Thread 17927718

How in fuck did Western Marxism come to be entirely around petty moralism, identity poltics and largely reject dialectical materialist processes and materialism in general for vague concepts like "oppression", "equality" and what is "morally right" when this the sort of stuff that Marx and Engels themselves despised and created a scientific branch in opposition for.
Like honestly, could you imagine the Marx and Engels from reading their letters where they just constantly rip ruthlessly into the weirdos and losers of the Socialist movement at the time, seeing the state modern Western left?

>>17927718 (OP)
How is the pic bad exactly?

>>17927723
Marxism is materialist. Gender ideology is metaphysical and rejects the materialist reality of sex and biology. Marxism also has little care for "rights".

>>17927718 (OP)
>>17927718 (OP)
In the 1970-1980s, in light of the discoveries of soviet atrocities, the desindustrialisation and immigration, classical marxist parties lost their traditional userbase.
Simultaneously, new social democrat parties started appearing with a focus on channeling the youth’s revolt into political parties. These youth, although socialist in name, cared more about freeing themselves from social ane cultural norms they saw as archaic. Appealing to minorities and college-educated liberals and moderate, these went on to form the new political left fueled more by identity politics than the economy.

The whole «cultural marxism» conspiracy theory is true to an extent -- french thinkers and the frankfurt school did have an effect on the perception of social issues, but these were ultimately relatively shallow politically and without much reach.

>>17927718 (OP)
Well what kind of branding would you give Marxism in 2025?
You can't be edgy because fascism does that better, so you adopt moralism.
You won't go far pushing class warfare because people do indeed find identity politics to be more meaningful and relatable than class, so you turn to identity politics.

>>17927718 (OP)
Western Marxism got hijacked by bourgeois academics who replaced class struggle with idpol bullshit because it is easier to whine about pronouns than smash capitalism. Marx and Engels would've eviscerated these clowns.

They cared about material conditions, not moralistic handwringing. Today's *left* is a fucking joke, more obsessed with woke scolding than revolution. Pathetic.

>>17927718 (OP)
Look at these bourgeois barista cunts. How is that blue collar.

>>17927732
>Marxism also has little care for "rights".
It does though

>>17927753
>>17927756
Why are you bitching. There is nothing wrong with those people supporting labour and union rights. Feels like you want to create problems out of thin air.

No one actually read Marx, he's the left wing version of Nietzsche or the Bible,. Not his enemies. Most modern leftists read Kapital or Critique of the Gotha Program very poorly and stop there out of fear. No one actually reads him so they have no clue that they guy would have more in common with the average 4channer or Hitler before he would with modern worker orgs that use his analysis as a foundation.

>>17927766
>Marx was just a shitposter like you and me
Yeah that's why he was retarded

>>17927718 (OP)
do you have any actual argument or is this whole thread just centered around your assumption that marx and engels would have an issue with trannies wanting equal rights?

>>17927782
Yes, Bakunin is even more right leaning and yet I cannot bring myself to read his stuff because he writes like a genuine redditor.

>>17927788
Just because you understand what these people were saying doesn't mean they were right wing. Keep in mind their ideology is based on lies. These people are philosophical snake oil salesman, midwits sometimes. The difference between left and right is that the left wing is usually full of liars

>>17927766
https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/poverty-philosophy/

>>17927813
>First published 1913
Engels fabricated letters from Marx to himself, this one is also probably a fabrication

>>17927766
Most of the American right seems to have ingested Gramsci's theory of hegemony through osmosis and instinctively have come comprehend that the Frankfurt School was riding a direct attack on their conspiracy- and scam-based business model.
Most of the European left were forced into serious soul-searching during the 1920s, when workers improved their material well-being through political action. That wasn't something Marx predicted for the future. Led to Gramsci becoming more interested in other forms of hegemony and the whole left Fascist movement that proposed ways of overcoming capitalism not wholly reliant on pure worker's orgs.

>>17927831
>Most of the American right seems to have ingested Gramsci's theory of hegemony through osmosis and instinctively have come comprehend that the Frankfurt School was riding a direct attack on their conspiracy- and scam-based business model.
wut

>>17927718 (OP)
>Like honestly, could you imagine the Marx and Engels from reading their letters where they just constantly rip ruthlessly into the weirdos and losers of the Socialist movement at the time, seeing the state modern Western left?
Engels would support the queer shit for sure, he wanted to abolish the family unit anyway.
Marx would 100% be a chud ranting about jews and jeets if he were around today, he's that type of character.

>>17927718 (OP)
How does Western Marxism reject materialism? Oppression and equality are usually analyzed in completely material terms such as earnings.
>

they should also read Lenin's "Left wing communism - an infantile disorder" where he attacks the anarchist and free love factions in the early USSR

>>17927831
The Frankfurt school were Leninists and Trotskyists kicked out of Europe coping with communism failing and sought to influence the US politically and intellectually rather than through overt revolution.

They were politically irrelevant in the US outside of possibly adding to the conflagration that was the psycho social sexual ethnic politics on the left.

Now the kind of people attracted to idpol are the type that in the USSR were condemned as social parasites and put in work camps. Practices like homosexuality officially didn't exist and were considered a vestige of bourgeois decadence.

>>17927853
Wrong. Communism has always been about niggers and trannies.

>>17927809
Bakunin was lying when he said the jews need to be driven out of Europe?

>>17927856
Hating Jews doesn't make somebody left or right wing. It's just racism.

>>17927718 (OP)
there was a massive european push towards "non-soviet" marxism (ultra left movements) in the 80s/90s which was encouraged/co-opted by the west because they were essentially just circlejerks that did fucking nothing. to this day these movements are still around and are just as ineffective a-la zizek, badiou, etc, they engage in no real aspect of the struggle bar intentionally obscure language word-games. stalin was warning people about this shit in the 1920s about the german ultra-left refusing to appeal to the broad masses

>>17927859
Rare intelligent /his/ post.

>>17927848
There were feminist, gay, and free love movements in the first decade of the USSR which declared the family unit a bourgeois institution until Stalin suppressed them.

>>17927753
>Western Marxism got hijacked by bourgeois academics who replaced class struggle with idpol bullshit because it is easier to whine about pronouns than smash capitalism
Because nobody actually gives a shit about class struggle if you live in a prosperous first world country

>>17927877
This. Even muh unions don't really care about anything more than getting inflation-pegged wage increases for teachers/nurses or whatever.

>>17927887
Stop doing reddit thing and bringing epstein list without a reason, it's a slander psyop to discredit trump and anyone who supports him. You have been warned.

>>17927883
Unions in the US did a really good job driving people into bankruptcy and being generally pseudo criminal elements. Nothing like having your pension used to build a casino

>>17927894
>REDDITREDDITREDDIT
seething child rapist cuckservative freak go type up another essay about muh leftists hahaha

>>17927877
I literally seethe more about sexhavers I know from high school than about Jeff Bezos or whatever.

>>17928031
incelism is just sexual marxism (like there is a cultural one)

>>17928070
More like too much sexual marxism. turn sex into something like a commodity and suddenly everybody's fat instead of laid

>>17928070
Yes, it's the more relevant kind of Marxism for our times.
Maybe if the economy collapses economic Marxism will become a thing again but this thing has proven itself to be extremely durable and nobody really knows how it works. Like everybody expected the economy to collapse because of Trump's tarrifs but literally nothing happened

>>17927894
Oh noes, the guy on 4chan says I’ve been warned, must hide now aaaaa!!!!

>>17928091
the economy was supposed to collapse during covid but the fed kept it propped up, now when the collapse comes it will be even worse

>>17928110
Honestly the American economy was meant to collapse like a million times over and each time they keep outrunning it they just ensure the collapse will be worse and worse.

Westerners just happen to misunderstand a lot of things

>>17927860
>stalin was warning people about this shit in the 1920s about the german ultra-left refusing to appeal to the broad masses
I mean if "appealing to the broad masses" is the criteria then liberalism and Pride festivals sort of won decisively over Stalinism. Yikes!
https://youtu.be/afHv9seHuoA

>>17927718 (OP)
>How in fuck did Western Marxism

People will tell you a lot of things, but it was mostly the commodification of Marxism/Socialism as a brand that did it. I think the specific term for it is Champaign Socialism. For a while the Federal Government was mortified of Socialists, Marxists, and they would capture people, arrest people, survey actors, artists, intellectuals in university, for communist sympathetic thought, and this in turn cultivated a really powerful anti-authoritarian counter culture. Nowadays they just give them rainbow Oreos and make sure Hasan Piker doesn't get banned off of Twitch. The whole social process has very much been outsourced and astroturfed to "others", in an almost pornographic fashion insomuch that the individual doesn't feel any desire to actually do anything: they watch a streamer, they donate a dollar to some "ethical company", and then they move on with their lives - or until they get upset again.

>>17928091
>Maybe if the economy collapses economic Marxism will become a thing again but this thing has proven itself to be extremely durable and nobody really knows how it works.
I'll tell you.

Consumer capitalism thrives on differentiation. Markets don't just sell products, they sell lifestyles, identities, and symbolic belonging. Identity politics highlights difference (gender, race, sexuality, religion, disability, etc.) and consumer culture seizes on those differences to produce markets. LGBTQ+ Pride merchandise, women-empowerment marketing, "Black-owned" brand labels.

But I also think it's sort of inevitable for that to win and take over the planet and all resistance to is doomed in the long run. We were promised a Blade Runner future and we're getting it, and getting mad about it is like getting mad about the extras walking around in the background who have blue hair. Just wait until we get bio-modifications in the 2060s or whatever is coming. And sexual politics isn't really so revolutionary. Women's liberation could be because it involved the domination of men over women, and also the exploitation of women in the economy. Women could be enslaved in places. That said, I think a lot of the appeal of this stuff is wrapped up in "authenticity." It's like, "I can define my own values" and not be chained to traditional feudal norms. I can come up with my own customizable personal identity like a video game character creation screen, same goes for all you:
https://youtu.be/c86t8hoVw8E

Also when I say "the same goes for all of you," that goes for communism as well. It's a fortunate coincidence the anon above me pointed out how that can also be turned into a commodity, like a persona or an aesthetic. It becomes another identity you "buy into" by giving money to these streamers.

>>17927718 (OP)
It was one of the degenerate shit pushed by those brainwashed in 60-70s by soviet propaganda in US universities, along with nigger rights, and then it spread like cancer in the countries it was targeted.

>>17927760
>uhh why are you complaining that some fucking retards are hogging the spotlight and diverting attention?
shut the fuck up dumbass, prorities matter, and no, I don't want to hear you bitch about me being homophobic/transphobic for pointing out the fact that you leftist firstie retards talk about ANYTHING but actual working class struggles

>>17928070
There's also white nationalism which is just white marxism (Hanania is right about this)

>>17927877
It feels like leftists in general tend to vastly underestimate how many people in western first world countries consider themselves "well-off" and satisfied with their lot.
I once talked with a dude making hardly ~€30k per year living in a three room apartment, and he unironically considered himself to be one of the people "commies would target" if they were in power.

>>17928755
>for pointing out the fact that you leftist firstie retards talk about ANYTHING but actual working class struggles
I understand finding transgender people weird. But it's also like, a group of them at a Pride parade somewhere with a pro-labor banner, so they are actually doing that. And the reason they're doing that is because they're trying to influence the other people at the Pride parade to support labor.

>>17927718 (OP)
Capitalism won. Free markets delivered wealth and living standards so a working class uprising now seems kind of stupid. So commies moved on to nigger and faggot shit.

>>17927759
It doesn't, that was the point of Marxism that set it apart from other forms of Socialism. It has no basis in moralism or "rights" at all, it was set in understanding historical processes through a material lens using the scientific process. It's perfectly "Marxist" to claim that Feudalism will likely be the next stage after current Capitalism, if the material conditions lean more towards Feudalism.

>>17929020
>It has no basis in moralism or "rights" at all, it was set in understanding historical processes through a material lens using the scientific process.
I agree with that. I think it's useful to think of it like a scientist or something.

>It's perfectly "Marxist" to claim that Feudalism will likely be the next stage after current Capitalism, if the material conditions lean more towards Feudalism.
Yes, on the condition that it's a big if, though. I do see a lot of people moralizing about weird gender people but not analyzing what material conditions contributed to it, without moralization. I don't know what Marx's own personal opinions were about various things but I do know he had zero nostalgia for pre-capitalist social relations and predicted that capital would transform the entire world in an IRREVERSIBLE manner. This of course creates all kinds of vibes:
https://youtu.be/ujGriZmmRP4

>>17927859
My wife is Israeli.
Literally I think there is no issue at all in fucking despising the culture of certain people. You can't say for example, there is no issue with gypsies, when their entire culture is to be completely anti-social lumpenprole scum who even will stab their own in the back if they try to just live a normal life with a normal job instead of scamming and stealing and drug/human trafficking.
Even my wife will straight up say that most Jews will happily fuck over Goyim if it serves the wider Jewish community, according to her there is a joke in Israel "Never trust goyim, but especially never trust a Jew" and there is also a "success formula" (even has a word, I forgot it) which is basically you should fuck over everyone and get your own in every possible situation, as long as it doesn't overall harm the Jewish community.
Also interacting with Jewish people more and more now, even I see shocking amounts of Jewish chauvninism, supremacism and just all round shitty fucking scheming behaviour. Jews absolutely seem to LOVE little leagalist, bad faith malicious compliance while screwing you over and gaining little for themselves going completely against the spirit of the agreement/situation. It reminds me of fucking Eunuchs in Chinese historical dramas. Had several times I was completely fucked over by several scheming Jewish associates of my wife that didn't even really gain them anything but maybe a few hundred dollars, meanwhile burning bridges with me and my wife.
Sorry, but while hating people JUST for their ethnicity straight up may be "bigotry", I don't think it's completely unjustified to make judgements on people based on their culture, especially when that culture is ingroup biased and has extremely antisocial, narcissistic abusive elements, like seemingly Judaism, and Gypsy/Travellerism does.

I think people should read this from Marx and Engels:

>Once man is recognised as the essence, the basis of all human activity and situations, only “Criticism” can invent new categories and transform man himself into a category and into the principle of a whole series of categories, as it is doing now. It is true that in so doing it takes the only road to salvation that has remained for frightened and persecuted theological inhumanity. History does nothing, it “possesses no immense wealth”, it “wages no battles”. It is man, real, living man who does all that, who possesses and fights; “history” is not, as it were, a person apart, using man as a means to achieve its own aims; history is nothing but the activity of man pursuing his aims.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/holy-family/ch06_2.htm

>>17927759
Rights aren't materialist
Heck if you use the concept of "good" and "evil" you aren't being materialist.

>>17927753
>Today's *left* is a fucking joke, more obsessed with woke scolding than revolution. Pathetic.
Even modern Leftypol is like this. Troons seemingly took over the mod positions, and now weird fetish and sex shit is seemingly allowed to be spammed everywhere, along with Troons hijacking every other thread to be about themselves, and if you dare even mildly push back against it, you get banned for being a "reactionary".
Literally copped a ban for posting the Chinese Communist Party position on Troon social contagion simply because someone was posting that China loves troon shit so it's 100% justified to spam their Fetlife bullshit.
http://www.moe.gov.cn/jyb_xxgk/xxgk_jyta/jyta_jiaoshisi/202101/t20210128_511584.html
So even positing the position of the worlds most successful Marxist and Communist organization, will get you banned, if it goes against their shitlib troon delusions.

>>17927718 (OP)
Mind broken by the CIA and buck broken by the fall of the wall. Fuckers are simping for Far Right dictators now to score any amount of wins against "da evul imperialists n'shieet"

>>17929028
>there is also a "success formula" (even has a word, I forgot it)
Combina? It means bending the rules to get what you want.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-combina-of-israeli-society/

>Also interacting with Jewish people more and more now, even I see shocking amounts of Jewish chauvninism, supremacism and just all round shitty fucking scheming behaviour.
Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is true, but the people who hate them see some of their own traits reflected in them. Like just look at these white nationalists, they're constantly backstabbing each other. There was even one who pulled a crypto rugpull with a "Jew free" meme coin recently.

>like seemingly Judaism, and Gypsy/Travellerism does
They have some similarities and not just the music. Well, I think the point of Marx's "On the Jewish Question" was not to go after the Jews in particular as the problem, so to solve the problem, one simply gets rid of the Jews. It's to draw out a critique of the particular to the general. The Jewish spirit has become the general spirit of the modern world. It makes it so EVERYONE is fucking each other over.

Capitalism confronts people as an endless array of scams and ripoffs. Trying to bend the rules or cheat the system is often the only way to survive.

>>17929041
Note how this happened just COINCIDENTALLY when Occupy Protests were gaining steam. Successfully managed to derail the movement with woke bullshit. It continues today.

>>17929041
>http://www.moe.gov.cn/jyb_xxgk/xxgk_jyta/jyta_jiaoshisi/202101/t20210128_511584.html
If they're trying to prevent the feminization of male youth, it's not working. Well, Chinese culture is different. The CCP likes this stuff:
https://youtu.be/QkNWznCyfGo

>>17927718 (OP)
One of the things I cannot stand about the modern left, is the glazing of criminals and schizo violent anti-social homeless and minorities.

Violent criminals are always right, as long as they are homeless or a minority. Then if they try to rape a woman, it was the woman who was at fault.

Ana Kasparian was almost gang raped by Homeless, and because she reported it to the cops, she got called a fascist and became basically persona non grata for much of the left, because "ACAB".

It's has got to the point, if you save a woman from rape, and the rapist is a black schizo homeless person, there is a 90% chance that huge swaths of left will basically be protesting, that you get 6 consecutive life sentences for "hate crime assault".

You even saw with the Chaz. They let it become a homeless, criminal infested shit hole, that terrorized locals with gang crime, and eventually ended up shooting 2 teens for doing a burnout then covering for the murderers who got away with it to this day.

Why is "Women should be safe to walk at night" controversial? But it is for the left, if that means actually reigning in homeless and criminal psychopaths.

>>17929049
Asians love their shota, even if it's chicks cosplaying as it.

>>17928450
Yeah. Western Communism is just a counter-culture movement like Emo or Punk or Hippy, just this time as a edgy political LARP.
""Marxism"" means just whatever purity test Tumblr sets to be in the ingroup, and being able to bully and "cancel" normies for not being as morally pure as you.
Notice we don't have a modern "Counter-culture" like emo or hippy etc. Because Communist is it.
Pic related is what most modern online "Communists" would be if it was 2005.

>>17929055
It's an interesting video about what these conservative-communist regimes actually put up as an ideal. It's not an edgelord thing at all. It's very good boy, work hard, get straight A's at school, become an engineer. Eat your vegetables. It's not so bad as a political regime, but there are people who get into the communist thing and glaze China who would become disillusioned with it, I'm pretty sure, just because it's actually very square.

>>17929053
Well yeah. I think Ana Kasparian is a hack but most people don't want to live in fear of crazy schizos.

>>17929049
>Well, Chinese culture is different. The CCP likes this stuff
Dressing castrated gays up as chicks has been part of chinese culture for a long time.
https://youtu.be/jrF4-Grr2us?si=Dl21tO2U7OmmLX-k
This is a guy. They are not seen as women though, just giga fags.

>>17928457
>Consumer capitalism thrives on differentiation. Markets don't just sell products, they sell lifestyles, identities, and symbolic belonging. Identity politics highlights difference (gender, race, sexuality, religion, disability, etc.) and consumer culture seizes on those differences to produce markets. LGBTQ+ Pride merchandise, women-empowerment marketing, "Black-owned" brand labels.
PBS before they became complete shit did 2 great documentaries on this, Consuming Kids and Generation Like. The modern LGBT cult was literally born out of marketing agencies and arguably it was marketing agencies and consumerism, more than any form of actual activism that got LGBT rights passed.

>>17929041
>we are the reason lesbians have rights
I guess, as in yes, it was mostly men who granted Lesbians rights? But what the fuck are trannies thinking when they claim insane misogynistic shit like this?

>>17927718 (OP)
Marxism of the past is essentially dead, and was kind of dead for a century because even idealists realized that Marx was essentially utopian.
Sexual rights thing is whatever.

>>17927718 (OP)
Engels supported queer and feminist movements and and abolishment of the nuclear patriarchal family structure in the fucking XIX century

Marx never wrote about any of these and his disdain for Jews was solely on a material level

Sorry infracel but is it you who's the deviant here, not the so-called "western liberals", Lenin legalized homosexuality and before Stalin (a crypto-fascist subhuman who ruined the USSR) there were loads of queer theory and feminist works being done

EVEN if Marx and Engels were 100% chuds (which they weren't) it still would not justify mysoginy and queerphobia within the left solely because Marxism is a science not a dogma, whatever Marx and Engels believed are not holy scriptures, too bad your christcuck reactionary peabain is uncapable of understanding that

However even your premises fall because Cuba (one of the two remaining socialist states of the world) is the most lgbt friendly nation of the planet

Oh and stop coping about leftypol banning you, you still have your shitty discord server where your fellow nazbols can lift the hairy balls of that loser midget

>>17929041
T. Hazcel coping his cryptofascist queerphobic cult is rightfully banned in leftypol

it was manufactured by the elites because of Occupy Wallstreet. they sent homos and other weirdos to detract from the anti-Capitalist message

They needed people to waste energy and believe it's some culture war instead of a class war

>>17929227
OWS was communist in the first place so of course there were dysgenics. What they won't tell you is Biden paid those dysgenics nearly 200 billion dollars

>>17927718 (OP)
1) identity politics is just means to divide up the society and break up a functioning society
2) oppression olympics is just a means to reduce people down to identities, for the purpose of division
3) equality of opportunity is abandoned infavor of equity of outcome
4) "morally right" is primarily concerned with oppression olympics winners

>>17927718 (OP)
Modern leftism is basically chaos worship
Anything that brings chaos (criminals, trannies, gay marriage, the blaack race...etc) is to be defended.
Anything that brings order (the police, the traditional family model, the white race...) is to be attacked

>>17929204
Engels was an idealist who thought true love would blossom past family structures dictated by alliance marriages in capitalism with his book and you didn't read it.
>Marx never wrote about it.
He did, or had others write about it. He literally laughed at moralism.
>EVEN if Marx and Engels were 100% chuds (which they weren't) it still would not justify mysoginy and queerphobia within the left solely because Marxism is a science not a dogma, whatever Marx and Engels believed are not holy scriptures, too bad your christcuck reactionary peabain is uncapable of understanding that
You will never be a real Marxist.
>However even your premises fall because Cuba (one of the two remaining socialist states of the world) is the most lgbt friendly nation of the planet
Cuba's private sector just overtook the state owned one and is on its way to liberalizing.

Socialism will continue to fail if it does not accept some reactionary ideas outside of economics are a necessity.
Blow it out your neo bussy tranny.

>>17929227
So true!

>>17927834
The culture war they're waging is a Gramsci fork. The right are literally beating their drum to the tune of commie theory.
As for the Frankfurt School - they researched the formation and mechanisms of conspiracy theories and right-wing movements, putting them into direct opposition to the Republican-adjacent scam-industrial complex.

>>17929388
Blackrock bought up all the pussy?

>>17929204
>abolishment of the nuclear patriarchal family structure in the fucking XIX century
Marx nor engels talk about "abolition" the word is correctly sublimate. Also the "abolition" Marx and Engels refered too already occured with public schooling, divorce, single parent households etc. You forget the family Marx and Engels were talking about, were largely the hangovers of the feudal order and early industralization where kids were basically slaves of the family, the wife was property and kids were shoved into factories and mines.

>>17929204
>Marxism is a science not a dogma,
Yes, and Troon gender woo has literally no basis in materialist anything and is completely incoherent and contradictory to the point troons can't even defend basic positions without breaking down into "WHY ARE YOU SUCH A TERF, MUH SUICIDE RATES" whining.
If you faggots were actually confident in your positions, you would debate, but even facebook brained boomer TERFs trounce you guys in debate within mere seconds every single time.

>>17929045
I think the issue is they think Jews are way smarter and more competent than they actually are.

>>17929045
Don't kid yourself. Most wignats are brown people and self-hating Jews.

>>17929028
Nic ChatGPT post.

>>17927840
>Engels wanted to abolish the family unit anyway.

No he didn't.

>>17929190
>Marx was essentially utopian.

Marxism is inherently anti-Utopian.

>>17928928
It’s more that people (in america at least) associate communism with blind genocide of people, so the guy is porbably afraid he is going to get hauled off one night for no reason or because some neighbor didnt like him.

>>17928928
>he unironically considered himself to be one of the people "commies would target" if they were in power.
Well he ain't far off. Most people killed in the Great Leap Forward were poor rural peasants.

>>17927753
Also a lot of these people don't want to examine class because by their own stupid "privilege" metrics they would likely be class privileged. Libshits thoroughly indoctrinated on idpol want to rack up as many oppression points as possible so as to be the top of the purity pyramid, and the idea that a poor hetero white man could be lower on the totem pole by virtue of his class is completely anathema to their world view.
Basically, most western "leftists" don't believe in Marxist ideals anymore than rightwingers, they're sanctimonious twats trying to virtue signal.
>>17928450
>>17929061
This is another big part of the problem

>>17929185
>PBS before they became complete shit did 2 great documentaries on this ... The modern LGBT cult was literally born out of marketing agencies and arguably it was marketing agencies and consumerism, more than any form of actual activism that got LGBT rights passed.
That's interesting yeah. I don't like to get personal, because people take you less seriously, but I will tell you that I saw this myself. I saw these floats sponsored by giant banks roll down the street and thought "yeah, we're gonna win." I'm not saying banks are great, but just in terms of seeing how this was going to go, the simple underlying economics was going to lead to same-sex marriage legalized throughout the U.S., because same-sex marriage leads to more couples settling down and taking out mortgages from those banks. So it's really about turning gay couples into homeowners. Same-sex marriage is actually rather bourgeois in that way.

The one gay activist campaign that was probably most effective was around AIDS in the early 90s. There were groups that were confrontational but had an achievable demand which was to increase federal funding for medical research, and out of that came drugs that keep you alive. That was a life-or-death issue. What happens on the left a lot is you get these "multi-issue" campaigns where everybody throws their own abstract cause into the mix rather than focusing on really doing [insert achievable demand X] and organizing around it.

There's a meme people like to post sometimes that shows OWS and then a Pride parade with a Chase bank float in it, and tries to say one ended the other. But I don't like that meme because the pic of the Pride parade with the Chase bank float was actually taken before OWS happened. I don't think there's any relation, but I do think "sexual politics" are totally compatible with consumer capitalism. Anywhow he's a gay biker club from the 1960s.

A problem OWS had too is that it was rather vague. It didn't have a concrete demand to organize around, but a populist "we are the 99%." Effective at growing rapidly but also prone to these "multi-issue" problems where the fruitcakes start showing up and saying that everyone must bow down before a disabled Navajo lesbian (I'm trying to come up with something really stereotypical). Also conspiracy theorists and other crackpots. At the time, the biggest line of attack from the corporate media was "we don't know what they're protesting for." It's like saying you're against "greed." Any bourgeois politician can also say they are against greed.

The difference within the anti-war protests during the Vietnam War was to say "troops out now" (that could happen) and "end imperialism," but even Nixon could say he was against imperialism. He was against Soviet imperialism! Or, America isn't imperialist, what are you talking about, that was the British and the French and of course we're against that.

>>17930037
Professional activists by their nature cannot actually solve the problems they protest against, because much like a soldier without a war they become useless. They need more issues to fight to justify their continued existence. That's why they have vague immaterial goals like "fight racism", not having any real conditions for victory is the entire point

>>17927753
There's also the fact that the socialist states of the 20th century were ridiculous oppressive shitholes and this is such a PR disaster that it's nearly impossible to bounce back from.
Add to that the fact that communists themselves disagree on how bringing forth communism would look like. It's hardly a very convincing ideology when its purveyors don't know or can't reach common ground on how to implement it.
And yes, class struggle is not that compelling of an idea in the wealthy West. In famine-ridden Imperial Russia, yes. In consumerist America, not quite.
So it's not surprising at all that leftism as a whole sidelined or abandoned communism in favor of identity politics.

>>17930054
It's also how they get into bed with liberals through non-profit activist organizations. It has been a problem for Democrats too because they want to win elections but they're under pressure from these activists to take vague positions about social causes which the Republicans also exploit in the other direction.

If people are just complaining that gay people having carnivals are the reason that we're not having class politics revive, then I'm not interested. I'm pretty sure that stuff is way more popular than communism.

But where this weird multi-issue stuff comes in is if you're trying to do union organizing and one of these activists is like "we need to focus on queer workers." Basically. I find that very suspect. I've actually heard that. But if a group of them at a company somewhere form their own group with their own demand, that's something they can do. I'm not interested in telling people what to do. It's like black people forming their own group and focusing on an issue. It's not a big deal. But it doesn't necessarily follow if we're leftists that we have to say "end racism" and give a landback acknowledgement out of some obligatory moral requirement if we form a group and work on something, or if we work at the same factory and organize a strike and walk out.

>>17929880
>Libshits thoroughly indoctrinated on idpol want to rack up as many oppression points as possible so as to be the top of the purity pyramid,
This is why every left leaning white girl has a bio that sounds like they have every disability under the sun. Also why you see like 1/3rd of zoomer girls walking around these days in canes or in wheel chairs.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4XOZPGg_os
Look at how many wheelchairs and canes in the background you can spot in this video lmao.

>>17930037
There were supposed to be demands, but the Anarchist working group were able to effectively hijack the top of the movement with Ketchup, Sprite, Wedes etc, they then purged the organized labour and Marxist groups and basically descended occupy into the joke LARP it became.
They did eventually release demands though
>Create an economy in harmony with nature by
>Researching, developing and implementing economic models that pursue thriving, abundant and prosperous outcomes for humanity and life — growing beyond the dichotomy of unsustainable and sustainable development. These economic models must be based on sound ethical assumptions and observed individual and market behavior through behavioral economics and econometrics
>Implementing and improving community currencies, barter, sharing, and trade systems
>Building the support and precedence for local and large scale production of renewable energy and food resources
>Eliminating financial/resource speculation that supports the current economy at the expense of future generations
>Learning from and empowering indigenous people in the transition to an economy in harmony with nature — as we
>Make NYC a pioneer of urban farming, renewable energy, grass roots urban/rural exchange, quantitative economic policy and indigenous leadership
Yeah, not a single mention of fucking JOBS WAGES OR HOMES.
This is why every serious Socialist movement sidelined Anarkiddies every fucking time. Literally wrecking LARPers. Somehow Anarkids have the most social cache in the left as well in the west, which is just pathetic.

>>17930054
This is exactly why they started massively slippery sloping hard and fast with Trans/Xenogender/nonbinary/transitioning kids etc stuff. It's basically an endless well of goalpost shifting because there is always a new battle to be waged when your movement is defined by LGBT RP communities on Tumblr filled with 14 year olds.

Because fundamentally all communistic (i.e marxist states) regimes gained power by playing on the emotional disgruntlements of peasantry selling them the pretense of equality in order to coerce them to turning over everything to the new, totally grassroots, government. Moreover it encourages everyone acting as a mass and state wide compliance to what said government instates. Thus it naturally follows that hypersensitive, appearance oriented virtue signallers, attention whores, or faggots who by and large fantasize to being a victim and blame freedom for the world not appeasing said sensitivites, buy into the same communistic dogma about "liberation" that fooled the peasants of old. Also worth mentioning that the USSR, the main one associated were fairly areligious. Whether Marx himself wrote about this is irrelevant as he is naturally associated with communism as a whole.

>>17931204
>I believe western propaganda

lol ok. maybe read something that wasn't written by an american judeoboomer

>>17928470
Reminds me of this quote from disco elysium
>Capital has the ability to subsume all critiques into itself. Even those who would critique capital end up reinforcing it instead.
it's a real trvthnvke

>>17927732
>Gender ideology is metaphysical and rejects the materialist reality of sex and biology

Not true, it acutally works with it. It is about reconciling two impulses, a Christian-style sympathy for the weak and material, scientific reality.

There are people with a codition where they want to be members of the opposite sex. A metaphysical interpretation of this would be claiming the existence of souls which has a sex of itself. A rejection of materialist reality would be claiming that biological sex doesn't exist and by will you could transform your body, which would be insane.

Gender as a concept doesn't have anything to do with spirituality or metaphysics of that sort. It literally is just a redefinition of words. They just redefined "man" and "woman" as a social categories (meaning something closer to masculine and feminime), wherein one may be a member of either of these categories regardless of biological sex, the existence of which is not denied. Basically they wanted to include trans people in the category of man/woman to make them feel good, but they didn't want to step away from scientific materialism so they made new terms (including gender, a social category, as oppossed to sex, a biological category), so they can be men/women because now those words have new definitions. So biological sex is usually referred to as male/female, and you don't really hear trans women called female.

Imagine it like this: "mother" and "father" colloquially means two people who had sex that resulted in a pregnancy and a birth of a child. Now let's say society becomes super aware of adoptions, and there is a movement for people adopting kids to be recognized as parents, there is a stupid discourse on the definition of a mother and father etc. So academics define "mother", "father" etc. broadly as "people taking care of a child" regardless of genetic relations, while the term for biological parents becomes something like "begetter."

>>17931520
Modern Gender ideology rejects biological sex, has for a long time, "Truscum" has been a major insult in the scene for as long as TERF.
You can see in video here troons rejecting biological sex.
https://youtu.be/s4XOZPGg_os?si=6rrh5zfdPbkQa8N7
Another is that gender norms, way people act etc are clearly tied to sex in many ways, even newborn boys and girls, literally act differently, based on their sex. Troons also love to completely ignore Socialization through life, that someone who is raised mostly as a boy, can just decide, then LARP as female, which is absurd, and why Warhammer stores are filled with Troons, while women won't step in those places if their life depended on it.
Troons love to play semantics, sure, but the biological link between sex and gender is pretty defined in science and rejecting the very real material reality of biological sex, but also the socialization that comes from being raised another gender, is completely ignored by troons.
There are also tonnes of issues with the movement, they love to contradict themselves, non-binary being largely contradictory to their positions (with non-binary being more correct position imo), they love to ignore AGP despite it being a massive part of Troon movement, they claim children have fully formed sexual and self-identity and then they have massive grooming movements like egging, gay conversion therapy rhetoric, bizarre clearly sexual stuff like "gender euphoria" when you are rubbing your "girldick" in a woman's bathroom.
The Troon movement is genuinely batshit. It's a mixture of BPDs, Gooner autists and Tumblr brainwashed cultists.
Another point to make is we don't treat dysphoria anywhere else by reinforcing the dysphoria, we don't cut off the limbs of someone with BIID or we don't give Ozempic to the pre-Troon social contagion, Anorexia. Why is it that "Gender dysphoria" is the only form of dysphoria we reinforce? Because they successfully tied it to the LGB movement. That's it.

>>17931502
Do you believe Gorbachev? He visited the USA and was shown an American grocery store and thought the US was faking it because food was so plentiful. So he snuck out and visited another grocery store only to find out they were all like that.

>>17931779
Gorbachev was a retarded Westaboo literally out to destroy the USSR. He nuk'd it's GDP by 40% while handing over all state powers to fanatical libertarians and Neolibs while telling the media to shit on everything to do with the Soviets (hit at marxist leninism, hit at lenin, hit at marx, hit at plekhanov, hit at social democracy etc)
The guy handed over a clearly forged document to Poland, blaming the USSR for Katyn despite the document blamed katyn on a agency which literally did not exist at the time. This document is the only real proof the Soviets did Katyn.
Gorbachev was a literal traitor retard. He plan was to destroy Socialism and turn the USSR into a Neoliberal state, Yeltsin just came in and assfucked him even harder, by pulling the RFSFR out of the USSR immediately, causing the entire thing to collapse.

>>17931795
Also just to add, the USSR literally had supermakets. In fact Eliseevsky was one of the oldest supermarkets on earth.

>>17931802
They did they were just shitty compared to ones in the US. They also had bread lines. Famines. But hey, at least everyone was equally poor and hungry! (Except for the leadership)

>>17931520
Kill yourself

>>17931812
Only had famines at the start, which were common for Russia and Eastern Europe in general, and the bread lines were literally the result of Gorbachev's retarded reforms and sabotage fucking the entire economy.
If the US's economy dropped 40% overnight, then there would be breadlines as well.

>>17931825
>Breadlines in the USSR occurred from the 1920s to 1991, especially during:
>1932–33 – Famine from collectivization (Holodomor).
>1941–47 – WWII and postwar famine.
>1970s–1991 – Economic stagnation and chronic shortages.
>They reflected systemic food shortages throughout Soviet history.

Note that the last period of large amounts of breadlines was even before Gorbachev allegedly ruined the economy.

the fact that marxism in the east had the same role as liberalism in the west is fricking mindblowing...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Marxism

>>17927753
>Western Marxism got hijacked by bourgeois academics
Lol as opposed to what? Marxism is a bourgeois academic ideology to its core. The reality is that Marx's """""scientific""""" predictions never came true so they only options were to move the goalpost or admit that he was wrong. Western Marxist chose the later and redefined what the proles and bourgeois were and then from there it kind of got out of their grasp.

Now, Marxism essentially means anti-white agitation, all combined with a psycho-sexual bent to it.

>>17927718 (OP)
karl marx wanted to destroy civilization this is clearly mentioned in his articles.

>>17931825
>Mass Starvation is killing millions of people...and thats a good thing
Communist need to be extinguished

>>17931802
>>17931808
nigga aint no normal place has bitches posing for stocked shelves, let it go bruv

>>17927732
And that image literally has labor unions mentioned which are the most effective organization for materialist gains

>>17927723
They are gross and ugly retards who want to promote corrosive and ugly culture at best and pedophilic hyper sexualism at worse. Communist are all ugly and disgusting slobs and "queer culture" which is integral to it now is just so creepy and gross.

You cant really discuss this in polite society, even most conservative spaces, because its so seeminly mean spirited, but its the blunt truth. Ugly freaks who want retarded policies put in place by law are bad.

>>17931520
>regardless of biological sex, the existence of which is not denied
>So biological sex is usually referred to as male/female, and you don't really hear trans women called female.

I have seen trans """women""" claim they have periods and ovaries, they're fucking nuts and absolutely claim bio sex is transphobic

>>17932908
What's low IQ argument is that?
Conservatards/MAGAtards are often just as fat and ugly as american leftists.

>>17927747
great answer

>>17927840
>Marx would 100% be a chud ranting about jews and jeets if he were around today, he's that type of character.
It really is a shame we can't bring people back from the dead. Reading what Marx would write about the corpse of modern Europe would be kino

>>17927877
>Because nobody actually gives a shit about class struggle if you live in a prosperous first world country
It's this. Material conditions are simply too good in the west for revolutionary class struggle to take place. Unless this changes this will remain the way it is

>>17927718 (OP)
Because we've never actually escaped religious thinking. And to add to that, this is just the dialectical transformation of earlier 19th century progressivism. Both worship race and identity instead of God.

>>17927898
>cuckservative
As opposed to real reactionaries like myself

>>17927718 (OP)
Commies have always been mentally ill faggots
>>17927723
Trannies groom kids and socialism doesn’t work

>>17928450
Communism is just a commodity in America, sustained to sell Che Guevara t-shirts to dumb shits. Communist preachers drive in cars worth more than your house, Lenin must be proud.

>>17927718 (OP)
Occam's razor, Marxists were always this bad, they were always the obnoxious faggots of their respective time periods.
>b-but they were le based and hated LGBT
Yea and if they were born today they would be wearing rainbow flags and "trans rights are human rights" t-shirts. Depressing truth, I know.

>>17934159
Maybe if you fed an AI all of Marx's works and letters, and then turned the safety's off you could maybe get something fun.

>>17934276
This, but also many communists of old supported faggotry, they were usually just purged

>>17931520
You delusional frothing-at-the-mouth mentally insane faggots will say anything and post the longest paragraphs ever written just to win any debate so that you can go home and fuck eachother's diarrhea anuses guilt free and smug as fuck.

You hedonists are the lowest form of "human" life. (you are not human because humans have self control regarding pleasure, while animals have no care).

>>17931520
>and you don't really hear trans women called female.
Because they aren't women

>>17927718 (OP)
Because that is what it was to begin with. Move on. It was born of envy.

>>17927718 (OP)
>How in fuck did Western Marxism come to be entirely around petty moralism, identity
Because it sells\can be commodified, and is not a threat to the capitalists.
And that's why, if you stray off the idpol, you will be labeled as tankie/red fascist/antisemite etc.

>>17934184
You will eat ze bug and be happy, all while praising the billionaire overlord, you retard, the cope about "muh socialism" is already dead and starts to smell.

>>17929545
yet, however, he had utopian goals, like all millenarian movements. either he's a really good liar or straight-up conman.

>>17934820
>And that's why, if you stray off the idpol, you will be labeled as tankie/red fascist/antisemite etc.
Sure, but the Marxist-Leninist sects often turn Marxism into something like a religion or an ontology, so being a "communist" also becomes like an identity. And a rather weak one. An identity concerns something about the nature of your being. But Marxism really isn't suitable for this, because it's really more like a tool for social "praxis," that is what you do. There's also this assertion that communists "are" something. But I don't need Marxism for that. I have my own identity. It's also not an ethical framework in the usual sense, like telling you how to have sex or raise a family. You can go back through the last 100 years of communist literature and find basically nothing about that.

>>17933216
I want you to try to explain why its low IQ. Theres obviously a line between just being petty and superficial and being observant and aware. Its not that these people are just kind of not attractive, its that they are performatively ugly freaks that deliberately try to look like this. Only a crazy retard would do something like this, so its pretty easy to just judge them from their appearance and make the logical conclusion that they are bad and their ideas should be trashed. Theres no need to engage with them because it would be a waste of time and people who look like this lack the cognitive ability to engage in open debate or discussion, especially while in a group like this. They would just yell and possibly even assault you.

Spin this around to your worldview. If there was a group of fat ugly neo-nazis with face tattoos of swastikas and signs saying insane shit on them would you honestly think "I must engage in these people in open debate"? No, you would say they are weird freaks and by this judgment alone can determine that what they stand for is bad.

>>17927718 (OP)
Marxism was always guided by envy. When Marxism became popular, young leftists realized they had found a political ideology that could justify their envy and youthful anxieties, and even turn it into the guiding principle of society; capitalists were of course happy to cooperate with this and shift Marxism from class politics to identity politics to preserve their own wealth.

Marxism used to seem more academic because it was led by sociopaths who manipulated useful idiots into supporting their system, but now that the sociopaths are all dead the movement is led by the useful idiots who have no sense of realpolitik.

>>17931204
Only based communist.

>>17934562
Reminder. Everyone who hates 'hedonists' just wants you to suffer for their ambitions.

The collapse of the USSR into ethnic blocs revealed that race/ethnicity is simply a more powerful axis of organization than 'class' or other traditional Marxist categories. It was also useful during the Cold War to highlight and exacerbate racial tensions within the US, since those were obvious fault-lines. If you wanted to weaken the US or enact a revolution, one of the obvious stages of that plan would be to use racial conflict as a means of undermining the state.

It didn't quite work, but the concept itself was sound.

>>17933213
Troons are the ultimate "Nobody is saying that" then as you turn your back, they instantly go back to saying that.
Trans Rights Activism is next to Zionism in how insanely bad faith they are. They always dance around any criticism with just derailing bullshit, claim nobody is saying that, then start crybullying to get you censored.
I was largely neutral on the trans topic until troonies wormed their way into mod positions of most left communities and started pushing their insane BPD/fetlife bullshit on everyone, uwu i'm such a victim larping while banning anyone and everyone who even had basic questions about their positions.

>>17936335
>trans
Don't you dare compare those fucking dickgirls and crossdressers with jews who want a land of their own.

>>17936374
Least transphobic Jew

>>17936461
Most transphobic nigga actually.

>>17934187
>Communist preachers drive in cars worth more than your house, Lenin must be proud.

>>17927723
It isn't, people who get angry when someone they don't know chooses to identify as the opposite gender are mentally ill

>>17934826
Communism lost, fag :)

>>17927718 (OP)
women, women and weak men, leftism makes a lot more sense when you realise it's just the externalisation of the feminine/maternal instinct.

From the time a girl was 5 until she died, she was taking care of children and trying to advance the interests of her children. Nearly every instinct in a woman's body is around children or picking a man to have children with. This is the way god intended it. This is her instincts, this is the way she sees the world and will act in it.

make everyone equal
>just like children in a family
don't hold people to account
>just like children
make society safe and non-competitive
>Children need safe environments to grow
remove responsibility
>helps her and her children

The trans debate is useless because our society has no concept of masculine and feminine or what they mean or how they interact with each other. Honestly, why not change gender when the only apparent difference is the clothes you wear and being more desired, just leave out that the primary function of the feminine is children and everything to do with them.

You are not a woman, you will never be a woman, you should stop wanting to be a woman, being feminine isn't hypersexualisation and avoiding all responsibility.

The feminine does not do systematic schemas; it empathises in the moment because that is most advantageous for child rearing. This is why the left has fallen to its lowest common denominator status it enjoys today. her whole mentality is evolved to manage 5+ wild children who all cannot manage their emotions and need babying

>How in fuck did Western Marxism come to be entirely around petty moralism, identity poltics and largely reject dialectical materialist processes and materialism in general for vague concepts like "oppression", "equality" and what is "morally right" when this the sort of stuff that Marx and Engels themselves despised and created a scientific branch in opposition for.

Women, women

>>17935284
not him but i dont judge people based on appearances, high school is over. time to grow up and come to the real world.

>>17927718 (OP)
It was always the logical next step
Once you abolish every traditional man-made law, you start searching for more things to abolish, and eventually try to abolish natural laws
That's why the late 19th century saw the rise of some retarded concepts that were never heard of before such as "sexual orientations" or "gender identities"
Back then people who had gay sex were understood to just be paraphilic degenerates, no different from zoophiles, and they didn't pretend to not be attracted to the opposite sex (a nonsensical concept, everyone is attracted to the opposite sex)
Now it has become part of some kind of "identity" paradigm that is entirely made up
The sexual revolution, whose aim was to officially create and normalize this paradigm, almost happened in the Weimar republic, but the NSDAP prevented it. It instead happened in the 1970s since the NSDAP unfortunately lost the war, so they were only able to delay it for a bit.

>>17936595
Not an argument and also a cope by disgusting slobs.
>being an adult means not caring what anyone thinks!
>bing bing 1 up!

>>17936335
The classic "that's definitely not happening (and if it is it's a good thing)!" argument, they're very good at it. They know the trans bullshit has no logical consistency so they're constantly moving goalposts because they can't defend their positions.
I used to be "trans rights" supporter. I always had some misgivings but I ignored them because what's the big deal, they're not harming anyone, they're adults they should be able to do what they want with their bodies, blah blah. I've come to realize their ideology is harming people - those who are vulnerable to social contagion (such as impressionable minors) or who are desperately lonely and struggling with mental illness (like autists), for example. I think western society decided to play along with troons out of misplaced kindness, because we worried they would kill themselves if not given exactly what they wanted, but at this point we are almost certainly doing more harm than good by validating their delusions.

>>17935284
>Its not that these people are just kind of not attractive, its that they are performatively ugly freaks that deliberately try to look like this. Only a crazy retard would do something like this
That's an extreme and aesthetically repulsive example, but I think the larger historical trend is leading to some blurring of male and female gender roles because of changes in the economy and technology in contrast to traditional agricultural-based civilizations. We live in a more and more urbanized, industrialized, overpopulated planet. And a lot of the material prerequisites for these changes were already laid down awhile ago, it just takes time for the "superstructure" (which includes gender roles) to catch up.

In these sense I'm somewhat Marxist-like because I think the "mode of production" is primary, as I was saying earlier about the Blade Runner future, but that it doesn't lead to any particular outcome. But as history has played out so far, it does tend to individualize and atomize people more, and that can also lead to more customization of individuals.

>>17937789
The origin of feminism is weak men and psychopathic women, the psychopathic women travel to the secular cities where they will be less likely to be persecuted for their ideas and spread their filth

Communism is an ideology favored by the weak, pathetic, and useless. This will always be the case.

>>17937798
Then how did the Viet Cong win?

>>17937831
America turned left wing

>>17937798
Which idelogy is favored by strong? Nazism tried to do that but they turned out to be weaker than commies

>>17937869
>turned out to be stronger than the nazis
Sending tens of millions of peasant slaves to be slaughtered doesnt equate to power, and now look at the results. Communism is objectively supported by weak garbage lower than animals.

>>17937876
>invade a bigger country
>nooo you can't draft so many people!! it's cheating!!

Modern leftism is a continuation of Stalinism/Maoism.

>>17937876
>and now look at the results

>>17937869
>Nazism tried to do that but they turned out to be weaker than commies
The Soviet Union had a much higher death rate than the Nazis, and likely would have lost if they weren't being supported by capitalists in the west, though that has less to do with ideology and more to do with the German character since they also performed the best in WW1, and Hitler also had support from people like Henry Ford.

>>17927718 (OP)
Marx wasn't a scientist. He was a pseud and his legacy is being carried on as faithfully as one should expect.

>>17937887
>>17937892
>Meanwhile Russian women to this day is still mail ordered by losers because so many men died
Capitalism wins again ahahahhaha

>>17937894
>Suprise cowardly attack fends you a few million POWs that you starve to death
>Uhh m-maybe we got raped but we killed more!
yawn
>>17937901
schizo?

>>17937903
>russian mail ordered brides do not exist
ahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahahaahahahahhahaha

>>17937906
i'm not russian so idk but if they were to reject the glorious comunism that EASILY RAPED nazis then it would make sense for their country to get worse

>>17937913
>easily raped
>dying so much in mass your average woman is desperately seeking foreign dick
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>>17937913
>>17937903
https://feminist.org/news/more-russian-women-becoming-mail-order-brides-to-u-s-men/

Since 1991, Russian women have been the fastest growing group to be targeted for the United States mail-order bride business. Over 65 companies in the U.S. advertise services of this sort on the Internet alone.

>>17937903
Cute strawman but
>Commies are stronger despite getting support from USA + UK
>Nazi victories on battlefield and high kill rate against Soviets don't count because they didn't warn them first
On what basis were the communists stronger or more effective than the nazis?

>>17927718 (OP)
>early 20th century
>marxism gains traction with american trade unionists
>post-ww1 red scare and great depression convince US government to adopt keynesian welfare state as compromise
>quality of life improves dramatically + cold war makes anti-communism patriotic, membership in left wing orgs declines
>broadly marxist resurgence on uni campuses, reframes itself in context of civil rights movement/60s counterculture
>70s roll around, white hippies abandon the cause and become comfy middle class yuppies
>marxism is relegated to militant shitskins who coopt its language for ethnic grievance politics
>disillusioned academics pander to them after boomer betrayal blackpills them on broader working class

>>17938079
>On what basis were the communists stronger or more effective than the nazis?
They beat them so hard nazis literally had to kill themselvs :)

>>17937789
More equal the socities, the more seperated and larger the gender differences become
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2422247122
It's one of the great paradox's of the social sciences. In Thirdie countries, you find men and women largely fulfilling the same roles out of need, in equal socities, people form into self enforced strict gender differences.
It's a paradox, but only if you believe that gender is entirely social, it actually makes complete sense if you understand that Biological Sex and gender are 95% the exact same thing. The average woman will never, ever give a single flying fuck about Warhammer no matter the "Socialization".

>>17937789
More equal the socities, the more seperated and larger the gender differences become
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2422247122
It's one of the great paradox's of the social sciences. In Thirdie countries, you find men and women largely fulfilling the same roles out of need, in equal socities, people form into self enforced strict gender differences.
It's a paradox, but only if you believe that gender is entirely social, it actually makes complete sense if you understand that Biological Sex and gender are 90% the exact same thing. The average woman will never, ever give a single flying fuck about Warhammer no matter the "Socialization". In thirdie countries, the reason they fulfill many of the same roles and gender differences are minimized is of then out of material need. Just like WW2 Soviets had female combat soldiers.
I'm gonna whip the ol tinfoil hat on for a minute and speculate that the reason for the ugly epidemic is due to zoomers being uncomfortably oversexualized. Dressing ugly could be seen as an extension of insulating themselves from any more of it. Would explain why we're supposedly the generation who fucks the least and also has dozens of unique sexual/gender identities to shield and validate oneself from awkward (but essential) things like puberty. Reminder that all the modern gender ideology shit first came from teenage school girls on Tumblr who despised being constantly sexualized by older guys when walking down the street.
>>17935284
AGP is deeply rooted in misogyny. They view women as basically subhuman cum dumpster human toilets and because they have a degeneration fetish, they get "gender euphoria" boners going out like this and being "seen" as a woman.
This is why Troon communities tend to be rampantly misogynisic in a way that is far more insidious and weird and aggressive than even the biggest losers on r9k.

Marxism is genuinely one of the most insightful, interesting political and ideological toolsets out there. Marx genuinely was a rare pragmatic genius who instead of being ivory tower, was able to merge extremely high academic and philosopical concepts into an extremely useful toolsets for the average person to use to understand frankly, how political and social power actually forms and is used.
Sadly, most Marxists never even read beyond the first paragraph of the Communist Manifesto, and Right Wingers don't even do that.
It's pretty telling to me that, despite reading Sowell, Hayek, P.Hitchens etc that not one actually has any good understanding of Marx or Marxian concepts. Sowell is by far the most well read, but his analysis is still deeply.. shit and based largely in ad hominem.
I think Peterson is the best example of the typical reaction to Marx. Just boxing at shadows and vague shitlib concepts that Marx himself despised, and then claiming that shit is "Marxist".
But again, it's not only the right. For example, Marx and Engels were both against concepts of equality, but it doesn't stop everyone, including leftists from strawmaning Marx to "building an equal society" when he and engels said a thing is not what they would want nor is even materially possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsHJ3LvUWTs

>>17927732
>Gender ideology is metaphysical and rejects the materialist reality of sex and biology
There are trannies that claim their trannyness is because of chemicals in the brain though, so it's perfectly compatible with materialism. These same trannies choose to mutilate their own body and genitals instead of treating the chemicals in the brain tho.

>>17937789
>but I think the larger historical trend is leading to some blurring of male and female gender roles because of changes
I do agree that this is happening, but I dont think this is what Im talking about when I called out ugly freaks. What Im talking about is a sort of psycho sexual behavior that is tolerated by the left to a certain degree and it pushed to be normalized.
>>17937798
This is the truth because Communism has always favored "the outsiders" of society. Liberals and Conservatives in America used to realize this somewhat which is what drove them to mitigate poverty and joblessness because they knew without this, communism had nothing to stand on. Its an ideology for those with nothing to lose.

>>17937831
>>17937869
LARPing cope. You're not a Soviet or Viet Cong soldier. E-commies are weird little pervert band dorks.

>>17938440
While "Truscum" claim this, I think it also largely ignores the complex mix of biology and socialization that comes with gender formation. Also I think a lot of the "muh female brain" stuff isn't actually that backed up by scientific evidence.
Also you just have the general issue that why with this form of body dysphoria, do you reinforce the dysphoria instead of treating it? Why do we not give Ozempic to those who are anorexic for example?

>>17938440
>>17938597
None of this really matters. Its a psycho sexual phenomenon and its weird and transgressive to normie society. Because of this, leftist and liberals promote it from a position of appearing tolerant and/or deliberately offending people due to a sense of oikophobia

>>17938588
>What Im talking about is a sort of psycho sexual behavior that is tolerated by the left to a certain degree and it pushed to be normalized.
This is pretty easy to explain.
Most Western lefism has no basis at all in actual materialist or marxist or even just standard working class positions, it's largely based on vague utopian socialism mashed with bourgeois liberal values and Christian values taken to their logical conclusion.
This means in Western leftism, values like "inclusivity", "equality", "anti-discrimination" are what are held as paramount, not actual working class politics, or technical Marxist materialism that focuses on productive forces, like most orthodox Marxists would focus on.
This means, in the Western left, you get oppression olympics and oppression points, you mash that with Christian slave morality and it becomes a competition of "The person who is more oppressed through intersectional forms of oppression, has more value in what they have to say" and this obviously gets weaponized into "Because I'm black, trans, gay and have 6 personality disorders + I'm physically disabled and autistic, i'm correct and you're an ableist" if you disagree with them and most leftists are scared of being called "reactionary" so they play along if not even go on the offensive, because they themselves don't want to be subjected to "reactionary" label and harassment.
This means the left simply cannot gatekeep against crazies. I was involved in leftist organized politics a lot, and I watched so many time as severely mentally ill and narcissistic people wrecked and wrecked, and anyone who tried to call them out or reign them in was the one dogpilled on for being "ableist" or "homophobic" or "racist" etc
Go on Leftypoldotorg and you can see this exact crabs in the bucket mindset. They literally have "Not reporting is bourgeois" under the banner, and you will get pretty much reported and banned for being "reactionary" for not towing complete shitlib line.

>>17938588
>>17937798

>>17927718 (OP)
Marxism was always about that.
Materialism will never be the foundation for a political movement because people really don't connect with it beyond "am I starving to death?" If the answer is no, then they stop caring.
Those nonmaterialist identity politics are what people actually connect to and care about long term.

>>17927723
Being gay has nothing to do with being a communist.

>>17931491
>Somehow Anarkids have the most social cache in the left as well in the west, which is just pathetic.
That somehow is because they are the only one who didn't create a cartoonishly evil state, but only because they either are incompetent, or their attempts got nuked(19th-20th century, folded(recent stuff in Mexico and Kurdistan), or are harmless larping hobo shit like squatting.

>>17938910
You can look at Cultural Revolution Red Guards to basically see what an Anarchist movement would devolve into. Petty mob grevience politics where they start murdering people they have personal grudges with, using vague Socialist lingo to justify it. You saw that happen in Chaz in basically a week.
Doesn't help that Anarchists tend to be extremely unhinged, mentally ill, vindicitve personality disordered types.

>>17928110
>>17928135
based on what? You have nothing to support this hypothesis.

>>17927718 (OP)
didn't read the thread but it goes like this

frankfurt school -> 1960 jewish led iidentity politics -> french post-structuralists
already with the french philosophers you can see that their identity was their main characteristic, people only hyped up foucault because he was a fag. And it's all just a coping mechanism for why nationalists won over communists in all western countries, which they can't comprehend to this day

>>17927718 (OP)
You hate them because you don't understand intersectional politics. I hate them because they're electoralists and reformistd

I won’t judge criticize Marxists for being pro-LGBT, at worst it’s orthogonal to their aims.

The thing that really boggles my mind is Marxists being pro-Islam. They will carry water for basically every Islamist movement under the Sun, from Iran to the Muslim Brotherhood to unironic leftist support for the Taliban. Like these movements literally kill communists, why are you lot defending them?

>inb4 “They oppose the West therefore they are good”
Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan opposed the West too. Being anti-West does not make you a saint.

>>17939497
>Muslim Brotherhood
persecuted by Assad, who leftists supported.
>Taliban
Literally financed by the CIA to fight leftists (the Soviets), wtf are you on about? Are you confusing spite for America with sincere ideological endorsement?

>>17939497
It's because of thirdworldism. During the Cold War Marxists got really hard into those Third World national liberation movements and this strain still persists. Whitey doesn't care about class struggle because he's rich so the natural next step for Marxists is to lead the global browns against the wealthy whitey. This thirdworldism even gets co-opted by Putin with his "golden billion" speeches

>>17939502
> wtf are you on about?
Leftist posters were openly cheering the Taliban in 2021, daydreaming about the Taliban allying with China, etc. Anyone worrying about what the Taliban victory meant for women or whatever was left of Afghanistan’s religious minorities was shouted down as a imperialist.

>>17939508
I'm pretty sure what was good for the women of Afghanistan was not being constantly bombed by American planes and murdered by roving gangs of American backed drug warlords. People are on to your crocodile tears that you shed for "women's rights" that you conveniently never shed when Afghan women lacked them under previous regimes.

>>17939546
True, true, I’m sure women’s rights have improved dramatically since the Taliban came back. And spare me the handwringing about violence in the country, ISIS-K is roaming about all over Afghanistan and there hasn’t been a peep from the left.

>>17939508
That's because they view America as socialism's biggest opponent, so they support their geopolitical adversaries to knock them down a peg. You could call it cynical but it's no less logical than America supporting Islamists or military dictatorships during the Cold War to fight communism.

>>17938432
>For example, Marx and Engels were both against concepts of equality, but it doesn't stop everyone, including leftists from strawmaning Marx to "building an equal society" when he and engels said a thing is not what they would want nor is even materially possible.
Well, it was a critique of an abstract formal "equality." Like in a liberal society we're all technically "equal" under the law, but the idea behind communism was "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." That's also different from everyone receiving the same. You could call it social equality or something like that. They would write things like the "real content of the proletarian demand for equality is the demand for the abolition of classes." But to give an example, take a universal healthcare system that covers everybody equally. In material reality, to be truly equal, older people will receive more healthcare because they usually have greater needs than younger people. It's not like everyone will get the exact same treatment without taking into account people's diverse needs.

>>17939582
>America supports Islamists in the Cold War
>This backfires in spectacular fashion and leads to a major attack on America and a decade of global warfare
So what you’re telling me is that socialists are going to repeat the mistakes America made despite the US providing the ultimate cautionary tale

>>17927718 (OP)
First of all there was an organic movement that ended up being called cultural marxism. It was the result of the complete collapse of communist movements outside of Russia. In the interwar period, the communists were battered to hell and beyond if you think about it. Defeated in the baltics and Finland, defeated in Hungary, defeated in Romania, defeated in Poland, defeated in Germany, defeated in Italy, defeated in Portugal, not yet defeated in Spain but you know what happened there so imagine living at the time and wondering whether revolution is still possible and seeing that unfold.
Communism lost. If you were intellectually honest and didn't dismiss reports on what's happening in the Soviet Union just because some totally not Moscow-handled Comminist Party spokesman in your country denounces it you could also say that it has failed in Russia. Oh but I bet the coloured people will adopt it oh wait the communist-KMT coalition broke down and the resulting clash resulted on communists being kicked out to a relatively inhospitable region that at first had difficulties providing food for the mere 40k or so of them.
Basically if you were an intellectually honest leftist in the interwar period you'd be a complete doomer. Communism where it wasn't just battered by militias run by the very working class it was supposed to appeal to has just turned into a total disaster politically and economically. But you're still a leftist. And I won't even mention the failure of pre-WW1 era ideas like "when there will be war between the Euro great powers socialist parties will announce the general strike and the war will end" because the whimper with which it has ended was beyond pathetic.

So as a result various theories were born on how to actually get communism rolling, and this cultural shift is a result of it.

>>17939502
>>17939614
The Taliban didn't even exist as an entity during the Soviet-Afghan war

>>17939582
>You could call it cynical but it's no less logical than America supporting Islamists or military dictatorships during the Cold War to fight communism.
>>17939614
>So what you’re telling me is that socialists are going to repeat the mistakes America made despite the US providing the ultimate cautionary tale
Yeah, I gotta say, if there's ultimately no principle involved and it's just grubby power politics and being opportunistic, then why not be a neocon?

>>17939631
Now the issue at the time was also that again, in leftist political movements that weren't just outright repeating what the USSR told them to, the belief in things like marxism being scientific kind of died out.
On the American scene, James Burnhams(then still communist) denouncement of dialectical materialism as unscientific in 1938 and his revisions to it(the result of it can be seen in "The Managerial Revolution") can be seen as an example of this discontent. In many ways what Marx has written in the mid-1800's may have passed for science back then, but by the interwar period the bar was higher. From there you could either go the way Burnham went, where he eventually spiralled out of being a leftist or stop paying that much attention of what two dudes with old fashioned beards thought was scientific or not.
As such the ground was ripe for some new idea about how to get communism running in practice and the convergence of Gramscian elite theory for dummies(commies) and the Frankfurt-school of literally analysis(a practical example of it that doesn't require you to be schizophrenic can be found in "Boys Weeklies" by Orwell) ended up being quite potent mixture.

That's the organic movement. During the world war a lot of intellectuals were hired to essentially create intellectual propaganda and this practice survived the end of the war. Burnham, previously mentioned, later ran a CIA funded operation that effectively bankrolled leftist intellectuals who were seen as not aligned with Moscow. This is also why for a short while Maoists were a thing in the west btw. Makes 0 sense to be Maoist in America or France but hippies were often that. Most of these intellectuals however were of that cultural marxist variety and so they've got their tenures, authority, greenlight from publishers etc. etc. etc.
The irony of it was that in the end it backfired and while Burnham obviously ran this whole thing to sabotage soviet influence, his successors didn't.

>>17939631
>Basically if you were an intellectually honest leftist in the interwar period you'd be a complete doomer. Communism where it wasn't just battered by militias run by the very working class it was supposed to appeal to has just turned into a total disaster politically and economically.
I dunno. I'm not disagreeing with the rest of your points, but people didn't really doom as much back then. You'd think they did because of their situation was really bad, but people had a different mentality. Maybe they weren't being intellectually honest but they had stiffer spines I think, and there was no internet or television back then. Part of the appeal of communism too in the 1930s is that they were the toughest anti-fascist guys and they were going to fight to the end. This is a sort of later piece of communist propaganda (which is very Orwellian too):
https://youtu.be/cxWh_oHgqxI

>>17939655
>Part of the appeal of communism too in the 1930s is that they were the toughest anti-fascist guys and they were going to fight to the end.
Ok but if they're failing over and over then their approach is just bad.

>>17939654
>This is also why for a short while Maoists were a thing in the west btw. Makes 0 sense to be Maoist in America or France but hippies were often that.
Well part of the appeal of Maoism is that they didn't perceive the Soviet Union as that revolutionary anymore, but something unappealing, and which had turned into a rather conservative regime in reality, and/or an imperialist power flying a red flag. Mao's China in the 1960s were the "bad" communists for the West while the USSR were the ones the West could make arms control deals with. You see this explored in La Chinoise:
https://youtu.be/VggUGM3_oqQ

There were elements of socialism in the USSR but it wasn't really socialist. That's how those types thought back then. I think the CIA-funded "Partisan Review" types tended to be social democrats.

>>17929028
Read the relevant parts of Weininger's Sex and Character. It will help you understand the Jewish character a bit more.

>>17938607
>IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN E-COMMIE BULLSHIT YOU MUST BE A NAZI!
kill yourself

>>17938605
reminds me of a funny story
>talking with lib lefty cousin during thanksgiving
>she works as a professor at local college
>some black dude at her college was fired
>turned out he failed to do a bunch of assigned task, wasnt showing up to class constantly, failing to grade papers on time and got a whole bunch of complaints from students
>he immediately plays the race card and like Manchurian candidates activated by their code word, the entire faculty and some of the more liberal students stage protest on his behalf
>cousin admits she hates him, he sucks and is lazy, but she participated in them out of fear of being targeted by her coworkers and students as racist
I think you're correct, the left doesnt really have a check valve on the crazies. I think the right suffers from this too, but they are under such scrutiny that they are pretty good at policing themselves in terms of kicking out open nazis.

>>17939497
>The thing that really boggles my mind is Marxists being pro-Islam
All contradictions within in the left are explained away once you realize that at its core, its just anti-white agitation.

>>17927894
>"N-no please stop bringing up the massive and public contradiction that our president put himself in. H-he's not a liar. I DIDN'T FALL FOR IT AGIAN!"

>>17941172
anti-Christ*

>>17941157
>they are under such scrutiny that they are pretty good at policing themselves in terms of kicking out open nazis.
2015 was 10 years ago

>>17938079
The basis that the USSR won, the Third Reich stopped being a political entity all together, Germany was split in half, and had to be the Soviets little bitches for the next 5 decades. Just a few metrics I can think of as to why the USSR was stronger.

>>17941157
I can think of three similar pathologies on both the right and left.

(1) Excessive moralism. This necessarily tends towards fighting for/against some abstraction. That can be "racism" on "toxic masculinity" on the left but it can also be "degeneracy" or old-fashioned sin on the right. It's like a quest for purity.

(2) Power politics. By this I mean sinking oneself into some other unit and spending one's energy either boosting it or denigrating opponents. This tends to be a fascination with people enthralled by "geopolitics" and wars and can take the form of pro-Israel/Zionism and also people who have sunk their identities into the Russia-Ukraine war (on both sides). It comes across to me like volunteering to turn oneself into cannon fodder but it's usually brazenly hypocritical.

(3) A combination of sheer crankery + scapegoating. By crankery I mean an irrational obsession with something but usually the person is a pretentious pseud about it. "The troons ruined Occupy Wall Street." There might be a grain of truth in some of these things, but it's like, let it go, man. You lost. You have to learn to move on. Or it's a way to avoid reflection or a deeper critical analysis. Like if it was THAT easy to ruin it, it probably had some deeper flaws.

>>17928928
getting propagandized from birth to believe living in objective poverty isn't all that bad tends to make you believe living in objective poverty isn't all that bad
things are terrible, but there's enough debt being offered to paper over the obvious reality that the floor has fallen out of the western economy. a majority of young people say they never expect to be financially stable

>>17937876
your master race of super soldiers got massacred by illiterate peasants lmao
the fact nazis can say that shit with a straight face proves they have a room temperature iq