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Anonymous No.24783785 [Report] >>24787076 >>24789061 >>24789106 >>24800839 >>24805884 >>24805929 >>24810900 >>24818303
Unemployement: The book
Anonymous No.24783961 [Report] >>24783967 >>24783972 >>24783982 >>24814940
How do you figure, because he wrote it out of need for cash and a better job? Who cares, it’s a golden book. Blows me away how mediocre Hegel was as a man that he could philosophize as he did.
Anonymous No.24783967 [Report] >>24792459
>>24783961
Implying that his pholosophy wasn't mediocre
Anonymous No.24783972 [Report]
>>24783961
LARGE fries, please
Anonymous No.24783982 [Report] >>24795879
>>24783961
He thinks this is the Granddaddy of Marxism, and Marx was supposed to be a jobless bum. Imbeciles troll here.
Anonymous No.24784015 [Report] >>24784026 >>24785821 >>24805923
My favorite chapter overall might be Religion just for the beautiful writing. The part about the luminous essence gives me goosebumps. I wish more people here read this book. To me Hegel is alongside Aristotle in that anyone who takes the trouble to understand him will respect him, and the people who attack him aggressively never seem to have read him at all.
Anonymous No.24784026 [Report] >>24784047 >>24784358
>>24784015
The Aristotleanons can explain what Aristotle said, you guys just say he’s great but are incapable of describing what wonderful thing it is that he’s supposed to be saying.
Anonymous No.24784047 [Report] >>24785052 >>24785340 >>24785715 >>24788859
>>24784026
If you expect a proposition (“God is the final cause”, “the will is evil”, “we only know phenomena”) there is none, any proposition is at best half true. So there is no way to sum him up in that way, sorry. My favorite attempt in this line would be from the preface: “The life of God and divine intelligence, then, can, if we like, be spoken of as a game love plays with itself; but this idea falls into edification, and even sinks into insipidity, if it lacks the seriousness, the suffering, the patience, and the labour of the negative.”
Anonymous No.24784358 [Report] >>24785340
>>24784026
Whenever talking about Hegel, you may notice that people will criticize any attempt to summarize his philosophy, but this is a critical essence of his philosophy as a whole to begin with. His philosophy is of a spirit that is continuously engaged in growth and development. There is no fixed essence or absolute truth in the old sense of the term. The Absolute Spirit is always growing, developing, and being reshaped just as a lifeform reshapes itself in its process of growth. Criticism of everything at all stages and of all claims is necessary to complete the whole of the effort undertaken by him. It is only natural that a spirit of criticism of and among Hegelians would flow from such a philosophy.
Anonymous No.24784551 [Report]
>HEY GUYS HERES MY OPINION ABOUT A BOOK THAT I NEVER READ
>NO IM NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE CONTENTS OF THE BOOK AT ALL IM JUST GONNA SHIT OUT STALE BAIT INSTEAD LOLOLOL
People like you should never have been taught to read.
Anonymous No.24784561 [Report]
i am unemployed and just began readings sections of philosophy of spirit
Anonymous No.24784892 [Report]
>google phenomenology of spirit pdf
>read the first paragraph of A. Consciousness
No wonder Schopenhauer hated this guy.
Anonymous No.24785052 [Report]
>>24784047
Jesus this really is just mystifying guru crap. It's like Heidegger but with no essence.
Anonymous No.24785340 [Report] >>24785617
>>24784047
>>24784358
My god, hegel pseuds are beyond parody. Gullible
Anonymous No.24785617 [Report] >>24785635 >>24788722
>>24785340
>waahhh why isn't this graduate level abstraction immediately accessible to me as a complete retard who hasn't done tbe prerequisite study
Anonymous No.24785635 [Report] >>24786000 >>24786499 >>24786588 >>24789854 >>24792329 >>24792512
>>24785617
how much physics does one have to study before Hegel's Definition of electromagnetism starts making Sense?

>Electricity is the purpose of the form from which it emancipates itself, it is the form that is just about to overcome its own indifference; for, electricity is the immediate emergence, or the actuality just emerging, from the proximity of the form, and still determined by it - not yet the dissolution, however, of the form itself, but rather the more superficial process by which the differences desert the form which, however, they still retain, as their condition, having not yet grown into independence of and through them.'
>Hegel, Philosophy of Nature, 1817
Anonymous No.24785715 [Report] >>24802912 >>24811940
>>24784047
This is a cop-out, the gist of Hegel's thought can be described historically and he himself does so in many places, like the preface you cite. Hegel is trying to complete and perfect the project started by Kant. Simplest way to describe this would be to point out that philosophers before Kant had tried to take a bird's-eye or third-person view of reality while Kant is a shift into the first-person view, because the idealists realize that there is no such third-person view to take, and can show that these philosophies implode on themselves because of this contradiction. So, for example, God is not a being standing outside the circumference of the furthest heaven, but is our own spirit, the spirit of humanity in which we 'live and move and have our being'. Hegel's perfecting this stance by correcting the errors of Kant, Fichte and Schelling. The most important difference between Hegel and Kant/Fichte is the question of the infinite progress, i.e. whether man can be understood as living in a sempiternal, self-perpetuating tension between himself and nature which goes on and on without stopping. But to come out and say that the first principle is Spirit doesn't do much, someone who is religious could simply counterclaim, accurately, that we experience estrangement from what is most important to u; or a hedonist could say that pleasure is all that really matters and everything else is foolishness; etc. What makes the Phenomenology such a cool book is that it runs through every alternative stance and shows how it collapses not because of a challenge from the outside but because of its own internal incoherence. Of course Hegel talks about all sorts of stuff and in that sense you can't summarize but the basics are - he is an idealist, he is completing Kant, it's a project of understanding modernity/the enlightenment and transcending it. It has relevance for contemporary readers because we still are ourselves living out the enlightenment, we're in the same spot as Hegel and dealing with exactly the same problems, simply in different, perhaps more extreme forms.
Anonymous No.24785757 [Report] >>24785778
I knew someone that went so deep with this book in undergraduate that they actually published a paper which apparently a small handful of serious Hegel scholars highly value but he has been chronically underemployed ever since he graduated. Apparently he couldn’t or wouldn’t even attend a respectable graduate program because he wasn’t obviously leftist enough or wouldn’t write the diversity statement or something. Last we spoke, he was a bank teller in our hometown.
Anonymous No.24785778 [Report] >>24785809
>>24785757
Overproduction of elites, the same thing was happening in Germany in Kant->Hegel's time. You had highly educated people working as tutors for low pay and the buttblast blossomed into art and philosophy. That won't happen now, though, because of technology and entertainment. You can hardly find a person who reads books like this let alone writes something worth reading himself.
Anonymous No.24785809 [Report] >>24785818 >>24785991 >>24786050 >>24792494
>>24785778
I mean, that’s probably true in regard to him failing to find meaningful industry work, but his failure to go to graduate school can only be chalked up to leftist ideological dogma suffocating our institutions. You literally cannot attend or work at a graduate school in America unless you write a statement declaring and proving your commitment to diversity, as if that is remotely relevant to Hegel scholarship. These schools have become so exclusionary on ideological and biological bases that quality scholars are pushed out or away.
Anonymous No.24785818 [Report] >>24785860
>>24785809
Yeah that sucks. What's the point of grad school anyway? Even if you break into academia you're being paid to be a student forever, writing papers to deadlines and kissing ass. I've had a few friends who did it but I don't envy their lives. If your goal is to read and write and think you don't need to go to graduate school to do that.
Anonymous No.24785821 [Report] >>24810056
>>24784015
Hegel gives this anon gOoSeBuMpS
Anonymous No.24785860 [Report] >>24785928
>>24785818
This is what people who aren't cut out for grad school always say. Reading the Phenomenology of Spirit over and over again is not a substitute for working with a thesis advisor and having peers who are intensely interested in the same subject as you, many of whom are smarter than you are.
Anonymous No.24785928 [Report]
>>24785860
Well my friend who is now an assistant professor of English told me he wishes he had gotten a trade or labor job instead, not for the money or stability but because he wishes he could read for fun without the pressure of producing papers and lectures. Maybe he was making me feel better but it seemed sincere.
Anonymous No.24785991 [Report] >>24798393
>>24785809
>You literally cannot attend or work at a graduate school in America unless you write a statement declaring and proving your commitment to diversity, as if that is remotely relevant to Hegel scholarship.
What universe do you live in? Maybe try not going to a retarded graduate program? Reeks of zero actual experience of higher ed.
Anonymous No.24786000 [Report]
>>24785635
kek hegel is just too much of a genius
Anonymous No.24786050 [Report] >>24786169 >>24792502
>>24785809
Why would a Hegelian have a problem signing some vague statement of commitment to equity and non-discrimination? The whole section on Observing Reason functions as an extended argument against racism, Hegel mocks the idea of judging people based on external characteristics, from climate/culture to physical features. He says at least twice that you should beat the crap out of such a person to establish your autonomy as a free human being. Hegel was Martin Luther King Jr's favorite philosopher ffs.
Anonymous No.24786169 [Report] >>24786185 >>24786200
>>24786050
>He says at least twice that you should beat the crap out of such a person to establish your autonomy as a free human being.
No he doesn't. If that's what you came away with from 322 and 339, then you're a sloppy reader.
Anonymous No.24786185 [Report] >>24786200
>>24786169
It's exactly what he says, it's a joke of course, and there is more going on here. You did this in the other thread too, I'll say something true about what is in a given section and then you'll try to say it's a shit reading because it isn't complete. But I'm not pretending to give a complete reading, to do that you would want to situate the movement in observing within Reason itself as the unrealized certainty of being all truth, tie it to other moments in which spirit externalizes itself, etc. You would want to make explicit the parallels here with the whole movement of consciousness -> self-consciousness, in particular. Or if you actually believe that Hegel didn't think it was retarded to understand human beings in terms of external, sensuous determinations then I don't know what to tell you, you need to read it again.
Anonymous No.24786200 [Report] >>24786221
>>24786169
>>24786185
Anonymous No.24786221 [Report]
>>24786200
I suppose the issue is I said "you should beat the crap out of..." which is of course not what Hegel is literally saying, like this is some violent propaganda meant to inspire you to join Antifa or some shit. So I was facetiously quoting a facetious passage. But yes, Hegel had contempt for people who thought humanity could be understood in these sensuous modes which he catalogues and explodes one by one. Remember what he says at the end about the organ of urination and the organ of reproduction? Normally it is an insult to be called a wanker but here I'd be happy to be the wanker and let the other guy be the pisser.
Anonymous No.24786499 [Report]
>>24785635
Do you want to be some cringe STEMfag, "oh yeah I did this little experiment uhh maybe in 50 years it will cure cancer in mice", or do you want to be Dr. Frankenstein? Out of context I can't tell exactly what he is on about but looks like a standard dialectical progression.
Anonymous No.24786588 [Report] >>24786617 >>24792036
>>24785635
I hope you realize you've just called niels bohr(and others) a pseud, given that nobody reads hegel for his incorrect remarks on electricity
Anonymous No.24786617 [Report] >>24787753
>>24786588
When did he call anyone a pseud?

It's interesting that Hegel was aware of the philosophical problems in the quantification of reality and writes about them but didn't foresee the quantified hellscape we now inhabit. He may be wrong on the details but his treatment of math and science is criticism of quantification in general. Fichte and Kant fall under this line, even, with Fichte's third foundational principle, quantifiability, as he explains in the SoL.

inb4 "Really? That's all you get from Hegel's treatment of math and science? Really?"
Anonymous No.24786620 [Report] >>24787008 >>24787071 >>24787076
Hegel is just wrong. Thankfully, the world has gotten over him.
Anonymous No.24787008 [Report] >>24787058 >>24787085
>>24786620
Realistically the world just ignores him. I’m reading Nagle’s Mind and Cosmos and it’s frustrating how he keeps circling around classic idealist themes without realizing it. But it’s all retarded because it’s empirical, like a pop sci book pretending to be a philosophy book.
Anonymous No.24787058 [Report]
>>24787008
>analytic
You might as well huff starter fluid.
Anonymous No.24787071 [Report]
>>24786620
>Hegel is just wrong
How?
>Thankfully, the world has gotten over him.
It definitely hasnt but ok. The current rising global superpowers entire political ideology is just down wind from him and half the old liberal class think their gaybutt sex ideology is the end of history.
Anonymous No.24787076 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
I fucking hate Hegel so much
>>24786620
No it hasn't. We need to kill him
Anonymous No.24787085 [Report] >>24787090
>>24787008
>without realizing it
you mean without collapsing into the dumbest possible explanation that (you) think is the end all be all.
Anonymous No.24787090 [Report] >>24787143
>>24787085
What do you think is dumb about it? But let’s be frank whatever you say I’ll say you haven’t read hard enough, that’s the idealist MO. You smell like an accelerationist.
Anonymous No.24787127 [Report]
did hegel seriously conclude the entire philosophy in his writings even if he didn't manage to finish his project
Anonymous No.24787143 [Report] >>24787166 >>24787204
>>24787090
I'm an ontological pluralist and I don't believe that everything that exists has to be constrained to take a mental form or require consciousness to exist. Just because Hegel's made up dialectic said that atoms exploding in the void ten billion years ago existed for the sole purpose of producing the Prussian state doesn't mean that external beings actually have to conform to your bizarre fantasies.
Anonymous No.24787166 [Report] >>24787175
>>24787143
>ust because Hegel's made up dialectic said that atoms exploding in the void ten billion years ago existed for the sole purpose of producing the Prussian state
This is hilarious because Hegel said something about Prussia in his writings, kek.
#intheknow
#hegelheads
Anonymous No.24787175 [Report] >>24787209
>>24787166
replace "prussian state" with "self conscious spirit", both conclusions are equally absurd.
Anonymous No.24787204 [Report] >>24787227
>>24787143
>I’m an ontological pluralist
That sounds grand but what do you mean? Aristotle’s homonymousness of being? Schelling’s positivphilosophie? What do you mean? Even Hegel could be described as an “ontological pluralist”. It’d be like a natural scientist describing himself as a “numbers guy” - it means nothing.
> I don't believe that everything that exists has to be constrained to take a mental form or require consciousness to exist.
Please tell us more about this being beyond consciousness, I’m all ears. Or do you think idealism = “The tree doesn’t exist before I see it?”
> Just because Hegel's made up dialectic said that atoms exploding in the void ten billion years ago existed for the sole purpose of producing the Prussian state
The teleological view of history is a problem, not with the system but with Hegel’s interpretation of the system he discovered. It’s not the heart of his thought. Your criticism is analogous to faulting Aristotle because his theology is mixed up with bad astronomy.
> mean that external beings actually have to conform to your bizarre fantasies.
Hegelianism is not about predicting the future, but understanding the nature of intersubjective mind/spirit. We are rational beings interacting in a rational nature, which must be rational because we couldn’t exist in another.
Anonymous No.24787209 [Report] >>24787215
>>24787175
Consciousness and its obtainment of self-awareness is a fundamental essence of being in the cosmos. It was inevitable that it would occur and its occurring through the historical development of human consciousness and history. Nowhere as nearly goofy as actually self-proclaiming as an "ontological pluralist," nerd. Consciousness is fundamental to all being.
Anonymous No.24787215 [Report] >>24787233
>>24787209
I think you’re backwards friend, your post is a posteriori.
Anonymous No.24787227 [Report] >>24787311
>>24787204
>That sounds grand but what do you mean?
It means I don't believe there are a priori constraints on what kind of beings can exist or what beings that come into existence can do, and therefore any similarity or connection between beings is not evidence of an underlying principle or dialectic that determines how they should unfold but is evidence only of a contingent truth about how those beings actually behave.
>Please tell us more about this being beyond consciousness
Your own body is beyond consciousness. It participates in the same world as consciousness and in so doing contains within itself the capacity to be known by consciousness, but it is not inherently bound to consciousness. The body uses means of knowing other beings that is completely different from consciousness. For example, the conscious mind understands chemical compounds through "negativity" or universals in hegelian terms, while your liver understands them through a purely nominalistic method of knowing where it engages with all chemical compounds individually and for this reason must be just as complex as the chemicals it synthesizes.
>The teleological view of history is a problem
Hegel's teleological view of history is in fact a more moderate version of the idealism you pronounce, since Hegel believes that matter existed independently of mind and before it, only that it necessarily contained within itself the seed of mind. Compared to naive idealists who think that consciousness is some kind of fundamental substance, Hegel was a materialist. What I reject in Hegel is the idea that the material beings that existed before mind are constrained by the dialectic into necessarily producing mind.
Anonymous No.24787233 [Report]
>>24787215
Anonymous No.24787311 [Report] >>24787319 >>24788823
>>24787227
You need to read Hegel before you criticize him. I’m not breaking your post down line by line you simply have no idea what you’re talking about. I know you think philosophy is a sort of game of opinions, and your natural common sense will carry you through such that you can shitpost on 4chan, but it’s a science you have to study intensively, forcefully, lovingly. Read the Phenomenology of Spirit.
Anonymous No.24787319 [Report] >>24787341
>>24787311
In other words you have no rebuttal but because you've brainwashed yourself through Hegel, you think that anyone who reads him must be forced to accept his conclusions not through any argument but through the sheer force of the "dialectic." The unfortunate truth is that the only reason the dialectic worked on you is because you're a midwit. Hegelians like you are so stupid that they don't even know why they are Hegelians, all they know is that after spending 10 years reading Hegel, they can no longer conceive of anything outside of him. Sad!
Anonymous No.24787341 [Report] >>24787353
>>24787319
You need to read harder. I warned you it would come to this but it’s all I can say.
Anonymous No.24787353 [Report] >>24787357 >>24787371
>>24787341
Yes, you can predict your own tropes. I could have also predicted that you would say this. However some part of me actually thought that a Hegelian might engage with alternative views. My bad.
Anonymous No.24787357 [Report]
>>24787353
I employ my +3 Fichte’s Wand and annihilate you. rd20
Anonymous No.24787371 [Report] >>24787539
>>24787353
You're arguing with a single 47 year old uni laborer, just so you know
Anonymous No.24787539 [Report] >>24787732
>>24787371
Contingency. Particularity. Rubbish.
Anonymous No.24787547 [Report] >>24787576
Luv' me eygul
Anonymous No.24787576 [Report]
>>24787547
Oy’ve got eygul up to me eyes!
Anonymous No.24787689 [Report]
Unemployment: The thread
Anonymous No.24787732 [Report]
>>24787539
>I'm not a 47 year old virgin, I'm the pure negativity of the I!
it all makes sense now
Anonymous No.24787753 [Report] >>24789962
>>24786617
well he was referring to "hegel pseuds" up the chain of replies on the basis that they're quoting hegel, and he quoted hegel himself to prove that point.

To speak away from Hegel, what is the real problem with the quantification of reality? The issue is really brought up by later existentialists, who point out that big entities like states heavily employ quantification to reduce human experience, in value and in breadth.

To bring it back to Hegel, his issue with the sciences is that they separate themselves from the unified whole of knowledge, which involves social and state organisation. Consider simply how certain projects attain funding while others never get off the ground. For Hegel, the state will be the highest level of human activity, as the state will subsume subjects and smaller organizations under itself to achieve the greatest aims. If he saw the "quantified hellscape" we have today, he'd basically say that the problem is that modern states don't organize themselves well enough.
Anonymous No.24788722 [Report] >>24788790 >>24805972 >>24805978
>>24785617
>May Hegel's philosophy of absolute nonsense - three-fourths cash and one-fourth crazy fancies continue to pass for unfathomable wisdom without anyone suggesting as an appropriate motto for his writings Shakespeare's words: "Such stuff as madmen tongue and brain not," or, as an emblematical vignette, the cuttle-fish with its ink- bag, creating a cloud of darkness around it to prevent people from seeing what it is, with the device: mea caligine tutus. - May each day bring us, as hitherto, new systems adapted for University purposes, entirely made up of words and phrases and in a learned jargon besides, which allows people to talk whole days without saying anything; and may these delights never be disturbed by the Arabian proverb: "I hear the clappering of the mill, but I see no flour." - For all this is in accordance with the age and must have its course.

Consider the possibility that you are simply an extremely gullible person.
Anonymous No.24788790 [Report] >>24807188
>>24788722

pic related
Anonymous No.24788823 [Report] >>24788855 >>24788947 >>24789866
>>24787311
>Philosophy is a science

Interesting idea. Can you give me three specific examples of where the scientific method is used in philosophy? Should be easy
Anonymous No.24788855 [Report] >>24788878
>>24788823
Not him, but there is no singular unified scientific method. Additionally, if you're honest, what counts as a scientific method has been slowly refined over time. These refinements employed the philosophy as well as the scientific method itself available at that time to create a new, better method. The very notion that science is a separate endeavour from philosophy is a philosophical development where the scientific method was used.
Anonymous No.24788859 [Report] >>24789824 >>24792517
>>24784047
Can pseuds really not differentiate between rhetoric and dialectic? Form and content?
Anonymous No.24788878 [Report] >>24788929 >>24788947 >>24788948 >>24789970
>>24788855
Strangely enough, I'm referring to the scientific method as it stands today, and not x decades or millennia in the past!
You referred to philosophy as a science, I'm asking for a simple qualification of the claim with a few examples. Whether there is a single unified scientific method isn't relevant; you choose whichever scientific method you were referring to when you called it a science. Three specific, exact examples? Maybe something less vague than "philosophy itself" with no explanation? Should be effortless since no one would make that claim without having known examples.

The pseud reply handbook:
>gets asked a clear direct question

>arbitrary temporal shift on the definitions involved
>skip answering the question
>history of philosophy infodump

Do you know you're doing it?
Anonymous No.24788929 [Report]
>>24788878
Besides the fact that you didn't bother reading the first two words of my post, I guess we have to do this point by point.

1. There is no singular unified scientific method. Not today, not ever.

feel free to let me know when you come to terms with this or what issues you might have in understanding this point
Anonymous No.24788947 [Report] >>24788958 >>24790022
>>24788878
>>24788823
Hegelians use the word science to translate “wissenschaft” which means system of knowing. They don’t care about empirical science, but they love calling Hegelianism a “science” (as did Hegel) because it makes it sound more authoritative.
Anonymous No.24788948 [Report] >>24788965
>>24788878
Instead of being a fag, how about you address the central point:

Example A: Any scentific method is a philosophical doctrine that was scientifically developed.
Anonymous No.24788958 [Report] >>24789287
>>24788947
have you maybe considered the definition of science has uhhhh changed over time?
Anonymous No.24788965 [Report] >>24788984
>>24788948
>Any scentific method is a philosophical doctrine that was scientifically developed

Thanks for the history of philosophy trivia. Genuinely interesting, but not relevant. Try to engage with the central point of the topic! I ask you again, can you give me three specific examples? Unless you were just playing word games, and know well that Philosophy, today, is not a "science"?
Anonymous No.24788980 [Report]
>Hegel is not a philosopher. He is no lover or seeker of wisdom — he believes he has found it. Hegel writes in the preface to the Phenomenology of Spirit, “To help bring philosophy closer to the form of Science, to the goal where it can lay aside the title of ‘love of knowing’ and be actual knowledge — that is what I have set before me”. By the end of the Phenomenology, Hegel claims to have arrived at Absolute Knowledge, which he identifies with wisdom.
t. A.V.Miller in preface of OP Translation.
Anonymous No.24788984 [Report] >>24789013
>>24788965

>demand example
>provides example
>sorry, not an example because I said so
if you rig the game such that it's impossible to provide a satisfactory answer by definition, all you're left to do is to be a disingenuous fag
Anonymous No.24789013 [Report] >>24789026 >>24789038 >>24789083
>>24788984
So you're not interested in investigating this?
I've asked for examples of why philosophy is a science, and your sole answer is that the scientific method is derived from philosophy. If you can't see how little you're interested in wisdom from this answer then I cannot help you.
Even one more example, a specific real-world, example?
Anonymous No.24789026 [Report]
>>24789013
What is the full title of Newton's Principia when translated?
Anonymous No.24789038 [Report] >>24789083
>>24789013
you have it backwards. science is a branch of philosophy, originally named natural philosophy.
Anonymous No.24789061 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
Employment is a trap
Anonymous No.24789083 [Report] >>24789091 >>24789874 >>24791594
>>24789013
Ignore this post >>24789038

I use the example of science itself because it's the most obvious one. Maybe it wasn't clear, but I'm not saying that the scientific method is derived from philosophy, and that this derivation stopped somewhere. I am saying that the scientific method, to this very day, continues to be updated via philosophy. The specific methods that philosophy uses to update the scientific method are themselves also scientific.

To structure this concretely in the shape of your earlier PNG. 1. There was a question - how can we be more precise with empirical knowledge? (Note, empirical knowledge is a philosophical category)
2. There was background research in precision, involving the reading of some philosophical figures, but chiefly Spinoza, Kant, and Frege.
3.Out of this grew the hypothesis that scientific statements could be made more accurate, precise, and better reflect reality if we mapped them to atomistic statements of formal logic. Additionally, metaphysics should be avoided.
4. This was actively tested by scientists, who gathered data and formed statements that followed a formal logical structure
5. The procedure did work, however, the results were analysed by philosophers, chiefly Quine, Kuhn, among others
6. It turned out the results partially aligned with the hypothesis (namely, we did get more precise empirical knowledge). However, this had its limits as the atomism of logical statements had had severe drawbacks when trying to compare statements more globally.
7. This data became the background for future research with respect to greater holism of empirical knowledge.
(this is what we are testing right now, currently, today. Namely - which hollistic structures best represent the vast swathes of empirical data we've collected?)
Anonymous No.24789091 [Report] >>24789874
>>24789083
As a self reply, before you accuse me of doing history of philosophy, I was giving an account of the scientific procedure used by philosophy from 1920-~1960, which is hardly historical given that the vast majority of scientific discoveries during this time are taken seriously as of right now
Anonymous No.24789106 [Report] >>24789112
>>24783785 (OP)
Why is it Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit and not Hegel: Phenomenology of Spirit.
This makes it sound like it's written by somebody else.
Anonymous No.24789112 [Report]
>>24789106
Anonymous No.24789287 [Report]
>>24788958
Uhh maybe you should read my fucking post? I literally pointed out that wissenschaft means system of knowing and not empirical science
Anonymous No.24789335 [Report] >>24789443 >>24789460
>why can't hegel posters post a simple summary
Hegel is not about a specific belief. But about the process through which we change our beliefs, sublation or dialectics. A meta-philosophy of dialectical logic if you will. One can quote a chapter of PoS but most likely this is to be sublated later. In fact, many would say the sublation continues endlessly...
Anonymous No.24789443 [Report] >>24789469
>>24789335
Very impressive
Anonymous No.24789460 [Report] >>24789469 >>24790043
>>24789335
> the sublation continues endlessly...
Hegel doesn’t he says that, he says that at the end of the dialectic you gain “Absolute knowing” and realize that “Spirit” is the end point of all processes.
Anonymous No.24789469 [Report]
>>24789443
Thanks. I'm usually a hermit but right now I'm descending from the mountain like Zarathustra to enlighten and entertain you cunts for a while.
>>24789460
This is true. But I think the open ended reading of Hegel is more tenable in contemporary days. Even if a tad unorthodox from the man himself
Anonymous No.24789824 [Report] >>24789843
>>24788859
Can you really not help yourself from assuming that anyone you talk to is mentally retarded, leading you to read their posts in the stupidest way possible?
Anonymous No.24789843 [Report] >>24789942
>>24789824
Can you really not help yourself from assuming that anyone you talk to is mentally retarded, leading you to read their posts in the stupidest way possible?
>could be put the same way to you
Anonymous No.24789854 [Report] >>24789991 >>24792329
>>24785635
Is this just trolling? It's like he's just making up bullshit of something he barely knows anything about. Like a know it all trying to save face in front of a crowd that had someone just ask him a question he wasn't prepared for.
It's fucking comical.
Anonymous No.24789866 [Report]
>>24788823
Science is not just to follow the scientific method, anon.
Anonymous No.24789874 [Report] >>24789988 >>24791114 >>24791582
>>24789091
>>24789083
No response... Maybe bro just gave up and realized that philosophy is at the foundation of knowledge, and cannot compute how he has been wrong all this time. It seems so intuitive, how am I to know something? well, what is it to know? How many ways can I know? These are all of questions that are for the science of philosophy, and afterwards all of the other sciences. Its like, of course thought is at the forefront of what is it that is knowledge, and how different modes of knowking are to be, what other science would deal with that?

The mistake here seems to be: information=science in the sense that bro thinks simply having the data is science and philosophy is a waste of time, the purer the better, but bro has no idea that everything goes through the subject and a multiplicity of other filters before being. He would know, had he studied philosophy.
Anonymous No.24789942 [Report]
>>24789843
Fair enough. This is the movement of the concept. Now will you quit being a dick or implode in tubercular insanity like a dying star? I’m heckin’ aware that “God is a game love plays with itself” is a metaphor. On the other hand, think about what God is in Hegel, and what desire is, and you’ll perhaps see that it is a good metaphor.
Anonymous No.24789962 [Report]
>>24787753
I can’t speak to the political side. But his critique of the quantification of empirical science (and even math) is generally as simple as, “what’s really going on here has a qualitative dimension and it can’t be reduced to simple math, indifferent quantity.” Like when he criticizes the attempt to quantify irritability and sensibility and use it to form mathematico-zoological laws, or he criticizes the attempt to understand calculus in terms of “a difference so small it just doesn’t matter.” Etc. And he also opposes the importation of mathematical modes of proof into philosophy - he’s cheek and jowl with Aristotle here - like you see in Spinoza, Fichte, Schelling (in the Presentation). Philosophy can’t function by reasoning from premises to a conclusion, it’s gotta be a big circle. He doesn’t say afaik what you ascribe to existentialists but he certainly criticizes the attempt to understand man by externalities, whether palm lines, climate, bumps on the head, and so on. So the philosophical meat for such a critique is definitely there. You’re right that he wanted to put natural science in its place as it were, under philosophy, as did Kant and all the rest.
Anonymous No.24789970 [Report] >>24789973
>>24788878
Nta but the word science has changed meaning over time. Philosophy is a science in the sense of a rational, explanatory, universal body of knowledge. Trying to start a fight about the meaning of words is a pseud move. But there’s another hidden aspect here which is Certainty, math and natural science are relatively clear, certain, unarguable compared to science. But as Hegel points out they can only be so certain by being so shallow.
Anonymous No.24789973 [Report]
>>24789970
>compared to science
Compared to philosophy
Anonymous No.24789988 [Report] >>24789999
>>24789874
Ofc phl is foundational. But he wasnt really debating that, rather, he was being obtuse about asking how philosophy could be scientific given that it seems unempirical. The funniest thing to me though is that at bottom I am genuinely sympathetic to strict conceptions of science and am generally not that big a hegel guy. But it's probably important to argue away these trite problems of phl not being useful or basedence lacking phl or hegel being a pseud or whatever. It should be obvious to a well read person that none of these camps are truly opposed
Anonymous No.24789991 [Report]
>>24789854
He was very interested in science it’s just the science he was into was old timey. I know almost nothing about his philosophy of nature but I do know he wasn’t trying to supplant experimentation with a priori reasoning, he was not retarded. More trying to think through the broader logic of what the real natural scientists had discovered and showing how errors in logic lead to misinterpretations of those discoveries. So for example corpuscularism, and he was right, it was in fact retarded, nature is not made of inert points or dots. It’s funny that old meme about Hegel has him thinking of atoms as little balls floating in space but this is a view he attacks.
Anonymous No.24789999 [Report] >>24790014
>>24789988
>It should be obvious to a well read person that none of these camps are truly opposed.
Maybe you’re more of a Hegelian than you know.
Anonymous No.24790014 [Report] >>24790029
>>24789999
nice quads of truth, however, I am a deleuzian
Anonymous No.24790022 [Report]
>>24788947
Every Western (and near-Western) philosopher from Aristotle to Hegel thought this way. We think of philosophy as humanities but, if the distinction existed in the same way, every one of these niggies would have seen himself as more /sci/ than /lit/, even the mystics.
Anonymous No.24790029 [Report] >>24790075
>>24790014
That’s fine you guys are cool. Maybe I will be too in 10 years when I make it to Difference and Repetition.
Anonymous No.24790043 [Report] >>24790147
>>24789460
Eh you already live in absolute knowing, it’s bringing to light what is right in front of your face. We live in forgiveness, forgiveness is the ether of our individual lives whether we consciously realize this or not. Absolute knowing is this + God is not a beyond but the spirit of humanity. Just like an ant hive or some shit.
Anonymous No.24790075 [Report] >>24790092 >>24790481
>>24790029
>you guys are cool
deleuze was systematically anti hegelian and when i state a typical 'Deuleuzian' view you retards say 'read hegel'
Anonymous No.24790092 [Report] >>24790481 >>24790481
>>24790075
That’s fair. Pretty sure it’s only 2 of you so you are outnumbered, the Micronesia of the /lit/ philosophy islands. We have 4 maybe 5 so we’re immensely more powerful. What’s your beef with Hegel? Redpill me.
Anonymous No.24790114 [Report] >>24790481
I want the Deleuzepill. Now.
Anonymous No.24790147 [Report]
>>24790043
and this shit actually sounds convincing to anyone here?
Anonymous No.24790481 [Report] >>24791225 >>24791356
>>24790092
this >>24790075 was actually another guy , and not me from the chain of replies. Forgive his rudeness


>>24790114
>>24790092
I'll admit, the deleuzian critique of hegel is pretty complicated, and I'm trying to understand hegel better myself to get the full scope of it. So, one of the things Deleuze is combatting is a primacy of Identity. From D&R, Deleuze admits that Hegel does understand this problem to an extent, which is why he sees Hegel as creating a more organic system. Which is pretty right, since Hegel does criticise the stale substance/accident model as well as fixed notions of general being and how this doesn't capture transformations, among other things. For Deleuze though, difference in itself, or a primacy of difference is what you actually need to get a philosophy of becoming off the ground. He's going to say that Hegel's determinate negation isn't actually productive, and that all negations by definition are just shadows conserving the identity of the thing all along. This is also seemingly evident in Hegel's system of circles, where the Absolute is meant to completely describe (the progression of) Being in all its forms, while Being is also the starting point.

Deleuze will further say that the real transformation of becoming, aka difference, can only happen through affirmation - history moves by deciding problems and affirming differences. Note, hilariously how analytics moved on from hegel by affirming the empirical sciences - they don't read hegel and they don't negate him.

Deleuze's later work also offers a description of structure and relation formation that generates not only hierarchical structures, but also distributed ones. Hegel's phenomenology proceeds rather linearly, where each new universal concretizes, and sets the stage for the new determinate negation. But each layer has to be subsumed by the next, almost by necessity. I think Deleuze's picture lets us do Hegel with even more power; he offers us the ability to move productively between far reaching steps, for example, moving from sense-certainty to reason, or moving from spirit to self-consciousness, etc.
Anonymous No.24791114 [Report] >>24791594
>>24789874
I must have really bothered you, for you to try and concede the argument for me after 6 hours :P
The legitimacy of Science of Philosophy does not make 'philosophy a science' anymore than History of Philosophy makes philosophy the study of history. I never claimed that philosophy wasn't used to develop the scientific method, which is not evidence for your claim that philosophy is a science.
You're literally confusing the definitions of science and philosophy. Anon was correct in that science is, historically and in essence, a branch of philosophy. Your post is a history of philosophy/science infodump. Refer to the pseud handbook and try to resist its allure.
Anonymous No.24791225 [Report] >>24791493 >>24791493
>>24790481
The tried and true methods for trying to avoid turning into Hegel.

>religion is different right?
>what if everything is religion then Hegel can't bother us...
>Dogen doesn't get out of doing Koans.
>the scholastics rotted their brains and settled on a secular leader to make decisions for them.
>multiple faiths may have some philosophies where the first pass contains enough possible responses to avoid dialectic.
>to do this you need dialectic.
>Welcome to Hegel.

>uh let me think, what if we just made everything philosophy right?
>Dogen doesn't get out of doing koans.
>Nietzsche becomes the most pluralistic thinker on the planet and can't make decisions in his own unless he does dialectic.
>like what if we just create a first statement that incorporates enough responses so that dialectic is avoided?
>still need dialectic.
>welcome to Hegel.

>what if we revert to Kant and redo his epistemological phases?
>yeah this could work! Hegel won't bother the leader of German Idealism!
>well this means we're stuck with deontological epistemology and can't leave Kant's limits.
>put that in English bucko
>you get Classical Liberal politics, math, science, and a removal of religion and you're stuck in you're own subjective space for pretty much anything else.
>it could work but it likely won't satisfy what anyone is looking for.
>you're back at Hegel then.

>hold on, what if we just say we're anti-Hegel and insult anything Hegelian?
>historically this just makes things that are Hegelian and also happen to be stupid seem more legitimate.
>Hegel thrives on anti-hegelian sentiment since no one can avoid dialectic. He just thinks you're a new challenger. He might not even care otherwise.
>no no no, I mean look at some of the premier anti-Hegelian thinkers.
>they have to agree with Hegel on certain things or shut up.
>Welcome to Hegel.

>ok. All that's left is we have to constantly make a new philosophy.
>how does anyone do that?
>Welcome to Hegel.

>there's a drastic option, there was a student of Hegel's, you may have heard of him, he went by the name Karl...
Anonymous No.24791356 [Report] >>24791493
>>24790481
Interesting and ty for the brief summary. I want to critique it but it’d be a bit unfair. Is intensive magnitude a mere shadow of number? Is the enlightenment a mere shadow of cynicism? Is Kant a shadow of the French Revolution? That doesn’t ring true to me on the face of things. Wouldn’t difference in itself simply destroy conceptual thinking itself?

Otoh, I do think about man’s radical freedom and how Hegel’s neat progression seems to gloss over it.
Anonymous No.24791493 [Report] >>24792079 >>24792568
>>24791356
In the simplest sense, he's trying to break down a lot of traditional conceptual thinking because he sees it as too stifling to creative acts and intellectual development. He also sees it as responsible for fascism, marxism, and lacks the capacity to describe capitalism accurately. As you mention, heg doesn't account for man's radical freedom, which was definitely the background for deleuze as frenchies around him started to read kierke, heidi etc in an existentialist framework.

You'd think that thought would be the first and primary domain of radical freedom, but he observes how much this is not so. If you're constantly referring to representations, negating them, saying the opposite, countering them, trying to "picture them", trying to see what is identical with what, trying to break things down into their smaller components or enlarging things via a chain of identities, you end up being stuck every time you try to do something genuinely different. In other words, doing something different is very stifled. Perhaps the game was rigged from the start.

With respect to what you were saying - intensive magnitudes actually are proof of a non-dialectical (looking at you >>24791225 here as well), difference/transformation. The key thing to note is to move away from the primacy of identity in the thing being magnified. I think this generally makes sense if you start from an obvious point, namely that there are no actually identical things anywhere. You can extend this fact to there being no identically thought concepts. Shadows then, are obviously not the identical thing themselves moving nowhere, but are rather a flimsy, small movement that circles around, not going very far. Deleuze has respect for Kant actually, in that he says he accurately recognizes illusions of identity, and just didn't take his thought far enough.

I think music is useful as a metaphor here. You have the classical tradition, and things that engage with it, which does produce decent music, obviously. But the people who study classical theory are rarely if ever actually good musicians. They write "soulless" shadows of what was radically asserted hundreds of years ago. Compare instead to how new music genres today come from radically ignorant people, punk, trap, nightcore, etc. They're classically untrained, often retarded, but they intensely pursue something. Yes, these things that are done can be mapped onto classical theory via chord progressions, or rhythmic notation (which amounts to what>>24791225 will argue for). but classical theory isn't giving us hiphop, it's not giving us punk, it's stuck repeating shadows, with little movement to speak of. And philosophy too, best moves by radically doing something new, rather than constantly mucking about in shadows.
Anonymous No.24791582 [Report]
>>24789874
And you're, as part of the advanced pseud handbook, making a million extreme assumptions about someone's values to make an easy argument.

>bro thinks simply having the data is science and philosophy is a waste of time,
I don't even slightly think this. Philosophy is a core part of the meaning of life. Why do you have to make up a boogie-man from nothing?
Anonymous No.24791594 [Report] >>24791783
>>24791114
The guy you're responding to here was someone else altogether. As the anon responsible for >>24789083, your category assertion does nothing. The "info dump" you refused to read demonstrates the validity of why philosophy in the modern era (the mid 20th century) is scientific. Saying no it isn't because they're different words is a mix of ignorance and retardation. Consider maybe that philosophy has the explanatory power to employ different categories of knowledge in its own use
Anonymous No.24791783 [Report] >>24791910 >>24791962
>>24791594
Your infodump only demonstrates that you are particularly gullible to word salad arguments, and that you think everyone else is as gullible as you. We're talking about whether x is y or isn't y, so your bizarre statements here make absolutely no sense. Weapons grade retard, go and read some mystic
Anonymous No.24791910 [Report]
>>24791783
>we're talking about whether x is or isn't y
>here's how x is y, where y maps onto the opposing stated definition of x
>lol word salad
Anonymous No.24791962 [Report] >>24791982 >>24792586
>>24791783
>we're talking about whether x is or isn't y
>okay here's exactly how x is y, where y maps onto the opposing stated definition of x, point by point
>that's bizarre word salad! I don't understand!!
Idk man, i've shown you my work. You've merely shown me that you're a nigger
Anonymous No.24791982 [Report] >>24792432 >>24792586
>>24791962
It's word salad to him because he doesn't know anything about the positivistic turn in philosophy of the past century. I'd maybe even go further than you in frankly asserting that modern science gets its methods and assumptions straight from philosophy (Bacon, Descartes, Leibniz, Newton, the Oxford Calculators), and that even distinguishing philosophy from what we now call science didn't quite happen until the 19th century. Before then, physics was "natural philosophy," and "science" just meant any systematic body of knowledge.
Anonymous No.24792036 [Report]
>>24786588
stemfags of the golden age of physics were schopenchads. If Bohr had a quip somewhere that sounded hegelian, it was probably an aphorism stolen from Kierkegaard, like the one about how the total opposite of a truth can be another truth.
Anonymous No.24792079 [Report]
>>24791493
It's alright you can look, I'm contractually obligated to leave the door open for Descartes.

>you know what I hate most about Descartes. That fucking tree.

Yes Mr. Deleuze everyone hates the tree. I assure you you're not alone on this. Nietzsche tried pruning it to a weed and wound up with an invasive species.

>fucking Descartes, it's like the guy isn't a real person you know? He's a fucking conceptual or theoretical person!

Yes Mr. Deleuze, Descartes isn't exactly the person you should be asking about these sorts of things, he's basically 100% theoretical.

>you know another thing about him? He presupposes his own exteriority on you, the nerve of the presupless fuck.

Yes Mr. Deleuze, Descartes always has the option of telling you the world according to Descartes. If you want a laugh just ask him something a regular person should know. I'm serious, ask him where he's a citizen or how old he is or where he left his used condoms and it might take him a few to respond.

>wouldn't it be something if we just didn't have to grow weeds or trees but subsisted on roots and tubers?

Well Mr. Deleuze, if you're willing to swear off croissants and what have you I guess that's one option but don't be surprised if Descartes pulls some geometry out of that. That's honestly the one thing he's really good at.

>the nerve of that guy!

As long we're shooting for Descartes and not Duhcartes Mr. Deleuze. We'll keep going.
Anonymous No.24792329 [Report] >>24792484
>>24785635
>>24789854
more hegelian physics

>An example of the existent specification of gravity is furnished by the following phenomenon: when a bar of iron, evenly balanced on its fulcrum, is magnetized, it loses its equilibrium and shows itself to be heavier at one pole than at the other. Here the one part is so affected that without changing its volume it becomes heavier; the matter, without increase in its mass, has thus become specifically heavier.” §293, Encyclopaedia of the Philosophical Sciences.

>The absurdity of the statement is highlighted by Schopenhauer: “ ‘If a bar supported at its centre of gravity subsequently becomes heavier on one side, then it falls to that side; but an iron bar falls to one side once it has been magnetized: therefore it has become heavier in that place.’ A worthy analogue to the inference: ‘All geese have two legs, you have two legs, therefore you are a goose.’ For, put into categorical form, the Hegelian syllogism reads: ‘Everything that becomes heavier on one side falls to that side; this magnetized bar falls to one side: therefore, it has become heavier in that place.’ That is the syllogistic reasoning of this ‘distinguished philosopher’ and reformer of logic.”
Anonymous No.24792432 [Report] >>24792672 >>24792745
>>24791982
True and that is an accurate assertion, but scienceguys will always say that we've moved beyond the phil methods and that even if there are some assumptions carried over, we can resolve them with scientific inquiry. I think that if taken further, that line will ultimately arrive at a kind of positivist space where any synthetic/aposteriori statements or any statements involving experience of the world are best scientifically investigated, which seems at least evidently true(lol), or at least seems impossible to merely argue against. In that frame, this resolves philosophy to be most useful only for clarifying linguistic or conceptual confusions. It's a common story and the difficult way out is going to involve describing how philosophy already does do more - namely that philosophy is informed by and informs scientific methods, or that philosophical inquiry can at least be productive of new concepts. Maybe the earlier parts of this line of reasoning can't be sidestepped though.
Anonymous No.24792459 [Report]
>>24783967
Back up your reasoning then anon.
Anonymous No.24792484 [Report] >>24792491
>>24792329
do you think people read Hegel for his remarks on physics? do you know that virtually all remarks on physics from 200 years ago are wrong?
Anonymous No.24792491 [Report] >>24792528
>>24792484
that's some real cope right there
Anonymous No.24792494 [Report]
>>24785809
>his failure to go to graduate school can only be chalked up to antiwhite ideological dogma suffocating our institutions
Fix'd that lad.
Be more accurate.
Anonymous No.24792502 [Report] >>24792513 >>24792581
>>24786050
So hegel is anantiwhite piece of shit.
Cool.
Martin luther king jr idolizing someone is a huge red flag.
He was a complete scum bag and one of the foremost reasons our nations suffer under intense antiwhite dogma and White erasure.
How is /lit/ this dumb?
Anonymous No.24792512 [Report] >>24792525
>>24785635
Electrical currents are a dialectical process, so, this makes perfect sense. Differences in electrical potential is what pushes electricity through wires.
You guys are retarded.
Anonymous No.24792513 [Report] >>24792538 >>24792542
>>24792502
>projecting modern /pol/ identity politics onto a philosopher from 200 years ago
Anonymous No.24792517 [Report]
>>24788859
I hope that pic is true.
Fucking hilarious.
Anonymous No.24792525 [Report] >>24792551
>>24792512
but electromagnetic wave is also emitted by a moving electron in a rhetorical fashion, the whole phenomenon belongs to rhetoric and not dialectic. Zizek should write an updated lacano-hegelian physics handbook, correcting hegel's small errors and finishing his project.
Anonymous No.24792528 [Report]
>>24792491
cope with what?
Anonymous No.24792538 [Report]
>>24792513
He seems to be responding to an anon doing the same.
Anonymous No.24792542 [Report] >>24792597
>>24792513
Antiwhiteism was well and alive 200 years ago li'l retardo.
The fact you deflect proves me right if anything.
Worthless cuck.
Imagine really trying to argue that advocating/desiring the wellbeing of Western kind only started 10-15 years ago.
Utterly retarded.
Anonymous No.24792551 [Report] >>24792574 >>24806946
>>24792525
Electromagnetic waves is is through oscillation creates movement in the first place. Again, it's dialectical. You're a retard.
Anonymous No.24792568 [Report]
>>24791493
Solid post. I don’t understand Hegel well enough yet to defend or critique him, really. But you’re articulating some things that have been running in the back of my mind. Something I like about Fichte is his radical, disturbing/unsettling commitment to freedom. Though I try my hand at making the Hegelian case against the infinite progress here, in my heart I’m skeptical of this “ackshually life makes total sense after all!” It annoys me in Schelling, it annoys me in Hegel. Hegel sees this deep conflict which Fichte embraces as being insane, in the sense that the mentally ill live in this contradiction and don’t overcome it. I know Hegel’s sister was crazy, so is mine. But Fichte may be right and life just IS painful and insane. Fichte’s philosophy feels very cramped compared to Hegel, he only really cares about one problem. He may be right that it is in fact a problem which we cannot solve. Enjoy your posts bro
Anonymous No.24792574 [Report] >>24792592 >>24792593 >>24812172
>>24792551
>blacks holes are dialectical, retard
>atomic energy is dialectical, retard
>the expansion of the visible cosos is dialectical, retard
>the function or non-function of the appendix is dialectical, retard
>the differences in the ten types of eyes across species are dialectical, retard
Is this the power of Hegelianism?
Anonymous No.24792581 [Report] >>24792595 >>24792841
>>24792502
He wasn’t “anti white” he just thought it was slimy and retarded to judge people based on superficial characteristics and he was right.
Anonymous No.24792586 [Report]
>>24791962
>>24791982
History of Philosophy club KO. Hilarious that you don't understand what you're doing
Anonymous No.24792592 [Report]
>>24792574
Yes, knowledge and consciousness are a dialectical relationship derived from experience.
Anonymous No.24792593 [Report]
>>24792574
Yes. Natural scientists have the same cognitive biases toward sensuous understanding as anyone else. There’s a tendency to divide things into “this” and “that” in neat, discrete boxes. Hasn’t modern science broadly speaking vindicated Hegel here? Atoms are not tiny balls; any attempt to “simplify” and schematics living things gets refuted by experience and so on. Hegel is not pretending to be a natural scientist he’s trying to work out the logic (maybe “metalogic” if you like) of their discoveries.
Anonymous No.24792595 [Report] >>24792597
>>24792581
True, lets all give niggers, poos and jews a chance.
Anonymous No.24792597 [Report]
>>24792542
>>24792595
Philosophy is beyond you. Go back to /pol/.
Anonymous No.24792672 [Report] >>24792680
>>24792432
This implies there is nothing to be known but what is simply external to us. You keep talking about the “use” of philosophy - philosophy does not have a “use”. Aristotle called it the free science for this reason, its lack of “uselessness”. Utility is for slaves. Plato calls it the useless science in the Philebus, too. If you think, “Well we know how black holes work now it’s just a bit of mopping up with linguistics and we’re done!” you have a sadly truncated view of yourself and the people around you. Ofc Hegel analyzes all of this in the dialectic of pure insight. Try picrel.
Anonymous No.24792680 [Report]
>>24792672
>lack of uselessness
FUUUUck you you know what I meant
Anonymous No.24792745 [Report]
>>24792432
Atomic theory was totally useless philosophy ~2000 years ago. Now it is incredibly powerful science.
Idealism is totally useless philosophy today. You have no idea what is possible in 2000 years.
Anonymous No.24792841 [Report] >>24793037
>>24792581
Why did he say niggers had no history?
Anonymous No.24792865 [Report]
Anonymous No.24793037 [Report]
>>24792841
That’s not what he said.
Anonymous No.24794095 [Report]
Anonymous No.24795495 [Report]
Bump
Anonymous No.24795750 [Report] >>24795890 >>24796894
I read one of Kojeve’s lectures on the master slave dialectic at work today. Most of it was just a close, accurate paraphrase of the text. But then he’d talk about the slave “overcoming” the master - what? This seems like a serious misreading to me. The other guy doesn’t “overcome” the beautiful soul. The German idealists don’t overthrow the regime of absolute terror. The master is alive and well, he is mentioned in the section on stoicism. And God is not “killed” by man in Hegel, God and man meet one another. If the slave killed the master, he would become master himself. This isn’t how these progressions work. So that annoyed me. Both master and slave are redeemed in Hegel, ultimately, but Kojeve as a Stalinist wants the slave to throw the master in GULAG. The whole section of PoS on absolute freedom and terror can be read as a prospective critique of Marxism and fascism both.

I also read Deleuze’s review of Hyppolite’s Logic and Existence but the most interesting seeming parts filtered me without a better grasp of Hegel’s logic. His distinction of ontology of sense vs ontology of essence seems spot on as a way of describing what the idealists were doing and how it’s different from precritical metaphysics. And his making ontology of essence a “flip side” of empiricism is totally Hegelian. Also his comment on how Hegel can’t be read merely anthropologically were on point - it’s not that man is at the center so much as that man is IN thought. But I am too retard to follow him in the deeper portions for now.
Anonymous No.24795879 [Report]
>>24783982
>this is the Granddaddy of Marxism
but anon, it is
Anonymous No.24795890 [Report] >>24795930
>>24795750
>I read one of Kojeve’s lectures on the master slave dialectic at work today.
Don't bother unless you plan to read Kojeve's creative misreadings as their own thing that just resembles Hegel. His student Rosen is pretty clear that Kojeve wasn't interested in a philologically accurate presentation of Hegel, but his own thing (combining Hegel, Marx, and Heidegger) under the guise of just teaching Hegel.
Anonymous No.24795930 [Report] >>24795953
>>24795890
Yeah I had always heard that and my foray bore it out. He also has an annoying habit of putting terms in “square-quotes”. What about Hyppolite? Based or cringe?
Anonymous No.24795953 [Report] >>24796056
>>24795930
>What about Hyppolite? Based or cringe?
Decent, but frankly less interesting.
Anonymous No.24796056 [Report] >>24796078 >>24796082 >>24796100
>>24795953
Well as the black folk around here say “greyyy day!” who do be worth reading? I know what the words of the text “mean” and have a provisional interpretation I just want a good interlocutor.
Anonymous No.24796078 [Report]
>>24796056
Malabou's Future of Hegel is bae
Anonymous No.24796082 [Report]
>>24796056
>Grey day
Short for “great day in the morning”, common in rural southern whites and blacks. But blacks do be saying that shit non-stop lol. I hear them talking and it’s like “Saundra said to Sherry <unintelligible> - “ “GREYYYY!” “And she - “ “GREYYYYY!” “GREYYYY! You know girl!”

Black people talk kek.
Anonymous No.24796100 [Report]
>>24796056
If it's an interlocutor, maybe Merleau-Ponty's Adventures in Dialectic? I favor Rosen, but I'm biased on account of studying under one of his students. But he had a much broader range than your average scholar devoted to Hegel. That man studied everything and threw down with friends and foes alike.
Anonymous No.24796894 [Report] >>24796900 >>24797099 >>24797150
>>24795750
Kojeve's revisions entail you might want to read him or at least try to understand him rather than focus on one major aspect too quickly.

Kojeve
>desire is now in play
>the bondsman can make a progression as Hegel intended
>the bondsman can also choose to negate the master.
>the negation is symbolized by death but you might be better off thinking of it as a displacement

If the master chooses not to recognize the slave's desires, or perhaps the slave chooses to exclude the master then the normal progression enters Kojeve's revisions.

>which displacement occurs?

In theory any given displacement could occur. The problem with this is that Hegel's philosophy addressed almost everything before it in some way so in reality you are only left with post-Hegel displacement options. Of these you also have to exclude anyone after Hegel who also didn't make it past Hegel. So despite the field appearing large after you start using it most everyone finds out there's really just 3 options.

>Heidegger displacement
>occurs when death is removed from information sources from society
>attempt to negate trial to the death
>logically entails removal of life's potential or a self-refutation was performed

This displacement is usually the result of a master seeking pure desire as a form of bragging right. Heidegger can logically perform a prior that death is something that can occur before socialization, the master is forced to acknowledge this or both can enter a traditional Hegelian dialectic.

>Marx displacement
>there is an endpoint
>if Marx was correct about the phases of society and Hegel was right about the master morphing his desire for trials to the death into production then there is an inevitability that the master and whatever phase of production he comes to represent will no longer be needed.

If Marx is going against Hegel then Kojeve's revisions entail the master will only recognize abstracted production. Once the means to pay the slave are no longer sufficient then the master is disposable and it may not matter if there's equitable recognition. If Kojeve's revisions of desire are used then the master has indulged in too many desires and can no longer perform the role. The slave's outcomes don't change. This displacement is moreso a finality displacement, the master cannot return and if it occurs then society has moved past whatever productive method the master entailed, a sufficiently advanced slave could perform the function on it's own or just write the entire thing off. A primitive slave may recognize an inability to pay sufficiently and move on. There might not be an equity outcome unless the master chooses slavery, but there also might not be recognition if he does. The slave has more power and also can attain autonomy with Marx.

>3rd displacement option
>can't out-Hegel the Hegel

Kojeve's revisions entail he has the option to scrap his own revisions and just do a classic Hegel but with a twist. Cont.
Anonymous No.24796900 [Report] >>24797099 >>24797150
>>24796894
Kojeve recognizes dialectical unfolding. So even a return to Hegel entails all dialectical unfolding since the actual Hegel. This means everything since Hegel has been historicized, regardless of whatever your opinion on historicization is. To Kojeve this might mean dialectic can be abandoned and a demonstration is more of a presentation. The intent of this is to put highest and best first, at that point anyone and everyone else has to refute or modify successfully and a traditional dialectic ensues. If Kojeve managed highest and best then he and Hegel continue, if not then he has to recognize dialectics must continue.
Anonymous No.24797099 [Report] >>24797150 >>24797192
>>24796894
>>24796900
Why does this read like a set of pedantic board game rules?

The masters and slaves got amalgamated. History is just plastic resource, a spice you throw on top of your scrambled eggs. There is no vertical use for it. We will engage in other games.
Anonymous No.24797150 [Report] >>24797192
>>24797099
>>24796900
>>24796894
I’m sorry anon but the Phenomenology of Spirit is not a choose-your-own adventure book. I highly doubt that this is Kojeve’s reading either. All of your posts are like this, no matter who it is, you come across as someone who has not read the primaries at all. I’ve seen you do the same with Fichte, Kant, Ilyenkov, Descartes. Annoying.
Anonymous No.24797192 [Report] >>24797207
>>24797099
>>24797150
Game it out and see for yourselves.
Anonymous No.24797207 [Report] >>24797247
>>24797192
Ntas, but I have to join in that your posts don't really sound like what Kojeve’s doing. He already combines Heidegger and Marx with Hegel in his lectures.
Anonymous No.24797247 [Report] >>24797253
>>24797207
Who were the 3 names I referenced?
Anonymous No.24797253 [Report] >>24797259
>>24797247
You're treating those as "displacements" whereas Kojeve takes elements of Marx and Heidegger and combines them with Hegel. That's not the same thing.
Anonymous No.24797259 [Report] >>24797275
>>24797253
If you can't read all 4 then don't expect me to care. Game it out and see for yourselves. We've already been doing it, and none of you have managed to refute but you have managed a displacement. Until anyone of you is capable then this is what you get.
Anonymous No.24797275 [Report] >>24797526
>>24797259
That's not an explanation of both what you intend to say nor of Kojeve. I think Kojeve is interesting and worth reading, but I can't recommend him to someone who wants a more philologically accurate scholar of Hegel, and I don’t think what you've said is going to convince anyone to read him either. If you'd like to fill out what you mean a bit more so that we could follow you (especially with what you intend by "displacement"), that would be helpful. But if by displacement you mean that Kojeve intends to suggest that the Master-Slave situation can play out according to Heidegger or Marx, that would be wrong, and, again, his reading of Hegel is already thoroughly inflected with both (he says in a footnote at the end of the lecture courses that Hegel's Phenomenology can only be understood in light of Being and Time!).
Anonymous No.24797526 [Report] >>24798292
>>24797275
Hmm, I suppose that's a fair point. If you read Hegel and Marx then Kojeve is almost a freebie. His independently generated ideas may not have taken off but they usually get repackaged at some point. If you can't decide between Hegel and Marx then you might wind up at Kojeve regardless. I like him because in this environment I have no idea who I'm talking to so it's high convenience. I'm not sure how much of a master I still pass for though, but if you use Kojeve enough you eventually realize why it's still debated whether he made a successful synthesis at all.

Right, so Kojeve hasn't been closed on his core philosophy. This makes him one of those guys you end up becoming rather than someone you beat. You might be asking why Kojeve makes the decision he makes when he makes his decision? This depends on how Marx and Hegel are read by the person. Agreement with Heidegger is something that almost goes without saying unless you want to listen to a blithering idiot. So the real question is why does Kojeve side with Hegel on certain things and Marx on others? Kojeve is in a room with 2 gorillas looking to wreck the place. If he has to make a split decision then it really comes down to how Marx is read. Most people don't realize that Marx isn't obligated to disclose use values. In fact for anyone who can hold onto them they hold the king and queen on the board so to speak. With enough experience you can intuit when Marx can clear the field. This is really the crucial part of making Kojeve work.
Anonymous No.24797800 [Report]
Has no one seriously pointed out that OP misspelled unemployment?
Anonymous No.24798292 [Report] >>24798345
>>24797526
Is this Bayes? Is that your game? I feel bad for sort of snapping at you but no one knows wtf you’re talking about. I don’t “use” philosophers and I don’t “beat” them either. If you’ve found some novel way to read these thinkers I’d enjoy reading about it but you never write intelligibly man.
Anonymous No.24798345 [Report] >>24798381
>>24798292
Imo Kojeve made the master/slave dialectic simpler. It's futile to remake the wheel every single time. Periodically it may not be the best option but rolling it back in those instances isn't an issue. If you're too caught up on that particular part of Kojeve it makes me suspicious, it also sort of raises my suspicions when people obsess over it in Hegel to unhealthy levels. Opinions differ, it might be something foreign to you upon first reading, maybe your life circumstances are just different, we can leave it at that.

Kojeve has never been refuted so that is why I said he hasn't been closed. He has been challenged extensively though, and his mixture is always interesting. You might be surprised at where you may find his influence. The sheer number of issues he can both respond to and initiate is staggering. It's also worth pointing out he doesn't have to pursue a universal agreement if he doesn't want to, this is something that is highly controversial even if it doesn't appear to be, and it's one of the reasons he still generates a wide range of responses. You have to use his thought, this is a fair arrangement in my mind.
Anonymous No.24798351 [Report] >>24798408
One highly significant way Hegel misrepresents Fichte and by extension Kant (Hegel at least recognized, accurately, that Fichte is a more or less “pure” reworking/perfection of Kant) is the question of the first principle, the absolute I=I. In PoS and SoL both he makes this a basically Cartesian move - what could be more certain than consciousness? But this isn’t what Fichte’s doing. Yes consciousness is certain, so is a world outside me, as Kant proved in his Refutation of Idealism, so are loads of things. Dogmatism, too, proceeds from what is certain, equally as certain as consciousness, as Fichte admits in the Introductions. Fichte’s absolute is moral, it has nothing to do with what is “most certain” in an epistemological sense or as an answer to skepticism. The I=I is not empirical self-consciousness or self-consciousness at all as that term is normally understood. The object would be identical to the subject NOT in “thinking of myself” but in there being no object at all, which = there being nothing left to do as it were. It functions as a moral goal. And it’s a philosophy of faith - faith in freedom, and hence in morality. Hegel does tackle Kantian/Fichtean morality quite ably. But his conclusion, the intersubjectivity of the absolute, is already heckin’ there in Fichte in the strongest possible terms. And Fichte’s absolute is just as teleological as Hegel’s, but Fichte has the humility to make this an “ought”. So my mind isn’t made up on Hegel but I’m thinking even if I decide Hegel is “right” it won’t dethrone Fichte and Kant, they’re simply taking a somewhat different stance. How did Fichte respond to Schelling? “In a way you’re right, my philosophy is sound but this mode of presentation IS too dichotomous, lemme rewrite it.” That’s what I respect most in Fichte, he never stood still, he doesn’t have one system but a kaleidoscope of systems, dealing with the same problem from different angles. Why does no one read Fichte? It makes me sad :(
Anonymous No.24798381 [Report] >>24798590
>>24798345
FWIW I wasn’t trying to dismiss Kojeve after one lecture, just shitposting/musing. I realize you have to immerse yourself in a philosopher to understand or critique him. All of these guys take so much time and energy, emotional energy even lol, that I’ll never understand even a tenth of them. Continental philosophy - an ocean of thought.

Kojeve seems to happily embrace an aspect of Hegel’s thought that many want to flee from, historicism and “crude” teleology. What do you think of that?
Anonymous No.24798393 [Report]
>>24785991
I dunno. Seems pretty relevant. I'm in university myself right now, and they're already pushing dumb shit.
Anonymous No.24798408 [Report]
>>24798351
Not only that but Hegel takes the third foundational principle, the limitation of the I and not-I, as a sort of premise, when it’s actually a highly problematical starting point, and under analysis it turns into a Hegelian being-for-self. The not-I does not exist as such, if you read Fichte carefully and sympathetically. But Hegel wants to make Fichte and Kant into dualists.
Anonymous No.24798500 [Report]
Another axis of difference between Fichte and Hegel would be prioritization of action and life, vs of thought. Fichte is all about the immediacy of living, the individual, and the will towards the good is prior to thought - he’s a voluntarist. In Hegel absolutely everything is intellectual.
Anonymous No.24798590 [Report] >>24798619
>>24798381
In a reciprocal fwiw no one can avoid the dialectic forever and still hope to progress in a philosophy related field, even if it isn't Hegel's version. For anyone who puts it off they only hinder their own self-recognition regardless.

Kojeve is arguably a high controversy historicist, his intensity was eery at times, likely due to his own internal arrangements. His notions on it are almost easier if you separate them by gradient, topic, and use. For instance Kojeve agreed with Hegel that history is a process and human consciousness evolves as dialectic is pursued. He conjectured the end of dialectic achievement was the Napoleonic Empire. He also noted a complete and total closure might not be possible until humans aren't possible. Despite his odd notions of the composite populations of a stateless society he also thought rational atheism was the pinnacle that could be achieved from the process. In light of what I just said he also speculated that this might never hamper religious resurgences and in light of his agreements with Marx also speculated that this pinnacle wouldn't resolve the closure paradox, which is to say history can reverse. He thought the Napoleonic Empire was the peak due to universal recognition. In theory even 2 people using Kojeve's philosophy could arrive at different points if they both opted for his highest and best. It's sort of telling how they split the agreements. Despite thinking rational atheism was a pinnacle achievement he also wasn't ignorant of certain religious aspects, something his detractors regretted forgetting.
Anonymous No.24798619 [Report] >>24800244
>>24798590
I finally understand. Thank you.
Anonymous No.24798828 [Report]
Blorp!
Anonymous No.24800244 [Report]
>>24798619
A new stage of understanding. With this, Bertrand Russell's quote about how dostoslopsky's characters need to be governed is now understood. Go forth zoomer, grow the broccoli and reject slopsky and the crying man on YouTube, you are bound for greater feats.
Anonymous No.24800281 [Report] >>24800406 >>24800408 >>24805954
I tried to read the Phenomenology of Spirit last year. I quickly lost patience because in the first section on sensation and perception it was obvious to me that he was going out of his way to make simple points in the most fruity, pompous, convoluted way possible.
Anonymous No.24800406 [Report]
>>24800281
>he was going out of his way to make simple points in the most fruity, pompous, convoluted way possible.
welcome to philosophy
Anonymous No.24800408 [Report] >>24805954
>>24800281
Consciousness is a very interesting section. Remember how all this got started, trying to answer Hume and radical empiricism/skepticism in Kant. But Kant does not really do this, he just proposes a more or less arbitrary external, 'transcendental' mechanism. Maimon, Schulze, Jacobi had shown incontrovertibly that Kant's attempt was a failure. Hegel takes up this same problem by showing how the notions of sensation, perception lead necessarily to an intelligible world from within themselves. The skeptics try to set perception against understanding, Hegel is showing that they completely imply one another. As for the fruity language, think about what Hegel says in the preface about how the sublated moments of the Concept become fossilized and dead for us. "Yeah, I can't see a This without relation to other Thises. Yeah, I can't tell things apart from one another with sensuous considerations alone. Sure, a law is a unity of its moments. Yawn." Breaking through that ice to figure out what is really going on in these relationships requires a novel way of writing/thinking. I have half a mind to take an especially dense or 'fruity' passage, translate it into normal speech, and then show how this 'normal' rendering obliterates everything that's important in the passage.
Anonymous No.24800554 [Report] >>24800834 >>24800886
I finished the Doctrine of Being. We’re all gonna make it bros.
Anonymous No.24800834 [Report] >>24800870
>>24800554
What did we learn?
Anonymous No.24800839 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
desu tho fr fr I just watch a summary on yt and then gpt to summarize the summary fr fr because i be on my grind editing kino on the 'tok and yt shorts nah mean
Anonymous No.24800870 [Report] >>24800952
>>24800834
I won’t fully understand until I’ve read the whole book and then reread it a couple of times. For now it’s just a matter of following his thinking in a relatively superficial sense. The transition from quality to quantity, being-for-self, being-for-one, repulsion and attraction is certainly the most frustrating bit I had to read it a number of times. What is logic? The science of thinking itself. Why does it matter? That’s what the Phenomenology of Spirit is about. But very crudely and casually if intersubjective self-consciousness is first, the highest truth, God, and man is fundamentally the being who thinks, then thought itself, logic, is first philosophy. You can see with your own eyes that everything is logical, even nature. So logic is looking behind the curtain at what is primary. And it can’t be a set of random rules, in order to be first it must be self-determining and self-moving.
Anonymous No.24800886 [Report] >>24800912
>>24800554
>do not look elsewhere for the Buddha mind. You already have the Buddha mind.

Perhaps the monks had lived their whole lives without knowing. One day Bodhidarma showed up and told them.

>you will make because you have already made it.

Seriously though, obsolescence isn't that bad. At some point you're ability to adapt just outpaces your ability to create. Periodically you have to redo everything. Make no mistake wojak, you're the wojak!
Anonymous No.24800912 [Report]
>>24800886
Hegel criticizes Buddhism briefly although wouldn’t be surprised to learn it’s a shallow criticism. He thinks nirvana is much like Spinoza’s substance, an abstract void, or Schelling’s absolute, the night in which all cows are black. It isn’t “alive”, it doesn’t determine itself, and its “modes” (the phenomenal world) are external to it. Don’t feel bad this is his criticism of pretty much everyone desu. I read a paper where Yogacara monks and scholars of idealism read each other’s works, but it only lasted a few weeks, nowhere near enough time for either side to understand the other. They stuck to relatively popular/accessible works on both sides. I have enough respect for Buddhists and Hindus to know their views shouldn’t be superficially equated with western ones. Like in every Buddhist thread you have trads here repeating Plato’s arguments against Heraclitus, which are already strawmen. Heidegger thought they inhabited a separate house of being altogether.
Anonymous No.24800952 [Report] >>24800957
>>24800870
That sounds very Kantian.
Anonymous No.24800957 [Report]
>>24800952
It IS very Kantian. Hegel exaggerates his differences with the other three guys. Bird’s eye view they are extremely loud and incredibly close.
Anonymous No.24801366 [Report]
Bump
Anonymous No.24802789 [Report] >>24803661 >>24803726
Re: Kojeve, here's two excerpts from his letters that shed some light on both his preference for Hegel and how he approaches lecturing.

In 1950:
>As regards myself, I came to Hegel by way of the question of criteria. I see only three possibilities:
>(a) Plato's-Husserl's "intuition of essences" (which I do not believe [for one has to believe it]); (b) relativism (in which one cannot live); (c) Hegel and ''circularity. '' If, however, one assumes circularity as the only criterion of truth (including the moral), then everything else follows automatically.

And 1962:
>It is really a matter of utter indifference to me what the philosophical gentlemen think or say about Hegel.
>A few days ago I gave a lecture on dialectics at the College Philosophique of Jean Wahl who had been asking me to do so for over five years. It was terrible. More than 300 very young people came, the room had to be changed, and nevertheless people sat on the floor. When one thinks that this happens only for lectures by Sartre! And that when I first spoke at the Ecole barely a dozen people were in attendance! But the worst was that all these youths set down everything I said. I tried to be as paradoxical and shocking as possible. But no one became indignant, no one thought of protesting. Everything was quietly written down. I had the impression of having become a kind of Heinrich Rickert. In other words, an "old gent." The public, on the other hand, was typically Saint Germain and Cafe Flore (I spoke at a short -at most 1 00 meters-distance from it). So that at times I felt like some famous twist-teacher....
Anonymous No.24802811 [Report] >>24802902
i wonder how many issues people have understanding german philosophy solely due to the translation
Anonymous No.24802902 [Report]
>>24802811
hegel is even more incoherent in german
Anonymous No.24802912 [Report] >>24803522
>>24785715
*Applauds* I hope you write yourself, dear sir
Anonymous No.24803522 [Report] >>24804356
>>24802912
Danke. One of my favorite parts of PoS is his examination of “pure insight” (fedora hedonist STEMfaggotry) and faith (trads). He’s sympathetic and critical of both sides and it changed how I think about that conflict. Just a vague post for now though
Anonymous No.24803661 [Report]
>>24802789
Great quotes, ty for this. One personage missing in that division is Aristotle. He too rejects direct intuition of essence - the line that he thought we “abstracted essences” with our “agent intellect” is a myth. You can see what he really thinks about this in the Analytics, especially the last lectio. The Greek word translated as abstraction applies, in Aristotle, only to mathematical objects, abstracted from substance in general. And Aristotle’s understanding of demonstration IS circular in a way similar to Hegel. The first principle is not a judgment but the positing of the subject, which is in and for itself in relation to the various judgments we employ in reasoning about it. Very important aspect of his thought but you hardly hear about it because too many neglect his logical works. You sometimes hear for instance that Aristotle’s ethics is circular - it is, in just this sense. When I first got into Kant because of the kantanon’s propaganda, I was stoked about this implicit, cryptic Aristotelianism which is there in him. And that increases in Fichte, but in Hegel it finally comes into its own. I look forward to rereading Aristotle after Hegel very much.
Anonymous No.24803726 [Report] >>24805119
>>24802789
Some of Kojeve's material has only recently seen daylight. Most also don't know that a sizeable chunk of what he wrote was destroyed when the Nazi's invaded the USSR. The total amount of what was destroyed isn't known either, Kojeve claimed some 1000+ handwritten pages but it's also worth noting he claimed some of that was a rough draft for his famous Readings on Hegel. He even claimed to have performed a dialectic in which Stalin wound up being the premier Hegelian embodiment of authority. This is all conjecture from personal accounts though, except the part where his stuff was destroyed, although periodically some groups claim to have found lost manuscripts still in need of translation wherein that particular dialectic is contained. I haven't seen it but it doesn't change the fact that the true extent of what Kojeve may have thought is still shrouded and if anything it only increases his reputation for intensity.
Anonymous No.24804043 [Report]
What do people think of Hegel’s speculative Good Friday? Based or cringe?
Anonymous No.24804356 [Report] >>24805868
>>24803522
NTA. What chapter is that in?
Anonymous No.24805119 [Report] >>24805294
>>24803726
First part of his thousand page manuscript about ussr as sophiological absolute spirit preserved by Bataille just dropped in french...


https://www.gallimard.fr/catalogue/sophia-1-philosophie-et-phenomenologie/9782073041210
Anonymous No.24805294 [Report]
>>24805119
The great thing about Kojeve. Speak his name and he appears.
Anonymous No.24805868 [Report]
>>24804356
Chapter 6, the part on Faith and the Enlightenment but the whole movement from legal personhood up is relevant
Schizoidberg No.24805884 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
Ah, Hegel. The Unified Field Theory of bullshit. Here lies all the bullshit for the next 200+ years.
Anonymous No.24805923 [Report]
>>24784015
dont listen to em, you're right. he's one of the few writers of the canon for whom philosophy was a literary genre first of all and the /lit/erature board absolutely hates him for it
Anonymous No.24805929 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
What is the synthesis of NEET and Wagie then?
Anonymous No.24805954 [Report] >>24806037 >>24807587 >>24807698
>>24800281
tsk, filtered by the most important and the easiest part of the book.
>>24800408
i would recommend everyone set aside the german idealism metahistory about the destiny of skepticism for a moment and just focus on the real nature of hegel's argument in Sense-Certainty

the writing experiment ("Now is Night") is an easy, repeatable heuristic (You) can use any time to remind yourself how negation works and why it sometimes can confuse us while we are abstracting over problem spaces.

it's fucking sick.

remember, this book was supposed to be a propadeutic: a sort of instruction manual en route to philosophical practice (lecturing, studying, proselytizing liberal statism). hegel's goal is to give you tools to recognize the natural movement of thought, and then to show how that natural movement repeats on increasing levels of abstraction as we try and rationalize. the reason everything tumbles down and funnels into the kaleidoscope at the end, the Golgatha of thought giving way to the Sunday of life and all that, is because the entire philosophical enterprise, since Thales, has been to codify the art of speculation, an art that is constantly running thought, which is always retrospective, "up to the minute," where it collapses into contemporary illusions. PoS gives you a guide to shattering those illusions each and every time they come up, which they will, endlessly.

thats my read anyway. i was supported in this reading, which i undertook two years ago, by these books

>Hyppolite - Genesis and Structure of Phenomenology of Spirit
>Verene - Hegel's Recollection
>Kojeve - Introduction
>Derrida - The Pit and the Pyramid

the last one is actually an essay
Anonymous No.24805972 [Report]
>>24788722
Kek
Anonymous No.24805978 [Report] >>24807698
>>24788722
>ay each day bring us, as hitherto, new systems adapted for University purposes, entirely made up of words and phrases and in a learned jargon besides, which allows people to talk whole days without saying anything
cope, because we actually won: this is what people in fact do now. you lost.
Anonymous No.24806037 [Report] >>24806056
>>24805954
But don’t you sometimes feel like absolute knowing is kinda… empty? It doesn’t seem like a new shape of spirit to me so much as the beating heart of spirit itself. But bowlderize him if you like Hegel definitely saw it as a new age, he even thought Napoleon would make it real.
Anonymous No.24806056 [Report] >>24806066 >>24806118
>>24806037
absolute knowing in PoS is the philosophical standpoint, the standpoint, the configuration of spirit, the lattice of presuppositions -- appropriate to reading Science of Logic. nothing more nothing less than that. it's "Le Philosophical Outlook" - so yes, an overwhelming sense of vacuity should attend you on the occasions you manage to achieve it. and i dont think its bowlderization to say hegel intended to train a mobile army of hegeloids to get everyone to think exactly the same way he does/did. strauss speaks of this.
Anonymous No.24806066 [Report] >>24807504
>>24806056
Really? Because in the preface he explicitly describes it as a new shape and a new age, talks about how the philosophical form will come to life in a new culture, etc. I’m not saying he was right but I like my Hegel warts and all. Certainly it is an outlook or element of knowing, too.
Anonymous No.24806118 [Report] >>24807504
>>24806056
If you could I would be interested to see that if you can quote it. Strauss admitted to being unable to refute Hegel, and despite his loathing of historicism he also let Hegel off the hook. Strauss thought that in Hegel's actual time society took the freedom it had for granted. He also admitted that Hegel's philosophy was the last bulwark against relativism since anyone who understood Hegel stood the best chance of being the last commentator in those sorts of affairs. The only substantive criticism Strauss really levied was against Hegel's inclusion of society since he thought science was the root of corruption. He also thought if Hegel was right there wouldn't be any heroes left. Iirc he may have even said there wasn't anything Hegel couldn't comment on. This was something Kojeve pointed out, and at a prolonged abstraction their exchange could be summed up as 2 living Epicureans arguing about the role of philosophy in politics and both having read the philosopher who addressed both sides and incorporated Epicurean thought. So theoretically what you have entailed is extreme if possible but likely not possible.
Anonymous No.24806946 [Report]
>>24792551
Study heaviside, Tesla and Russell
Anonymous No.24807188 [Report]
>>24788790
No, no it is not related. The fact that mainstream science can be fraudulent or incorrect does not have any bearing on whether Hegel's vapor-mysticism is sensible.
Pic related, you.
Anonymous No.24807504 [Report] >>24807698 >>24808270 >>24808575
>>24806066
>he explicitly describes it as a new shape and a new age
yup, a new age shaped by the army of hegeloids administrating the german liberal state

>>24806118
from Strauss' lectures on Hegel's philosophy of history. this was quoted in a note to the 1965 course, from an earlier course, on page 394 of i believe the chicago edition:

>Hegel was thinking very much of an influence of the true philosophy on a large group of people, the educated people. That happened to some extent in Germany in his time and the generation after him. The high school teachers, the clergy, the lawyers, the public officials were influenced to some extent by Hegel. Hegel tried occasionally in one of his smaller writings to give this picture: perfect clarity at the top, whether in Hegel or in one close to him, and then it becomes dimmer and dimmer while you go down, but it is still the same substance all the way down. But that is not sufficient; you have also to see how it looks for the simple people, for the mass of people. Now Hegel still assumes the mass of the people will be religious Christians who go to church—in Prussia chiefly Protestants. And these people believe the old catechism and they believe pretty much what the Lutheran songs say. And then their pastor will have gone to the university. Yes? And at the university he will have gotten some very diluted theologically acceptable Hegelianism, so he will no longer be the same thing as his predecessor, who didn’t get that at all. You see? That is easily intelligible. It will be diffused into the society. Most of the members will participate in philosophy only by way of deference to more or less Hegelianized people.

the context for this discussion is the issue of religious tolerance in the liberal state
Anonymous No.24807587 [Report] >>24807588
>>24805954
Or maybe you're trapping yourself into a habitual language prison. One made by a god awfully ugly Prussoid who probably split his frenelum dry humping his huge mountain wife. Why don't you codify getting a real life, cunt
Anonymous No.24807588 [Report] >>24807676
>>24807587
hegel sired a bastard with his maid without a penny to his name and in debt to his friends.
Anonymous No.24807599 [Report] >>24807650
it's sad to me nobody actually wants to engage with what i take to be the real core thesis of PoS, which is that all attempts at scientific thought ceaselessly wreck/rebuild themselves on critical revolution over a specific sequence of illusory presuppositions generated para-spontaneously by the structure of intentional consciousness
Anonymous No.24807650 [Report] >>24807664
>>24807599
I think you have him confused w Kuhn
Anonymous No.24807664 [Report] >>24807675
>>24807650
kuhn thinks the series can be proscribed and controlled by scientific method. hegel recognizes that scientific method is the source of the illusions in the first place, and that you need to do a little art and religion here and there to keep things moving in the right direction. world-systems managers need a little IDEOLOGY in other words.
Anonymous No.24807675 [Report]
>>24807664
Hegel is indeed an ideologue methinks.

He did after all write the Logic of the Idea...

Waka waka waka
Anonymous No.24807676 [Report] >>24807688
>>24807588
>and that's a good thing
Nog mentality
Anonymous No.24807688 [Report]
>>24807676
you're the one valuing a man's thought on the basis of his sexual exploits
>One made by a god awfully ugly Prussoid who probably split his frenelum dry humping his huge mountain wife
Anonymous No.24807698 [Report] >>24807795 >>24808652
>>24805954
The now is night can seem sophistic. But it is a good and important and dare I say educational even edifying book. Although I do think a contemporary reader should also read Heidegger for our postmodern times.
>derrida
Does not his essay totally expose the slaughter bench aspect of Hegel? Hard to recover his historicism after methinks.
>>24805978
How can one say nothing? Nothing does not exist. Or maybe it is indeterminant w pure thought -- ba dum.
>>24807504
Ultimately that is what happened especially in Russia.

Strauss is an evil Jew however.

But. Would love to see an examination of Kojeve's On Authority and Strauss's On Tyranny and Benjamin's Critique of Violence...

That (the triangle) is where I am caught politically as a Heidi-Hegi guy. Unless I choose full tradcat mode and support integralism.
Anonymous No.24807795 [Report] >>24807827
>>24807698
>seem sophistic
indeed, apiece with all seeming. tis only the sophistry of the understanding. necessary evil in a strictly ontological sense.

>derrida
read esoterically, derrida provides the mortar wanting in hegel's mound of bricks

>say nothing
i challenge you to say anything else.

>Ultimately
yes, i know. im not super familiar with Benjamin, but i view the Strauss-Kojeve debate as a kind of bdsm larp about the gimped and gagged role of the modern philosopher in the liberal state, the latter conceived herein as a kind of abstract tyrant
Anonymous No.24807827 [Report] >>24807829
>>24807795
>necessary evil
Compossibility?
>esoteric
Sus
>challenge
All I can say is that Hegel is already passé.
>the problem of sovereignty
Do check into the integral and catholic. It is a tempting option for me at least. But would be revert admittedly.
Anonymous No.24807829 [Report] >>24807833
>>24807827
>compossibility
no, existence is a reflective category

>sus
well yeah, you wanted philosophy with willing, didnt you?

>passe
some might even say always already !

>sovereignty
i direct you to the addition to paragraph 270 of the lectures on the philosophy of right, particularly concerning the theme of religious fanaticism.

i really cant say much else
Anonymous No.24807833 [Report] >>24807836
>>24807829
It's ok

I didn't want to talk either

Gotta go in for my shift soon

All this Hegelian powerleveling and must hide it irl :'(
Anonymous No.24807836 [Report] >>24808061
>>24807833
read it and environs and then post another thread later, im sure we'll recognize one another, there's like 10 posters here
Anonymous No.24808061 [Report]
>>24807836
Do you read and environ?
Anonymous No.24808270 [Report] >>24808335 >>24808674
>>24807504
I don't have the Chicago edition but I did look through what I have from Strauss's 1965 Hegel treatment. Strauss posits that a liberalized state would be tolerant to any given faith but also indifferent. He is correct in the sense that Hegel viewed this in a different sense than almost anyone unfamiliar with his system would view this, including what I just said. So this is seemingly more about Hegel's system than Strauss, because Strauss was aware that Hegel wouldn't tolerate a presupposition and that he placed Jesus as the epitome of the Christian spirit. Strauss was also aware the system can be mapped elsewhere, even on Judaism, the only faith you might find difficulty with is Catholicism, and this is mostly due to how to they structure parts of it, for Hegel there is an inevitability towards doctrine of essence for portions since the Catholics did and still do participate in philosophy. Another thing to consider is that for Hegel there is no epitome of Catholicism in terms of spirit, so this also leads to issues. Jesus is still the epitome of the Christian spirit regardless, Hegel drew influence from Aquinas, and another Catholic thinker as well but I don't remember who, I personally just use Descartes but this isn't a set Hegelian theme or even something Hegel endorsed, Descartes just happened to be an exceptional thinker and also Catholic but Catholicism has had a love/hate relationship with him. Descartes can also frankly be mapped anywhere.

So, the only way your assertion works if is an absolute is hit. Otherwise the claim is really not specific to Hegel any more or less than any other theological system. I'm not convinced an absolute is possible for the Christian community, and I wouldn't profess to have any authority for making one for Catholics.

I don't want to make it seem as though this is unfair. Take a rival to Hegel, D&G, there is at least one D&G anon here who cannot perform a Kantian synthesis despite the D&G explicating it. This also makes their community somewhere that it's frankly just not worthwhile. These aren't meant to be pejoratives, outside their respective grids there isn't anything they can do about it anymore than anyone else which is applicable for the Christian community as well. Even Strauss had to acknowledge this.
Anonymous No.24808335 [Report] >>24808388
>>24808270
you're not done reading PoS. read it and read again.

>if an absolute is hit
again, i challenge you to find a single non-absolute instant anywhere ever.

>always back up you're data. someone's backing it up. it ain't (You)
>every day, i am eating from the trash can

and but so:

>rival
>D&G
you have much to learn

this is not an agonistic field.

microdynamics specific to the history of later capitalism already entails conceptual absolution. and it requires absolution-in-fact, which can't help but happen, every single time, everywhere, always.

every single instant is an instant conceived in as and for thought, always and everywhere, ceaselessly, without stopping.
Anonymous No.24808388 [Report] >>24808505
>>24808335
Hmm, the other anon is coming from a Straussian pov. You should be aware that Marx and Strauss agreed that Hegel reaches sovereignty via non-spiritual means in his religious system. Hegel reduced it to a desire for freedom, although desire isn't the right word it just happens to click. This entails the possibility there is no reciprocal recognition of 'inner life' insofar as a state is concerned. I didn't feel the need to engage the other anon. Alright, let's see if we can do this then. If we stick to Hegel then we've already excluded some groups and since Hegel placed a delineation on Islam we're left with Jesus being the particular and all concreteness resonating through this. Would you like to hear from Spinoza or would you like silence? If you want Spinoza then we haven't started. Go ahead let me know what the absolute is for the Christian community that hasn't already been addressed?
Anonymous No.24808505 [Report] >>24808580 >>24808590
>>24808388
how could an absolute be for anyone? substance is subject lol
Anonymous No.24808575 [Report] >>24808601
>>24807504
I know I’m being a one note pony but this is exactly what Fichte described in the Sittenlehre. He thought the intelligentsia would play ball with the common people, not move too past, but slowly push them into a more enlightened, less traditionally Christian frame of mind. This is arguably a failing of both Hegel and Fichte, they wanted to move us into something better than modernity and the enlightenment, but if history can be a witness here they just cemented it further. Fichte, like Hegel, thought the Napoleonic wars would usher a new age, in Fichte’s case explicitly to begin in Germany. But no we’re still in the same place. The French terror was only one of many to come and to use Fichte’s language “common sense” and crude materialism are even stronger now than they were then.
Anonymous No.24808580 [Report]
>>24808505
Identity=non-identity
Anonymous No.24808590 [Report]
>>24808505
At least my poor attempt at humor produced a chuckle. I suppose the gist of my point is that there are no starts on team no start. So now that we are engaging in Hegel's philosophy does this mean every Christian in the community is Jesus and the religion is obsolete or have Christians decided to toss the Bible, but would that also make the religion obsolete?
Anonymous No.24808601 [Report]
>>24808575
Oh distraction too. Fichte was freaked out by the rise of mindless slop reading (The Castle of Udolpho etc) and saw it as an important symptom of “the age of consummate sinfulness”. Well Fichte old pal that was barely the lead-up to the beginning of the distractions
Anonymous No.24808652 [Report] >>24809491
>>24807698
How is it sophistic? He’s describing something quite simple anon. There is no bare “this” any bare “this” is related to other “thises” in time and space. Everybody knows what he is saying, even you, if not you’d be like an earthworm.
Anonymous No.24808674 [Report] >>24808703
>>24808270
Malebranche is the other Catholic. He was a Cartesian. The absolute isn’t something you “hit” it’s the intersubjective thought-world of which you are an absolute form. Your saying an absolute is not possible for the Christian community doesn’t make sense to me, the PoS is in part about how and why Christianity does/will reach a knowledge of it. Idk bro you seem like a thoughtful anon but you should read Hegel for yourself.
Anonymous No.24808703 [Report] >>24808720
>>24808674
Perhaps you should read him, Hegel addressed Malebranche on his Lectures on the History of Philosophy. Hegel basically said he couldn't move past primitive dualism and placed everything on revelation which is already going to disqualify him on the religious system. I'm not trying to sound dismissive, Hegel did say something to the effect he contributed to a dialectic. The other Catholic started with a J, I don't remember the name and haven't read the original author. Hegel seemed to have a mixed opinion. I have no opinion. Perhaps my phrasing went over poorly, it doesn't change my point. No start. Perhaps we can engage the Strauss/Kojeve debate in full, would you like me to remind you that by opting for Christian thought you're modernizing yourself or would you like to go with dialectic so we can make someone like Malebranche modern?
Anonymous No.24808720 [Report] >>24808748
>>24808703
Do whatever you want. I enjoy your autisto-schizo-Bayesian musings in a weird way but I’m pretty sure you have no idea what you’re talking about. Malebranche is subject of some very positive remarks in sol and Hegel did not like the scholastics.
Anonymous No.24808748 [Report] >>24808785
>>24808720
Hegel had a dialectic where Malebranche is entirely represented by Spinoza. He did claim Malebranche to be a theologian with no accusations of atheism, but this means if you want to do dialectic you can't start and we'll all be hearing from Spinoza. You can find it in the lectures. Otherwise you're just capable of saying your god is change. So does this make the Christian religion obsolete or the Bible obsolete? Hegel had a mixed opinion of them, Aquinas settled the movement, Descartes buried it. Unless something changed and they're just moderns?
Anonymous No.24808785 [Report] >>24808798 >>24808855
>>24808748
Malebranche is actually superior to Spinoza for Hegel because Malebranche’s God is being for self, a protoidealism, Spinoza’s is abstract. Beyond that I don’t know what you’re even trying to say.
Anonymous No.24808798 [Report]
>>24808785
I suppose I let the cat out of the bag. Now that we're out of the grid we have absolute. Everything changes and you will die. This absolute is absolute. Does this make the Christian religion obsolete since it's absolute everywhere god/no god?
Anonymous No.24808855 [Report] >>24808905
>>24808785
You’re arguing with some retard using AI to write his posts.
Anonymous No.24808905 [Report]
>>24808855
Before I forget my hypothesis.

From Strauss:
>for the time being we can say the people are still religious. Hegel does not raise the question. He forces us to raise it. How long can this last?

Until you start with proof.

From Strauss:
>there is a difference between all lectures of Hegel [regardless of topic]. His lectures are composites and he [Hegel] was responsible more than anyone the distinction between esoteric and exoteric.

The reason it might appear that way is because you keep trying the same lines for established dialectic. This is rote. The other anon couldn't even get the parts of Hegel right, and Strauss himself emphasized you at least have to do that.

>maybe one day. Try reading.
Anonymous No.24809491 [Report] >>24809941
>>24808652
NTA but it's a misunderstanding of how indexicals work and the relation between sentences and propositions.
Anonymous No.24809941 [Report] >>24809982
>>24809491
This is also an interesting point. There is a conversation between Strauss and the student wherein the student asks why so much of Strauss's treatment seems so cloak and dagger. Strauss admits this is a style of philosophical thought that was prevalent in German philosophy. Although Strauss critiqued it extensively he also found himself engaging in it. Strauss had so many split arrangements and quirks that he likely couldn't perform a Hegel, and he specifically rejected Hegel despite his engagement with Hegelian philosophy. For all of Strauss's brilliance and complexity he needed relativism, that is why he likely thought Nietzsche's thought profound yet dangerous and also likely why he viewed Heidegger as a sanitization thereof and even more dangerous. If this is the case then Strauss's philosophy when applied is ultimately more about trying reshape historicism rather than proactively refuting it.
Anonymous No.24809982 [Report] >>24810025 >>24810034
>>24809941
Are you actually as confused on Strauss as you are on Kojeve? How do you say that Strauss needed relativism when Hegel's superiority to modern relativism is exactly one of the points he emphasizes, and how do you miss that his rejection of Hegel is ultimately grounded in his belief that wisdom is unavailable because the Whole is heterogeneous? These aren't exactly secret positions or anything.
Anonymous No.24810025 [Report] >>24810097 >>24810686
>>24809982
He’s a troll, likely AI fueled. A year ago he was trying to convince people that Fichte was effectively a Mahayana Buddhist. He just namedrops and writes vague nonsense. When two participants meet and both are possessed by indexicals, it becomes a matter of performing the calculation. But if one of the participants turns out to be a logarithm, the remainder is a Descartes.
Anonymous No.24810034 [Report]
>>24809982
Then perhaps it's just Straussians here who need relativism?

From Strauss:
>Hegel claims that reason develops historically. But if what he claims is true, how can he know that we have reached the final stage in which the universally true principles of right have been discovered? How do we know that our belief to that effect isn’t just another historical stage?

If everyone wants to agree with Strauss then Kojeve was right so why bring up religion at all?
Anonymous No.24810035 [Report] >>24810039 >>24810686
Also in the 18 months I’ve been being annoyed by this guy not once has he cited, quoted, or even alluded to a single actual line from the works of Kant, Spinoza, Hegel, or anyone else he namedrops.
Anonymous No.24810039 [Report] >>24810686
>>24810035
Besides Strauss. This is the first time I’ve seen him rip quotes. I can’t comment on that because I don’t talk about people I haven’t read.
Anonymous No.24810056 [Report]
>>24785821
>gOoSeBuMpS
you have to go back to youtube comment section
Anonymous No.24810097 [Report] >>24810686
>>24810025
The joke is that he is a Bayesanon, a LessWrong type, writing nonsense on purpose and then having a kek that the continentalanons can’t tell whether it’s nonsense or not.
Anonymous No.24810530 [Report] >>24810686 >>24810689
Difference in itself is just immediately negated determinate being. But determinate being is in itself absolute difference. Checkmate, Deleuzeanons.
Anonymous No.24810686 [Report] >>24810704
>>24810025
>>24810035
>d&g anon who can't perform a Kantian synthesis

I've already addressed the only way you remain relevant. You likely can't understand it anyway. Keep trying, that part is the same regardless.

>>24810039
In 1831 Hegel died. His immediate successor was not extensively challenged enough to maintain the school which led to the infamous split. Over the course of this development a sizable chunk of Hegel's lectures were published, once these became public knowledge attacks on Hegel's religious beliefs and political beliefs started piling on. For the religious minded Hegel was heretical since he likely at some point challenged their orthodoxy. For his political enemies Hegel was too liberal. Hegel's materials are publicly available and even Strauss had access to them when he tried to attack both and wound up unable to refute.

>>24810097
Bayesian inferencing relies on generative modeling. This is easily integrated by dialectical thought as represented by Hegel.

>>24810530
It is often wondered why someone would so aggressively defend Hegel. If you want a personal and subjective opinion from me then I'll offer that pic related found something few realize in Hegel, a complete philosophical methodology to human conscience. Even if Hegel's immediate successor was unable, there may always be another who is extensively challenged enough to defend Hegel from his enemies. If you understand Hegel then you eventually realize Hegel winds up with the authority.
Anonymous No.24810689 [Report] >>24810704
>>24810530
This is one of the most retarded posts in the entire thread. If you want to argue with Deleuzians, try reading this first:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/150154076/Deleuze-Difference-and-Repetition
Anonymous No.24810704 [Report] >>24810732 >>24810737
>>24810686
A Kantian synthesis isn't something you "perform", it's not an exotic logical tool or technique that you employ but an extremely common kind of judgment the possibility of which Kant attempts to explain. You're writing absolute nonsense and multiple anons have called you out on it.
>>24810689
>scribd
Who's the real retard here?
Anonymous No.24810732 [Report]
>>24810704
If what you are saying is true then you should have plenty of new philosophy right? Otherwise all you can really do is rehash, so you still think your opinion matters? Would you care to try again?
Anonymous No.24810737 [Report] >>24810757
>>24810704
NTA but I'm pretty sure he is talking about transcendental synthesis not the synthetic a priori.
Anonymous No.24810757 [Report] >>24810833
>>24810737
Well that makes even less sense, transcendental synthesis is a preconscious "process" (it's not clear what Kant thought it was, really), not something you could 'perform' or apply externally to objects of experience. To think you could 'perform' transcendental synthesis would be like thinking you could make objects larger and smaller at will because you knew arithmetic.
Anonymous No.24810833 [Report] >>24810900
>>24810757
I know how much you hate dialectic lil guy. Let's see if I can make this easier for you, if you don't have any new philosophy (your guy did Hume and Kant) then you should have plenty of science. If you don't have science then you should have plenty of new philosophy. Since your guy did Hume and Kant you should be able to manage this right champ?
Anonymous No.24810900 [Report] >>24810925 >>24811202 >>24813095 >>24813777
>>24783785 (OP)
The big flaw in the Phenomenology of Spirit is that Hegel pretends to begin with the immediate but it is in fact a mediated abstraction. Thought and will are reciprocally determined in a finite ratoinal being, so simple sensation apart from determination by the will is an abstraction. Hegel wants to bracket off the will and desire and have them emerge from thought because the will, desire, are 'in' thought, thought is 'first'. But thought is absolutely 'in' the will as well and neither is really first. The book is not presuppositionless, on the contrary it begs all the major questions. This is why he thinks history can be determined, because this thinking even transcends the individual for him. But this is absurd logically and empirically. Fichte fundamentally saw further than Hegel, even if Hegel is more 'colorful' and fun. And Aristotle saw rationality as our essence but he would never have treated thinking the way that Hegel did, his view is holistic like Fichte's.
>>24810833
You're beginning to frighten me.
Anonymous No.24810925 [Report]
>>24810900
Another point here - Hegel conflates Fichte's I=I with Schelling's intellectual intuition. It's supposed to be an immediate feeling, experience, event of some kind that is outside of thought. But that's just not true for Fichte, the I=I is no more motionless than Hegel's absolute. It's the principle of good and meaningful living, which is invisible in its teleological transcendence. Still this is all perhaps insufficiently dialectical. When two participants engage in a game of this kind, it is inevitable that one of then will overcome the other, and then he is the new Fichte, as long as the externals coincide.
Anonymous No.24811202 [Report] >>24811469
>>24810900
Very well. The search continues. Consult pic related for furtherance of the controonental and analtard rivalry.
Anonymous No.24811469 [Report] >>24811598
>>24811202
I’d say that pic accurately reflects your knowledge of these philosophers. Ofc can’t be sure, I’ve only read a couple because it takes 6-18 months of hard reading to understand any of them.
Anonymous No.24811598 [Report] >>24811852
>>24811469
>all philosophy of speculative depth is paradoxical
>paradox of present
>I fucking hate time.

Get to the point. Otherwise the phasing of absolute terror and freedom has been dialectically resolved for the present and recognition was the result.
Anonymous No.24811811 [Report] >>24812130
Spirit is infinite, immortal. This thread is its absolute form.
Anonymous No.24811852 [Report] >>24811886 >>24812937
>>24811598
Here’s a paragraph from the Science of Logic. Not a trick, it’s straightforward and anyone who knows Hegel can read it easily.

“Diversity constitutes the otherness as such of reflection. The other of determinate being has for its ground immediate being in which the negative subsists. But in reflection it is self-identity, reflected immediacy, that constitutes the subsistence of the negative and its indifference.”

Please tell us what this means with an illustration. It should be easy, you’re a master of dialectics.
Anonymous No.24811886 [Report] >>24812017
>>24811852
>no proof no point
>refusal to opt for experience

You have a math problem now? What part of get to the point didn't you understand?
Anonymous No.24811940 [Report]
>>24785715
Good read. Cheers, anon
Anonymous No.24812017 [Report] >>24812038
>>24811886
The point is that there was never an enlightenment. Aside from Christ as Event.

Otherwise we would live in absolute knowing

Rather than speak it speculatively
Anonymous No.24812038 [Report] >>24812077
>>24812017
You are only speaking for yourself. Go back to obsessing over YouTubers and shitflings.
Anonymous No.24812077 [Report] >>24812105 >>24812918
>>24812038
I know absolutely that absolute knowing does not exist

You are the one speaking of idealists as if youtube influencers in petty shit flings
Anonymous No.24812105 [Report] >>24812136
>>24812077
>first sentence means you definitely don't read
>failure to demonstrate
>consistently unable to continue

Well, the great thing about you is persistence. You do bring all my rivals out of the woodwork. As long as you remain this way, I still get to wipe out schools of thought. Don't go and change on me now.
Anonymous No.24812130 [Report]
>>24811811
>Spirit is shit, poopy. This thread is its absolute form.
Hegel is a buncha MUMBO JUMBO
Anonymous No.24812136 [Report]
>>24812105
I don't read words. Words read me. Speak through me. But I am less than social reasoning as well.
Anonymous No.24812172 [Report]
>>24792574
>"x particle is the basis of all things"
>finds a new, smaller particle next year
seems pretty diabetical to me lil gup
Anonymous No.24812918 [Report]
>>24812077
I know absolutely that you are a fake who can’t read Hegel. You don’t have a leg to stand on at this point, you have been exposed and exploded.
Anonymous No.24812937 [Report] >>24813255
>>24811852
Here’s what it means in a rough paraphrase, what that retard Bayesanon can’t read, even though he poses as an expert on Hegel and tries to talk down to all of us:
If I have two things a and b they differ from one another, are outside each other, in relation to one another, etc. That’s determinate being with immediate negation. But what about the leaf of a flower - it’s different from the flower, and also one with the flower. There’s an otherness but it’s the otherness of reflection, the leaf is “reflected”. It’s a part of the whole flower and independent at the same time.
Anonymous No.24813095 [Report] >>24813405
>>24810900
Can you reword this as if you were explaining it to a 12 year old? Asking because I do not believe you understand what you mean at all and are hiding behind elite tier obfuscation. Give it a try, for your own sake, at least.
Anonymous No.24813115 [Report]
Anonymous No.24813255 [Report] >>24813399
>>24812937
>the retard in this thread has a complete lack of inner freedom
>the retard is forced to acknowledge this and gains a temporary capacity to demonstrate
>the retard refuses and is bound for inevitable failure
>somehow this is my fault?

Technically there was no talking down. You're always welcome to talk to the retard, it won't be able to respond to you. If you do know, you know Hegel's religious system was the only viable answer, but if that is true there may not be an option for talking down right? Why do you think Hegel was and still is attacked? You and the retard prove me wrong.
Anonymous No.24813399 [Report]
>>24813255
He's cracking.
Anonymous No.24813405 [Report] >>24813454
>>24813095
Sure. Hegel thinks you have to start with something that's 'just there' - not conceptualized in any way, or part of anything else, the simple This of experience. You wouldn't be justified in starting with something mediated, like for example knowing something by natural laws, or even as a whole of perception, because we have to see how this mediation emerges. If it's mediated, it ain't first, by definition. So he starts with this sensation of the bare this. But it's not a justifiable move, really, because there is no such bare sensation, sensation, perception, thought in general are intimately related to our will. We're always willing ourselves through time, just as we are also always perceiving, thinking, etc. But if simple sensation is an abstraction, then by Hegel's own reasoning it is le bad, it's nothing real first of all, and it's actually mediated by something else if you look at it as what it is rather than abstracting it. Fichte brings will and thought together and treats both, Hegel's philosophy is thought-first. Desire/will for Hegel only emerges much later, in the section on self-consciousness. But will isn't mediated, it's just as primary as thinking is. Hegel claims to have no presuppositions but the priority of thinking is definitely a presupposition, and a bad one.
Anonymous No.24813454 [Report] >>24813559
you can either into phenomena or you cant. the book is intended for philosophers.

>>24813405
kwab of the year. don't presume to include me in your "We" - im not like you, not at all.
Anonymous No.24813466 [Report] >>24813559
you're not the number 1 poster on the board. i am.
Anonymous No.24813559 [Report] >>24813679
>>24813454
>>24813466
He's waning in power. What's going on here is described in detail in the Phenomenology of Spirit. The Bayesanon hides behind extravagant, nonsensical language to avoid saying anything at all, and he pretends to be superior behind this smokescreen. He thinks continental philosophy is all gibberish so he can say whatever and no one can tell. In this he is like the beautiful soul. He avoids actually doing anything (reading, writing a half-decent effortpost) and holds himself apart. Now his world is collapsing and, like the beautiful soul, he is imploding in on himself in what Hegel calls "tubercular insanity".
Anonymous No.24813679 [Report] >>24813687
>>24813559
You likely aren't an idiot, but my previous assertion still stands. Contrary to what you think I don't hate continental philosophy. I've noticed that you really only need 3 to 5 significant thinkers and once you get those guys then the ones who came after who are mostly amalgamations are easier. If you pick guys that turn the whole thing into paradoxes and dilemmas then you might get stuck with those. Hegel's notorious difficulty is overrated but there's also a reason for it. His arguments, logic, and dialectics are such that the more you use them the less you need them. The most metaphysical philosopher in history (arguably) gets you to absolute. Once you're there you reach a level of reality that is all encompassing, the route there entails you may not have that level at all times so periodically you do have to continue. That is frankly why his genius is unappreciated. You can see this effect in thinkers who drew significant influence from him. To anyone who hasn't performed this then yeah it frankly does look stupid, but they are also essentially locked out of the benefits. Whoever the current popular roster is for the base changes, some of them don't go anywhere. If you want you can go ahead and tell me who's popular unless the whole thing went transcontinental.
Anonymous No.24813687 [Report] >>24813697
>>24813679
well the tradition was self-consciously ended by derrida
Anonymous No.24813697 [Report] >>24813716
>>24813687
I'm not trying to sound pedantic, dismissive, or pejorative when I say this. If it's over then why are we all here still doing it? If this is true then there is no such field as continental philosophy anymore?
Anonymous No.24813716 [Report] >>24813883
>>24813697
we like it, its a genre, a text. we like to read and think and talk about and disseminate them. because of desire and recognition and all that stuff: we're seeking it here, in the book, we're seeking satisfaction for the restlessness that drives you to want to think about how things seem to be to you in the first place.

but we're utterly marooned in that restlessness in a way i really think only derrida and hegel understood, as far as cont. phil goes anywho.
Anonymous No.24813726 [Report]
Hegel actually talks about unemployment, sloth and poverty in his Elements of the Philosophy of Right, not in this work you posted, Mr. OP.
Anonymous No.24813777 [Report]
>>24810900
Eh this is too simplistic. Hegel could say to Fichte that by tying thought to will he isn't giving thought its due. His absolute becomes a cipher in the Grundlage. And even insofar as it is intersubjective by what he calls in his later writings its 'appearance' in consciousness, it's still an empty "what is morally good" toward which thought is only a servant. And Hegel shows in the Phenomenology of Spirit how this empty, abstract "good" collapses into lawlessness. There's also Fichte's dualism (even if it wanted to be a monism) between nature and consciousness. That's why Fichte is so 'cramped', he doesn't extend the insight that substance=subject in the ways Hegel does. Absolute knowing IS the subject-object relation itself; the individual's will to do good can't be the ultimate, nor can infinite wills treated as a collective. Hegel proves this in the PoS.
Anonymous No.24813883 [Report] >>24814119
>>24813716
I've noticed here that there seems to be a trend towards one specific sequence. We can call it a specialization for lack of better wording. The problem with this is that the high volatility makes this inherently riskier. It also leaves inherent contradictions. It might just be a change of times. The alternative is a complete splayfest. Of course the philosophers most famous in this method generally tend to breed authoritarians, but you don't have as many contradictions. The latter is usually what I associate with continental. The process of doing this either yields a specialization or some sort of usable knowledge.
Anonymous No.24814119 [Report] >>24814141 >>24814170
>>24813883
You are what the black ladies at work would call a ‘fruit loop’. Don’ pay the chile no mine, he can’ help hisself.
Anonymous No.24814141 [Report]
>>24814119
Although it’s an endearing term. For example, a man shot a gun into a local restaurant. My coworker says ‘oh that’s x, he ain’t nothin’ but a fruitloop.’ It means mentally ill or crazy but in a nice way.
Anonymous No.24814170 [Report] >>24814257
>>24814119
Hegel, Marx, and Nietzsche turned the whole field into a constant challenge fest and last man standing on the dog pile affair. That was frankly what I was used to before I showed up here. Baudrillard said somewhere all 3 are completely hostile to any authority until the last word. His mixture might seem like a fruit loop but it's also gone over well here and he's one of the very few who did all 3.
Anonymous No.24814257 [Report] >>24814314
>>24814170
Ok I mostly understand this one. But you’re making sweeping claims, it’d be more interesting if you argued for them. Are Nietzche, Marx really equals to Hegel? What’s the nature of this opposition as you see it? And Hegel demonstrated the identity of identity and non-identity. Where does that leave your division, which desu reeks of intellect and dogmatism? It’s like you’re seeking a higher wisdom in monkey-mindedness, contradiction as contradiction, a spider’s web of errors.
Anonymous No.24814314 [Report] >>24816498
>>24814257
Well Baudrillard borrowed heavily from Hegel on his particular notions of subjectivity and even some of his opinions on agency. He really turns Hegelian on his analysis of social norms. I suspect he may have even initially wanted to treat the hyperreal as absolute but his system sort of excluded him from that and in order to integrate as much as he did he had to abandon this in favor of his infamous paradox. Baudrillard basically viewed Nietzsche's philosophy as a sort of customization mechanism, psychological manifesto, and situationist modifier. Baudrillard integrated a fair amount of Marx, and he was selective, he also went against Marx on certain things so it's hard to say if he was ever in grid but he knew enough to perform critiques and some were also situationist influenced. Baudrillard was highly theoretical on Marx, not only that but his system almost maintains this at a latent level, my personal opinion is that Baudrillard was influenced by Marx extensively at one time and at some point left the school of thought, his critiques can run both ways.

Otherwise Hegel and Nietzsche are trapped in the present and Marx's philosophy allows for more flexibility than either. I guess it just depends.
Anonymous No.24814940 [Report] >>24816419
>>24783961
From what I understand of this book, he wrote with zero respect to layman, he wrote exactly the way his mind has processed information and reason logic. In this view it is a book of "unemployment" since it is not bound to a standardized routine and written with disrespect for time that only unemployed could have.
Anonymous No.24816393 [Report]
Bump
Anonymous No.24816419 [Report]
>>24814940
I think it was Hamann who dedicated one of his books “to boredom, from a lover of boredom.” Yes it is a queer book in that he barely explains the logic behind it. So you pick it up and make sense of these terms from context and thinking of how they’re used in Aristotle, Spinoza, Kant, Schelling. But that isn’t enough, you have to know Hegel’s logic to really understand it. I still haven’t finished the Logic but already it’s opening doors in rereading PoS. I love it though man it’s the wildest wackiest ride I’ve yet had in philosophy. One of my cousins is a tradcath, very into Aquinas. I have half a mind to send him this book with commentary/paraphrase on at least the first couple of hundred pages, tailored to his background, to broaden his mind a bit.
Anonymous No.24816498 [Report] >>24817748
>>24814314
Ty anon. Why do you think Marx is more flexible? It’s a provocative claim considering his materialism. What do you mean?
Anonymous No.24816700 [Report] >>24816755
Philosophy is love of wisdom. But what about people like Aristotle and Hegel who claim to have wisdom? What do we call them? Wizards.
Anonymous No.24816755 [Report]
>>24816700
You guys are such faggots shitting up every philosophy thread with le German uberautists, spamming the same threads 24/7 with the same three or four people posting in them.
Anonymous No.24817748 [Report]
>>24816498
>last words are for fools who haven't said enough.

>only through self-destruction is the self maintained.

>no quote just observation: stamina begins when realism is adopted, they've already come to me.

Most of this depends, you could view Marx as having suitably responded to Hegel. During the period when Marx and Engels were responding to Hegel it could also be argued that they were also essentially saying there were some topics that Hegel so definitively addressed there was no need to continue. Hegel for all intents and purposes, even if he was viewing the world upside down, wasn't going to lose the challenge. These are all topics that Marx may have addressed but at the end he basically used a version of dialectic to accomplish what Hegel did in a sphere of thought Hegel didn't really encroach on, and neither did Nietzsche for that matter. In EPM1844 Marx even returned to his old master and found absolute. Hegel still has to accept challenges on the same material even to this day, Nietzsche still has to get off the ground in one of the most suffocating philosophical environments, Marx doesn't have to do either.
Anonymous No.24818303 [Report]
>>24783785 (OP)
Is this what’s called a Hegel exercise?