Thread 23414600

What do you love/hate about them?

>>23414600 (OP)
I want to see a battleship with funnels. I'm not even sure why you would need MS anymore. Just make a million funnels.

>>23414600 (OP)
They're one of the most uniquely mecha weapons alongside pilebunkers, love em

>>23414600 (OP)
Love: everything
Hate: nothing

I love it when big shiny robots go full caveman on their enemies and remote weapons get in the way of that.

>>23414628
First thing that comes to mind that's not just a mobile armor is this thing from SRW
https://youtu.be/noFV1G6Gso0?si=IbQEbD2H1xPxjRGJ&t=55
It's got reflector bits and not direct remote weapons but it results in a similar mess of beams

Pros: they're too powerful
Cons: they're too powerful
Also I generally like melee and non-beam weapons a lot more, but I'd be a liar if I said I hate seeing them whoosh around. Even the wired weapons from 0079 are fun

I think they take a way from the giant robot aspect, they fit better as support for non-human shaped vehicles

>>23414690
You'd think they'd be lower output than normal beam weaponry but things get obliterated just the same.

>>23414600 (OP)
I like them, but they should be reasonable.
UC Gundam is pretty good with this but for a more recent example gwitch manages to be on both ends of the spectrum
The Daribalde's funnels are great.
It has defensive bits that are flying armor plates, and offensive bits that are flying beam sabers which can additionally be mounted as forearms.
They're simple and with a clear purpose.
And on the other hand, Aerial's bits are busted.
They have the gwitch equivalent of I fields, just float around instead of having visible thrusters, spam beams like crazy, are wifi extenders, and improve the Aerial's performance when docked because of course they do.
These things just do everything, and they end up incredibly boring as a result.

>>23414600 (OP)
Are there any other counters to remote weapons other than shutting off their connection, having better shields, or being faster?

>>23414842
>just float around instead of having visible thrusters
That all WFM bits.

>>23414885
You need your own remote weapons, otherwise the mere existence of them pretty much shuts down any suit/pilot you face that doesn't have an equally as capable machine, or straight up significantly outclasses the suit's pilot with them.
Going full UNGA and using explosives might work though? Just apply the logic of aoe damage to shit like funnels, which are clearly much more fragile than a full on mobile suit.

>>23414885
Scattershot weapons would be the other major option, like those bursting missiles the stark jegan had.

>>23414600 (OP)
The thing I don't like is that they don't seem to have much of any counter by Oldtypes. Any time they show up, they're invincible Newtype weapons that can only be defeated by another Newtype who has their own funnels, or said Newtype using their hyper reflexes to shoot the funnels down with their beam rifle.

You don't see an Oldtype deploying smoke to break visual line of sight, or anti-beam chaff to render the beam attacks useless, or stuff like that. The closest we ever got was Antidote from WfM, which just outright disables funnel hax (up to a certain point), but the fact that it comes from one of the worst Gundam shows out there really diminishes it.

Kio

>>23415196
You mean best.

>>23415196
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtL79SRGkWw

Gundam X? Garrod got crushed by the Bertigo and its bits in the first battle, but then trained specifically to take down bits.

>>23414600 (OP)
>Remote weapons controlled by newtype powers is okay
>Newtype powers are able to manipulate fundamental physical forces and move an asteroid is too powerful
You can't have one without the other.

I don't funnels, not at all
I do not like them big or small
I hate them mounted on a back
I hate them hanging off a rack
When they're used to block attacks
When they're used to fire back
I do not like funnels and bits
I do not like them, not a lick

>>23414628
00 Movie sorta did that

>>23414600 (OP)
>Remote weapons
>What do you love about them?
They can represent a new level of technology that transcend previously established rules about electronic warfare & jamming.
They can also be the standard combat unit before someone start jamming everything.
just want to point out that before the war in Ukraine, the idea of military drone controlled with wires looked ridiculous
They can be mook enemies that are dumb, limited, and can be destroyed without killing characters or making human expandable.
They can be used to represent who is in a position of strength and who has his back to the wall. It's like having a visual life-bar.

>What do you hate about them?
Shit anime like 00 or Seed make them magic gimmick, powered by magic, not technology.
Overused as "LOOK! MY MECHA GOT THE COOL POWER UP!!!!".
They typically float under gravity for no fucking reason. It's bad enough when legged-mecha just float around.
No fuck is given over how they are controlled in settings where electronic warfare and jamming is supposed to be critical.
Typically no care is given either over how smart remote weapon are, always moving in cool ways, as if the pilot controlled them with his mind + precognition.
There's always a point where you see no reason they aren't mass-produced to replace almost every other units.

It's difficult to use proper terminology since IRL we don't have any good one either. "Remote weapons" itself mean little without setting a context with pictures.
"Remote" imply they are yours and only yours, controlling any of their actions.
But drones were always meant to have autonomy so as to discharge the pilot of the mental effort of piloting them, ideally you also want to share what they see and control with every allies, also letting them take control if they need it.
At some point they become so smart they are more like "robot", autonomous servants you give orders to without a precise idea of how it will follow them

>>23415625
>They typically float under gravity for no fucking reason
And it is glorious when they don't.

>>23414600 (OP)
They are fine but I kinda don't like it when the final upgrade of the show/movie consecutively gives them funnels. The SEED Destiny to AGE period kinda irked me in this regard but it's really not a deal breaker and that was just me being autistic

They're excellent final boss weapons. The whole point is that they're super oppressive and hard to fight.
They're like the bad guy walking in and lightning bolt zapping fifteen dudes right at the start, and then you know he means business. It's not supposed to be fair, it's a monstrous level of power.The protag getting them as a final upgrade is also very good.

There's no point in complaining about grunts getting wasted by them because that's literally what they're there for, to make the villain look cool and powerful and like a unique threat that needs the protagonists attention. If you could just counter them with a regular gimmick then what's the point?

>>23415626
I don't think that's what is happening here. The Kshatriya shouldn't be feeling any gravity without touching the "ground" in a colony for a decent amount of time.

>>23415625
>Shit anime like 00 or Seed make them magic gimmick, powered by magic, not technology.
How is SEED guilty of that? I understand 00 where Qan[T]’s sword bits can combine together in different shapes and make portals across the universe being a bit much, but SEED dragoons are just remote weapons, same as the Mobius Zero pods from the start of the show.

>>23415960
He's complaining about the way they float and move in 3d in spite of often not having visible propulsion to do that, with just a large back truster, but seemingly moving in 360º at any time without issues. In general, even when the technology isn't magic, it's basically treated as such and feels alien to everything else in the setting that don't get to play by the same rules.

Really, I'd say this applies even to UC, since the funnels are supposed to just receive mental commands from the Newtype, not actually move by Telekinesis, so all the complaints thrusters and such are valid.

And if this thing moves so well, and you can deploy and reliably control them without interference (in a setting SEED), why the fuck do you even need mobile suits?

>>23416002
NTA, but the way DRAGOONs move in SEED always struck me as particularly rigid/precise. They don't flow the way funnels and bits do in other settings.
>And if this thing moves so well, and you can deploy and reliably control them without interference (in a setting SEED), why the fuck do you even need mobile suits?
For SEED's case, isn't it because you need high spatial awareness? The Strike Freedom's system needs less of that, but having it is still the way to bring the most out of it.
That said, isn't that a question that comes about in every setting that introduces funnels into mobile suit combat? The Elmeth didn't even need to enter the immediate battlefield to wreak havoc as a sniper IIRC.

>>23416002
You've gotta deploy them from something, so why not a mobile suit? It's not like battleships are really better than them.

>>23415848
And what about Protagonist ones?

>>23414885
Newtypes always get a scene of bit-blasting, even amuro managed to take out the elmeth's bits

>>23414690
>>23414782
I do think about this - they make a big deal in 0079 that the Gundam has what is essentially a miniaturized battleship cannon as it's main armament, and it runs out of energy many times. Bits/funnels have to power their engines and their weapons and are damn tiny. The wired ones make more sense in a way because of that, at least the braw bo could just use its main engine to power them instead of having to miniaturize a reactor 5 times over. Same with the Nu's i-field generating funnels, it just seems like a huge leap when the powerplant issue is one of the few technical ones the series bothers to pay attention to.

>>23416624
Probably just power creep. It's like how those gundam AUs typically have everyone start with flight and beam weapons, or even entire gundams for every faction.

It's a bit of a waste, because what are you left with for the final boss? MA forms? The protags even get those too now!

>>23416033
By SEED Destiny, there isn't as big of a need anymore starting with the Chaos Gundam. It's not even wired like the Exus' are, which actually does need Spatial Awareness to operate. Regarding the Elmeth, my guess is that there was still a matter of operational range. I remember in the show that the Elmeth was escorted by the Doms and they didn't see combat for most of their ambushes, so they were wondering why they were there at all.

>>23414600 (OP)
I think as a weapon concept they are neat, but as part of animation, I feel like the over use of them as we have come to see cheapens the action scenes.
When 90% of the on screen action is just beam spam and little shits flying about, it just feels like lazy choreographing, same with say, endless little missile spam. Few scenes with them feel well done.

Funnels are a visual spectacle, similar to a missile spam, and cheap animation as they just slide around.

>>23414628
There is one in Gundam Seed Freedom. The ship is called the Millenium.
https://youtu.be/c-5EYYupYtY?t=195

>>23416002
>He's complaining about the way they float and move in 3d in spite of often not having visible propulsion to do that, with just a large back truster, but seemingly moving in 360º at any time without issues. In general, even when the technology isn't magic, it's basically treated as such and feels alien to everything else in the setting that don't get to play by the same rules.
Everything powered by GN particles moves that way, not just the remote weapons.

>>23415931
I'm talking about the funnels in >>23415626
But supposing it's not a camera-zoom from the center of the colony, the Kshatriya would still require propulsion to maintain relative velocity with a building that is subject to centripetal gravity.

>>23415960
What the other anon said. There's a lot more to complain about SEED & 00, but as a general rule it's about conservation of details. Don't pretend to have thrusters one time, then ignore it latter without tech change.
Arguably Seed only cared to have "wing of light" cool looking mecha, and 00 is pretty much taking half its design cue from Zone of the Enders (Exia is basically JehutyxFMP Arm-slave) which is all about floating.

>Really, I'd say this applies even to UC, since the funnels are supposed to just receive mental commands from the Newtype, not actually move by Telekinesis, so all the complaints thrusters and such are valid.
UC autism goes this way:
-Newtype mean being able to "feel" target position, despite being in minovsky field that jam up to visual light
-Newtype can thus order a wire-remote to hit a target at a range where one would normally have problem
-The wireless funnels exemplified by Lalah use "newtype telepathy" to transmit (targeting) information to the funnels, allowing them to reach target sensor normally cannot identify using Minovsky jamming.

>why the fuck do you even need mobile suits?
That's going to start a shitstorm about realism and mecha. UC's take is that magic particle jam so much everyone operate in a fog with poor IFF.
Legs & "AMBAC" is about saving fuel turning yourself around. UC also didn't have non-stop flying back then.

>>23416033
>DRAGOONs move in SEED always struck me as particularly rigid/precise
That's just because static pose are cheaper to animate. Not hiding seed is radioactive shit to my refined taste.
See previous answer on the matter of funnels range. The Elmeth was in fact introduced as killing targets at a very long range.

>>23416635
>even amuro managed to take out the elmeth's bits
Amuro is The top level newtype with the best Gundum, if anyone could it would have been him.

>Gundam has what is essentially a miniaturized battleship cannon as it's main armament, and it runs out of energy many times
"E-caps"
https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Gundam_Wiki:Technology#Energy_capacitor_(E-CAP)
Before the Gundam they couldn't store that type of energy, they needed to generate it when needed.
The whole "5 time the power" is buzzword when it needed to pretend to be a super-robot mecha.
Basivally the funnels are just working on stored energy and focusing it on weaker strikes, the Elmeth bits needed to recharge.

But yes, powering the damn "remote weapon" is a critical detail.
And there are big holes in the terminology in that "funnel" are supposed to use stored energy, bits produce their own, but the shows don't stick to that rules and take whatever name sound cooler.

The first one with wired remote weapon

>>23417242
>That's just because static pose are cheaper to animate.
If it were just that, it would have changed with the movie.
>The Elmeth was in fact introduced as killing targets at a very long range
With that in mind then, how does that not render mobile suits pointless?

>>23417431
>how does that not render mobile suits pointless
Cause you need a super-giga psychic to pilot it And then they found out you can just shoot the bits. Elmeths bits are enormous, too.
Also they started using funnels from suits because suits are good, mobile units. No one is sitting in a space type mobile suit wishing they were in a ship instead, ambac won in gundam.

>>23417459
>Cause you need a super-giga psychic to pilot it
An increasingly solvable problem with cyber Newtypes, which is to say nothing of the apparently growing Newtype populace in Early UC.
>And then they found out you can just shoot the bits
I miss your point. So what if you can just shoot them out, how does that trump sniping with funnels across the map?
>Elmeth Hits are enormous too
Wasn't it still a problem that people could hardly see what was killing them?
>Suits are good, mobile units
What need do you have for mobility when you can just use funnels to take out opponents from MS combat range?

>>23417468
Far from*

>>23414650
It's incredible how yoji shinkawa had the rough sketch of anubis when he was a 16yo teenager.

It also explains why the cockpit is located at the place it is.

>>23417468
NTA, but a lot of that can be chalked up to Amuro basically slapping the concept sideways. People still researched into it, but it's shown time and time again in all of Tomino's works that a basic loadout was more reliable than gimmicks.

>An increasingly solvable problem with cyber Newtypes, which is to say nothing of the apparently growing Newtype populace in Early UC.
I'd say the biggest thing against it is cost and actually having a successful product to show for it. It was only during the first Neo Zeon War that they were in full force...And only 1-2 survived the entire conflict. (Marida and if you want to count Gundam Evolve, whoever Puru Clone was)
>I miss your point. So what if you can just shoot them out, how does that trump sniping with funnels across the map?
Because a major downside is that Bit-focused mobile armors have nothing else going for them once you shoot them down. The Braw Bro has 0 weapons outside of its wired ranged mega beam cannons, and the Elmeth only has two Mega Particle Guns that can only attack either up, in front, or slightly down. With the most basic loadout of a Beam Rifle, Beam Saber, and Shield, Amuro effectively shut down the Elmeth.
Wasn't it still a problem that people could hardly see what was killing them?
It was, yes. So it became a matter of relying on Amuro and White Base to handle it.
>What need do you have for mobility when you can just use funnels to take out opponents from MS combat range?
If you can't land anything, it doesn't matter. The Zeong can wipe out an entire fleet of Salamis, Balls, and GMs, but it having to focus on the Gundam was what helped the Federation Fleet land all of its forces. By this point, Amuro was skilled enough to just weave between the Zeong's all-range attacks and close the distance, which he can finally do without issue thanks to a stopgap fix of applying the magnetic coating to the joints.

>>23414600 (OP)
I like them when they're wired, like Incoms and Zeong's hands
Not that I dislike fully autonomous ones, it's that I like weapons to have limitations

>>23417300
The fact that she doesn't want to kill him, and has enough skill to carefully dismember him like a butcher or a surgeon with her mind powers, makes me absolutely moist. I honestly believe Haman might the No. 3 Newtype behind Amuro and Lalah, at least top 5.

>>23417783
>People still researched into it, but it's shown time and time again in all of Tomino's works that a basic loadout was more reliable than gimmicks.
This is the one time out of ten that the gimmick just needed more time in the oven.
>I'd say the biggest thing against it is cost and actually having a successful product to show for it.
Surely, costs can be cut elsewhere. And I thought the problem with the Purus was Neo Zeon going full retard and giving them shit instruction, not a matter of the clones actually being defective.
>Because a major downside is that Bit-focused mobile armors have nothing else going for them once you shoot them down.
A problem heavily reduced by simply not having the mobile armor present in the immediate field of action. Even if by shit luck you come across the one pilot out of hundreds that can actually counter your bits, you should be fine if you're further back than your opponent and thus can disengage without much trouble.
>you can't land anything, it doesn't matter. The Zeong can wipe out an entire fleet of Salamis, Balls, and GMs, but it having to focus on the Gundam was what helped the Federation Fleet land all of its forces.
So basically, Amuro's exploits were so absurd it mind broke everyone who would go on to research into funnels?

>>23418155
Amuro and Lalah aren’t top 3 I’m pretty sure. Top 3 are Kamille, Scirocco, Haman.

>>23418263
Judah is more powerful than haman for sure

>>23418155
I don't think Amuro is noted as particularly powerful newtype, but the thing about him is that he's very resourceful. He know what he has and knows how to use it well.

Love me some funnels, simple as

>>23418263
According to current canon, Lalah is shown capable of creating multiple alternate realities. Lalah is clearly the most powerful newtype. Unicorn is a minor jester in comparison.

>>23418320
Gqx isnt canon

>>23418280
No, Amuro is a powerful newtype. Very clearly.

>>23418326
Neither is Unicorn if we go that route.

>>23418350
Unicorn is 100% canon to the UC timeline, Gqx is a shitty AU spinoff

>>23418347
Amuro is a powerful newtype, but hes like A tier, below the top tiers like Kamille, Lalah, Shakti and the like

>>23418369
Yeah, basically. He would be like eighth or ninth behind Shakti, Maria, Kamille, Judau, Haman, Scirocco, and Lalah. There's some debatable ones like Puru and Leina doing outlandish shit in ZZ. Banana is a stronger newtype than Puru 12, but I'm not sure if the clones are explicitly on par with the original.

>>23418376
banana has a pretty strong case considering what he pulls off on the unicorn (neither riddhe nor jona did anything even remotely similar on the other 2 units), also Uso since hes like Newtype jesus, but thats about it
What Amuro has over any of those guys in the list not named Kamille or Judau is that he is a much much better pilot than any of them

>>23418180
>This is the one time out of ten that the gimmick just needed more time in the oven.
I won't deny that it's extremely potent, but it can be a little gimmicky. I think developing the Gelgoogs more so that less soldiers would be stuck in Zaku IIs would have also helped defending Bit MAs.
>I thought the problem with the Purus was Neo Zeon going full retard and giving them shit instruction, not a matter of the clones actually being defective.
Mashymere and Chara were already fucked up beforehand, so they're off the table. The Purus were the biggest success, and I don't think their problem was shit instructions and more that genuine NT connections whittled down the mental conditioning, so I won't blame Neo Zeon for losing them. The Clones seemed more robotic and conditioned, and I'll call them a success because they managed to score some wins as well as take down Chara in a mutual destruction deal.
>You should be fine if you're further back than your opponent and thus can disengage without much trouble.
I think it's a fine concept that works for non-wired all-range attacks like the Elmeth, but not Braw Bro or Zeong. I'd say the biggest success where they tried this with Fuala and her Zanneck (although no Funnels), where it only lost because of Shakti and Uso's NT powers and the V2 is busted.
>So basically, Amuro's exploits were so absurd it mind broke everyone who would go on to research into funnels?
Yeah, it's part of why the only Titans MS/MA in show that used Bits was the Psyco Mk-II. Regarding the original cutting costs though, Char's Neo Zeon did this with the Geara Doga. It was on equal footing with the Jegan, but we see it get damaged heavily by...vulcans of all things. Meanwhile Newtype MS brought the most results. Amuro is skilled, but the Re-GZ is a piece of junk. He can beat a Jagd Doga, but the Sazabi's tech gap was too large to overcome and Amuro was unable to stop that asteroid from dropping.

>>23418369
>>23418382
Yeah, I'd call him a solid A-tier. He has some pretty neat feats like leading White Base crew to safety while A Baoa Qu was exploding, but nothing insane on his own like what Haman, Shakti, and Judau could do. The Axis Shock is a miracle thanks to the Psycoframe and everyone's emotions coming together (influenced by Amuro's NT abilities or not). His main use of NT abilities is mostly enhancing his piloting as opposed to making aura barriers that shrugs off beams or gathering the souls of the dead to physically stop a MS from moving.

>>23418274
Not really, he has more raw willpower but is lacking in, you know, everything relating to being an actual newtype. That's like saying Dozle was a stronger newtype than Amuro.

>>23418382
>Not named Kamille or Judau
Amuro is miles better than them, what are you talking about? Also, what did Uso do again? It's been ages since I watched Victory, but I don't recall him doing anything super impressive.

>>23418491
yeah, essentially, I think that makes him cooler in a way
>>23418613
Amuro is better than all of them, but I think Kamille can definitely can give him a run for his money, I mentioned Judau to throw him a bone
>what did Uso do again
Just general newtype shenanigans, but Uso is very perceptive towards them, also he is literally newtype jesus, his birth was foretold

>>23418613
>>23418382
I wouldn't call Uso a powerful newtype but he's a fine one. He's mostly an absurdly good pilot. He couldn't transmit telepathic messages and could only receive them from stronger newtypes. There is one occasion when he hears Marabet's thoughts as if she's directly talking to him from miles away, but that's when she's under the influence of her newtype baby. That's directly after he blows up a battleship and hears the screams of the dead.
He really only showcases the basic power set and never actively utilizes his power to achieve a result like Amuro does at the end of 0079 or Zeta. If anything, Katejina, despite barely showcasing her stuff in the last couple of eps, and Fuala are stronger newtypes than Uso. It's directly stated with Fuala. She toys with him and actively gauges his progress as he gets better at predicting her moves like a game. She kinda only lost because she went into a psychotic break.

>>23418368
Unicorn definitely isn't. UC might be canon to Unicorn but Unicorn isn't canon to UC.

>>23418622
>Amuro is better than all of them, but I think Kamille can definitely can give him a run for his money
I honestly just don't see it. For every halfway impressive moment Kamille has, there's another where a jobber like Jerid had him dead to rights (only escaping because Jerid wants to give him the Iok special) or he's sending Fa out Newtype distress signals because he's getting pressed by some nameless grunt. The fact that Amuro has casually put away threats that were absolutely stumping him and Char also doesn't help matters.
>>23418485
>I won't deny that it's extremely potent, but it can be a little gimmicky.
Of course it's gimmicky, but that has no bearing on the weapon's potential. If the gimmick is strong enough, then you should build around/account for weak spots, not give up because you can't beat one super ace.
>I think developing the Gelgoogs more so that less soldiers would be stuck in Zaku IIs would have also helped defending Bit MAs.
Exactly! That's one mostly cheap option right there.
>The Purus were the biggest success, and I don't think their problem was shit instructions and more that genuine NT connections whittled down the mental conditioning, so I won't blame Neo Zeon for losing them.
That's fair, although one could make the argument that Neo Zeon actually weaponizing the connection that Newtypes seem to inherently seek out (like Scirroco and Char did) would have worked out better than trying to create human weapons.
>I think it's a fine concept that works for non-wired all-range attacks like the Elmeth, but not Braw Bro or Zeong.
Also true, but the sniping capabilities of wired bit MAs like those two are seemingly on the lesser side anyway.
>Regarding the original cutting costs though, Char's Neo Zeon did this with the Geara Doga. It was on equal footing with the Jegan, but we see it get damaged heavily by...vulcans of all things.
Of course Char would take the concept to a retarded degree. No wonder everyone seemed to hate Gyunei

>>23418811
Unicorn is definitely canon to UC in the animated counterparts and its always been treated as such

>>23419099
Hathaway doesn't care about. Neither does F91 or Victory. Unicorn is pretty meaningless.

>>23417193
That's not funnels that's Incom, they are tethered by wires.

>>23417298
This is still quite literally the most busted shit to ever come out of Gundam.

>>23417468
>An increasingly solvable problem with cyber Newtypes
I don't know if many of them were really lalah-tier. She's pretty clearly shown as a fairly unique sort of character.
>What need do you have for mobility when you can just use funnels to take out opponents from MS combat range
Cause you gotta launch them from something, might as well use suits.

Simply put, once they figured out what they were dealing with, fighting against oversized bits probably isn't actually that bad. They're like the size of a mobile suits torso. They're not that impossible to see. I feel like that's a clear reason everyone swapped to more mobile, combat oriented funnel carrier suits with smaller funnels. Sometimes new methods work really well for a short while and then just kind of wane once people adjust.

>>23419114
huh? Unicorn was meant to fit alongside those, the fuck are you talking about

>>23419164
He's trying to larp as a Tomino purist.

I've seen enough ukraine videos to know drones on mecha are a dangerous combination

>>23419136
>I don't know if many of them were lalah-tier
Do they need to be?
>Cause you gotta launch them from something, might as well use suits
You could just as well use a ship or a jet. The point being made was that mobile suits were preferred for their mobility. My counterpoint was that mobility doesn't mean all that much when you don't have to engage in close quarters combat.
>Simply put, once they figured out what they were dealing with, fighting against oversized bits probably isn't actually that bad
What are you basing this on? Grunts still job immediately to funnels as late as U.C. 0093.
Even if we said for the sake of the argument that you were right about the size of the funnels (the show goes out of its way to highlight the difficulty of perceiving the funnels at all, with even Amuro needing a second to adjust), so what? We're still talking about weapons flying at the speed of your regular mobile suit (if not faster) and firing up on you at all ranges, perhaps before you can catch them. Seeing an attack coming is a far cry from having an answer for it.

>>23419182
>Grunts still job immediately to funnels as late as U.C. 0093
which does beg the question, why did funnels fall out of fashion in late UC again?
was it just because people grew scared of psycommu weapons?

>>23419184
axis being redirected by a single psycoframe mobile suit probably made people wary. imagine if char and amuro had agreed and both wanted to drop a rock on earth, or do something else bad. what could stop them?

>>23417431
>With that in mind then, how does that not render mobile suits pointless?
Beside the need to find/make newtype, hope we don't discover a way to hijack funnels, oh wait >>23417287 happened rather quickly after the technology was invented.
Hell, the NT-D basically hijacked the pilot himself to use him as a sensor to kill other newtype.
Best case: You always have a MS in case the funnels run out of energy or the enemy managed to destroy/hijack the bits.

>>23417468
>An increasingly solvable problem with cyber Newtypes,
You mean the costly cyber newtype that often go insane, plus the side effect of implying Zeon was right to push for eugenism?
>which is to say nothing of the apparently growing Newtype populace in Early UC.
Deikun hand typed this.
>What need do you have for mobility when you can just use funnels to take out opponents (far) from MS combat range?
If you manufacture newtype, then your enemies has his own newtype, can detect your MA/MS and have a bigger chance to dodge funnels using a MS, which is a thing newtype can do.
Best case: You use MS to carry the drones instead of a big MA or a warship.
That said It would be refreshing to see a newtype warship where multiple newtypes using expandable remote-shield to counter incoming attack

>>23418180
>problem heavily reduced by simply not having the mobile armor present in the immediate field of action
Lalah had difficulty deploying the funnels/bits further away.
No one can tell oh far Newtype power reach, but unless it's a Axis-shock climax with cheat-mode ON, we didn't see a newtype remote control a drone a million kilometer away.
Some theory imply that Minovsky particles are the medium in which newtype power manifest.

>>23419198
>oh wait
Pushing aside the fact that the Unicorn can actually fuck you up if you're not made of the right stuff even in its normal state, that is ONE mobile suit out of the hundreds that can make or break any battle. Besides, you make it sound like Neo Zeon didn't come up with counter for the counter with the psychojammer.
Even then, if a funnel sniper loses their bits, all they have to do is head back to their ship and resupply because they weren't engaging in CQC and thus aren't in any immediate danger should they get lost.
>You mean the costly cyber newtype that often go insane
Gyunei seemed fine. Clearly the process can be refined to make them less crazy. And saying something is costly isn't automatically the same as saying it's not worth doing.
>plus the side effect of implying Zeon was right to push for eugenism?
Irrelevant.
>Deikun hands typed this
Are we supposed to just ignore the fact that the increasing number of Newtypes among the cast from 0079 to ZZ?
>If you manufacture newtype, then your enemies has his own newtype, and have a bigger chance to dodge funnels using a MS, which is a thing newtype can do.
And this is more efficient than giving the other Newtype his own funnel MA/MS how, exactly? A Newtype being able to counter another Newtype's funnels isn't a given, as we see in Zeta. Why not fight fire with fire?
>Lalah had difficulty deploying the funnels/bits further away.
Didn't Gyunei's punk ass intercept some nukes from across the map? If worse comes to worse, you can just pair MAs off in twos and use Newtype resonance to increase your effective range.
>Some theory imply that Minovsky particles are the medium in which newtype power manifest
It's still just a theory, though. Didn't Lalah awaken on Earth in some whorehouse regardless?

>>23419093
>Then you should build around/account for weak spots, not give up because you can't beat one super ace.
Ideally, yes. It's why units like the Psyco Mk-II, Queen Mansa, and Alpha Azieru all have massive generators and defensive measures like I-Fields. Yet it's always the super aces that manage to get around it, the Alpha Azieru getting the worst deal because it had to go against Amuro at his peak.
>That's fair, although one could make the argument that Neo Zeon actually weaponizing the connection that Newtypes seem to inherently seek out (like Scirroco and Char did) would have worked out better than trying to create human weapons.
Gundam is really funny about this because generally they treat their human experiments like garbage and objects, but we see stuff like Majestic Prince where treating those experiments like people just brings significantly better results. My guess is that they never really figured it out because of the theme of Gundam, where despite being heralded as the next step of human understanding and connection, both sides only see the war-like aspects of a Newtype and hone in on that.
>No wonder everyone seemed to hate Gyunei
Yeah on top of being an asshole, he's...really not all that. At least he had the right mind to work in tandem with the other Geara Dogas to capture Kayra.

>>23419184
There's a lot of reasons that add up together that make Funnels and Psycommu less prevalent, but the biggest one to me was simple even before Unicorn went batshit. Peacetime. There's no need to build all these one-off gimmicks or Newtype-like weapons anymore because there's no grand conflicts until the Zanscare War in Victory. Hell, even Char's Neo Zeon insurrection was small-scale compared to the First Neo Zeon War. The Earth Federation was also becoming more and more bankrupt, so they had to cut back on military costs. During the Mars Zeon conflict, it wasn't a Newtype that nearly single-handedly stopped the entire Mars Zeon force. It was Bergh Scred with his funny-as-fuck 300+ confirmed kill count riding in the F90 that could switch Mission Packs. Even the Heavygun, which was called a failure of realizing SNRI's true ideals of a miniaturized MS, was sufficient enough to fight Mars Zeon MS.

Damn, why didnt the Feds ever just equip a Saberfish with funnels? Jet just has to focus on keeping away from things, funnels do all the work, seems like a cheap and effective way to get the benefits of MA funnel machines without the cost.

>>23419248
>counter for the counter with the psychojammer.
First, that was literally a hack, not just jamming,
Then this unreliability is enough to defend you can't bet everything on a single gimmick.
>Irrelevant
There's very little that could be more relevant than that. Publicly admitting newtype exist, that instead of spiritual transcendence you mass-produce them as weapons, is almost as bad as if a hidden original version of the Earth-Federation charter had a poorly written article saying once human adapt to space, the Federation governance shouldn't be bound strictly to Earth, after a genocidal war on that very topic.
>Are we supposed to just ignore the fact that the increasing number of Newtypes among the cast from 0079 to ZZ?
Casval, we know it's you. It's easy to have more of something you just started looking for (or making from scratch) because you just discovered that autist might actually be superpowered psychic
>And this is more efficient than giving the other Newtype his own funnel MA/MS how, exactly?
If your goal is newtype maximization (to use funnels) then you need to minimize their loss, meaning using MS since they are more likely to survive.
Again you basically concede that using funnels don't make MS pointless.
>intercept some nukes from across the map
And became prideful as hell, very stable cyber newtype indeed.
If Newtype jammer become common, you'd be fucked for not having MS to defend Axis.
>Newtype resonance
If you get newtype magic as you want, then we get anti-newtype magic as we want.
>It's still just a theory, though. Didn't Lalah awaken on Earth in some whorehouse regardless?
Minovsky particle would be the MEDIUM to manifest the power, not the SOURCE. You could get a shitty NT signal in the whorehouse but get a 15G signal right next to a minovsky reactor.

>>23419360
>Saberfish
They explode if the pilot sneeze

>>23419387
>First, that was literally a hack, not just jamming
Anon, it's literally called a psycho jammer. I don't see what your point is.
>Then this unreliability is enough to defend you can't bet everything on a single gimmick
Firstly, discarding something as unreliable because your opponent managed to create ONE countermeasure (which is unreliable in itself) is absurd. Secondly, if a weapon is struggling against just one situation out of hundreds, that is cause for building up the gimmick to work around said issue, not making them mobile suits so the three Newtypes that you were just mentioning have an even easier time closing the distance/fucking you up.
>There's very little that could be more relevant than that.
The Federation doesn't have to publicly admit anything, the same way the didn't when using cybers in Zeta.
>If your goal is newtype maximization (to use funnels) then you need to minimize their loss
Being able to just head back to your ship if you lose your weapons with no real consequences does that just fine. How is putting your best ranged options on a CQC unit minimizing loss? If anything, you've made the enemy's job easier since now if they cut away at your funnels, they have a shot at killing you.
>It's easy to have more of something you just started looking for
So finding more Newtype pilots for the MS sniper corp should be simple then, right.
>And became prideful as hell
That's just Gyunei being Gyunei, there's nothing suggesting that the cyber Newtype process made him like that. That one old type lady on the same team was similar. Besides, pride is an easy thing to manipulate if you're just not a massive retard.
>If
What is suggesting they would be able to make Newtype Jammers common in the first place? If the Federation had the capacity to do that in the first place, I think they would have chosen to do that during the Titans/Post CCA era rather than try and make their own controllable Amuro Ray while putting him under house arrest.

>>23419387
>If you get newtype magic as you want, then we get anti-newtype magic as we want.
That's a silly comparison. Newtypes resonating with each other is a common, established thing in-universe. The concept of Newtypes being able to weaponizes their connections has existed since Zeta. I'm suggesting a more controlled version of that can be used and you're talking about magic as if I said they can do Axis Shock on command. Meanwhile, countermeasures against Newtypes hardly exist and wind up being weapons for other Newtypes anyway. There's more basis for what I'm suggesting than what you came up with.
>Minovsky particle would be the MEDIUM to manifest the power, not the SOURCE
And it would still be a THEORY that you have yet to prove.

>>23419480
MA*

>>23419335
So it was a mixture of fears of the psycho-frame + Expensive experimental technology like psycommu becoming less cost-efective in a world where every mobile suit had become a killing machine
I can fuck with that

>>23416894
It's just laziness for animation. It's either to have the protag fly around and pew pew everyone then have to animate them actually doing detailed takedowns per kill.

>>23416946
They don't need spatial awareness but you do need to be a competent pilot at using them which is why they still are ace units only. It's not like the GN Fangs from 00 which were basically idiot proof and did most of the work for you (and if you were a good pilot like Ali it made them even more dangerous)

>>23420400
Funnels are just very cool, they serve as a great "final upgrade" for most protagonist suits, since the signifies them ascending to the same level as the bad guys

>>23420217
Yeah, things started getting pushed hard again during the Zanscare War where the tech gets pretty absurd. The Einrad+Gedlav combo are actual, versatile death machines despite how goofy they look. Cheap, Mass-Produced, and any random soldier can use it.

>>23420422
I always figured it wasn't an issue for most Coordinators because they're better than Naturals at everything, but yeah, there's probably some degree of aptitude needed to utilize it to max potential. It just seemed Sting barely needed time to use it since he was a Druggie, and I assumed he was able to keep up with the computer.

>>23419480
>psycho jammer
It's on the Rozen Zulu, who use INCOM.
I'm talking about the UNICORN and specifically the FUNNELS HIJACKING.

If you can't follow a point so simple and obvious, just concede.

>ONE countermeasure
We are up to THREE: jamming, hacking, and yourself mentioned the need to extra shield your own Newtype against funnel.
Not counting unreliable gimmick.

>I don't see what your point is.
Do you see yours?
Your point was to defend funnels as "making MS pointless".
We've since deconstructed that arguments as:
- needing rare/costly newtype or unstable cybernewtype (the majority are crazy)
- subject to hacking/jamming once the enemy know they have to put money into this.
No one ever disagreed funnels are a useful edge as long as no one have a systematic counter to it.

>just head back to your ship
Why did you leave if your (long range) funnels/bits had no need for projection/recharge?
Also your huge ship is getting destroyed because it didn't have enough MS and Newtype trained for MS combat once the funnels are jammed/hijacked.

>How is putting your best ranged options on a CQC unit minimizing loss?
Because "MS combat" is the only way you'll fight/survive if someone counter your funnels.

>What is suggesting they would be able to make Newtype Jammers common in the first place?
What is suggesting they would be able to make Psycommu weapon common in the first place?
You are the one pushing to make it cost-effective to have common NT jammer.
Aside, NT jammer would also negate using Newtype as radar.

>pride is an easy thing to manipulate
Equally easy to lose control of
...out of overconfidence you could manipulate your own 'dumb' cybernewtype.

>you're talking about magic as if I said they can do Axis Shock on command
>concept
>weaponizes their connections
>more controlled version of that
Do you even read yourself? You talk of it like magic.
Also by Narrative they actually do Axis Shock on command, part of the "mankind is not ready" narrative.

>>23419480
To address points that are wildly distinct topics

>I think they would have chosen to do that during the Titans/Post CCA era rather than try and make their own controllable Amuro Ray while putting him under house arrest.
That one is political. You are the one pushing of producing "controllable" psychic-trooper, regardless of mental stability, brainwashing, definitely not caring first about the philosophical questions.

As much as I'm pro-transhumanism myself and some Newtype are quite sane, I'm not retarded enough to give mad scientist a free pass to people's brains, nor give the illusion of supporting the narratives of space-nazi, neither call newtype the "next step of evolution".

Not saying the Earth-Federation choice was any good, Gundam can't allow rational science based solutions to problems.
I fear UC is more rational than our own reality, if we had proof of Newtype IRL I can already imagine Elon&Donald jumping on it to pretend they are super being seeing into the future.

>>Minovsky particle would be the MEDIUM to manifest the power, not the SOURCE
>And it would still be a THEORY that you have yet to prove.
All that mattered was that you understood it right. It's not like it matter in the main debate since distance clearly make the Newtype job more difficult.

I'm trying to remember if Narrative actually confirm that theory. Then again, Narratives have newtype leaving copy of their dead selves in psycho-frame, surviving long after their death.
A perfect start for warhammer Necron type of plot.

>>23420891
>THREE
One of those countermeasure is specifically tied to a cutting edge Newtype use mobile suit, and even then the feature describing is specifically locked behind the NT-D mode that actively puts massive strain on the pilot and can only be maintained for a limited amount of time. Going further, they either can't do anything about funnel missiles or it takes a certain level of Newtype power to even pull off what you're suggesting. Moreover, weren't you the one just talking about how costs? The other is also tied to a Newtype ace mobile suit.
>Needing rare/costly Newtype
Not really, even shit cyber Newtypes like Gyunei can accomplish the task.
>subject to hacking/jamming once the enemy know they have to put money into this
Your main example (Unicorn) comes tied with a dozen asterisks, which is to say nothing of the fact that you actually need strong Newtypes to actually do what you're suggesting. Your "deconstruction" has the same problems you claim mine does but worse. How are you planning on mass producing this?
>No one ever disagreed funnels are a useful edge as long as no one have a systematic counter to it.
And no one does. What anyone has at most is an ace pilot in a top of the line MS that would still be SOL if the option of CQC was denied to them if their opponent isn't in immediate range (see Amuro sensing Lalah but not being able to accomplish anything because she withdraws way before he could close the distance).
> Why did you leave if your (long range) funnels/bits had no need for projection/recharge?
If they get destroyed/hacked (which was the scenario), then you'll need to resupply with an INCOM or reflector bits.
>Also your huge ship is getting destroyed because it didn't have enough MS and Newtype trained for MS combat once the funnels are jammed/hijacked.
You understand that the funnel unit being able to operate from further back means the ship gets to hang further back as well, right?

>>23420891
>Because "MS combat" is the only way you'll fight/survive if someone counter your funnels.
Again, Amuro sensing but not being able to confront Lalah in any capacity because she was sniping with the funnels suggests otherwise.
>What is suggesting they would be able to make Psycommu weapon common in the first place?
The fact that the weapons I'm describing have existed in some capacity since 0079?
>You are the one pushing to make it cost-effective to have common NT jammer
As opposed to the cost-effective NT-D system?
>Aside, NT jammer would also negate using Newtype as radar
No it wouldn't, what are you talking about?
>Equally easy to lose control of
...out of overconfidence you could manipulate your own 'dumb' cybernewtype.
There's a chance I could miss a step and die in a drunken stupor. Regardless, cybers aren't automatically super prideful.
>You talk of it like magic
Well, I WAS referring to the biosensor. I'd still say adding two Newtypes to increase effective range is less absurd than channeling the souls of the dead into your mobile suit.

>>23420897
>You are the one pushing of producing "controllable" psychic-trooper, regardless of mental stability, brainwashing, definitely not caring first about the philosophical questions.
I mean, it's in line with either faction, to be fair.
>As much as I'm pro-transhumanism myself and some Newtype are quite sane, I'm not retarded enough to give mad scientist a free pass to people's brains, nor give the illusion of supporting the narratives of space-nazi, neither call newtype the "next step of evolution"
You don't have to spin it that way. That said, you have a point. Scientists in UC aren't particularly trustworthy. You would have to have a more refined version of the treatment (or at least provide a surgery that also accounts for medical conditioning) to reduce reliance on them.
As for giving Space Nazis credit on anything, they can just frame Newtypes as special pilots/public servants. It'll be especially easy if the number of cyber Newtypes exceed the regular ones.
>Gundam can't allow rational science based solutions to problems.
No argument there, or for spoiler.
>Narrative spoiler
I thought that happened in Gundam Sentinel too.
>Warhammer
My friend would know more about that.

>>23420621
when are we getting a Gundam in a wheel

>>23421187
>>23421201
>>23421326
Beware the double standards. If you take early-UC then you accept scarce newtype, if you take late-UC then you accept jammers, NT-D and newtype are still scarce.
You argue to mass-produce newtype & funnels (and late UC kind too) but pretend we can't mass produce jammers? They didn't get mass-produced because newtype are still rare late UC and you don't strictly -need- it to kill funnels user.
You argue to have newtypes "weaponize their connections" but reject a hacking system that's do exactly that with less complication.

Nothing so far "make MS pointless". It's still the usual wunderwaffen MA to be shot down by top level MS.
don't mind me posting the MA that match your plans

>How are you planning on mass producing this?
More easily than you'll find / mass-produce newtype.
A normal soldier can activate jammer INCOM, it's probably even more effective on funnels that already have trouble getting orders from their newtype, and the NT-D don't need all the extra features, just psycho-frame to link pilot-funnels.

>And no one does.
They do and did even when it was brand new, the rare newtype in a MS killed the rare newtype in a MA.
Funnels are only game-changer in the hand of exceptional newtype, they are fragile to wide area explosion, they have poor aim even close, they don't really dodge as much as move randomly in quantity to overwhelm. Newtype sure don't micromanage each.

>You understand that the funnel unit being able to operate from further back means the ship gets to hang further back as well, right?
It seems my sarcasm was a victim of Poe's law.
You basically recognize that you still need to deploy funnels at MS range, if your spaceship is following so close you can "resupply anytime", it's close enough to be shot down while they are changing your loadout for MS combat.
Assuming of course you didn't get killed by your own funnel when the enemy activated a surprise NT-D.

>>23421187
>>23421201
>>23421326
>Amuro sensing but not being able to confront Lalah in any capacity
Rewatched it, Amuro went straight for their positions, they only left (early) because Lalah was tired, unaware that Amuro was coming.
If I took your logic, the fact Gundam didn't become a succession of Newtype sniping target with MS is proof enough that it's not reliable.

>No it wouldn't, what are you talking about?
I checked, sound like you are right, it doesn't prevent other newtype drama.
But from the description it would jam even the INCOM system from reading the pilot mind.

>Regardless, cybers aren't automatically super prideful.
They are clearly less mentally stable, and manipulable is not a good trait for your pilot to have.

>I'd still say adding two Newtypes to increase effective range is less absurd than channeling the souls of the dead into your mobile suit.
Two psychic fighting over a psychic-remote, versus a computer reading&writing information from a psychic sensor then from memory?
Even as newtype bullshit go, the later sound more reliable to me.

>I mean, it's in line with either faction, to be fair.
We can fight over what you call a faction or extremist acting on their own. Even if all morals are shades of grey, the bad guys are always the one doing the whole "brainwash & genetically engineer child to create supersoldier" thingy.

>As for giving Space Nazis credit on anything, they can just frame Newtypes as special pilots/public servants.
Yeah, right, special public servant that will get journalists jailed if they discover those are psychic, just like the narrative of space-nazi.
Obscurantism works up until the lie is too big to hide and the public jump to a conclusion worse than what you actually hid from them.

>>23421820
>If you take early-UC then you accept scarce newtype, if you take late-UC then you accept jammers, NT-D and newtype are still scarce.
Those are both early UC though, anon. And it's not that I don't accept them. It's just that I specifically am arguing that an NT-D system becoming standardized is impossible, ESPECIALLY given that the units that end up getting them are incredibly picky with their Newtype pilots.
>You argue to mass-produce newtype & funnels (and late UC kind too) but pretend we can't mass produce jammers?
When was I against the Jammers? I just got done saying that Jammers would be more reasonable to reproduce than an NT-D system.
>You argue to have newtypes "weaponize their connections" but reject a hacking system that's do exactly that with less complication.
It's less that and again more that the NT-D is too picky. Just about any Newtype can manage funnels. Not everyone is going to be able to manage the NT-D, whether we're talking about the strain or the features you can access while in it. If and when someone compatible comes around, I agree that the funnel corps are screwed unless they have a backup reserve of missile funnels or INCOMS. It's more that I'm saying they're by and large a manageable concern.
>A normal soldier can activate jammer INCOM
I don't see how this is a negative for me. Sure, I'm arguing we fill ranks with Newtypes and cyber Newtypes to man these Newtype MAs from a distance, but only as a means of solving the "Newtype only" problem. If you're offering a remote weapon that can be used by Normal pilots, that makes my job easier. That being said, doesn't the issue of INCOMs needing perpetual communication with its pilot kind of limit the potential range for them? Do we know the max effective range for INCOMs in general?
>and the NT-D don't need all the extra features, just psycho-frame to link pilot-funnels
If that's all, why the fuck didn't Riddhe instant counter Marida when she sent out those missile funnels?

>>23421820
>They do and did even when it was brand new, the rare newtype in a MS killed the rare newtype in a MA.
That's dumb luck on the part of the Federation, not a system.
>Funnels are only game-changer in the hand of exceptional newtype, they are fragile to wide area explosion, they have poor aim even close, they don't really dodge as much as move randomly in quantity to overwhelm. Newtype sure don't micromanage each.
Can they not just reinforce the armor for the weapons? Having shit aim is less of a problem with the element of surprise and the advantage of numbers, as you said.
>You basically recognize that you still need to deploy funnels at MS range, if your spaceship is following so close you can "resupply anytime"
The plan is to take advantage of the Newtype radar to fight out of MS range, kiting ships and MS alike with funnels. For that plan, a ship being in MS range isn't needed so it should be able to hang back like the MA. The ship would be further back and the funnel units would be nearby or even hiding behind the ship.
>Assuming of course you didn't get killed by your own funnel when the enemy activated a surprise NT-D.
This is where the advantage of keeping funnel units would come in. The NT-D pilot still has to go out of their way to find you since you're not in immediate range. From there, the funnel team that has the range advantage can pull further back until the time limit for the NT-D runs out before ganging up on it. Or again, swap out the regulars for missiles.

>>23421825
>Rewatched it, Amuro went straight for their positions, they only left (early) because Lalah was tired, unaware that Amuro was coming.
I went and checked. It happened like you said in the show, and it's inconclusive in the movies (or rather, the clip I checked on YT ended before I could get a read on position). Supposing nothing changed in either version, isn't that still a plus for the plan? Amuro sensed them, tried to reach them, and then lost their trail when they decided to leave. It was dumb luck that time, but that's because she's stuck relying on Char (who hadn't yet awakened as a Newtype) to watch her six. Replay that scene with Four or Rosamia and the retreat would be intentional (presuming they both took their meds).
>If I took your logic, the fact Gundam didn't become a succession of Newtype sniping target with MS is proof enough that it's not reliable
What the Federation is trying to do with the Gundam (a close quarters mobile suit) is entirely different from what Zeon was going for with the Elmeth (a long range MA), so you wouldn't be able to judge them by the same metrics in the first place. That said, my logic is that long range funnel units en masse is such a broken combo that it should still be enough to either make MS moot or otherwise totally revamp the way either faction handles combat. The second thing I'm saying here is that the universe doesn't quite put enough things in place to justify this not happening.
>But from the description it would jam even the INCOM system from reading the pilot mind
So an impasse, basically?
>They are clearly less mentally stable, and manipulable is not a good trait for your pilot to have
That's at least partially because most people in U.C. are too retarded to try using positive reinforcement. Quess is arguably less stable than your average cyber and Char didn't have a single problem with her.

>>23421825
>Two psychic fighting over a psychic-remote, versus a computer reading&writing information from a psychic sensor then from memory?
Even as newtype bullshit go, the later sound more reliable to me.
My idea was actually just to strap two pilots to a mobile armor/whatever equipped with a psycommu and take things from there. What you wrote down for the biosensor makes the end result make even less sense. How does any of what you described lead to the Zeta being able to harness people's souls?
>the bad guys are always the one doing the whole "brainwash & genetically engineer child to create supersoldier" thingy.
So we'll use volunteers and inmates instead to maintain moral purity. :^)
>Yeah, right, special public servant that will get journalists jailed if they discover those are psychic, just like the narrative of space-nazi.
You don't have to go that far. The point is to change the narrative/conversation around Newtypes wholesale so that even when the cat's out of the bag, people think of the Newtype pilots as either people Federation enhanced to protect and serve (just say that Amuro and the rest were modified) or that they were a subset of people explicitly made for war. Either way, that will become the truth with time. Before long, the heady ideas of Newtypes as a superior race or new hope for humanity will die out, with only their legacy in the battlefield to look back on.

>>23414842
Aerial's bits are fine though.

>>23426161
Love me some funnels

I like funnels on funnels.

Why do only X and WFM use mobile suits as funnels?

>>23433164
It was also in 00 and AGE. Not sure if Unicorn counts since they were wired/hacked.

>>23433164
>It was also in 00 and AGE
Where?

>>23433216
Age had Desil stealing people's MS with his psychic bullshit. I don't remember 00.

>>23433216
Desil had this program that allowed him to take control of other mobile suits. Used it with the Farsia against Flit and again in Asenu's arc (I forget when).

>>23433164
In Zeta, they show some testing of remote controlling the psycho Gundam and it seemed to take too much out of Four. So, the tech just didn't seem to be there to remote control multiple mobile suits at once.

>>23433216
Tieria's Gundams in S2 and the movie had gimmick of wearing another Gundam for a backpack and a hat that normally just provided extra weapons but could detach and move on their own, controlled by quantum brainwaves. Other remotely controlled MS were also a thing in the 00 MSV and the sidestory mangas.

>>23433243
Oh derp, Tieria's shit. Of course.

>>23433216
>>23433243
>>23433253

>>23433528
>>23433228
Guess it doesn't stand out when it's just a single MS versus a whole pack like funnels.

>>23417204
brutal

>>23414600 (OP)
I still don't know how those work or moves.
A lot of them doesn't seem to have any propulsion system. Some uses wire while a lot doesn't. How do you even control so many of them with just 4 limbs while also having to control the mech.
Is it newtype magic that makes them moves? But what about the one in SEED? As far as I know, Coordinator doesn't have any telekinetic ability.

>>23417431
>>23417459
>>23419198
NTA but it was planned in the 00 movie that the Gadelaza is a one-psychic drone swarm with Fangs in more Fangs that can do the job of more than 5 MS platoons. It's bigger than the Ptolemy.

The reason it didn't break the movie is the ELS just assimilated it.

>>23421990
>>23422037
>>23422097
>>23422129
Sorry, I've been too busy to answer. I'll keep it concise, one post.
>my logic is that long range funnel units en masse is such a broken combo
That's because you argue as if it was impossible to detect/counter the Funnel-carrier in time, survive its funnels or that "there's no counter" despite MS-newtype/jammer/NT-D not produced in mass mostly because no one have been able to produce Newtype in mass, it's kind of the point or they would all UNDERSTAND each others and go pacifist. Right?
>why the fuck didn't Riddhe instant counter Marida when she sent out those missile funnels?
I plead "too quick for it to trigger" or said funnel-missiles not being sophisticated enough to be hackable.
>Can they not just reinforce the armor for the weapons?
Making funnels slower defeat their main defence strategy, they aren't even dodging, just moving randomly
>For that plan, a ship being in MS range isn't needed so it should be able to hang back like the MA
You forgot the context, MS with jammers/NT-D/newtype can counter funnels.
If you get to have infinite supply of the sophisticated funnel, attacker get infinite anti-funnel systems, or funnel shield.
Funnels are not invincible, untouchable, are limited in range and energy, even the bits.
>isn't that still a plus for the plan?
Needing to constantly reposition show that you cannot reliably predict enemies arrival but they can detect your newtype tech.
Best I give you is the human radar is unreliable both side, meanwhile even under minovsky fuckery you can still send MS to attack a ship.
>So an impasse, basically?
Not sure what you mean, the description just imply that even INCOM would be jammed.
>The point is to change the narrative/conversation
>(just say that Amuro and the rest were modified)
Saying you need transhumanism to become the space-nazi master race is far worse than recognizing newtype cat exist.

>>23434430
>I still don't know how those work or moves.
Oh boy, in my opinion only one setting actually cared to make a proper logic behind and that's the UC timeline.
The other AC timeline only use buzzword that sound any time they need their main mecha to have the funnel upgrade.
oh btw, we decided that quantum brainwave are a thing now, so MC get cool funnel.

Under UC logic, grossly,
- minovsky jamming fuck all kind of remote weapon and long range targeting, jamming radio and even light,
- turn out, Newtype people literally just feel people/thing around, they aren't jammed, they can even talk mind-to-mind without being bothered,
- so someone invent gimmick that read the newtype bizarre brainwave, if the pilot "feel" a target, the funnels read where it's supposed to be (they can't detect it themselves cause minovsky) go there and shoot it,
- funnels only use stored energy (like the energy in beam riffle) / bits produces their energy, somehow even in UC thermodynamic is less a law than a guideline

After it's interpretation and rule of cool.
It would take a ridiculous amount of data exchange on top of "automated behaviour" (assuming the funnel can see/talk to each other's if close) and to interpret human intent crazy well to move as they usually do.
Same can be told about controlling humanoid MS with stick&pedal tho.

>>23414650
>alongside pilebunkers
Debunked (HEH) by Bloodborne and the like.

>>23414600 (OP)
Lame concept, lame execution.
Its just retarded superpower.
They are the mecha capeshit element.

It would be awesome if there's a remote weapon system that used one beam weapon, but the rest of the components are reflectors that would redirect the beam towards the target. Like a mini-Requiem of sorts.

>>23438019
Didn't code geass have something similar to that?

>>23417225
This was an absolute waste of a suit and a character. The writers were better off not making such a thing if they weren't going to use it in any significant way.

>>23414600 (OP)
>What do you love/hate about them?

I hate how after 40 years, the Gundam writers still copy Tomino and can't come up a better endgame upgrade. It's always funnels/bits. It's been done to death.

why are they called funnels?

>>23438387
Because they look like plastic funnels.

>>23438432
i guess some of them do, most of them aren't really shaped that way

Its really weird that the one thing that makes the Nu Gundam different form other Gundams was a weapon that only Zeon MS exclusively used up till that point.

>>23438439
Haman's Quebely funnels literally look like Funnels. Same with other Neo Zeon suits.

>>23438446
>Its really weird that the one thing that makes the Nu Gundam different form other Gundams was a weapon that only Zeon MS exclusively used up till that point.

I would argue that the Dendrobium probably could have achieved the same result and defeated Char and his forces. Lots of missile spam and beam spam plus I-field = dead Char.

>>23438491
"some of them do"

>>23438505
Almost ALL of them do. That why they are called funnels.

>>23438617
True. It's more accurate to say which funnels don't look like plastic funnels? The only one I can think of is Nu Gundam.

>>23438617
i mean, if you look at the op pic, approximately 1 of them does

>>23438703
4 out of those 6 aren't even called funnels

>>23438446
Are there more main gundams with or without funnels at this point?

>>23438281
What would you have them get instead?

>>23438703
>i mean, if you look at the op pic, approximately 1 of them does

2 of them*

(Jagd Doga and Quebely)

The rest of them don't even call themselves funnels, or are from AU Gundams that seem on run on magic juice. Looking at you WfM.

Its cool they are hard to fight against because of the novelty.

Being that said, its stupid their beam output is strong. They are a small unit where probably about half the real-state is gone in propulsion and yet their output shames other bigger weapons (eg. beam rifles).

Curiously enough Seed them kinda right, final boss weapon out of nowhere, had to redock/recharge often, etc. Still a bit too strong though, at least they didnt melt through everything like butter.

>>23438804
>What would you have them get instead?
Just be different.

Look at Gundam Seed Freedom.

Infinite Justice got Z'Gok armor, stealth cloaking, and extra beam sabers.

Destiny Gundam got faster reaction time (upgraded joints), new uograded reactor, and cloning technology to fool enemy sensors.

Strike Freedom got Nano particle shield, 360 lightning attack, disruptor beam, and a ninja sword.

Funnels were useless against the Black Knights.

>>23439280
>Being that said, its stupid their beam output is strong. They are a small unit where probably about half the real-state is gone in propulsion and yet their output shames other bigger weapons (eg. beam rifles).
Agreed. Also funnels were never powerful endgame weapons. They were always limited and considered a moderate obstacle at best. During OYW, they could only be mounted on large mobile armors and couldn't change the outcome of the war. During Zeta, the Quebely put up a good fight against Zeta Gundam, but Kamille eventually came up with ways to deal with funnels. Like using targeting the Quebely directly with rope missiles, nets, scattering beam shots, and my favorite "beam confuse". By CCA, funnels were improved but they only have a limited amount of shots and propellent. In Unicorn, the Federation developed exploding scatter shot rocket which send shrapnel over a large area. That's how the Stark Jegan destroyed half of Kshatriya's funnels.

>>23438281
Remote weapon is just a staple in /m/ anyway, also the AU has their own endgame powerups, 00 has Trans-am, SEED has WoL and shit, Wing is just tanky I guess, Hyper mode for G, Moonlight Butterfly, just to name a few.

>>23439296
>extra beam sabers
>and cloning technology to fool enemy sensors
>Nano particle shield
depending which AU youre looking at all of these can be funnels too

>>23439333
>but Kamille eventually came up with ways to deal with funnels
Yeah but Kamille never fully beat haman, the funnels where also a massive pain in the ass for him
>only have a limited amount of shots and propellent
we never really see that come into play in the movie
>That's how the Stark Jegan destroyed half of Kshatriya's funnels
The stark jegan still lost that fight, mostly because of the funnels

>>23439333
>Kamille eventually came up with ways to deal with funnels
Only in the movies. In the series he was dog shit against funnels.

>>23439560
>Yeah but Kamille never fully beat haman, the funnels where also a massive pain in the ass for him
>>23439565
>Only in the movies. In the series he was dog shit against funnels.

pretty sure even in the original TV series Kamille did more damage to the Qubeley than Haman did to the Zeta, and Kamille didn't even use the biosensor powerup in their fights

>>23439573
I mean, using Kamille, possibly the strongest newtype ever, as a barometer for how good funnels are is silly, specially when you remember how much stronger funnels and bits became post 0086

>>23439560
>we never really see that come into play in the movie
We do. Gyunei's funnels run out while fighting Amuro. It seems Amuro is too slippery for Gyunei to get a fatal hit with his Jagd Doga weapons.

Then later in the movie Gyunei complains and asks why is Nu Gundams funnels lasting so much longer than their own funnels.

>>23439594
Yeah, because the fin funnels are just objectively superior, but thats the point, his weaker funnels just got defeated by stronger funnels

>>23439573
Kamille was about to kill Haman in their fight but spared her life. It doesn't change the fact he was dog shit against funnels, though.

>>23439560
>The stark jegan still lost that fight, mostly because of the funnels
The ending of the fight didn't even make sense. How can Kshatriya's boosters suddenly "push back" the Stark Jegan? They are in space. Kshatriya would just fly away if it activated it's boosters. It would stand still.

>>23439607
that IS what happened, she avoided the stab by matching relative velocities

>>23439597
>his weaker funnels just got defeated by stronger funnels
BECAUSE Nu Gundam's funnels lasted longer and had more ammo. That's the point. Some funnels have a limit.

>>23414885
Flak guns have been used as an anti air countermeasure for a long ass time and the same traits that make them good at that would make them great at dealing with funnels
Mecha as a genre is just allergic to depicting shotgun type weapons for some reason

>>23439614
I mean but thats also because funnels evolve too, that doesnt make funnels bad, the Unicorn's machine gun funnels had infinite duration + I-Fields
The funnel missiles just skip the middleman and bombard you directly

>>23439613
That's NOT what happened at all. Both of them were moving at the same speed even before Kshatriya fired it's extra thrusters. Yet the Jegan was acting like it was getting "burned" by the exhaust flames of Kshatriya. And I dare you to post the video so we can all laugh at you.

this one looks like it is carrying a hive on its back

>>23439661
your entire post is negated because you said "speed" instead of "velocity"

>>23438750
Irrelevant because funnels are treated as an upgrade now.

>>23439614
>>23439594
>why is Nu Gundams funnels lasting so much longer than their own funnels.
Because according to data they are not actually funnel but Bits with their own power source.

UC did such a better job or portraying funnels. To the Federation, funnels and bits are just another weird weapon that Zeon used. Its kinda annoying to deal with, but it's not the wonder weapon that Zeon hoped for that could win them the war.

Meanwhile every other Gundam treats funnels as the ultimate upgrade. It defeats everyone, never runs out of fuel, and never runs out of ammo. Also funnels are mysteriously faster that most suits.

UC did it way better.

>>23439778
>now
when where they not

>>23439782
>funnels and bits are just another weird weapon that Zeon used
the Nu gundam literally wins the 2nd neo-zeon war with funnels, what are you talking about

>>23439803
>the Nu gundam literally wins the 2nd neo-zeon war with funnels, what are you talking about
I didn't realize the sacrifices of the other 100 Jegan pilots of Londo Bell didn't mean anything. Clearly Amuro did everything himself. The other pilots were not needed at all.

>>23439623
>Mecha as a genre is just allergic to depicting shotgun type weapons
Between kampfer and the scatter shot on those dias rounds, gundam has a bit of it. More if you count beam spray shots like sazabis. Zakus also carried flak rounds sometimes.

>>23439801
UC
It was only a technology that could either not have happened, or been relegated to inefficient gimmicks, or failed superweapon.

>>23439782
>but it's not the wonder weapon that Zeon hoped for that could win them the war.
Axis Zeon just ate itself alive
>never runs out of fuel, and never runs out of ammo
Wasn't their issue, if they didn't have such a drastic civil war and turned all those advanced newtype weapons towards earth only then the only thing saving them is Judau doing a miracle

>>23414600 (OP)
In practice, most MCs adapt really quickly. Setsuna could throw daggers right at them from the get go.

>>23418263
>>23418280
Can anyone translate this ir has an English version?

>>23439806
The Nu Gundam and its fin funnels are the reason the conflict turned around, they where losing when he was piloting the Re-Gz

>>23439943
Ever since CCA they've been treated as the ultimate upgrade, cause they are
The reason they fade out in the late UC is, as far as canon goes, because of the fears of the psychommu, that and more standart weaponry improving, but funnels still exist, and are the the strongest weapon type

>>23414628
so a completely immobile sitting duck with funnels is better in your mind than a moving target capable of independent combat? that would also take like a hundred newtypes probably. Does kinda seem like a Titans-esque idea.

>>23440896
Just get lots of i-field generators or funnels that can make barriers.

>>23440902
How would damaged mobile suits get back into the ship during a battle if it was covered in i-fields? if there's gaps in the field it would just defeat the point. Solid objects like MS's and bits are incapable or have a hard time passing through i-fields, iirc. beam barriers have the same problem, i'd imagine.

>>23440929
Additionally, in Crossbone, the Mother Vanguard is stated as being able to hold its beam barrier for about 20 minutes, and is a fairly small ship, so its likely that mid-UC ships wouldn't be able to maintain that large of an I-field/beam barrier at all, maybe a few minutes maximum.

>>23426161
I really fucking hate how much missed potential this shit had.
Aerial just turning off your machine with a massive fuck you wave the minute beam spam didn't work was gay as fuck.
I was really hoping the 3 houses would start a bits arms race and developing their bits with unique abilities.
Jeturk would use melee bits like the fangs in 00.
peil would trade fire power for low power emp laser bits that support it's sniping capabilities and have a longer battery life.
grassley would invest further in anti-funnel tech that could lead to funnel highjacking tech.
this would be a natural segway for aerial rebuild and schwarzette to have the funnels combine into a big fucking gun and big fucking sword/sword wing mode to somewhat counter grassley's anti-funnel tech.
But aerial permet wank threw that out of the window.
I was actually disapointed that schwarzette's gundbits weren't a progression of darilbalde's beam blade bits and was just beam spam outside of the wing mode

>>23441239
>I was really hoping the 3 houses would start a bits arms race and developing their bits with unique abilities.
you cant really win that when the Aerial's bits where powered by dead children

>>23441239
Anon you should have known better. The first 5 episodes of this show made it clear that the show was going in a different direction. The idea of the show was to appeal to girls and young women. The focus was on emotional relationships. The type of "arms race" anime that you want is not the direction the Director or Writers of the show wanted to take.

You know this.

Why waste you energy hoping for something different when you know it's not going to happen?

>>23441362
Because I know better than them.

>>23440929
Under the idea>>23414628 gives, MS themselves wouldn't be necessary. Just bajillions of controlled drones presumably from newtypes to bypass whatever minovski particle radar jamming.

I only like them in Wing, if they count.

>>23441808
You thinking of planet defensors or mobile dolls?

>>23441815
Planet defensors, feel like nice addition to the standard suits instead of being the whole identity.

>>23441839
>standard suits instead of being the whole identity.
Well other than Mercurius pretty much only being about that I assume

>>23441861
Well I think them being mostly defensive adds to the fact that by themselves they can't just finish a fight and actually need the actual suit to support them , even in Mercurius case, he had a beam sword for the same reason and he was created as a pair with the Vayeate.

>>23441868
But that's not entirely different from the Char Gelgoog+Elmeth pair for example, Elmeth was strong at distanced fighting but couldn't actually handle anything rushing it down, but that's why she had Char around to help prevent it

>>23441839
Do like a planet defensor myself. Nice addition to the Virgo 1's ensemble without, as you say, taking over.

>>23441877
The nu gundam fixes that issue by being both the close range fighter and the long range support

>>23440410
any part in particular you want translated?

I'm not a fan of Seed's writing but I gotta give Seed credit for coming up with new Endgame weapons, and not relying on funnels again like in other Gundam shows. Mighty Strike Freedom was veey unique with its lightning blast.

>>23440436
You misunderstand,
UC has an underlaying physics ruling how said funnels are used and their limits, like needing newtype to begin with.
Narratively they are not treated as just a mid-season or final episode upgrade "oh by the way, remote weapons exist now", not that alternate timeline gundam even bother justifying their mecha in the first place.

>>23442486
That's not really uniquely a UC thing though, I think 00 is the only one that doesn't bother to show it's working at all in regards to remote weaponry

>>23442486
Most funnel type weapons in AUs still abide by this, the GX bits require newtypes, The ones in AGE require X-Rounders, the Barbatos' Tail came from an acient Mobile Armor, and Aerial's are only as strong as they are because they are powered by like a dozen dead kids
The only AUs where funnels just existed without much of an explanation where SEED and 00, where it seemed everyome just had access to them

>>23442518
Remote weapons in Seed have a logical progression, they're strictly the domain of rare superhumans until technology catches up and makes them more accessible in Destiny, even then there's progression since the Chaos is the prototype of that and is clearly limited, it only has half the armament of of a Mobius Zero/Exas

00 is pretty guilty of just having them show up as if they're just some thing anybody could use

>>23442518
>>23442553
Usually 00s has some VEDA support. The MS OS for CB mechs used to need VEDA until Sumeragi suspected VEDA was compromised and had a backup OS made. Many Fang machines like the Zwei have VEDA support and VEDA can remotely shut them off if needed. The Cherubim's bits are different because the Dynamis series has a Haro co-pilot. It's all assumed
>CB tech is super special

>>23442851
>Usually 00s has some VEDA support.

Then how did Ribbons use all those funnels on Reborns Gundam when he was cut off from Veda?

How the Gadelaza deploy all those funnels when they were out of range of Veda and millions of miles away near Mars?

>>23442497
You'll have to list the other Gundam AU because I don't remember any,
In the first place, you need UC's jamming magic and AMBAC to somewhat justify mecha versus long range drones/missiles swarm.

If you fail to justify that at the same level?
Then there's no point wondering if your pilot require "spatial awareness" ability (worded as if it was an unnatural ability) to order around smart-drones.
As magic as late-UC became, Narrative demonstrate they cared about the implication of seeing the future and manipulating reality with your mind.

>>23442518
More like they namedrop similar technobabble without caring about repercussion or what it imply.
Also see above.

>>23442553
Seed has no sort of self-consistency beside "what will I copypaste from another gundam?" Seed included
Seed's "coordinator" is a buzzword thrown to supposedly justify a "race war".
The concept of actually upgrading human brain in irrefutable ways is among the most difficult things to use in a story.
00 is arguably FMP+ZoE+NGE on top of an Asimov plotline. So "quantum brainwave" is just here to look cool for kids.

>>23414690
>Pros: they're too powerful
>Cons: they're too powerful
Many such cases. Mostly balanced out by rendering the parent vehicle a one-hitpoint wonder.

>>23442883
>how did Ribbons use all those funnels on Reborns Gundam when he was cut off from Veda?
I can't recall for certain, but I'm guessing Ribbons made a backup control system for himself, plus his quantum brainwaves probably helped him control the fangs without Veda. Being Ribbons (aka a paranoid asshole), he didn't share this system with his allies, because those guys got wrecked as soon as they lost control of Veda.

>Gadelaza
IIRC, the control system is housed onboard the MA (it's bigger than the Ptolemaios), and again the pilot had quantum brainwaves.

>>23442883
Quantum brainwaves. Innovades are pseudo-innovators.

>>23419335
>funny-as-fuck 300+ confirmed kill count
I know as someone who played ace combat that this is normal for flying game protagonists but holy fuck, that's like Amuro's kill count but doubled.
How many oldsmobile suits were out there?

>>23417303
And this is basically why all beam-equipped suits have a beam spray weapon as of ZZ onwards. The shotgun-pellet approach is one of the absolute best mid-range offenses against a funnel user.

>>23418613
>I don't recall him doing anything super impressive.
The Wings of Light? That's him.
The Minovski Drive is basically just jet propulsion with a linear exhaust of Minovski particles and mega particles. It's Uso that's shaping the minovski particles into a lattice to form an impromptu wing-shaped I-Field containing the mega particles, basically forming a make shift exhaust-driven gigantic beamsaber.

>>23442079
It was a necessity what with the main villain's loadout being an SF knock-off

>>23419248
>Gyunei seemed fine.
Only superficially. He could function, militarily speaking, at the time and that's all. Privately he was still all kinds of fucked in the head.

>>23439781
They're bits, but afaik only for propelling themselves. They use electric propellant generated by the reactor, which gives enough trust for them given their small mass, but isn't enough for firing their weaponry. For that, iirc they use a rechargable e-cap like 0079 era beam guns would. Except the Nu's own reactor recharges them when they dock back with the suit.

Basically, Amuro can take all the time he needs to out-maneouver Gyunei - but he still needs to make his actual shots count.
Or in short: Gyunei complains about a tech gap -- but actually
> "skill issue"
is what applies.

>>23444096
Technically every justification is technobabble

>>23444402
iirc, it's a limitation of the Nu that Fin Funnels can't re-dock, it's only the Hi-Nu that has the capacity to retrieve and reuse them

>>23444460
No im fairly sure the Nu's funnels could also re-dock, that was their entire point

>>23444489
It was conceptually their point but the Nu was rushed into action before it was fully developed.
Hi Nu has Funnel docks for them to return to and be recharged by, Nu is missing this - it's Funnels are basically duct taped together with just the final one stuck to a hard point on the suit, so once they're deployed they're expended

>>23444457
Some are of a much higher quality than other, like night & day.

>>23444096
>Retarded babble and pointless spoilers
Hmm...

>>23444382
So he was important for the only period of time that matters for the military, then. Is this from the novel?

>>23444376
>It was a necessity what with the main villain's loadout being an SF knock-off
Setting aside Orphee....Kira was already losing against Shura before Orphee showed up. Kira didn't put a single dent in Shura's suit. Meanwhile Shura already destroyed 2 of Kira's weapons.

>>23444489
>No im fairly sure the Nu's funnels could also re-dock, that was their entire point
What would be the point of them redocking? The Nu Gundam can't recharge them or give them more propellent. The fin funnels have their internal own reactors and propellent tanks. Nu Gundam just carries it into battle.

Plus Amuro just treats them like disposable missiles.

>>23444515
>return to and be recharged by, Nu is missing this

Then it's a downgrade. The original fin funnels in Nu Gundam. had their own propellent tanks and internal reactor. Hi-Nu giving them a battery instead for recharging purposes is a big step down from having a reactor.

>>23442883
>they were out of range of Veda
VEDA's range is bigger than people think. It could see the ELS infested copied ship that was coming to Earth from Jupiter and beam images to select Innovade agents on Eath.

>>23444705
>The original fin funnels in Nu Gundam. had their own propellent tanks and internal reactor.
I thought there was something about the funnels not being rechargeable and having temporary operation time.

>>23444719
Yeah...the Jagd Doga funnels had an on-board battery. This enabled them to be much smaller, cheaper to produce, more portable, and faster than previous generations of funnels. But Jagd Doga didn't have the ability to recharge the funnels even if they redocked.

Amuro's Fin Funnels were special. They had a built in reactor and propellent. They were basically independent and could keep moving until they ran out of fuel. Plus Amuro considers them disposable and uses them like missiles. He doesn't care about his Fin Funnels returning.

So there's really no need for them to redock to Nu Gundam. Having a dedicated funnel rack would only slow down Nu Gundam and add extra mass to the suit. Amuro doesn't like that. He makes every accessory on his suit to be disposable.

Hi-Nu is just a weird design in the context of the anime and how it's supposed to be used.

There seems to be this obsession within the Gundam fanbase to hate against A-symmetrical designs, and this constant desire to preserve the entire suit during battle. Some Gundam fans seethe at the idea that these suits are military weapons with disposable equipment. Not a "collector car" that must be kept in perfect condition no matter what.

>>23444753
>There seems to be this obsession within the Gundam fanbase to hate against A-symmetrical designs, and this constant desire to preserve the entire suit during battle. Some Gundam fans seethe at the idea that these suits are military weapons with disposable equipment. Not a "collector car" that must be kept in perfect condition no matter what.

Yeah it's like asking why an F-15 Eagle's drop tanks can't redock during combat. These things are meant to be used and discarded.

>>23444753
>He makes every accessory on his suit to be disposable.
Tangential but I swear I saw the bazooka only be used for an ass blast and was otherwise firmly secured on its back, although I'd assume that it was somehow gone by the time of the Axis shock

>>23444815
Amuro picked his bazooka back up after killing Gyunei. Then I think Amuro used it in a sneak attack against Char. Nu Gundam left the bazooka floating in space and attached a control wire to the bazooka trigger, and then Nu Gundam hid behind the rocks farther away. Sazabi flew near the bazooka thinking it was debris. Then Amuro fired the bazooka. Char blocked the rocket with his shield, and the shield was destroyed. Amuro is very innovative.

My one sadness is that Nu Gundam doesn't have a hyper hammer. I would have loved to see Nu Gundam swinging around a hyper hammer on a chain in the final battle against Sazabi.

>>23444789
I'm not sure if the Eagle's drop tanks are the best comparison. The Nu's funnels specifically are incredibly functional, being powerful beam weapons and the first beam shields ever implemented in UC, compared to drop tanks being, well, extra fuel. As much as I like the base Nu's lack of funnel racks, wouldn't it make sense to preserve this advantage for longer, or having somewhere on the suit itself to store them?

You have to account Nightingale (more thrust, more funnels, subarms) when making sense of the Hi-Nu (rechargeable funnel dock, more thrust, extra hidden beam saber)

>>23444892
>As much as I like the base Nu's lack of funnel racks, wouldn't it make sense to preserve this advantage for longer, or having somewhere on the suit itself to store them?
People need to understand that Nu Gundam isn't a general purpose suit meant for everyone. It's a *custom* suit designed specifically for Amuro's preferences. Amuro was in charge of its creation and design. It's made to his tastes. I'm not saying a fin funnel rack is bad, but Amuro doesn't want it. Amuro doesn't want a fin funnel carry rack to add extra weight and mass. Once Amuro launches a fin funnel, he doesn't expect it to come back.

>>23444892
>>23444983
>>23444789
>>23444753
>>23444719
>>23444515
Who says Nu Gundams fin funnels can't re-dock? Aren't they just attached to eachother via magnets? They don't need a massive carrying rack. Just magnetize back onto Nu Gundam.

>>23444889
>Nu Gundam left the bazooka floating in space and attached a control wire to the bazooka trigger
Oh, wait no, I remember that! Amuro's such a fun guy.
And yeah, him having a Gundam Hammer again would have been really nice.
Also tangential but what the hell is this, it came with the MSIA that had the regular Gundam Hammer as well, I don't think it's the Hyper Hammer, comparing it to other pics of it.

>>23445062
The Japanese Website says they're the Hyper Hammer and the Gundam Hammer.
https://www.amiami.jp/top/detail/detail?gcode=PMD-MIA-0124

>>23433164
It's the classic sci-fi problem of "Why fighter craft in space when missile?" but in giant robot form. Because in the end a Mobile Suit is just a means to deliver a beam rifle to within range of its target, so a beam rifle that can fly itself such as a bit or funnel makes the mobile suit part of "Mobile Suit as Funnel" redundant. If you can already remote control teeny, fuel efficient, fast, and impossible to hit bits, why would you weigh down that bit with a heavy, less maneuverable, slower, gas guzzling, easier to hit remote controlled mobile suit? Now the Mobile Dolls from Wing make more sense because they replace the manned mobile suits entirely and can operate "autonomously" without needing a Newtype or the settings equivalent micromanaging them.

>>23444096
Dude fucking every setting but Wing has a technobabble justification why they use giant robots instead of Fighters and Tanks and Frozen Teardrop eventually invented one for Wing too.
>FC is a super robot show about kung fu fights in spandex
>AW is just a post apocalyptic UC
>CC is again just a post apocalyptic UC
>CE is genetic engineering
>00 is GN tech and planning for linking with Innovators
>AG is dumb and only has a vague bit about "lost technology"
>PD is because MS were invented to cybernetically link to the human nervous system
>AS is because even non-Gundarm suits use Permet to mentally link the pilots brain to the human shaped suit.

>>23445005
yeah, the whole point of the Nu Gundam is that its funnels are rechargeable

>>23444096
WFM for example has dedicated anti drone technology

>>23445231
Oh, thank you. They don't fit that snugly onto the HG's hands but they're still very fun to have, and now I know what they are!

>>23445400
The lore with Gundam Wing is that mobile suits were just outright massively superior to tanks and other weapons. That's the "iron law" of the Gundam Wing universe. Everything is built around that idea.

>>23420621
>Yeah, things started getting pushed hard again during the Zanscare War where the tech gets pretty absurd. The Einrad+Gedlav combo are actual, versatile death machines despite how goofy they look. Cheap, Mass-Produced, and any random soldier can use it.
The MSwheel reminds me of the chink truck in terms of how much of a gamechanger it was.

>>23444702
blatantly ignoring that fact that it wasshura and a fleet of enemies with tons of guided missiles against Kira

but you fav Gundam pilot wouldn't even be better than Kira

>>23445751
based

>>23444702
blatantly ignoring that fact that it was shura and a fleet of enemies with tons of guided missiles against Kira

but your fav Gundam pilot will never be better than Kira

>>23445400
Technobabble quality vary
UC is like an undefeated masterpiece,
AU vary from knockoff of UC, to insulting you for wanting good technobabble.

>>23445400
Note how he only vaguely alludes to what justifies UC? I'm telling you, he's just here to collect yous.
As an aside, I don't get the point of worrying so much about MS justification after the nuke problem is settled.

>>23445754
He's obviously talking about before Orphee showed up...

>>23444702
That skirmish lasted maybe ten minutes in real time and all Shura took out was a single beam rifle that wouldn't have worked anyway.

>>23445895
And yet Athrun didn't lose any weapons at all when he piloted Freedom.

Cheater weapons for cheaters.

>>23446024
>Moving goalposts

>>23446024
Athrun is the most powerful man in the Cosmic Era. It's just not fair to compare people to him.

>>23446098
Kira is more powerful.

>>23445400
>>23445669

>>23446117
as good a justification as any desu

>>23446100
Not according to Director Fukuda.

>>23446616
nigger also claimed there were only two newtypes left in CE so fat fucking luck with that

>>23446681
>The director changed his mind about something years ago so his word can't be trusted
Seriously, what is wrong with you?

>>23446767
I mean the guy changes his word about everything, so what is canon is fluid. We're talking about the guy who said the Strike's Anti-Beam Coated Shield could absorb most of the Lohengrin and when people said it doesn't work like that he just goes "woah really, that's crazy". He does what he thinks is cool and I roll with it because digging too deep into mechanics isn't what the SEED show is about.

>>23446767
I agree with >>23446808, gundam has had a HUGE problem for years staying consistent, there was never anything wrong with the old setup so why does it need to change for a pointless reason that doesn't even affect the story? shinn being a newtype didn't even play into any proper storytelling payoff or benefit, he lost the sword duel and won the fight with the accords without the newtype ability even factoring into the fights.

you should reflect on this and consider what it means to blindly believe someone who changes their mind every day and can't stay true to what they said before, you sound like you don't care when you change your mind because someone else also changed your mind

>>23446808
>I mean the guy changes his word about everything, so what is canon is fluid.
Well, currently Athrun is the strongest, with Kira and Shinn not too far behind (Shinn possessing the potential to surpass them both in time). There's not much contradicting that, so is it really a problem deferring to Fukuda's word at the present moment?
>We're talking about the guy who said the Strike's Anti-Beam Coated Shield could absorb most of the Lohengrin and when people said it doesn't work like that he just goes "woah really, that's crazy".
That's an example of him being forgetful/going with what's cool (as you said), not necessarily him changing his mind.

>>23446814
So the director changed his mind on something he said years ago (not even something said within the show, mind you) and the aforementioned change doesn't even negatively/positively affect the story being told. Somehow this is still something to get indignant about. Again, what's wrong with you?

>>23446818
He's not playing by the rules of the world he was paid to direct a story about, I can't get behind someone who suddenly decides this happened or that didn't happen solely because he wants to undo part of his own work because it's inconvenient.

>>23446824
>A main character surviving something they shouldn't have is breaking a rule in a Gundam or Fukuda setting
>Not even pretending to try and stay on topic anymore
Anon, just say it's autism and call it a day.

>>23446823
It means he's sloppy when it comes to details. You can't have a proper discussion about the world or story or plot issues, anachronisms, and contradictions when it boils down to "well let's just wait for the director's opinion on his own story"

>Again, what's wrong with you?
Christ, you're really gonna complain about wanting more polished and consistent storytelling?

>>23446835
>it was already done by other people in similar stories so we NEED to allow it
Fuck that shit, just try and bring up your standards for once

>>23446840
>Christ, you're really gonna complain about wanting more polished and consistent storytelling?
Newtypes have had jack to do with the Cosmic Era's storytelling until Freedom, and even then Accords are technically something different. The detail you are crying about literally comes about from some interview and has nothing to do with the actual plot being told.
>You can't have a proper discussion about the world or story or plot issues, anachronisms, and contradictions when it boils down to "well let's just wait for the director's opinion on his own story"
And what is contradicting the notion that Athrun is the strongest pilot? The story that claims he's the strongest? The fight scenes that have had him bailing Kira out at least a dozen times over?

>>23446844
>I want things to be consistent!
>Fukuda consistently uses miraculous survival to save his main characters (typically after they fuck up big time)
>That doesn't count!

>>23446853
>Newtypes have had jack to do with the Cosmic Era's storytelling until Freedom, and even then Accords are technically something different. The detail you are crying about literally comes about from some interview and has nothing to do with the actual plot being told.
That's the problem. What is the point of even introducing more newtypes if they're not going to have any-fucking-thing to do with the plot? It's like the coordinator fertility plot idiocy that goes nowhere, does nothing, never gets brought up, and is never addressed.

>And what is contradicting the notion that Athrun is the strongest pilot? The story that claims he's the strongest? The fight scenes that have had him bailing Kira out at least a dozen times over?
Oh, I don't care about that. All of the bits you mentioned about Athrun being the strongest is 100% factual in all ways. I was calling out people for using the director's words from online interviews and twitter posts as a credible source.

>>23446859
>That's the problem.
It's not even remotely the same problem you were complaining about until now though. Even then, what's the problem if one aspect of the story doesn't automatically lead into something bigger? It's not like the half-second spent animating a Newtype flash is cutting into something else.
>goes nowhere, does nothing, never gets brought up, and is never addressed.
Did you never watch Destiny? Even then, the entire caste system that even dictates mating suggested by the Accords is directly affecting that.
>I was calling out people for using the director's words from online interviews and twitter posts as a credible source.
Are you going to do the same thing if he says Kira's hair is brown? Obviously, Fukuda's not perfect, but we don't need to do this song and dance over every little thing he says.

>>23446814
It's kind of a problem with such a long-running series and adding different writers to the mix. Even Tomino is guilty of it, because while direct hits to the generator from a beam could cause catastrophic damage before, it was never to the same degree Victory Gundam portrayed it. So they had to retcon in a reason that SNRI's new generators REALLY don't mix well with beams.

>>23446818
>There's not much contradicting that, so is it really a problem deferring to Fukuda's word at the present moment?
Back then, the production staff's official statement was Kira > Athrun > Shinn. I can't find any direct sources of it anymore, but you'll see it in old Japanese discussions and they'll bring up the same thing generally. Personally, I find them in the same ballpark with different specializations. During FREEDOM, they all had different fighting styles, and some were even restricted because of it (Shinn being in Immortal Justice and focusing on disabling versus outright killing). However, it all came down reciprocal love in the end to defeating their enemies. Shinn having Stella and Luna, Athrun having Cagalli, and Kira obviously with Lacus while their enemies had no one on that level.
>That's an example of him being forgetful/going with what's cool (as you said), not necessarily him changing his mind.
It's a kind of a two-part issue. The changing his mind part went toward making Mu alive in DESTINY, partially because he was popular and also because well, Fukada likes him a lot. So they retconned his shattered helmet and removed it in the HD Remaster so they had more ambiguity on his survival.

>>23446859
>>23446867
I get that if you're going to introduce Newtype moments, they should play a bigger role just because it's a freak mutation that has a lot of psychic and empathetic moments surrounding it, and it feels like adding another layer of being super amazing on top of their already naturally gained SEED factor. I also don't want it to go to the same level Unicorn and Narrative went where Newtypes really are just Gods and are indeed the next leaders of humanity though. It's kind of hard for me to pinpoint a side character that should have developed Newtype abilities to be empathetic though outside of like...Luna.

>>23446874
Which is to say nothing of the biosensor...
>Kira > Athrun> Shinn
To be fair, that's not necessarily Fukuda making that statement. I get where they're coming from, though. Will/conviction were the most important thing to bring in any battle for Destiny, and Kira arguably had the most until Angel Down, which meant he was practically untouchable until then. At least there's a simple in-universe excuse this time around if that really was the case back then.
>The changing his mind part went toward making Mu alive in DESTINY, partially because he was popular and also because well, Fukada likes him a lot.
I thought the real reason Mu survived was because Fukuda thought SEED was going to be a standalone story. I remember someone saying that he said he wouldn't have done the sacrifice scene if he knew they were greenlit for Destiny.

>>23446859
>I was calling out people for using the director's words from online interviews and twitter posts as a credible source.
They ARE a credible source. He's literally the Director of the anime. His word is priority above all. And BTW those "databooks" you keep talking about as real sources? Fukuda literally said in an interview that he approves what can and can't be written in those databooks. He's even told the databook writers to remove information from earlier databook releases because they made a mistake. That's why you don't see mentions of beam sabers not being to "clash" anymore. It was a mistake from the databook writers and they removed it. Fukuda has authority over the databooks. He is the big mastermind behind it all.

>>23446886
I cut the Biosensor slack because it only affects the machine's capabilities itself like forming aura shields and strengthening beam sabers. We also see that its true effects don't show up if the Newtype didn't form connections. Scirocco is no doubt an extremely powerful Newtype and he managed to independently develop his version of the Biosensor, but it only enhances performance and never accomplished anything Kamille did. Otherwise, he wouldn't be shocked at hearing Four and Rosamia, not even mentioning that he should be able to see Sarah's ghost and use her in that case.

>At least there's a simple in-universe excuse this time around if that really was the case back then.
We kind of see this with Shinn being more reckless and erratic toward the end. He's fairly skilled, but he's just being propped up on a pedestal by Durandal and kind of Rey. Similarly, when he's fighting Athrun near the end, he's extremely confused and lashing out to the point he tries to...palm Infinite Justice's Beam Sabers. Why lol.
>I remember someone saying that he said he wouldn't have done the sacrifice scene if he knew they were greenlit for Destiny.
"元々アニメのSEEDで死んだ描写してたのが、リアマスター版で生きてるかも?って演出に差し替えて変更したり、DESTINYでネオは元々はムウではないクローンとかの予定だったけど、バルトフェルドとマリューじゃ釣り合わないとか、ムウが生きていたということにした方が受けるだろうって事で途中から改変になりました。監督がネオとムウに関しては途中で設定は変えたとSEEDの本で回答してます。"

"一応死んだことになっていました…・が続編のDESTINY制作が決まったので生きてたことになりました。"

I don't know why it's hard to find any evidence of these interviews, but this is what I find from general discussions back in like 2010.

>>23446967
The Mwu dying scene can still work if we find out that Neo is NOT Mwu. That Neo was someone else entirely.

>>23446911
From what I can tell, this is a mismatch between the director and production team/staff. Because in the original SEED runs, they do beam saber clash, but the HD Remaster goes out of its way to change a bunch of the clashes to attacking different parts of the MS or the shield. It's probably just because he thinks clashing is cooler lol.

>>23446969
Yeah, that was the original plan I believe but there were a lot of production problems during SEED Destiny, not to mention people were interested in seeing Mu the man himself back again. There was also some weird rumor where a friend of Morosawa said they didn't like Mu died and then she changed it for the Remaster, but that sounds even less plausible than Fukada deciding Waltfeld and Murrue wouldn't work out.

>>23446970
From what I gather, Fukuda really digs shields and considered them an essential part of a mobile suit's look. He didn't want them around only to get sliced or torn apart in a few seconds, but an active part of the action. Maybe some members of the staff took that to mean making up a reason for why that would be the case. Personally, I think shields being worth a damn in CE is justification enough for their prominence in close quarters encounters.
>>23446972
So they were planning on making him a clone then? Honestly, as messy as bringing Mu back was, I think I prefer what we got.

>>23446970
Fukuda said in another brief interview that he also considers shields as weapons during battle. It you do not counter them, then they will be used as weapons to shield bash your opponents. He mentioned Medieval Knights and Riot Police with their shields as sources of inspiration.

>>23446982
>>23446998
I'm struggling to remember anyone using shields outside of Shinn with the rifle trick, the decapitation of Tolle, and Rising Freedom's detachable one. I think Phase Shift made shield bashing less relevant because it would absorb the physical impact. Got any other examples? They don't have to be Amuro-tier, just in general for bashing or slamming.

>>23447006
athrun shoulder rams the gaia during the brief time that he pilots a leftover ZAKU, and it causes the gaia to drop its beam rifle

>I think Phase Shift made shield bashing less relevant because it would absorb the physical impact
it still knocks the enemy off balance and physically rattles the pilot, even if it doesn't do any damage to the MS itself. that said, phase shift armor isn't really common enough for shield bashing to be obsolete

>>23447006
and then when athrun debuts in the infinite justice, the first thing he does is throw a beam boomerang at shinn to force him to miss a shot and use the moment to shield-slam into the destiny

>>23447010
>>23447014
Thanks, that's good enough for me to see them as viable then. I think my perception is just biased because they reuse the same beam rifle and Windam missile stock animation a lot.

>>23447018
they did a fair amount of kicking and fisticuffs in the show, I don't think it was all specifically shield-bashing only, but it happens enough

>>23447006
>Got any other examples?
Off the top of my head?

Let's see...

Calamity Gundam's shield smacking away Sword Strike's slash.

Athrun using his Justice shield to shield bash Calamity in the chest.

I think there was one scene where Freedom smacked away Raider's Hyper hammer with its shield and causing the Hyper hammer to hit Calamity or Forbidden instead.

I can't remember the name but the Zaft grunt suits in season 1 during the final battle had beam saber claws built into the shield. They shield rammed enemies and sliced apart Daggers.

In season 2....

Zakus shield ramming the Gundams.

Shinn in Impulse Gundam shield bashing Abyss Gundam.


IIRC The Akatsuki databooks say the Akatsuki shield has a heated blade edge on the tip of the Akatsuki shield (the Grey color area) for slicing enemies with the shield without pulling out a beam saber. But I guess Cagalli wasn't good enough to use it.

I think there's one or two more examples but I can't remember at the moment.

>>23447022
Yeah I remember kicking being used fairly often, especially Freedom and Justice in particular.

>>23447029
I just straight mothballed those wow. Didn't even know Raider's Mjolnir Hammer could be shield blocked, since that could break through PS armor. I also remember a GuAIZ ramming its beam claw into an M1 Astray and killing it, but I guess I never considered it a shield for some reason.

>>23447029
>Calamity Gundam's shield smacking away Sword Strike's slash.
Ehh, that's a stretch, it's just a pushing action more than a attack.

>>23446835
Some of us have higher standard of storytelling.
We could talk about 00 literally taking the twin brother of the sniper they killed first series. I can't imagine how little they think of their public to consider that would pass.

>>23447055
I'm honestly surprised Mu gave up that easily. After this attack, he never tried to mess with Calamity again.

>>23446970
>>23446911
>>23446982
>Fukuda really digs shields and considered them an essential part of a mobile suit's look. He didn't want them around only to get sliced or torn apart in a few seconds, but an active part of the action.

Adding on to this, Fukuda mentioned once that he dislikes when Mobile suits don't use both arms in combat. He wants mobile suits to be flexible, and doesn't like "stiff" looking combat. He wants pilots to use both arms and legs whenever possible in battle like humans do. It's probably why Fukuda made them redo the clashing scene between Strike and Duel. The left arms of Strike and Duel are just hanging there doing nothing. The composition is rather flat.

>>23447040
>Didn't even know Raider's Mjolnir Hammer could be shield blocked, since that could break through PS armor.
I have no doubt that the Hammer would probably smash through the phase shift of any of the Gen 1 Gundams. Strike, Duel, Buster, Aegis, and Blitz would all get severe damage from a direct hit even with phase shift. Freedom Gundam is tougher than expected. The designers of Raider probably didn't expect to fight a nuclear powered mobile suit with much stronger phase shift armor. Plus Freedom's shield is a really thick hunk of metal.

>>23447090
Real-life answer is that the remaster didn't have that much intention (or budget?) to add new animation, Perfect Strike's time on screen amounted to maybe only a minute or two max.

In-universe, maybe Mwu doesn't want to bite off more than he can take on since it's his first time piloting an MS in battle and the Calamity is a tougher opponent to crack than the hordes of Strike Daggers

>>23447099
Sounds like he learned well from his mentor. What episode was the hammer redirect?

>>23447006
>They don't have to be Amuro-tier
That's a pretty low bar for SEED verse LMAO

>>23445877
yeah shura already had a ton of back up even before orphee

>>23447147
Considering most Naturals are dogshit pilots, yeah it's actually asking for a lot.

>>23447097
I can understand that. I imagine time constraints and budget didn't allow them to really do the all the battles they wanted to show that, but they at least managed to reserve it for some important fights.

>>23447099
I imagine it also works on MS with TPS armor, it's just there's only 3 of those and they're not actually allowed to kill each other.

>>23447169
>I imagine it also works on MS with TPS armor, it's just there's only 3 of those and they're not actually allowed to kill each other.
4 technically. The recent databooks confirm that Destroy Gundam uses TPS armor as well. Though that depends if you consider Destroy Gundam and MS or an MA.

>>23447089
>Gets called out for moving goalposts
>Still crying about standards after proving he can't even be held to his own for a conversation as simple as this

>>23447186
I thought Djibril was lying about that.

>>23446856
So what you're saying is the writing is consistently bullshit?

>>23447412
See
>>23447214

>>23447010
>it still knocks the enemy off balance and physically rattles the pilot, even if it doesn't do any damage to the MS itself.
It makes me wonder how many MS tactics would be developed to take advantage of this. In real-life, there's many cases where a tank was hit and the crew died but the tank itself is still intact and even functional. The human side of the machine can be soft and squishy. Outside cases like Marida punching the Unicorn in the cockpit to knock Banagher out and the usual cockpit aiming but usually not anti-pilot tactics taken when the enemy's too heavily armored.

>>23447753
>It makes me wonder how many MS tactics would be developed to take advantage of this
Well there were some MS tactics in UC that were designed to attack the pilot. Like those electro cables and electro nets used against Zeta Gundam. They were designed to shock the suit and electrocute the pilot to death, but leave the suit intact. Also sometimes if a suit is hit hard enough, the auto eject feature will activate even if the pilot doesn't want it to happen. I'm guessing the Unicorn doesn't have a pilot eject feature.

>>23446972
No they planned Mwu being Neo from the start, (SEED special edition came out around the time Destiny started and it edited the helmet out) but the only reason they did it was because they didn't expect a sequel. If SEED was stand alone Mwu would have remained dead.

>>23446967
The issue with the Biosensor was it wasn't invented until well after Zeta aired, which is why it's not once mentioned in dialogue at any point. They only thought it up later. The Newtypes just randomly used unexplained superpowers as far as anyone watching the show first hand in the 80s new.

>>23446911
Fukuda is a fucking idiot and doesn't deserve this show or any success at all. If I ever saw him at a con I'd beat the shit out of him.

>>23448493
Are you mad that your precious seed databooks are all controlled by Fukuda? Lmao.
Hehehe.

Did you really think there was some seperate committee that handles all the databooks without Fukuda knowing? Hahaha. That's hilarious.

You need to accept that Fukuda controls Seed.

Do all /m/ directors have this talent for attracting deranged/seething retards, or is it just a chosen few?

>>23448821
no, just the shitty ones. almost never seen good ones being brought up, only their works are discussed, positively

>>23448821
Only when power scaling comes into play. With remote weapons in Gundam being consistently powerful in any universe with little to no counter, this conversation was inevitable.

>>23449637
Who are the good directors?

>>23446859
kek, Don't bother bringing it up. There is a retard that will always "cite" Fukuda tweets and interviews without ever actually linking them.
>>23448821
Popular real robot shows do that. Don't know about Supers though.

>>23450669
I don't think any anon has lied about what Fukuda has said. In fact, when proof and links are actually shown here...I've seen the opposite happen. Some people rage and call Fukuda an idiot and insult him. Saying Fukuda doesn't know his own Seed universe.

>>23450817
I thought it was mostly just that one retard that got banned.