Thread 713030793

They are games, not art.
>A board game like Monopoly is not "art"
>A deck of cards is not art
>Playing TAG with friends is not art
>A jump rope isn't "art"
They contain art in them, but a game is a game, not art.
The classifying of videogames as art has only made videogames worse and government art grants have NEVER gone to a single videogame worth spending money on and drags the medium down as a whole.

fucking retard

>>713030793 (OP)
the only people who want video games to be "art" are retards who are embarrassed to tell normies it's their main hobby but didn't get the memo that it has become a normie hobby years ago

"ackshually blah bla blah"
- bob 'literally who' fartman

>>713030793 (OP)
>[Opinion] - guy whose beard is turning grey and will be a decomposing corpse in 30 years
Stephen Hawking got normalfags to attack smart people who talk about their IQ and he was crippled and unable to speak for 67% of his life. Imagine how much damage these idiots can do

Why is some obsessed loser spamming about his guy today?

>>713030793 (OP)
>Beautiful art such as Dustborne LMAO

>>713030793 (OP)
Not treating them as art is unironically how you end up with soulless remakes.

>>713031515
That's the only one that is though

>>713030793 (OP)
this guy made a video talking about why he couldn't make a video about undertale because apparently it's too good for him to make a video about... lol

>>713030971
Not everything enjoyable has to be "art".
I like gardening and minor home repairs, Doesn't have to be art to be justified as good use of my free time.
But I think you hit the nail on the head, people insecure about their hobby seek to try and justify obsessing over it and not being written off as a psuedo intellectual or manchild.
Like bro, just have fun. Sure, it's cool Bioshock took a dystopian view of Atlas Shrugged but it isn't worth being taught in a philosophy class as a counterpoint.

It's kinda like the retards trying to shove superhero comic books in english lit classes.

>>713030793 (OP)
They are, BUT you shouldn't treat them like they are because the term art carries way too much retarded gay baggage. I know this will be impossible for sub 90 iq niggers to understand thoughbeit.

>>713030793 (OP)
Games can be art, but it's really hard to make anything that says anything worthwhile the more people are involved in making it. So most opt for the Kojima hustle of baldfaced manipulation masquerading as Saying Something.

Games are not art, but playing them is.

>>713031515
What government art grant did this game recieve? What museum houses this game for all to passively stare at and ponder?
>meanwhile... DUSTBORNE had ALL production costs fully paid for by European governments for being "art".

I mean who cares if it's art or not? I don't watch movies and then try to argue to people if it's true art or not. Seems like you have to be up your own ass to care in the first place

>>713032210
Movies and games can be art but not all of them

>>713030971
>Musc is art
>Painting/Sculpturing/Modelling is art
>Storytelling is art
>Have all three of them together. It's not art anymore.

I get the sentiment, and there's dudes out there who'll look for validation by "only playing le deep games with le themes". But those faggots are rarely involved with successful creative projects, if at all.

It's just so gay. To argue about this shit. Specially with faggots like OP

>>713032085
There is an argument that a lets play of a game is art. Games contain lots of art, much like a deck of cards has art on each card, but the game is a game reliant on gameplay.
>What about visual novels
Those may be on the same platforms as games, but all gamers will quickly differentiate them from a normal videogame because they are more novel than game.

>>713032210
>>713032417
But yeah debating if something specific is art or not is pointless

what kind of retard cares about this. just play video games and stop being an uppity cunt about retarded shit like what is and isn't art. dumb ass

>>713032425
I thought the same way, but the fact that a game contains other forms of art doesn't necessarily make it an art form in itself imo, it has to be something that only a video game can express to define it as a standalone art form, for example, the way gameplay can be used to tell a story

>More importarntly, whem is art?
>And when is dinner?
>and where are my pants?
>and where am I?
>and why won’t the voices in my head stop?
>and who gave me this gun?

>>713032425
Is an art gallery art?

>>713031704
>Before the Obama administration and other governments recognized games as "art" "remakes" were far fewer and more heavily scrutinized.
>In [current year] remakes are abundant and grant money goes to consulting companies to change and censor out certain things in the games you enjoyed
Yeah, treating games like art is totally cutting back on soulless remakes and increasing game quality.

>>713032417
I don't even really disagree, but I don't get why people are so strongly opinionated about it. Some people will see the value in it and some won't, there's no point in trying to tell someone something is art if they don't already think it is

>>713030793 (OP)
Yahtzee made video games art?Holy shit!

I'll say this much. Years ago, I would've disagreed with you on this matter. I would've argued with you that video games are art in and of themselves. And if I'm honest, I still, personally, emotionally think that they are. However, In the last half decade, after witnessing how quickly the people who should be standing up for video games as art the most, that being critics, are willing to decry the masterpieces of the industry as outdated, clunky and otherwise "needing" to be replaced by remakes, I have analytically gone to your side.

"Art" is timeless. It can be accessed and enjoyed at any time by anyone and it never needs to be apologetic. The Godfather is as good now as it was when it came out and it will always be so. But if critics are willing to throw an old game under the bus the second a new "improved" version comes out then they are not art. They are toys

>>713030793 (OP)
>artfags still pretending art is something grandiose
KEKEKEKEKEK code is art and produces better art than 99% of artoids hence why shitty free models keep winning competitions.
SEETHE + COPE artcuck.

>>713031626
Probably because he dropped a review today where he was singing the game's praises, and claiming it's probably his personal GOTY
And it's not any of the games people are raving on about

>>713033139
I just assumed Second Wind has some financial incentive or ties to the game based on the history of Nick “suck a dick” Cuçklandra.

>>713032775
An art gallery, in its totality, can make a statement. So yes.

>>713032425
Because when you sell it as an experience to be taken in the venue displaying the art is not art.
Arguing the venue displaying the art, is art leads to talentless hacks trying to make a quick buck applying for free money from government grants to open their "at home webcam stream art museum of AI".
>>713032775
You hit the nail on the head so hard I had to use your analogy!
When THE ART in a videogame is incredibe you specifically emphasize that THE ART is incredible.
When THE MUSIC in a game is incredible, you emphasize that THE MUSIC is incredible.
You can enjoy these aspects without the game, but much like how an art museums lighting and vibe can frame how you take in the art, a videogame frames how you take in the art.

>>713031626
Yahtzee finally cut ties with the faggots at the escapist they are probably behind it.

>>713030793 (OP)
Movies are not art, they're non-interactive entertainment.

>>713033295
Seemed more like a case of a game that was specifically made for Yahtzee

>>713033130
You could make the same argument for movies tho

>>713033426
That one YouTube comment actually said it pretty well. Something like “Yahtzee liked the game because it’s based off the idea everything would be better if there were more of me”

>>713030793 (OP)
Kojima nooooooo

>>713033683
Heh

>>713033521
You could try. It wouldn't work. Movie critics are too respectful of their industry's own legacy. Yes movie remakes exist, but rarely do critics actively tear down the past to hype up the future.

>>713033370
That's not an original analogy but yeah, they contain art but can't be artistic themselves since the game ultimately has to be fun.

>>713033706
Kojima makes a decent argument at least. OP's reasoning is arbitrary since hundreds of Japanese games have been made with government grants.

>>713031982
I only disagree slightly.
I see them as more of an "art gallary" than art itself and 100% agree with everything else you said.
Treating them like art causes sub 90 IQ people to think the are refined sophisticates. It opens the flood gates to grant fraud. Every single game that pocketed money from grants for its development has been dogshit because now you don't need to care what the customer wants to play...
Add to that the greedy profit motives of corporations to find ways to pocket this free money and you create an incentive system that incentives slop that gets labeled as art because the bar for "what is art" is so low a snake would have trouble limboing under it

>>713033706
>kojima gags on hollyjew cock
more news at 11

>>713030793 (OP)
corporate dicksucking suits and the CEOs whose dicks they suck don't want video games to be held to a higher cultural standard, because they don't want to shoulder the responsibility of having to make actually intellectually stimulating content. they just want to churn out current year fifa over and over again and rake in easy money.

games are art, not all games are art, but games definitely have the capacity to be art, and you're a faggot for trying to say they aren't or they can't. please, jump off a bridge why don't you.

>>713032775
yes you retard

the same people who will marvel at a depiction of ketchup, mustard, mayo and poop smeared on a canvas, will also tell you what is or isn't art

Video games are art. Whether you want to argue if they're good art or not that a different story. Pretty much anything made with intent and skill can be classified as art.

>>713033706
This is the equivalent of Anno saying that Eva isn't deep

>>713032445
A game is the invitation to play. The best games encourage play and reward player agency and creativity, the worst games are rigid exercises that deny the player a meaningful role in how the game plays out.

>>713031515
xg is art

>>713034256
>Corporate dicksucking suits dont want videogames to be held to the high standards of "art"
>Said things classified as "art include dadaist abominations like a signed urinal and recieved US art grant money.
>Said Corporate dick suckers apply for government grant money
You are so wrong it is hilarious

>>713030793 (OP)
>>713031898
>>713032151
>>713032445
>>713032793
>>713033370
>>713034132
>>713034704
>making all these images
>writing all this out about an eceleb
KWAB

>>713030793 (OP)
Am I supposed to be mad that government funding for the arts is going towards videogames instead of shitty films/plays/sculptures/paintings etc.? Oh no my government funded games Cuphead and The Messenger, what a complete tragedy, that should've went to POC women making art films!

>>713034275
>An art gallery is art
LMAO!
Do you think a pizza hurt hanging a printed picture on the wall is art now too?

avatarfagging on my /v/?!

>>713034704
>because film studios can get certain stimulus or tax breaks for filming in certain places or meeting certain thresholds
>this means that the great endeavor that is film is not art, and everything is cynically made with the express purpose of exploiting a broken system to make as much money as possible oh ho ho
indian and/or chinese mindset. besides, you can name on one hand the games that are subsidized by da gubmint, and it's quite obvious in the final product because the devs in question clearly only wanted the money. not much different from what EA does when churning out current year fifa or whatever.

What are the odds OP is someone who thought they could try a similar schtock to Yahtzee, didnt make it and now spends his Wednesday afternoon on /v/ making images of fake quotes about him
Or maybe hes just a dime a dozen schizo

>>713034821
Cry harder
>>713034928
Except your government didn't fund cup head or the messanger.
Those had to have good gameplay and sell units based on being fun to play.

You should be upset that an influx of money that is given with no strings attatched incentivizes developers and publishers to not care about making a quality product for the customer while taking charging you for the privilege of making it worse via your tax dollars

ot but italy funded this "movie" with €1.5 million of public money last year

>>713035256
I work a real job.
Lol

>op bootyblasts his autism ITT
please stop taking the vax you're overdosing

>>713035415
>Cry harder
Nigga YOU are the one who made half a dozen images and two separate threads about an eceleb while avatarfagging- I can practically see your tears in each image

>>713030793 (OP)
They don't treat them like art. They treat them like propaganda. Canada is the worst when it comes to putting state messaging into media. Boycott Canadian games is you know what's good for you.

>>713035415
>Except your government didn't fund cup head or the messanger. Those had to have good gameplay and sell units based on being fun to play.
Those two examples were picked because they were government funded through the Canadian Media Fund. You admit those two games have good gameplay and are fun, how do you know they would've been made without the funding?

>>713033917
>game ultimately has to be fun.
Horror games exist, in which the objective is to scare instead of just entertain (though scares can also be entertaining)

>>713030971
Why does it always have to be about embarrassment? They just fundamentally are art. You have to strain a hell of a lot harder to claim that they somehow aren't.
>contain visual aesthetics
>contain modeling and sculpting
>contain writing
>contain music
>designed in many ways to evoke human emotion
What is art, if not any of that?

>>713032775
If all of the pieces are arranged with intent, to create a holistic experience, then absolutely. I believe they call that an instillation.
>artlets trying to tell people what art is

>>713031628
That's the joke

>>713032775
It can be
>>713033370
Jesus christ you are stupid

Depending on who you ask art is either the mastery of a craft, or some kind of expression of human experiences and emotion. On both counts, video games are art.
>I played an impeccably coded video game, and felt joy, fear or excitement
Good job, Timmy. You have experienced art.

Gamers legitimately will not allow games to be art. It's all, "remake!", "mods!", "developer communication!", "dollar per hour!" and other nonsense that actual artistic mediums worthy of respect would laugh off.

>>713037968
Bro, have you seen movies?
Or "streaming" as they call it now?

>>713030793 (OP)
Art is something that can provide emotional engagement. A board game isn't art because the thing you're supposed to engage with emotionally is the other players. A game's fundamental gameplay can communicate emotion to a lone player, even in a multiplayer game. If that isn't art, then nothing is.

>>713037968
>Companies legitimately will not allow games to be art. It's all, "remake!", "mods!", "developer communication!", "dollar per hour!" and other nonsense that actual artistic mediums worthy of respect would profit off.

>>713038294
There's an argument to be made that a board game could be art. Some board games are pretty high concept and immersive. You're supposed to get into the role.

the real problem with trying to exclude things from being art, is that no one really knows what the fuck art is. It's a highly abused meme term, that if you go back to the very beginning, probably meant something more like "things rich people think are valuable". Why is an oil painting art? Because rich people pay a lot of money for them. End of.

>>713038057
I have see movies.

Remakes are not begged for, and when they come they are treated as separate, and not a replacement. Total Recall was not replaced by the "update".

They are not recut to add Thomas the tank engine.

Edits are not shit out at rapid speed due to "community feedback".

The work stands alone.

>>713038601
>I have see movies.

I liked Yahtzee back when he started but he really is a self important blowhard, bad at games, and a bad writer.

Everyone who actually likes games and plays them considers them a new and burgeoning artform. The only people who disagree are outside politically motivated shitstirrers, like OP intentionally and dishonestly posting some annoying SJW dev to somehow discredit the entire medium.

Cringe. Get lost.

>>713030793 (OP)
Video games are art because I said so, bitch
and they're too cheap

>>713038601
8K remasters are begged for

>>713038901
>some annoying SJW dev
underage

Video games are not art. Movies are art, however.

>>713038931
Remasters, not remakes.

And when James Cameron shit out his awful 4K AI remasters people took notice of it complained.

Unlike gamers tm who can't wait to buy a worse version of a game that already exists.

>>713035256
Why do cat avatars read like anime avatars?
Do you have any better material?

>>713039182
only snobs complain. Normies want their movies to look HD, and to not see black bars on their screen.

>>713039182
>Unlike gamers tm who can't wait to buy a worse version of a game that already exists.
>posts a universally panned remaster that everyone hates
?

>>713039256
If they want their movies to look HD why are they buying 4k remasters?

We already had "HD Versions".

>>713039117
>some burgeoning new artform hits the scene and takes the world by storm
>some moneyhungry dickwads try to apply another medium's methods to it and define its parameters
>this somehow catches on and now the new medium has become a race to churn out dogshit in this style
>as opposed to exploring the potential of that medium on its own terms
this is what I think every time I see a god damned movie game. not to say you can't have a cinematic experience, kojima loves that shit and he more or less knows what makes a video game "good" but then for every kojima you get a billion david cages who are so far up their own ass they not only can't see the light of day, they're convinced that the darkness of their own rectum is tantamount to enlightenment.

>>713039398
well, they're not. they get them on streaming now.

>>713030793 (OP)
Art is a fucking worthless noun. Anything artificial is art. Movies are art. Comic books are art. Video games are art. The anons that post on 4chan are participating in collective literary art. Any motherfucker that try to claim art is anything more are just arguing that something is not art in their standards. Fuck off and die you pretentious twat.

>>713030793 (OP)
>>713031898
>>713032151
>>713032445
>>713032793
>>713033370
>>713034132
>>713034704
>>713034975
he did not say that

>>713030793 (OP)
posts like this make me think "man we're probably going to have to fucking kill each other in the next ten years"

>>713030793 (OP) (OP)
>>713031898
>>713032151
>>713032445
>>713032793
>>713033370
>>713034132
>>713034704
>>713034975
fake quotes

>>713030793 (OP) (you)
>>713031898 (you)
>>713032151 (you)
>>713032445 (you)
>>713032793 (you)
>>713033370 (you)
>>713034132 (you)
>>713034704 (you)
>>713034975 (you)
op made these up

>>713039623
>>713039687
>>713039752
>1 min apart
Nigger we GET IT

>>713030793 (OP) (me)
>>713031898 (me)
>>713032151 (me)
>>713032445 (me)
>>713032793 (me)
>>713033370 (me)
>>713034132 (me)
>>713034704 (me)
>>713034975 (me)
I look like this and I said this

Video games are toys. They aren't artwork.
Literature is not artwork either. Get fucked Shakespeare.

>>713037968
>>713038601
Well said

>>713038901
It could be art, but it isn't growing into art like it should be. Current games are what an 80 IQ retard's idea of art is.

>>713036629
It's called an exhibition and the process you're describing is curation, not an 'instillation' you bilthering fool.
>t. works in an art gallery.

>>713039873
people who love movie remakes exist too. You just don't talk to them.
Very common to meet people who refuse to watch the original Star Trek, for example

>>713032775
Uh, yeah. Don't be stupid.

>>713040098
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Installation_art
huh?

>>713038574
art is therefore art am - albert einstein

>>713040151
True, but when I talk about shitty game remakes, I often feel outnumbered massively by the supporters of them. I don't really feel that way when it comes to film remakes.

>>713030793 (OP)
Remember when Ben Croshaw used to make videos about games? before he moved to america and started inserting politics into his videos?

>>713034685
Where was this? Some sort of Square Enix art exhibition?

>>713030793 (OP)
>uh, the components that make a videogame definitely contain artistic value and the ability to tell stories make it a worthwhile artistic medium like any other but they aren't art because... because they aren't ok?
>a videogame can't simultaneously have entertainment value and be challenging and be artistic because... because it simply can't!!!

>>713035845
>Cuphead was made by the Canadian government
I didn't know the Canadian government was owned by Microsoft
>The Messenger
Yeah, sounds like government subsidized dogshit.

>>713030793 (OP)
>A board game like Monopoly is not "art"
Wasn't monopoly literally originally intended to be unfair on purpose as a statement? That is what I call art, I don't know how you could not call that art. If a board game can be art, then a videogame can be art as well, especially since videogames are lightyears ahead of board games when it comes to artistic potential.

>>713030793 (OP)
>they're not art because I'm putting an arbitrary definition on the meaning of the word "art" so I can exclude them
This is literally every anti-art "argument" for vidya.

>>713031590
Stephen Hawking is right about IQ though

>>713031515
Pretentious crap

Wait did he actually say that?

>>713041154
honk honk you just didn't get it.

>>713041247
no
neither are any of op's other schizoid images

>>713039997
Yeah I agree. This is kind of my problem with the medium. The possibilities are endless with videogames, but for some reason we're stuck in this playstation moviegame mold and people actually think that shit is the artistic peak of the medium. Like that shit is just the tip of the iceberg of what you could do with games. There's shit like Deus Ex which is decades old by now which still seems revolutionary nowadays because it actually breaks the boundaries of what can happen in a game, and instead of other devs taking that and trying to see just how far they could take that approach, they either just ignored it or made a heavily watered down version.

>>713038963
>You don't know my favorite eceleb with 100k subs? Underage!
Zoomer meme

>>713040240
The installation using the building is the art. The creative uses of the building spaces is the art.
The building is not art. It is a building and is easily repurposed again and again for multiple purposes.

>>713042028
>The building is not art

>>713042028
>The building is not art
What is architecture midwit-san?

>>713030793 (OP)
games are art but so are cans of soup and dog food packaging. people speak of art in this retarded transcendent way because they simply know nothing about it

>>713042028
These are the retards pretending gaming isn't art, everyone.

>>713041247
Naw they are 100% verbatim quotes from Yahtzee!

>>713030793 (OP)
I feel like people are missing something vital in these kind of discussion: something doesn't have to be good art to be art. Most games are pretty shallow when it comes to artistic value, that doesn't mean the medium isn't an artform or has no potential for art

>>713042378
See >>713042517

>>713030793 (OP)
i agree. thinking games need validation only devalues them.

>>713042395
Hey everyone, please validate me. I CAN'T HANDLE SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET HAVING A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN ME! REEEEEEEEEE

>>713042756
anon the more you avatarfag the more desparate and sad you seem
KWAB

>>713030793 (OP)
Art is unnecessary. If everyone just did their jobs, humanity would be utopian.

>>713042730
The validation comes from the customer enjoyment and sales.

>>713043249
are you just angry that he made fun of kingdom hearts lore

>>713030793 (OP)
i think yahtzee is kind of a fag but mostly because of his slow decline to being on the same political level as jim stirling

>>713043572
Nah, he has yet to troon out or talk exclusively about politics
Maybe a few jabs at orange man here and there but not on the level of ol' jimbob

>>713043630
didn't he do a big rant about harry potter or some shit? i also remember him explicitly wishing for all trump voters to die ina recent vid

>>713042028
In theory, someone could build an entire building as part of the art.

Which, is kind of what they do with video games, y'know.

>>713042294
Architecture is art.
The building is not 99% of the time.
Any artistic and Asthetic parts of it are meant to add to the functionality.
>Example: Brutalism. Used for government building.
With the exception of shrines and arguably churches, all Asthetics are meant to add to the utility of a building and the building is meant to function. If the building serves no purpose it is abandoned or destroyed no matter how beautiful it is.
This does not happen with art peices unless they are deemed "bad"...
But this will frequently happen with buildings that people deem beautiful.
>>713044034
You raise a valid point, and I would point out my earlier statement on visual novels being art while videogames are not.
>But to bring it back to the original analogy of the art gallery does not consider the building an art peice.
And art gallery can go on tour, the same peices can be displayed in somewhere as beautiful as a historic museum or as functional as a warehouse. While you can say both aren't the same, a team goes through great lengths to make lighting, order and staging as close to what they intend as possible.
The gallery itself isn't art, but It is a way to experience the art.
The money exchanged to experience the art, is not art. It is a medium of exchange for the value of the experience.
The building housing it is not art. It may have architectural design, but that design is function as per demand, not an expression if human spirit.

Is this a little pedantic? Yeah.
However the key difference is when games are not treated as art, they transcend their own entertainment medium to produce the highest quality experience so amazing it is like exploring the Louve.
The Louve is not art, it houses priceless art and should be cherished and respected for it's ability to elevate art.
When you treat games as art you get pretentious hisper 8bit faggotry, walking simulators about being a faggot in a dysfunctional family, cringe political propaganda, and no fun.

>>713043419
Always square-enix niggers. What literal decades without a single good game will do to someone.

>>713043419
Imagine being so butt hurt someone made memes making fun of your edaddy that you desperately tried to find out where it came from and make logical sense out of how someone could not love some faggot washed up eceleb as you?
>You are close but technically not correct
>I got it from Kingdom Yhatz article (specifically cause it showed how ugly he is while trying to look smug and condescending)
>I fucking hate kingdom hearts and think the story makes no sense and the gameplay is trash.
I keep doing it because current Yahtzee fan boys still think he is some untouchable internet God, when in reality he has been a washed up eceleb who has made horrible business decisions repeatedly but got lucky the first time.
And honestly, he hasn't been funny since 2013 when most people tuned out, grew up, and cared about more important shit.

>>713046469
Imagine writing all this out in the throes and actually hitting the post button. Could not be me.

>>713030959
fucking retard yourself

>>713046610
Suuuuuueeeyyy

>>713046751
Extremely happy I don't know who any of those people are and very sad you seem to think they're worth remembering

>>713043419
Btw here is a blank version so lazy people can make their own.
Please don't make Yahtzee say anything that he would not agree with. He cares a lot about his public image

>>713039823
Nigger you are trans

>>713046824
I am unsure if you are serious and mean this as a "burn"
Or know are being sarcastic and know EXACTLY why that response is funny.

Either way I laughed. Good job.

>>713030793 (OP)
>Videogames are not art
Why? Because a random journo says so?

>>713047175
Why don't you make a few more comically long fakesquotes for each of them to tell me who they are since you seem so invested.

>>713047061
Worse, unironic post 2013 Yahtzee fans.
These aren't Stephanie Sterling levels of retard, they are people who would willingly have sex with Stephanie Sterling retarded.

>>713047347
I will.

>>713047307
>Game Journo being made fun of is a faggot who screetches videogames are art
>All their faggot game Journo friends push the same narrative that videogames are art
>"Hurrr Durrr, so u tink vidya gamez rnt art cuz sum gamejourno said they aren't?!?!"
I'm gonna let you think about what you said for a bit rather than chastize you further.

>>713030793 (OP)
making a good video game is an art
but its not Art

>>713030793 (OP)
>>A board game like Monopoly is not "art"
>>A deck of cards is not art
>>Playing TAG with friends is not art
>>A jump rope isn't "art"
i hate people who try to sound smart

anyone with half a brain knows that art is subjective. perfect example of this is how that guy taped a banana to a wall once in a museum

games are toys that contain artistic elements, cope & seethe all you want

some games are art
some games are slop

>make something that makes people feel a certain way
I bet OP is a stupid retard who thinks a well crafted chair isn't art.
>IT'S JUST SOMETHING YOU SIT IN

OP is so retarded, he doesn't understand the different between a folding chair holding on for dear life under his fat ass, and a throne that is designed and crafted, infused with the blood of children. Like they used to make in the olden days.

>AAA slop
>Dwarf Fortress
>OP: "They are the same thing!!!!"

Yikes, OP. Yikes.

>>713047765
Correct.
>>713047791
>Stop trying to sound smart
>A guy taped a banana to a wall so everything is basically art.
You missed the entire second portion of what I said and your example proves it as I specifically used Dadaism to make that point.
>Treating videogames as art only lowers the quality of videogames and opens the door to grifters releasing shit products for grant money rather than focusing on what the customer wants.
By your standards NOTHING IS ART SO EVERYTHING IS ART.
This isn't true otherwise commodities markets would charge artistic surcharges.

But I will break down further why games aren't art.
>When a painting is made, the painter owns the painting until sold.
>When a movie is made, the studio owns the movie with limitations on what they can do per the director and editor ensuring their vision is what is seen and some reworked slop doesn't get recast and have their name on it listed as their art.
>When a song is made, the artist and the label own the song. Who ever owns the masters owns the song rights, however even if a label screw the artist, the artist does not have to create what they do not wish to.
>when a videogame is made, the company that developed it 100% owns everything and can do whatever they want with it and all art made for the game is sold to the development company for the sake of being showcased in the product and the artist has no say or rights to what happens next. Does not matter what the "vision" someone has, if said artist doesn't make what they are told to make that is grounds for termination.

One of these things is not like the others

>>713049024
>This videogame made me feel something there for it is art
Well shit nigga, if your standard is that low the subway I ate gave me indigestion therefore it is art.

These threads are always filled with the biggest pseuds on this entire fucking site.

>>713048880
There is an argument that visual novels can technically be classified as art.
There is nothing wrong with videogames not being art. Why are people so triggered over it?

>>713030793 (OP)
Man he's looking rough.

Anyway the Dustborn guy, Ragnar Tørnquist, has been getting art grants since The Longest Journey in 1999, I don't think one internet guy had much to do with it.

>>713031515
>>713030793 (OP)
Games are art but not pesudo movie shit like modern devs want to make

>>713049751
>I don't think one guy had much to do with it.
You're correct, it isn't a single stick but a bundle of faggots responsible for all this faggotry.
I think art grant to games (even if they get one or two correct) drags down over all quality because the financial incentives no longer line up with what customers want, it lines up with who ever hands out the grant money wants.
It also doesn't solve any issue with games.
>If game sucks, it doesn't get money and gets no future installments
>If game good, game gets money and future installments
>If game good but did not sell well, cult classic status ensures future remakes or potential follow up from investors
Market kinda fixes everything.
Add government money to the mix.... well you get longest journey and DUSTBORNE.

>>713050468
You're right, I don't disagree.
Funny story, it was impossible for the developers of Hollow Knight to get a game art grant, because they were making a game and not a vehicle for government values, so they just submitted it to Melbourne Australia's film art grant board instead and got the cash from them instead.

schizo thread

>>713047467
I actually look forward to it

>>713050434
Art does not require your interaction.
The fact that the artist making the game focusing more on what they want you to see and less on what you are allowed to do in their sandbox only further drives that point home.
Videogames have art in them, they can make you feel emotions, but they are not art because that would make the player the artist.

>>713050889
>Art does not require your interaction
But video games do. And the way you interact with them and how the devs have set up the rules and world is art.

Again, peseudo movie shit like the last of us is NOT art while something like Breath of the Wild is.

>>713050636
Clever.
Funny thing is I am not necessarily against certain types of grants and tax breaks going to game devs.
>That Hollowknight story is a perfect example of why videogame grants are retarded. Meanwhile the film grant board could see the obvious even if they were bending the definition of animation.
>Kingdom of Alumar 1 & 2 notoriously got state employment grants
>Frequently to encourage devs to be in their state, states will give MASSIVE tax rebates and bonuses. Why? Because even if the game fails, the revenue from the employment is the goal.
The problem with videogame art grants and treating videogames as "art" is the people in charge of handing out the grant money are government beauracrats who rarely do their research.
It rarely ever helps the next Toby Fox or Hideo Kajima make a style of game that no company was willing to take a risk to make... it helps fund "consulting firms" and create the next "DUSTBORNE" or helps already greedy corporations suck up more money via hiring grant writers

>>713045872
You're still stuck in this worldview where art is something you hang on a wall in a gallery, when actually no, the room itself can be an immersive piece of art, and an entire building could in theory be a piece of art.

>>713049024
HR Giger designed chairs.

>>713051159
>Last of us is not art
That is a bold take, but I respect it despite knowing it will make a lot of people reeeeeeeee hard.
>Breath of the wild is art
I can see the confusion.
My argument can seem a little semantics heavy, but I understand why you feel that way. It makes you feel so many things. It creates unique moments that tell insane individual stories you only experience in your play through. The music, the art style, the cut scenes.
Breath of the wild is an art galary. It lets you loose with a brush of your own and lets you paint on the walls next to the paintings. It lets the band play the right songs for the right mood.
It is an experience.
And experience is not art.
That does not make it less than art.
Frankly a lot of "art" is overhyped overrated dog shit.
But an experience cannot get away with saying they are art and delivering a banana taped to a wall. It must deliver something memorable worth paying a price to be experience.
I hope you see I am not trying to deminish what you cherish by pointing out that it is not art.

Am I art?

>>713052151
>an experience is not art
A lot of artists I've spoken to wouldn't agree. I remember hearing about a particular art installation, where the entire gimmick was they would invite people into a room, and try to start a fight with them.

>>713051932
What kind of art does the artist not own any rights to, a company can compell them to make something the artist does not want to make or risk termination, the developer can change absolutely everything about the product at any time for any reason while still having it credited to the artist as their vision, and the interaction with the medium produces the art making the player the artist?
At best videogames would be a blank canvas.
A canvas is not art, its a medium for creating art.

How do the "art has to be seen, but not interacted with" people account for things like Pantomime?
for that matter, how do you account for forms of live music where playing to the crowd is part of the whole routine? How do you account for DJ's who read the energy of the room, and respond to it?

>>713052256
That's not art, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen

>>713052461
What do you mean? Fucking loads of art is made to order. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, for one.

If you want to be the sole creator of a video game, and have absolute creative control, do it. People have, and continue to do this.

>>713052482
A concert isn't art.
Art is performed at a concert, but it is a venue for art to be enjoyed.
Pantomime encourages audience interaction, but if the audience refuses to interact, the show goes on.
DJ's are not artists, they play art to maximize engagement from the crowd.

>>713052813
>A DJ's set is not an artistic construction in and of itself
Hohoh. You're going to start some fights with that opinion.

>>713030793 (OP)
Games are art, or at least they can be. They are an interactive artistic medium.
The problem comes from self congratulatory fart sniffers prioritizing making a piece of art INSTEAD of a game.
They should be games first and foremost.

>>713030793 (OP)
It is true that games are not art, they are games, but that doesn't mean games can't be artistic. If you have a beautiful chessboard crafted by a talented artist is that not art because of it's proximity to the game of chess? Similarly if a game has a beautiful art style you could call it "art" because there is art within the game. However the gameplay mechanics are not art, that is a game, and games have existed as long as art has. It is not an insult to say games are not art because it isn't its function. Just like saying cars are not art. However if somebody calls the Cobra 427 a piece of art you don't say "no cars are not art they are cars" like an autist. I don't know why people have this inane argument daily.

>>713052719
Does the vatican change any of Michaelangelos art after the fact with someone else and claim it as Michaelangelo's?
No. But videogame companies do.
Can they commission and request? Sure, but can they compell and micromanage exactly what Michaelangelo expresses via his brush?
No. It is seen as the clients fault for not understanding what the style would be.

>Sole creator games
There is an argument these COULD be art... but again the art comes from the player playing which would make the player the artist. No player, no art.
Meanwhile a concert, play or show can play to a completely empty venue and still be unchanged and exactly as the creator intended even with no one to witness it.

>>713053231
>Capitalism does morally questionable things to art, therefore it isn't art
I'm not following your logic.

>>713053231
>Meanwhile a concert, play or show can play to a completely empty venue and still be unchanged and exactly as the creator intended even with no one to witness it.
Doubt. Good performers play to an audience. it's a two way conversation.
Very basic example, a comedian has to pace himself around the laughter of the crowd.

>>713052890
I'll take it a step further.
A DJ could be completely replaced with an AI because hitting play on a laptop isn't a skill.

>>713053548
Good DJ's are effectively creating new pieces of music out of what they work with.

>>713050468
That fucking image.

I agree with this sentiment.
The whole
>VIDYAGAEMZ ARE ART!!!
Brought upon a bunch of retards who don't like videogames or gameplay and instead want interactive experiences.
On the other hand, there's actual emotional aspects linking to gameplay that I would consider art in the medium.
For example
>Pikmin
Videogame as an artform
>Last of Us
A shit tier B movie experience that uses gameplay to move forward the narrative.

>>713053548
Woah.... easy with the faenity.

>>713053687
You not liking pretentious art people has no bearing on whether video games are or should be art though. It's literally irrelevant to the conversation, which is a conversation of semantics.

>>713053781
Read again.
>The exploration of the human experience while interacting with machines in a playful manner
Art
>A watered down chimera of other mediums to create a product that is inferior as a whole
Not art.
Pretty simple.

>>713046949
i dont think anyone cares about this as much as you lmao
good luck though schizoid

>>713053935
Shitty blockbuster cinematic games are still art. They're just boring art for stupid people, who are only impressed by things that superficially resemble movies.

>>713053935
>Not art
it still is
because art is, overall, a meaningless term
the label on a dog food can can be considered art as well - just doesn't make it good or important art

>>713053403
I'll go further.
Without a player, the game is nothing. The game cannot play itself and what is percieved as art is the players doing, not the creator.
The less control given to the player, the worse the game usually is for it.
>>713053525
Comedians make short rant videos to empty cameras all the time.
Maria Bamford has an entire special where she performs only to 2 people (her parents)
At The Drive In actually scored their record deal because the band played all out to an empty venue in LA and the only person who stopped by the bar for a drink was impressed that som band would go so crazy on stage playing for essentially no one put the bar staff.

With a game, the art does not come from the designers, it comes from the player projecting onto the product, making the player the artist.
The player is not an artist, they are the player.

>>713054056
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xyvQQSbX5o

>>713054035
>>713054036
>le art is le subjective
Wrong.

>>713054110
>le art is objective (i like = art i dont like = fart
False.

>>713054150
You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension.
Cinematic experience shit isn't videogames as an art because gameplay is minimal to experience the end goal. Which is why that shit translates so easily into B tier TV shows, because, essentially, that's what they are.
Videogames as an art form are things that can only be experienced through gameplay. In that sense, they are closer to performative art.

>>713054110
I didn't say that. My stance is that absolutely every video game ever made is art.

>>713030793 (OP)
You never get tired of making those sloppy threads?

>>713053687
>The whole videogames are art brought in retards who don't like videogames or gameplay
I think this is why I used to be on the side of videogames are art, then found myself realizing slowly they aren't art but are a vehicle for art to be experienced.
Some of my strongest emotions were felt durring games and their stories.
How could that not be art?
>Then the art school faggots invaded the industry, conventions and every aspect of the medium preaching that they were art but only doing it for a check and adoration they felt entitled to.
I witnessed not only videogames no longer seem like art, but the media parade lowest common denomination slop as art cause their hipster faggot friends paid an indian on fiver to make it.
>>713053781
Technically correct, but kinda harsh and poorly worded.
This is why i qualified treating videogames as art and recognizing them as art only opens the door to more of the cancer that kills games and drags the medium down.

As I originally said, videogames are not art.
Another reason why this is the case is a skill level issue can stop someone dead in their tracks from continuing the experience and further enjoying the art on display.
No other art medium requires a skill level.

>>713030793 (OP)
"Art" is a nonsense term, used by midwits.

>>713054712
I find people's explanations for why video games are art far more of a reach than people's explanations for why they aren't (because a video game is a very clear and obvious work of artistic expression), so I have to conclude that they're art.
Not amount of "I FUCKING HATE ARTFAGS WARBLGARBLGARBL" is going to change my stance, because it's not based on who I want to be friends with. It's based on what I actually think, and perceive.

>>713054712
>No other art medium requires a skill level.
Well that's plain incorrect. You need to be able to read, to read a book.
One might argue that looking at a painting and "getting it" is also a skill.

>>713054904
I can disagree with you and respect you opinion...
Of course with the retarded slop that passes as "art" now a days why anyone would want to lump a beloved hobby in with "modern art" is beyond me.

>>713050468
>needs a pic of a minority for article
>it's a quirky sassy black queen with dreads.

>>713055276
I don't want or not want to. It's just the truth.
The statement "video games are art" means as much to me as "wood is made of trees".

>>713055001
This is true. There's some certain level of skill required to properly enjoy art.
The average movie goer will just see a movie for what they see with their eyes and think it's a good movie. A person that understands cinematography would be marvelled by the technique required for composition or certain shots.
Same with music. A modern example is electronic music, which most people will listen to dance or get "pumped" when an electronic music producer will consciously or subconsciously try to examine build ups or synthesis.
I think literature requires tons of skill and training visualization.

The problem with involving skill with art is that it leads to all kinds of "the sky is blue" pretentiousness.
In that sense, videogames are the medium that gives a more immediate payback by through skill ceiling.

>>713055001
You can still absorb and not understand.
If you cannot read, audiobooks exist.
If you don't understand some words, you can pause and look it up or keep going knowing damn well you don't understand the full meaning.

The difference with videogames is your ability to progess further whether you get it or not is capped at your skill. End of story. Git gud scrub.
You cannot experience the art to completion. Even if you "dont get it" you are denied the experience further.

>>713055604
watch it on youtube

>fake quotes from Yahtzee
>random babbling about art and games
>complaining about woke shit
What's the purpose of this thread?

>>713030793 (OP)
Anything can be art by definition. That aside the problem with modern art video games is that they’re big budget mainstream oriented products. Traditional art like a sculpture might be enjoyed by everyone if it looks good but only a select few fully appreciate it for all the it is. If you produce a mainstream product in a similar aspect and expect the latter to become the majority because of marketing and culminating a large audience it isn’t going to work out. People like different things but all have their select few preferences they lean towards.

>>713055676
Ironically, paradoxically and undeniably, a lets play of a videogame is art.
Seems weird right? How can the game not be art but some one playing, recording and sharing it is?
Because the playing sharing and recording is someone painting on the canvas of software to create an experience that resonates emotionally.
The player is what makes a videogame art. Them recording and sharing that is them sharing their art.

>>713055921
nah, that's stupid. the game is art.

>>713055921
NTA but you are a legitimately low IQ person.

>>713055713
Try reading the thread and having something to say rather than begging to be spoonfed faggot

>>713055993
>sharty wojak

>>713055963
The game is the canvas that the art is created on.... not the art itself

>>713056175
no, sweety

>>713030793 (OP)
>Games contain art but are not art themselves.
Yes.
The closest analogue I can think of is a guided tour through a gallery with a set path for the audience to take. It's not even a building, it's the method for how the art is portrayed. Ultimately you need to reach a designated endpoint to see all the art on a route and thegame ends.
Walking through the gallery is the game. You can't force that to be art even if art could be made out of walking the tour.

>>713056321
In this case, the artist has also created the halls, and the shoes you're wearing.

>>713056321
Bingo

>>713055713
schizophrenia and avatarfagging masquerading as intellectual conversation about the definition of art

>>713056321
The gallery is a fundamental part of the artistic experience and is often designed by the same artist as the art pieces being displayed. So it's art.

>>713031515
>26 years later and not a single game that is similar to xenogears

>>713030959
Lmao the thread ended less than 3 minutes after it was made, and retards have been posting in it for... almost 6 hours jfc

>>713056739
@grok What is Xenogears about? What makes it different from other JRPGs?

>>713030793 (OP)
Not every video game is art, but also art doesn't mean good.
Video games are kind of in a weird spot were they go in a spectrum from game to art.
Something like a competitive shooter is pure game, it's basically a sport (hence e-sports), while something like a VN or a walking sim is barely a game and it's closer to traditional art.
This doesn't mean that one is better than the other, there's amazing competitive games and shitty VNs, and viceversa.

>>713040465
I remember 10 years ago when he was pretty firmly anti-sjw, but I guess it's only political when you disagree.

>>713056321
>>713056690
They could make people take the tour in any imaginable way but me going through it is what a game is. Have the audience crawl through the gallery for all I care, it won't make crawling itself an art.

>>713056420
>>713057589

>>713030793 (OP)
Grim.

>>713057771
Preferable to a fedora

>>713057090
He hated Tumblrites that's different from hating all leftists.

>>713056739
xenosaga is a more refined version of the devs vision and xeno blade is the magnum opus

>>713030793 (OP)
Anything created by humans that isn't a tool is art. And even tools can be art if they are given embellishments that are purely aesthetic.
Ipso facto, games are art.

Now fuck off.

Kek story tranny btfo

The people who screech the hardest that video games are art always have abysmal taste in literature (if any).

Lesson there.

>>713058278
You are a gentleman and a scholar

>>713031515
>gnocious jrpgtroonslop
>art
This is why we will never see true art on form of videogame

I don't really tend to mesh well with games made by self-proclaimed "artists" because I find them to have their heads up their own ass. I do think that video games can have art, but the devs need to have enough humility and self-awareness to not turn their games into narcissistic self-fellation. Most "artist" game devs don't have seem to be capable of that. I'm not really all that interest in playing a game centered entirely around the creator's over-inflated ego.

>>713058181
Fuck you.
If it lacks the intention it can't be art or every single shit I take is art.
Your example of a tool being art is also faulty. An art piece hammer that is used just as a tool ceases to be art as it is no longer communicating anything. An object can also be a tool with art and not have to be art entirely.

>>713030793 (OP)
desu i see the counter argument to it but im really on the fence about the subject. i have seen some of the most beautiful 3d (and 2d) art in a video game, also amazing soundtracks, and dialogue that borderlines on poetry, but i realize its still a "game" at heart. so idk i see both sides i guess

>>713033917
>>713035871
really the definition of "fun" is incredibly broad and can include just about anything that is entertaining and enjoyable, even in a strange, twisted way(e.g. rage games like Surgeon Simulator or Getting Over It)

>>713058687
>If it lacks the intention
Intention is inherent because it was created. If intention was not there then it would not have been created.

>An art piece hammer that is used just as a tool ceases to be art as it is no longer communicating anything.
Incorrect, it communicates that the person who used the tool cared enough to decorate it, or to use a decorated variety rather than a standard model.

yahtzee is the best

>>713058181
>>713058687
Now that I think about it more, the intention of the artist with the art piece hammer never disappears so I was wrong there.
But I think the analogy is faulty and you can't equate a game and art. Try to graft art in the rules of any game, because that's what a game is, and see how you will either fail always or prove me wrong.

There is nothing wrong with the idea of trying to make an art piece that conveys its ideas in the form of a game. The problem is humans, where midwits and pseudo-intellectual developers/publishers use it as an excuse to present themselves as high brow. The argument that games cannot be art by definition is flawed and is the honestly the wrong argument to make when the reason people are making these arguments and having discussions is because of the existence of the pseuds who started trying to make their shitty games out to be more than they are.

>>713059646
It's not about whether it can or can't. The competition to make art in the form of a game has been around for two decades, and video games have already lost their roots because of it.

>>713030793 (OP)
The word “art” has lost all meaning.
I prefer Plato’s use of the word “art” or τέχνη. “the ART of acting”, “the ART of shepherding”.
In that sense yes game development is an art.

You may want to discuss the similarities or differences between the ART of game development and the art of painting, thats another matter.

>>713059237
The artist essentially has to say "this is art" by wanting it to communicate something or it can't be art.

The user of the hammer isn't relevant in if it's art or not as I realized after posting, it's the artist that gave the object that quality and until it is transfigured into something that no longer communicates anything, it is art. The object can contain art or be art but it is not relevant at all to the question at hand what the person using the hammer wants to communicate.

>>713030793 (OP)
The art in games is transformed by the game which recontextualizes all of it. It's not just an art gallery. You take the role of characters and follow rules, which provides more context than just being a passive observer.
>Monopoly isn't art
Maybe the current iteration, but the original was conceived of as a critique against landlords and the act of playing it is art, rather than just the art associated with the game pieces. The gamification of something turns into art if the thing it gamifies is a narrative or philosophy, rather than pure mental or physical exercise.

>>713060018
What do you lose when you say "the act of shepherding" instead of "the art of shepherding"?
And if you're implying games are art because you can say "the art of game development", are the sheep in the pen, or in whatever kind of location desired, art?

>>713059810
>It's not about whether it can or can't
Literally tons of the posts in this thread are literally arguing exactly about that. YOU might not have been, sure.

>>713060534
Don't think of an actual gallery as a place but as a set of rules and instructions for viewing the art. That's what a game is.

Let's say that you can't call a game art. But can you call it artisanal?

>>713030793 (OP)
Define "art", OP.

>>713030793 (OP)
good, art is for faggots and I don't want faggots queering up my videogames with the aids and shit

>>713043712
yes
he said their families can die in a fire too

>>713031515
That's a video game, sir, and an incomplete one at that with a bad translation

>>713049603
>visual novels
Pffffft. Having lots of words doesn't make 90% of the genre pure slop. 90% of VNs are experiences for otaku who are too retarded to read a book and need constant fetish bait and waifu to stay stimulated.
There's a reason why your average Higurashi reader hasn't touched Suda 51's older works despite being well regarded VNs, it doesn't have the otaku slop aspect.

Video games are art the same way CYOA books are art. That's about range of "art" both have, then again I believe videogames to be more artisanal than artistic but who the fuck cares.

>>713054712
>No other art medium requires a skill level.
Video games are a new medium though, applying rules to older art forms and not acknowledging that video games clearly can't be measured by the same old standards due to being intractable is beyond retarded.
This is exactly why no one takes "Video games aren't art!" crowd seriously, you faggots never bother to actually consider the new possibilities it brings to the table and the implications of that.

>>713060918
NTA but the meaning of the art is affected by the way it is experienced. A gallery is not (usually) made as a part of the art and I think the anon(s) using that as an example is dumb. A better example would be interactive art pieces, which do exist. The interaction is a part of what gives the art meaning and is intentionally designed to do so, and thus the "art" in that case is the whole experience, not just the object or whatever it is to be experienced. Therefore, games that can be called art. And furthermore, anything can be called art if it is 1. intended to have meaning and 2. communicated. But as wikipedia says, not everyone agrees on the definition of art. But I think many at least agree with this definition.

Anyway, whether games should be called art by their creators and/or fans is another issue. And of course they shouldn't, we know that enshitifies the medium.

What difference does it make if something is art or not anyways?

>>713039873
Remakes of movies that are loved more than the originals exist as well.

Did OP get ridiculed on stream or something? How could you even get this angry at a guy that makes short game reviews and has 0 internet presence past that LMAO

>>713039873
The live-action remake of How to Train Your Dragon recouped its budget in less than a week.
Most Disney live action slop made their money back, many of them even had a 1 billion box office.
Faggot.

>>713061815
I have this image in my head of the rules and instructions for experiencing the art piece sort of sticking out of it in a text form, being a physical part of it. All the displays could even share this text, creating a theme and linking some or all of them into multiple or one complete work. Does that make sense to you? The game, in regards to this specific debate, is the rules and instructions facilitating all the interaction with the art.

>>713062595
I guess another way to put this is I'm essentially saing a book is not art but what it contains, the art and what it creates with the words and art within it, is.

>>713062595
That doesn't make sense though? A game is not just instructions and rules but an entire set of things that come together and was designed to come together to form an experience. The set of multisensory stimuli, including the instructions/rules, is the game. You would not call the rules of Monopoly a game, but rather the board, the pieces, the rules, and the experience of playing it together with other people, that's the game.

>>713062925
To me, the rules are the game. Switch out every single piece to something else and draw a board in sand, or don't, just give a numerical value to locations and have that roll over to 1 at certain values and name everything something different while maintaining internal consistency. It's still Monopoly.
The stimuli is part of the art contained.

>>713063365
In the case of Monopoly maybe the board they manufactured and the pieces don't matter much to the identity of the game, but that's not necessarily true for every game.
>The stimuli is part of the art contained
And the overall experience of something is part of the stimuli contained.

>>713032793
Wrong. When games are viewed as nothing more than a product then remakes flourish and are even praised. You don’t see this shit with other art forms where they rightfully ridicule remasters, remakes, and reboots because they actually value the artistic integrity of the original. This shit you spewed was irrelevant nonsense.

>>713063610
I'm trying to work through a thought experiment where two video games, say, Stellar Blade and one of the Ninja Gaiden games switch every story and audiovisual element but keep the mechanics. That's not quite equivalent to trying to get a sculpture in a frame and putting the canvas on top of a stand, right?
I am also considering the stimuli thing. Currently I think just with the rules you can have fun.

>>713064568
I'm not sure why you would be trying to do that. The discussion was about whether games can be considered art right? I argued that games can be, but I didn't say they all are. Many games probably can not be, because they were not ever intended to be art by the creators and importantly the set of stimuli they provide do not holistically convey meaning, but rather an experience mostly devoid of meaningfulness. But I suppose some may argue that the very act of providing entertainment is meaningful, and technically that might be true, as any idea has meaning by definition, but it certainly doesn't bring to mind a high meaningfulness that one would associate with real art.

>>713041765
Yep, no one is pushing boundaries, and instead it seems like we are regressing.

Deus Ex SHOULD feel outdated, and instead it is still a revolutionary game.

>>713065284
I was trying to explore how meaningful the interactions between the rules and other elements were and I see the points I think you and the other anon were trying to make. I have to admit I accept that video games can be art but I can't guarantee I will hold that opinion.

>>713030793 (OP)
WERNER ZIEGLER???

>>713057984
lol

>>713034975
Every time I consider watching a Yahtzee video I remember this and how much of a fucking faggot he is for it

>>713039997
>>713041765
>It could be art, but it isn't growing into art like it should be.
Every artform had decades to centuries of growing pains, this is nothing special. It's just that we're living in the era of those pains so games as genuinely compelling artworks are both few and are not particularly marketable because they require investment of money and manpower on par with or surpassing movies, but can't be just passively consumed.

But there are absolutely games that deserve to be considered art, but have only niche cult followings or go under the radar. Journey, Noita, OFF, Sunless Seas/Skies, Odin Sphere, Hotline Miami, Portal, El Shaddai, Psychonauts, Jet Set Radio Future, Cuphead, basically anything Supergiant, Return of the Obra Dinn, Pathologic, Who's Lila, Sygnalis, Half Life: Alyx, Disco Elysium, Outer Wilds, etc.

>>713033370
That image is perfect, saved

>>713060098
There's prob a million things in the world which the creator never intended to be art, but was retroactively assigned that label by others. Art isn't just about what the artist wanted to communicate, it's also about what the observer can interpret.

>>713030793 (OP)
>art means government grants
are you out of your fucking mind lad

Video games cannot be art until Roger Ebert lays off the fatty foods.

>>713068206
Well he has been for the past 11 years.

video games arent art and they never will be, they are either toys for adults or dressed up money extractors, everytime someone attempts to make something "greater" than one of those it ends up failing because nobody plays video games for any reason other than having fun, and the only people who think video games have to be a mature meaningful medium are brain damaged libtards who seem to intentionally be making the worst stories possible for god knows what reason

>>713067719
How does that not completely strip any meaningful distinction between something that is art and something that is not? I think I could extend the definition of art to things that no one had a hand in creating by claiming a grain of sand is there because the entire face of the planet could be molded into something different and the current state of any thing, including the grain of sand, is a choice we made in not shuffling everything around and thus it represents something like "Should we be content with the current state of things?".
You're free to add interpretations onto things made to be interpreted but adding them into anything else seems nonsensical.

>>713031515
and you just proved it

>>713030793 (OP)
videogames are like nature, art occurs organically within it, but if you try to create art in nature, it looks like shit.

>>713043419
Oh, so that's where the schizo came from. Makes sense

>>713032425
Music doesn't have to be art, sculpting and paintings don't have to be art nor storytelling. It can all just be entertainment, decoration and bravado.

>>713057984
lmao
>>713069486
cope harder

Just transition already OP

Kneel

>>713076324
Ladies, contain your orgasm

>>713068260
Around the last time Yahtzee was funny.

>>713030793 (OP)
>yes it is, even in the abstract sense you're alluding to since it's an intentionally boring game as a form of social criticism
>yes it is
>yes it is
>yes it is

>>713030793 (OP)
Games are not art, but games can be artistic, same as movies. This is a distinction many fail to make because they have room temperature IQ. They're definitionally a medium.

>>713076324
Does he still cope that "ummmm ackshully its not a fedora it's a trillby"

>>713030793 (OP)
This guy is proof that men can hit the wall. He's only two years older than me and yet he looks at least a decade more haggard.
Is sitting around playing videogames and being negative all day THAT bad for your hairline? Shit...

>>713077484
Nah, movies are art and so are games. cinepanettoni and fifa games aren't but the medium itself is.

>>713077654
Case in point, games and movies are mediums, not art themselves. You're effectively saying a canvas is art, it's just a completely retarded thing to say.

>>713077707
>You're effectively saying a canvas is art
I'm not? I'm saying that the medium itself isn't just a container for other arts, but something that can stand out on its own. There are things you can't do with a book or in theater, but you can do in a movie and the same goes for games

>>713077865
>Nah, movies are art and so are games
You literally just did, and then you went on to agree with me anyway. You don't even have a good grasp on what you're fucking saying.

>>713077707
This is a retarded distinction. By that logic a painting is not inherently art, its just the medium by which art can be delivered.

>>713077990
God you're fucking stupid. The PAINTING is art, the canvas is a MEDIUM for that art, for video games and movies, the medium is a lot more abstract than a canvas is, but they are definitionally mediums. Narrative, visual and audio elements within video games are what is art, not the video game itself.

>>713078115
Retard, this is YOUR fucking stupid logic. The paint is a medium, but it can be used to display narrative and visual elements. If this sounds retarded, then I agree, you ARE a retard.

>>713078115
>FF7 is art, the ps1 is a MEDIUM for that art
so games are art?

somenes 'avin a melty, innit

>>713030793 (OP)
This is the absolute correct opinion and anything else is just being subversive to corrupt the medium

>>713039997
This. The reason is that the motivation behind 90% of "games are art" posting is fundamentally narcissistic. It's pseuds and tourists trying to find a way to make themselves feel better about what they do with their free time.

>>713030793 (OP)
Kind of has a point. Typically when an art form dies it devolves itself into two camps. The fancy shmancy arthouse stuff that nobody but critics and fags like. And the commercial grade trash that's simply been made to sell.

>>713030793 (OP)
Now that's a TRVKE!!!

>I am the King of Art
>art is only what I say it is, and art is never what I say it isn't
>anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, because they just are, okay

Oxford defines art as "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."
How does vidya not fall under that? Games are an expression of human creativity and imagination and they evoke an emotional response. Even Pong makes you feel something when you play.

>>713030793 (OP)
If you think art is some special inherently valuable thing then you need to grow up. If shitting on a canvas is art, then there is no way that a video game lick bad rats is below that in any metric.

>>713080314
>Oxford defines art as "the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination... producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power."
Because of the 2nd part
>producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
The beauty and emotion are secondary to the gameplay. You can have the most beautiful game on Earth with an emotional story, if the mechanics are ass, the game is trash regardless of its beauty.

Now lets focus on the first part
>the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination
Humans help the process, but at the end of the day it is a corporate product that is not driven by creative skill for creating an emotional response, it is driven for a profit motive by market research.

so videogames aren't art. The content made from a game is art. Playing them is art. But the game itself is not art, no matter how incredible it is

>>713076324
THANK YOU FOR THIS.
Oh boy I am gonna have some fun today.
>>713067626
Thank you. I appreciate when I see the stuff I caption get shared around and go viral.
>>713073013
Bro, I took the rest of the day off and worked on my home and ran errands after having fun making quick text edits of dumb pictures expressing obvious short comings I find funny.... you stayed in this thread seething over an eceleb who has nothing but open disdain for you admiring them.
Maybe find a more productive use for your time? It's what your Edaddy would tell you to do.

Videogames? Art.
Sports? Art.
Gardening? Art.
Martial arts? It's in the name. Simple as.

>>713056616
>Schizophrenia
You say this world, but I do not think you understand what it means.

>>713082360
lol, I skipped most of the thread, made one post and left the tab open to see if there are going to be more embarrassments. But have fun blogging and posting your kiwifarm shit here, while making shit up in your head.

Oh wow another of these ones gee op you got me

>>713082559
>Gardening: Art
LMAO. Factory farmers are modern day DaVincis
>Sports: art
Literally not true by any standard.
>Martial arts
The only exception due to the performative movement aspect of forms when not fighting.
However this varies on the style. Boxing is not an art. Wresting or MMA is not an art.
Kung fu is an art.
Karate is an art.
Escrema is an art.
But none of these are an art when in practical use.

>>713056739
I say this with zero irony, zero hesitation, but YIIK if you play each separate update is hauntingly close to Xenogears conceptually.

>>713030793 (OP)
the secret is to consider games like tetris as art and not games with 2deep4u stories

>>713082907
>I didn't read the thread
>Okay, I kept responding but only cause I leave tabs open and have zero impulse control.
>I bet you blog on Kiwifarms! Reeeeeee
Uh oh, someone is butt hurt.
You should email your edaddy telling him you defended his reputation on an image board. Maybe he'll give you a handjob.

>>713031898
I can't interpret gardening or home repairs the way I could a movie, a work of literature, or a painting. But I can do that with a video game. We can treat video games as art in all respects and so it seems ludicrous to insist they are anything else.

>>713083547
I agree with the people who say even if you believe games are art, you should resist treating them as such.
Nothing good comes from it.
Do you want the same pretentious art faggots at NYC gallas making demands at gaming conventions for a dress code and etiquette?
Do you want film critics giving publisheslrs feed back to have more cutscenes and less gameplay?
Do you want some music critic demanding Sabrina Carpenter have exclusive tracks on the next COD?

who or what does it help to put a bunch of your own spite-filled words over photos of a guy you've never met and doesn't know you exist?

>>713083789
I think the issue stems from wanting recognition

>>713083789
So basically your argument is that it's better to ignore objective reality in favour of a comforting fantasy? That tracks tbqhwy

>>713030793 (OP)
Video games aren't art. They exist above art as a medium

https://www.moma.org/collection/works/164920

Museum of modern art disagrees, pick related

>>713083789
see
>>713084421

>>713030793 (OP)
>>713030793 (OP)
>>713030793 (OP)
>>713030793 (OP)
>>713030793 (OP)
False, see pic related. Pure art. Also: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1853200/TYRONE_vs_COPS/

TL;DR: They are, but it's better for the games to pretend they aren't

>>713084421
>Museum of modern art disagrees
of course they do. Anything they can bring in to justify their art degrees as gainful employment.
>Modern art
aren't these the same faggots that say a banana duct taped to a wall is "art"?
>>713084418
Correct.

By the way, pornography is not considered art by either the art critics or the supreme court.
Anyone care to square the circle of how videogames are art but porn is not?

>>713085221
A respectable opinion that even those who do not see them as art can agree with.

>>713085241
>of course they do. Anything they can bring in to justify their art degrees as gainful employment.
Why do they need video games for that? Believe it or not but there's enough stuff to fill the MoMA without resorting to video games.

still undefeated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s

>>713041268
Freud are Jung are seen as laughable these days.

>>713085049
This is where "games are art" leads.
>Games are art and should be in museums along side van gogh
>Super hero comics are literature that should be mandatory reading along side Jonathan Swift and Harper Lee
>Gooning is a spiritual experience on par with Buddhist meditation and Christian prayer
>Youtube commentary channels are cinema on par with TV and movies
We went to far looking back on things we did not consider art only to consider them art in retrospective like movies, radio, genres of music, etc.
And when left with nothing but tolerance and acceptance you then open the floodgates to people who will use academia for its credibility to justify all childish impulses they have

>>713085724
I thought I would hate this, but that was actually pretty good