Thread 724498201

It was kino though. You DID find the second bench leading up to him, right? You didn't bash your head against a wall for hours on end, right?

>>724498201 (OP)
Filtered by a frog

>>724498201 (OP)
It's kind of crazy that the moment a developer makes "le hard game" you just aren't allowed to criticize any aspect of it under any circumstances

>>724498201 (OP)
If it came out 20 years ago you fags would be calling it kino.

>>724498201 (OP)
I watched the OP video out of curiosity, and I disagree with it. The only thing that he's correct regarding is that Groal and Bilewater are intended to be memorable, but his argument as to why is wrong.

tl;dr nothing in Bilewater is genuinely threatening, except perhaps the roach larvae who act like Cheep Cheeps. The entire area is designed to frustrate the player into tying their own noose. The Stilkin are annoying, but as soon as you understand that they're environmental hazards - not enemies - they're easy to avoid. Both varieties of bilebug are more basic than enemies from the first areas of the game, with their only vaguely threatening characteristic being detonating on death. The fact that the flying bilebugs respawn is actually a boon, as are the giant, flying roaches, because they're an infinite source of silk to cure yourself of maggots; maggots which don't deal any damage, and don't even drain your silk reserves rapidly. But the constant threat of the maggots, and the bilebugs, and the Stilkin puts you on edge until you effectively kill yourself, which primes you to kill yourself again.
Groal's fight is the embodiment of all of Bilewater. He has no threatening attacks, he just summons wave after wave of minor nuisances that trick you into giving into anxiety. You can either take it slow, dodge all these enemies you already know how to dodge, and heal up if you make a mistake; or you can call his bluff and hide in the maggots. Groal is just an extension of Bilewater's broader design, which isn't some cynical attempt to create a "that boss" for people to talk about.

>>724498201 (OP)
"Supposed to be challenging" =/= "supposed to be bad"
All replies to this post will be people insisting it wasn't actually challenging and was just annoying, to excuse why they had to take a dozen tries to beat it.

The only thing I have problems with is how the bench is unnecessarily tucked away.

>>724499910
Good analysis.

It's interesting that just going into the maggot water just makes Groal completely shuts down. Two of his attacks simply can't hit you at all in the water (the succ and the soul) and the third (the spitballs) are easy to dodge. His only source of damage at that point is getting free contact damage from hovering back and forth until he dives

>>724499589
Your "criticism" is "wah wah I'm bad and I should be able to beat the whole game on my first try". There is one (1) bad game design decision in the entire of bilewater, and that's having the fake bench not drop you down to a real bench.

>>724498201 (OP)
you did
>jump in the "Bilewater™", right?
>electrify the water, right?
>get sucked inside for free hits, right?
>throw the bomb inside his mouth, right?
>explore for Wreath of Purity, right?
>use reaper, right?

>>724500471
Nah fuck that. Bilewater is not fun. That is the problem. The satisfaction you get when you finish Bilewater is nice. But Bilewater itself isn't a fun area to explore. And if it isn't fun, why bother?

>>724500087
IT. INSISTS. UPON. ITSELF

>>724498201 (OP)
Kino. The boss is pretty easy, which makes sense since it's at the end of a long run/gauntlet.
>>724499910
trve

>>724500626
It is fun, generally. The only room that's not an interesting challenge is the room with the maggots that jump out of the water, at least given that it dead ends.

>>724500087
It's insane, this board is just filled with god gamers. You beat Bilewater on your first try, when the Elden Ring DLC came out everyone here was saying they beat Consort Radahn on their first try as well.

>>724499268
he's not a frog, neither are the Greymoor craws actual birds. Every living creature in this game is a bug except for Granny Silk and her two children. Oh, and the Mushroom guy I guess

>>724500146
Yeah, the fake bench trap should have dropped you down to a real bench, losing some progress but unlocking a checkpoint. It would still be a long way from the boss and the secret bench but much more reasonable than climbing all the way from the bell way bench

>>724498201 (OP)
I third or fourth tried Groal and I didn't see any issues with it.
What about it is meant to be bad? Bilewater is fun to parkour through, its enemies are fun to chase and bounce off of, and the whole region has very nice music.
And the Groal fight and is very fun in itself, with the arena having two tiers of verticality, and pits that will curse you yet not deal damage to you directly.

>>724498201 (OP)
I've cleared the entirety of act 2 for 100% except for the 2nd half of bilgewater and all of the putrified ducts. i think im very close to this boss. you jelly?

>>724500737
Nah, it's not fun. That's why the overwhelming consensus from people that discuss this game say that Bilewater isn't fun.

>>724500802
Plus the Mount Fay bird

>>724500862
The maggot status effect is frustrating, especially given that it's instant and there's no grace period (unlike fire and frost which take time to build up). That said the enemies in the area are not all that challenging so the level isn't overly hard. In fact the hardest part of bilewater is the climb up from sinner's road.

>>724500947
why is it not fun? i think if you would be really honest, it wasn't fun for you because it punished your mistakes and that made you frustrated. you should've been better, and then you did get better.

>>724500947
Nah, there's just a minority of whiny retards, the same kinds of fags that cried about margit in 2022

>>724498201 (OP)
I hate this wave of double handed, pretentious youtube titles.
>A flawed masterpiece
>This thing is shit, and this is why I love it
>Why this thing was designed to be bad and why it's genius
Give the devs you supposedly like some fucking credit, man. The boss is not fucking bad...

>>724500146
>>724500809
I would've put a rest point over by Shakra's mentor, would make sense for players who did that first before they beat Groal since Groal is supposed to be the last boss you beat to unlock act 3.

>>724499910
/thread

>>724501184
Yeah the only bad boss is the lame void chimera thing in the steel soul content

>>724500802
The whole "insect" theme isn't very consistent anon. The crow-bugs are evocative of corvids and are a clear reference to them with wings and beaks and all.
The frog-bugs in the swamp are the same.

They're way more akin to fantasy-beasts than actul insects. Most """bugs""" don't even have 6 limbs. It's just a lose aesthetic at best.

It's a damn shame that games aren't allowed to simply be hard anymore.

>>724499910
I recently saw a video where a guy just purposely gets eaten by the frog every time to get free hits in from the struggle animation. He evaded all other attacks and used the improved heal charm so he always came out with more HP than he lost and then just played passive until the frog started vaccuuming again.

Pretty neat.

>>724499910
Finally someone understands

>>724498201 (OP)
He's not even bad. People are just giant pussies. To the extent that TC now caves and nerfed his zone AGAIN, even though it's supposed to be a diseased, tribal territory sustained only through sheer HATE and spite

>>724500802
autism
>>724501560
autism

>>724501827
>normies call it the vore strat

>>724500947
Bilewater is fun though?

>>724498201 (OP)
you can tell who use the arch*tect crest and things like the sw*rm fly tool when people say this boss wasn't bad.
any boss that has its pathing as its most dangerous attack is objectively a giant fucking turd of design
>its le bad on le purpose
i guess that makes joker 2 the best movie of all time by that logic

>>724498201 (OP)
I beat him second try. I don't understand why bilewater filters so many people

>>724502019
>any boss that has its pathing as its most dangerous attack is objectively a giant fucking turd of design
Hello contact damage schizo

>>724501894
To be fair, the Multibinder changes makes sense intuitively since it's supposed to be two consecutive binds, and getting maggots still means the total heal is only 2 masks since the first bind clears the maggots.

>>724500947
Its fucking hilarious. The plaques that read "take their shells, take ALL from them" "our hate is eternal" and "let HATE sustain you" while Groal does a small roar while holding his tiny arms in a victory pose every time you die

Its great

>>724498201 (OP)
the corpserun was worse than both the gauntlet and the boss combined. No, I didn't miss any bench.

>>724502158
Its caving to all the pussies. What, you want to make the zone centered around spite, hate and desiring, accepting and thriving in cesspool muckwater living a fun and pleasant, maybe even brisk experience?

It only serves to bring everyone down to the level of living breathing npc zogslop enjoyers

>>724501894
>To the extent that TC now caves and nerfed his zone AGAIN
Lmao I'm so glad I got to beat a lot of these bosses pre nerf. What did they do?

>>724502109
>tool users actually thinking they "beat" anything

>>724500087
It isn't challenging though. What is challenging about an enemy that has exactly 4 moves, but has so much inflated health you see each of those 4 moves 30 times? What is challenging about 2 contact damage, hell 2 damage on everything, when the player's health could just be halved and left an odd number of masks, damage set to 1 mask, then make the heal only heal 2 masks and get the exact same effect? You know why, because then it would be obvious what TC has done: engaged in the old meme artificial difficulty. They couldn't think of a way to actually make it challenging, so just up the numbers.

But I don't even care about the bosses, they are easy. I care about the world, and it just sucks to explore. No rewards would be fine if the world itself was actually interesting to explore, but it is like TC knew that if they actually made the world fun to move around in and explore it wouldn't take 15+ hours to beat the game. Every room is just filled with shitty annoyances to halt all player movement, even to the point that some rooms even have enemies that randomly change their positions so you can't even just memorize where they are so you can quickly dash through and skip everything.

Shit, Bilewater is one of the few zones that doesn't feel like absolute ass from always slowing the player down because at least it fits thematically. It's still not fun, because despite all the new movement options and Hornet supposedly being more nimble, the platforming feels like slow shit.

>>724502339
Wreath now lasts even longer. Multibind now heals through maggots. See>>724502158

Which game do you consider to have the better plot?
Hollow Knight or Silksong?

>>724502475
What plot?

>>724502413
Groal has a small hp pool, a large frame and simply tanks all your hits.

First Sinner has DOUBLE his hp and teleports constantly. You can barely get two hits in safely.

Groal just lets you unload your entire tool arsenal into him from the word go
What's the fucking complaint here? You should have 2 nail upgrades at the very least when coming here. You should have upgraded, high damage tools.

If you can't deal a measly 650 health, on THIS target, you're genuinely a troglodyte.

>>724502671
>upgrades
you didn't beat the game

>>724502475
Basic premise of SilkSong is straight up rip off of Blasphemous. Follow the pilgrimage to get up to the cathedral to kill god. A guardian fights you at the gate of the cathedral before you get in. First half of the game : pilgramage, second half: the cathedral.

>>724500990
That's a moth.

>>724502671
650 HP is a lot for a Wanderer nail only (no nail art) playthrough

>no you see it supposed to be shit, and that's a good thing
man, the gymnastics silkfags will go to justify this shit

>>724503118
No it's not.
>>724502958
Here's your (You).

>>724503073
A false god, clearly. GMS is so craven, so utterly devoid of any qualities which cause worship, only inwardly focused and carrying deep narcissistic ego wounds.

Literally the worst singular person in the entire franchise. Deserves death and ruin to all she cherishes.

>>724502475
HK was too long ago so I dont remember much.

>>724502371
I never used any tools, didn't need them. I beat the game using reaper crest only

>>724503073
The basic premise of Silksong predates Blasphemous. Also going on a divine pilgrimage to understand the spiritual nature of the world and then meet god is a story that's at least centuries old.

>>724498201 (OP)
It really is supposed tto be shit.
The entire area is the real life equivalent of a nuclear wasteland with cannibals living in it.

I've finally gotten around to playing the game, I don't feel like I'm having any huge difficulties but I do have the latest updates, just how much did they nerf things?

>>724498201 (OP)
Yeah, Bilewater was my favorite part BECAUSE it's stressful, it's a slow burn, but once you manage to beat it it's so satisfying. It's not hard, all enemies are pretty slow, except for the Stilskins who are rare, and respawn, so you're meant to abuse them for silk, I don't think I died once because how do you die to area 1 enemies, but the constant threat of seeing you getting slowly chipped down until you manage to find those floating mushroom guys and abuse them was cool.
For Groal, took me a couple tries, but when I figured you can just the hookshot to go over the seemingly forced maggot water it was all water under the bridge, there's also enough free silk right before the arena in case you still arrived without de-worming. Squidward spear dudes were funny.

>>724502475
I like Silksongs Characters more, but the core story with Hollowknight is better once you actually dig into the lore enough to know what's going on with the backstory. The relationship between the Pale King and the Hollow Knight us more interesting and invokes more emotion than Lace abd GMS.

We needed more discarded remnants like Phantom for Lace to find and reflect on and to see more lore of Lace going from Faithful Daughter and Knight, towards becoming more bitter towards her mom.

>>724503734
A couple early bosses were tweaked, they removed a couple enemies on specific runbacks, they fixed a bug that caused double environmental damage from some hazards (but this actually was a bug) and buffed a couple tools to be more useful.
They changed less than most people think, if you're not having any huge difficulties now then you wouldn't have before.

>>724498201 (OP)
>runback is a nothing burger
>free maggot clear in the top room
>ads are pogo check
>can cheese with tools
Git
Gud

>>724500737
>>724502158
Yeah I was actually surprised when I tried to use the Multibinder early on and it didn't clear the maggots while healing me

>>724503734
The huge one is spikes used to do 2 masks. The rests are Act 1 shits nobody care about
>Moss mother (lol)
>Graymoor bird, 2 masks projectile (optional)
>Sister splinter's add doing 2 masks (die in a single silk spear, lol)
>"score"
>some mob placements (actual steelsoul nerf)

>>724502475
Hollow Knight's for sure. It's interesting and fun to piece together, and the motivations of each character makes complete sense.

Silksong's plot is way too convoluted and at time self-contradictory
>Lace is mad that Silk ordered for Hornet to be brought to Pharloom, even though Silk directly tries to kill Hornet through pretty much EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in the game
>It's never explained what Silk wants with all these Weavers
>It's never explained why Silk wakes up right when we challenge her

>>724502158
Yeah, I like the Multibinder not because it was needed or wanted a nerf to the area, but because it's cool thematically and more intuitive, so it'd reward people who get an idea and experiment with it.

>>724498201 (OP)
Yes, it's supposed to suck and be annoying. Nothing wrong with having that from time to time. I would be ok with having all of Sinners' Road through Bilewater as is in the game.
My problem is: The game has too much sucky annoying maps/bosses. It becomes a chore cause you just know that when you finally defeat this shitty boss then you won't get any relevant reward and the next boss will probably suck as much. Then what's the point?
God, Team Cherry fucked up so badly.

I gotta be honest, I don't remember anything about HK's story other than the king's apparent obsession with buzzsaws. I don't mind that Dark Soul's minimalist Zanzibart... style story telling, but the end result is I enjoy the atmosphere but have no god damn idea what's actually happening.

>>724499589
Cause youre dumbfuck shitters who don't understand game mechanics. Your opinion is like a vegetarian complaining to the waiter the steak is bloody.

Maybe one day every popular game will be made to baby cuckold gamer dads, that day isnt here yet, go play your action roguelites.

>>724502475
Hollow Knight
The plot is more straightforward and explained better in far less dialogue

>>724499589
But it isn't a hard game, neuropathed boomer

>>724505054
>even though Silk directly tries to kill Hornet through pretty much EVERY SINGLE ENEMY in the game
GMS' control over the Haunting is more a vague jumble of shared memories, not Harbinger assuming direct control. Pavo explains what it's like after you free Bellhart.

>>724505412
Don't you mean soitendo bingbing wahoos?

I beat groal first try
Was actually completely underwhelmed
both savage beastflys took me 4-5 attempts each
the only bosses that took me+10 tries were Karmelita, Seth, Lost Lace, Last Judge(learning beast crest), and Lugoli(sequence break with Beast crest+softlock glitches)
high halls gank squad also took me two tries because I mistakenly thought the first big nigga was the last wave

>>724505546
Considering there's several points in the game where you hear Silk roars, then threads shoot down from above and literally raise up enemies all around you, I'm inclined to think she can be a little more hands on.

>>724499910
this literally boils down to
>its shit on purpose!

an area thats purposefully challenging, frustrating even, so that its memorable is kino. bilewater and groal arent that. theyre just another example of the timewasting bullshit silksong employs to trick you into thinking its hard so that midwits will die on the hill defending it. groal is just another shitty boss who does most of his damage through hitbox jank and adds, with a runback that serves no purpose other than wasting your time.
inb4
>git gud
picrel

the game is a 6.5/10 at best and everyone here still committing to the meme of sucking it off needs to go the fuck back

you fucking people really will just play, watch, and argue about anything that your masters stick in front of your noses, huh? god i wish i had gone into marketing. why the fuck did i ever think ethics and morals were important?

>>724505509
>The plot is more straightforward
Now you're just lying

>>724505612
I don't get how you guys are so good at games. It's the same with Elden Ring discussions here. Everyone beats every boss, even the ridiculously hard ones like Malenia, in under 5 attempts meanwhile I can take 30+ attempts on some bosses

>>724506009
Your impotence is noted.

>>724506186
The plot of the game itself is, it's the backstory and lore that's more complicated. SS's plot is more complex simply because there's more characters involved with more motivations.

>>724506293
I personally am not good at games like this, including Silksong, a lot of bosses took me over a dozen tries each. I can simply recognize what bosses and areas are supposed to be more challenging and want me to fish for more tools and upgrades first instead of banging my head against the wall.

>>724505327
By sucky bosses you mean sometimes they attack you and you have to press jump and you find that frustratingly difficult.

>>724498201 (OP)
>the gauntlet enemies can't hurt you if you pogo them
>the boss can't either
Literally just harpoon to him and pogo him over and over
Sometimes you'll get hit by his shitty diving animation, shit happens
But the fight isn't that hard

>>724506186
But it IS.
>MC is drawn to Hallownest by the cries of the Hollow Knight
>Infection is leaking out
>Find the dreamers to break the seal of the Hollow Knight
>Defeat him to re-seal the infection
As simple as it gets
In SIlksong we don't even know how or why Hornet was even captured for a good chunk of the game

>>724503073
>>724503410
Irony is that Blasphemous was criticized for that since the entire game the Penitent One was shown legitimately religious only to end with the DLC plotline with godslaying.
Blasphemous 2 fixed that by doubling down the Gnosticism approach and establishing a (possibly) good deity whose power weakened as people prayed to the wrong one which retroactively justifies a lot of his actions.

Not sure if the devs actually planned that all along or realized the mess they wrote when they implemented the DLCs.

>>724507035
I still don't know why desu
Can't be for her silk because there's already plenty to go around
Can't be to be sacrificed because otherwise Lace wouldn't get mad and Silk has no trouble waking up anyway
Can't be to be mommy's new favourite because she keeps trying to kill her

>>724507485
>Can't be for her silk because there's already plenty to go around
Almost all of it is recycled dregs, there's very little fresh silk coming from the pilgrim grinder.

>>724498201 (OP)
is there a closer bench? I literally just got to this dude and am guessing the real bench is unlocked after the boss or above where the fake one was which is probably both.

>>724498201 (OP)
>No no no you are just a shitter...you see it becomes easier to like after you get broken and fucked in the ass. The whole game is an awesome experience after you get conditioned into liking it by being made fun of for 50 hours.
This is the future of metroidvanias. You are seeing the actual moment when developers found the thing with which to take revenge on players for making fun of them all these years and the funniest shit is the fact that there are actual retards who will defend them while being made fun of by devs

>>724507485
It's because she's half Weaver

>>724499910
smort

>>724507741
There is a real bench in Bilewater before Groal. It's still not an easy runback but it's far less brutal. Give me a few minutes

>>724507741
In one of the rooms full of traps, there's a breakable wall in one of the pits that you probably think you should avoid. It's the same room that has the flea behind the hidden passage, if you found it.

>>724499910
the first thing I thought when I ran into him was
>you merely adopted the goo I was born in it
the little mothflap guys are more dangerous than the bosses I've fought.

>>724506009
why is it so hard for you to accept that some people are just better than you and want more out of things than the absolute bare minimum?
are you really so stupid?

>>724506449
oh, so you're a coward who runs from a nice challenge and plays games on easy mode

>>724506349
>SS's plot is more complex
lol
>hornet gets kidnapped
>she goes after her kidnapper
it's extremely simple and it's the backstory where it becomes complicated

>>724506009
out of everything in the world you could apply this too you're gonna apply this to silksong? lol

>>724508442
>get kidnapped
>get free
>lmao might as well go to meet the kidnapper anyways
See why it doesn't make much sense?

>>724508929
>states verbatim that she can't leave because whoever caught her would never stop pursuing her and that she has to deal with them if she wants to be free when you try to leave Pharloom
Do you see why you're retarded?

>>724507741
Here you go bro. There's a breakable wall you can get past

>>724508929
Are you retarded or do you really think it makes more sense for her to get kidnapped and then just go
>wow that sucked, guess I'll completely ignore that and go somewhere else

>>724508369
>oh, so you're a coward who runs from a nice challenge and plays games on easy mode
And I was still able to 100% Steel Soul legit and unmodded, eventually, so that obviously means Silksong isn't actually that hard a game and all the complaints are whining.

>>724508929
>be home
>get kidnapped
>get free
>go back home without doing anything about it
sounds very smart

in addition at the start she doesn't know how to get back home since she fell down a huge pit in a place she dont know so she'd be forced to explore a bit even if all she wanted to do was leave

>>724508929
I just want to add to >>724509186 and >>724509232 because both are correct. It would've been out of character for Hornet to just fuck off the moment she got free. By the time you can reach the exit at Blasted Steps, Hornet has seen The Haunting first hand and knows it's a Higher Being, possibly even a Pale Being, doing it. Hornet is pragmatic but she would never, EVER, just allow suffering to continue if she has the ability to stop it. It's why she refuses to leave even in Act 3. She takes full responsibility for Pharloom's welfare even when she doesn't really have to.

>>724506186
>>724508442
Silksong obfuscates everything we see in game. They also riddle the place with actually meaningless lore dumps about irrelevant shit that happened centuries ago, not immediately or even closely related to the plot.

The bell function, not immediately apparent what they do, why we need to ring them
Is the bad guy asleep, awake? What does even sleep mean when they can plot kidnappings while "sleeping".

the way "the haunting" works is not treated cohesively by the game itself.
Is everyone haunted, or just a few? Its just an excuse to have enemies to fight.

Having a talking mc unironically made the game less legible, because they crutch hard on vague exposition instead of showing these things, the history of the place through visuals and gameplay.

Why am I ringing bells? Do the bells do anything? No they don't it's just like a thing for pilgrims? Then why the big presentation?

Hollow knight is much cleaner

>>724509592
>It's why she refuses to leave even in Act 3.
With that specifically, it's also because she feels partially responsible, therefore obligated to clean up her own mess.

>>724509192
>>724508021
>>724508002
mother fucker. I was looking in all the goo pits but I stopped doing short hop swings in the goo god dammit. I never would have found it. I'm already getting hard fucking filtered. I have the three melodies and can do lace but I can't even find some of these fucking crests

the shit that got me fucked up was I found the robot and gave it the robot and the bitch flew off

>>724509769
>Spoiler

Oh that's 2nd Sentinel. He's cool and will occasionally help you out.

>>724509186
>bullshit reason for ingame out of bounds wall
Hornet could leave, grow stronger and come back whenever she wants, dumbass
>>724509232
>damn I'm into hostile territoy INSIDE THE JAWS OF THE BEAST IN UNCHARTED TERRITORY
>not retreating nuh uh
The game is retarded and the plot hinged on Hornet lusting for battle

>>724509769
>I can't even find some of these fucking crests
One is in Moss Grotto behind the chapel door (you can wall hop up it), one is in Hunter's Path, one is in Greymoor, one you buy from the robot in the Underworks, one you get from a minor quest chain that involves finding a crying baby in Bilewater accessible through Whispering Vaults, and one is locked to act 3.
The robot will help fight shit in the Citadel and if you encounter it enough times it'll give you a wish to duel it to win an emergency bind tool.

>>724507795
>greentext
This but unironically

>>724498201 (OP)
its to filter you and make you start using tools
>inb4 'didn't beat the game'
((you)) were fed baby formula when you were 2 months old instead of sucking on your mothers tits, so you didn't actually live your life. you should consider restarting it from a fresh save

>>724509640
>Is everyone haunted, or just a few? Its just an excuse to have enemies to fight.
The ones that attack Hornet are Haunted. In fact the only ones the Haunted attack are the ones that aren't Haunted. Which is explained in Unravelled's Silk Heart dialogue. What's also explained is that you can avoid The Haunting by hiding indoors where the ambient Silk isn't. Frey mentions she avoided Widow's Silk by hiding in her shop and eating her supplies. And you can see Silk draped all over Pharloom and even the ambient Silk forcing it's way into the bodies of nearby Pilgrims

>>724507795
I grew up in the 90s, games in general both AAA and indie have been casual trash for decades. So I'm unironically fine with harder "eat shit and die" games getting more popular as a return to the days of arcade devs forgetting they don't need to squeeze quarters from you when making console games.

>>724498201 (OP)
The Groal fight itself isn't even that bad, it's just annoying since even backtracking from the hidden bench is annoying. A good amount of people end up not finding that bench too, which means they're backtracking through the entire area to get back to the fight.

>>724509640
>The bell function, not immediately apparent what they do, why we need to ring them
For the Pilgrims to ring? It's like Yuna needing to hit all the Temples before getting to Zanarkand, the Pilgrims need to ring all of the bells or they don't even get to see The Last Judge.

>>724510337
Yeah and FFX is shit and full of unnecessary bloat and chores, Tidus should've just gone straight to Sin and rim his asshole

>Be an NPC
>The Knight slaps you with a purple lightsaber
>huh weird but ok
>Hornet plays Needolin
>OHMYFUCK I'M BEING PUPPETED AND FORCED TO STAND AT READY AND SING
Why did they make it so much more intrusive

>>724510445
So he can get blown up?

>>724501827
That's pretty smart

>>724510456
Weavers are a pretty fucked up race

>>724509640
>The bell function, not immediately apparent what they do, why we need to ring them
Of all the examples, you pick the one that's the most obvious. The bells serve the combined purpose of providing shelter to pilgrims, announcement to the citadel that more pilgrims have arrived, announcement to other pilgrims where the safe areas are, and operate the lock at the front door that's dependent on whether the areas surrounding the citadel are safe enough for pilgrims to travel.

>>724510456
They explain that too. Unlike the Moths, who were generally pacifists, the Weavers are described as violent, viscous conquerors by everyone other than the Pilgrims who worshipped them. The ghost in Nameless Town laments that the Weavers below seduced them and now their town is a barren, abandoned wasteland.

Grand Mother Silk might have been a tyrant but the Weavers were not the good guys either.

>>724510124
>bellheart haunted but everyone is by threads instead. Why? No one knows
>why is the bellheart bell gunked up with silk, what does ringing the bell do, why doesn't the bad guy want more pilgrims? No one can say
>why does the monster manual claim ants and the like are haunted when there's no string animation or reanimation of corpses to signify this ?

>>724510743
That's the backstory implication, what's the purpose for the plot of the game?

>>724510839
The purpose of the plot, which is centred around Hornet barging her way into the citadel to confront whoever ordered her kidnapping, is for Hornet to use them to barge her way into the citadel.
Or you can ignore them and go up through the air vents instead.

>>724510743
Why does extremely trivial, pedestrian uses like this warrant you doing this for entirety of act 1. You gotta hit EVERY bell boy! Why is it sold to you as this grand, important act if it's entirely useless to Hornet's aims - which is to press ever onward, alone, to kill whoever is at the top.

There's a clear discrepancy between presentation and gameplay, and narrative. And at Bellheart it appears like Widow stops every pilgrim from passing by doing her silk thing. Why.

It still doesn't make sense why the Haunted want to kill Hornet if she was kidnapped to be taken directly to Grand Mother Silk
At least in Hollow KNight the infection targets everyone the same

>>724510951
>use them to barge her way into the citadel.
The act of ringing 4-5 bells in 3 separate zip codes to open a door doesn't make sense.
How does the door know these separate bells have been rung, and by whom?

>>724510994
If the citadel gate had five locks and you needed to search the land for the five keys, would you still be complaining that the keys were pointless? In terms of Hornet's story, it's that but music themed, and with a backstory purpose.

>>724510791
Are you just refusing to engage with the game or what? Because we see what's happening with Bellhart

>bellheart haunted but everyone is by threads instead. Why? No one knows
Widow did it. Since you can hide from The Haunting by staying indoors, like Creigh or Frey, Widow gathered up GMS's Silk and brought it into Bellhart

>why is the bellheart bell gunked up with silk, what does ringing the bell do, why doesn't the bad guy want more pilgrims? No one can say
See above. And why do you think they don't want more Pilgrims? The Pilgrims are being Haunted just by being outside

>why does the monster manual claim ants and the like are haunted when there's no string animation or reanimation of corpses to signify this ?
Do you seriously ask why people are zombies in zombie stories if you don't see the moment of infection?

>>724498201 (OP)
Beat it first try
This captcha is unironically harder than any Silksong boss

>>724511028
For God's sake, please play the game. Or at least complain better

>Seamstress: I'm loath to spoil the surprise, but curiosity begs me to ask. Do you know why they pursue you? Those Citadel bugs?

>Hornet: No certainty, but I've a strong suspicion...
>They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell.

>Streamstress: Ahh ha! Truth, no doubt! In Pharloom, yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure, to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked.
>It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now.

>Hornet: There is another alive in this kingdom that shares my nature, or some part of it. I've seen Silk similar to my own. >It snares the shells of those upon the roads.
>I've seen it wrap them, possess them whole. There is will within that thread, one that seems to come from somewhere above us. The Citadel...

>>724511236
>And why do you think they don't want more Pilgrims? The Pilgrims are being Haunted just by being outside
Why shit up the bell then? There's no point. Eventually they'll get got. If you go up you'll eventually turn into silk zombie.

There's a discrepancy between the presentation of these things and the actual importance to the narrative that you seem to be missing, and is what this is all about.

What's the point of having the ants if they're haunted? So silk can reach essentially everywhere? And it doesn't matter what biome they're in? And every creature is "haunted" regardless if there's an animation or not? Why have the animation in the first place, if not to signify there's something special happening to *these* creatures?

Can you not see how these things create disarray in the visual language of the game? Irrelevant things are made important, people have trouble following the threads laid out by the devs.

>>724510758
The thing is, there's no reason to believe that Grand Mother Silk ever tyrannized anyone. The religion of Pharloom was built around Weaver worship, not Silk worship, and the Weavers used that worship to help keep GMS imprisoned.

For all we know, GMS was a magnanimous and loving god, and her awful children the Weavers couldn't overcome their own base instincts to follow her example and betrayed her.

What's more likely? That the Weavers, who we and everyone that isn't a part of their cult know to be vicious monsters that prey on their own worshipers, were innocent victims of a tyrannical god that... uplifted them from the simple animals they were born as and gifted them with a portion of her own divinity? Or that, despite been given the gifts of reason and silk, they turned on their maternal benefactor in a bestial display of feral rage?

Every bad thing that flows from Pharloom, follows from the Weavers' betrayal of Grand Mother Silk. Verdania, Bilewater and Karak were all destroyed by the Citadel of Song, and that song only existed to glorify the Weavers and imprison GMS.

>>724511101
They're bells, anon. Big gigantic church bells. They ring loudly and their rings travel massive distances. That's why churches use them to signal when it's time to come to mass, because back in ye olden days the sound of church bells could travel across an entire village. And since we know the Citadel was set up over centuries, they had plenty of time to devise mechanisms that would detect the exact sound of each bell based on its distance and unlock that segment when the gate hears it.
>and by whom?
It doesn't, but that's why it has a two-step backup of a) needing the needolin to finish unlocking, and b) Last Judge. But since the natives of each area seem to generally want pilgrims and citadel residents to not show up to where they live, it makes sense that those parties being hostile would result in the bell benches being shut down and the gate being locked, with the gate's unlocking being dependent on those areas being pacified which in turn is reflected by the bell benches being re-activated to serve as safe havens and rest areas for the pilgrims. The citadel doesn't have to worry about marauding invaders using the bells to gain entry into the citadel because they already murdered any nearby kingdom that could, like the Karaka and Verdanians.

>>724506993
except for all the times where they're on top of the screen and you get contact damage

>>724511140
Yes, just go and break the door

>>724511598
Yeah that still doesn't explain why the enemies try to kill Hornet instead of kidnapping her again like she was in the beginning of the game.
And even if she does get put into a cage again by a Jailer she gets taken to the Slab and not to Grand Mother Silk like those other part Weaver bugs we find out about in the secret room of the Cradle.

>>724511140
A key needs a lock. These things are obviously visually, symbolically connected.

But as you or other defenders have stated, the bells are for pilgrims to use? To create safe havens and stuff. And there's only a poorly explained mechanism where they also, somehow, open up the front door to the castle where you want to go?

But this is never stated anywhere in the early game. Its only when you reach the top that you make the connection (maybe).

So what's the motivation for the gamer to go around ringing bells? There's an obvious lack here, that finding a key or opening an actual gate or lock, or Waking a Dreamer doesn't have.

>>724511947
>So what's the motivation for the gamer to go around ringing bells?
Initially, because they create rest areas for the player to use.
But if you reach the gate before ringing all the bells, then you will learn that the bells serve as the lock so you need to go and ring them before the door unlocks.

>>724511670
So why do you climb to the top and kill GMS instead of freeing her and giving her a hug if she's supposedly a good guy?

>>724511771
>they had plenty of time to devise mechanisms that would detect the exact sound of each bell based on its distance and unlock that segment when the gate hears it.
How are you, as a player, supposed to come to this conclusion in a natural fashion?

You are twisting yourself into pretzels here, my man

>>724506993
Groal will literally jump into you if you try that.

>>724498201 (OP)
Explore harder

>>724512056
GMS is a genuine son of a bitch. That guy is delusional.

>>724511654
No. You animation is so that you, the player, can see how the Haunting ensnares it's victims. Going back to the zombie example, why do zombie movies show a healthy person get bitten. So it can see how the zombie virus is transferred. Now you can surmise that something similar has happened to every zombie you see. Why do you see Silk animations once you get to the Citadel? Because unlike >>724510124, the Citadel bugs were dead a second ago and the Silk brought them back. Even death isn't a proper escape for The Haunting and that's information that animation conveys. Also it's just cool.

>What's the point of having the ants if they're haunted?
The game explains this too

>...Their voices... Their song...
>...Their memory...
>...Bind their shells...
>...Bind their souls...
>...Bind them all...
>...Raise them... Up...
>...To devote... Eternal...
>...One mind... One union...
>...They are ours... Bound forever...

Grand Mother Silk holds zero discrimination to who she enslaves. EVERY bug in Pharloom belongs to her. The ants included.

>Why shit up the bell then?
Do you know the purpose of the Citadel's Song? Why would she want the Bells to function when she's assuming direct control with her threads. The songs of the Citadel were intended to put her to sleep. She does not want the Bells, or any of the Citadel's songs, around.

>>724499910
>He has no threatening attacks
The only part of this I disagree with. Groal has six attacks:
>Spit explosive globs
>Inhale
>Fly slowly towards the other side of the arena
>Dive into the water
>Emerge out of the water
>Blast 3 soul blasts forward
Summoning Stilkin and the giant spiky ball are enviornmental hazards, Groal dives in the water when this happens, and the Stilkin fuck off after attacking once. And of all these attacks only three are actually dangerous:

>Spit explosive globs
If you're staying far away from him these can hit you, and often combo you or knock you into the water. Stay relatively close to him and they can't hit you.
>Inhale
Where a lot of people fuck this up, because if you're too close (like what his previous attack would encourage you to do) you'll get sucked in. You can easily pogo him during this, intentionally get inhaled to attack while you're inside him, or just throw an explosive tool like a Pimpillo or a bola-form Voltvessel, he'll eat that instead and stop his attack, taking damage.
>Fly slowly towards the other side of the arena
This is the killer one. It has no telegraph, if he does it he just invades your space and deals contact damage and often you can't get out because he's so massive or you wind up in the water. So you can't be too close too often or he'll get you with this.

So most often with Groal it's about recognizing proper spacing, and if you don't he'll juggle you to death, and for many players it's very easy to not recognize what you have to do since the arena is complex and he's very mobile and he comes at the end of a long trek upwards and a gauntlet, so the player is tense, tired, and prone to screwing up.

>>724511670
If I happen to breed ten children that all ten happen to turn into turbo-chud nazis that go around stomping minorities and snorting crack on the reg, you'd say I was a bad father.

>>724512313
You are

>>724512132
>How are you, as a player, supposed to come to this conclusion in a natural fashion?
You're asking this about a game that uses the Dark Souls approach for backstory lore? lmao
If you don't care about the lore then the only thing you need to know is a) they make benches (literally shown to you on the screen), and b) they unlock the gate, which the game tells you when you go to the gate. If you're asking about why those things happen then you are implying an interest in the backstory lore of the setting, in which case you learn about it the same you learn about everything else in the game.

>>724512313
I'm sure you tried your best.

>>724511670
That's difficult to believe given Grand Mother Silk's dialogue here >>724512204

>>724511909
The Jailers are not aligned with the Citadel anymore. They may have been raised to believe they're unclean but they're not on the same team as evidenced by them feeding Citadel Bugs to the Broodling

>>724512403
>Dark Souls approach for backstory lore
Silksong drops this approach entirely by Act 2

>>724512204
The animation needlessly complicates the relation to the game world. Either include it in multiple zones, for enemies except pilgrims, or don't have it at all.

Now it just makes players prone to assume that only pilgrims are haunted.

Are stilkin haunted? Is Groal? He's at war with the citadel. They have tons of bodies they're collecting. That's their job now.

How do we know Groals guys are not haunted and the ants are? We can't. Because the game lacks visual clarity for communicating these things

>Our hate is eternal

God the Stilkin were so based

>>724512368
You little faggot. Stop being upset you have retardedly bad ideas concerning this game.

>>724512664
It's not even in the first few areas, it's a couple of rooms at the start just to give you an idea.

>>724512656
Incorrect

>>724512664
>We can't. Because the game lacks visual clarity for communicating these things
Using the needolin on any haunted enemy reveals the haunting silk thread

>>724512784
Your face is incorrect

>>724512714
The Stilken were killing every single bug foreign to Bilewater. Including the Snail Shaman who wanted to set up an alliance with them.

>>724512403
Visual storytelling was lost from HK1 to HK2. Which is what this discussion is about.
Yeah, they phoned it in with needlessly complicated and exposition heavy lore dumps. The mechanics you use to progress are needlessly cluttered in fluff and "themes" but are loosely fitted to what you do. It was much more clear in 1.

>>724501292
Pretty sure I ended up fighting groal before phantom and alot of act 2 stuff

>>724512736
Yeah. So *these* guys are haunted.

But not the dock workers. Or ants. But apparently they are??

>>724512879
Sounds based to me

>>724512056
>>724512426
>be a pale being
>uplift a race of spiders to be your demigod daughters
>give them a portion of your power and tell them that they're divine
>they take that power and betray you
>put you to sleep for a thousand years (or more, who's counting?)
>they create a religion for the express purpose of keeping you asleep
>then they try to create a silken homonculus to murder you (but fail, thankfully)
>so they scatter like vermin
>eventually the religion grows decadent and you begin to awaken
>not making the mistake of giving your servants free will again
>string them up with your silk to do your bidding
>send them out to capture or kill your perfidious daughters
>they bring back one half-Weaver/half-Wyrm that wants a fight
>give it to her

Gee, I wonder why the action platformer ends with an action set piece instead of talking through the cycle of betrayal and revenge.

Why does Hornet sleep with her upskirt pointed towards her open door. Is she asking for it?

>>724512879
Genuinely the kings of Pharloom. Snail shaman had it coming, likely trying to sway them somehow or other. Now he's a soul battery.

>>724513080
Best possible outcome. Anything that isn't the Weavers fault is probably the snails'.

>>724513029
GMS apologia is so fucking tiresome.
>GMS does nothing to fix citadel's ass backwards economy, chattel slavery or pilgrimage system when she has capacity to do so
>GMS sentences her first born true daughter to die pumping shit forever because ???
>GMS wants to kill and dominate all life on Pharloom
>GMS has no creative ideas beyond making mirrors, like having a pet daughter to gratify her ego

>>724512993
>But not the dock workers
They're Haunted too. Wanted to know how I know? Because the Forge Daughter told me. But also...

Seriously why do you insist on dying on this hill? I don't even think Silksong is flawless but this is a stupid point to get stuck on

>>724513264
>But what about the economy?!
Go finish Winds of Winter, George.

>>724512954
Yeah my idea would be specifically for people who did Shakra's wish first, since it wouldn't interfere with the intent of having players explore most of Bilewater with just the bellway bench before they find another one close to the end. Either they meticulously find a breakable wall while swimming in maggot shit, or they get every map and two of the melodies to unlock Shakra's wish.

>>724513080
>That's racist! We are more alike than different!

>>724513336
Point is you won't know. They look and sound far more normal than the haunted pilgrims.
There's isn't a strong visual cue like they had in hk1, instead one can easily assume that the only haunted enemies were the first guys, only to later be "proven" wrong by entries in the monster manual.

The whole game's story is a fucking and it shows they tried to do the Dark Souls approach but couldn't since Hornet is not a blank slate character so the whole plot falls apart by the end of Act 2
Even the Default Ending doesn't make any sense at all

>>724513661
>the whole game's story is a fucking
NO, SAAR. YOU ARE THE FUCKING, SAAAR!

>>724513661
>The whole game's story is a fucking

>>724512993
By the way the ants are Haunted too. Ask me how I know

>>724513883
>>724513949
MESS

>>724513654
Did you want the Haunted Silk to be immediately visible on every Haunted bug like the Radiance's glowing eyes? Do you have any idea how annoying that would get?

>>724513264
Pale King looking pretty good right now.

>>724513960
>retcon

>>724513960
>you need to check with the sneedolin
>dumbo "argument" has nothing to do with what a player first experiences as he plays through the game
Concede that TC simply did not use visual cues as strongly or as cleverly as they did in the prior installment. Here, they cause confusion. Both when they use cues, and when they don't use them.

>>724514145
Retcon how?

>>724514052
You mean like the poopie mess after you've eaten your cow pies for Diwali, Ranjeet?

>>724514058
Design a better system, where this conversation isn't happening.

Or just include a few of every enemy being possessed by haunting in every zone, if every single living being in Pharloom is truly haunted.

Which is imo, would be in any case sad for bilewater, because theyre already against the whole world and would've fought you anyway - and their whole climate is anti-silk and they bathe in maggot water repeatedly.

>why are bugs like this?
>here's the explaination
>LALALALALA I WON'T BELIEVE YOU LALALALALA

>>724514441
What is this passive aggressive greentext so upset about, really?

>>724514181
Why would that have nothing to do with what a player would first experience? Any first time player would immediately see >>724510124 and then assume that it's the same as this >>724513960
>>724513336. The game makes it extremely clear that the Haunting is everywhere and that every hostile bug should be presumed Haunted unless stated otherwise. Hornet even tells you the bugs of Pharloom are focused on their tasks until they notice her and one of the first bits of dialogue in the game comes from the Chapel Maid who says

>Welcome then, fierce traveller, to Pharloom! Our holy yet haunted land.
>Before you depart, permit an old bug a brief warning. Best keep that weapon drawn.
>Our kingdom is gripped by a curse. Its paths grow wild and dangerous, and though some still attempt the climb to the Citadel at its crest, none return to speak of what they see.

I don't care that you personally didn't like it. But you cannot say that information wasn't conveyed even if it takes time to learn the full context. Which, surprise, is what a story is.

>>724498201 (OP)
People are still crying about this

>>724514441
>provide shitty explanation
>audience doesn't get it
>NOOOOO YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE MEEE

>>724499268
I was, genuinely. I was making some progress but felt insulted at the prospect of doing those beginning waves again.

>>724499910
trvke

>>724499910
>Groal is just an extension of Bilewater's broader design, which isn't some cynical attempt to create a "that boss" for people to talk about.

Couldn't disagree more, the whole zone is 1000% a cynical meme.

>>724514691
You don't get needolin early game. Not for a new player.

You will go through those zones before getting to the needolin. You will think pilgrims are haunted, but that they are clearly different from the more expressive dock workers and ants- who appear to have jobs and are doing their own thing out in the world, instead of just faffing about and praying like pilgrims (who are zombies).

This is, as you say, a false idea- but one the game supports by not using coherent visual language to depict what is happening in the game.

You'd have to go back and "confirm" something you didn't even know with a tool you never understood did this.

You can even further complicate things by assuming that the Sneedolin reads EVERY soul and can control everyone, not just haunted beings.

These are the risks with being imprecise, unclear and lacking foresight and acuity when making a game or story.

>>724514306
>Hmm Silk forced it's way into this bug

>but I'm sure those bugs over there are attacking for a different reason even though there's a mechanic that shows you who's haunted and who isn't

>>724499589
It's really fucking stupid, yeah. Silksong has some actual serious balance issues but also Groal isn't actually a part of that. Bilewater as a whole is fine for the most part and the game even lets you take steps to negate / help with the most annoying aspect

>>724515156
There's no difference between the Pilgrims and the Dock Workers. That's the point. Every bug is doing it's assigned task with the only difference being Haunted bugs will attack Hornet on sight while non Haunted bugs won't. You don't need to "confirm" that although you can if you want to.

>>724515210
What does this have to do with the trajectory every new player takes forcing him to witness these enemies behaving differently and having different visual flourishes on them signifying (secretly) that they are all zombies actually and all the same?

Its made to be visually confusing. Its not a clear design language at all. Why make some directly haunted and not others? Why not give every zombie enemy clear visual markers like the Glowing Orange Goo so clearly showed in HK1?

>>724514306
>Design a system that explicitly spoonfeeds me something that I'd know if I held D for two seconds
no

I swear the fanbase was always the worst part of HK's existence and it didn't get better with Silk Song.
The team Cherry defense force is really a pain in the ass
>You didn't play the game the right way
>Can't you read between the lines? No other explanation is needed
>More content is always better
>you just got filtered, git gud
Yadda yadda.
I don't hate the game, but it truely overstay its welcome in my opinion but that's something truly unimaginable for some of you.

>>724515432
A guy working and then attacking me is very different from a zombie standing still as a statue, big strands and things coming from the sky and animating him to attack me.

That these two enemies are actually exactly the same, and come from the same source is not clear.

>>724515156
>You will go through those zones before getting to the needolin.
You'll also go through all of them after.

>>724515481
HK1 did it better. Kick rocks.

>>724515491
>How dare you enjoy something the way it was intended to be, you're part of a defence force!

>>724515549
Because they only just fell to the Haunting while the others have been Haunted for a while. Because, as it turns out, not everyone got Haunted at the same time and its possible for a Pilgrim or a worker to have avoided the Haunted Silk. And I've said it several times but it bears repeating, ask me how I know.

The only person confused by how The Haunting works is you.

Hollow Knight 1 is better than SIlksong

>>724507035
You find this on the body of a chorister in Mosshome, in the first hour of the game. It's not even a little bit ambiguous.

>>724516059
>Last of their line.
Not after Sherma's done.

>>724516150
Do not corrupt the pure bug

>Shakra crouches down to speak to you at first
>Stops doing it when she respects you
kino

>>724515976
You haven't actually countered any of the arguments, that the nature of the haunting as it relates to what we fight might be very confusing to a player starting out, and that this can create more confusion regarding the needolin and what it does, and what you are doing when using it and so on.
All stemming from the poor use of visual cues.

You're actually communicating very little with your posts. Both the videos and the writing. You're asking me to infer a lot of shit you're clearly not saying.

I'm not that gracious.

>>724516216
There will be nothing impure about it, it will be a holy and sacred process.

>>724516059
>quell with rune cage
>no rune cage used ever again

>>724499589
Bilewater wasn’t even that bad and the main problems with Silksong come from shit like side quests being a thing with a lot of random fetch quests and how you can miss the Shakra fight.

>>724516059
Why do zombie bugs need written orders?

>>724516278
Except for when the flies capture you.
Or all the rune cages piled up in the Cradle.

>>724516278
Wrong, a rune cage is how Hornet gets captured by the jailerbugs and taken to the Slab. She mentions that the runes are the same debilitating kind that trapped her when she was first captured in Hallownest.

>>724498201 (OP)
That Area was shit.
Boss was easy and joke if you are patient.

I don't get the seethe, he is one of the easier bosses desu

>>724516265
Because it's not confusing. The game dog piles information on top of you as to what the Haunting is and how it works both visually AND through text. Without a straight up 5 minute lore dump, the only way a new player would make it all the way to the Citadel and not know what's going on is if they explicitly were not paying attention or did not retain the information they saw. And at that point nobody can help them. Not even if Mossbag paid 3 strippers to give a PowerPoint presentation on the Haunting and all of its negative effects.

>>724516731
Dammit I meant to use this image. Oh well, still applies

>>724498201 (OP)
Groal is literally impossible for a minimum % run, I'm tempted to just beat GMS for the bad ending and call it a day instead of trying to get through act 3.

I just run the cogfly sentries with poison bag and the lava lamp fire tosser and just focus on dodging everything
All bosses are pushovers

>>724521238
I wish Death's Door was better.

>>724501894
>To the extent that TC now caves and nerfed his zone AGAIN
Wait? We've gotten/getting even more nerfs?
I have still refused to update from the launch version because I refuse to lose my down+jump hover combo.

>>724521821
>I refuse to lose my down+jump hover combo
qrd? don't you mean down+attack?

>>724514691
>The game makes it extremely clear that the Haunting is everywhere
The crust and ant bugs in the memories aren't haunted. Nor are the un-evolved bugs on the surface.
Kind of neat that the bugs that ought to be exceptions actually are exceptions and can't be bound by the needolin.

>>724521821
It's nothing specific to the zone just Multibinder and Wreath are stronger, I don't even think the zone is hard, the boss is the only problem and he's not that bad really

>>724521930
He means the override they removed that let you glide right after a jump instead of double jumping

>>724521930
>qrd?
In the launch version of the game you could do the princess peach hover after a single jump even if you still hadn't double jumped.
If you update you have to double jump to hover.

No, Bilewater is only "supposed to be shit" narratively. It having repetitive music, bullshit garbage mechanics like the maggot water, a terrible boss runback and an unintuitive boss is bad game design.

>>724522947
>repetitive music, bullshit garbage mechanics, a terrible boss runback and an unintuitive boss
Good thing it has none of these

>>724501560
Toad bugs are a real thing you know...

>>724523113
It absolutely does. Bilewater is probably the largest area in the game; it thus should've been fun enough to compensate for this, preventing it from being a drag. Instead it's pure cancer.

>>724523297
>it thus should've been fun
Good thing it was

>>724522498
You mean the area that was mentioned to have been destroyed upon GMS's arrival? Which would mean they wouldn't have existed by the time GMS was put to sleep? Are you gonna keep this up or are you going to play the game so you can at least complain better.

>>724522947
>repetitive music
I always find it funny to hear opera singers and musicians gush about some of these tracks and then come here to hear about actually it was super repetitive.

>>724524068
Now try actually jumping into the memory and then play the needolin for the past memory-bugs.
It doesn't work.
Just like how the needolin works on present day ants but not the ants from when Karmelita and her kin were still strong.

Also I'm not that other anon nor am I even arguing for the same thing.

>>724522562
>>724522509
kek I finished the game on launch version and didn't even know you could down+jump to just hover

>>724525392
It even allowed you to jump, hover, double jump, and then hover again.

>>724498201 (OP)
just got to this guy during this thread. killed him 3rd attempt. no tools. if you're patient, you have lots of time to bind.

>>724522509
Ok but that’s a good buff for multibinder, it sucks ass as-is and making the first heal clear maggots and the second heal still apply for 2 masks is a great situational use-case that makes multibinder not 100% worthless dogshit.

Wreath of Purity buff is eh. Once you have it, you have it, I never once wished it lasted longer. If it’s caving on anything it’s Lugoli, that’s the only situation where you’re getting repeatedly maggoted enough to notice.

>>724499589
your "criticism" is just "WAHHH WAHHH TOO HARD WAHHHHHHH"
that's why people are rightfully shitting on you for being a casual faggot

I'm retarded, someone explain the act 3 ending to me.
I get that we beat the void off of Lace, but is she going to have to just eat Hornet's silk for all eternity to live?
How did GMS die if she was alive and fine under the void the entire time? Is Pharloom actually saved and how?

>>724528004
NTA but Groal sucks. It’s only memorable for sucking. It’s a shit boss with a shit runback in a shit area and a shit mini gauntlet. Everything about it is ass.

Silksong has a ton of great bosses that are harder than Groal by a lot. Karmelita. Lost Lace. Arguably Last Judge. Cursed GMS.

Groal is like The Unravelled. Just not fun to fight. I will admit him having Vengeful Spirit was a hype moment, but apart from that, it’s just a slog. It’s not something you’d voluntarily do again. No one is amped for the Godseeker Groal rematch.

>>724516330
Hallownest is far beyond Pharloom's borders. Grand Mother Silk's awakening is imminent by the time the choir returns with Hornet captive, and we see multiple examples of bugs which are under GMS' sway that are nonetheless still capable of independent thought like Conductor Ballador, and Forge Daughter specifically states that the Haunting's effect on the Deep Docks is recent.

It doesn't require a degree in media literacy to infer that the Conductors, long subject to Grand Mother Silk's influence due to their use of silk to prolong their own lives, were influenced to exercise GMS' will to return the scattered Weavers or their descendants to Pharloom to face judgment for their betrayal - so they give written orders to their soldiers to carry out.

Also - and I know that this is going to blow your mind - it's a video game and collectible lore items that reveal backstory are kind of a trope. Wild, I know.

IF YOU DEFEND THE LACK OF CHECKPOINTS IN THIS GAME

KILL YOURSELF

KILL YOUR FUCKING SELF

>>724528582
Filtered by a game about cute silly bugs

>>724528582
But there are tons of checkpoints.

>>724528582
Checkpoints suck.
>try to quit to bench
>oops turns out the item you just got is a checkpoint no getting out of runbacks for you, buddy

>>724529007
Bench warping is for fags

>>724528582
Silksong is genuinely highly considerate when it comes to benches, definitely more so than the previous game.
It's just this one place, which I'll agree goes for long without one, but is otherwise balanced by all the weak enemies that respawn for you to farm silk from.

>>724529173
>but is otherwise balanced by all the weak enemies that respawn for you to farm silk from.
Or those bulky but easy to avoid fat fucks who spew acid that are easy to dodge, and hilariously easy to pogo with enough health that you'll get a whole heal just off one of them.

>>724502475
>What if Dark Souls but bugs
vs
>Half baked ideas and cartoonishly evil/flat villains
I guess I'd go with Hollow Knight even if it's just stealing from a better game.

>>724528456
>I'm retarded, someone explain the act 3 ending to me.

Sure, I'll give it a go.

>I get that we beat the void off of Lace, but is she going to have to just eat Hornet's silk for all eternity to live?

Maybe? It's not clear to me that Lace actually needs to consume silk to live. She's basically the perfected version of what the Weavers tried to create with Eva. It's entirely possible that GMS gave her a silkheart of her own and she regenerates naturally, no additional consumption required - fanart notwithstanding.

>How did GMS die if she was alive and fine under the void the entire time?

But she wasn't alive and fine the entire time. She formed another cocoon around herself and Lace to keep out the Void, which you see in the final dive cinematic and inside which the fight against Loss Lace takes place. GMS is pretty threadbare when she's revealed in phase one, and collapses in a heap during phase two because the strain of maintaining the protection against the Void is too great which is why it starts pouring in.

>Is Pharloom actually saved and how?
It's saved from being dragged down into the Abyss by GMS' death throes. With her death and dissolution sacrificing the last of her silk to help Hornet escape with Lace, the immediate danger of catastrophic collapse is over. There's no more Void-soaked silk drawing the Void up into Pharloom.

Longer term, it's kind of an open question as to whether or not the kingdom will recover. There are survivors and some of them may even be able to make a go of rebuilding. Maybe Lace will stick around as Pharloom's guardian the same way Hornet did for Hallownest.

>>724506008
Team Cherry is proof that retards will put up with mediocre gameplay so long as your game is pretty and pretentious enough. These faggots are so desperate for vidya to be validated as art that they forgot the game half of the medium.

>>724529409
alright, that makes sense thank you

>>724499589
No, this kind of thing is specific to a certain kind of game. Hollow Knight is particularly egregious for this effect, as is Expedition 33, and to a lesser extent, Undertale. Toxic fanbases are gonna be toxic. Just look at some of the responses to your post.
I beat the game. Twice. Both times, Groal was an unpleasant mess. I didn't dislike him because he was hard, I disliked him because he, like a good portion of the game, is designed to be shit, apparently.

But I just wouldn't get it. I just want to have "fun", but that's just a buzzword, right, fellow zoomers?

>>724529731
Are you retarded
>I think a good portion of the game is designed to be shit but I played it twice anyways so let me tell you why you're toxic for liking it
Yep, retarded. 90% of modern games are made for people like you, so go play one of them instead, retard. Gachashit sounds right up your alley.

>>724529731
This, same here. If anyone says the third phase of the last boss of act 3 was well made they have mental issues

>>724529731
If a game intentionally advertises itself as being challenging and punishing, then you need to by virtue of the intent the game is going for understand that there will be sections of the game that are not designed to be "fun." Some people enjoy the challenge. Some people enjoy being frustrated repeatedly because it makes overcoming the frustration more internally rewarding. If you're not that kind of person then there's nothing wrong with it, but don't go around saying that something is objectively bad because it's intended to do something that its audience wants, just because you don't.
If you don't like spicy food then don't go to a place advertising spicy food and tell the people eating there that the food's shit and they're idiots for liking it.
>food metaphor

>>724530297
You are just confirming what he said, kek

>>724530297
If I hadn't given it a fair shake, you'd instead be making fun of me by posting, ">didn't play the game".
Getting insulted by pond scum idiots like you is actually something I take pride in. You're reactionary. A simpleton. You don't have any thoughts of your own, you just consume others, and then pretend you experienced the spark of intelligence.

>>724530487
I enjoy many of the hardest parts of the game, but others are shit. Challenge != Good design

>>724516059
So was it GMS or the conductors that wanted her? Because why would GMS need to write these reports if the conductors were all haunted and basically functioning as her sockpuppets or terminals?

>>724516216
>pure
He stuffs massive gold tipped dildoes up his butt.
You find all these sex toys when tracking him in white ward.

>>724528515
Nothing at all suggests Ballador was haunted.

>>724529007
Why would quit to check point even work? Your progress should only be saved at checkpoints in the first place.

>>724531459
I don't think he is either but then you have to question why as he obviously has Silk in him, presumably a lot of it too, perhaps he can resist it like Hornet can

>>724530487
>Some people enjoy being frustrated repeatedly because it makes overcoming the frustration more internally rewarding.
I resonate with this, but there's a little more to it than that. Even when you're having a hard time in Silksong, the feeling is always "I know what I'm doing wrong, I feel myself getting better with every attempt, so if I just keep trying it's bound to pay off eventually" and when you finally get past it, it's satisfying as hell. If it were nothing but annoying bullshit where you're just banging your head against a wall and hoping to get by on luck, yeah that would be frustrating. But Silksong's design is very carefully considered. Should be, took 'em long enough.
I think an underrated aspect of Silksong's design is the lack of an i-frame dodge. When damage has to be avoided via positioning, not just button timing, that keeps both the player AND the designer honest when it comes to combat encounters.

>>724529409
>Maybe Lace will stick around as Pharloom's guardian the same way Hornet did for Hallownest.
Sounds like the perfect hook for Hollow Knight 3: Lace's Quest.

>>724532032
You were mind broken by the wait to accept a mediocre game.

>>724498201 (OP)
there are so many worse examples than him though, they run out of video essay ideas or something?

>>724502475
I guess I prefer HK's "less is more" approach to storytelling. Where the game is mostly about getting immersed in the world and uncovering its history via exploration. Silksong is much more character driven, and of course having the voiced protagonist in Hornet does a lot to reinforce that. Both have their trade-offs. I think Silksong is more thematically laden, though.
>>724504024
>We needed more discarded remnants like Phantom for Lace to find and reflect on and to see more lore of Lace going from Faithful Daughter and Knight, towards becoming more bitter towards her mom.
We need a Lace DLC, that becomes its own sequel in 7 years.

There should have been a secret level inside him

>mask maker's mask looks exactly like gilly
But what does it mean?!

>>724499910
>The Stilkin are annoying, but as soon as you understand that they're environmental hazards - not enemies - they're easy to avoid
only wrong part given you need to kill these faggots for the hunting journal. makes them way too annoying in first encounter
otherwise agreed.

>>724532372
Ah hell no.

>>724530506
Playing a game you don't like twice in its entirety isn't "giving it a fair shake", you pseudointellectual dumbfuck, it's mental illness. Why do you need this one particular game need to cater to your tastes in particular? You don't like it. Congratulations. Shut the fuck up and go play gachashit.

>>724533938
Lace is a shitty ass character, so no, we don't. I'd rather see 2nd Sentinel get his own game.