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Anonymous No.723762586 [Report] >>723764645 >>723764747 >>723766664 >>723767874 >>723767912 >>723768203 >>723769813 >>723771283 >>723773130 >>723773583 >>723773941 >>723774206 >>723779787 >>723780856
Are shmups and other arcade genres like run 'n' guns objectively flawed due to having objective metrics of performance and ultimately being an execution test for an unchanging correct course of action determined by the game? Are games like Super Mario 64 and Minecraft inherently "better" for being open-ended?
Anonymous No.723762983 [Report]
>the game gives you an evaluation
oh no! this is flawed I need my bing bing wahoo!
Anonymous No.723764645 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
Grok, too many words. Please summarize.
Anonymous No.723764747 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
Shumps are those games where every single one you play the same floating dot that can't make an impact with anything. Nothing in any of these games is as cool or viscerally fun as punching a dude in a beat'em up. Of any genre shmups stand out the least from each other. They also have smaller sprites with less animations.
Anonymous No.723766421 [Report] >>723766561 >>723771041 >>723781024 >>723790372
Beat em ups just evolved into rougelites. Theyre the same type of game fundamentally.
Change my mind.
Anonymous No.723766561 [Report]
>>723766421
Anonymous No.723766664 [Report] >>723790372
>>723762586 (OP)
I just don’t find them fun. Games like vampire survivors are more designed for the brains reward system. If I wanted to do homework, I’d do homework.
Anonymous No.723767874 [Report] >>723769254 >>723772827 >>723774209 >>723774271 >>723775160 >>723781713
>>723762586 (OP)
I'm not reading all that. All games are memorization. There is an optimal way to beat SM64, and Minecraft played open-endedly is a simulator, not a game. All games are played to be won. Even competitive games, at the highest level of play, is studying your opponent, devising a strategy, and executing it accordingly. The key to victory is always minimizing improvisation so mental stack is minimal when risk inevitably presents itself.

Additionally, static design is not a negative. The more predictable a game is, the fairer it is. A well designed game is a consistent one with many layers of complexity to unravel. And that's what a good shmup is. A really well designed game that can be unraveled for many years. Games like Chess, Go, and Shogi have been played for over a thousand years and are incredibly consistent and simple games, but have many layers of complexity, and when two players face each other in those games they are working together to unravel its secrets when they test each other's strength. This is the essence of aesthetics in gameplay. Hope that helps!
Anonymous No.723767912 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
I don't agree with many of Boghog's opinions, but he articulates them well. He should run his own channel instead of serving as a bitchboy slave to that 70IQ lolcow Mark.
Anonymous No.723768203 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
>Are games like Super Mario 64 and Minecraft inherently "better" for being open-ended?
didn't read anything other than this, the answer is Yes.
Anonymous No.723769254 [Report] >>723769448 >>723770021
>>723767874
>A really well designed game that can be unraveled for many years
>Uhhhh... here you're gonna wanna go left... and after that, go to the right... and now you'll wanna use a bomb...
Wow bro, mucho thinko...
Anonymous No.723769448 [Report] >>723770021
>>723769254
>replying to the onimai faggot
He plays shmups and nothing else, ignore
Anonymous No.723769813 [Report] >>723787447
>>723762586 (OP)
When evaluating, specifically, the artistic merit of Silksong, we have to ask: does it elevate taste? Specifically, is it what I like to call a Taste Elevator: game design that trains players toward density, mastery, and precision, much like how Dodonpachi taught risk-reward at bullet density, or how Final Fight drilled spacing discipline every second you touched the stick. Silksong at least aims at that tradition of skill elevation, whether or not it succeeds because it's also a Metroidvania and thus suffers from what I like to call Temporal Exploration Exhaustion and Self-Serve Upgrade Casino.

Now contrast that with Expedition 33. What we have here is not a Taste Escalator but what I like to call Taste Leprosy: the slow rotting of standards.

First, RPG combat is the definition of Menu Sludge, turn-based non-interactivity masquerading as strategy, theater mechanics where your only real action is selecting icons from a list; a Kierkegaardian despair loop where the player is locked into repetition of numbers and level-ups, a Baudrilliardian Feedback Simulacrum mistaking statistical growth for mechanical growth. It’s Nietzschean Permissiveness at its worst: no strict mastery, no pressure, only the illusion of consequence. The result is, specifically, what I like to call Ludic Necrosis: gameplay that rots the more you engage with it.

Second, RPGs suffer from what I like to call Skill Defenestration: throwing depth like spacing out the window in favor of bloated stats and currency loops. When E33 tries to compensate, like by adding a parrying mechanic, it turns into Mitochondrial Heliocentric Theodicy. This isn’t Skill Enforcement Density but Progression Anesthesia: press button, watch animation, numbers go up. Compared to the scoring pressure of Ketsui or the raw immediacy of Silksong's lack of inertia and input lag, Expedition 33 is for people allergic to gameplay, like IGN journalists. It lowers taste by design, what I like to call Septic Tank Design.
Anonymous No.723770021 [Report] >>723771084 >>723773242 >>723774206
>>723769254
>Uhhhh... here you're gonna wanna go left... and after that, go to the right... and now you'll wanna use a bomb...
I've already explained this in another thread, using bees in DaiOuJou as an example. For the average player they are used in conjunction with chains to gain hyper meter during key parts of a level, which actually *lessens* how strict routing is. But because it is a complex game with many interlinked designs, they also function as a scoring multiplier, and by maximizing chains you are activating hyper constantly, which increases rank and makes the game more difficult, similarly to Garegga, but in my opinion a lot more elegant.. So ironically, the level of freedom in clearing the game is a result of its strict and punishing scoring system.
>>723769448
You forgot your lain avatar.
Anonymous No.723770053 [Report] >>723770457 >>723770526
Reminder the onimaifag does not play games other than shmups
Do not engage with the onimaifag
Anonymous No.723770457 [Report]
>>723770053
Not only that, but he admits to only playing easier shmups, and doesn't even get impressive scores at that
Anonymous No.723770526 [Report]
>>723770053
>Reminder the onimaifag does not play games other than shmups
>why are you discussing shmups in a shmup thread
retard alert
Anonymous No.723770640 [Report]
Not exactly a shmup, but any games similar to After Burner Climax?
Anonymous No.723770715 [Report] >>723787545
did any of you read the op image? is it as faggy as it appears to be?
Anonymous No.723770893 [Report]
fine ill play battle garegga
Anonymous No.723771041 [Report]
>>723766421
I do not know how I would go about changing your mind because, like some strange Leviathan conjured up from the mind of H.P. Lovecraft, your mind is simply too alien and malformed to comprehend.
Anonymous No.723771084 [Report] >>723771384
>>723770021
>So like... there's these items you get that, uh... fill your meter and give you a higher score... but also, it... uh... makes the game harder
Oh man... my brain can't handle all this complexity
Anonymous No.723771283 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
>Are shmups and other arcade genres like run 'n' guns objectively flawed due to having objective metrics of performance and ultimately being an execution test for an unchanging correct course of action determined by the game?
the good shmups have enough depth to the scoring that it's not obvious what the best move is at any given point. it's still evaluated to a number like everything else in a video game, but you have to experiment and act according to your intuition to succeed.
>Are games like Super Mario 64 and Minecraft inherently "better" for being open-ended?
no. mario 64 has an objective best state which is 120 stars. but it doesn't ask much of the player to get there. having superfluous mechanics that are never explored even in "optional" content is just bad design.
Anonymous No.723771384 [Report] >>723772029
>>723771084
But they don't just give you a high score. They're placed strategically in places like before a boss, so a player could utilize them to have hyper for the boss and *skip* more difficult boss patterns which means they have to memorize *less* and the game is drastically different when you're not linking enemy waves. So its a small amount of easy to understand mechanics which form a complex interlinked network via immaculate level design.
Anonymous No.723772029 [Report] >>723772290
>>723771384
>Oh, and, uh... you can also use it to like... beat bosses quicker
I see... my mind is expanding as I understand these vast intricacies more and more...
Anonymous No.723772290 [Report] >>723772850 >>723774206
>>723772029
Does SM64 have anything like that, despite all of its supposed freedom? No? You just collect the star and that's it? Well then, what the fuck now?
Anonymous No.723772689 [Report] >>723772810
I told you not to reply to onimai poster, now look what you've done
Anonymous No.723772810 [Report] >>723773215
>>723772689
You forgot your lain avatar again.
Anonymous No.723772827 [Report]
>>723767874
hows the transition going sister?
Anonymous No.723772850 [Report] >>723773087
>>723772290
>Uhhh... Can you play SM64 like a shmup?
Well, I guess you got me there
Anonymous No.723773087 [Report] >>723773445
>>723772850
There are two things you can do in SM64
>go in the most optimal direction possible
>go in the wrong direction and accomplish nothing until you get put on the optimal path
End of story. That's the entire game functionally. There's not even any true meaningful deviations in routing like, say, mega man, its literally just taking the optimal path less optimally, which is a piss poor definition of freedom, I'd say. And here we can identify the actual argument, that you feel shmups are simply too punishing and you want to get to the end no matter how poorly you play. You should be more honest with yourself.
Anonymous No.723773130 [Report] >>723773501
>>723762586 (OP)
Shmups and other games that originated from arcades are objectively better because they don’t waste your time. It’s the arcade owner’s responsibility to keep customers playing long enough to enjoy themselves, but not so long that extended play cuts into profits or increases the power bill. Shmups have little to no downtime—every moment is filled with high-octane action. Lose focus for even a second, and you risk losing both your streak of constant fun and money from your pocket.
Anonymous No.723773215 [Report]
>>723772810
Not sure what the hell you're on about
Anonymous No.723773242 [Report] >>723773392
>>723770021
Neither of those anons, but didn't you say you changed your mind and that shmups are a dogshit genre because someone in one of these threads hurt your feelings? I remember that pretty vividly
Anonymous No.723773263 [Report]
>if you imported megaman x into a shmup he wouldn't be able to dodge the bullets
Woah...the geniuses of shmupfags...
Anonymous No.723773392 [Report]
>>723773242
Nah I said raizing is dogshit. Which it is.
Anonymous No.723773445 [Report]
>>723773087
>Uh... so like, in this game you can, uh... either play well or not
Stop, please, I can only take so much scholarly wisdom
Anonymous No.723773447 [Report] >>723778567
Batrider's "Special Level Up" bullshit that adds another fucking boss to Stage 5 every time you accidentally pick up an Option at the wrong time is more punishing than fucking anything in Garegga.
Anonymous No.723773501 [Report] >>723773679
>>723773130
do you see the irony of your post? the chief complaint of arcade games is that it does waste your waste time. eventually you're going to master interim stages to a point where any novelty is gone and it is effectively down time, going through the motions of a tiresome task before you can get back to the novel learning environment that's actually engaging.
Anonymous No.723773583 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
Imagine getting filtered by shmups. Disgraceful.
Anonymous No.723773679 [Report]
>>723773501
Good shmups don't have boring early stages and you can continually optimize them for score as you learn the later stages. This is why DOJ pretty much combines stage 1 and 2 from DDP into a single stage for its opener. Because stage 1 and 2 in DDP were fucking awful. Combined with its deeper scoring system this fixes that and makes it interesting. You can see a similar change going from Mushi to Futari, its impossible to play Futari and be bored at any given moment, its pure distilled fun.
Anonymous No.723773941 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
>"player expression"
Outside of sandbox games, almost every instance of "player expression" ends up being
>speedrunner exploits
>literally copying a meta
>spamming everything you have in sequence
Anonymous No.723773981 [Report] >>723774082
>speedtranny garbage is considered the highest pinnacle of skill
We need to end this meme
Anonymous No.723774082 [Report] >>723774156 >>723774519 >>723774807
>>723773981
>i mashed XXXYXYXXY in ninja gaiden, its peak skill bruh
Anonymous No.723774156 [Report]
>>723774082
i just moved my ship back and forth, its peak skill bruh
Anonymous No.723774206 [Report]
>>723762586 (OP)
>>723770021
>>723772290
At least change up what you do.
Anonymous No.723774209 [Report]
>>723767874
your effort posts are wasted on absolute fools anon. while i understand, they wont even try
Anonymous No.723774271 [Report]
>>723767874
Anonymous No.723774285 [Report]
>garegga
>hard
Anonymous No.723774312 [Report]
Put on a trip already.
Anonymous No.723774519 [Report] >>723774598
>>723774082
>actually it isn't skill because...i made a funny greentext xd
Anonymous No.723774598 [Report] >>723775294
>>723774519
The ninja gaiden 4 thread is dying, might want to focus your efforts there because you look like an absolute moron after shilling that for months.
Anonymous No.723774807 [Report] >>723774871
>>723774082
Where in my post did I mention Ninja Gaiden?
Anonymous No.723774871 [Report] >>723774951
>>723774807
Too late to walk it back now
Anonymous No.723774951 [Report]
>>723774871
What? Please show where in my post I mentioned Ninja Gaiden
Anonymous No.723775160 [Report]
>>723767874
What a retarded webm. You cant focus on an anime while playing shmups at the same time. This is purely performative
Anonymous No.723775269 [Report]
>samefagging this hard
Onimaifag...
Anonymous No.723775294 [Report]
>>723774598
>1. you're the one who mentioned it 2. I was referring to Ninja gaiden 1-3 duh... inb4 why? because i felt like it.
Anonymous No.723776727 [Report]
Are gacha games good because they steal "mastering da gaem" steps from arcade games for their end game game modes?
At first you struggle to beat thing because you don't know who's good to use there or it's mechanics. Then you find a way to consistently beat it. Then you find way too full yolo it, because it would result in better score, which will result in better position on leaderboard and better rewards. You literally follow the same path with arcade games: credit feed to see the end -> 1cc -> scoring runs.
Anonymous No.723778482 [Report]
yes but have you SEEN how DENSE the gameplay is?
Anonymous No.723778567 [Report]
>>723773447
Just learn the bosses bro.
Well, aside from the red nigger, you are justified in throwing bombs there since he can get you with a fast spread at any time during the first phase. Green is easiest, yellow is fairly normal.
Anonymous No.723778636 [Report] >>723778916 >>723780742
For me it was FINAL FIGHT RAPES, TORTURES AND SHITS MODERN ACTION GAMES then his playthrough is exploiting an infinite
Anonymous No.723778809 [Report] >>723780224
Got very close to 1cc'ing 2hu 7
The last phase doesn't actually seem hard. It's basically that one attack Glow Squid does in Battle Garegga + Another attack where you can basically stand still. But nerves still get you. Also all the previous attacks are pretty hard. Not as hard as Youmu in Stage 5 though, I think that's where I lost most of my lives. I wish there was a bit of a better stage select where you could choose which boss/attack you want to practice rather than doing the whole stage.
Anonymous No.723778916 [Report]
>>723778636
the final fight infinite is kino doughbeit
Anonymous No.723779787 [Report] >>723780485
>>723762586 (OP)
No, but what's objectively flawed is the idea of focusing on one aspect of gaming and acting like it has to be the whole point of the entire hobby.
M*rk does this by trying to apply arcade design standards to everything, and detractors of said design do the same by pointing out what it lacks while falling back to modern conventions, as if these things are inherently enjoyable or unenjoyable, and they aren't just projecting their feelings on everyone else.

It's fine to bring up attention to a certain style of game design, trying to explain its appeal and benefits over other styles, it might inspire devs to make more of it. The problem is when you pretend *your* standards are *the* standards. There is absolutely no reason for why games should be used to only ever express one style over the other when there's an audience for both, and it's asinine to play this weird game of pretend where people act like they don't understand author's intention by telling us how a shmup should be an open-world RPG or that Minecraft should add a strict scoring system.
Anonymous No.723780224 [Report] >>723781056
>>723778809
>I wish there was a bit of a better stage select where you could choose which boss/attack you want to practice rather than doing the whole stage.
thprac
Anonymous No.723780485 [Report] >>723780820
>>723779787
>or that Minecraft should add a strict scoring system
you say that but tryhard comp pvp mineycrafta is a thing
Anonymous No.723780742 [Report]
>>723778636
Looping infinites in old beat em ups are unironically more fun than doing combos in character action games where it's just an extremely forgiving sequence of button presses with a huge buffer.
Anonymous No.723780780 [Report]
The absolute shit I read here lmfao
Anonymous No.723780820 [Report] >>723780926
>>723780485
PvP multiplayer is already different enough from scoring in singleplayer, although the purpose is similar.
My point is more like that having a system evaluating your performance in Minecraft as a whole would be against its vision since it's meant to allow creative player expression. It would be the same mistake as introducing RPG elements in a shmup so you can grind until level design doesn't matter anymore.
Anonymous No.723780856 [Report] >>723780925
>>723762586 (OP)
yes
any simplistic reflex-test game is not even interesting, good games are about interesting choices, not just fast reaction
Anonymous No.723780925 [Report]
>>723780856
Good thing shmups have routing and resource management then
Anonymous No.723780926 [Report]
>>723780820
>against its vision since it's meant to allow creative player expression
If you aren't playing something to beat it then it's not a game. Kid Pix is not a game. Minecraft stripped of its winning condition is a simulator.
Anonymous No.723781024 [Report] >>723781486 >>723786110 >>723790372
>>723766421
If you said "arcade games" instead of specifying beat'em ups, you'd be correct. The flow is very similar, you drill a short game until you get the run, except it solves the problems most people have with this sort of game via randomization and metaprogression.
Anonymous No.723781056 [Report] >>723781227 >>723781931
>>723780224
my computer seems to think this is severe malware and it deleted it before i could allowlist it and then i downloaded it again and allowlisted it faster this time but it still won't run whether it's in a game folder or not
Anonymous No.723781227 [Report] >>723781392 >>723781931
>>723781056
oh yup looks like windows still thinks it knows better than me and fucking deleted it again
Anonymous No.723781392 [Report] >>723781931
>>723781227
never mind it seems like the shortcut just got fucked up somehow
still won't run though, i double click it and it does nothing regardless of whether I'm in a game or not
Anonymous No.723781486 [Report] >>723781553
>>723781024
But that's why he said "evolved"
The proderdal gne r ration of threbs for when there. Was was back arcase wisges for have it, right? Like if they could would have and for. I guess if you tvtvtthtvvinnfk for like michch3al jackssonrjr beat it is just proto-hades 2. Abd for yeah. Asteroid is like bullet hell shooter gdgggggggggggggggg
Ggg
G
Gg

Ggggggg
I think he for is more rwught then he is is rhwwron GGGGGGG[]
122222344
YOu know?
Anonymous No.723781538 [Report]
RIP anon
Anonymous No.723781553 [Report]
>>723781486
I think your bot broke bro
Anonymous No.723781713 [Report] >>723781897 >>723782365
>>723767874
>All games are memorization
Bad games are memorization of fixed scenarios.
Good games are memorization of systems and rules.
Anonymous No.723781897 [Report]
>>723781713
"Fixed" scenarios are a thing in most games, typically the meta of anything will focus on defining those and formulating optimal answers. You just have bad pattern recognition.
Anonymous No.723781931 [Report]
>>723781056
>>723781227
>>723781392
ok well the previous version works
Anonymous No.723782365 [Report]
>>723781713
No shmup is *rote* memorization. Additionally, only a very shallow game would boil down to a memorization of mere systems and rules. This is actually why games like yugioh and magic are quite bad in their ivory tower design. You don't play chess by just learning the rules. You chunk memorize tactical patterns in chess and from this other deeper elements of the game surface, just as you would approach sequences in a shmup. If a shmup was purely rote memorization then there would not be a single shmup that takes longer than a few hours to 1cc. However, if no routing was involved, and it was just dodging bullets, well that would be a very retarded and boring game indeed with extremely simple designs. The foundation of success in life is learning through memorization and analyzing and synthesizing that knowledge into practical scenarios. Humans solve increasingly complex puzzles not by intuition, but by building on previous experience. It's what seperates us from dumb animals.
Anonymous No.723782392 [Report]
Why did you keep engaging the non-playing onimaifag...
Anonymous No.723785135 [Report]
Extremely strange issue on Zero Gunner 2, the enemies just stopped appearing
Anonymous No.723786110 [Report] >>723786853
>>723781024
>metaprogression
Retard
Anonymous No.723786853 [Report] >>723787232
>>723786110
Not an argument.
Anonymous No.723787232 [Report]
>>723786853
You don't play roguelikes. Shut the fuck up
Anonymous No.723787447 [Report]
>>723769813
>I can't play turn based games because planning for the future is too difficult for me and needing to make long term choices is something I am unable to do.
you can just say turn based games are too hard for you anon.
Anonymous No.723787463 [Report]
I find it basically impossible to play fighting games on arcade stick but actually really natural and fun to play shmups with it, including Touhou which people tend to swear by keyboard for. Anyone else?
Anonymous No.723787545 [Report] >>723788360 >>723789321 >>723789847
>>723770715
nah its an okay post but hes being overly safe to avoid anyone seeing it as antagonistic in the slightest despite what hes saying, which makes it kind of faggy.
its basically saying that calling it player expression when there is an objectively correct way of playing the game which maximizes score is just a cope for bad players who either don't know how the score system works or are unable to meet the requirements. for example it isn't play expression to go for body shots overheads in an fps, its objectively better to always go for a headshot, as it is only a lack of skill that causes this, its an illusion of choice as there is a correct answer.
which is a correct assessment.
Anonymous No.723788360 [Report] >>723788594
>>723787545
In the context of shmups, what of runs with any ship or powerup combo that's not considered optimal, and the player is well aware of it?
Anonymous No.723788594 [Report] >>723788638
>>723788360
Often shmups will separate scores by character
So like in Garegga, Gain is by far the highest-scoring character, but people still play with Snail/Bat, Miyamoto, or Bornham. Within those characters' runs is still an optimal scoring route.
Anonymous No.723788638 [Report]
>>723788594
>Often shmups will separate scores by character
Actually not really. It exists in some games I'm aware but the vast majority I played have only one leaderboard.
Anonymous No.723788754 [Report]
sus logo
Anonymous No.723789321 [Report]
>>723787545
>when there is an objectively correct way of playing the game which maximizes score
So maybe there's a reason why RPGs that prioritize player expression do NOT have a motherFUCKING score system.
Anonymous No.723789847 [Report] >>723792393 >>723792507
>>723787545
He’s right but I also think it’s worth pointing out that risk vs reward only makes sense as a mechanic if it’s valid to go with lower risk plays. Once a game has been optimized and practiced to the point that winning players can land 100% of headshots, it’s no longer risk vs reward, it’s just a stricter win condition. Either you go for the headshot, or you lose.

IDK the game the OP is about. But I am going to assume that even if there is some abstract “absolutely correct line” through the game which is guaranteed to yield the highest achievable score, what it means for a human player to score well involves playing to their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses. If the scoring system is rigid and narrow enough that what it looks like to play for a high score is actually just every player trying the Objectively Correct Line every time… that’s a different thing. Most score based games aren’t like that.
Anonymous No.723790368 [Report]
fake interest
Anonymous No.723790372 [Report]
>>723766421
>>723781024
The metaprogression and randomization does fundamentally change the way the games are played; death becomes a step forward and almost anything placed in front of the player can be overcome with enough patience or luck instead of actually figuring out how to deal with it using the baseline tools. Most roguelites also involve builds; items and synergies you get at regular intervals that the devs couldn't possibly design encounters fully around compared to arcade games where everything is (ideally) built around the core moveset you have at the start (or what is achievable with the powerups found before that point, but that's usually just shmups). Plus most roguelites use more modern combat design choices like loading up i-frames and stat tweaks based on percentages which again completely changes how you approach things.

People judge arcade games by their worst experiences with them for some reason; some games were balanced to steal your money so they must all have been (even console/PC ones that aren't built on coin-op). It's like when people say fighting games are so hard compared to other games when they're fundamentally not, it's a matter of perspective and willingness to learn. At least an opinion like >>723766664 is understandable even if it's completely different from mine; roguelites are often a breezier experience because death is expected and part of moving forward instead of a wall that makes you start from zero until you learn it better.
Anonymous No.723791557 [Report]
Shmups are also about progression, but the progression is more honest; it's within yourself, with your skills. When you die, you don't gain any extra items or unlockables, but you do get a little better each time, until eventually you get the 1cc.
Anonymous No.723792393 [Report]
>>723789847
>IDK the game the OP is about
it says garegga multiple times
Anonymous No.723792507 [Report]
>>723789847
>what it means for a human player to score well involves playing to their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses
and yeah this is about right. even t3 kamui who's been playing the game since middle school fucks up and has to improvise sometimes, and still gets massive scores