Thread 720638085

You can't defend random battles as good game design without appealing to nostalgia

define "good" game design

>Pokemon is le bad xD
>The only JRPG where you can consistenly turn off random encounters when you want to explore
At least FF has chocobos, but i just lose any motivation the explore dungeons

>when I make up enemies to fight in my head
nobody has ever defended random encounters, there's a reason every modern RPG is "hit enemy to start fight" you fucking faggot

>>720638380
>nobody has ever defended random encounters
have you ever been on /vr/

>>720638085 (OP)
it is good game design

What's wrong with random battles?

How can you not defend random encounters when the literal peak of combat and map design in video games has it?

>>720638712
I think it depends on the the encounter rate, if It's too high it becomes tedious

>>720638085 (OP)
They add a risk factor to exploring, making it potentially dangerous to take detours and creating something surmount when you go off the beaten path for treasure or punishing you for hitting a dead end. Rebirth would've unironically been better with random encounters in the field areas, combat is too sparse as-is and just scripting predetermined monster spawns at specific places was fucking lame.

>>720638334
There are others. FFX has No Encounters gear.

>>720638829
will there ever be remakes for these older wizardry games?

>>720638380
What's wrong with random encounters? Something happens unexpectedly? You think surprises are bad? Is that because you are so incompetent you can't react to unexpected events?

Sounds like a skill issue. Nothing wrong with random encounters.

Another logical fallacy you make; every modern RPG is dumbed down, therefore "games being dumbed down" is good. Nope, doesn't work like that.

>>720638829
Wiz 1-3 aren't the peak of anything and they phased out random encounter after the llylgamyn trilogy

>>720638085 (OP)
The worlds of RPGs are meant to be dangerous and feel as such. For that you need random encounters where enemies may have the initiative. Nothing is lamer than games that let you just avoid the combat.

>>720638085 (OP)
I think it's slightly better than having to reload an area entirely in order to grind, provided the base encounter rate isn't too high and the speed of encounters isn't too slow. It does get grating if you can't go more than two steps between encounters. Also it means you can have monster encounters without cluttering the map with obtrusive monsters crawling around.

I will never understand people pissing and moaning over random battles. What difference does it make if you can see the enemy first or not when it's unavoidable? You have to battle either way so why be mad about the random ones? I watched some retard playing a jrpg once and they did a big tut and whine every single time a battle started. With no battles there's literally no gameplay, but they dropped the game all because of random battles. No wonder they're adding YouTube mode to 7R.
It sucks that pandering to retards has finally reached the point where games have hamburger helper options. They won.

>>720638085 (OP)
What's the alternatives? Enemies in the same map? Then its too easy to just avoid them.

>>720638085 (OP)
The initial idea is "resource management"
but you quickly get so swole you don't spend any resources and just mash X for free exp and money.
Dungeon crawlers perfected this with more intricate combat systems and actually dangerous enemies.

>>720639078
Faggot this is the disc that had the amazing remake of Wizardry IV: Return of Werdna AND another version of it. Where the hell are you getting 1-3 from?

>>720639010
I think they remade the first one but it looked like slop to me. I don't know if they can do it right its not really how I picture these games, this PSX release is some of the best portrayal of how I actually imagine them and is a perfect game.

>>720639078
That’s the 4 and 5 remake game.

>>720639291
>they did a big tut and whine every single time a battle started

>>720639353
>>720639367
Ah my bad, it's New Age and not Legacy, my point still stands, especially if you think 4 is a good game since that one already uses roaming enemies rather than random encounters.

I seriously am convinced OP would get filtered by the first room of Wizardry IV lol not the floor but rather the room you start in

>>720639291
What's the issue with giving the player agency to choose when they want and don't want to battle?

I really like how SMT handles encounter rates in most games with spells for it as you approach mid game usually

>>720639309
Having enemies on the map could give opportunities for stealth mechanics, and even a free preemptive strike if you manage to get the jump on them.

>>720638085 (OP)
I like it for dungeons as a sort of endurance test. Bonus points for no save or heal before bosses like dragon quest 8. The 3ds version butchered it but all the zoomies love it because their adhd brains can't handle random encounters

>>720639309
>Avoid everything because you just might
>End up cockblocked by the first boss because you didn't fight shit and your characters are weaklings
Just because you CAN avoid them doesn't mean you should, but random encounter faggots are so mentally challenged and they do tend to have freudian lapsuses like this

Random encounters are kino. They represent TRUE roleplaying. In real life, you don't see shit coming sometimes, tough luck faggot.
Modern so-called "RPGs" with their telegraphed, carebear-ass enemies on the overworld are for literal infants who need their hands held every step of the way. They can't handle the unfiltered thrill of getting ganked by a group of goblins when they're at 1 HP and the last save point was two hours ago. It builds character. It separates the men from the boys. It's the essence of gaming, you absolute zoomer newfags. Go back to your mobile gacha games if you can't handle a real challenge.

>>720639514
Limitations/restrictions exist in games to make them challenging. If you can just "turn off" encounters, then there's no need to even think about strategizing, you can escape a dungeon to the nearest town and heal whenever you want. It's the same stupidity as allowing the option to lower the game difficulty halfway through the game. Fuck that.

>>720640034
>you can escape a dungeon to the nearest town and heal whenever you want
Sure, but you still can't progress the game. You're not avoiding challenge in any sense, you're just postponing it.

Maybe, but what I can do is call you a faggot.

>>720639937
I think it should be a two way street. Yes, enemies can jump and gank you, but you can also jump and gank them. That keeps it fair AND realistic.

>>720639609
That's a good point actually. I prefer games that do it like that. But the games that just turn random encounters into encounters that begin when an enemy collides with the player usually do it horribly. Lately I've been playing one where it's possible and even easy to avoid every enemy.

>>720638085 (OP)
I like seeing the enemies on screen so I don't have to run around in circles hoping to fight the ones I want or crossing my fingers there'll be a fight soon

>>720639774
>>End up cockblocked by the first boss because you didn't fight shit and your characters are weaklings
If a game is well designed, this shouldn't ever happen. You shouldn't be rewarded with easy passage through a dungeon because you're good at dodging enemies, just to be punished hard later and realize you have to grind now.

>>720639020
>What's wrong with random encounters?
because they become a chore after a certain point in the game

The randomness has an appeal to it. Even if I don't personally like it in most cases. It's a sort of mystery tax that helps spurn maintenence shopping like poisons and also prolonges gameplay in a way to facilitate a slower but less organized match up. I tend to beat every random counter I get in jrpgs as it serves for my grind. Very rarely will I try to install flee unless it fucks my builds massively or is resource prohibitive. People aren't in the ebony to hate random battles but I think they are in the wrong for claiming they are an objective bad game design element. They just get applied poorly.

>>720638085 (OP)
I can. They are designed to drain your resources through attrition. Travelling halfway across a monster-ridden world shouldn't be without risks, and it's immersive to stop in towns along the way so you can rest and resupply. It also adds tension to dungeon exploration, since you have to explore efficiently and maybe make multiple runs if you want to get all the loot out. It's way better than power-levelling and then rushing through all the bosses.

>>720640110
You missed my point. There's a strategy involved to exploring a dungeon, the reason you even have items that you can take with you is to give you a finite supply of resources to strategize with. What's the point if you can just turn off encounters and go to a town and heal?

>>720640341
Not for me. And if they don't become a chore for me, that means they don't inherently become a chore. I also don't see why initiated encounters couldn't become chores for some people.

>>720639020
The problem with random encounters is generally frequency.

Getting into random encounters when you just want to go somewhere is infuriating and ruins the experience.

>>720639609
That reduces the focus on stats and luck, which is the identity of a JRPG. Why have high agility, luck, or a party member with passive skills that make it more likely to get a preemptive strike when you can just get behind the monster for guaranteed preemptive strikes?
It also makes grinding more tedious, since you are incentivized to wait for the wandering monsters to turn around like guards in a stealth game.

>>720640671
Then the problem is not random encounters, but the encounter frequency, which I agree can be too high.

>>720640298
>If a game is well designed, this shouldn't ever happen.
You know nothing about good design which is why you think random battles are good.
>You shouldn't be rewarded with easy passage through a dungeon because you're good at dodging enemies
Why not? You can do the same thing in games with random encounters by using objects or skills that turn them off by the way.
Why should I be pestered by dozens of shitty fights that take no effort and only exist to nag me about reaching a certain numerical threshold?
Why shouldn't I be punished for not understanding how to play the game at a basic level?
You can't answer this because all you play is dogshit made for people who never turned their brain on one day in their life and want to "play" some shitty excel simulator on autopllot while listening to podcasts rather than engaging with an actual game.

>>720638923
FF8 has Diablos GF and he can be taught first Half-Enc and then No-Enc. Many players didn't know you can choose which abilities the GF learn.

FF6 has Moogle Charm for Mog to prevent random encounters

>>720640671
In many JRPGs, once you get super rich, you can spam encounter blocking items or spells that stop random encounters with enemies of a lower level than you.

>>720639514
>What's the issue with giving the player agency to choose when they want and don't want to battle?
>>720640671
>Getting into random encounters when you just want to go somewhere is infuriating and ruins the experience.

Starting to realise most of the complaints are from autists or zoomers who just see red the moment they are expected to do something they didnt want to. Because they aren't used to being denied what they want for even a second.
>I think I'll walk to that door now
>random encounter
>AAAAAUUUGGGHHHH I WANTED TO WALK TO THE DOOR WHY AM I BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO THIS ISNT THE STIMMIES I WANTED I HATE YOU MOM I WONT CLEAN MY ROOM I HAVE AGENCY OVER MY LIFE

>>720638085 (OP)
I can. They make the player put more consideration into which way they're going. Of course this only works if the battles are dangerous and/or if the player can only save at towns. As your party becomes stronger you can naturally start exploring further into new regions.
That said I do think random battles generally only work well in overworld maps. I want to see the enemies in town and dungeons screens.

I don't mind them but that have to be balanced and tuned, I feel like jrpgs just use it as padding to waste my time, the drawn out flashy combat sequences combined with diminishing xp returns after a certain level

>>720638085 (OP)
It was only a thing because it's a holdover from RPG games' source from decades ago (Dungeons & Dragons) and random encounter tables whenever you traveled, or traversed dungeons.
Hell, a majority of tables dont' even bother with random encounter tables anymore, unless they're trying to kill time if things go way off the rails from what they planned for the session.

>>720641052
absolute nuclear projection

>>720641052
You are probably right, zoomers haven't been properly raised by their parents.

>>720638085 (OP)
They were too lazy to put balls representing enemies that if you bump into triggered a battle

>>720641169
How does that work? I'm fine with random encounters.
Your projection accusation just makes me think you've had a nerve touched.

>>720641052
Now you have been denied the turn-based remake that you wanted and you're seething like a child.

>find all of the enemies in an area
>force spawn any 1/9999 bullshit
>appreciate the artistry
>turn off encounters
>edit level to match the next boss
not my problem
>but the noencounterium you get double digit hours in-
not my fucking problem

>>720640905
>You can do the same thing in games with random encounters by using objects or skills that turn them off by the way.
But those items cost resources. In games with good design, they are rare, explicitly to prevent you from skipping encounters.
> be pestered by dozens of shitty fights
If you don't enjoy the gameplay just watch the story on youtube and play a game you do like, don't push stupid ideas to change games you don't even fundamentally enjoy.

Also I think you have to say things like "you know nothing about good design" and "you can't answer this" because you know your argument is weak. If you're getting upset/emotional you can take a pause from posting.

>>720641445
I didn't want a turn based remake, what kind of schizo posting is this? The remake combat was good

>>720641505
>In games with good design, they are rare
And those games would be?
Hopefully they also have actually good combat and encounter design and aren't just physical torture
>If you don't enjoy the gameplay
I enjoy good RPGs, not bad ones, my argument is sound because random encounters are pretty much dead and widely accepted to be dogshit game design for several decades.

>>720641445
he didn't mention 7R or turn based combat at all. are 7R fans really this paranoid and insecure? the haters are inside the walls, they're in the goddamm walls!!

>>720640905
>You know nothing about good design which is why you think random battles are good
When a nation declares war on you in Europa Universalis, that's a random battle. You didn't choose it or its timing, the game did. Explain how this is bad game design and why only you should decide when enemies attack you? Do you realize how weak you sound, like you want every single thing in life to go your way? Do you understand the fun in video games comes from obstacles.

>Why should I be pestered by dozens of fights that take no effort
This isn't related to random counters, plenty initiated encounter games share this same expectation. It doesn't sound like you enjoy video games. Go watch movies or Netflix slop.

>>720641580
>>720641774
the next time you want to say something bad about ffvii remake, remember squareenix has a higher shareholder value than sega.

>>720641824
Europa Universalis is not an RPG.

>>720641938
Not relevant. You said random battles are bad game design. Switching genres doesn't make good game design suddenly bad. Good is good.

>>720641851
SEGA may be retarded but at least is getting their projects scope at a resonable scope. Square is bleeding money without releasing games worth the budget.

>>720642001
This is a JRPG thread, Europa Universalis is a strategy game, some things that make sense in some genres do not make sense in other genres, you trying to derail an argument by being a colossal retard doesn't change anything, game design is not universal which is why nobody wants weapon items in Gran Turismo just because both Wipeout or Mario Kart have them and all of these are essentially racing games.

>>720642140
You are blinded by nostalgia. Both Remakes are flawless 10/10s and you are unable to enjoy anything.

I like random encounters, Skyrim being a good example;
Vampires
Vigilants
Pilgrims
Hunter
Hunter+thief
Farmer+wife destroyed farm
Farmer/giant+cow
Cultists
Hedgemage/necromancer
Skeletons
Spriggan
Forest beasts
Slaughterfish
Legion
Rebels
Companions
Caravans
Bandits
Thiefs
Assassins
Revelers
Hired thugs
Thalmor
Patrician+guard
Drugdealers
Its a great way to clear the collected resources in different ways. Skyrim had the encounters but did not optimize.

>>720642242
This but unironically

>>720641505
>using objects or skills that turn them off
It's also worth noting that in many JRPGs they are only effective against enemies that are weaker than you. It's basically a way to explore an earlier area without having to fight enemies you have long outscaled by now.

>>720642236
Genre is not relevant. Good game design is good game design. Genre is just a name. You are not respecting logic.

I'm not adding weapon items to Gran Turismo. I'm stating Europa Universalis has random battles. Like many JRPGs have random battles. I'm not adding anything. Clearly if you approve random battles in one context, then "random battles" are not inherently bad game design, unless you want to contradict yourself. And if they are not inherently bad game design, then you can make them good in JRPG context as well. Simple.

Niggaheim

I like hearts r but the random encounter rate in that game is insane as fuck

>>720642242
Original is not perfect by any means, it's outstanding. Remake is a sanitized Unreal asset shop flip with no ambition. It's the opposite from Square golden era.

Poorly tuned overworld encounters are infinitely worse than random battles. AI so godawful that dodging them is a joke, so you can go an entire dungeon without getting into a single fight. You basically have to force yourself to fight which feels like a grind, and you don't even know how many fights you have to get in to be an appropriate level. You either end up underleveled or overleveled, there's no in-between. And the worst of all is that it takes away any tension in exploring, there's no need to worry about getting into a fight that can drain your resources or escaping a dungeon when you're low on resources when you can just effortlessly dodge everything.

>>720642808
I'm only in this thread to make sure the honour of 7R is defended. I will crush you and even anons who didn't mention or insult 7R at all. This is all that matters to me. You will regret your words.

>>720642513
>Genre is not relevant.
Genre is absolutely relevant which is why you don't get terraria or minecraft style building in something like DOOM Eternal or why there's no 60-99 seconds time to finish a fight in Devil May Cry but there is in any fighting game.
Genres are not names, they're formulae, which is why you agree you're not adding weapon items to Gran Turismo, because it would be fucking retarded and ruin the game despite enhancing some other game where said mechanic makes sense.
Europa Universalis has random battles because it's a strategy game about mass management of multiple resources in a highly abstracted game world, it works in THIS formula because the game is not an RPG, just like having something like dice rolls for hittting things would not work in something like Bayonetta despite being necessary in RPGs.
You're retarded and gay.

>>720642242
Rebirth jumped the shark when Tifa gets swallowed by a Weapon for no reason just to get taken on a Magical Mystery Tour of the planet's epic race war with the dementors, where it's a clear allegory for white blood cells fighting off an infection to further the notion that the Planet is a living organism which I'm sure halfwits think is the deepest shit even though it's just fuckin' stupid.

>>720642931
Jimbo, it's time to stop posting your tired falseflags.

>>720642762
That and the removal of dual artes are the only things I dislike about Hearts R, for everything else I prefer it to the original.

>>720642981
I repeat, genre is just a name, how you describe the game. If you add good game design to a game of another genre, it doesn't make the good game design bad, it simply changes the game and thus the genre. Of course you have to keep your game coherent mechanically; but there's nothing incoherent about JRPGs with random battles. Like there is nothing incoherent about EU having random battles.

Besides, even if you were to add weapon items to Gran Turismo, that wouldn't necessarily make the game bad; plenty realistic racing games exist with that concept that were successful. Just because good game design doesn't fit in your game doesn't mean that game design is inherently bad.

>>720642931
>>720643220

>>720639291
The player pisses and moans because the random battles are annoying and not fun. You want to get away from them and avoid them because
1. they're thoughtless, you're just mashing A
2. they're boring and repetitive by their nature
3. they don't yield anything valuable, because with random encounters you always have infinite XP available
4. you might actually end up OVERleveled if you get into too many random fights, which fucks up the good parts of the game too

You know how you fix this? Limited fights. Just don't have infinite available enemies. If you make enemies a non-renewable resource all of a sudden players will want to hunt down enemies for their precious XP instead of sighing and getting bored when a random battle pops up.

>>720638085 (OP)
I like them. I love the battle music in all the FF games and never get tired of hearing them. I also like it when the enemy is on the screen where you can see them as long as it doesn't make the map look weird like in that new DQ 7 remake.

>>720642808
Remake is Nomura doing the best he could with Unreal and other limitations and he came through with something great and although the visuals have a sort of soulless UE feel to them at a glance the dialogue and characters and adventure itself inject life into it. The team did the best they could with what they had to work with while most other devs went to the shitter.
As for random encounters, enemies on map has always been a downgrade except KH wnd maybe from XV on, because you are either forced to fight or can avoid them so it cheapens the feel of the game.

Why does that faggot Timothy Cain use the term "random encounters" in his videos Fallout games don't have random encounters couldn't the retarded westoids have picked some other way to explain what they mean

>>720642931
>>720643220
>>720643356
5 years of this

>>720643378
Oh yeah I'd love to see you mash through an SMT game or anything that isn't Final Fantasy you fucking retarded normie, piss off and play real JRPGs you faggots always say this shit and it makes 0 sense

>>720642981
>Europa Universalis has random battles because it's a strategy game about mass management of multiple resources in a highly abstracted game world
Final Fantasy VII has random battles because it's a JRPG about management of multiple resources (HP, MP, AP, equipment etc.) in a highly abstracted game world.

>>720643550
Why would I be jealous of a nation that has barely shit out a single good game and is still relying on stuff from the 90s and maybe early 2000s? They're extremely behind, if I pointed out a little retard named Jimmy am I jealous? No, I'm just pointing out a fact.

>>720643424
Fallout 1 and 2 have random encounters when you travel the map. The later Fallouts have enemies reappearing and radiant quests

>>720643337
>I repeat, genre is just a name
Then you confirm you're a retarded mouthbreather since you're saying that entire scientific field like Taxonomy are made up bullshit.
No point in arguing further with a literal idiot.
>>720643598
There no resource management in FFVII and the degree of abstraction is completely different from something like EU.

>>720643540
I played strange journey and the random fights are indeed just spamming the same few commands over and over. SMT V encounter system is way better which is why they permanently changed the series in that direction.
Random encounters are the normalfag mechanic anyway, they encourage grinding which trivializes every game. Literally easy mode. Every game with random encounters is solved by walking back and forth in one spot for a while. Pokemon tier difficulty.

>>720643654
Vanilla WoW was the last good game that came out of USA and that was 20 years ago. But as a result, it killed the whole MMORPG genre.

Maybe Dragon Age: Origins or Mass Effect 2.

>>720643745
>There no resource management in FFVII and the degree of abstraction is completely different from something like EU.

There is. It is possible player runs out mana and has no way to replenish and HP recovery items are not inifinite either. I agree average IQ and above player won't be running to that problem but your average american can and will run into that problem.

>>720643810
Why are you talking shouldn't you be getting out of the first room of Wizardry IV?

>>720643437
He's right. That scene needs to be cut.

>>720643719
F2 has more retarded cutscene encounters than actual combat encounters. The one where you have to wait while some power suit dudes finish someone off is annoying.

>>720643745
Taxonomy is not made up. But if you turn a fish into a cat, it doesn't matter in the context of game design, because good qualities are still good qualities whether we call the thing a fish or a cat. That's why genre doesn't matter. The swimming quality of a fish is still good quality even if you were to add it to a different animal. It doesn't mean it's bad, just because you change the animal.

FFVII definitely has resource management (HP, money, mana, equipment, materias, materias etc.) and even if it didn't have, it would have no relevance whatsoever. That's like saying "random battles in Europa Universalis is good because Europa Universalis has the word 'Europa' in its name." It has no relevance whatsoever.

>>720643881
>It is possible player runs out mana and has no way to replenish and HP recovery items are not inifinite either.
Potions and ethers are literally infinite by design since money is infinite and a non issue, you don't need to use MP for anything that isn't maybe heals either because magic is dogshit and the game is all about spamming attack and limit breaks, with maybe some niche Mime materia abuse for two optional bosses if you want to just end your boredom quickly.
Just because some people and americans in particulars are stupid doesn't mean the bar should be lowered.

>>720644172
The devs have confirmed it stays. 2 women fighting it out on top of gigantic cannon barrel is not something you cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEghvO8aogQ

>>720643881
Not to mention that EU (especially EU4) is laughably easy as well. No one average IQ would struggle with it either.

>>720644339
I know. It still doesn't take away the fact "some" "players" might run out of resources in dungeon.
t. when I was 12 I had to return from Mt. Nibel back to Nibelheim to stock up on Tents for Materia Keeper boss fight

>>720644347
That's sad news for the guy who originally said that he wanted it cut and everyone who agreed with him.

>>720644792
He will be more careful with his copypastas from now on

>>720644315
Videogame genres are literally the same thing as taxonomy, unfortunately given how the medium is still at the mercy of anti intellectual, mentally stunted manchildren like you we can't have proper discussion about it, but it's the same exact thing, same goes for books, music or movies.
>because good qualities are still good qualities whether we call the thing a fish or a cat.
Something is "good" purely because of specific use cases relative to specific scenarios, you imbecile, there is no universal "good".
A cat having fur is good because as a warm blooded mammal it needs it, have you ever seen a fish with fur? No because they have no use for it unlike a cat, much like how a cat has no need for otoliths because it doesn't fucking live underwater like a fish, if anything it would cause them issues much like fur would cause issues on a fish, because again, what is "good" depends on context and in a game's case, its genre.

Again, you're are stupid, boorish and should learn some humility.

>>720645154
Fingers crossed today is the day someone finally gives a shit, juju

>>720645159
Replacing your absent father with Jordan Peterson doesn't make you an intellectual, do you realize that? You only produce nonsensical word salad like him.

But yes, good game design is good game design. If you can make random battles good in one context, that's a direct proof that random battles are not inherently bad game design, contrary to what you claim. Nothing you have said suggests random battles would be bad game design, you have only proven you've never studied logic.

>>720645159
You can't say "fur is inherently bad animal design" just because a fish doesn't need fur, you absolute idiot.

>>720645464
>>720645464
You should learn to understand the meaning of reaction images and stop projecting your feeble mind on others.
>that's a direct proof that random battles are not inherently bad game design, contrary to what you claim
Where did I ever say that random battles are inherently bad you cocksucking idiot? I literally said they're okay in EU because IN THERE they make sense and work well, just like I made many other examples of mechanics that make sense in some games but not others.
Fucking illiterate schizo, take your meds and fuck off.

>>720645713
When my posts aren't bothering anyone else I can always count on you to be the one guy who gets mad at them.

>>720638085 (OP)
Problem is that if you make random encounters hard, the game will be impossible because you will have like 40 of them between health and MP refills, but if you make them easy, the game will just be a boring slog.
It's a lose lose situation.

>>720645926
You are just mad you got caught. Let it all out.

>>720645534
Fur is inherently bad animal design because it just exists to appeal to horny furries and animals without fur stand a much lower chance of being raped by human men.

>>720645992
lmao sure man, I'm going to prison now, it's over.
But really, it sucks to be ignored, so I'm always glad when you show up to have a little melty while everyone else doesn't engage at all. I wonder what makes you different from them.

>>720638085 (OP)
Sure you can. Random battles are not an inherently flawed system. The issue is a vast majority of games which feature random battles did absolutely nothing to refine the system so you're stuck with something that functions exactly the same way as it did over 40 years ago.

>>720645768
Why wouldn't random battles work well in JRPGs? Because you don't like it? Plenty people here saying it works just fine.

Speaking of making sense, don't you think it makes more sense when battles are enforced on the player? You know, since they are attacked by monsters? There's this thing called "game over" in video games, don't you think it'd make sense if the player was pressured by the game a little bit? So he couldn't just pick and choose when to put himself at risk? You really think it makes perfect sense when the player gets to dictate when the monsters fight him? Isn't the video game supposed to be the one that challenges the player, not the other way around? It's a JRPG, after all, not a sneaking game. You yourself wanted to speak about JRPGs, so don't start saying "I want JRPGs to be stealth games where you don't engage in combat or other gameplay mechanics."

Logic!

>>720643834
Dragon Age is a w*stoid game?
LAMN

>>720638085 (OP)
The problem is boring fluff battles that exist just to give you free exp, not random battles.

>>720638085 (OP)
I can actually, symbol encounters are annoying in narrow dungeons, enemies run into you and block the passage all the time.
FFI~X would be way more annoying with symbol encounters.

>>720646113
Tell me more. What drove you into your current state that you have spent 5 years shitposting about FF7 Remake?

>>720647825
I'll give you all the details you want if you promise to draw more fanart of me :)

>>720647938
Sure. Be honest and be thorough. If I can sense your sincerity, I'll draw you something.

>>720648048
Thank you! I'm glad to have a fan. Everyone other than you just ignores me. Why do you suppose that is? What makes you different from everyone else?

>>720640671
>play game
>enemies get in your way
>IT RUINS MY EXPERIENCE

>>720638712
There is nothing wrong with random encounters, they're intended to test resource management. It's just that jarpigs (and RPGs in general) have gotten much easier and now focus on muh story, and Japs can't into balance (shit's either braindead easy mash 'ATTACK' or it's UBER GIGA NIGGA 5000 GOING SUPER SAYAIN AND YOU WERE MEANT TO LOSE THE FIGHT UGUUU) so faggots expect some light gameplay where you push a button sometimes between 30 minute visual novel style cutscenes.

>>720648491
So, what drove you to spend so much time to daily shitpost about FF7 Remake for 5 years now and counting?

>>720648808
I haven't. Do you have any proof of this insane claim?

>>720648943
You admitted it yourself

>>720649108
What part of that post backs up your claim?
It's true that I don't hate these games though.

>>720649228
So back to squirming, I see.

>>720649287
What are you talking about? You say I've shitposted against these games for 5 years, and I haven't. I'd like to see proof of your claim and it doesn't look like you have any.

>>720638085 (OP)
yes i can, your definition of "good" is meaningless to me
you are retards, developers must design their games in order to wrangle retards, it's pretty straight forward
random battles force aforementioned retards to, generally, end up at a rough intended level at various points. they also force them to actually play the game, that pincer attack from frogs is gonna fuck you up and you're gonna have to pay attention and learn how to deal with a variety of issues instead of having some tutorial tucked away in a system menu to read or a 5 minute popup guide tutorial on it.
i have zero problem with random encounters, the only problem is their frequency. if you get an encounter every 10 steps, you balanced poorly. if you get an encounter once per minute of field movement, you're perfectly fine.

>>720639514
>What's the issue with giving the player agency to choose when they want and don't want to battle?
The issue is you're fucking stupid. You give them the option to not battle, they won't, then they'll reach a point where they have to fight and scream and cry that the game is shit because they can't beat it because they didn't bother to actually fight, learn the systems or get stronger. And then they drop the game.
What do you not understand about 90% of any players cannot be trusted to make any decision and must be wrangled because they're 90iq?

>>720639609
It really makes no difference, because if you put enemies on the map you MUST then design it so that a substantial number of those enemies are exceptionally hard to avoid, and will charge you in different ways depending on the monster type, at different speeds, angles, patterns, you must spend time placing them down and designing their patrol routes, you must design scenarios where multiple enemies appear and charge at once.
This is all good, it's effort and work but it's good. But the people bitching about random encounters will STILL BITCH when they have to fight these just the same anyway. You give anyone grandia that raged about random encounters and they will still rage at jellyfish and ants and all sorts of encounters that catch them.
You simply cannot please these people, they don't want to play the game to begin with

>>720649391
You admitted in the same thread where >>720649108 was posted that you started your routine in 2020 when your copypasta spam first surged. Since it's clear you can't help but squirm, we'll call it for the day and we continue when you are ready to be honest and sincere again.

>>720638085 (OP)
It's attrition design. You don't know how many battles you will have to fight between save points (and this was before save points became free full party restore points) or which enemies you will encounter, which is why you need restorative items and healing abilities that burn through your money and mana. Lots of games that follow this template are just so easy that the player doesn't even notice how the system works.

>>720640298
this should absolutely happen retard
your "dodging" skills are useless in a scenario you cannot run or avoid, you should get shitcanned
it is not "grinding" to have to fight anything at all, if you want to do your level 1 no encounter challenge run go ahead but expect to get shitcanned

>>720649915
You could just post that proof from that thread here right now if it existed, but I guess it doesn't. Maybe next time you'll have proof of your baseless claim. Anyway, thanks for being my one fan who keeps track of all my posting and even draws me fanart. Say hi to your wife for me. :)

>>720649832
>90% of any players cannot be trusted to make any decision and must be wrangled because they're 90iq?
And giving them random battles is a good idea because in your head that railroads them more and gives them less freedom? Get your own idea straight in your retarded mind before posting, please.

>>720643810
>SMT V encounter system is way better
smt v encounter system is the worst in any smt game, because nothing can catch you 99% of the time and its easily avoided. what a dogshit example lmao
smt v has a "dungeon" where throughout the course of that "dungeon" you have to fight 0 enemies, there are no substantial monster den ambushes set up, there are no monsters that are super annoying to dodge, you just walk around the empty fucking places doing the puzzle, picking up items, then fight the boss. what a complete fucking waste of time, because you have to fight nothing it is not a dungeon at all it might as well be a hub town in any game
and it is dogshit precisely becuase they simply removed random encounters, replaced them with visible map enemies, but then did ZERO of the extra work required to make that system good. this is the problem and this is always the problem, which is why this system worked great in plenty of 90s and 2000s rpgs but no longer really works

>>720638085 (OP)
Random Encounters keep things from getting stale. In JRPGs without them, once you get strong enough, there's no point in fighting anymore, so you avoid combat altogether, and that makes for a boring time.

>>720638085 (OP)
they don't bother me at all, Octopath 2 still had them and the game was great. how the actual combat plays out is way more important

>>720650315
uhh, yes retard, exactly. random battles force the players to have a certain amount of money, a certain amount of items, be at a certain level, at various stages of the game so that you don't have to kneecap yourself making your bosses dogshit fights beatable by anyone in any scenario because "well we cant predict what strength they'll be at"
they must be forced and wrangled to be where you want them to be, and you cannot just go "lol ok here's +20 levels for walking forward and doing nothing" because that ruins the game experience for everyone not retarded
if you do not want to fight encounters, jrpgs are not for you. it is that simple, it is the core gameplay that you explore and fight things.
you have to create the scenario of controlling the retard players so they don't rage quit your game, because they will do exactly that the minute they get more than a little upset at anything.
phantasy star 4 random encounters would demolish any of you retards, not only was the encounter rate too high, but the random encounters were actually difficult and could kill you, and required resources to beat essentially every single one. resources which could not be restored without going to an inn or heal point, there were no ethers, there was no tech restore. if you used your x number of uses of that ability, it was gone.
aside from the rate being too high, this is fundamentally good design

>>720638085 (OP)
Random battles are gambling, making it addictive.

>>720646272
>Why wouldn't random battles work well in JRPGs?
Because random battles cannot be threatening by design without devolving into incontrollable RNG, which is not good design.
It's why the western industry moved on from the concept way before the east did and why random fights are now a deprecated concept in RPGs, they do not work well, they're extremely limiting and make it impossible to design a game with good combat.
All games with random encounters are piss easy as a result with the only real danger of gameover being the concept of RNG ambushes, which is a just an arbitrary loss that is wholly out of the player's control provided you don't give them means to avoid them like Ninjas/thieves in Wizardry in which case you go back to square 1 and still have boring fights with zero stakes.
>You really think it makes perfect sense when the player gets to dictate when the monsters fight him?
Yes? Why shouldn't it? Tons of games give you specific build options for that like giving characters the ability to move silently, use invisibility spells and so on, which is what good RPGs do, RPGs are about playing and building characters, characters that can play through the game in different ways including stealth, not going through a gauntlet of mediocre RNG fights to see the next anime cutscene.
Of course people like you who just want sunday cartoons in videogame form with some instead of actual roleplaying games would never understand this, but RPGs are about options and characters, and the most challenging ones are always those without random encounters.

>>720638085 (OP)
Random battles allowed you to experience encounters without them necessarily being set in definite locations.
Without those, we get hallways with designated "fight" areas, then a few good screenshots in-between.
I prefer having coherent settings.
You can also have monster "encounters" appear as overworld enemies who, when engaged, trigger a "random battle". This gets you the best of both worlds.

>>720641052
More like
>I think I'll walk to that door now
>random encounter
>5 steps
>random encounter
>5 steps
>random encounter
I don't even think jrpg combat is bad it's just the frequency of it can be obnoxious. Imagine if an action game locked the room you're in every 20 seconds and spawned 10 enemies you had to defeat to proceed.

>>720654001
>Imagine if an action game locked the room you're in every 20 seconds and spawned 10 enemies you had to defeat to proceed.
They called that a beat-em-up and yeah they mostly went extinct because they're obsolete, much like random encounters were made obsolete by visibly roaming enemies

>>720654142
they went mostly extinct because they were arcade games and arcades died retard
beat em ups are still one of the best genres to ever exist, and the amount of amazing games in that genre is staggeringly high
you people are just dumb. you complain about shmups too when they put enemies on the screen "wtf i didn't sign up to actually play a game and engage in the combat, i just want to see the boss/story why do i have to fly through a level fighting these enemies"

>>720638334
Some games feature items/accessories to remove random battle in FF. In some ports/pixel remastered they added a toggle to turn off random encounter

>>720638085 (OP)
>Solves random battles
>Solves end game gamplay dissolving into multi-hit spam
>System is never utilized in any game ever again

>>720654630
All false but leave it to a final fantasy shitter to be a clueless mouthbreather

The opposite (no open world) sucks and has sucked for the last 20 years. Whatever criticism you have on open maps in games is far outweighed by the results of the 20+ year experiment of not including them in JRPGs. But it's pretty common for a soulless retarded golem like OP to have the wrong opinion and want to die on that hill.

>>720638712
Literally nothing. OP is retarded.

>>720642981
>Europa Universalis has random battles
It doesn't.
The closest you'll get is native aggression, and that's neither random nor in the spirit of a random battle.

>>720641824
>When a nation declares war on you in Europa Universalis, that's a random battle.
It's not random at all, there are specific factors that that make the AI decide it's worth it to declare war on you. If you play a lot you get a perfect feel for this and if you're succeeding in the game, you're rich and strong, so the AI almost never decs on you
t./gsg/ pro

>>720641445
Truly wild to me how Rebirth all played out.

>>720656045
Wrong. The system must be at least partly random, because otherwise the nation would always declare war with the same variables and the player could always predict and be prepared for any war.

Even if it wasn't random but completely determined, it wouldn't matter, because to the player it still appears as if it was random. The point is that the battle occurs against the player's will, that's what matters.

>>720638085 (OP)
And you can't explain why it's bad design. >>720638712
Nothing.

you'll miss them when it's gone, it's just a ff thing

>>720656341
Sometimes I think Dom is here, screaming about turn based and stock value. How it helps rebirth sales I dont know but he's trying.

>>720656416
>Wrong. The system must be at least partly random, because otherwise the nation would always declare war with the same variables and the player could always predict and be prepared for any war.
It does and you can, but it takes into account more variables than players can actually control or account for without cheating.
>Even if it wasn't random but completely determined, it wouldn't matter, because to the player it still appears as if it was random.
Being too retarded to understand why you have Janissaries in your capital doesn't make the Ottoman Invasion a random encounter.
>The point is that the battle occurs against the player's will, that's what matters.
Okay, then when I steal my brother's car, drop it off in a ditch, and get my shit stomped for it, that's a random encounter.

>>720638085 (OP)
It's fun. Have a sense of surprise, making exploration risky, make you search for that precious grind.

>>720638085 (OP)
>random encounters: :|
>symbol encounters that respawn: :)
>finite symbol encounters that never respawn: :D

>>720638712
>>720638085 (OP)
They are very dangerous.

>>720638712
If it's there for no reason. For example the encounters do not consume your resources, your status aliments gets healed after battle, or healing is free after battle, then there's no fucking reason to have random battles to waste your time. If they actually consume your resources and make it so you have to prepare to reach your destination, then random battles actually are important part of the game balance.

>>720638085 (OP)
I see an awful lot of people who claim to like RPGs complain when confronted by any abstraction statistic-based risk they have to manage, both of which are necessities to RPG design. Symbol encounters are more “realistic” or whatever, but the more control you as a player have over what happens in a game using your own skill, the less of an RPG it is. The idea of random encounters is that you never actually know when you’ll be forced into combat and therefore need to ration supplies accordingly.

None of this is to say that there aren’t games with annoyingly high encounter rates, though. You should have some sort of resource made available to manipulate that rate in every game.

>>720659292
>Symbol encounters are more “realistic” or whatever, but the more control you as a player have over what happens in a game using your own skill, the less of an RPG it is.
Even if you don't want to go full RL you can make games with enemy symbols and turn based movement but nobody outside of hardcore RPG players likes them, enemy symbols can also offer interesting synergies with non combat related skills that random encounters cannot have.
Regardless, by the same token then puzzles should also not exist since it's not the characters that solve them but the players, nevermind atrocities like QTE or timing based combat, enemy symbols are the least of your problems especially when games that use random encounters all have inevitably shallow combat.

>>720657005
As you can read from this thread, the reason why some plebs don't like random battles is that sudden battles interrupt their plans. That's how it works in EU as well, even when it's fair for you to argue it's not technically random. It's not technically "random" for you to end up in a fight in a JRPG either, when you knowingly enter an area with encounters on. So you can predict there is going to be a fight, but not necessarily. You may be able to run across certain maps without encounters.

>>720660130
Stop trying to force the comparison already. It's needlessly painful.

>>720660130
People don't like random fights because they're mindless, annoying and overall primitive design that doesn't allow much depth, if any.
There's a reason why games with random battles are quick to feature autobattle features, because the combat is a waste of time.

>>720660308
Begging me stop is not an argument. You lost. If you can't decide when the battle occurs, the case is the same in relevant parts. In both games wars happen against your will, suddenly, and interrupt your plans.

>>720638085 (OP)
Random battles are there to wear down your resources, such as HP, MP, and items. You simply don't understand the point of JRPGs and you should kill yourself if you can't stay in whatever gachanigger /vg/ thread you crawled out of.

>>720660494
>JRPGs are shallow games of managing infinite fuel between checkpoints
You don't like or play JRPGs outside of some shitty moviegames and entry level fatlus shit

>>720660371
How is it mindless for the game to challenge you when you don't want it? I'd say the game is mindless when the game lets you be mindless. When the game forces you to tackle challenges, it's keeping you mentally busy, not mentally passive.

And finding things annoying is a you-issue. The combat remains the same regardless if it's initiated randomly or by player's choice.

>>720660685
>infinite fuel
How to tell you've only ever played Final Fantasy or Persona.

>>720660831
>How is it mindless for the game to challenge you when you don't want it?
Because the game isn't challenging me to begin with, it's forcing me to go through some shallow busywork that exists purely because of cargo cult mentality.
I'm not kept mentally busy by being forced to fight some fodder that goes down to attack>heal when HP is low over and over again, I'm being told to play better games.
>>720660915
I played a lot more JRPGs than you ever will and the amount of them where resources are actually, truly finite is ridiculously small.
The only semi-recent one that comes to mind is Natural Doctrine and that's also more of an SRPG/puzzle hybrid.

>>720654630
>System is never utilized in any game ever again
ENTER: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1533590/Three_Fairies_Hoppin_Flappin_Great_Journey/

>>720638085 (OP)
Your pic literally justifies them. That over world would look shit littered with models. The point of random battles is precisely to maintain that layer of abstraction between the exploration & combat.

>>720661113
There's not a single video game in the entire history of video games where ordinary battles wouldn't be shallow busywork, though. I don't think video games are for you if you can't accept that, especially not RPGs.

>>720660468
>If you can't decide when the battle occurs, the case is the same in relevant parts. In both games wars happen against your will, suddenly, and interrupt your plans.
You CAN decide. You just don't like the fact that the AI also has the option to capitalize on your weakness.
You've chosen the dumbest hill imaginable to die on.

>>720661196
>touhou slop
into the trash it goes.

>>720661113
>>720660685
Even Pokemon has fucking finite resources. You simply don't play video games. You're here for an interactive movie and anything that inconveniences you is unacceptable. Again, stay in your gachanigger /vg/ thread or put a bullet in your head. Your opinions are worthless.

>>720661489
No you can't. Start a Twitch stream on EU4 right now and predict every single war what will be declared on you and let's see if you can. I say you can't, because nobody can, the actual AI war declaration calculus is hard-coded.

>>720661113
>modern jrpgs turned into moviegames therefore they should just be movies
Luckily they made a game for you, it's called Final Fantasy XVI.

>>720661367
>There's not a single video game in the entire history of video games where ordinary battles wouldn't be shallow busywork
I think you just need to grow up and actually play videogames and not dogshit like Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Grandia or whatever shit you played as a kid and glorify as the end of all.
Supposedly you really like JRPG but you refuse to play anything that by your admission isn't a soul rendingly boring series of shallow busywork.
>>720661540
Pokemon DOES NOT have finite resources in any way or shape.
Not even Red and Blue did since you can rematch the Elite 4 for infinite money, and since Gen 3 all non evil team pokemon trainers refresh after a while so again, infinite money is a thing.

>>720638334
>The only JRPG where you can consistenly turn off random encounters when you want to explore
clearly you haven't played many

>>720661609
>Start a Twitch stream on EU4 right now and predict every single war what will be declared on you and let's see if you can. I say you can't, because nobody can
See? This is what I mean. You're genuinely retarded.
If I start a game as Mamluks, dunk on Ottos day 1, and ally a few medium powers without growing AE, no one's declaring a war against me.
Exceptions apply if you do something like rush for the New World or take a random Chinese province, but if you know how to use the game's map modes and province view, you can tell when a major has their eyes on your stuff.
Random battles are just random. There's no weighing of factors like alliances strength and army composition to determine whether or not you get jumped. It just happens.

>>720661496
Touhou has been taking game concepts and refining them into peak autism for decades. Apologies you didn't get through the filter.

>>720654630
Dragon Age 1. Then they decided to go full retard with that series

>>720661865
No thanks, I don't play action moviegames either, the only JRPG series I play from Square is SaGa.

>>720661880
Name five games where ordinary battles would provide a challenge. They don't exist, that's why you can't name them. Ordinary battles are shallow busywork regardless of game or genre. Video games are not rocket science, that's the point.

>>720638085 (OP)
I played FF7 on the Duckstation with random encounters turned off, it was a pleasant experience

one of the worst design problems with field initiated battles is players can almost always avoid combat since the AI is dogshit, which removes any survival aspect and tension from exploration. i'd actually take a well balanced, hard series of checkpoints where you just about make it through areas to the modern field battle slop where you run past everything and maybe grind a bit if the boss hurts.

>>720662147
How did you level up characters, materia and limit breaks?

>>720638085 (OP)
The worst game with enemies in the overworld is worse than the worst game with random encounters. But the best game with overworld enemies is better than the best game with random encounters.

>>720661880
>Pokemon DOES NOT have finite resources in any way or shape.
>Not even Red and Blue did since you can rematch the Elite 4 for infinite money
You're saying you don't have finite resources for getting through Rock Tunnel because you can farm money after you beat the game?

>>720662251
I think I just grinded
I rather just mindlessly grind for a few minutes than be interrupted every couple of seconds while exploring

>>720661951
Waiting for that Twitch stream. I know you can avoid unwanted wars if you succeed in snowballing right away and keep the variable values high enough, but you can just use a "prevent encounters" item in most JRPGs as well. So you can control those encounters in both games, doesn't mean anything. In ordinary gameplay, they still interrupt your plans and you can't predict them with certainty without cheating, just like you said.

>>720662003
If the games were actually good, then they would use original characters and art instead of piggybacking on popular, pre-existing characters. If these Touhou fangames were original works, then no one would give a fuck about them because none of them are good enough to stand on their own two legs.

>>720662662
- And that's my essay on why gamefreak is lazy and continues to abuse the Pokemon franchise for free money.

>>720662089
Nice stealth rec bro, but I already mentioned Natural Doctrine, you want more recent go play SaGa Emerald Beyond, we both know you won't though.
>>720662340
If you can't get through the Rock Tunnel you're either 5 years old or profoundly mentally challenged, which is it?

>>720662782
>If you can't get through the Rock Tunnel you're either 5 years old or profoundly mentally challenged, which is it?
Nice goalpost move, but Pokemon is a game made for 5 year olds. I'm glad you stopped pretending it doesn't have finite resources though. Now you can fuck off back to the ZZZ general.

>>720662089
There are more than 5 wizardry and etrian odyssey games

>>720662543
>So you can control those encounters in both games, doesn't mean anything.
You're using items that temporarily disable encounters, which is fundamentally different from convincing the "encounter" not to attack you because doing so would be suicidal.

>>720662782
I've played SaGa games and they definitely have trash mobs like any other game. I haven't played Natural Doctrine, but since I know one of your examples is totally wrong, I have no reason to believe your other example would be true either. NS is a PS3/4 game anyway so I'll assume you're some console zoomer.

>>720662773
>no argument
>brings up irrelevant bullshit out of nowhere instead
Concede with some shred of class next time.

>>720662993
I'm sorry you didn't get the joke. You could ask chatgpt to explain it to you.

>>720640970
and 7 has encounter materia that doesn't fucking work

>>720662950
>fundamentally different
No. If EU4 is truly fully deterministic (zero RNG; we don't know that though afaik, the calculus is still hidden to this day), then it's just a matter of setting values. In JRPG, I simply select "Rebel" to get the value I want, meanwhile in EU4, I simply select "increase opinion" or whatever it was called.

>>720663083
>m-m-m-my (losing) argument wasn't an argument, i was just... uh... JOKING! YEAH!!! take THAT!

>>720662089
Any game involving time management.
The encounters aren't quite "random", but this is a large factor in the Atelier franchise's success.

>>720662871
>It doesn't have infinite resources if I'm 5 years old
>>720662972
Yeah, old SaGa do have some trash mobs, which is why I mentioned Emerald Beyond which has a completely new battle system that is also an elaboration of what Scarlet Grace did before and they play unlike any of the previous games.
As I thought, you're just here to posture about shit you don't play and never will because you're a moron who's here to get some sort of self perceived mental therapy rather than having discussions about videogames.
I'm also pushing 40 so you don't get to play the zoomer card with me you fucking imbecile, stick to your SNES trash.

>>720638085 (OP)
I thought people loved RNG?

>>720663245
Based but only true for good games like Dragon Filter.

>>720663164
You don't even know if there's actual RNG involved in the decision here.
FFS, I'm not feeding this anymore.

>>720639937
that'd be cool if that ever happened to anyone with more than a room temp iq. You walk around at 1 hp? you're too stupid to have potions or some shit? ur just as bad as the zoomzooms

>>720663245
And those are almost always extremely unpopular compared to other games in the series with less strict/no time limits.

>>720663270
They only like "safe RNG" like BallSlopTrough, Slop The Spire, Darkest Troughgeon, and other E-Celeb approved time wasting rogue garbage.

>>720663270
Only when it yields positive results. Everyone remembers when they missed 95% hit chance because it "shouldn't happen"

>>720663428
Good games often aren't the most popular.
Tragic, but that's life.

>>720663342
Because it doesn't matter for the sake of the argument. It can be either RNG or not, the argument itself remains valid all the same. There's no reason to suppose there wouldn't be any RNG involved, when battles itself are heavily dice-based too. Just pip fights.

Don't argue with me without knowing how arguments work and visit university first, cheers.

>>720663247
>old SaGA do have some trash mobs
Nope, they are entirely filled with them. Not just some. I just don't think you're very smart if you struggle with ordinary battles in video games. They are just grind.

I have to emulate old FF because of this

>>720638085 (OP)
made sense on snes and psx, world map was simple and more of interpretation of the real world (like google maps or maps in general) than actual place you get to explore so when you enter into battle you get to see 3d representation of how that point on map would actually look rendered in 3d. we got that in rebirth but still prefer how OG did it, in my mind OG is vastly bigger world.

>>720641490
>lol i just cheat lol
>lmao im a cheater
>lol
>cheating is cool
>wtf what do u mean i cant use cheat engine in real life? wtf what do u mean im a skill-less loser??? wtf *kill self*

>>720663791
The GB games are largely like that, but those are handheld games from the late 80's so it's hard to criticize them.
Romancing onwards they get enemy symbols and BR so they start fixing the issue and also refine battle design a lot, they also avoid the pitfall of random encounters so even if there are some trash encounters they're there for a reason and are not the norm like in other games.
By the time you get to the PS2 eras the game work on a very different paradigm with both Unlimited and Minstrel Song enforcing specific rules like LP management or a time limit that makes you want to consider what you fight and how you fight so that trash encounters, while they're a possibility, are to be avoided and the game is mechanically built to do so.
SSG onwards there's just no trash encounters anymore nor do you have enemy symbols, everything works through scripted events and the battle system is designed to just not have anything that can be classified as a trash encounter.
Again, you're not informed enough to have an opinion worth considering or respecting.

That’s why all remasters of old JRPGs added in auto/x2 speed to their games. It’s the only way to make them playable. Then at that point you might as well be playing a visual novel even if it is a good game.

>>720663247
>It doesn't have infinite resources if I'm 5 years old
No it just doesn't have infinite resources, period. Which is why getting spammed with Zubats and trainers while you're trying to get through is a problem.

>>720664236
None of that is difficult. You are the imbecile here who thinks video games are hard. They are not for me and I treat them as entertainment. So don't shit-talk me for it.

Tactical RPGs or strategy games can have meaningful battles. But they don't really have "ordinary battle encounters," they have maps, each potentially designed with care. So search there but don't expect RPGs to become like that.

>>720664327
They're even letting people skip the shit combat in the 7R games now. Jrpg fans should stick to vns and YouTube, they clearly dont care about playing videogames

>>720664896
If you're 5 years old, maybe.
>>720664993
>You are the imbecile here who thinks video games are hard.
I'm not the imbecile who's arguing about random battles being supposedly good for enforcing some challenge while talking about games I never played nor I intend playing.
You're nowhere as intelligent as you think you are, nevermind good or knowledgeable with videogames.
SRPGs are also largely mindless, they just have more pointless busywork and trash fights, so you're even more delusional than you've previously shown.

>>720664993
I enjoy Disgaea's randomized Item Worlds more than the story battles with designed maps for each battle

>>720638085 (OP)
You cant defend them in normal jrpgs sure. But a dungeon crawler without random encounters is like a platformer without jumping, it doesnt work

>>720665621
Most classic tile based dungeon crawlers from the 90's onwards that don't have roaming enemies use tile based fixed encounters with minimal actual random encounters.

>>720665621
Atlus were smart enough to add gauges to their DRPGs to indicate how soon to expect an encounter. This feature would be good in every DRPG ever made if it was retrofitted to them.

>>720662251
bosses, you dont need to be high level to beat this game

>>720643881
>not so subtle burger envy post
rent free

>>720665283
I'm arguing it's better for the game to enforce battles rather than the game not enforce battles. You don't have to get a game over for the game to feel meaningful, it's enough if the game depletes your resources and keeps pushing you.

You already exposed yourself by calling Emerald Beyond difficult, which it is not, so doesn't matter. I suggest Netflix for you.

>>720665345
I've only played Disgaea 5 and I found it too easy. And the reason for that was balance, because in that game it's very easy to overlevel. I still liked the game though.

>>720638085 (OP)
The problem with random encounters is the lack of choice on the player's part, it completely removes your own agency. Random encounters is an archaic design system that might've been necessary on weaker hardware from the 80s when Wizardry was made but in typical Jap fashion they were very slow to adapt to technological progress even though Earthbound from 1994 already did away with all that and featured roaming enemies in levels instead.

The next best thing Earthbound did was make trash mobs actually run away from you if you were too high level for them which other games with random encounters never do either at least not the ones I've played. Using an item like a spray to temporarily disable random encounters is a bandaid solution by comparison since the only way for you to avoid trash mobs is to entirely avoid combat altogether but you might still need the EXP from stronger enemies. Maybe some games with random encounters fixed that issue though but to me at least it feels a lot better to have a clear view of your immediate surroundings and which enemies inhabit them so you can better choose when and where to engage. It's all about player choice which is something JRPGs already lack enough of.

>>720665983
>I'm arguing it's better for the game to enforce battles rather than the game not enforce battles
No, you're arguing that forcing people to waste time with pointless busywork is a good thing, there's nothing interesting in "resource management" that consists in topping off your 99 or whatever fuel items while lazily mashing attack on dozens of boring fights that only exist to burn through those item stacks, none of it is interesting, good or intrinsic to roleplaying games.
>>You already exposed yourself by calling Emerald Beyond difficult, which it is no
How would you know since you never played it? You love to tell people to watch netflix but curiously enough you recoil whenever people talk about actually difficult games that do enforce resource management without having either random encounter or even items.
Feel free to post your Beyond One World clear since you played SEB so much by the way, and do explain what makes it so easy, I'm really curious.

>>720638085 (OP)
random battles are goofy ahh shi, i mean you're walking around then boom some unc ahh diddy lookin ahh monster wants to fight or sum, where did he come from? that shi aint it unc

>>720661196
lemme guess, its not translated?

>>720666236
>Earthbound did was
Except that if Earthbound wants you to battle some random trash mob on the map, you're going to fight it whether you like it or not, no matter how hard you try to avoid it unless you cheat with Skip Sandwich speed on Y or something. It's still just as bad and frequent as random encounters, but dishonest.

>>720638085 (OP)
Honestly I think the issue is more with the battles themselves having no purpose at all, so it just feels like an unavoidable obstacle wasting your time after a while and you start moving as fast as possible to minimize them. It's like a punishment for exploring or not moving a straight line.

Random battles aren't as big a problem in games where they give unique resources or there's like a narrative reason for it like an ongoing battle. Some kind of functional purpose to enemy encounters like interrogating them or capturing them usually goes a long way.

>>720666559
It's touhou garbage, so it not being translated is for the best.

>>720665740
If theyre avoidable then its a dogshit dungeon crawler

>>720666362
You keep complaining about pointless busywork in video games without realizing that video games are pointless busywork. Do you realize that? You don't get paid for them. Their only function is to entertain. You won't impress anyone by saying your game is more difficult than someone else's. Means fuck all.

And yes, I'm arguing for what I just said, not for what you just said.

>>720644339
hey now, emerald can and should be fought without mime cheeses and is the funnest fight in the entire game. u just have to stat max in the gelnika first which sucks but if u have meth it's awesome

>>720666713
Correct. The best example is probably Pokémon. Random battles are not only usually limited in area but also the primary means of gain.

>Play a modern JRPG with on field enemies.
>Run up and smack an enemy.
>Battle initiative bonus is so overpowered that it's basically an instant win and there's no actual battle.
>And you can easily get this initiative 100% of the time, every single non-scripted fight throughout the game.
>Party is also automatically healed to full for free afterwards on the off chance an enemy somehow managed to sneak a hit in.
yeah i'd rather have random encounters back, thanks. at least there's a small chance i could have a party wipe with that system.

>>720666713
In games with random encounters you are often supposed to find rare items from rare encounters.

In a game without random encounters, you basically just run in and out reseting spawn areas until you find rare encounters. I don't think that's better.

>>720666820
Generally those fixed encounted tiles are placed at various chokepoints on every floor like corridors, doors and whatever, most games do give you means to avoid them, but like all RPGs you shouldn't do it because if you don't fight you don't grow stronger and you can't beat the game at all.
The Wizardry Empire games for instance work like that, so does the Elminage series, and they're all pretty decent.
Elminage also tends to add various roaming encounters on top of it all which makes it pretty varied, the other thing it does is that random fights usually don't give you loot while fixed encounters always do, so again, you're constantly encouraged to fight but also given a limited stack of items to secure a safe escape route or a last push to the bottom floor if you want.
>>720667021
Videogames are for entertainment, and pointless busywork is not entertainment for me but it certainly is for you, you say you value challenge when all you want is mindless, safe repetition, then you lie through your teeth whenever you get your ass exposed and talk about games you didn't even know they exist, you're pathetic, maybe german as well considering how you love turning your brain into much through the equivalent of unpaid office work.
Either way you're a pathetic manchild and a huge liar.

>>720666638
Not really since Earthbound also had an auto win mechanic as a contingency when fighting trash mobs. You never even have to enter the combat mode that way.

A game without random elements is a math problem.
Visible encounter proponents are being dishonest, what they really want are NO battles. They don't give a fuck about the game, they just want the storyfaggotry.

Any way it's basically moot now. Companies are never going to make good rpgs again, it is all up to hobbyists like it has been the last 15 years. AI will make these plentiful a decade from now.

>>720662086
nobody cares about ur indie rpg maker slop

>>720667475
Every single video game is pointless busywork, whether you admit it or not. You press buttons while the company makes money. Once you have done something actually challenging in real life, you'll learn to put things into perspective. No video game requires advanced algebra. It's all bullshit. But it's fun.

Not for you though, because there's no fun in your life.

>>720667720
>You press buttons while the company makes money
Imagine saying this in the era of gamer e-celebs, lmao, just how mad are you that you got exposed as a filthy liar?
Imagine telling people that there's no fun in their lives by admitting your only metric in life is money, AND shitting on videogames, only on /v/ you can find this kind of mentally ill human refuse.

>>720638085 (OP)
What's wrong with the random battles in FF is not actually the battles but the rest of the game system. Random battles are actually thrilling in an RPG that is well designed (unlike every FF), like Pool of Radiance.

>>720654001
>Imagine if an action game locked the room you're in every 20 seconds and spawned 10 enemies you had to defeat to proceed
And jazz!
youtu.be/Bj_4Dr40_Zc

>>720668040
PoR random battles are a massive slog, I don't miss wading through hordes of trolls that take dozens of key presses to kill, goldbox combat is certainly immersive for its time but it's not fun in the slightest, let alone balanced.

>>720638218
Design that isn't bad.

>>720668008
I haven't lied about anything. Meanwhile you have, when you said SaGa games only have "some" easy random encounters. In reality they are filled with them. Meanwhile I've truthfully said which games I've played and which I haven't.

My metric isn't money. My metric is fun. Meanwhile your metric is "difficulty" which is a false metric because all video games are easy as fuck. And then you go on to insult people who don't struggle with video games like you do. Now go renew your Netflix subcription, you uneducated fatso.

>>720667614
Literally the only reason to ever play a Jarpig is for the story and characters and atmosphere though since the "gameplay" has always been mindnumbing at best

>>720668398
You have lied continuously, I mentioned Emerald Beyond specifically and then you tried to derail this to other SaGa games, failed to do so for reason you don't even understand because you didn't play them, then said Emerald Beyond was "easy" without actually substantiating your claims, because you never played it either.
You said random encounters are good because they somehow enforce some challenge which means you value difficulty, you got BTFO there too then you derailed this once again by making personal attacks on me and saying that all videogames are easy and a waste of time anyway and that I have no fun in my life because I'm playing something that makes money for somebody else.
The more you post the more you show how you're mentally unhinged.

>>720641052
>enter castle
>every step you encounter a random battle
>go back to town after mapping only 1/100th of it

>'random' encounters
>encounters are actually determined per area with an encounter table
what RPGs actually lets you encounter any enemy anywhere in the world?

>>720666559
It is translated. Very poorly.

The real problem is from the SNES era on most JRPG enemies became total fucking wimps that struggle to kill your squishy healer waifu even if you sit there and do nothing for 50 turns. Of course shit is going to get boring if THAT'S what you're fighting every 5 steps.

>>720638923
There's the original Breath of Fire, which sells an item that prevents encounters for 150 steps in the very first shop in game.

>>720652364
Yall don't get it. >Because random battles cannot be threatening by design
A single random encounter is not supposed to be threatening. It chips at your HP while you're meant to cross a tunnel in Pokemon, then you have to manage your resources as you cross the tunnel. That adds danger to your role-playing game playthrough, you have to manage as you go through a dangerous tunnel.
By comparison, "I dodge all the encounters gg" is weird design that removes all of this. I'm not getting into that.
>But what if you're in the endgame and get into an encounter in the starting area, etc.?
By that point you should have repel or the game could add an option that removes encounters only if your character's level is so high it doesn't matter. If a game doesn't have this, it might be a mistake, but the alternative proposed to remove encounters entirely removes this entire type of game so that is no good solution.

>>720638085 (OP)
>be me
>love turn based games as a kid
>never have any troubles with random encounters, unless the encounter rate is really high
>grow up
>still love turn based games
>still dont mind random encounters, unless the encounter rate is high
>Love ARPGs as wel
>Dont care if theres random encounters or not

>come to this thread
>its just another turn based vs action autism thread
>its just another thread of fags being pissy over two fine systems

>>720669049
It's good when the game doesn't allow the player to skip gameplay, yes, even when you absolutely hate it yourself. Never once did I call video games a waste of time. I precisely called them fun and entertaining. How is that a waste of time? Don't you think it's good to have fun with your time? Oh right, I forgot you don't like fun and keeping your virginity is your life goal, sorry about that.

I don't pretend video games are difficult, you do. Some games are more challenging than others, but I only want video games to be engaging. There's nothing about random encounters that would make the game uengaging when the game literally forces the player into battles. Meanwhile, like a true AD/HD zoomer, you don't like grind, you don't want the game to say 'no' to you, you don't want the original RPG experience. That's fine. But stop saying others are wrong simply because the genre is not for you. And stop lying in general. Somehow "fun" equates with "waste of time" in your mind and then you wonder why I say you have no fun. Get real.

>>720638085 (OP)
They're fun

>>720673254
Everything about og ff7 is shit
Everything about remake ff7 is kino

>>720670017
It's not just that, but that RPGs started to trend towards giving the player practically limitless reserves of healing, with tons of healing magic, free healing items all over the place, save points that fully heal everyone, etc. This makes it so that random encounters can't even meaningfully deplete any resources, and thus become just meaningless padding.

>>720667560
This stops mattering halfway into the game when you get instant wins against absolutely fucking nothing. Enjoy trudging through the mire in Deep Darkness at a quarter of the normal speed while eating every single encounter that you come across.

>>720668254
You can't define something by its contradiction.

Why are so many video game players fake RPG fans?

>>720666559
it literally has english in the preview screenshots
it was translated in-house by chinese devs so it reads like shit anyway lmao

>>720638712
Having to fight a battle every 5 steps ruins the immersion.

>>720662086
Grind more levels. There's barely any complexity involved in Etrian Odyssey games.

Storyfags don't want combat.

They want a diorama with some halls, some puzzles and a bunch of VN cutscenes between chapters.

But trying to pit there's some big conspiracy to jarpigs when their own fanbase wants is a story with some light combat to give some novelty between the story sections, is not understanding what's the appeal of the genre.

JAYARPIGGIES were never about hardcore arcade design, but just designs that evolved from D&D and wizardry and FF1 and DQ1 and VNs.

>>720673437
>Everything about og ff7 is shit
>Everything about remake ff7 is kino

>>720670776
>then you have to manage your resources as you cross the tunnel.
There's nothing interesting, hard, dangerous or complex about stocking up on potions and wading through tons of pointless encounters designed to make you burn through that stock (which you've been given plenty of resources to have anyway), you should play RPGs with actual resource management rather than this make pretend kiddy shit.
This place really is a shithole

>>720678485
>This place really is a shithole
I know, it's infested by you non-gamers who only play ubislop and trash anything else, that's not the point. It's a pain. You can't talk about any game that isn't ubislop, a more classic or you go "woa?! this is 2D?! WTF". really needed the reminder.
>There's nothing interesting, hard, dangerous or complex about stocking up on potions and wading through tons of pointless encounters designed to make you burn through that stock (which you've been given plenty of resources to have anyway
It's not my problem if you dislike the genre, nor am I'm saying it's impossibly hard, I'm explaining the appeal. You pay some attention to mons you can use, what are the best skills, because you can die if you don't, and if you can immerse (this is a RPG-role playing game, it needs some capacity of you to immerse a bit, that you're in a dangerous tunnel), the encounters will burn your mons, the potions could run out, you had to have stocked enough, etc. It's not much but it's not "wtf there's no design", "encounters cannot threaten you" that you moved your goalposts from like a tard.
I was also using Pokemon as an example, there are harder ones like EO and Strange Journey. This stuff is implied. holy fuck you're a moron.

>>720638085 (OP)
You know what? You are right. I think that there is no way you can ever really justify random encounters in JRPGs. You can prefer it, but to say a game is objectively improved by it is just plain wrong since we have seen what JRPG without them look like. Even the ones that force you to fight are better since you at least see the enemies coming and its not an abrupt stopping of what you are doing.

>>(Me)
You know what? You're right.

>>720680758
>there is no way you can ever really justify random encounters in JRPGs
it's a straightforward solution to the issue of implementing battles on the hardware of early console generations
if you want to apply that to modern games/hardware then it's simply a matter of preference

>>720658373
>mfw I thought the same
Absolutely based.