Thread 723822098

If you can accept plate armor in "medieval" fantasy, then you should be also able to accept firearms in "medieval" fantasy.

I think you gunfags understand this. Tolkien stuff is the standard for medieval fantasy. Not actual irl stuff from the Middle Ages

>>723823646
Oh, but Tolkien didn't imagine there being plate around. The tech level is consistent for early medieval period, the age of Beowulf and such like.

>>723823990
>Oh, but Tolkien didn't imagine there being plate around
but, he did. you didnt watch Lord of the Rings then lil bro because there’s plate armor in the movies. go back to your fortnite
>The tech level is consistent for early medieval period, the age of Beowulf and such like.
no one cares. like i already said, Tolkien made the standard

>>723824207
I just asked Tolkien and he said you'r are wrong doe??

>>723824207
It rather sounds like it's Peter Jackson (or Weta Workshop) that "made the standard"

>>723823646
Tolkien stuff was chainmail armors. Jackson films were not really that book accurate about gear and aesthetics.

>>723822098 (OP)
>wizard shoots fireball
>>My suspension of disbelief is intact
>wizard shoots gun
>>My suspension of disbelief is shattered

Why are fantasyfags like this

>>723824207
>but, he did. you didnt watch Lord of the Rings then lil bro because there’s plate armor in the movies. go back to your fortnite
Nice b8 m8

>>723822098 (OP)
Only if you accept a white king and a black queen in every fantasy monarchy.

Fantasy fags tend to be overweight slobs who think they'd be some medieval king or Alexander the Great and that the only thing holding the back is gay leftist modern warfare where strength and skill is seen by them as meaningless. Of course in reality they would've been put on a field with a padded coat and a sharpened wood stick and then walked into spearpoints.

>>723822098 (OP)
if it's an industrial process then guns change the setting entirely.

>>723822098 (OP)
I would like to see medieval fantasy games with gunpowder weapons that are as clumsy as the early ones were but basically every setting that includes them they're pretty much magic. Let me carry a musket loaded, shoot it and then draw my sword or whatever other weapon I have.

>>723828759
>shitjak
>IPhone filename
didn't even read your post

>>723829642
>medieval
>musket
m8

>>723830265
Whatever the fuck. A metal pipe that you load with gunpowder and a projectile.

Those were prototype that people were only trying because they were not sure if they were worth it. They weren't. If you ever have access to a time machine and you go back to medieval time and you're in charge of arsenal, the first thing to do is those clowns to drop this stupid shit and replace it with either mechanical crossbows of air gun. Yes fucking air compression weaponry, with modern knowledge, beats this absolute circus shit. The only good part is that the enemy ALSO wasn't aware how much these things sucked dick and therefore they might believe they are worth a damn and get spooked over nothing. Or at least the horses would. But then again you don't a self-exploding weapon to make loud noises to spook horses.

>>723830380
You're dumb af. Medieval firearms were very interesting because of their forms and how they had to be used. Unfortunately that's completely lost on someone like you.

>>723822098 (OP)
Wouldn't that be Renaissance fantasy then?

>>723830581
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

>>723830661
Firearms developed about a century before the renaissance.

>>723830380
Handgonne is the one I see the most often.

>>723822098 (OP)
No.

>>723830743
Hand cannon.

>>723824685
>wizard drives a tesla and cuts his dick off while sucking shit out of a nigger's anus
>>My suspension of disbelief is shattered

Fantasy is unironically less fantastical than reality now that its dominated by autists rather than historians.

No nerd is gonna give you a Loshult Gun because it doesn't fit into his understanding of fantasy.

>>723822098 (OP)
fagg warriors already complain about mages and archers and do you really think they would tolerate guns in their games when their fantasy is to walk around the battlefield with a sword in hand?

>>723830971
>firearms are medieval
>teslas are not
Retardo

>>723831043
If they complain just throw some petrol on them and cast fireball.

>>723830669
I know that not one person in OP's pic is holding a weapon better than a crossbow. Air compression technology is late 1700 (with Girandoni rifle being poster child) so that's why I specify that you'd need to be bringing modern knowledge. Either way, no video game should have these stupid weapons on account they are, yes, failed prototype of shit that they wished would be worth it but wasn't. That unreliable primitive gunpowder would be better spent on non-ballistic explosives.

>>723830971
See? Autism instead of Historians.

>>723822098 (OP)
What if instead we accepted a truly modern age fantasy game with proto-PMCs, religious wars, baroque aesthetics and increasingly comical german empire infighting
What settings scratch this itch outside of Warhammer Fantasy?

>>723831137
Europe was using cannons in the 1300s.
Why the fuck would you rule out ballistic seige weaponry when we had them?

>>723830725
If you want to be technical, they were developed around the 10th century. In Europe, they started showing up around the end of the 13th, and the Renaissance is commonly held to have started in the 14th.

>>723830581
>>723831137
There is an ongoing discussion about the effectiveness of the medieval handgonnes. A lot of people claim the handgonne was a weapon with a mere psychological effect; that the smoke, sound and fire scared enemies, and that the weapon really didn’t have any tactical use. A battlefield is a horrifying place, with death, fear and suffering all over, and even if loud bangs, smoke and the smell of sulphur probably would increase the chaos and confusion, it wouldn’t make a whole lot of difference. Furthermore, soldiers would not have gone into battle time and again with a weapon they didn’t trust, and was just for ”show”, a city would not have bought 500 of them, and the handgonne would not have developed into what it is today. Let’s take a closer look at what a handgonne is really doing.

One of the differences between the handgonne and other ranged weapons of the age is that arrows and crossbow bolts are that the latter do cutting damage, similar to knives or other edged weapons. They harm by puncturing or cutting organs and limbs. The area affected is small, about the size of the arrow head. This means that you have to hit a vital organ or nerve-centre to put an opponent out of action. There is more than one account of people continuing to fight even when pierced by several arrows. The handgonne on the other hand does kinetic damage. The projectile from a handgonne doesn’t pass through the target as easily as an arrow would, and this means it transfers more of its motive energy into what ever is being hit. The motive energy affects a larger area of an opponents body, as it sets the fluids and fat in the human organism in vibrating motion, which in quite a few instances can injure vital organs. How big an area affected depends of the velocity and weight of the projectile – the higher the weight and speed, the worse the effect.

>>723830581
>>723831137
>>723831432
The usual way to evaluate the damage done by modern firearms is to see how many joule of energy it transfers into its target. The higher the amount of transferred energy, the bigger the damage to the tissues of the body. Tests have shown that the energy transferred by a handgonne is about 1000 joule – a modern assault rifle transfers about 1100. Handgonnes also worked like a charm against the armour of professional soldiers and knights. As these were mainly adapted to cope with arrows and sharp weapons, the sheer power of a projectile from a handgonne would strike an unlucky target to the ground, and with great possibility severely injure him, or at least make him unable to continue the fight.

Now lay down retard. You're done.

>>723831079
>>723831213
so you're saying eunuchs didn't exist
great historians over here

>>723831351
What if we just set some games during the middle ages rather than medieval?
Medieval is fucking boring and carried solely by the War of the Roses because NOBODY is making games set in Byzantium due to the fact that it makes the anglo-germanics look like fucking pig people in comparison.

>>723822098 (OP)
>t.

>>723822098 (OP)
Why are games with armor + firearms very rare? Knights had pistols and rifles. It's hard to market them? Or what gives?

>>723831378
The Renaissance begins in the 15th century. You're arguing for what is called the Proto-Renaissance which is more commonly called the Late Middle Ages.

>>723831475
That was more an Ottoman thing you zuttslut.

>>723831592
That would have been funny if this thread wasn't full of examples of medieval firearms you fucking retard.

>>723831359
>oh shit the dude isn't retarded after all, ok no wait I got this, he said those hand carried weapons are retarded so I'll pretend he's arguing against SIEGE CANNONS
rly?

>>723831781
You're the retard thinking some shitty handgonnes would be different from crossbows.

>>723831529
It was really eye opening for me when I realized how absolutely backwater western Europe was compared to the Eastern Roman Empire. I don't even like calling it that since it was just the Roman Empire. Which did not suddenly end in 476 AD like (((pop history))) loves to claim.

>>723824207
anon is it really good to be doing this?

>>723830743
Handgonnes are arguably thought of far too much compared to other medieval firearms, especially the arquebus.
The black army of Hungary was ca. 1/4 just arquebus gunners.

i want pike and shot fantasy im tired of medievalslop

>>723831968
Imagine peasants using Hussite tactics against orcs/goblin raiders, would be cool.

>>723822098 (OP)
bottom two guns: can you show me any video game that uses those? There is also an entire arsenal of ancient & medieval siege weapons that you could implement before guns.

>>723831592
But you're fine with plate armor, correct?

>the only reson guns exist is because at one point in human history it was considered proper conduct of warfare to just make a really loud noise and try to scare your enemy away
>if we actually judged it purely on combat effectiveness it would have never become popular and never been developed and refined into modern weapons we have today
>we only have accurate long range kenetic energy weapons because monke liked to make big boom to scare other monke
aliens dont stand a chance desu, i bet they dont even eat their planets equivalent of garlic

>>723831964
I thought matchlocks weren't invented until the 1400s?

>>723822098 (OP)
Tiffany is a name that comes from the 12th century but using it will cause people to go 'that doesn't belong there'

>>723831432
>Furthermore, soldiers would not have gone into battle time and again with a weapon they didn’t trust
Historians need to abandon this absolute childish mentality. "If X didn't work then they wouldn't have done X". The answer yes they would. People in the past repeatedly did things that were wrong. The doctors didn't keep statistics of which remedy actually cured illness and which killed the patients, and neither did the weapon makers produce statistics of weapon accuracy and lethality to the owner.

>>723824685
Magic fits the setting, guns don't

>>723831845
Cunt its not supposed to be fundamentally different its just for some fucking fun and flavour.

Jesus Christ when did games drop the concept of educational fun? "Hey not only is it fun that you've got a gun but its based on a real weapon!"
Nah now we have historytrannies trying to castrate guns out of history because they don't identify with historical fact.

You're the John Money of historical education you cunt.

>>723831043
>>723830973
there are literally plenty of games with sword guns. But the late medieval period & renaissance was gay and everyone knows the early medieval and dark ages were kino.

>>723830606
fags like you is why we can't have nice things

>>723831968
NOOOOO MUH WAR OF THE ROSES AESTHETIC THOUGH

>>723830581
>mechanical crossbow
>ever able to compete with the manufacturing, reload speed and power output of medieval guns
>air guns
>with medieval metallurgy and sealant options
Lol, lmao even

My personal pet peeve is that everyone in fantasy uses shields with straps designed for cavalry, where the shield sort of lays on your arm's side, instead of actual infantry shields where they are held out in front of you.

>>723832283
>yeah we're mass producing and dedicating huge portions of our infrastructure for this ineffective weapon for tens of thousands of soliders all around europe as a joke
Abandon posting tardface

>>723832430
Lewis and clark used air guns just fine.
Legitimately would’ve been a cool invention if someone had thought of it sooner.

>>723831781
But the people don't want medieval firearms, they want modern weapons with similar reliability and lethality but with a medieval flair.

>>723831137
The early repeaters like the Kalthoff or Lorenzoni weren't failures but they were very expensive for mass production due to the precision needed to craft them. But they were devastating. One could shoot 30 lead balls per minute with 16 or 32 balls in the reservoir, the wheellock would be rewound with the same motion that loaded the next powder/ball.

>>723831968
Play Warhammer fantasy games, then.

>>723832193
The black army of Hungary started in the mid 1400s

>>723832351
>flavor
>just a crossbow that makes a loud bang aside from launching a projectile that can pierce a knight's armor
Go hang yourself you useless autist.
>muh historical education
who gives a fuck about that in video games lol, historyfags already know about medieval firearms from other sources like books.

>>723832187
Except none of that is true. Black powder weapons started out as small explosives (ye olde bomb) and eventually evolved into explosives launching projectiles (ye olde bombard).

>>723822098 (OP)
Correct. Also get rid of all the corn, tomatoes, potatoes, chocolate, and tobacco infesting every setting.

I ain't racis'. Just don like guns in me fantasy is all.

>>723832364
Byzantium is better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_II
>Having crushed the Bulgarians, Basil exacted his vengeance cruelly—he was said to have captured 15,000 prisoners and fully blinded 99 of every 100 men, leaving one one-eyed man in each cohort to lead the rest back to their ruler. A possible reason for this vengeance was that, in Byzantine eyes, the Bulgarians were rebels against their authority, and blinding was the usual punishment meted out to rebels.[83] Samuel was struck down by the sight of his blinded army and died two days later[32] on 6 October 1014 after suffering a stroke.[81]

>>723832704
That's the 15th century, though. That's renaissance, not medieval.

>>723832430
>a crossbow with a mechanically assisted reloading design cannot compete with the reload speed of medieval guns
r u havin a giggle mate
>with medieval metallurgy and sealant options
Nah, they probably could manufacture something semi-decent if you bring the blueprint and start by accepting it would be a primitive unreliable single shot weapon. It would suck a lot, but still less than handgonne shit.

>>723822098 (OP)
Warhammer Fantasy Battles
Although Empire is not medieval, but early modern state

>>723832569
NIGGER I CAN READ THE FUCKING THREAD AND SEE ALL THE POSTS YOU ARE LYING ABOUT

>>723822098 (OP)
Sure, who says otherwise?

>>723832739
>who gives a fuck about that in video games lol,
I always read the info about units in AoE you faggot.

>>723822098 (OP)
STEEL
FAITH
GUNPOWDER

>>723832564
Yes but that was substantially later than a thing medieval. At that point they ha dood enough metalluegyvfor high pressure steam engines.
And it did help them that they were a small group, makes selecting for high skilled individuals easier, which couldn't afford a long logistical tail as a expedition.
Not having to source gunpowder is a big benefit and I'm pretty sure they could have recast the bullets.
That alone is a big benefit armies would care a lot less about.

>>723832038
Pike and shot vs fantasy would be goated.

>>723828759
To be fair, even basic strategy knowledge from games would have put you above a LOT of shitty noble nepobaby generals.

>>723833085
That doesn't mean anything you doublenigger tranny.

Red is when the first cannons were being used
Green is when the first aquebus were being used

>>723828759
Hey anon, I'll give you a hint. It's in the title of the genre.

>>723833026
You're either lying, stupid, or likely both. But let's have a laugh: what is the fastest a mid 1400s arquebus can be reloaded and fired? What is the effective range? What is the effective lifespan of it's barrel?

>>723832540
>yeah these people went to extremely expensive schools to learn how to become doctor and their books were filled with complete lies
People in the past didn't do statistics so yes, I say, and repeat, and insist, that the fact they dedicated a lot of resources on these weapons does not actually matters in proving they weren't what they are: totally-not-worth-it prototype early firearms, not fit for the battlefield, and grossly outperformed by the simpler cheaper crossbow alternative. The fact that the enemy also didn't know these weapons were shit played a huge role in both sides spamming them trying to scare the other army. Neither had statistics of them being worth it. You know it's true because you don't either have those statistics. Go find me a cost-analysis document, medieval era. Go. I'll wait.

>>723832829
early handguns were way less effective than crossbows and only adopted because they made a loud bang

>>723833272
For me, its 888 to 1346.

>>723822098 (OP)
Genuinely never heard anyone complaining about guns in fantasy
Are you boxing a shadow or is this a bait for autists?

>this one retard desperately trying to push the narrative that medieval black powder weaponry was only used for le loud bangs
KEK

This is why Victorian Fantasy should be the way to go
>Last time Pirates sailed the seas
>The last years of the wild west that still had cool outlaw cowboys
>Samurais largely reduced to Ronins
>A lot of now popular stuff like vampires, werewolves and various things got their first novels
>Aesthetic as fuark weaponry
>Shit like witches and heresy was not as overfeared as it used to be
Just implement your fantasy staple monster/mythological species into the mix and bam, cool fantasy setting.

>>723831432
>There is an ongoing discussion about the effectiveness of the medieval handgonnes
>hand-gonnes
The Proto-Glock of the past millennia was very effective at making hands disappear.

>>723832120
>>723832296
MODERN guns don't fit the setting.
Medieval guns fit a medieval setting

Is it a real hard task to get a pseduo-mecha fantasy setting where Medieval armor are mechs piloted by tiny fairies inside a cockpit?

>>723823646
I'm no Tolkien expert, but doesn't the setting have gunpowder? There was that bomb Count Dooku used.

>>723833927
>irrelevant pseudo-question where you just want to peddle your tired le quirky fantasy concept
Fuck off retard

>>723833663
If those early gunpowder weapons were fully silent they legit wouldn't have used them. It was all about the scary bang bang. Conversely, the early air rifles showed actual serious battlefield potential and yet the technology didn't take off for the simple reason that it lacked the scary bang bang. The loudness of the weapon was unironically a major selling point to those fags who can't do math in order to compute actual effectiveness.

>>723834090
No.

>>723833946
>There was that bomb Count Dooku used.
Those were compressed Galadriel farts that Dooku kept in reserve.
Quite pungent, my dear.

>>723833946
Saruman was a wizard (literal angel) whose whole gimmick was being on the cutting edge of knowledge. So, yeah, there was technically gunpowder, but its existence and application was hoarded by a paranoid megalomaniac. Anyone else would just assume he was using literal magic.

>>723831378
>>723831687
Renaissance begins with the fall of Constantinople in 1453. So 15th century, like anon 2 said.
Renaissance is the revival of Roman art and literature, it was triggered by the scholars and artists of Constantinople fleeing the Turks. Anyone who says anything about it starting on any other date besides May 29, 1453 is just straight up wrong.

>>723833927
Extremely so. Though I think Genndy Tartakovsky is making a movie about a knight in a 20-foot suit of armor.

>>723833946
Saruman's forces had some kind of explosive that might have been it.

>>723834312
>Genndy Tartakovsky is making a movie about a knight in a 20-foot suit of armor.
I wish.

>>723834090
>actual serious battlefield potential
Until they realized the logistics of mass produced pressurized tanks and places to refuel it was a absolute pain in the ass

Simple truths that enrage fantasyspergs
>medieval bombs, cannons and firearms existed at the same time as plate armor
>polearms were not only more commonly used than swords but they were also more effective in both mass AND single combat; no you cannot chop the spearhead off you stupid weeb
>the katana is a trash weapon design glorified in an age where japan didn't have any major wars and samurai were little more than white collar workers, bushido was also invented around that time by these armchair dojo warriors

>>723834571
Which part of this list is meant to enrage?

>>723822098 (OP)
Why? Plate armour was developed to protected against missiles. The french wore it at Crecy and hundred years war

>>723832434
I would have thought all shields would have two points of contact. I can't imagine how you keep it engaged when an enemy slams something into it otherwise.

>>723834571
If you wanna ragebait fantasyfags, specifically weebs, tell them that upon europe's arrival to japan around the time the Sengoku chimpout happened, Japan's armies accepted firearms into their ranks without hesitation, nothing was said about them being dishonorable

>>723834245
True, but things that are rare in LotR are common as fuck in other Tolkien derivative settings. So as precedent for gunpowder appearing in generic fantasy it still works.

>>723833272
Charlemagne was peak.

>>723834691
It stopped being funny when the edit became more popular than the original

>>723834709
Literally no one with any knowledge of the period disputes this. Why would a historical fact bother fantasy fags?

>>723834672
>missiles
not my SCUD missiles though ahahHAHAHHA

>>723834941
A specific subset of weeb goes frothing in the mouth over the idea of samurai using guns

>>723834686
You just support it with your other hand or prop it against your arm

>>723834941
Because katanas get glazed so much that anybody getting told katanas were just shogunate toys boil in anger

>>723834686
Except they don't "slam" into the front of the shield. They hit the edges and deflect off the boss. That's why the shield is held out in front of you. You're still describing the process as if it's laying on your arm/shoulder. Extremely common misconception that would quickly fail in reality.

>>723834571
Well, the katana was useful against unarmored or lightly-armored enemies due to its extreme sharpness, though it was also pretty fragile due to being very hard. But yeah, like all swords, it was strictly a sidearm compared to spears, bows, or guns. Japanese armor was mostly lamellar-pattern leather and resin, anyway.

>>723833223
Probably not, having real world experience and an upbringing that has specifically prepared you for your one role in life is probably going to trump some retard autist who's only ever played total war

>>723832296
retard

>>723834571
The katana was historically complete shit due to poor material and meme blacksmithing but the design is fine. Just a slightly curvy sword that is somewhat balanced for a variety of different strikes. A long straight rapier is still better tho because stabbing OP but I don't see any major reason to shit on kanata design-wise. Is shit against armor but they wore cardboard armor and they used polearms against it anyway so a non-issue.

>>723835192
>They hit the edges and deflect off the boss
Well that's what I was thinking about, Archimedes principle. If you only had one point of contact and something strikes the boss, its going to tip shield inward and outward without two points of contact to keep it firmly oriented.

I would have thought either strapped to the forearm to keep it braced so strikes on the boss don't tip it, or >>723835161 supporting it with your other hand works if you're okay with the restriction. I mean you can't attack while you're using your sword arm to brace your shield.

>>723824685
Why would wizards feel the need to invent guns if they can shoot fireballs? Firearms were shit until the mid 19th century when repeaters and breechloaders became more economical and commonplace, so why would anyone use a shitty matchlock when they can sling explosions around on a whim?

>>723833223
Not really? For all the talk of the nobility's faults and failings, the truly inept tended not to survive their first few battles.

>>723835623
>you can't attack while you're using your sword arm to brace your shield.
You attack with the shield by slamming it into the pagans face

>>723834090
Reminds me of how most soaps have foaming agents added in as otherwise people won't think it's doing anything.

>>723835513
Should also remember that the katana was the civilian variant of the tachi which was primarily utilized as a secondary horseback weapon

>>723835669
For when they run out of mana and want to fool the retards into thinking they can still cast spells so they don't get shanked when vulnerable.

>>723835669
>Why would wizards feel the need to invent guns if they can shoot fireballs?
It makes their peepee hard. Inventing is somehting wizards do, any reasons imaginable.

>>723833223
>Spouting Marxist anti aristocratic libel

The truth is everything cool and awesome you were told about the nobility was true and everything bad was shit made up by the kind of people the nobility were supposed to protect us from.

>>723824685
gunmage is kino

>>723835669
>Why would programmers feel the need to make GUIs if they can tell the computers to do things?

>>723835969
>implying it wasn't both

>>723835681
>For all the talk of the nobility's faults and failings, the truly inept tended not to survive their first few battles.
Drop the wishful thinking. It's something you wish was true and reality does not agree. When a noble in plate armor lead a bunch of forcefully recruited peasants (in rags) to certain death, all the peasants died, and the noble was knocked down, stripped of armor, and ransomed. And guess what? He came back and did it again. Unlike the normal joe, losing did not mean death for them. "If they were bad they died first battle", no they survived in situations in which they should die and we all know it.

>>723833272
why do so few of them use swords? this is gay and inaccurate

>>723835669
Actually why would a wizard even need to invent a gun? Couldn't he just summon a modern day handgun across dimensions?

>>723836003
>Wizards staff is just a Garand
>Cast magic missile
>*PING*

>>723835513
>but the design is fine
The design is SHIT. Slashing weapons are inherently ass and the katana is a clumsily designed one. It's curved but not curved enough, it can pierce but the haft is too short while the blade is too long and it's brittle when in practice its often going to slam into other weapons or objects due to being a slashing weapon. Also the metallurgical techniques associated with it are only suitable for trying to salvage shit tier metals, the technique was only used in the west before they figured out how to properly refine ores. They developed it and abandoned it long before Japan got the memo. Yet weebs and japs think the technique is some secret science that no one else knows.

There's a reason why slashing weapons largely fell out of favor. The arc of a slash is not only inherently more telegraphed and slower than a thrust, making it much easier to defend against, it also transfers less kinetic energy. Additionally slashing or swinging weapons requires more open space and distance in order to be used whereas thrusts can be used in the tightest of quarters. Even more damning is that it is entirely useless against all forms of armor.

its fantasy so we can pick and choose what is based and what is gay (firearms in a setting where people use swords and armor). your response?

>>723836129
>expending more energy on stealing things you can make
N

>>723836003
This.

>>723835681
>the truly inept tended not to survive their first few battles.
Thats not even true in the African slaver wars. African slaver tribes knew what the princes and kings looked like, and would trade 1 king for a dozen slaves because they knew the euros didnt give a shit.
If even the african slaver kings knew to keep the nobles alive, so did everyone else.

>>723835623
Nice headcanon theory but it conflicts with reality. When the blow is deflected that doesn't happen. Additionally holding a shield against your body is an inferior technique because it transfer the impact to you and is also awkard in terms of placing the shield against the strike. Hence it was only used for riders and other similar soldiers who had to use both hands for something else, but in terms of shielding it was strictly inferior.

>>723836091
Because almost universally swords are considered a secondary weapon and generally inferior to polearms in formations

>>723836314
>When the blow is deflected that doesn't happen
Why not?

I usually just don't like how unsatisfying it is to use guns when they are available in medieval games. They're usually poorly implemented.

>>723822098 (OP)
sure

>>723822098 (OP)
Bro, the better Warhammer?

>>723836157
The Katana was a hyped up side arm of a defunct social class of warriors looking for pretty much any excuse to kill each other.

Essentially the Edo period equivalent of the Tec 9

>>723836358
Because the blow (swing) is hitting the rim of the shield or it strikes the boss the impact is largely negated. In cases where it his the flat front of the shield (thrust) it still doesn't happen because it lacks the directional force to do so relative to the grip and structure.

>>723836594
Apt summary.

>>723836605
>Because the blow (swing) is hitting the rim of the shield or it strikes the boss the impact is largely negated
You mean if the swing strikes parallel to the shield? Okay makes sense. No leverage.
>In cases where it his the flat front of the shield (thrust) it still doesn't happen because it lacks the directional force to do so relative to the grip and structure.
If it hits roughly in the middle it has no leverage too, makes sense.

But what about when the strike hits the shield near the rim but perpendicular to the shield?

>>723836358
Why the fuck would you think that would happen? Look at the grip. Maybe your imagination isn't as accurate as you believe.

>>723833223
I'd like point out that you didn't have radios back then, or a top down video game UI to command your NPCs to suicide into the enemy NPCs.

>>723836797
>But what about when the strike hits the shield near the rim but perpendicular to the shield?
The blow would be deflected. In cases of a flat wood shield it could shatter if the shield has sustained sufficient damage over time in one area. But most shields were slightly curved.

>>723836865
That's inaccurate. They'd already worked out the principle of attaching cups with string, so that means it must've been in widespread use on the battlefield. You're just not being accurate to history if your fantasy setting doesn't have everyone on a whatsapp group on their iphones.

>>723831592
Handgonnes and early gunpowder are the total opposite of this though, it's not like asking for modern AR's and F-22's in an era of horseback vanguards and castles.

>>723831432
>>723831469
not saying they were useless but you (or whoever you copied this from) are overrating them. handgonnes were not that great, it was the arquebus which came hundreds of years after that which changed warfare.
later plate armor was resistant against them too. handgonnes were inaccurate as FUCK, had barely any range as those "1000 joules" would halve within 30 meters. the M855A1 5.56 round that the us military used, which was widely considered to be too weak, has 1847 joules of energy at three fucking times the speed of sound with very little energy loss due to its small size and shape (compared to a massive lead ball) and can punch through a car from one door to the other. the new 6.8 used by the XM7 which the us military acquired in 2022 as part of its next generation squad weapon program, goes from 3400 to over 4000 joules.

going to ignore your retarded copy pasted post from a blog to talk about arquebuses now. they were extremely effective and the swiss and german mercenaries wiped the floor with people using them in combination with spears (not big swords like most landsknechtfags here think) which ended up being pike and shot warfare in the early modern period.

What if the fantasy setting has an "It was Earth all along" twist and the legendary ancient relic of the long forgotten civilization is just a Glock?

>>723834312
Sony thinks no one wants to watch badass fantasy mecha, despite millions of people yelling at them....

>>723837315
One of the Might & Magic games does this.

>>723822098 (OP)
I think the problems with fully integrating gunpowder and early firearms into a fantasy setting are mainly 2:
>balance with other weapons and armor
It might be difficult to make a firearm feel balanced in comparison to other weapons in vydia; it is usually either too strong, too weak, or it just isn't distinct enough from a bow or a crossbow.
>slippery slope towards other firearms later on
If the setting adds firearms, it may become slippery slope towards more advanced firearms and gunpowder tech, specially considering how in fantasy worlds things tend to be technologically advanced in some areas, but not in others. The point automatic/fast-firing weapons are introduced in the setting, it's over.

>>723837315
A 9mm Glock?

>>723836157
The feudal era japanese people were extremely malnourished and it shows through all their culture. The average medieval knight holding a sword held in one arm could cut clean through bone but the average samurai holding a sword with one hand would not cut through bone. I cannot explain it better than this picture; only the japanese would have a traditional samurai-style two-handed DAGGER strike. The malnutrition created all sort of small anomalies in the way they handle their weapons, and they continued to handle them weird even after it became a thing of the past, because muh samurai spirit. The needed that katana to be curvy, they needed to use slashing, and they needed both hands firmly on the handle to get anything done. Even Mushashi wrote this down in big letters despite his infamous meme dual wield. Slashing is usually not that good, but here it made sense, and I can't say the katana is essentially a bad design for having a slight curve. But if you're not malnourished then yeah just go for a straight stabby sword. Or spear because spears OP.

>>723837307
>not saying they were useless but
You literally tried to.
>it was the arquebus which came hundreds of years after
The arquebus was invented less than a hundred years later.
>which changed warfare.
Bombards changed warfare. They made traditional medieval fortifications obsolete.
>later plate armor was resistant against them too
Like a shield against a horse kick. You'll probably survive but you're going to be laid up for a while.
>handgonnes were inaccurate as FUCK
Horribly overstated by morons like you. Within their effective ranges they were reliable.
>"1000 joules" would halve within 30 meters.
No.
>modern firearms
So what.
>going to ignore your
Seethe retard. You lie, backpeddle and cope but you're getting exposed brutally for the low IQ abortion you truly are.

>>723837579
Nice cope but slashing is inherently weaker than thrusting so it doesn't make sense that they would use slashing because they are physically weaker.

>>723837579
Bullshit, 2h dagger strikes have their place, this man is likely incompetent and applies incorrect attacks.
Even a malnourished unfit person can do a kill stab with a knife through clothes one-handed.

>>723837579
is this bait or are you really that retarded

>>723837846
>slashing
Depends on the area, strike space and weapon weight.
>thrusting
Depends on the area, strike space and weapon weight.
Either can be non-immediately lethal, or non-critical outright, this entire comparison of "strength" is flawed.

>>723822098 (OP)
So pretty much Warhammer Fantasy?

>>723832540
The real point of early guns was so they could send untrained peasants into the meat grinder.

Ok, let's compromise. A gun that shoots swords.

>>723837846
They knew stabbing was good, which is why they did the thrusting with polearms. If they wanted to use a sword, neither the quality of the material nor the strength of their arm agreed to ignore slashing. Slashing is what you do when you stab and miss, or get parried, or feint, so it's not irrelevant. Unless you assume that you're a god who will always instakill the enemy with one quick stab then yeah, you'll slash.

>>723837517
Adding to this, I think it is plausible to add early firearms to the game. I'd treat them like this:
>VERY slow fire rate
>moderate to low accuracy, moderate range
>great damage
>ignores all or most armor (unless the armor is magical or made of magical materials)
Bows and crossbows in retrospect would have the advantage of having a much higher fire rate (specially bows), and the possibility of using special ammunition (fire arrows/bolts, magic arrows, etc.)

But everything needs to be balanced and tested to see if it's fun to play with or not.

>>723838361
Too futuristic.

>>723837757
>You
not him
>less than a hundred
yeah less than a hundred years between the 15th and 13th century, sure retard
>bombards
cannons existed since the 14th century, castles were being built until the 16th and just changed shape into forts.
>
glad you conceded on that point
>within their effective ranges
so 30 meters?
>No.
yes.
>So what.
maybe try reading what you copypasted
>low IQ abortion
no need to sign your posts here, anon.

Would gujs even make a huge difference? For large scale battles I'm sire they'd be advantagous. But most games focus on adventurers, not soldiers. You wouldn't take a musket into a Zelda dungeon.

Even if reloading was hastened from being a fantasy hero, you'd still be better off with a bow over a flintlock unless you were to carry like 5 of them.

>>723838761
Agree. This is also the reason you don't see many fantasy heroes carry around a polearm and instead swords.

>>723838021
>Even a malnourished unfit person can do a kill stab with a knife through clothes one-handed.
Not quite. Being malnourished means that you lack body weight which means you fear being too easily knocked aside. Even if you know you can kill with the strength of one hand, you fear that you will be too easily pushed out of position to do so. That is why the person in the picture is doing the pseudo shoulder slam. Absolutely doesn't need to do that, but it's written in plain sight that a scrawny malnourished people would as he does. Can kill with one hand? Doesn't matter, move like you're slamming into them, and use both hands, just in case.

>>723824685
>wizard casts non-magic projectile

>>723824685
>wizard shoots fireball
kino
>wizard shoots gun
kino

There is nothing about the existence of firearms in a fantasy setting that breaks the suspension of disbelief. Guns are real and you can either make them period appropriate or use magic to expedite their advent (asking the audience to suspend their disbelief to accept magic, aka fantasy fucking fiction).

A fatass trekking through rocky tundra for months without losing weight to reach a remote village containing a makeup palette swatch of racial representation does break suspension of disbelief because calories and genetics are real and the lazy bitch author has not used magic to bridge the gap. Like a shitload of lembas or people using dragons for air travel.

>>723837391
That's right, Might and Magic is sci-fi, set in a reality where intergalactic communications collapsed and societies across the galaxy regressed until no one could remember anything about space travel - demons are actually an invasive alien species, angels are androids with medical nanotechnology, and more than one game gives you actual laser rifles.

>>723838761
Could be useful for a one-shot thing, treat it like a consumable that deals high damage and ignores armor.

>>723824685
Beats me, anon, I think that shit is rad.

Really it just comes down to the tone of the specific fantasy setting. For some reason people act like there's one "official" fantasy setting and they have to justify any deviations from it like it's actual history.

>Muh stupid nobles in PLATE marching farmers in RAGS to death!!!!
>I would be better than them because I play PARADOX!!!!

Fucking retards without any real education: How many times do we need to teach you that no noble wanted their overworked serfs even near a battlefield? Throwing the people that produce your food at a blender is fucking retarded and no one actually did it except in the most dire, desperate circumstances.

"Peasant" soldiers weren't hungry Bob in rags with a stick. It was, rather, Robert the Freeman in padded armor, spear, shield, helmet and maybe a bow or a crossbow, tenant of the lord who trains once a month with his pals to serve effectively as light, defensive infantry. And if for some reason Robert came from a town? Even worse: He would be a much wealthier urban citizen with access to regular crossbow training, led by his own elected captain and accompanied by his fellow citizens and maybe even a score of urban knights.

Also miss me with muh nepo baby shit: For all their cruelties and virtues, the medieval nobility was literally trained since childhood for the sole purpose of warfare and leading men. They weren't flabby neckbeards who fucked maids all day: Despite his lean frame, a knight was pretty much fed, trained and conditioned since he could use his hands to kill, and he did so quite effectively. The idea that sitting on a pc can give you even the slightest approximation of how medieval warfare worked is pure retardation.

>>723838361
The 00's Zorro cartoon did something like this to get around the 'no guns' rule, despite it being set in pre-cowboy days.

>>723838761
For Goodnes sake man, protect that groin region!

early gunpowder firearms just don't mesh mechanically with videogames very well
the things that make them cool irl are very hard to represent well in a videogame. There's no real way to make reloading in a videogame fun, at least to do every fucking shot. You end up handwaving away everything that makes them unique with some magic shit or videogameisms and then you've lost the "but it's realistic to have them" impetus anyway, or they get relegated to background setpiece shit you see some NPCs use once maybe because it just isn't worth the time to design and program everything to be a player option, maybe you let the player set off a cannon or something.

>>723838914
The inconvenient truth spearfags don't want you to mention is that they're well, inconvenient. For as great as a polearm is at war, there's a reason no one EDC'd them. Even a mace or an axe, well slow on the draw compared to a sword, can still holstered around the belt. But good luck solving elaborate puzzles, swinging from chandeliers, or doing anything that requires two hands while carrying around big stick.

Honestly I always thought that the biggest reason why "people" are against guns in medieval fiction is because rangertrannies, the biggest bowtards out there, managed to gaslight everyone into believing that bows were useful and bowmen were as strong as the average actual soldier due to range.

>>723835669
Because wizards don't work like that in most sensible settings and magic is more or less rare: A magician ought be like a special form of heavy artillery, meaning a major adventage but not quite damaging enough to completely change the paradigm.

Also, for every decent wizard you can train 30 gunners.

>>723822098 (OP)
Play Tactics Ogre you coward
Cool gun units for your army that fit with the time period and are well balanced with other ranged options. They're actually kinda bad even, at least in the newest version.

>>723839121
>Consumables build
Based

>>723834672
Plate armor was around for a very long time by that point. Maybe not the very resource intensive full iron/steel plate you typically associate with medieval knights, but rigid metal armor has been in use basically since the advent of bronzeworking, at least. Did you really think they were using it only for weapons? For fuck's sake, look up a picture of a roman centurion. Plate actually predates ringmail by a long while.
>B-b-but why would they invent a LESS effective kind of armor from the same materials, huh!?
Not being rigid means any rando could wear it, and not needing to be custom fit, much like early rigid metal armor. Unlike universal plate, however, ringmail didn't need gaps in the side of it to fit around different body shapes.

Most of it is a function of time/resource expenditure, and manufacturing capacity.

>>723839790
>they're well, inconvenient
That's true. I suppose you could use it as a walking stick during travels, but the moment you have to roll around, climb, jump, swim, crawl in tight spaces and shit, it should be quite clear why smaller weapons are preferable for adventures.
But at the end of the day, a vydia is just a form of entertainment, so people aren't gonna bother with some realistic details like those.

>>723839425
>Muh stupid nobles in PLATE marching farmers in RAGS to death!!!!
It's an exaggeration to show the huge contrast in whether nobles played by the same rules as others on the battlefield, that is, dying to pay for the sins of their stupidity. Their money protected them. People who wear rags develop actual battlefield survival skills. Rich people in armor, don't. In all of history no one paid less for being stupid on the battlefield than medieval nobles, and they were consequentially the worse battlefield leaders that ever existed of all mankind.

>>723822098 (OP)
Good reference image op, thank you.

>>723840145
>But at the end of the day, a vydia is just a form of entertainment, so people aren't gonna bother with some realistic details like those.
Undeniably true. But often the crowd who really bolster on about how great bolster usually do so by pushing a false notion that swords were terrible weapons in real life, ignoring that being an impractical status symbol could only get you so far.

>>723836573
Goblin anon.....

>>723840254
Retard, no one was marching into battle in rags and medieval nobles weren't ineffective or stupid, nor was plate armor a factor in this. From where you even get your history? We have actual descriptions of pretty refined combined tactics in the Holy Land around the 3rd Crusade, the development of brutal yet effective guerilla tactics by d'Guesclin during the HYW and plenty of demonstrations of competent leadership in the centuries prior. The idea that medieval warfare was just nepo babies going at it betrays no knowledge of the actual field.

>Muh Crecy!!!!!

Anglowanking exaggerated by nationalistic propaganda, not to mention that the leaders of the english side were noblemen and knights too.

>>723835669
>why would people invent guns if they can just use bows

>>723840067
I just wondered if OP why OP felt if plate armour was a thing then guns must be too

>>723838979
>Even if you know you can kill with the strength of one hand, you fear that you will be too easily pushed out of position to do so.
If you fear that, why would you attack with your mind in disarray? He's a fool.

>>723840004
>They're actually kinda bad even, at least in the newest version.
Who cares, look at those hats. They're more stylish than the archers, so you should use them.

>>723838761
>>723838914
make then do damage based on % max health and lock then behind a class and make then have that 1 minute reload similar to magic cast time

Magic already functions the role of skirmishing in fantasy before the melee clusterfuck. It's lame and gay that magic also has no friendly fire though. People keep spamming AoE spells without thought.

>>723840702
>The idea that medieval warfare was just nepo babies
It literally fucking was, my dude. Sorry. You NEVER wanted to be march to war behind a dude who will fucking survive when 99% of his troops die. Medieval warfare is where it happened the most and therefore had worst leaders ever existed. They forced people to enlist, you know. Slavery with a fancy name. Cause the people wouldn't march with their nobles at the head if they weren't hanged for the crime of saying "you are too shit for being my leader and fuck this I'm out". Oh, such charisma they had I'm sure.

>>723822098 (OP)
Is there any game with 7's chest-braced gun in it?

>>723841119
Oh cool, I have that book
But yeah. I dunno about max health, considering there might be larger enemies so doing %max health wouldn't be appropriate, but they need to be high damage and slow.

>>723841241
>dude duty lmao
Those who don't feed their own army shall feed the armies of others.

>>723841119
>make then do damage based on % max health
Why
>1 minute reload similar to magic cast time
Seeing as a trained soldier could reload reload in about 20 seconds, giving a dedicated and potentially near-superhuman class an entire minute to reload would be just pathetic. And probably not terribly fun either.

>>723841241
>99% of his troops die
LMAO you are an utter retard: This never actually happened, not even during the famous roman defeats and even less so in medieval times. Suffice to say, the idea of marching serfs into war is hilariously wrong and not supported by the actual evidence, as most peasant militias were made of armed tenants and freemen expected to train semi-regularly and defend their own lands. Your comment on plate armor doesn't even make sense because it didn't even existed for most of the time period.

Seriously anon, from what book are you getting this information? Or is this just trolling?

>>723822098 (OP)
Plate armor was prevalent way before the introduction of guns to Europe and probably would have developed further if guns had never existed.
>>723839202
This. Fantasy can be whatever the fuck the writer wants. If some fantasy setting has people who don't have guns but use steam power then I wouldn't complain like an autist.

I love early firearms though and want them in more games. There should be games with black powder guns, matchlocks and wheel locks and the sort where the game is balanced around their powerful but inaccurate projectile and slow reloads.

>>723841901
This is plate armor.

>>723822098 (OP)
I don't understand the rejection of firearms in fantasy. MH used it pretty well for the most part and so can western games

>>723822098 (OP)
What everyone here seems to neglect to mention is that early guns were just worse than heavy crossbows which could be reloaded faster than guns and work under any condition including rain.

>>723840934
I just knew this was gonna get posted. kek

>>723838208
No it doesn’t depend on those things. Slashing is an indirect arc. This means it is slower, has less potential points of impact and has less kinetic energy.

>>723832296
We're not talking about a literal fucking glocks here retardo were talking the pipes and shit you see in ops pic. God there are so many favella monkeys on this board

>>723842130
Fair point but you know what I mean. It would have developed differently had there been no guns.

>>723842130
It's more like a brigandine.

>>723840067
>Plate actually predates ringmail by a long while.
Mostly a question of definition, which always has big caveats. But yes while maille, I assume that's what you mean instead of ringmail which is conjecture, is quite old it isn't that old in comparison.
Dendra Panoply probably has the best claim to be plate armor, in the way we think of medieval white plate.
Laminar, scale and lamellar armor are often considered a different enough to be their own thing

>>723842172
Yes, but conversly, firearms would be way more common amognst NPCs than crossbows. As they are both cheaper to produce in large numbers than a bow and easier to train than a crossbow.

>>723838372
> Slashing is what you do when you stab and miss, or get parried, or feint
Wrong. Slashing leaves you more vulnerable. It’s an open stance and requires more commitment. Thrusts are less telegraphed and easier to recover from.

>>723824207
>>723823990
>>723823646
We need to move beyond tolkien. Someone, anyone needs to best him at this point in terms of story/worldbuilding/fantasy telling because I'm tired of fags only referring to him for everything fantasy. There was some anons moaning and bitching about how they couldn't read anything other than tolkien books which is a huge skill issue because theres stuff that inspired him that came before. Tiresome really

>>723838761
irl explorers didnt use gunpowder guns because if the powder got wet you couldnt use it, and shit gets wet when youre hiking through untamed wilderness

lewis and clark used compressed air guns when they crossed america

>>723822098 (OP)
I love guns in medieval settings, especially rudimentary or expiremental designs. I dont really get the issue, I think a lot of people misunderstand is that firearms have been around since the 900s, Europe used them consistently starting in the 1200s, we had fully automatic weapons in the 1800s.

>>723842408
>easier to recover from
Into slashing. If you're not a war god single stab instakill sword master, slashy sword gonna slash. If that wasn't the case then swords would not need be sharp at all, they're just be a pointy metal rod.

>>723838361
>not a gun that shoots guns that also shoots even more guns
Never bring a knife to a gun-gun fight.

>>723842659
I wonder how Tolkien himself would feel about the current state of the fantasy genre and how so much of it still slavishly adheres to the standard he set down for no other reason than "that's how Tolkien did it".

>>723842670
To be fair, they used it as a party tool to indirectly bargain for peace.
>"yoooo check out my toy", pew pew pew pew pew
And then the natives didn't think twice about killing them and looting them because that was one hell of a cool toy and for all they know maybe every single one of those white devils had one. Very impressive diplomatic approach.

>>723841497
name ?
>>723841672
% of maximum health and no more than certain amount against elites and bosses, you can still 2 to 3 shot the average enemy

>>723842879
Most likely very conflicted.
He did want to create a british mythology like the Beowulf saga and arthurian legends which fuels stories.
And he did manage that but he lack of willingness to so something daring with it would probably really depress him.
Peak careful what you wish for.

>>723843067
>He did want to create a british mythology
English mythology. We've already got a British mythology, King Arthur.

>>723830581
>shoots through your breastplate from beyond the maximum range of any crossbow
>is actually able to function and be produced at scale with 15th century technology unlike your airgun

>>723843067
>>723843192
I'm waiting for an American mythology, with wendigo creatures and a races of Sasquatch's

>>723843192
Or that.
I tend to use those synonymously, barely differentiate between brits and english desu.

>>723843192
That's french

>>723843192
>King Arthur
>British
But the best parts are French

>>723843192
*Welsh

How would Wizards change the battlefield?

Let's say that instead of training your peasants to shoot bows or whatever you could train them to be low level wizards.
Let's use dnd rules and say you can reasonably train them up to 3rd level.
What spells would you train your wizards to use? How would you use wizards in a battle?

>>723843269
The odds of hitting someone in the breastplate beyond the maximum range of a crossbow is in the realm of below 0.1% probability. If this sells the weapon to you then you'll be doing a lot of pew pew pew before your dreams come true.

>>723842979
>2 to 3 shot the average enemy
>1 minute reload
What sort of game are you imagining where a potentional 3+ minute TTK on regular enemies is considered remotely good? I'm not even trying to be rude, this just sounds like a terribad weapon.

>>723843341
>with wendigo creatures and a races of Sasquatch's
You fuckin druggo

>>723843341
>I'm waiting for an American mythology, with wendigo creatures and a races of Sasquatch's

Wendigos are dope, especially with the way Fromsoft did Manus as one.

>>723843516
For some reason I feel l like this would come full circle and just devolve into a contest of who can better lock down the enemy so the Knights can more easily stab them with swords.

>>723843679
Given enough time and talent along with americana legends it can work. Just about 15 years to be exact

>>723843341
American mythology is just about the quest to fleece money from people.

>>723843534
First of all, you are completely retarded and have no understanding of the ranges or accuracy of the weapons you're attempting to discuss. And second, you are completely retarded and have no understanding of the way in which these weapons were used. Not even the already deeply flawed pophis perception of early firearms is as wrong as you are.

>>723843889
You're thinking of longnose mythology.

>>723822098 (OP)
> You should accept.
Ahem, what? Warhammer Fantasy has gonnes, Tunnels & Trolls also has gonnes. What D&D is "Sword & Sorcery" Low Tech Feudalism, High Magic society that operates on rule of cool. In Old School it supposed to be even more lethal, you can literally die from one hit from a rather common monster at levels 1-3. Its supposed to be "Post" calamity that fucked up the world prior it, you are supposed to be in a "Pocket of Light" civilization that doesn't have much going for it beyond decent civilization for a feudal setting and where local lords wage faction battles with other lords, your mind is corrupt by Forgotten Realms drivel which wasn't a D&D first setting it was Forgotten Realms first and 3.0 Second that influenced most of current D&D. Which is to say, its not pure. Blackmoor, Mystara and Greyhawk are the sole real D&D settings, anything past that is pastiche and fakery unless written by Gygax or or the people's lineage that were involved with those games. Otherwise, they have no authentic D&D touch to the m.

Yeah, I love pillars of eternity setting because of that.

>>723842659
Tolkien will still be the reference in a 100 years because compelling storytelling and world building like his can't simply arise from the modernist atheistic and nihilistic morass. At best you'll get some GRRM garbage once in a while, and you will be content for a while until the next fantasy product comes around and tou forget about it.

Tolkien will still be there.

>>723844138
Tell me your statistics for the % odds that a handgonne will shoot a projectile that lands square on a breastplate at maximum heavy crossbow range, assuming the handgonne is pointed as if it had perfect accuracy. It's not in the realm of below 0.1%? Share your number, don't be shy. I want to discuss this with you. Please please please gib number. I want I want I want.

>>723845103
It's not about him being there or not. It's about going beyond him and I think there might be some person out there that can deliver it

>>723845412
>I think there might be some person out there that can deliver it
>going against established tradition
That's a paddlin'

>>723845412
From the current crop of humanity? You're not getting a genre defining piece ever again, forget about it.

>>723838914
>>723839790
Yeah. I mean, who could go around with a stick? Certainly not explorers.

Newflash, retard: swords are carried horizontally relative to the body which makes them more cumbersome if they're not very short. Staves of any type are carried vertically, they actually aid in travel and can fit in tighter spaces. You're not going to be swinging from a chandelier with a sword at your hip. Go on, try it irl and see how that works for you.

>>723838717
>not him
Yes him
>yeah less than a hundred years between the 15th and 13th century, sure retard
1346 to 1411 in Europe
>castles were being built until the 16th
Wall styles had to change to accomodate for bombards. Traditional flat length designs were ineffective. Retard.
>
Yeah you're wrong as usual faggot
>
Wrong as usual FAGGOT
>yes.
No.
>modern firearms
Irrelevant.
>I'm a reddit cocksucking mutt
I know.

>>723842979
>name ?
The name of the book is 'WEAPON - A visual History of Arms and Armor', and the weapon in the picture is in the 'combination weapons page', along with some other crazy stuff, like a gun halberd, gun mace, gun war hammer, etc.

>>723846464
That halberd is pretty as fuck.

>>723822098 (OP)
This is fine but if the setting doesn't specifically state "medieval" then stop complaining about lack of guns.

>>723846068
It'd be easier to swing from a chandelier with a sword in your hip than with a spear in your hand(s). Also crawl, roll, swim, etc., but I do agree that polearm can be used as a walking stick of sorts, it's just that they always occupy at least one hand, you can't just unsheathe them like with a sword or a dagger, or even a war hammer, a mace, or an axe.

>>723845750
Mmmm given the years perhaps 15 or maybe 20 years on a single piece like LOTR. I think someone will be able to pull it off if they are passionate enough. That's alot of time for redrafting and re channeling ideas and story as well as myth making the same times that allowed tolkien to create middle earth.

>>723846068
>swords are carried horizontally relative to the body

>>723844138
You're being shy. I double-down on my challenge. Remember Crecy? Whole bunch archers doing pew pew? We use this. Let's pitch an imaginary scenario in which a handgonne user is pointing his weapon at a WHOLE squad of archers, Crecy-style, and wants to hit them in the chest or head, or just generally deliver an incapacitating blow, with his handgonne, which he robotically points as if it had perfect accuracy, aiming center of enemy formation, taking downward arc in consideration. He wants to hit them beyond maximum heavy crossbow range, a crossbow of same weight as handgonne, of less manufacture cost, of roughly same purpose in warfare.

I still say the odds of making that shot is in the realm of below 0.1%. Give me your number. Give me give me give me your number. I wanna talk with you.

>>723839610
Artists fear the historically accurate codpeice of dangerous girth

>>723822098 (OP)
Plate armor appeared at the end of the 15th century. The middle ages ended in the 15th century. There were also in between innovations that led to what we imagine as full plate. None of this interferes with me conceptualizing plate armor as a middle ages object. Are you going to make a case or just be a faggot calling out faux-hypocrisy to whine about how we should use guns to keep you happy.

>>723846616
Yeah, ain't no way that'd have any practical use, but it looks cool as a collection piece and as a concept

>>723843516
Magic missiles definitely, there's no hit roll, you just designated a target and damage happens. Volley fire of that shit would be devastating.

There are technically guns in the Arthurian myth. When Guinevere hides in the Tower of L O N D O N Mordred assaults it with 'great guns', assuming to mean cannons, which existed in Malory's time

>>723847359
Full plate armor all over, but with some damn bright red pants with no protection at all at the nethers, that's just asking to get stabbed right where it matters the most I'll tell you what.
I get that it is a difficult region to protect since covering with armor might hinder movement, but at least try to protect it some or at least don't draw attention to it if it's unprotected.

Modern fantasy has its roots in Tolkien's fantasy rather than the Medieval period. Hence asking about tax bullshit, firearms and the rise of the burgher class is irrelevant in crafting a fantasy world.

>>723822098 (OP)
>>723824685
Gary Gygax answered this question decades ago.
https://the-eye.eu/public/Books//rpg.rem.uz/Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons/Magazines/Dragon/Dragon%20Magazine%20-%20066.pdf
>Page 6
Dear Editor:
With regard to gun powder in the D&D or AD&D game systems, I wish to point out the following: The rules contain no provision for the use of such materials. In general, gun powder will not work. That is because it functions on a scientific principle, and as every adventurer knows, the fables of science and technology are sometimes found in strange areas, but the laws of magic are such that no one can possibly believe in these arcane pursuits. They never produce results.
E. Gary Gygax
Lake Geneva, Wis.

Gary Gygax believed that firearms fundamentally change the setting of D&D away from magic and into science and wargaming.

>>723832689
Thats slop and shit.

>>723846972
>It'd be easier to swing from a chandelier with a sword in your hip than with a spear in your hand(s). Also crawl, roll, swim, etc.
You're not going to do any of that with either. Or a bow/crossbow, whatever. Only a dagger or small axe/hammer is tiny enough and even those would be fairly cumbersome. Try going outside.

>>723848152
Metallurgy is more scientifically complicated than gun powder

>>723831968
>>723848235
You really need to pick up a book and learn some new words.
It's embarrassing, you are getting too old to keep talking like that.

>>723848332
No need to waste words on slop.

>>723842659
Tolkein was heavily influenced by Grimm's fairy tales so a lot of what gets attributed to him is at least a century older.
>>723843516
If we ae talking about 3rd level spells, fireball and more fireball.
If we are talking about spells a lvl 3 wizard can cast (lvl 2 spells) then shatter and maybe flaming sphere and web.

>>723848327
The D&D that Gary Gygax created included the Wish spell my guy.
Only later supplementals and settings had metallurgical rules.

>>723848479
There is no D&D where they don't use swords, axes, etc. Saying medieval guns are too scientific when they're swinging around metal weapons is stupid.

>>723824685
Ignorance. Like the name Tiffany, ignorant people think firearms are a much more recent invention than they actually are.

>>723822098 (OP)
What fantasy settings have proper medieval guns?

I know Warhammer does, but things like WoW and DnD don't have era appropriate stuff at all.

>>723835669
>Firearms were shit until the mid 19th century
Don't tell the 16th, 17th, or 18th century that, they'd disagree with you.

>>723830606
His post was an accurate description of a handgonne.

>>723848571
I'm just telling you what Gary Gygax considered D&D.
You can use guns, he did in Chainmail wargaming.
But fundamentally Gary believed gun science changes the setting.

It's pointless to debate it, just homebrew your own stuff.

>>723831964
Arquebus are more of a Renaissance thing

>>723848152
>Gary Gygax believed-
>implying you can't mix the two
Gygax is almost always wrong and didn't work on videogames.

>>723822098 (OP)
Jokes in you my medieval fantasy has planes and tanks too

>>723832364
The Renaissance was kino because of all the insane seige warfare and mercenary wars going on in Europe at the time. That and the Spaniards, Dutch, and Portugese going around seal clubbing tribals.

>>723848642
DnD 5e does have guns in the basic dungeon masters guide. pg 267. Explosives too.

>>723824685
>>wizard shoots gun
totally fine as long as it's a magic gun
if you can have enchanted swords and enchanted arrows there's no reason why you can't enchant a gun and bullets

>>723847547
Would magic missiles realistically do anything against armored opponents? Ignore the spell rules in the game and consider what this would look like in reality.
I'm imagining it's like hitting someone with an ordinary hammer. Not useless, but not particularly good either. And you only get 4 shots. Seems like an archer would be better.

>>723848779
>Gary Gygax believed-
>implying you can't mix the two
Then it will be something different.
Look, I get it, you have a guns and armor fetish, I like it, especially when it comes to ming-qing dynasty stuff, but it isn't D&D.

Gygax and Arneson defined what D&D is quite clearly, deviating from it creates something different, which is completely fine, but it isn't D&D.

>>723848885
Wasn't it the most absolute hellish warfare european period because everything was pike spam? You don't even want to engage in siege, generally speaking, it's the least desirable approach. You just want to meat grinder gangbang your pikemen against their pikemen and out-pike them.

>>723848990
5e also has combat wheelchairs go fuck yourself

>>723849110
Those aren't official content, anon, they're homebrew that got attention from the WotC social media accounts.

>>723848760
I'm just telling you why Gary Gygax was wrong.
It's pointless to deny it.

>>723848856
If they're the DaVinci tanks and planes it gets a pass

>>723849042
If we assume that magic missiles IRL would just hit targets in the chest like hammer blows and would be stopped by even cheap armor, then its actual battlefield value would probably consist of using it to activate trap mechanism with perfect timing and accuracy at long range. Like burning oil and stuff. And you'd potentially have to sacrifice animals if the target needs to be living? Gruesome.

>>723848990
I know, but its not era appropriate. They have a bunch of flint locks and wheel locks. The kind of stuff the Swedes were using under Carolus Rex, not the kind of handgonne and hand canon you would've seen in the Hussite Rebellion.

>>723845249
Always accurate at hand axe's distance.. Save vs Reflex to dodge or get incapacitated.

>>723849335
The creators get to determine what the setting is.
If Gygax never said anything, you would have an argument, but he did, guns will always be non-canon.

>>723849051
>but it isn't D&D
Anon we're on /v/ not /tg/. Whatever dnd is or isn't doesn't matter to famtasy videogames.

>>723849042
Its piercing magic combat is different ballpark. In OD&D, you couldn't partake in magical battles with regular shit, you would be mowed the fuck down.

>>723848474
I meant 3rd level wizard with 2nd level spells.
I was thinking Enlarge. Doubles the size of a creature. Cast it on knights to make giant soldiers. Use it on a slinger and his stones are now 8 times as heavy.

>>723849470
So what. His reasoning is logically inconsistent. It's objectively wrong. It's pointless to deny it.

>>723822098 (OP)
It's just a balance issue. Guns are OP and dominate every combat encounter.

A game that has guns plays like a shooter.
A game that has swords, bows, horses and armour plays like a medieval game.
A game that has swords, bows, horses, armour and guns plays like a shooter.
So if you have guns, you might as well discard everything else.

Just wait 5 years when realistic modern combat games will be full of drones and they'll be the new dominating weapon where you can't do anything except drone spam.

>>723849470
Other than license filtered off blasters from star trek/star wars light sabers that crash landed from a space ship to the place because the players enjoyed Star Wars enough that it influenced the game.

>>723849662
Just make guns similar to bows and crossbows except slower, heavier hitting and with unique stuff like grapeshot.

>>723849662
You can already do drones in GURPS following vehicle creation kit rules and with tactical combat + martial arts rules, you'll get a realistic modern future combat game.

>>723849662
>Guns are OP and dominate every combat encounter.
Do you think medieval rifles worked like machineguns?

>>723849076
>Wasn't it the most absolute hellish warfare european period because everything was pike spam?
Yes, and it was fort spam, and it was general infantry spam since for the first time in history they had the resources to feed large armies, armies who were mostly mercenaries, so they were no strangers to raping and pillaging, and unlike the knights they replaced, weren't bound by any kind of chivalry. And then there was the black death.
>You don't even want to engage in siege
The goal is to take the city as quickly and as intact as possible, that just isn't always possible. Hence the seiges.
>ou just want to meat grinder gangbang your pikemen against their pikemen and out-pike them
No. Pikes against pikes was a bad idea since both sides would suffer heavy losses. Generally it was like a game of rock paper scissor. Pikes beat cavalry, artillery beats pikes, cavalry beats artillery. Then you throw in arquebussiers and skirmishers and they tend to make things a bit more chaotic.

It was all about maneuvering to flank your opponent and catch them off guard so you could send their pike squares into disarray and route them.

>>723848152
>>723848479
>>723848571
>>723848760
>>723849335
>>723849470
>>723849647
>>723849668
>>723849809
>dnd
>gurps
Vidya only

>>723849042
You're not giving any room for counterpoint there, you can't really debate against something arbitrarily decided like that. I could just as easily say it's like being hit with a warpick.

>>723849662
Medieval guns were shit. They had good armor penetration, but not any more than a strong crossbow. They were cumbersome and unwieldy to load and fire. They had terrible accuracy, being glorified melee weapons. And worst of all, they were malfunction prone. They would misfire or fail to fire a lot, but even worse, they would explode. The problem was so bad most early handheld fire arms had a small pistol sized section of barrel at the end of a long stick so it wouldn't be close to the user if it exploded.

>>723843516
third level... that gives some lvl 1 and 2 spells.
Gotta be creative with it. Magic missile is fine and all, but you could potentially do a bunch of cool stuff other than doing direct damage:
>gust of wind to block enemy arrow volleys/protect troops/push the enemy line;
>darkness or fog cloud to block vision on a troop (they'd also probably start to trip over each other)
>silent image to mislead and confuse the enemy troops;
>mold earth to create a favorable terrain or traps in the terrain;
>message to aid in battle communication between commanders;
>web or grease to restrain enemy movement (specially cavalry);
>invisibility on an assassin, to make him sneak through the battlefield and eliminate the enemy general

There are a lot of options. I reckon realistically mages would also get some martial training and use the best armor available, since they'd be invaluable to any army. It makes sense in fantasy settings for mages to be associated with nobility.

>>723849615
>Frogmouth
Based

>>723848268
No need to get grumpy friend, I'm just saying that it's more reasonable for someone to do such movements with a smaller weapon than with a cumbersome one like a spear and other polearm, since you can't stow them away, you always need to either leave it behind somewhere, or have it in your hand, which impairs such actions significantly.

>>723850041
Well I was thinking "what does force damage look like" and thought of a hammer.
In the game it does d4+1 damage which is the same damage as a Light Hammer in the game. A War Pick does d8.
That was my reasoning.

>>723822098 (OP)
Just put it in your game. I'm sure it'll set it apart from the rest of medieval inspired slop and will probably help your game.

How medieval black powder weaponry was generally used

>bombs
Things like hand bombs to toss into a fray or petards to blast open doors. They were good in certain situation but their practical usage was limited.
>bombards
Costly and time consuming to setup but great for straight up destroying part of a castle wall with larger bombards or using smaller ones to launch projectiles into enemy ranks. Difficult to aim and the time between shots could take up to an hour iirc since you had to clean out the bombard, reset its position because it would buck and shake the foundations it was on apart, pack in the powder (barrels of it), load in the insanely heavy projectile etc.
>hand canons
Basically a small canon on a stick, these were good for defending narrow positions like in a castle or from an armored cart. You would basically just volley fire down a hallway or into a pack of people and let that metal ball bounce around causing havoc and broken bones.
>specialized artillery like organ guns
Again limited to siege defense and other similar situations where you could setup and wait to ambush some unlucky throng of victims.

It wasn't until the renaissance that more general usage black powder gear like matchlock rifles and handguns were invented. But the bombard was a complete game changer for sieges and though most people think Mongols did so well because of le horse archer memes, they were actually so effective because of their highly mobile nomadic logistics which everyone knows about but alsop because they were the first to use bombards outside of China.

>>723830971
>randomly brings up trannies and his scat fetish
What is wrong with you

>>723850682
A polearm can be short enough to strap to your back, so yeah fuck off retard "friend".

>>723850972
Good luck rolling or crawling in a hole with a 2 meters stick attached to your back, retard-kun.

>>723834312
>>723834507
He's been looking for a publisher for it for like 10+ years now. It's not gunna get made despite looking pretty good.

>>723849846
>artillery beats pikes
Yeah but the problem is that you need to reach napoleon warfare era before artillery is remotely cheap and widespread enough to be a valid counter. Thus. Pike pike pike.
>It was all about maneuvering to flank your opponent
That's the opposite no? I though it was hellish warfare because it had all the conditions which makes it so that strategy mattered the least. The ancient greeks used comically long spears that made manoeuvring crucial, the renaissance pikemen were nowhere as bad and could turn/react well enough, so it was meat grinder vs meat grinder, bigger number wins. Just pike 'em more than they pike you.

>>723851289
Having a 2m pole would literally aid you in getting out of a hole you brain dead faggot

My game my rules.
No guns.

No, you will not push industrial revolution into the setting.

>>723822098 (OP)
I look like and say and put slow matches to this

>>723851494
This is /v/ you stupid faggot

>>723851567
My mistake, could swear I was on tg, that's usually where this thread shows up

>>723851365
NTA but most battles were sieges, field battles were typically avoided because losses were less predictable. And artillery was very, very commonly used in that time period. Siege defeses were starforts which were designed to maximize artillery defense and kill zones. In field battles the point was to bring your musketeers as close to their effective range as possible so they could deliver a killer volley first, the pikemen and swordsmen were there to ward off cavalry while the musketeers reloaded. It was definitely about outmaneuvering your opponents. Field artillery did see usage but they weren't nearly as mobile as later Napoleonic developments. Pike and shot is very, very similar to Napoleonic and can be considered to be a proto-type with some key technological and strategic differences.

>>723851494
The industrial revolution you're referring to was nearly half a millennium after the introduction of firearms.

>>723851670
It's ok anon, we can bust out the puckee21 and pretend we're home.

>>723850005
GURPS was basis for Fallout.

>>723850837
See now that's a lot more reasoning than "ignore the spell rules". It would still be hell for less than heavily armoured troops since there's no way for the heavy units to screen them, once they're in range then they're taking that hit.

>>723851830
Give a gunfag a gun and let them play artificer they'll get it done in a year max.

>>723852051
Give a wizard the ability to create fire from nothing and they'll get it done in two years max.

>>723824685
It can be done but it has to be done in an extra subversive and retarded way to keep the disbelief.

Guns would be a powerful mundane weapon, but as soon as you start getting enchanted stuff they'd drop off hard. Any gunfag trying to cope and make magic guns would just wind up realising the gun part winds up being entirely decorative.

>>723852254
Guns are more magically efficient. Why create an entire fireball when you can just create a spark to launch a bullet?

>>723824207
>tolkien did!
>cites movies
is tolkien an immortal time traveler now? do you have his phone number anon?

>>723852101
You're trying to make a joke but my post was serious. If you let them, the typical gunfag will 100% ruin your setting because they think they are so clever for their character to come up with inventions that other people in history took centuries to develop. They just can't help themselves, they beg for a blackpowder firearm soon they'll be making automatic guns and forcing more and more technological stuff until the fantasy is completely ruined and unrecognizable.

>>723822098 (OP)
Huh? But it's already in medieval fantasy? Because they were in the Renaissance?

>>723850924
>most people think Mongols did so well because of le horse archer memes, they were actually so effective because of their highly mobile nomadic logistics which everyone knows about but alsop because they were the first to use bombards outside of China.
I'm ready to believe that some aspect of the mongolian horse archer is historically exaggerated, the majority of mongolians probably either rode OR shot like mortal men rather than being super ninjas who multi tasked these two things at once while yawning. Probably had normal skill levels of doing one or other, yeah. BUT. I have a hard time believing that assaulting fortified locations is what they were GOOD at. Did they drag around big boom boom and got some success? Yeah sure. In rare exceptional cases I bet. Was sieging what Mongolians were GOOD at compared other armies? Those nomad horse fuckers? Hard time swallowing that.

>>723852337
My post was serious too if we're doing half-assed understandings of how technology evolved.

>>723852410
Just look at the siege of Baghdad. Most castle sieges in medieval history could take MONTHS. It took two weeks. The Mongols fucked dude.

>>723852457
All spellcasters can make fire out of nothing and that is literally never a problem. Either no game or idiot, choose.

>>723852410
That's because you think they were literally just a ragtag group of horse riders just going around like bikers on a highway marauding from place to place.

>>723852295
Because the bullet is limited by the speed generated by exploding black powder, once billy barbarian pries some dragon scales off and makes a new vest it'll never penetrate. If you wind up trying to use magic to propel the projectile instead then the gun is just for show and you might as well just carry darts around to magically throw

>>723852529
You literally need to play with more groups. Wizards always end up creating le fantasy equivalents to modern technology.

>>723851916
GURPS for Fallout was scrapped because Steve Jackson said no.

>>723852572
Just use a dragon scale bullet or special alchemical magical powder, retard. You see it's fools like you with limited imaginations who apply fantasy to one mundane thing (armor) but then can't wrap your head around applying it to another mundane thing (gun).

>>723843341
Too bad; all the myths you've got are Paul Bunyan, Johnny Appleseed, and the idea of interracial friendship.

>>723852609
That sounds awful. Most wizard players I experienced wanted their wizard tower, maybe open a magic academy, and that's it. Never experienced anything like that. Care to share some stories?

>>723852518
But how many Baghdad-like situation did they get into? Because if they had one Baghdad siege for every 100 open field skirmish, that makes it the 1% situation situation that they fucking hate and want to avoid, but still have the tools for, if absolutely forced to.

>>723852670
You're still gonna get more use out of a bow made of bullshit materials than the same made into a gun because one gets stronger as your character gets more retard strength to draw the god bow and the other you're stuck with boom make zoom.

>>723852829
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sieges_involving_the_Mongol_Empire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Battles_involving_the_Mongol_Empire
35 sieges vs 36 general battles

>>723852930
Except bows have limited poundage so again you're applying fantasy logic to one thing and not the other. Low IQ.

>>723852410
They had enslaved and mercenary siege engineers to do the siege engineering for them but for some reason that I don't remember they took while cities but sometimes failed to crack no names fortresses in Eastern Europe

>>723852829
Okay look at a map of the Mongol Empire real quick. Do you think they won all of that through open field battles only if the enemies could just hide in their giant fortress strongholds (like Baghdad was)?
They fucked dude. Didn't matter where. Unless storms got in the way.

>>723843361
Wow look a retard

>>723852764
American monster muthology is just "some spooky feller ate some cattle I think, I'm gonna shoot him", you need to import some of the freaky European shit where they're following esoteric rules to keep the little singing gnomes happy or they'll cut off all your fingers to make a soup.

>>723842659
Good fucking luck with that. Brandon Sanderson had the chance to rise to that but he turned out to be a sellout hack and added a tranny in his book and broke his own lore.
R. A. Salvatore? Wrote drow niggers' rape goddess as misunderstood because muh inclusivity.

>>723853027
it's kinda weird to think how relatively few battles actually happened to forge an empire, in strategy vidya, like Total War for example you fight more than that

>>723848152
>away from magic and into science and wargaming.

While I respect his obvious intention of preserving a fantasy world like Tolkien did with the Arthurian/Norse inspirations of LotR, I don't think having the basic embryonic stages of firearms (which in Medieval periods usually boiled down to very occasional simple bangstick-alternatives to spears, crossbows and catapults until the 15th century) is going to violate a rule that even sword metalsmithing and building masonry already would by his own logic. Non-magical characters are still going to need to improvise, and it's not like dungeon masters have to mandatorily keep history flowing beyond the period its set in and start replacing standard equipment.

>>723853027
I'm not sure what's going on here but I don't think the mongol empire had 36 battles. It existed for roughly a century (80+ years) and they took over Asia. Something ain't right. Maybe they conflate something like 12 skirmish to take over a region into a single campaign, single battle?

>>723853098
When I look at that map what I see is same as everyone else: they immediately stopped fucking when they started hitting european fortresses. Which is a well known thing that people like to point out. If their thing was blasting open fortified cities, why is it exactly that they said "fuck this shit we're going home" when they hit their paradise comfy zone of forts everywhere? Forgot the guns? Another anon said that when they did big sieges they enslaved local engineers. That's reasonable explanation no?

>>723853523
Russia had fortresses, Poland had fortresses, both got fucked. They annihilated them. The further you stretch your empire the less you can conquer. The idea that they couldn't conquer further because their arrows were bouncing off the stone walls is the retarded shit that you hear parroted which just isn't true.
The last siege in Hungary resulted in the local populace destroying their city and fleeing before the Mongols could loot and enslave people. I think it's a fair assumption that the Mongols decided it wouldn't be worth it if every major siege ended up like that.

>>723853523
The Mongols withdrew because of succession for their empire between princes and they entered a period of civil war for the rest of the 13th century. They made subsequent campaigns into central Asia and Europe but their were never as unified again.

>>723853354
You're conflating the Mongol Empire with later incarnations after their internal succession wars.

>>723853816
They lost steam near Poland and Germany and even got their asses handed to them a few times, but then big boss mongol died and they all went back home for the succession party and kind of forgot about pushing further West.

>>723853816
Scorched earth tactic sucks but it happens once in Europe and they pull a complete stop on planetary conquest? Seems like a stretch. I agree that they did achieve impressive sieges, can't deny, credits is due, but my impression is that it was due to local contextual advantages that wasn't the norm to their army, in other words, grabbing nearby big guns and the people who know how to use them. If it's a meme that they stopped because their arrows bounced off stones then where did their big guns go? Seems to me they didn't always carry them in their backpocket like it was their thing.

>>723854064
>but my impression is that it was due to local contextual advantages that wasn't the norm to their army
Your impression is bullshit, historically speaking. I think we've suffered your willing ignorance long enough.

>>723853179
Wendigo
Deerwoman
Skinwalkers
Sasquatch
Moth man
Thunderbird
Horned serpent

There's more. You kinda have to look at native myth for a lot of it but there are people to this very day that will tell you not to follow voices in the desert at night.
I've had friends genuinely insist on leaving an area because they heard an owl.

>>723854129
No my impression is because that another anon >723853074 provided the very reasonable explanation for why some of their sieges were exceptional but were not the normal behavior of the Mongolian army and not a single person in this thread challenged their claim. They lied to me? Please challenge it.

>>723854064
>grabbing nearby big guns and the people who know how to use them
Yeah, which is what the original poster that brought it up was saying.
Not sure what you're debating at this point, do you disagree that Mongols were one of the first to use cannons in a highly effective way in sieges throughout the Middle East and Europe, and later on everybody else adopted the fuck out of that shit because it worked?
And later the Hussites started blasting people on the field and eventually you get the development of field cannons and so on. To say that also wouldn't be the Hussites thing when they were the only ones doing it and seeing major success with it is silly.
Also how it would be completely based upon local siege engineers they enslaved is a bizarre claim when you have the same tactics being used in Europe, Middle East, and China. Maybe initially in their conquest of Persia that was the case then it fanned out to the rest of their armies? Either way, it became the norm for them.

>>723854294
>but were not the normal behavior of the Mongolian army
i.e. you're literally just making shit up because your ignorant worldview is being challenged and still trying to pretend that you're reasonable
God you're such a faggot

>>723854294
Some people worship the historical mongoloid as an infallible war machine because of their small yellow penis inferiority complex

NOOO THEY WON BECAUSE THEY RODE IN CIRCLES AND SHOT SHORT BOW ARROWS AT PLATE ARMOR WHILE THE BENNY HILL THEME PLAYED ON REPEAT

>>723854435
No, I asked a question the other anon said "oh yes those sieges were good but it was not the normal behavior because xyz" and no one challenged it. I didn't make that post. They lied to me? Say they lied.

>>723852930
>armor piercing up to a threshold
>knockback
>enchant for elemental damage; etc
>different bullets with fantasy metals/materials for different effects
i could keep going but you get the point

>>723854606
It's funny how people, like you, have a complete mental shutdown and try to clutch onto insane copes when their worldview about something is shattered.

>>723854756
I'm not kidding, just say they lied, that's it? Yes? I want to consider every point of view but the more you hesitate you call that poster a liar the more I'm just thinking that this fucker is right >>723854535 and that's real fuckin weird.

>>723854852
Hey you fuckin weird and gay

>>723854606
That poster was giving you a reason why they had incorporated siege techniques. He never said it wasn't normal behavior, where the fuck did you get that from?

>>723853139
You're looking at a mirror.
Look, your mouth breathing even fogged it up.

>>723853765
A lot of games from the 90's and 2000's liked to mixed tech and magic.
Shame they barely do that now.

>>723854995
I consider it perfectly normal and expected that a nomadic army will grab everything they can while on the run, and therefore will grab local siege advantage to crack though fortified cities, and that is adequate explanation why they don't have actually have that advantage by default at all time, big cannons are cool but a big too heavy to drag across continents, and thus, "they had a few sieges that went very well" does not mean that cracking cities is what mongolians are generally good at. This is my last reply I don't care, I have all the info, thanks confirming it was locally acquired siege advantage. Dunno why drama. Yes, I think mongols are cool.

>>723855524
Genuinely what is wrong with you? Why are you digging in so hard on something you don't know about? You came into this knowing you're ignorant. You have no info, you're asking anonymous fucks on 4chan instead of reading something lmao.
You're wrong and you know you're wrong, that's why you're being so pissy.

>>723855682
Literally seething

last reply btw

>>723855171
Gaming ended up having conventions that investors don't like moving from.

>>723846435
Not everybody you argue with is the same person, retard.
>>
>NUH UH
nice "arguments"
Stay wrong and brown

>>723822098 (OP)
I like plate armor in my fantasy
I don’t like guns in my fantasy
Simple as.
You don’t need a better reason than you like or dislike the aesthetic

>>723858785
Oh and read the text you copypaste from next time lmao

I just read Grave Empire we need mor Colonial era fantasy.

>>723837315
Only if they do the Wizards ending.

i wish handcannoneers would be buffed in aoe2. i love early gunpowder units.

>>723859009
full plate armor and matchlock belong to the same aesthetic

>>723853074
Hungary?

>>723822098 (OP)
Nothing wrong with creating a fantasy game switch fire arms you just have to justify they existing.