Thread 33646378

How do I avoid the incel pit traps? I feel like I am sort of spinning the drain and I really don't want to get swept up in that way of thinking because I think it will ultimately make my life harder. However, a big thing for me is perception. I have always been a perceptive person and the incel lines of thinking always seem way too real to me. If they say something like "You know women have it easier when it comes to dating right? Therefore, they have a easier time getting relationships(or sex) if they want." That to me sounds so insanely real that I could never refute it. I can run that line of thinking through my own head and conclude "YES, women do have it more easy when it comes to dating which therefore means they can find relationships more easily etc." SO what am I not seeing? If what the incels say is true, how can you refute the truth without seeming retarded? What could you even say? "Yeah women don't actually have it easy when it comes to dating." because that would be a lie wouldn't it? Ultimately, I just have a hard time proving to myself that incel ways of thinking aren't real. I get some things are really out there such as breaking bones in your face to look more handsome etc. That for sure is retarded. However, the more mellow things like dating dynamics and statistics really reach out to me.

>>33646378 (OP)
>What could you even say? "Yeah women don't actually have it easy when it comes to dating."
"Women have it easier when it comes to dating. This knowledge does not positively or negatively impact me in the slightest."
>However, the more mellow things like dating dynamics and statistics really reach out to me.
Statistics and "dating dynamics" are for normies and faggots. Are you a normie or a faggot? If not, then you're fine. Just go have fun in life, and if you see a girl you like just shoot your shot and see what happens.
Being an incel doesn't mean you aren't aware of stuff like divorce statistics and the like. It just means you don't let let that shit dictate how you live your life.

>>33646401
>Being an incel
Not being an incel, rather.

>>33646401
>"Women have it easier when it comes to dating. This knowledge does not positively or negatively impact me in the slightest."

I guess this is kind of right. I feel impacted by it because a bit thing about dating is availability. If a woman is swamped with options, she can do whatever. I however am definitely not swamped with options and never have been. People say "You should date from a position of abundance" but what the fuck does that even mean if you have no abundance? I get one date a year if am lucky and thats via online dating. Most women I know are definitely not that strapped for dates. But you are right, it doesn't impact me all that much I guess but it definitely makes it harder because I have to be less picky and probably yield on a couple of my preferences whereas a woman probably does not. Example, I strongly prefer to not date women who smoke anything. However, of the few dates I do get, most of those women smoked something. However, because I already get few dates, I felt that I had to sort of relent on a few preferences.

>>33646378 (OP)
You avoid it by just doing something productive with your time. That's it. You know what's good for you, and you know what's bad for you. You already know.

Whatever demoralizing blackpill you want to force down everyone's throats; it's probably correct. Life is hard and miserable. There are problems everywhere you look. But guess what? Nothing good exists anywhere because some faggy knowitall spent his free time and energy pissing and shitting himself over how hard and unfair life is and forcing le epic blackpill down people's throats. Good things exist because people strive in spite of problems and the fact entropy exists. If you want to spend your one life and your free time and energy jerking yourself off over how smart you are because you realized the sun is going to explode some day and women are whores, then just go do it. No one will care. Or, you can do the best with what you have, and rest easy knowing you fought against the bad timeline to make it the good one. Anything else is a fantasy.

>>33646470
here, i'll help.


OP, the abundance isnt actually your amount of dates. Its demands on your time. Its a frame of mind.

If you're in a position where you're defining the abundance as the number of dates available to you, then unless it meets your expectations you will always feel behind, or desperate and thats part of the pit trap to avoid because that frame of mind contaminates everything you do.

Its also correlating with poor self esteem too.

You need to instead shift the thought process to "I am a person who has important demands on his time, not just time for worrying about dating all the time.'

Some will dismiss this as a cope, but the fact is that its the best bet you have to maximise your life.

>>33646514
I am not sure I follow what you mean. I want to understand because it sounds helpful. To me, abundance is the amount of opportunities discovered for a given thing. I am not saying I want every date to work out or every woman to be the woman for me. But I just want the option to even play "the numbers game". As it stands, I feel I am wasting away because I don't even get to try. I am actually a very determined person but I hate forcing opportunities I guess. I want my opportunities to be naturally encountered. I could definitely do something extreme like talk to every woman I ever see ever but that seems retarded and forced to me. Especially since the opposite isn't true for women. Women are definitely not talking to every man they encounter. Maybe I am looking at it the wrong way. The "I am a person who has important demands on his time" part is just something that isn't true for me. The only demands on my time that I have are my gym time and work. Other than that, I am basically free all the time. Which may be a bad thing. I don't have obligations like that. My life is basically work, gym and video games.

>>33646514
I appreciate the help but I still think this is the wrong way of looking at life. You don't go around faggotmaxxing or whatever because life is problem you're trying to optimize yourself for and the centerpiece of your metric of success is female attention. 'um ackchully my attractiveness goes up 5.2 percent because of this new hair product that i..' no, that's fucking insanely retarded. You take care and pride in your appearance because style is fun and an outward aspect of how you express yourself. That's it. Trying to optimize yourself and your relationships like you're a minmax DnD character is really fucking stupid and will make you retarded and frustrated in the long run.

>>33646401
>This knowledge does not positively or negatively impact me in the slightest."
Equality propaganda literaly continuously negatively affects your entire culture. Policies, economicaly, socialy.
Ex. Feminists publicly celebrate the crashing birthrate and directly tie it to the double standards they implimented and use.
We are constantly told "we're equal" and then have oppressive policies placed on us.

Don't lie to the fucking poor bastard. If lying to yourself is your only advice, we are past the point of recovery, and OP is already doomed.

>>33646574
>because style is fun and an outward aspect of how you express yourself.
>That's it.
Based retard. You sound fucking gay.

>>33646378 (OP)
Women choose who they want to fuck. Men choose who they want to marry. If all you do with this information is spin your wheel obsessing over the fact women don't choose you to fuck, you are rightly being removed from the gene pool.
>women have it easier because...
Okay. Let's pretend absolutely everything incels say is 110% correct. What now?

>>33646599
What's with the hostility? You okay? I'd love to hear why you think I'm wrong.

>>33646607
You neatly step over the fact women choose to not fuck him regardless of his obsessing.

>Okay. Absolutely everything incels say is 110% correct. What now?
You break down and cry like a bitch?
Then have a train run on your butthole?

>>33646470
>>33646574
Only non-npc post itt. Zoomers unironically have had their brains cooked by video games that life is a series of meters that full up and they you get rewarded because you have the best stats and become humorless and maladaptive drones as a consequence. They cannot wrap their head around anything more complex

>>33646612
hostility?
I don't think youre wrong. You just described an idea you have when gay.
Gays say that about appearance, straits do not.

>>33646626
>You neatly step over the fact women choose to not fuck him regardless of his obsessing.
Yes, obsessing is unattractive and unhelpful sir. I didn't think I needed to point this out.
>You break down and cry like a bitch?
>Then have a train run on your butthole?
Spiritually and mentally this is what incels do, yeah

>>33646470
Your posts in the last few days have been really great. Keep up the good work.

>>33646628
Zoomers have had thier brains cooked by Boomers destroying literaly every institution, economy and human activity and leaving nothing behind.
You think its bad, now wait for the near universal nihilism of gen-alpha.
Video games don't even register causally.

>>33646587
>We are constantly told "we're equal" and then have oppressive policies placed on us.
Christ almighty not everything is required to tie back to a political agenda. A dude who concerns himself more with /pol/-tier obsession over the machinations of feminism or the left or whatever fucking boogeyman has been deemed enemy of the week than his own sphere of influence is destined to a life of incel misery. Let the guy just try to shoot his shot and take a crack at his local dating scene before you start screaming at him about how feminism has made every woman on the planet completely undateable.

>>33646638
Yeah keep lying and trying to say the obsession is the cause.

You and I both know you are getting the relationship exactly backwards to sheild your own ego. He's only obsessive because no one picks him. Him doing any mental brainwashing to not be obsessive at this point won't make anyone pick him.

The ones the girls pick don't have to try.
You think you tried the correct thing, while in reality you just got stupid lucky, and have no ability to explain why without breaking your worldview.

>>33646661
When the last boomer dies I'll be sure to say AND STAY OUT as I piss on their grave. No shit we all inherited a bad situation from the worst generation. But zoomies unfortunately are going to make all the same mistakes and worse, and itll be nobody's fault but their own. Boomers were raised on the idiot box that was television but zoomers are much much worse being raised on streamers onlyfans and around brown people

>>33646662
Moron, the entire woman sufferage movement is a political movement, and you're experiencing its fallout right now.

>>33646686
Zoomers won't even have money to use, how will they make any decisions?

>>33646685
>Yeah keep lying and trying to say the obsession is the cause.
This isn't what I said or meant at all. Sorry about your low reading comprehension

>He's only obsessive because no one picks him.
Uhuh. Sure. This 4chan. I'm sure he's just a normal ol guy who has absolutely NO personality quirks or flaws that make him unattractive like autism or learned helplessness or something.

>The ones the girls pick don't have to try.
okay then just give up on women then if this is true and it bothers you and spend the rest of your life shouting about on the street corner until you turn gay and definitely NEVER attempt to do anything because other people are better off than you yep mmhm thats the smart thing to do

>>33646662
>local dating scene
What did he mean by this?

>>33646685
>The ones the girls pick don't have to try.
Yes normal adjusted people don't try and don't autistically analyze gender relations

You don't. In order to not spiral down the hole life has to not be heading towards there. I went through the same thing and trying everything to not fall in to those pits, but I was never able to prove them wrong and all that ended up happening was that it just kept eating at me till it was to much.

The thing with self improvement and solving problems is that it takes two to tango. It doesn't matter if you want it or are trying to fix it, if the problem doesn't want to be fixed then there's nothing else you can do.

>>33646698
You literaly say his obsessing makes him unattractive you lying asshole
>>33646638
>obsessing is unattractive and unhelpful sir.

The abused get built up trauma. Life is not as causal as you want. Some people lose for no reason. We congregate here AFTER life experience. Life experience that doesn't fucking tell the story you want. You're also here (Forever).

You advice is to give up on women and focus on himself. The quiet part you don't want to say is he probably won't ever get anyone.

Mouse Utopia applies to humans too.

>>33646470
>Or, you can do the best with what you have, and rest easy knowing you fought against the bad timeline to make it the good one. Anything else is a fantasy.

Hahaha I fucking wish.

>>33646711
Yes.
I'm glad You agree.
You can't fake being "normal".
You can't work on being "normal".

>>33646587
>>33646717
These. The only way to be happy is to understand that women have an unfair advantage and fight against it with everything you have. Trying to "just ignore it" and playing the game by their rules will just make you miserable, because at best you'll end up with a 2/10 landwhale who thinks she settled on you and will actively make you live your life on her terms, and even then she'll still cheat on you and expect you to forgive her. It's a shit world out there, don't waste your time.

>>33646723
>You literaly say his obsessing makes him unattractive you lying asshole
Being obsessive is unattractive. Try to tell me it isn't so I can dismiss you as a retard. You insisted I think it's the root cause of his problems like the churl you are, which is not what I said.

>The abused get built up trauma.
Assuming OP has trauma then maybe he ought to address his trauma before he approached problems and relationships, hm? Suffering trauma doesn't make everything you say think or do related to that trauma correct.

>You advice is to give up on women and focus on himself.
My advice is to examine himself and give up on women until he's figures out what sort of trauma he might have and actually formulate and good response to women being whores other than arguing about it with people on the internet

>>33646555
>I am not sure I follow what you mean. I want to understand because it sounds helpful. To me, abundance is the amount of opportunities discovered for a given thing. I am not saying I want every date to work out or every woman to be the woman for me. But I just want the option to even play "the numbers game".

you're stuck fixated on playing the dating game. He was saying, change your game level, or your mentality while playing the dating game is going to keep fucking you.

if you only have work and gym demands on your time, you aren't using your time enough and could be doing more for yourself.

>>33646729
>You can't work on being "normal".
You can though. If you don't want to hear that your problems and flaws are rectifiable and things you think are weakness can be strengths -- and you think everyone is broken with no hope of healing -- you should suck a bullet as soon a possible so other people dont get dragged down into the crab bucket with you. It's wild people think this way then have the gal to act appalled when people dont like them and cant find social success

>>33646737
You write like a woman.
That's not how reality works.
He has already been discarded. No amount of effort to fake it will make this better for a person who has already been discarded, even if a change could happen. It can't, because change is a fucking retarded hippie meme.

You don't think any of those people who discarded him should change, and it would still take some effort on thier part in your worldview.

>>33646555
>i dont talk to women
>why dont i have success with women omg incels are right again
oh its one of these number again

>>33646753
>That's not how reality works.
Tell me you've had success socially and with women and I'll take your opinion seriously

>>33646753
>Noooo there's nothing anyone can do ever life is over at 20 because nobody touched my pee pee!!!!!!

Lmao incels are the real npcs.

>>33646747
Your ideology layed bare has no predictive power or practical leverage, and honestly it's kind of abusive.

You are suggesting he lies to himself, call his features as flaws, and fake a different personality, while expecting nothing.
You completely discard both chances compounding effects, the past, and actual human nature, it gives no practical advice, no predictive power, which is the first practical heuristic to discard anything you say.

"Fake it till you make it" is an abusive lie that never works.

>>33646753
I wondered where all the robots went after getting driven out of /r9k/ by femcels. I suppose migrating to /adv/ makes sense.

Incels are right about everything. But all they do with their dark revelation about women is argue with people on the internet over it. Very bizarre creatures.

>>33646758
By manipulating the shit out of them. People are driven by thier insecurities, and women are both shallow and retarded, which was compounded by having people spoiling them rotten from birth.

In fact, this works on everyone, not just women.

>>33646775
Am I a robot or can I improve myself?

>>33646773
>Your ideology layed bare has no predictive power or practical leverage, and honestly it's kind of abusive.
I'm not trying to make some deep philosophical dissertation on predictive powers. You're on another planet right now. All I'm advocating is people do something healthy and productive with their time in lieu of women being retarded and maybe discover something about themselves that lead them here.

>>33646778
The only winning move is to not play.

The dark revelationis "you lost". What are they supposed to do with that?

>>33646784
>By manipulating the shit out of them.
Okay tell me more about the women and people you manipulated

>>33646792
Advice is supposed to be practical leverage. Practical leverage comes from accurate models. Accurate models give you predictive power. They are bound together.
Now you're just letting the cat out of the bag.

>>33646378 (OP)
>"You know women have it easier when it comes to dating right? Therefore, they have a easier time getting relationships(or sex) if they want."
the irony is that while incels harp constantly on the fundamental differences of both genders, they fail to draw the logical conclusions from that.
In this particular case its is true that some things are quite easy for women, their challenges in dating are simpyl different ones from that of men.
Similarly, they are correct that women will not feel deeply attracted not a great number of men. What they choose to omit is that women are far more particular in their tastes than men , and often have a very strict "type" instead of simply considering all men within a certain attractiveness range.

>"Yeah women don't actually have it easy when it comes to dating." because that would be a lie wouldn't it?
Nope, it would be absolutely true. There far too mcuh to put inot asingle post here, but for example getting a date with a man they desire means waiting and hoping that said man makes a move.
But mostly importantly theres the old adage of men getting rejected for sex, while women get rejected for relationships.
Sex may be easy to women, and tehrefore worth a lot less than it is to men. But getting a desirable man to commit to her, thats the challenge and it often fails. this is why so many men crap out by desperately clinging to the skirt of any women showing any interest, it signals low desirability to them and also makes the man play the feminine part of the game, which is gay and therefore a turn off.

Men and women are complimentary, if women saw sex liek men do relationships would be completely impossible as women are always swamped with offers. Instead they will fixate on "their" guy even in casual flings and see all other men as unattractive.

>>33646795
>What are they supposed to do with that?
Enjoy life anyway instead of arguing with people about it? If there's a totally insolvent problem why should anyone care? I certainly don't and am happier for it. Are you telling me I should spend my free time being miserable and neurotic and never bother to do anything because women are retarded? Lmao, no thanks.

>>33646805
but none of this doesn't explain why doing productive and healthy things with your time is bad.

>>33646805
>Advice is supposed to be practical leverage. Practical leverage comes from accurate models. Accurate models give you predictive power. They are bound together.
>Now you're just letting the cat out of the bag.
How's that been working out for you doctor?

>>33646796
My entire life has gotten better, once I started assuming everyone was lying about something, and probably trying to manipulate me. Now I have outs for everything, and pin others to what I want.

I'm not giving you specifics to reinforce your hippie bullshit.

In low trust societies, you just get fucked when you come in good faith. I don't enjoy this, I'm just being honest on this anonymous underwater basket weaving forum.

You assholes just keep saying hippie dippy lovey dove bullshit that never works.

>>33646809
>different
Filtering a list is far easier than having no list. Thats different academicly. In reality all the power is in the filtering.

>>33646823
Relableing time wasting as productive healthy self-help is bad.

>>33646795
>The dark revelationis "you lost".Its just lame cope. Woe is me faggotry has been a thign since forever, the difference is that peopel like this would just get a smack on the head and be told to do stuff instead of whining. Now they form self-reinforcing circle jerks on the internet.
Theres also the fact that past abuse or a bad upbrining very often is refelcted in the relationshiups with the other gender or lack thereof.
A ton of incels are jsut packaging their psychological issues into some form of ideology that spares them confronting and fixing their anxieties, traumas or whetever the fuck is holding them back.

Theres of course a minority among them who have been truly hit with the ugly stick, but I suspect those are the most mellow ones, as coping with being an uggo is infinitely easier than dealing with the mental hell world the average incel is living in.

>>33646784
>be a manipulated piece of shit
>only meet other peices of shit or people with very heavy self esteem issues
> go on the internet and try to convince other people that your experience is totally normal , not your fault in any way and not caused by any flaws of your own.

Textbook example for incelling.I mean you COULD go to therapy or examine on your own what defect drives you to only be able to connect with others through manipulative beahviour. But hey, writing garbage on the internet is a top tier way to avoid that.

>>33646838
And arguing with people about how incels are right on the internet isn't time wasting how?

33646835
>meaningless blubbering thats supposed to make you sound smart while achieving the opposite

Don't @ me unless you have an actual response thats not just a waste of bandwith

>>33646827
Working fine.

Your alternative foundation is that it's luck, which takes away any agency you need to claim for self-improvement.

>>33646830
>I'm not giving you specifics to reinforce your hippie bullshit.
Uh huh. Withholding details definitely proves me wrong

>>33646846
It is a time waste.
Most fun is a time waste.
Beating you is fun.

I've never claimed to be efficiency-maxxing my time.

>>33646853
>Working fine.
Sounds good. I'll leave you to it then.

>>33646862
>It is a time waste.
I accept your concession.

>>33646855
It does prove you wrong.

I'm not giving you shit, and you sound petulant. That's not in your favor. Thats an example of the world I described. This is game of chiken 101 retard.

>>33646871
That's not the topic of debate, and its pathetic you're trying to reframe this as if it was.

>>33646792
>i'm not trying to make some deep philosophical dissertation on predictive powers.
That's what advice is

>>33646809
>Men and women are complimentary
In the ideal, and/or your imagination, which we are not in.

>>33646735
>fight against it with everything you have
That's the opposite of what I said.

>>33646899
I think he meant "walk away from the game", not "play the game harder"

>>33646840
Nta
That is written by a low agency lying woman. Manipluation is the foundation of all politics. Manipulation is just under the surface of every relationship on the face of the earth. Woman are constantly manipulating others, not just men.

The fairy tale loving relationship is a cartoon for children. There are always confluences of motivation.

>>33646893
No, in reality.This also means that men and women face different challenges in dating an dlife. And yes, getting bad sex or a boring relationship for relationships sake with just anyone is simply not amon the challenges of women. Deal with it.

>>33646922
>Manipluation is the foundation of all politics

If you are playing politics in your personal relationships, somethign is fundamentally wrong with you. When even someone like Machiavelli explicitely warns people of deploying the methods of Statecraft in their personal lives, you may get an idea that politics aka how to run a country has nothing to do with how to form a friendship or romantic relationship.

Your mindset makes you highly vulnerable to manipulative people, as you will tolerate their behaviour, play their games and include them in your life by telling yourself its normal.

>Woman are constantly manipulating others, not just men.
For some reason I now have a fairly good idea what your mom was like. Am I right?

>>33646923
We aren't at that ideal in reality, and your refusal to describe reality prevents any path to that ideal being identified and taken.

That applies to any goal not just this one. Your inability to describe reality prevents you from reaching any goal.

I'm not even sure what your tring to address anymore.

>>33646939
You're the one who childishly thinks all manipulation is the same. Grow up. It's an aspect at every scale, and denying it only damages what you do like that it is entangled with and supports.

>>33646939
>For some reason I now have a fairly good idea what your mom was like.
Oh yeah cuz thats totaly uncommon.

Don't you ever wonder why everyone in the face of the earth for all time say the same things about women?

>>33646939
>Your mindset makes you highly vulnerable to manipulative people, as you will tolerate their behaviour, play their games and include them in your life by telling yourself its normal.

Those people exist regardless of that anons perspective. People who can't see them are way more likely to be taken advantage of. They seek leverage so even the aware ones can't cut them off.

>>33647003
>Those people exist regardless of that anons perspective
Precisely. Thats why you exclude them from your personal at the first sign of bullshit.

>>33646955
We are at that ideal by default, due to the way men and women are biologically wired Liek women are into getting dominated in bed, and men are into dominating them just a s asimple example.

That doesn't mean that finding a partner is easy for either gender or goes without mistakes and disappointments. Incels are very similar to feminists who claim that bad sex is rape, when ending up with a guy who doesn't know what hes doing is simply a kind of disappointment taht women always have to face when meeting guys.

>>33647036
People who deny they exist can't identify them, and often have other pressures that interfere with cutting them off

>>33647036
>We are at that ideal by default
Sure there's biology pulling it back toward the ideal, but this civilization is built on defying nature. And we certaintly arent at any ideal by default, that's actually retarded.

>>33647190
>but this civilization is built on defying nature
Not really, no. For example, people in ages past understood very well that marriage was a purely economic deal tht had nothing to do with attraction or love. For this reason, cheating and whoring were widely tolerated as long as they were practiced with discretion and trhus did not openly defy the social contract.

>And we certaintly arent at any ideal by default, that's actually retarded.
The problem is humans being complex and blocking natural mechanisms through garbage beliefs. Incels, cuckservative bluepillers, simps,"polygamous" wokies for example. On the other hand, all past traumas , hang ups, issues with self esteem are also focussed an magnified in our relationships with the other gender.

We are already at this ideal because people will be naturally sorted to the partnes that fit them both physically and mentally. However, for the reasons above the mentally damaged and those that hold stupid beliefs will mostly end up with people who are their counterpart (law of attraction: You get what you give) , whcih will lead to a wide range of sucky relationships or simply no relationships at all as all potential parties involved are unable to form them.
Once you free yourself of all the garbage above and fulfill your natural role in the mating dance, natural mechanisms can sort you with someone who is equally functional.

I think I need to avoid looking at dating as really transactional. Its hard not to though because I am one of those men that find dating very very stressful. I know a lot of men find dating to be sort of like this annoying thing you have to do before you actually get a woman to sleep with you. I don't even necessarily want to bee line a woman sleeping with me. I want to get to know her legitimately. However, I find dating very stressful because I(as the man), have to plan the dates, potentially pick her up, pay for everything AND not make a wrong move otherwise its over. There isn't any leeway for mistakes and telling a woman that I am inexperienced is a fast track to get her to not like me. Then I look at what women are doing via dating and to me it just looks like a series of "yes"'s or "no"'s. The only thing they need to do is show up. Ontop of them getting to get away with making mistakes and potentially being cringe somehow. I have noticed that men have a very very high tolerance for women fucking up or even saying something off beat or something that misses the mark etc.