Thread 23479803

>Director Tsurumaki

>In the original plan, I was thinking of Char appearing like a historical figure, like Sakamoto Ryoma. He
would have few lines, and it would feel like watching Sakamoto Ryoma from the present day, and I thought it would be good to depict the parts of the One Year War that weren't depicted in historical fact in a taiga drama-like style. But when it came to having a full-blown drama and thoroughly depicting Char's character, I thought, "That would be quite a heavy burden."

>However, Anno was enthusiastic about the setting in which the original history had been altered, and the world had changed, and found it very interesting. I had said that "the main focus this time is after the war (of the One Year War)," but within the flow of the story, it was necessary to first depict what events had occurred that led to the Universal Century being set in a time unknown to us, so I asked Anno, who had been eager to do so, to write the script for the One Year War part.

>Anno said, "I really want you to play BEYOND THE TIME." I was actually resistant. I love the song too, of course, but I said, "That's Char's Counterattack (Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack)." If the ν (New) Gundam had appeared, I'd understand, but since the original Gundam is in it, I thought, "Maybe it's a little different."

They're starting to blame each other, and they're aware that they've failed.

What on earth is the purpose of having a director? Is Tsurumaki just a figurehead?

Not only is the content itself lame, but the mecha designs are hopelessly lame.

I didn't see any plastic models at all while it was on air, but now there are piles of Sieg Axes and they're not selling at all.

It should have been completely AU and Beyond the Time is the worst song from the 80s. Fuck Anno.

>>23479803 (OP)
Beyond The Time doesn't work. Tobe Gundam would have been genuinely hype.

what's the source for this OP?

>>23479807
>and Beyond the Time is the worst song from the 80s
Kill yourself vegeta

Since you slandered Beyond the Time i hear by say it one of the best from the 80's. Fuck you shit eater.

>no source
so it's fake

it would have fit so much better had they grown some balls and just have it been the Nu, a ghost reaching out for chars faget bussy

>>23479826
>>23479874
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/cdb8f167ff2c595743e7005937d37fa5ef5815cb

>>23479803 (OP)
>They're starting to blame each other, and they're aware that they've failed.


Holy projecting schizo batman

>>23479977
That's a tell you're dealing with a shit post

>>23479818
I'm going to kill you with a rock.

>>23479818
Beyond The Time isn't meant to reflect what version of Gundam is appearing. Of course, it's out of place when you look at it that way but the reason why it's playing is because it's supposed to tell us the fact that the Gundam appears LITERALLY beyond the time (and space). That's the whole schtick that GQ set itself around. I'm more surprised Tsurumaki is so surprised Anno suggested this to him when that's the story he's directing

>>23479803 (OP)
Everything we learn from the behind the scenes on this show is a clusterfuck

>>23479947
fuck anno

>>23479803 (OP)
I like GQuuuuuuX.
I wish I could have a beer with these guys and talk about the show and what it was like making it.

So it IS Anno's Gundam after all

god this series is such a rotting clusterfuck

>>23479803 (OP)
I feel bad for shitting on Tsurumaki now. I probably still would've disliked his GCucks but at least he took it more seriously than Anno did.

OF COURSE Anno wants to KILL Evangelion's main competition and rival

>>23480206
Was there ever any doubt? He wanted to leave his mark on the series since Zeta but only ever got minor credits. This was his chance to live the dream of being like papa Tomino.

>>23479818
No fucker, Ai senshi is the official Hype song for Gramps.

>>23479818
It's there for a lot of reasons

>1) End of a particular era of Gundam
>2) Instantly lets you know it's from the "other" UC
>2)Intrinsically linked to one of the most important Newtype feats

Sure, there's a nostalgic factor at play too. But I can sorta see the intent there.

>>23479818
Meguriai would have been fitting.

>>23479947
Why didn't you post this in the OP

>>23480312
To gaslight you.

>>23479803 (OP)
If Mostlynopal can be believed, Tsurumaki's a pushover for his crew's ideas. It's what got us FLCL being so goddamn good, but it's also what got us this.

>>23480223
Except Nadesico died decades ago.

Who was the braintrust responsible for all the Encounters In Space music playing in an homage show to Gundam '79?

>>23480206
It's not. The whole interview is about Tsurumaki with just sporadic mentions to Anno. Also, Tsurumaki and Enokido already talked about toying with this idea since the days of FLCL

>>23480206
The part about the plot was about the OYW stuff and we already knew Anno had written that.

Suggesting the use of Beyond the Time is knew but hardly that big of a point.

Centering the entire show around Char "Lalah could have been a mother to me" line really is ground zero for why Gqux turned out the way it did.

It is really hard for me to like Lalah Sune because it seems to me she is little more than a plot device half the time. The Origin does a little more to flesh her out, but I feel like so much of UC hinges on this one character.

>>23480353
He's also the one who suggested Machu meet Lalah instead Kai Shiden and Miharu.

>>23479803 (OP)
>>Anno said, "I really want you to play BEYOND THE TIME."
I knew that detail was Anno's fault, that signature lack of decency and subtlety could only be his

>>23480660
Gqux should now solidify that including Lalah in anyway beyond fan service appearences and cameos turns the whole show radio active.

>>23480691
Amuro in this timeline had like five kids with Fraw and makes money off Haro royalties.

It he is actually stuck inside the GQuuuuuuX or some shit.

I am not surprised the dude who wrote the show about a kid piloting his mom is obsessed with Lalah and CCA.

>>23480691
It's not like you can't give her a character, there's a bunch of material you could mine from her if you just forget her central plot purpose of "dies to hurt Amuro and Char". But given Zeta, it's obvious nobody at Sunrise is interested in her as a person, they only care about the idea of murdering women for shock value.

And that's how we got Gundam AGE.

>>23480897
>and makes money off Haro royalties.
The Origin retconned that.

>>23479882
The fun part is, it didn't really matter because the very phenomena they were experiencing could be used to explain the Gubdam not having a "set" form. So it could show up as Nu, and change into other UC Gundams, until it finally settles on the original.

>>23479977
Gqux isn't even as 10% transgressive as other things and yet Tsurumaki just sets off people by basically just coughing I don't get it.

>>23481124
Are you a woman? But hey I agree with you
>But given Zeta, it's obvious nobody at Sunrise is interested in her as a person
Tbf to write the other gender well would need to take actual efforts of researching, does Banrise seem like the kind of company give a shit about female perspectives to you? Year 24 Group was there around the time MSG came out and yet Tomino still clumsy with writing women years later. It does feel like men and women live on different planets sometimes.

>>23480223
giant robo didn't even get off the ground...

>>23481124
>it's not like you can't give her a character
That's not the issue with Lalah. The issue is when she's written to be elevated to be catalyst of literally everything gundam, everytime she gets included in things, the biggest example is quite literally CCA. Lalah appears briefly in a dream, and suddenly everything prior to CCA just doesnt matter to people, the whole spacenoid independance struggle in Zeta, Char's character development in Zeta as he strives to revamp his fathers ideals with the AEUG, the consequences of Haman and Glemy tarding out. Literally all those events, are out the fucking window and don't matter to most people because they now think CCA was about a grudge for Lalah and that's all that mattered to Char.

>>23481319
Blame Tomino

>>23480691
cHAR'S Dream. This is all he wanted.

>>23480265
>This was his chance to live the dream of being like papa Tomino.
Wasn't that eva with the kill'em all ending?

>>23480294
THIS

>>23479807
>>23479818
You two are fucking retarded.

>>23481124
>>23481251
>they only care about the idea of murdering women for shock value

That's not true in the slightest. The men get similar treatment too. i keep hearing this on reddit/YT & doesn't make a lick of sense,

>yet Tomino still clumsy with writing women years later.
Sorry but Tomino, Dezaki, takahata & ikuhara are the only anime directors that seem to know HOW to write women in anime.

>>23481319
I fucking hate this trend so much. Its insane how many people think CCA just "ignores" Zeta and ZZ and acts like a sequel to 0079 when Chars entire motivation only makes sense with Zeta and the first Neo Zeon movement in mind but people cling onto the secondary motivation concerning Lalah and reduce the entire movie to Char acting like a cartoon villain because hes salty about her getting killed.

>>23481251
Did you even watch Wing or Turn A

>>23481395
I agree. Tomino writes women better than most but his only fault is sidelining them often in favor of male characters when they arent antagonists. It even happens in Brain Powerd.

>>23481414
nta Turn A has some of the best but every female character in Wing is a prop outside of Relena and Dorothy.

>>23481412
Not him, Zeta foreshowed his "change" in cca.

>>23481395
>Sorry but Tomino, Dezaki, takahata & ikuhara are the only anime directors that seem to know HOW to write women in anime.
I mean Tomino's attempts are tolerable if I'm going easy on him. But if I really want to scratch the itch then I'd go watch/read works made by female authors instead of looking for "complex female characters" in dansei muke franchise like gundam

>>23481428
>sidelining them often in favor of male characters when they arent antagonists.
Like the other anon said there's turn a.

>>23481319
well if char wanted people to take his father's ideals seriously maybe he shouldn't have orchestrated a grudgematch between himself and amuro and then died whining that lalah could have been a mother to him.

>>23481439
>watch/read works made by female authors
Most of which feel like bland self inserts. Or maybe i don't watch enough. On tomino's writing on women, we just agree to disagree.

>>23481412
Because a lot of it requires you to ignore Zeta. While the political motivations of Char only make sense if you watched that show, his morality just takes a sudden offscreen swerve from where that show ended. He goes from telling Haman and Scirocco "I don't want to interfere with the course of humanity, I'm confident that the youth will make the right decision and Newtypes will naturally win out over those bound by Earth's gravity" to telling Amuro "Humanity is beyond redemtion, they must all be snuffed out directly by my hands and I must die along with them!" out of NOWHERE. There's so little in-story support for the shift that people had to latch onto the implications of a cutscene in a PS1 game and assume "Char lost all faith in humanity when Kamille got brain damage", which itself ignores that Kamille RECOVERS AT THE END OF ZZ. But then again, this is a fanbase that insists ZZ isn't canon and that the compilation where Kamille never gets brain damage at all and Haman just fucks off with Axis is the true canon where CCA still happens as depicted.
And now even CCA's canonicity has been challenged thanks to the Hathaway's Flash movies following Beltorchika's Children continuity, which is incompatible with the Hi-Streamer storyline of CCA.

This franchise's continuity is a fucking joke

>>23481432
I don't think Une or Noin are props.
But regardless of how you feel about Wing's girls, the big difference between them and the girls of Zeta and Victory is that while they are used as a means to motivate the characters, they do so WITHOUT DYING. Wing had many chances to kill its girls off, yet didn't, and it felt like a statement by contrast to the rest of Gundam. Relena's cries for Heero to kill her are hilarious because he tries hard as he can to fulfill her wish, yet just can't pull it off. Sally Po would've been an easy kill in episode 12 to motivate Wufei back into action, yet it's by going into battle herself that emasculates Wufei and forces him to fight despite himself. Hilde could've easily been a cheap kill for drama in the last stretch of episodes, but she survives her data delivery mission against all odds. Une had not one, but two chances to end up dead - she was killed off in episode 25, after all. But instead she's brought back to life and rockets back into the story 20 episodes later to jump in front of a giant laser cannon to save Treize. AND LIVE.
It shows that the writers knew they could use the girls for drama in a way that wasn't by killing them - something Zeta had so much trouble with that it had to reuse the Newtype Girlfriend plotline like seven or eight goddamn times throughout its 97 episode run, despite having a writer on staff the whole time who could actually write drama with women that didn't kill them off.

>>23481447
>telling Haman and Scirocco "I don't want to interfere with the course of humanity, I'm confident that the youth will make the right decision and Newtypes will naturally win out over those bound by Earth's gravity"
dude isn't there another screenshot from zeta during the scene where they're discussing rosamia's medical examination and char says "huh what if artificial newtypes are the way forward"

>>23481472
I'm aware.

>>23481447
Seethe more ZZ tranny

>>23481486
Man, you must've been so pissed to realize Unicorn gave you no choice but to watch ZZ.

>>23481447
You have to consider that in the period between Zeta and CCA, practically *nothing* has changed. The AEUG dissolved into the Federation with Amuro and Bright seemingly content in remaining under their heel, Spacenoids are still oppressed and the Earth is becoming more and more polluted. Char’s goal in CCA isn’t wiping out all of humanity, but destroying the Federation by having Spacenoids dictate the course of civilization with the Earth uninhabitable.

>>23481472
Cyber-Newtypes are a massive IOU in terms of writing and consistency. The only thing it can ever settle on is that they're "the BAD Newtypes" who have been twisted into humanoid abominations by the evils of science and technology and have no recourse but to be killed. If Rosamia hadn't been killed off after two fucking episodes, or if the writing team hadn't watched VOTOMS at all, this might not have been a cancer plaguing the franchise.

>>23481493
Except the Federation just retreats to the moon and doesn't give a shit if the Earth is rendered uninhabitable. Or that humanity will likely starve to death without the natural resources of the Earth.
CCA Char doesn't care about other people, he just wants the entire universe destroyed so he can have the biggest boner in death. It's a total leap in character motivation from where he was at the end of Zeta, one that we're never shown the process for. See also: Neo Neo Zeon

>>23481495
bro I'm not arguing that they're viable form of newtype, I'm pointing out that Char has awful opinions and ideas

>>23481511
Didn't episode 48 end with Quattro realizing that Rosamia 2's situation was fucked up and that he'd damaged Kamille's capacity for empathy by forcing him to be his ideal soldier and kill a chick he was spiritually drawn to?

>>23481518
>that he'd damaged Kamille's capacity for empathy by forcing him to be his ideal soldier and kill a chick he was spiritually drawn to?
I thought kamille decided that on his own and char wasn't even present at the moment where kamille had to snipe rosamia's cockpit before she managed to reach the argama

>>23481447
>his morality just takes a sudden offscreen swerve from where that show ended
It doesnt, the context for his shift to a more radical approach is all in ZZ. When Haman took all that good faith in spacenoids that was built up in Zeta, and dropped another fucking colony on Earth, then when Glemy revived the Zabi extremists and called for Zeon to go even harder than Ghiren did, dashing any further attempts and hopes of Zeon's people naturally embracing his father's stance on total independence from the earth. ZZ was exactly the shit Char said in Zeta as to why Zeon needed to stay isolated.

>>23481447
>And now even CCA's canonicity has been challenged thanks to the Hathaway's Flash movies following Beltorchika's Children continuity, which is incompatible with the Hi-Streamer storyline of CCA.
Are you retarded? The Hathaway movies were made to be in line with CCA, right down to Hathaway being Chan's murderer and recreating a CCA scene from Hathaway's POV. They're not a straight adaptation of the novels, not to mention that Amuro is fucking alive in BC.

>>23481412
Taking revenge on Amuro IS Char's primary motivation. It follows the throughline of Tomino's villains being petty people who mask their selfish desires under grandiose ideals.

>>23481540
Char's the one who sensed his powers and brought him into AEUG back in the first few episodes. A lot of blame for Kamille's suffering is on him for keeping him involved in the conflict

>>23481432
Noin, Lady Une and Sally Po do shit on their own without guys being in the equation. Noin and Zechs are separated after the Antarctica battle and aren't in the same vicinity until the battle at Barge which is in the mid 40s. During that time apart she protected Relena, saved Sally Po when she was held hostage, salvaged the Wing Gundam with Sally Po, found Heero and Quatre after they came back to Earth and brought them to the Sanc Kingdom. Sally Po found the half rebuilt Sandrock and tried to destroy it, stole the rebuilt Wing Gundam and was forced to crash it into the sea because she was being pursued, salvaged Wing Gundam, found Heavyarms and delivered it to Heero. Lady Une spends most of the series away from Treize building relationships between Oz and the colonies, running Barge and the moon base, captured the scientists, forced them to build Mercurius and Vayeate and freed the Gundam pilots from captivity.
The girls in Wing did a shitload that had nothing to do with their love interests. They were fleshed out characters that don't get much love from the fanbase because they mostly aren't pilots and the guys are over the top and popular.

>>23481588
Hilde and Une are pilots, and Dorothy can easily be made a pilot given how good she was with the Zero System. But neither of them get to do mechpiloting in Endless Waltz, and that's the be-all end-all of relevance, so they're fucked.

>>23481583
kamille accepted the duty of becoming a pilot for the AEUG, char wasn't there to whisper direct orders into his ears about every single action he takes

>>23481471
Youre right that the Wing girls are better in regard to not dying like Tomino women who can feel like sacrificial lambs sometimes,
but the tradeoff is that theyre infinitely less interesting or layered as characters compared to the likes of Four, Reccoa, Puru etc.. They are all written to be primarily motivated by their ardent adoration and affection for the respective male character they're made to orbit, all of their motivations and actions just seem to revolve around them, everything they do is in service to them or aligns with the male characters motivations one way or another.
I hate how Sally only constantly talks about how inspired she is by the Gundam pilots, I hate how Noin has nothing meaningful to say to Zechs when they reunite, I hate how Une's personality splits and warps not because of some more profound psychological reason but because she wants to be recognized by Treize, its all so tiresome. I love Dorothy and I hate that her appearance in endless waltz reduces her to another cheerleader talking about how cool and exemplary the Gundam pilots are.

Four and Rosamia for example, although their ultimate purpose becomes motivating the protagonist, still had inner lives and motivations and complexes of their own independent of some target character to orbit.

>>23481389
It fits more and more now that I think about it. Especially since Amuro *is* the GQuuuuuuX.

>>23481852
I feel like you have a hard Zeta bias and are looking past how thin and repetitive its own plotlines get.
>They are all written to be primarily motivated by their ardent adoration and affection for the respective male character
They very much don't. Just look at how little time Relena and Heero are around each other. And Dorothy hardly interacts with any guys apart from Milliardo in the last stretch.

>Four and Rosamia for example, although their ultimate purpose becomes motivating the protagonist, still had inner lives and motivations and complexes of their own independent of some target character to orbit.
>Rosamia 1: "I must stop Zeon from dropping the sky again!"
>Four 1: "My memories and identity were taken from me, so I must pilot the Psyco Gundam in the hope that doing so will earn me my life back".
>Four 2: "KAMILLE IS MY ENEMY, DESTROY DESTROY"
>Rosamia 2: "WHERE ARE YOU NIICHAN? I MUST DESTROY EVERYTHING!"

>>23481887
That's just the last few episodes having no idea what to do with her. Same with Relena.

>>23481907
>"bad writing happening to female characters is sexism" fallacy
>on 4chan

>>23481947
Noin spends almost the entire middle stretch of the show being an active participant in the plot, working with Relena entirely separate from Zechs, busting the Gundam boys out of trouble. Yes, Zechs factors into her motivations, but she has clear goals outside of him and takes action without any way of contacting him.
That she falters at the end is disappointing, but it could probably have gone worse and she could ended up turning coat to White Fang and/or taking a blast for Milliardo and dying to motivate him into destroying the Libra.

>>23481557
>It doesnt, the context for his shift to a more radical approach is all in ZZ
This is all undermined with his own absence through the entire Neo Zeon war, though.

>>23481987
He really should have still been included in ZZ, but it still doesnt change that he was absolutely right as to why Zeon should have stayed to themselves.

>>23482028
>He really should have still been included in ZZ
He was supposed to be Glemy.

Why are people taking Char statements at face value man.

>>23482053
I mean even after Glemy's promotion from stand in joke grunt, to literally Ghiren ii.

>>23482056
There's a reason people call GQux fanfiction, in that you can tell the creatives are diehard, genuine fans of Gundam, but they also seemingly got all the wrong takes about it.

>>23482056
Because the alternative of just writing him off as being bad guy #5763 because he is the designated bad guy, is for plebs.

>>23482071
>the wrong takes
Examples? Genuinely curious. I've been reading the novel recently too and his characterization there is pretty close to Gqux's.

>>23482063
He's splitting the leadership of Neo Zeon between him and Haman, and he's grooming young Newtype girls to be his personal weapons. The initial plan for Char's character arc in Zeta is that he would stop denying his destiny as a leader of Spacenoids, wrest control of Zeon from Haman, and need to be yelled at by Kamille giving a big dumb speech that the whole world would see, similar to Judau's speech to Glemy in episode 46.

>>23482078
>denounces the Hommon's actions in his speech to the assembled Zeeks
>leads an organization called Neo Zeon using Axis as a projectile to destroy Earthnoids

>>23482078
I fucking hate Hathaway and Gigi, though.

Started watching GQux.

>>23482083
Yeah that was the plan if CCA wasnt greenlit, I'm saying that Char should still been in ZZ even after CCA got greenlit. Either trying to talk sense to or outright calling out Glemy and Haman both for their bullshit, shown utterly depressed about everything that happened after the end of Zeta, or something to that extent. Ultimately it would have been best to get a good picture of what his return to Zeon was like prior to CCA. Particularly on the inner politics side of things for Zeon.

>>23482106
No don't, just watch AGE if you want to strangle yourself with Zeta worship

>>23482111
Yeah that's what I was talking about with the whole "goes from decrying accelerationism to trying to annihilate humanity offscreen" posts.

>>23482080
Tsurumaki deciding that Char "Lalah could have been a mother to me" was valid reading of who Lalah was instead of it being the inane ramblings of an adult man who couldn't get over it.

>>23482119
At least AGE had the balls to at least attempt giving us Crossbone stuff.

>>23482119
Seeing it to believe it for myself. Currently not really a fan of the character designs/artstyle and the Clan Battle shtick.

>>23482129
That symbolism was in the original show with the ocean during her whole newtype thing. Oceans represent a smothering mother in the psychology stuff Tomino was into. We even see it again with Orphan in Brain Powerd.

>>23482145
Yas also includes it in Origin too.

>>23482126
i don't think Char in ZZ would be using puru clones. He's got no real reason to need them. The war between him and Haman would have been a war between the true belivers and newly convinced contolists of Zeon vs Haman's simps and Zabi extremists.

>Retcon Lalah to be so powerful she can alter reality repeatedly

I really didn't think you could top the damage Fukui had done to newtypes, sasuga Khara

>>23481319
>>23481412
people are retarded, they still parrot shitty memes like Char is pedo, skip ZZ, have an entirely different image of Char in mind that clashes with the actual show, or that he actually 'got over' Lalah in Zeta.
you should learn to ignore what average gundamfag thinks of the story or gundam in general, for your own sanity.

>>23482296
>Char is pedo
This one is true, though

>>23482219
This is by far the worst part of Gquacks, Newtypes were already magical enough by CCA, they didn’t need to make the strongest ones capable of creating fucking universes.

>>23482219
No, I think "Psycoframe is made from people" is still worse than this.

>>23480016
>>23480033
>>23480279
>>23480294
>>23480303
>>23481389
FIRE UP YOUR SOUL
FIRE UP YOUR SOUL
FIRE UP YOUR SOUL
GANDAMU
Get some taste.

>>23481868
I don't believe anno wanted the song in just because he likes it without some narrative or thematic purpose. Doesn't really add up.

>>23482498
I can believe it because Anno recent works has shown that he's really just massive fucking fanboy of the things he likes. One of the biggest controversies that came out of Shin Kamen Rider was the action director nearly quitting due to Anno being so insistent on the action being like the original show.

>>23479803 (OP) >>23479818 >>23480294 >>23480826
..........It's a dark refrain.
The entire reason the show is using that song there has nothing to do with the fact the Gundam is what shows up.
It's about the lyrics. They're using Beyond the Time in a different context, and taking the lyrics of "You belong to me. I couldn't say goodbye. I wanted to hold you forever.", the Mobius Strip, all that jazz because it's Lalah's song in this context.
It's reflecting how every character in the show up into that point has their obsessions, and are not able to let people go. The whole theme of the show. Every single major character in this show cannot let go of their past and move on with their lives.
Did... did none of you pick up on this? Did you all just think they picked a song to remind you of the wrong robot? Are you fucking serious?

>>23482574
All we wanted was a new gundam show, not even more shameless masturbation to CCA

>>23482574
The problem is that any sort of profound reading of this is massively overshadowed by the feeling that Tsurumaki and Anno are just going on a self-indulgence train about finally being able to work on Gundam

>>23482583
This, for every genuinely thought out choice made for the show, there are like 10 more reasons why ultimately it falls flat and misses the point of the assignment.

>>23482583
>>23482574 here, yeah, I get the feeling of thinking they overdid it and not liking it being too referential. Just absolutely fucking mindblowing to me to act like that song wasn't picked there for a specific reason.
Especially after the entire last quarter of that episode is talking about what Lalah has been through and her rationale for trying to change things while immediately chasing that with Shuji showing a similar obsession and trying to break the cycle.
Like, there's not liking some decisions, then there's pretending they don't exist and saying they should have used "Tobe, Gundam!". They picked it for a reason???

>>23481125
The origin is only canon to itself. It's as much of an AU as gquux or thunderbolt are.

>>23482591
>>23482574
>saying they should have used "Tobe, Gundam!"
Not only Tobe, Gundam! would've been far more ill fitting but tonally bizarre thematically. What a retarded & shit taste counter choice to beyond the time. Fucking retarded ass niggers.
>not even more shameless masturbation to CCA
It wasn't you fucking ape. But shameless masturbation to 0079 Tobe, Gundam! is somehow more fitting to you despite being completely ill fitted with the scene, the narrative & the themes. The lyrics to tobe gundam wouldn't make a lick of sense there. I just can't. These people.. are fucking beyond the retard.

>>23482574
But Gqux couldnt be about letting go of obsessions because it vindicates the obsession of multiple of its main characters. Machus obsession with Shuji that causes her to throw away her ordinary life is affirmed when Shuji reciprocates her feelings and her actions save Lalah and the universe as a result. Lalahs obsession with Char that causes her to willingly stay at the child prostitute house is vindicated when she meets him as a result later. Shujis obsession with Lalah is never questioned and he is portrayed as only being misguided in how he was overprotective of her. Only Nyaan eats shit and the show spends no screentime on reflecting on her character and just has her go back to being Machus friend and presumably still liking Shuji, changing nothing about how she started out.

>>23482573
He's always been this way. Since his fanfilm days. All of his works are just drawing from something he loves.

>Gunbuster doing Getter Dragon's pose
>N Nautilus is just a ship from an old Toho movie scaled up
>EVA 01's face reveal is from Mazinger Z

And a zillion other things. He's always been a fanboy and wears it on his sleeve.

>>23482889
The issue is that his best works are usually cause he's working with other people who are able to rein in some of his eccentricities. His worst stuff are usually when he gets fully indulgent on his fanboyisms.

>>23482917
I'm incined to agree. I think all the best creative types tend to need someone to tell them no and keep them in line. That's a big reason why, say, the Star Wars prequels turned out like they did. Or the Eva Rebuilds.

>>23482923
But on the other end of this you have Twin Peaks Season 3 which is a masterpiece.

>>23482925
The difference is Twin Peaks is a creator fully letting out all of his wild and weird ideas, whereas Anno ideas as of recent have just felt like "I want to recreate something from my childhood"

>>23479803 (OP)
>Is that a heckin disagreement?
>I'M GOSSIPPING

>>23482925
The difference there was that Lynch was one of those geniuses who comes once in a generation. A guy that truly moves to the beat or his own drum. Not to say that Anno isn't creative, but Lynch was on a whole other level than most filmmakers.

That and, like. Lynch isn't rubbing your nose in anything he references.

All the references to The Fugitive in Twin Peaks go over most people's heads.

>>23482858
>machus obsession
You mean her relationship that she redefined by learning from experience and reaching out through her own agency?
>lalah's obsession
She literally knows Char. Her choice to stay is a virtue of being able to face reality. Rose!Lalah's problem was not being able to but that very clearly isn't the case anymore seeing how someone who "shares her mind" is able to persevere.

>>23483278
>Her choice to stay is a virtue of being able to face reality.
>Choosing to stay and be whored out is facing reality
Shits goofy

>>23482889
>Gunbuster doing Getter Dragon's pose
So, when does the Getter Dragon do that pose? Is it in the Getter G manga, the Getter G anime, or is it even later than that?

>>23482917
>he's working with other people who are able to rein in some of his eccentricities.
Do we even know who besides Anno and maybe Sadamoto had any input on Eva? I know that episode 4 at the very least was the only episode Anno didn't do writing for.

>>23483383
Manga. Getter Dragon standing on Uzahra is one of *the* most iconic shots in the manga.

>>23483403
At least with Eva, even though it is based on and lifts many things from different properties that Anno is a fanboy of, Eva is still an original property so there is at least veneer that he's using the influence of his childhood properties to create something new. That veneer is completely lost now that he's actively working on those properties himself.

>>23482625
>Beyond the Retard
kek

>>23483278
>You mean her relationship that she redefined by learning from experience and reaching out through her own agency?
Id be curious to hear more about that because as far as I know Machu learns nothing substantial and doesnt change very much either. She never lets go of her obsession with Shiji and Kirakira nor is that ever questioned. "Redefining" their relationship and "reaching out" to him makes the interaction sound more profound than it is when all she does is tears Shuji away from his autistic methods for one moment and gets him to consider that he doesnt need to reset the universe to protect Lalah by giving him an inane speech about "strong Newtypes" and confessing her feelings. Its really not that complex nor does that redefine their relationship substantially aside from promoting Machu from Shujis obsessed fangirl to genuine love interest, which does nothing to invalidate her senseless obsession with him.
>Her choice to stay is a virtue of being able to face reality.
Dont speak as though getting whored out until Char shows up is her inevitable fate or something. She literally could have tagged along with Machu in the Gqux (who literally ends up running into Char later). Original Lalah from 0079 is the kind of character that will go out to battle and shield Char with her life while Gqux Lalah passively sits around doing jack shit because she thinks its somehow more likely to lead her Char.
>She literally knows Char.
It would have made more sense for her to stay if she didnt.

>>23482999
Twin Peaks is also chock-full of references to Wells' The Trial (e.g. the shot of BOB creeping through the living room is lifted straight from it) and other films. The difference is that film has a huge back catalog of cult or great works, whereas mecha has a much smaller repertoire to reference, and on this board in particular people have spent decades in circlejerk arguments over the lodestones of the genre.

I do think Gquacks has an Eva-like message of moving on from nostalgia and doing something original instead of endlessly retreading 0079. The problem is that in order to create that message, 0079 nostalgia has to take over huge chunks of the show, and the original plotline that's supposed to be "freed" from 0079 (moeblob love triangle fight-of-the-week Gundam) is such a weak premise for the "new" I can't care that it's been "freed".

>>23483555
Also a good point about The Trial.

Gcucks's message about nostalgia was one I picked up on too. But, for me, it was hard to take seriously when they were simultaneously doing non-stop homages to Gundam and other Tomino shows.

>>23483541
>learns nothing substantial
The entirety of the show is her receiving forms of abstract tutelage by meeting women that reflect the type of person she could be come, leading her both towards self-awareness of who she is and what she wants. This culminates with Lalah who, while Machu learns of Challia's emptiness, gives the answer on to what Challia missed: real living with real connections. While her relationship is one-sided at that point, her feelings are very much real and the choice to face the pain that real life entails (for Machu this is leaving behind the procenceptions and misunderstandings she had as a rich kid) is what real strength is, which is the message of the entire show.
>senseless obsession
Senselessly cynical. The last line of dialogue in the show is her going "yeah we'll meet again someday :)" after being questioned on Shuji's whereabouts. Not to mention her acting against his interests beforehand.
>She literally could have tagged along with Machu in the Gqux
She wouldn't have met Char then, who aside from being someone she loved, was someone who needed unconditional love in some form to be a functional person and not a dangerous cynic.

>>23483448
>who is Kazuya Tsurumaki
>who are the 8 billion CGI animators that make the Rebuilds actively unwatchable by animating everything in obnoxiously dense 3D fights where everything explodes into laser beams and blood tsunamis

>>23484088
>abstract tutelage by meeting women that reflect the type of person she could be come, leading her both towards self-awareness of who she is and what she wants
This is true (tutelage is a stretch in most cases, and it's typically conveyed via ineffective exposition), but did you just copy what was said to be the intention of the writers? I agree Machu's arc is clear, but it's just poorly done and unbelievable.

>>23484138
It's largely conveyed through how she acts afterwards. Machu at the beginning wouldn't have shot Annqi, nor would she be as empathetic towards Nyaan.

>>23484166
The flashbacks also add interiority for both Nyaan and Machu.

>>23484166
>It's largely conveyed through how she acts afterwards
I was referring to the "abstract" tutelage, but I think this is false anyway.
>Machu at the beginning wouldn't have shot Annqi
Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. Did you come to that conclusion because Machu explicitly says "you're the one who told me to just go for it!" after she shoots at her? I have some thoughts about that scene and how it fails to work well, too.
>would she be as empathetic towards Nyaan.
What do you mean by this? In the very first episode, Machu puts her life on the line for Nyaan's sake through a show of empathy. It was her primary motivation as Nyaan told her about situation. What gets in the way of this momentarily when Machu yells at her and is sad for a bit, or introduces conflict, is Machu's hangups regarding her life, her idealization of her meeting Shuji and their connection via Kira Kira (its association with her life goals, the "real" sea, wanting to be a "jelly fish", freedom, etc.) that Nyaan threatened inadvertently. Funnily enough, that was ultimately caused by another display of empathy and an impulsive action on the part of Machu.

>>23484088
>Lalah who, while Machu learns of Challia's emptiness, gives the answer on to what Challia missed: real living with real connections
In what way? Lalah lives in an unreality with unreal connections by immersing herself in her dreams and pining after a man she has never met in real life. Machu doesnt reflect on Lalahs behavior critically, so I cant even see how she would learn from her negative example.
>face the pain that real life entails (for Machu this is leaving behind the procenceptions and misunderstandings she had as a rich kid)
This is a completely empty platitude coming from Machu because she barely spends time reflecting on her own status or place in the world. Of course this aimlessness of hers is supposed to be an intentional character flaw but the show spends almost no time resolving it because Machu just copes with it by pursuing Shuji and his goals, leading her to earth and the rose Lalah, who she continues to chase until the finale while spending almost no time reflecting on herself or the world around her, which isnt helped by Nyaan getting seperated from her who was Machus only vector through which she could have learned about the bottom half of society she ultimately remains indifferent to and only shallowly interacted with through clan battles.
>Not to mention her acting against his interests beforehand.
Irrelevant. Im calling it a senseless obsession in the sense that the two characters have no chemistry with each other which makes Machus crush on him look shallow and impulsive. They never even explore the angle that Machu confused her excitement she experiences in the Kirakira with romantic feelings for Shuuji because she feels discontent with her ordinary life, its all played straight and makes for an awful flimsy motivation.
>She wouldn't have met Char then
You dont know that, its literally unexplained how Lalah gets out of the whore house later and why Char shows up where she is.

>>23484226
>Did you come to that conclusion because Machu explicitly says "you're the one who told me to just go for it!" after she shoots at her?
It's about her choice to keep going after reality by following her feelings for Shuji rather than accept the more immediate and safe stimulation of clanbats.
>What gets in the way of this momentarily when Machu yells at her and is sad for a bit, or introduces conflict, is Machu's hangups regarding her life, her idealization of her meeting Shuji and their connection via Kira Kira (its association with her life goals, the "real" sea, wanting to be a "jelly fish", freedom, etc.) that Nyaan threatened inadvertently.
That's what I meant yes.
>>23484248
Rose!Lalah lives in unreality, not Qux!Lalah, and considering they're two sides of the same coin, it's reasonable to assume that by the time the show happens she can cope with it.
>she barely spends time reflecting
Why? Because the show doesn't directly tell you?
>shallow and impulsive.
I've been the infatuated one in this situation. It's reasonable from that perspective.
>You don't know that
The show says so by justifying her decision to stay by having her meet him.
>its literally unexplained how Lalah gets out of the whore house later and why Char shows up where she is.
It burnt down. He's trying to reform so it makes sense he goes to a refugee camp.

>>23484297
>It's about her choice to keep going after reality by following her feelings for Shuji rather than accept the more immediate and safe stimulation of clanbats.
That's not really the dilemma as presented in the narrative, but I don't think there's any point to a back and forth about it. Continue fighting the good fight.

>>23484591
I see what you mean. It's moreso that overtime it became clear that clanbat was the sort of microcosm of convention Machu was trying to get away from in the first place. Everyone she fought was pretty much trying to relive their past or venting odd frustrations that had nothing to do with her or Shuji at all. Annqi herself turned out to be a cynic in such fashion and wanted to continue to use Machu for her own ends.
Anyways I hope this clarifies some things for you. I know it has helped me think about the show more.

>>23481251
Just write a character and make them female
>>23481414
Wing sucks massive bags of dicks
t.just watched wing, moved on much better AWGX

>>23485530
If it's that easy then Tomino wouldn't be insecure about writing women

>>23484073
Yeah that's what I mean when I say that the way of delivering the message basically fucked the show. IMO Anno wanted to show the sterility of nostalgia, what-ifs, call-backs, zeonwank, etc. by contrasting them with the organic and modern world of Gquacks' original plot. Problem is, then you end up with a show that's pointing to itself and saying "See what we're doing right now? That's bad! We should stop doing it! Look at me do this dumb retard thing that Gundam should STOP doing! (please buy toys)"

The only way I could see this approach working would be a longer series with a lot more attention paid to the original characters and their lives, really good writing, make them human, etc., so when the viewer sees the characters he's come to care about become props in some bullshit franchise nostalgia what-if. Get the viewer annoyed at the Zabi/Lalah/Char stuff because it gets in the way of an otherwise compelling story with original characters, and then you can symbolically have the representatives of the new generation defeat stale nostalgia and the message hits. But, based off the early episodes of Gquacks, while the idea was there, the writing team would never have been able to make people care about the original characters. If you want to contrast nostalgia with originality, you have to have a genuinely compelling vision for your originality, and there was nothing compelling (or even original) about the lead trio.

>>23485711
>Tomino wouldn't be insecure about writing women
He doesn't. You got issues.

>>23485711
That's a boomer problem

>>23485798
Why do you feel the need to defend Tomino?

>>23485802
Why do you feel the need to accuse him or imply he's misogynist adjacent? or claim he's "insecure about writing women" which is clearly made up & has no basis in reality.

>>23485931
opps
>>23485931

OMG
>>23485839
>>23485931

>>23485931
I didn't imply he's misogynistic. I already said it, writing for opposite sex is not easy. Tomino's effort may be not hateful but also not that impressive
>or claim he's "insecure about writing women" which is clearly made up & has no basis in reality.
I don't lie. He admitted it in interview

>>23485725
It's why that Tsurumaki interview is baffling, cause he understands the problem of mecha being unappealing to modern audiences and needing to find ways to appeal to the modern youth, but doesn't understand that he's part of the problem of contributing to that perception.

>>23479803 (OP)
BRAVO, ANNO

>>23485725
Anno's works have a messaging problem. Its either too on the nose like Shin Godzilla (Where they basically look right at the camera and say "Politicans should be less shitty") or really muddled like Gcucks and 3.0+1.0 ("Nostalgia bad. But check out this recreation of Last Shooting we did!"). Like, zero in-between.

The episode count really kneecapped the show, but I think that's an industry-wide problem. The big switch to 12-13 episode seasons really hampers how much you can do. And it really doesn't seem to help animators be less stressed or anything, so I don't really get the point. It kills the momentum in shows that are adapted from manga or LNs when you've gotta wait 1-3 years for 12 episodes, and with shows like GQ l it's hard to juggle the setting, character development and the plot in 12 episodes.

I think someone at Khara had cold feet. It was their first real project post-Eva and they didn't feel confident enough to commit to a longer series.

>>23486539
12-13 episodes still involves working your animators to death but squeezing the workload of say a 26 episode show into 12 so you can have flashy sakuga moments in shorter intervals.
It makes shows more marketable in the digital age as you can win over seasonal anime watchers with diminishing attention spans immediately with flashy animation and have more eye catching clips to be shared around social media.

>>23483403
Akio Satsukawa, Hiroshi Yamaguchi, Mitsuo Iso, Shinji Higuchi and Yoji Enokido

>>23482574
>It's reflecting how every character in the show up into that point has their obsessions, and are not able to let people go.
More like Anno and Tsurumaki couldn't let go of the original shows to the point this dogshit show quickly became just a series of empty "REMEMBER THAT PART IN 0079/Z/CCA???...Shuji? Who?"

>>23484996
I think we're mostly in agreement. Also, Machu's deliberation was largely focused on Shuji's killing of the Witch and not giving a fuck about it. Even after Annqi offers her some platitudes, she still can't stop thinking about it. The follow up to this scene is so bad it's funny. That feeling is something she sensed via the Kira Kira, adding another dimension to her relationship with the experience. She expressed that she doesn't know anything about Shuji in the previous episode prior to that event, but now has something more to work on and it isn't the idealized fantasy she imagined. You can say similar awakenings happen throughout the second half for Machu (the attack on the colony, betrayal, prisoner, Earth, and so on).

After leaving the hide out without going in when seeing Nyaan with Shuji (a terrible scene imo), Machu acknowledges that Nyaan was only piloting for her sake and her anger at her isn't justified. The significance of her doing so while in a hand stand and the leaving of the apple. The importance too of her relationship with her busy mother (the expectation of conformity, her questioning if she's actually going to the teacher-student conference, the resigned disappointment when she's late), her disconnect with her environment and classmates, and general thread of convention that follows through these elements is juxtaposed with her relationship with Nyaan,

I really like the idea of Machu's character arc but the execution is not there for me.

>>23488083
That's Machu, Shuuji and Nyaan in general.
They all have good ideas but the execution is lacking when the Green man and in the last two episodes, Char, are also eating up screen time that could have gone to them. Of course even if those two stayed out of the show more there is no guarantee the staff of Gquuuuuuuux would focus on the three major characters.

>>23488201
The execution of Machu, Shuuji and Nyaan really feels like Tsurumaki trying to write young characters to connect to current youth. The problem is that Tsurumaki is no longer the young creative with burgeoning ideas, he's the old curmudgeon who tries and fails to connect with his grandkids.

>>23488257
The he's also pushed around easily it seems.

>>23488257
We cant tell if he is out of touch because its not even possible to tell what the vision was with how mangled or barren the three characters end up in the latter half.

Halfway through Gqux now.

>>23485966
>I don't lie. He admitted it in interview
Fine. Fare enough. I believe tomino is wrong but his statements are obviously more important.

>>23479803 (OP)
>I didn't see any plastic models at all while it was on air, but now there are piles of Sieg Axes and they're not selling at all.
I went to Japan, and everyone and their mother was carrying at least one Light Type Gun cannon whenever I was in a mall

>>23483278
>you her obsessions that where proven right
yeah man, thats the problem

>>23482145
While there where motherly symbols to lalah, the problem lies on Gqux just validating Char's idea that Lalah was the woman he needed, who could "fix him", because they thing with Char is, nobody can fix him, hes the problem

Tomino please come back

>>23486390
it's a F91 reference.

>>23489029
A lot of people in the fandom write Char like they can fix him. Nanai tried to fix him. Hell, he tried to fix himself in Zeta. There are a ton of fanfics where Amuro just like gives up on him because he realizes that Char is a lost cause, but Char and Amuro are lost causes together a lot of the time so it works out.

Me personally I don't think Char can or should be fixed because he is at his best when he is at his worst.

>>23482574
People are SRW-brained

>>23483555
All reference wank is cancer

>>23481447
>This franchise's continuity is a fucking joke
Those are just alternative timelines as Gcucks has shown

>>23489164
Char just needs some fucking therapy, perhaps of a dozen of types. The obscure Gundam franchise shtick is laymen volunteering to be the "wounded healer" therapists (and often, realistically, it makes things worse), when they're really just better off sitting it out down and calling expert cavalry. Newtypes are even more presumptuous and invasive with this.

>>23485711
Any man would get insecure, as you would have to relate to women on such levels you'd rather not even imagine. Only shows Tomino does it by the right principle.
>>23485966
>but also not that impressive
Because, at the end of the day, it's not magic and the results are roughly what you'd get if you had a woman writer of the same sex-irrelevant parts of the mindset come in and write the woman characters.

Reccoa is an amazingly well written character. I don't understand how killing female characters makes you sexist when its a war show and men die too. I never got misogynistic vibes from Zeta that much. I think he just ran out of ideas on how to kill people.

>>23489293
people hold a higher standard for women as compared to men in writing while also having lower tolerance regarding their actions.

>>23486763
>Mitsuo Iso
Did he ever do anything after EoE and Ghost In The Shell? I feel like he just disappeared from the industry after doing the big setpiece fights in those.

>>23489293
>I don't know what sexism means outside of killing female characters

>>23486739
That sounds about right. It's just frustrating. And it doesn't even work for most anime. Most studios aren't Khara and Science Saru and shit. A lot of shows still look awful or cheap, even with 12 episodes. One episode of Shield Hero this season was so QUALITY that I was actually blown away that Kinema Citrus could shit out animation that looked as cheap as it did.

Better than the state of the American animation industry at least. Works like Invincible or DMC have budgets that anime studios can only dream of, but still look like cheap flash animation.

>>23489305
Writing a male simp who does dumb shit for pussy is fine but writing a female one who does dumb shit for dick makes you sexist.

>>23489417
Reccoa’s actions makes more sense when you realize she was never driven by any particular ideology besides her naive belief that men are to care for women, women are to be cared for by men.

Tomino was right.

>>23489417
people hate Hathaway and Katz, though.

>>23489417
>writing a female who does dumb shit for dick makes you sexist
Why is it bad when Reccoa does it but okay when Haman does it?

>>23488083
Some interesting insights here. For me personally, while I did connect with the characters I can understand why others did not. One critique I did have is that the very dense structure of the show can hinder the emotional connection the characters. I think at least 1 more episode could have helped but it is what it is.

>>23489671
it's also bad when haman does it, people just gaslight themselves into liking it to maintain the ZZ good Zeta bad agenda

>>23486539
Gqucks wouldn't be saved with a longer episode count without the writers knowing what they were doing. Tongue-in-cheek scenes like >>23486390 work for comedy, not a supposedly serious story.

>>23489029
I read that more as Lalah seeing Char as her savior, and that being unhealthy on some level, and she doesn't completely shed that in the ending. The ending of GQux just isn't clean, on purpose.

>>23489535
It says a lot that Emma is constantly giving her shit for making decisions based on this axis.

>>23489679
Yeah, I think they did a good job focusing on Nyaan and Machu, but you definitely feel a bit wanting on getting just that little bit more out of them. FLCL was like this too, same with Diebuster.

>>23485725
I never took GQux's looking back as if it was outright admonishing it, just wondering what the purpose was of looking back in a cycle without moving forward at the same time. Not being a slave to past experience, but using them as a platform to stand on to move forward.

>>23489881
>The ending of GQux just isn't clean, on purpose
the ending of GQux is as clean as it gets, Char literally goes "ok im not gonna do CCA" and thats the ending

>>23489679
I think the only one of the main 3 they did kinda alright was Nyan, but shes also the one that gets the least to do and goes most underutilized

>>23489888
Yeah, and in Zeta, the Titans were defeated, Kamille's arc ends, and there's nothing else after that.

>>23489900
>Kamille's arc ends
yes? Kamille's arc ends in Zeta, what he gets in ZZ is closer to an epilogue, his story gets a full satisfying ending in his own show because that one was well written

>>23479803 (OP)
I fucking knew it

>>23489910
and you're two for two for only reading half of my sentence, good job

>>23481490
what are you talking about? I watched Unicorn and there's no need to watch ZZ?

>>23489993
would you judge Zeta based on what happens on ZZ?
Do you judge 0079 based on CCA?

>>23489351
He was the director and writer of Den-noh Coil, one of the best anime of the 2000s and of all time.

>>23489881
>Emma is constantly giving her shit for making decisions based on this axis.
Also when you consider that Emma's stance through out the whole show is "You DO we are fighting in the middle a live war, right?" It's wild I keep seeing Emma being used as an example of Tomino critizicing women being unfit for the work place when Emma was bar none like the most consisently sane person in Zeta.

>>23489671
Reccoa gets more shit simply because she's not as capable as Haman is, both are guilty of similar (but ultimately not the same) mistakes but people tend to overlook those in Haman's case because she was more or less keeping Zeon's shit together singlehandedly and that's magnitudes more than Reccoa ever did.
Haman's oneitis with Char sure ruined her life but even in her deepest moments of spite she was not thinking with her pussy ALL the time, she had other priorities and kept her shit together most of the times, Reccoa's entire life on the other hand was about thinking with her pussy and she never really amounted to much on top of that deranged behaviour leading her to get constantly used and humiliated by multiple men until her last hours.
Fundamentally, the difference between Haman and Reccoa is that Haman was a deeply wounded but also extremely capable woman who couldn't get past her oneitis and hatred for Char while Reccoa was a dumb broad desperately looking for a nonexistent "prince charming" to sweep her off her feet and lead her to a life of leasure.

>>23479803 (OP)
cant wait to hear just how retarded things were behind the scenes as they scramble to shift the blame for this dogshit onto someone else

>>23490161
Pretty much this & i love both of the bitches

>>23489293
i think so too. We need MORE Reccoas in anime & less boring atya atya~

>>23489417
That's how folks who claim tomino's bad or "weird" at writing women seem to behave.

>>23489649
people need to start saying he's bAd at writing men & women than

Finished watching GQux. What the hell, Lalah has the power to create parallel universes/alternate timelines?

>>23496906
its lalah. Not surprisingly.

>>23481386
I disagree. Whenever we see char interacting with lalah, hes not really interested in her, he’s interested in her power and how to exploit it. I think if he really wanted to live a family life with her (or any other female), he would have faked his death or something.

>>23498027
>he would have faked his death or something.
Huh!? When..at any point would he be able to do that with lalah alive?

>>23489671
I would rather that Haman not be motivated solely by Spurned Woman logic, it ruins her character.