No. 546, 28th Cong., 1st Sess.
"...That they might be permitted to hold forth a lively experiment that a most flourishing civil state may stand, and best be maintained, with a full liberty in religious concernments; and that true piety, rightly grounded upon gospel principles, will give the best and greatest security to sovereignty, and will lay in the hearts of men the strongest obligation to true loyalty."

>Church of the Holy Trinity v United States (1892)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/143/457/
Unanimous SCOTUS ruling says:
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. In the face of all these, shall it be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation?"

>United States v Macintosh (1931)
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/283/605/
The prevailing majority ruling of SCOTUS says:
"We are a Christian people (Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 143 U. S. 457, 143 U. S. 470-471), according to one another the equal right of religious freedom and acknowledging with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God."

>US Constitution
>Article 7, Attestation Clause
"Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the States present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names."

"In God we trust" - The only official motto of the United States of America (officially in 1956, and used on currency since 1864)

Original 1906 pledge of allegiance: "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and the republic for which it stands. I pledge my head and my heart to God and my country. One country, one language and one flag."

>>24632438
>elaborate
I point to the dualist cosmology of Kabbalistic Talmudism, combined with direct references to the names of the gnostic entity "Metatron," from the book of 3 Enoch (as we now know) which afterward appeared in the Babylonian Talmud. Where do you think they got it? The concepts of reincarnation and purgatory that can be found in the Talmud were also taken from the earlier gnostic heresies, while they have no basis in (any part of) the Holy Bible.

The Babylonian Talmud was heavily influenced by gnosticism and it also demonstrates Persian religious doctrines of the time (which may have come into the Talmud from Manichaeaism, which itself was a syncretist religion that was influenced by gnosticism). This may be because Babylon was in the Sassanid Empire at the time of writing of the BT.

All evidence indicates that the different gnostic sects were around before Talmudism emerged, not the other way around. These different gnostic sects furthermore were predominant in the area where Babylonian Talmudism first emerged. The fact that you see crossover from early gnostic writings, many of which have recently been uncovered, only serves to confirm what anyone could have easily concluded even without those connections.

Also, Islamic folklore and beliefs were heavily influenced by the religions it syncretized as well, including gnosticism, Arianism, talmudism and so on. It may seem like these groups suddenly disappeared in the 7th century. But they didn't really disappear, they were just assimilated and brought a large amount of their ideological baggage into the early mohammadism which absorbed it.

>>24633877
Many of the Founding Fathers of America were Freemasons. This is common knowledge. America even passed Resolutions relatively recently praising Freemasons for their contributions to founding America.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/110th-congress/house-resolution/33/text
There's a reason William Morgan was murdered by Freemasons and it wasn't looked into deeply.

You're the one who relies on lie and deceit by reducing all metaphysical mystery in life to one Jew from the Levant. Damn the Holy Spirit and damn you. Kys. If there's one thing Jews have right, it's that you Christcucks are hypocritical and sanctimonious freaks.

>>24633899
Your dumb cult didn't exist until the Chalcedonian council either. All of these Abrahamic cults are superstitions. It's time to move on beyond them.

>>24633904
I wish you the best, anon.

>>24633913
Mixing religion with politics is retarded. Historically speaking, political leaders relied on religious and humanitarian rhetoric to serve as pretexts for power projection and economic domination. This is not exclusive to any particular race.

If there's one universal among the human species it's that almost all politicians (and lawyers + car salesmen) are deceptive and liars. This is not unique to any particular adherents of various religions or races. This is not some leftist crap either.

>>24633902
>resolution 33
Oh, come on.

>>24633918
>Mixing religion with politics is retarded.
These are political movements, anon. The distinction is artificial.
>This is not exclusive to any particular race.
I don't believe in genetic fatalism where, if you are born in a certain group, that means you must believe certain things.

Postmodern cynicism is itself a kind of faith, if that's even what you actually believe, anon - but it's purely misguided.

>>24632117
He's not the best but still miles better than any neocon or isolationist ever could be, especially now that we're back into the sphere of influence/great power competition meta instead of the hegemony meta.

>>24630469
Then post evidence or recant

>>24626529
Americans, Russians and Muslims. Jews too,

>>24625478
All destroyed because of Arabs und Islam.

>>24621970
Am Yisrael Chai

>>24631649
> the younger generations of Westerners with their dehumanizing and radicalized rhetoric

Who are you referring to?

>>24632378
The Talmud’s compilation started 200BC

Israël shall emerge victorious and Israel shall stay, unlike pisslam and desert demon Allah.

Thread saved for future reading and travelling Israel.

>>24635366
we know, mossad agent

>>24635392
Very good, Hamas asset. Be aware.

>>24625443
Arab Christians aren't the same as Western Christians (they're typically actual Christians) and the West shouldn't have any interest in them being protected, objectively speaking.

Israel First
109 counties
Mossad Killed JFK
Epstein
Invented pornography
USS Liberty
I’m not dying for Israel
Just noticing
Why can’t I criticize Israel
Israel is Genocidal
Israel has become a Nazi state
Netanyahu is Satan
Free Palestine
FARA
Resistance is justified
Israel persecute Christians
Jews control Trump
Jews control our Foreign policy
Jews control media
Jews want me censored
Criticizing Israel isn’t antisemitic
I don’t hate Jews, just Zionists
The wrong side won WWII
Gates of Toledo
Sampson option
Jewish supremacy

If you ever spoken these words, Just know you've been flagged, either from birth or early-mid childhood, as irredeemable cretin with hopeless future.

>>24619725
>Without realizing it, many people, who might dislike the influence that this crime family has had, have already been subverted. They are already playing into a kind of hegelian dialectic that's been set up, by accepting – without question – the central claim of identity made by these people. In reality, that claim shouldn't go unquestioned, and if you really try to break their claims down analytically into explicit and unambiguous assertions without the possibility for fuzzy definitions, the whole thing quickly falls apart. These people actually have nothing to do with the ancient Jews mentioned in the Bible. The mistake so many people have made is to not even think to question this basic assertion, which they always insist on making – but to foolishly accept their claims on face value. In doing so, anyone who tries to oppose these people, while still mistakenly recognizing them as "Jews," only becomes a supporting stereotype that unintentionally supports and reinforces these peoples' fallacious and ahistorical claims. One of their central fallacies is that they regularly make and assert an identity and heritage for themselves that they have no real, factual significant connection to.


do you have any recommended further readings that talk about this more in depth?

>>24636335
I'd recommend the three books mentioned here: >>24619858 especially the third one. The book "Judaism Discovered" gives some good starting material, making it a lot more accessible to the English reader. It is a pretty comprehensive study on the subject, whether or not you agree with some of the writer's conclusions (I agree with some but not others myself).

If you want more of a comparative in-depth study between it and the Bible (including the Torah) try the 1880 book, "The Old Paths, or the Talmud Tested by Scripture" by Alexander McCaul. I recommend that book highly for its rigor and careful investigation of the facts. Truly a forgotten gem.

And of course, the overall Christian perspective on this subject is best represented by the Bible itself. I have to say, you'd be surprised how few people have really taken the time to dig deep there compared to those who only scratch the surface a little bit but without really connecting the dots, and there's plenty of good insight (historical, moral, etc.) to be found there. While modern Talmudic belief system may not actually be related to the Biblical Jews, it is still definitely an existence among the class of "Judaizing" heresies – making it similar to Hebrew Roots, Christian Zionism, hyper-dispensationalism, and the dual covenant theology of people like Hagee, as well as some even more obscure stuff that's out there – all of which St. Paul and others denounced so strongly in the New Testament. This is of course in addition to its similarities to gnosticism, which is also denounced several places in its own right (see Colossians and 1 John for example). Hope that helps, anon.

>>24619300 (OP)
ehehe

>>24636014
Are you sarcastic or genuinely?
Israel committed some sins but not all of them and there are some explanations.

>>24625443
Any memes about how the Persians are the really competent, serious ones has surely been BTFO in the past two years, no? They got badly, badly raped on all fronts, their entire "Axis of Resistance" gaped for the world to behold.

>>24637326
Based

Communism has never worked.

>>24637326
>Any memes about how the Persians are the really competent, serious ones has surely been BTFO in the past two years, no?
The Iranians are still standing after Israel did everything possible to destroy them. They did everything short of an American land invasion and yet they're still there, while again as everyone itt has stated that Israel now has zero allies outside of the U.S due to the war, which is completely unsustainable for a small country with no resources of their own.
In theory, these would have been fantastic victories if you guys saw those tactical victories through to the end and built a lasting diplomatic solution from a position of strength, but instead you guys have doubled, tripled down on a deliberately open-ended and costly conflict.

>>24619561
surprisingly well-written, for an anti-semite

>>24637401
false

>>24637539
>Actually, Israel lost because completely militarily irrelevant Europe who can't even back down an almost comically corrupt and poorly functioning Russia is vaguely talking shit.

Just lol. Israel has fine relations with the US, China, and Russia. No one else matters militarily. They also have good relations with India, the only other country that might become relevant in the next 40 years.

>>24637573
I never claimed to be a semite, anon.

>>24638165
>completely militarily irrelevant Europe
You need Europe as a market given Israel's a high-income knowledge economy dependent on trade with other rich countries, retard. Arms embargoes from those countries are one thing, but divestment and sanctions are another entirely given Israel has a nothingburger market economy based on commerce with richfag countries, especially those in Europe. You must be one of those inbred Hilltop Youth types or a Russian Jew, because any Ashkenazi would tell you this is unsustainable and retarded long-term for a country as small and dependent on foreign trade as Israel.
>Russia is vaguely talking shit
Lol nevermind, you must not be a Russian Jew given you're completely unfamiliar with Russia's tumultuous history with Israel.
>China
They have good relations with you as long as you don't hurt their bottom line, which you have been for the past couple years. That's why they've flipped to supporting the Palestinians/Arabs/Iranians and largely sidelined or criticized you guys since 2023.
>India, the only other country that might become relevant in the next 40 years
Ah, so you're Indian. It all makes sense now...

>>24619587
As the US as a global power wanes the state of Israel will go down with it. Iran under the Mullahs will dominate the region and reestablish its borders it had during the Cyrus' reign, it's inevitable

>>24638506
based

>>24619432
>as more Americans than ever are reading up about the history of the region
>>> AMERICANS READING
yeah no

>>24640204
To be fair reading is pretty gay

>>24621006
The true horror is that a few years from now everything will be forgotten and memoryholed and people will rather be fighting over the next nothingburger of the week. Look at the Epstein Files debacle, the movement is already losing steam. People just don't care.

>>24619445
Ok so give me a reason why america needs to be a global military hegemony that isn't just AIPAC talking points.

>>24640671
>give me a reason why america needs to be a global military hegemony
In order to keep Russia and China in check, maintain our existing empire, and most importantly dominate international trade so we remain an affluent and influential country.
Israel is actually an albatross around our neck because they keep us perpetually tied into every single conflict in the Middle East when we should be focusing far more on Asia, Europe, and Africa.

Great thread, thanks guys. And the difference between the posters who are more intelligent, well-read or at least knowledgeable in some respects, and the quick low-effort thoughtless shitposters and baitposters is like night and day. It’s a wonder the thread is predominantly made up of the former, and far less of the latter, considering it’s about the Zionist lobby (or about Jews) on 4chan. Thanks fellas.

>>24641311
You're welcome.
TKD.

>>24640197
Anti-semite literally means false semite. I don't think salvation is by race.

>>24640671
Two things here. 1) I think the recent uptick in the term "hegemony" is borne of CCP talking points. I don't think of either the Cold War situation, or the post-Cold War situation, in terms of hegemony or spheres. It may be "fun" to think that way, but I don't think it's accurate.

Secondly 2) I think the world is better explained by looking at it through an ideological lens. I do not think the somewhat crazed claims that classical liberalism has been "disproven" ring true. I think that's propaganda. I also happen to think that idea once again originates where the big uptick in the uses of the term "hegemony" comes from as well. There are talking points, perhaps from the CCP or somewhere else, being seeded into the information space and other people are picking up on it, often inadvertently.

That view is basically what they would like you to think. This is because some committee of active measures somewhere thinks these ideas being bounced around give them some kind of advantage. The good thing is that they basically have no idea what they're talking about in the first place. Ideas themselves, values and belief systems, are far more important to understanding the real dynamics involved in these subjects, than thinking purely in terms of one nation versus another. The latter kind of thinking presents the world as being nothing but one monolith of millions of people, all of whom are supposedly sharing the exact same benefits, up against another. It's a really reductionist view, a naïve view because things in reality just aren't that simple. You are however free to think that way if you like, since I believe in freedom - but it won't serve to explain the dynamics going on on the world stage very well.

>>24638165
>Actually, Israel lost because completely militarily irrelevant Europe who can't even back down an almost comically corrupt and poorly functioning Russia is vaguely talking shit.
Polemic bullshit. Europe isn't fighting Russia, Ukraine is - the poorest country in Europe of only 1/3rd the size of Russia, which also happens to be comically corrupt and poorly functioning and they are doing quite fine against the "2nd best army in the world". Not to mention that European armies would fight a totally different war than Ukraine, which makes supporting Ukraine difficult. You can laugh at Europe for not having 10 million artillery shells at hand or understand that they aren't a fucking Soviet country.
Every doofus acts like war is a video game where you need stats on paper, but it has a reason that militaries take several years to integrate new technology into their armed forces. Judging European armies by Ukraine's battlefield performance is just idiotic.
But talking shit about Europe and then ending your comment calling Russia relevant shows who's talking. The videos the Russian military produces these days are utterly pathetic. But at the end of the war they will make one high-quality video of all their soldiers in fancy tactical gear interspersed with footage of their T-14s and their Su-57s and you'll lap it up and think they can take Berlin in two weeks.
Here is some polemic for you: Poland alone would beat Russia.

>>24641311
Yeah it was a pretty nice and varied thread overall.
/k/fags are finally coming out of the woodwork though now that the /pol/fags and Israeli shills have had their chance.

>>24640218
>a few years from now everything will be forgotten and memoryholed and people will rather be fighting over the next nothingburger of the week
I don't know, Israel now is a byword for ethnic cleansing and war crimes in a way it wasn't even three years ago. That's a reputation that takes a really long time to shake if you can.

>>24619300 (OP)
I like this thread :)

>>24631475
>I think the aid tampering was a huge mistake, which even Israelis seem to have admitted.
Pardon? They're openly encouraging it.

>>24636014
Your ESL grammar reveals your true identity, cretin.

>>24637539
>The Iranians are still standing after Israel did everything possible to destroy them. They did everything short of an American land invasion and yet they're still there, while again as everyone itt has stated that Israel now has zero allies outside of the U.S due to the war, which is completely unsustainable for a small country with no resources of their own.

How do you prove that Israel has lost all allies but the US? If you examine the web of IR carefully, you'll find that its most intimate ''friends'' haven't alterered their relations with Israel in any meaningful form. The UK, as one example, continues to violate court decisions by supplying it with F35 hardware. That alone dispels any doubts about a shift in allegiances.

>>24643122
Russia did the same thing and everyone already forgot

>>24645037
>Russia did the same thing
Last time I checked Russia hasn't starved Ukrainians nor have they transparently wanted to kill or ethnically cleanse all of them.
>>24645026
>How do you prove that Israel has lost all allies but the US?
The EU is currently weighing sanctions against Israel, most EU countries placing arms embargoes against Israel (which is accelerating by the day), many Western countries have been divesting from it (Norway being the most recent example), Israel routinely getting UN condemnations from these countries, and the State of Palestine now gaining recognition from a rapidly growing group of Western countries.

>>24641638
No shit Russia is a total shit show. The fact that Europe combined can do fuck all to empower Ukraine to defeat them, and has to diplomatically hide behind the skirts of the US just to offer all of 10 tanks at a time, shows what an absolutely spent force they are. Hardly anyone there says they would be willing to fight for their country even in a defensive war. Even if they can draft and train Ukrainians, they are still too chickenshit and focused on comfort and consumption to be meaningful.

They have no power projection capabilities. They had to rely heavily on the US just for ops in Libya and ran out of PGMs in a single week of sustained ops. If they tried to actually project power even as far as the Levant Israel could legit just send their tiny carrier fleet to the bottom of the ocean. Without US bases and assistance, they can barely do shit anywhere. France struggles to project into North Africa.

They are also increasingly economically irrelevant.

>Israeli official Tom Artyom Alexandrovich, head of one of the departments of the National Cybersecurity Directorate of Israel, was arrested in Nevada (USA) during an operation to catch sex offenders preying on children

>He was charged under one of the most serious articles, but soon the man was released without trial and bail, and allowed to return to Israel as if nothing had happened

>>24645167
>The EU is currently weighing sanctions against Israel
Ultimately meaningless until actual actions are being taken, don't you think? We've been at the ''words of concern'' phase a little too long to fall for it.

>most EU countries placing arms embargoes against Israel (which is accelerating by the day)
Namely? I don't believe it's cynical to determine that these ''embargoes'' are in name only and just like some sanctions against Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, are meaningless gestures to try to keep the lid on a boiling pot.
Also, courts can order as they please, but it's ultimately the government that acts. We know most governments being discussed here harbor a firm and bizarre commitment to Israel. I don't think mere court decisions will change that; the rot runs deep.

>many Western countries have been divesting from it (Norway being the most recent example)
I think this is not a punitive measure but rather a self-serving one as they see the writing on the wall. No one wants to invest in a dying state.
>Israel routinely getting UN condemnations from these countries
See previous paragraph. I think this is meaningless. You can purport to condemn something and do it anyways.

>and the State of Palestine now gaining recognition from a rapidly growing group of Western countries.
Good, and weird that it took so long.

>>24645467
>Ultimately meaningless until actual actions are being taken, don't you think?
They are currently, it's not just words anymore
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-has-become-a-problem-says-danish-pm-wants-eu-to-weigh-sanctions/
>Namely?
The Netherlands, Canada, Spain, Japan, Italy, and Belgium, while the UK and France are weighing it and Germany just recently joined those countries.
Germany and Italy are especially big blows to Israel given they've pretty much single-handedly built Israel's navy while also providing licenses for several of their more advanced weapons, while Italy itself is an especially dire case for Israel given Israel pre-war banked on the rising popularity of people like Meloni across the EU.
>No one wants to invest in a dying state.
For sure, but the idea of Israel as a "dying state" was unthinkable just 3 years ago.
>I think this is meaningless.
It is until the U.S inevitably abstains from these condemnations and Israel gets the international ban hammer hit on them like South Africa did after the U.S stopped providing cover for them in the 1980s.
Now 4/5 security council members condemn Israel while pretty much every country on earth outside of Argentina, Hungary, and the U.S oppose Israel at the UN.
Those UN votes are also good measures for international opinion of Israel, and they're now even less popular than Russia over there.

>>24645636
Germany made 5 nuclear submarines for Israel. They are an important part of the Samson Option.

>>24622393
Pic related

>>24645660
>Special place in hell
Nice category. I'd put Michael Chertoff, Chuck Schumer and Alejandro Mayorkas there.

>>24645636
>https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-has-become-a-problem-says-danish-pm-wants-eu-to-weigh-sanctions/
I will eat my words as soon as actual sanctions occur.

>The Netherlands, Canada, Spain, Japan, Italy, and Belgium, while the UK and France are weighing it and Germany just recently joined those countries.
Anon, I'm from Belgium and my government has done zilch besides gestures. The courts indeed decided that we're not allowed to be naughty and send them military wares anymore, but if the government elects to ignore these rulings it means nothing. Case in point: dockworkers are refusing to ship military equipment to Israel. How did they have the option to refuse the preparations of shipments if our government already made it illegal?

Here's my point in brief: ZOG and zog-adjacent governments will try to hold out against public opinion as long as possible while continuing normal relations with Israel (this includes shipping wares that are or can be used for military purposed) to the point of shooting themselves in the foot by arousing too much ire from the public. We've seen the UK's flagrant complicity and how Starmer reacted to public outrage by finding loopholes in order to still provide F35 parts. Starmer is a great example of a man who knows he's ruining his political career but seems to prioritise Israel more, for whatever reason.

>It is until the U.S inevitably abstains from these condemnations and Israel gets the international ban hammer hit on them like South Africa did after the U.S stopped providing cover for them in the 1980s.
Now 4/5 security council members condemn Israel while pretty much every country on earth outside of Argentina, Hungary, and the U.S oppose Israel at the UN.
Those UN votes are also good measures for international opinion of Israel, and they're now even less popular than Russia over there.

Truthpill, I hope. I haven't seen the developments in South Africa, but I can only assume it went kind of similar. What is very odd to me is that it's taking so long for countries to admit what Israel is doing. I think this is in part due to the genocide being a gait accompli and everyone is rushing in line to save face (this includes the upper strata of Israeli society which likely wants to pass the buck to Netanyahu and perhaps even keep their country as it is alive).
When leaders start crowing in unison, always assume the worst.

So the way things are going is you either become an islam-loving failed state or you do the right thing and put caravan robbers in their place.

Muslims for centuries have forced their opposition to either commit atrocities or give up and it worked very well with Western states. Sucks for them that they found in Jews a people willing to accept those terms.

>>24646749
>caravan robbers
Why do Jews frame everything and anything as if its fucking antiquity? They have a literal bronze age mindset.

>>24638896
>China
>They have good relations with you as long as you don't hurt their bottom line, which you have been for the past couple years. That's why they've flipped to supporting the Palestinians/Arabs/Iranians and largely sidelined or criticized you guys since 2023.
China still does business with Israel, possibly more business. China has its own way of doing things, it's like they basically don't see economics and business as linked with politics, so they'll criticize Israel for what it's doing to the Palestinians but it doesn't affect trade. It's like a non-interventionist approach.

I've seen some commentary in Chinese publications talking about dealings with the Arabs. Like the Chinese will make trade deals with them, and the Arabs expect that this means China could possibly replace America as the hegemon, so they start asking the Chinese about what they can do to set up military bases in the Middle East, and send troops there, and provide for their security. And the Chinese commentary is like "this is what the Arabs actually believe -- don't laugh!" They don't have any intention of doing that, and they see the expectation for a hegemon from the Arabs as a sign of an imperialized mentality.

>>24646040
>Starmer is a great example of a man who knows he's ruining his political career but seems to prioritise Israel more, for whatever reason
Starmer is married to a kikess and their spawn are all raised as kikelets. He's a member of the tribe.

Not even young Evangelicals support Israel anymore.

>>24647022
Jews are doing quite fine, living in the modern age with modern inventions and modern sociey (like not throwing gays from rooftops!). The bronze age cult you refer to is islam.

>>24647022
>They have a literal bronze age mindset.
Meaning they have a lot of bronze age perverts too. Just look at the amount of pedos taking refuge there.

>>24647771
How old was Aisha?

>>24647773
>You must be muzzie saar!!!!!
kys, i dont care how old she was.

>>24647780
You should care, because in the same breath you accuse Jews of being pedo. Ahmed... it's not looking good for you :) hezbollah is out, Iran is out, and hamas and their terror sympathizers are out very soon.

>>24647022
Everyone with muslim neighbours knows how they are. Soon enough, you will too.

>>24648030
Oops, left the hatch open!

>>24648206
Lol, Israel is fine with casualties. It seems only one side is QQing tugging the sleeves of their betters.
Only a matter of time before Gaza is cleaned up.

>>24648216
Is that why Zamir is begging Netanyahu not to occupy Gaza and the Times of Israel just published this?

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/we-are-on-the-precipice-of-defeat-former-idf-chiefs-of-staff-intel-chiefs-demand-end-to-gaza-war/

>More than a dozen former senior security officials put out a joint video with a call to end the war in Gaza, arguing that Israel has racked up more losses than victories, and that the fighting has dragged on for political reasons rather than being based on strategic military decisions.

>Among the 19 retired IDF chiefs of staff, intelligence chiefs, Shin Bet and Mossad directors and police commissioners are former IDF chief of staff and prime minister Ehud Barak, former chiefs of staff Moshe Ya’alon and Dan Halutz, and ex-Shin Bet director Yoram Cohen.

>“Each of these people sat in cabinet meetings, operated in the inner circles, attended all the most sensitive decision-making processes, the most delicate,” says a voiceover at the start of the video by way of introduction. “Together, they have more than a thousand years’ experience in national security and diplomacy.”

>In the video, the men argue that the fighting in Gaza could have ended long ago, and demand that Israel end the war with a permanent ceasefire and comprehensive hostage deal that will see the release of all 50 remaining hostages in one fell swoop.

What does it feel like to be living through the 1920s again? Are you looking forward to the 1930s? Do you kind of regret going "ahhhh it's the 1920s it's the 1920s!!!" every day since 1950, now that it actually is the 1920s again?

>>24648224
Seems like you are very happy with seeing Jews die and don't care a bit about the actual conditions of muslims... interesting :)

Luckily, your demented wish won't come true. Israeli statesmen know what they are doing. The Middle East is a much better place for Israel than it was 20 years ago and Gaza will most likely be under non-Israeli administration for the long term. Israel has learned from 2005 and simply deduced, like any nation, that Palestinians are not good neighbours. You will take them in, right, anon? That's the result of your hatred after all.

>>24648241
>Seems like you are very happy with seeing Jews die and don't care a bit about the actual conditions of muslims
I hope you go to war with all your neighbors! I hope you get a 10:1 KD ratio. You can even have a 100:1 KD ratio. Although I think your air force that can't even bomb Iran without US refueling and the entirety of NATO doing 50% of your missile interception for you (not to mention free resupply!) is surprisingly fragile and completely reliant on scarce and expensive munitions, which can only be resupplied by a country that polls show hates you more with every passing day. Also, your reservist troops are worse than US National Guardsmen, so bad that they are unique among modern militaries for not being allowed to chamber a round in their pistol (because they'll accidentally shoot themselves), and your only real infantry, the elite units, have been ground up getting used as frontliners in Gaza! So much so that they've been leaking to the press that they can't take it anymore, and sometimes even committing suicide!

But I really do hope you start another invasion of southern Lebanon. You got so many villages last time, and you did so well in 2006! Start another war with Iran, too! I'm sure the whole world will rush to give you free refueling and anti-missile defense help again! The sense I get is that all your allies are really happy with you and think that it's totally plausible that another multi-billion dollar war with Iran will do the trick this time. You've got this, Israel! Don't worry about being unable to draft the Haredim! You don't need 'em! It's going great!!

>>24648248
Which neighbours should Israel go to war with? It's over, lol. Literally game over. The only chance at peace has now been crushed, but that's not a problem because it means Israel can win even harder now it has no pretense to keep anymore.

I'm sure 365 square kilometers of rubble looks like winning to muslims as long as they take a few Jews with them, and that's why Jews came out on top in every exchange.
>he thinks hezbollah is fit to fight
If that were true then why aren't they sending rockets to Israel as they so enthusiastly did before their pager-induced PTSD? They're real quiet now -- for a reason. I suggest you to be too, if you have nothing new to add, lol.

>>24648198
>Everyone with muslim neighbours knows how they are
Virtually in the West had Muslims neighbors outside of the Balkans and Caucasus until you came around.

>>24648284
>Muslims, Muslims, Muslims!
Yes! Keep going! Fight ALL the Muslims, FOREVER! Just not with the Haredim. Don't ever let your elite units rest either. And keep parking tanks next to each other, with the hatch open, and no infantry support. The war is going great. Let's get this to day 900. Invade Lebanon too, and go to war with Iran again. You can do it! Don't ever stop fighting. Your cause is noble.

>>24648198
>Everyone with muslim neighbours knows how they are
Virtually nobody in the West had Muslims neighbors outside of the Balkans and Caucasus until you came around.
>>24647735
>The bronze age cult
Islam is from the Middle Ages, not antiquity like you guys. You guys think about everything like the Assyrians or Babylonians.
>>24648284
>Which neighbours should Israel go to war with?
You guys went to war with Syria immediately after the U.S and Turkey installed a Western-friendly government. You guys will always have an "enemy" because your elite's raison d'etre is perpetual war.

>>24648297
I know you've nothing left because you're resorting to sarcastic lines that I have already parsed in my previous posts. I hope you can cope with the reality that Israel is going to remain on the map unlike your terrorist militias. You will see what it's like to live with Palestinians soon though, if you're in a country where the government shares your sympathies.

>>24648304
>Virtually nobody in the West had Muslims neighbors outside of the Balkans and Caucasus until you came around.
Western countries imported muslims by themselves. They wanted cheap labor and got it.

>Islam is from the Middle Ages, not antiquity like you guys. You guys think about everything like the Assyrians or Babylonians.
Seems to work out eh?:)
Best HDI and life expectancy in the entire Middle East. Also the 4th happiest nation on the planet.

>You guys went to war with Syria immediately after the U.S and Turkey installed a Western-friendly government. You guys will always have an "enemy" because your elite's raison d'etre is perpetual war.
Syria's government is not Western-friendly. Its president was in ISIS.

>>24648305
Yes, that's the most important part. Try to provoke a refugee crisis with forced expulsions, population transfers, etc. Remember, to do this you have to administer it via an occupying force. Two million people. Everything is going great for Israel's reputation with the existing occupation so that will go even better. I think that logic checks out.

I can't wait. And remember, always, hatch open.

>>24648317
More sarcasm, lol.
This refugee crisis you speak of is not going to happen unfortunately. Gazans will live under rulership from other Arab states (who love Palestinians, right, so what's the problem?). If you think this is something Israel can't handle I'll inform you that existential needles eyes are its specialty, considering its crazed neighbours. Good news? Said neighbours are warming up to Israel. Maybe a little less now, but all will be forgotten within a year once it's over and you can find other things to post on social media.

>>24648332
Do you have GPT write these or do you do it the old-fashioned way, you usurious wumao?

>Breaking with PM, 74% of Israelis back war-ending deal to free all hostages — poll

>According to quotes from the closed-door meeting reported by Channel 12 and Ynet, National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich accused Zamir of not following orders and leading to a stalemate in Gaza.

>Zamir was said to have responded: “You always say there is a stalemate in the Strip. There is no stalemate in the Strip — we’re doing exactly what you tasked us with. I suggest people watch what they say about us, supposedly not doing what we were tasked with. You certainly don’t need to be reminded that we have soldiers dying in battle.”

>“Do you want a military government [in Gaza]? Who will govern 2 million people?” Zamir asked, according to the unsourced reports.

>Netanyahu was said to have yelled in response: “The IDF and the State of Israel. I don’t want a military government, but I want to move [Gazans] to a large civilian area. [I’m] not willing to leave Hamas behind in any way.”

>Zamir reportedly replied that the evacuation plan could lead to a loss of control.

>>24641593
God you're unbearable. Like most self described "classical liberals", a gratingly autistic psued.

>>24648316
>Western countries imported muslims by themselves
You think refugees from Syria and Iraq are the same as Turkish or Nafri migrants that came in the 1950s and 60s to France and Germany; especially after the EU expanded to include former Warsaw Pact and Yugoslavia countries in the 00s that infamously flooded the already saturated market with cheaper labor? Economics has nothing to do with the EU's policies on that issue.
>Best HDI and life expectancy in the entire Middle East.
That's because you blow up every other country there or make us blow them up for you.
>Syria's government is not Western-friendly
>Its president was in ISIS.
Tons of figures and factions (though definitely not all) in Al Qaeda and ISIS have long been Western assets, given Al Qaeda itself was created by the Western, Saudi, and Pakistani intelligence to fight the USSR in the 1980s. Syria was the most prime example of this post-Cold War, hell remember Timber Sycamore?
And again, you guys hated that dastardly Assad and his moderate secular regime more than almost anything else on the planet, so really you have nobody to blame but yourself if you got sour grapes over deciding Gulf and CIA-backed Islamists in charge was preferable.
>>24648405
>"classical liberals"
He's not a classlib at all, he's a neocon/neolib brainwashed by Cold War talking points rather than any actual meaningful policy points.

>>24648790
>Al Qaeda itself was created by the Western, Saudi, and Pakistani intelligence to fight the USSR in the 1980s
Where can I learn more about this?

>>24648248
This

>>24648824
>Where can I learn more about this?
Look up Operation Cyclone, picrel is probably one of the best introductory books/works on the subject though.

>>24648882
Thats a fantastic book. His recent book on the CIA's involvement in iraq is good also. The Achilles trap

>>24648790
>Tons of figures and factions (though definitely not all) in Al Qaeda and ISIS have long been Western assets
It's kind of yes but also both, and no. It's complicated. The guys in Al Qaeda had their own Islamic revivalist agenda. They fought the USSR and that put them on the same side as the U.S., but they did turn on the U.S. in the 1990s and declare war on it. Bin Laden wanted to expel U.S. forces from the Arabian peninsula. They blew up some embassies in Africa (mostly killing Africans) and then did the 9/11 attacks. Eventually the U.S. hunted Bin Laden down and killed him.

Syria's new president was part of Al Qaeda and I've heard some (fairly informed) speculation that he cut a deal with U.S. intelligence while locked up in prison in Iraq. His forces also fought ISIS while in Syria. At some point, I think he told the CIA that he didn't want to fight the U.S. and that he was against that, which is why he was never targeted for assassination, and he had Turkish cover as well while in Idlib.

Israel and the U.S. are at odds over Syria right now. Basically the U.S., Turkey, Saudi Arabia, they all like Sharaa and want a stable Syria with him in charge. Israel does not like this. Israel wants a divided, weak Syria and has been trying to make inroads in with the minorities there (recently the Druze) who fear majority rule by the Sunni Arabs. Israel even blew up the army headquarters in Damascus:
https://youtu.be/WvRO-wAaZEw

Israel wants Syria to be more like Lebanon, and they want to keep the Turks out. There's a funny paradox now where both the Israelis and pro-Iran types (Axis of Resistance, Assad dead-enders, internet tankies) are like "Sharaa bad because he's ISIS." That's while Israel was flying strike missions to help out guys who had fought in the SAA against Sharaa's guys. There actually probably four major factions in the Middle East. Some of those Druze were pro-Assad guys. You can't make sense of it thinking in terms of a black/white binary where there are just two sides. There's Turkey/Qatar, the Sunni kings, Iran/Hezbollah (and formerly Assad), and then there's Israel and "everybody else" like the Druze and Kurds.

>>24648790
>You think refugees from Syria and Iraq are the same as Turkish or Nafri migrants that came in the 1950s and 60s to France and Germany
Nafris, yes. Turks at least (in most countries) can contribute. But since Nafris cause the majority of the problems, you inadvertently admit that this is an issue not caused by Israel.

>That's because you blow up every other country there or make us blow them up for you.
I wasn't aware that the modern-day slavery present in the Gulf States was actually caused by bombings. Or the restrictions on press and freedom of expression, or the repression of dissidents in Bahrain. Damn, seems like these people can't help themselves and Israel attacking them is a response to (and not the cause of) Arabian barbarism.

Maybe just focus on your own country for once instead of pinning all the blame on Israel. Maybe, just maybe, your nation can amount to more than headlines of starving children.

>>24649230
>Nafris cause the majority of the problems
I never said or implied that. They are a problem, but are also one that was exacerbated by the downfall of Gaddafi which was long an Israeli ambition. That combined with the Arab Spring and countless wars in the Middle East that have Israeli fingerprints all over them means that you guys have had the lion's share of blood on your hands for at least the past 30 years.
>I wasn't aware that the modern-day slavery present in the Gulf States was actually caused by bombings.
Those guys are your friends lol, the secular, progressive regimes in the region like Nasser, Gaddafi, and Assad were the ones you claimed were literally Hitler and overthrew. In Libya for example both slavery and refugees to Europe exploded there after Gaddafi was overthrown.
>Or the restrictions on press and freedom of expression
You guys have killed more journalists in Gaza than we have in every single war we've fought in for the past 100 years.
>repression of dissidents in Bahrain
Those "dissidents" in Bahrain were pro-Iran lol, you're not even fucking trying at this point to engage in good faith.
>Maybe just focus on your own country for once instead of pinning all the blame on Israel.
>Maybe, just maybe, your nation can amount to more than headlines of starving children.
But I'm American, Israel is to blame for several of the international problems related to my country and is the one killing children using OUR weapons.

>>24648879
Cope more. You got gaped in front of the entire world and had to make a separate peace after having your leadership clapped in a weekend TWICE in one war lol. Maybe stop chanting "death to America" at rallies like tards and mortaring their bases in Iraq and they wouldn't hate you.

Start shit, get hit. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran found this out.

>>24649270
>Start shit, get hit
None of these regimes or movements ever started anything that wasn't in the context of a pre-existing conflict.

>>24649257
>Those guys are your friends lol, the secular, progressive regimes in the region like Nasser, Gaddafi, and Assad were the ones you claimed were literally Hitler and overthrew.
NTA but Israel didn't overthrow Nasser, he died of a heart attack while in office.

Assad was not loved. What kept him in power as long as he did was fear among Syria's minorities that the Sunni Arab majority would wipe them out, and foreign support from Russia and Iran. But it wasn't a regime that had the support of most of the people. Eventually, nobody was willing to fight for it at all.

How regimes like that could stand up to Israel is not something I've found a convincing answer to.

The basic problem of these attempts at creating secular, "progressive" states is that these were not nation-states. The people shared little common identity and weren't united around common goals. They could make fighting Israel into a thing to unite people behind these dictators, but they were internally weak regimes. The most successful Arab states are all monarchies. I don't really know why but I think they probably integrate the religious and tribal aspects of these societies a bit better.

>>24649281
>Israel didn't overthrow Nasser, he died of a heart attack while in office.
For sure, I was merely stating that Israel was extremely hostile to him and his successor to the point of waging several aggressive wars against him.
>How regimes like that could stand up to Israel is not something I've found a convincing answer to.
They can't. Israel simply grossly overexaggerates and fearmongers about their capabilities in order to get gibs from the U.S when in reality they're extremely fragile authoritarian regimes that are often open to compromise and diplomacy for that reason.
But then Israel wouldn't be able to get endless gibs from the "threat" of them now, would they?
>The most successful Arab states are all monarchies. I don't really know why but I think they probably integrate the religious and tribal aspects of these societies a bit better.
100%. This goes for most societies btw.

>>24649295
>For sure, I was merely stating that Israel was extremely hostile to him and his successor to the point of waging several aggressive wars against him.
No you didn't. You said ''That's because you blow up every other country there or make us blow them up for you.''

>>24649257
>Israeli ambition.
Citation needed.
>Those guys are your friends lol
There are no friends in geopolitics. They're smart nations that decided pursuing endless conflict with a militarized nation simply because it's Jewish is a stupid idea and prospered because of it. They're still islamic shitholes though, and I don't like them, but they're an upgrade from the islamic shitholes that want to kill Jews. This is geopolitics 101, not moralizing on the chan.

>You guys have killed more journalists in Gaza than we have in every single war we've fought in for the past 100 years.
Non-sequitur + how many (of those) journalists Hamas kill prior to and after 7 October?
Or are you seriously suggesting every single death in Gaza is the fault of Israel? Shall we place hospital beds for the fallen hamas fighters and give them better gear while we're at it?
You launch military operations from civilian infrastructure, it becomes a legitimate target. Not the assaulted nation's fault that radiostation has such a good slope for firing rockets.

>Those "dissidents" in Bahrain were pro-Iran lol, you're not even fucking trying at this point to engage in good faith.
So it's not the RIGHT type of dissident. Telling that you didn't even bother engaging with the points I made about the other nations mentioned, let alone the central theme.

>>24649434
>That's because you blow up every other country there
And they blew up Egypt several times over several decades up until Camp David.

>>24649473
>Citation needed.
I'll just link the wikipedia article for you, retard:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Libya_relations
>pursuing endless conflict with a militarized nation
They would if they wanted to given how hostile their populations are to Israel (with the exception of the UAE), the U.S however outright bribes them with gibs and diplomatic cover to keep them from doing so. It's the same reason Jordan and Egypt s regimes made peace, because the U.S pays them off.
>simply because it's Jewish
That's not why and you know that's not why.
>Non-sequitur
It was because you claimed I was a thirdie from a country that repressed rights and freedoms, when in actuality I'm a heritage American whose nation was responsible for popularizing the very concept of free press and expression.
>Or are you seriously suggesting every single death in Gaza is the fault of Israel?
The vast, vast majority of them are even according to the IDF's own statistics. And even amongst atrocities attributed to Palestinian militants a sizable number of their atrocities are committed by pro-Israel militants like the Popular Forces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Forces
>Shall we place hospital beds for the fallen hamas fighters and give them better gear while we're at it?
Yes? Because not doing so is literally a war crime according to the Geneva convention, one of those things you scream bloody murder at everyone else on the planet but you for doing?
>You launch military operations from civilian infrastructure, it becomes a legitimate target.
And yet when the U.S and Iraqis did the same type of operation in Mosul against ISIS only about 2,000 civilians were killed, not 60,000+. For fucks sake, even the Filipinos under "kill everyone" Duterte were far, far more discriminate than you guys during the similar Battle of Marawi.
>So it's not the RIGHT type of dissident
I thought you believed that the gulf monarchies were better "Islamic shitholes" than " Islamic shitholes that want to kill Jews", which is what Bahrain would've turned into from your pov had the pro-Iran guys got what they wanted.

>>24650169
Giving hospital beds to enemy fighters is not in the geneva conventions. This tells me all I need to know about the bleeding heart types who never spent a day with bellicose people around.

Basically, every retarded islamist thinks as follows:
>wahh Israel is so evil
>let’s attack civilians hehe
>wtf they are stomping us to pulp
>wahh Israel is so…

Don’t say it ain’t so. Muslims are just lesser fighters who think they’re not.

Please cool it with the antisemetic remarks. We dindu nuffin

>>24650959
you wuz heckin' good jewbois and you dindu no ephnic cleansing.