I never played this when it first came out and I'm playing it now for the first time. I don't care about spoilers so I read stuff online. Why does literally everyone online hate Ulfric? It seems to be 10 to 1 people who side with the empire and they're really jingoistic about it too. I think part of the appeal of WRPGs is they try to present a neutral stance and give justifiable reasons to join factions so I'm surprised how one-sided it is for people.

>>3808390 (OP)
Based
>A-anonsama, you can't repost the same thread again, please!
>Anon-sama mercilessly fingers /vrpg/-kun as she moans helplessly, clear fluid joy streaming down her pubescent legs.
He can't keep getting away with it (he will).
He can't keep getting away with it.

>>3808390 (OP)
>handsome
>charismatic
>smart
>strong
>btfos elves and liberals
Chudfric is too based for them

>>3808390 (OP)
>Why does literally everyone online hate Ulfric?
Lefties with orange man bad derangement syndrome
>b-b-but he’s a RACIST

He's more or less an unaware tool supporting the (((Altmer's))) eternal quest to end the world.

>>3808390 (OP)
Because when you enter Windhelm there is a dumb evil white man bullying a poor black elf so Ulfric is a nazi and erasure of all cultures under the globohomo empire is the solution.

>>3808471
>Nords: you immigrants consume our resources, don’t assimilate, and refuse to help us in our war, because you are a separate population and will always retain a separate identity and separate interests
>Dark elf: but we haven’t joined your side because it’s not our fight!
Imagine literally restating your opponents argument in an attempt to refute it

>>3808465
The empire signed the white gold concordat, they are being run by the Thalmor overtly and legally. The Thalmor benefit from the civil war, not a free skyrim. Ulfric is based.

>>3808660
but but but the "dossier" says that the Thalmor tried to make him work for them and he refused, HE"S LITERALLY AN ASSET

>>3808666
bait this terrible doesn't deserve those digits

>>3808682
im retarded

>>3808660
The only thing that the concordat allows is religious control and implementation, and the Empire wants to kill them just as much as anyone else. The only reason they can't act is because they JUST had a massive war that drained both powers significantly.

>>3808829
>only religious control and implementation
buddy thats the only thing that matters, especially in the Empire founded by Tiber Septim

>>3808841
Nu-empire has no connection to the Septim bloodline, that's why it's collapsing. Humans should be uniting themselves, but I honestly don't know if people are entirely aware in-canon what the Aldmeri's end goal is.

>>3808842
I think Hammerfell and Skyrim could get the nobles of Daggerfall to rebel and join in a loose anti-aldmeri pact, maybe even black marsh and Morrowind would join. If the Khajiit learn the truth of the void nights they would join too. It wouldn't be another empire but could fight the Aldmeri Dominion. No centralised leader but a unifying cause.

>>3808847
Maybe, I mean Hammerfell was able to hold it's own (not that it has a tower for them Aldmeri to really care). I doubt Daggerfall will break off though, because not only is it heavily centralized after the Dragonbreak, but they've also always been depicted as a pretty heavy core territory of the Empire. That might change depending on how, or if, they decided on the civil war.
Actually, it's just sort of depressing thinking about future events of the series. TES6 will probably be garbage.

>>3808851
Supposing Skyrim gets independence then there would be no land route from Cyrodil to Daggerfall, and sea routes pass rebel provinces coastlines, and are just long as hell. Logistics would be terrible. Nobles may want more freedom and less taxes, and we know Daggerfall has a massive nobility and knightly caste.

Really don't understand how anyone could side with the empire. The entire aesthetics of the game basically demands that the player go Stormcloaks. The rugged snow-capped mountains, the Nordic warrior chanting. I mean it's called SKYRIM not Imperial Economic Zone #6.

>>3809176
Do you understand someone choosing a race that isn't nord?

>>3809184
>Do you understand someone choosing a race that isn't nord?
No.

>>3809184
I play Breton but I pretend that he is half nord. Even when I play high elf I give him a beard and pretend he is half nord and then join stormcloaks.

>>3809186
A little close-minded then

>>3809195
You like to dance close to the fire, don’t you?

>>3809196
Seen any elves lately? Hahaha

>>3808390 (OP)
Because he's an Aryan man who is objectively in the right in every possible way. If the story was kept exactly the same, but happened in Hammerfell and Ulfric was a redguard, 99% of redditors would be pro-Ulfric.

All the hate against Ulfric comes from the fact there is a "racist" in Windhelm, his town, who's not even part of his army, is completely right about the bitch he's insulting being a spy (and she's also a slaver who starves Argonians and makes racist comments towards them too), and is infinitely less racist than the average dunmer. It's all mentally ill leftists wanting to "protect da dark races against evil whitey" and ignoring everything that's going on.

>>3808537
This. Plus you can find one dunmer who owns a farm outside the walls and has Nords working for him, and he tells you plain and simple his race are just lazy whiners. And if you go to the dunmer inn, the little cunt in charge insults other dunmers for working for Nords, as if there was anyone else to work for around. And both him and his assistant are dunmer supremacist assholes who spit on the dead Nord woman who was kind to them.

>>3809176
>Really don't understand how anyone could side with the empire.
Without the slightest irony, this is the real answer: The common leftist/normie plays the game normally and sees the empire trying to kill them, he starts out thinking "they're probably the bad guys". They then eventually end up visiting Windhelm, they see "le racist nazi in the streets", and they think to themselves "oh I thought they could be the good guys, but there is an evil racist nazi in that town who says he supports the Stormcloaks, so they're obviously the bad guys, I'm so smart, people who hate the Empire are just butthurt about the intro sequence and do not have an incredibly high IQ like me to realize that racism is bad!".

Every single pro-empire you have ever interacted with has shut off their brains forever after encountering Rolff, they found le evil nazi racist, things are settled forever in their minds and no debate or thoughts is possible.

Because the game mostly depicts him as a bumbling incompetent.

>>3809260
Apart from getting captured in the intro, that's blatantly false. He's shown to be courageous, honest, honorable, capable of great resolve and perseverance (learning shouts with the Greybeards), to value the lives of both his soldiers and civilians, he personally chose Jorleif to be his steward because he tells him things straight with no ass licking, and he conquered half of Skyrim with diplomacy and the righteousness of his cause despite almost unlimited funds and efforts from the imperials to demonize him, going as far as to torture and execute people for supporting the Stormcloaks.

It's fascinating how blatantly right and morally good Ulfric is, and how all of that is discarded by commies because he belongs to the one race they hate and wish to genocide as their rabbinic overlords taught them.

>>3809222
fuck off the Empire/Emperor has been the sole force of stability for Tamriel for the entire series up to that point.

>>3809350
>has
Past tense.

From what I've seen, most Ulfric criticism can be organized into a few categories
>1. muh racist
>2. He's weakning the empire which just means everyone will lose to Thalmor in the end/he isn't a 4D chess player like me
>3. He's only in it because he's a narcissist/selfish/obsessed with power.
>4. He used a shout in the duel against the high king/betrayed the Greybeards

1 and 3 are too retarded to warrant a response. 4 I genuinely don't understand because what could be more appropriate than using a shout in a duel between two Nords.
2 is always presented as hard-hitting political analysis and as though Ulfric is simply unaware of the consequences of his actions, which seems like a total strawman. Also the Empire just got their ass kicked anyways so what difference does it make.

>>3809366
Correct.

>4 I genuinely don't understand
They seethe that the duel "wasn't fair" as in "but Ulfric was too strong!" which is exactly the point, or they ignore the Nords' custom and adopt the colonizer imperial viewpoint (peak irony) of "we make the rules, fuck their traditions".

2 is just retarded normies thinking the Empire is going to unite everyone (completely ignoring all the context of the game that shows why it will never happen) and very badly reading the Thalmor Dossier.

The thing is, normies aren't interested in facts, they just do what they do irl: repeat lugenpresse they just heard without the slightest ounce of critical thought. They heard someone who never met Ulfric say he's selfish? Then he is, done, no thinking needed. It's what they do for everything, muh empire getting back up, muh unfair duel, muh racism, muh helping the Thalmor...

>altmer playthrough
>join thieves guild to get money for college
>join college to learn magic
>join dawnguard to kill annoying vampires
>discover the bow of auriel
>akatosh himself is giving you his artifact, maybe there's something to these dragon prophecies
>start main quest
>join the stormcloaks to weaken the empire
>assassinate the emperor
>switch sides, have the weakened, emperorless empire win the war
>kill Miraak and fuck off into legends
>alternate between nightingale armor, mythic dawn robes and archmage robes + that last dragon mask when fighting Miraak
I can't really bring myself to play anything else after going through with this. Bethesda should have me as a writer.

>>3809176
because a Nord founded the Empire. it's the Empire of Man, not the empire of cyrodils

>>3809366
>4 I genuinely don't understand because what could be more appropriate than using a shout in a duel between two Nords.
Shouts are rare, bro used it on a boy king. Like using a nuke on a small country. Too OP, people get scared of a tyrant who can't control himself.

If he wanted to make a point about weak imperials, he could have mogged the boy without using shouts. Mistake on Ulfric's part. Not a good look. Desperate, even.

>>3809385
>t. redditor
The entire point of using the Voice is that it's an ancient Nordic art that proves Ulfric's faith to the Nordic tradition, his power and his virtue, it takes years of meditation and training to learn a single shout. Ulfric proved he was a true Nord, the truest Nord alive bar maybe the Dovahkiin if he's a Nord.

It's not a mistake, it's only portrayed as one by the imperial lugenpresse, and if he did not use a shout, then they'd make up that he stabbed Torygg in the back or fought dishonorable or some other lie.

>>3808390 (OP)
So the game sets it up so you're more likely to pick Stormcloaks at the start. You *can* go with the empire, but they just tried to cut your head off and its easier to find the stormcloak guy.

I suspect because of that the game put more effort into 'subverting' things by making Ulfric just kind of insufferable. He's basically a massive hypocrite, generally dishonourable and an obvious useful idiot for the Elves.

Some stuff Ulfric does which would annoy people, in no particular order.

He has the voice because he learnt it from the Greybeards - who swear to use it for peace. He obviously isnt' doing that so he's an oathbreaker. He uses it to kill the High King in a duel. A duel which 1) was not meant to be to the death 2) He could have won without the voice because he was just a better warrior than the king, so he denied the guy a fair fight for no reason 3) the king he killed actually respected him and had his own doubts and probably would have listened if Ulfric had just talked to him.
When you speak to the king post-death (it's complicated) he's now very pissed off at being dishonourably murdered by someone he liked and who left his wife a grieving widow.

(Usually magic is a big no no for Nords, it's seen as cowardly and dishonourable outside of restoration and using it in the duel is arguably just murder. The only reason his shouting the king apart wouldn't count would be because the voice is not called magic.)

In-universe the whole thing comes across as a pointlessly violent powergrab that was in no way necessary and makes people nervous of him. If Ulfric had just dueled him, won and then let the king live (usually the loser is exiled) as was tradition then he'd have been in the same or better position and probably have more widespread support. Instead he outs himself as a violent shithead.

CONT

>>3809389
He can prove his shouting ability without using it to kill the boy

>>3808390 (OP)
>>3809391
CONT

There's also a lot of 'what the fuck' about his war for independence. Go west and you will enter the Reach, full of a bunch of pissed off people called the Forsworn or Reachmen. They're pissed because *they* tried fighting for their independance and Ulfric was responsible of brutally war criming them into the ground, which has left them now a lot more ruthless and violent. So his own acts come across as hypocritical. Skyrim for the Nords but not Reach for the Reachmen.

The final thing is that the war between the Empire and Skyrim is weakening them both, when the Thalmor are the common enemy that wants both dead. The peace treaty the empire signed everyone views as just 'waiting until the next war starts' and the empire needs to be prepared and strong. Ulfric has started a violent rebellion and playing into the Thalmor's hands.

TL;DR - Ulfric could be viewed as a genuine rebel fighting for the independence of his homeland, or a hypocritical idiot who has started an unnecessary bloody civil war which is weakening his homeland and his homeland's longest ally just so he can seize power and murder people.

>>3809391
>Ulfric just kind of insufferable. He's basically a massive hypocrite, generally dishonourable and an obvious useful idiot for the Elves.
Go back to r*ddit

Your entire post is full of lies, and you blame Ulfric for breaking an oath when he did to protect the whole of humanity against the elves instead of adhering to the deranged teachings of a weak piece of shit who made up the rule that the Voice isn't for war just because he lost one.

>>3809393
He can, and many already knew about his ability, but doing it that way is an extremely powerful symbol, and only an imperial propagandist or a r*ddit retard would find any issue with the way the duel unfolded. Ulfric used the only legal means that exists to replace a weak and incompetent ruler (who spent all his time pillaging the State's coffins to entertain his wife and wasn't respected or liked by anyone), announced his intentions clearly, Torygg accepted the duel, and Ulfric won in the chaddest possible way, with the Empire able to do nothing but seethe and behead the janitor who opened the door (after no crime was committed) as petty revenge.

This thread is again proof that every human being is pro-Stormcloak, and everyone against them is a literal r*dditor.

If Ulfric's so strong, how come he surrendered to the imperial legion at the start of the game?

>>3809394
Replying only to inform the human beings, as you're just some r*dditor commie. Ulfric did not massacre the Reachmen, every evidence points to the father of the current Jarl of Markarth doing it. Not a single Reachmen, either outside or in Cidna Mine, blames Ulfric for the massacres, not one, they all only say "the Jarl", clearly referring to the one they knew, it makes no sense for the culprit to be Ulfric and not a single Forsworn to reference that.

The current Jarl is an atrocious piece of shit who blatantly admits Ulfric was betrayed, then acts shocked that Ulfric is pissed at this and didn't accept to meekly die to uphold the WGC's "peace". Ulfric did not have the authority to command massive war crimes against the Reachmen, and he didn't have a reason to, it was just a deal to him to restore the worship of Talos. The only (((evidence))) you have of Ulfric '"The Bear of Markarth) being guilty is an admitted imperial propaganda book written by an Imperial scholar in the Imperial city.

And spare me the dindu Forsworn, you don't in barely 25 years at most go to ubiquitous terrorism, ritualistic sacrifice of children, black magic including necromancy, hagravens, and constant massacre of everyone who isn't in their tribe for genuinely no reason such as the woman who was just bathing in a pond and got 15 arrows to the back. They were evil pieces of shit from the beginning, and Forsworns deserve to be exterminated to the last.

>>3809394
People who complain about Ulfric weakening the Empire really remind me a lot of that Democrat NPC "Come on we're going to fight Russia" meme.

>>3809400
>Ulfric won in the chaddest possible way
Imagine if he mogged him without using OP shit, that would be more chad.
>you're redditor you're redditor you're redditor
I side with stormcloaks, so this does nothing but make you look retarded.

>>3809400
If my post was full of lies you'd be actually pointing out the lies. Since it's not and is completely accurate you can't do that and instead choose to whine. Which is silly really because I'd be happy to discuss ES lore otherwise.

> of a weak piece of shit who made up the rule that the Voice isn't for war just because he lost one.

It's completely reasonable to say that the voice should not be restricted just to hanging out on a mountain not doing much. I'd agree myself.
The problem is not using the voice for war, but breaking oaths (religious ones in this case, which is a bit awkward for a stormcloak claiming religion to fight back). Most functioning societies see lying as bad.
I'd actually still be pretty okay with Ulfric using his voice in war since i'd want to put the lives of my soldiers first.
However using it on the High King was completely needless violence: he was protecting no one and didnt need it, so he's just completely going against everything the Greybeards teach. May as well piss on them too.

>>3809408
Indeed. Just gotta look at the malding r*dditor spewing the same tired judenpresse as they all do. Every Stormcloak hater is a genuine anti-Aryan deranged golem, they'd all be sucking his cock and claiming freedom for Wakanda if he was Tyrone Thundercock from Hammerfell.

Just further proof that they don't care about muh imperialism, they only hate it if it's Aryans doing it, when it's the mutt imperials oppressing Nords through ubiquitous terrorism and torture, suddenly it's all okay, but don't you dare make a mean comment about the dunmer darkies. You can't have any discussion with malevolent creaturas de la abominacion del obscuridad that only live to hate Aryans out of jealousy.

>>3809409
>this does nothing but make you look retarded.
what if he’s doing it on purpose?

>>3809419
What for?

>>3808829
>they JUST had a massive war
anon, that was 25 years ago.

>>3809222
anybody who doesn't go along with Ralof in the beginning is a comatose lobotomy patient. As if Hadvar would cut you loose like that (I mean he does but normally? In our world he most likely wouldn't.).

>>3810491
>that was 25 years ago.
That's about the time it takes for a government to fix a pothole

>>3810491
Imperials can't understand time, they legit cried to the janny tranny to give me a temp ban for calling them out.

>>3810491
Barely even a generation

>>3808390 (OP)
What a way to get a thread started
>guiz I don’t know about this big argument you’ve all been having. Can you rehash it for me?

>Empire agrees to ban Talos worship and lets (((Thalmor))) death squads wander the land and arrest, torture, and kill Talos worshippers
Empire is no longer legitimate. Simple as.

>>3810587
Talos himself in Morrowind says so. The Empire by the time of Skyrim is 200 years of constant losses under an illegitimate dynasty since the legitimate one is dead. The entire nobility and military is either infiltrated or actively cooperating, and the elite of the Empire can be summoned without contest, unarmed, to a secluded location surrounded by Thalmor soldiers. The Dominion can pull a red wedding on the Empire's elite before the first soldier even enters the battlefield, the Empire is utterly fucked.

The last chance for the Empire to redeem itself was to let Ulfric proclaim Skyrim's independence with a secret deal that he allows the Empire to organize plans for the next war against the Dominion there, and of course that Ulfric promise to help in that endeavor. Instead, they chose to pursue the suicidal endeavor of genociding the Nords for daring to want to fight the elves, thus crippling both Skyrim and the Empire. This shows the Empire doesn't plan to fight the Thalmor in at least the next 25 years if they're ready to go to such lengths to self-sabotage. The Empire tortures innocent civilians to death and feeds them to vampires rather than do anything about the pointy ears.

>>3810594
>let Ulfric proclaim Skyrim's independence
And the other provinces?

>>3810606
The Empire is literally just Skyrim, High-Rock and Cyrodiil. With Skyrim's independence, High-Rock factually is as well since no routes exist connecting it to Cyrodiil. Still, they should be on decent terms enough to help in the next war.

The Empire shills always adopt the false axiom that the Empire wants to fight back, but it's false, it's doing everything it can to avoid any fight in at the very least the next 15 years, and it's doing nothing to fix its crippled economy or corrupt nobility and military.

Important to remember that Lucan and his sister are in Riverwood because they fled Cyrodiil due to common bandits burning down main cities, it's how weak and pathetic the Empire is at this point. Also the same reason Cicero is in Skyrim.

>>3810611
>Still, they should be on decent terms enough to help in the next war.
>it's how weak and pathetic the Empire is
So it's a bit naive to think High Rock would be willing to sacrifice for a dying Empire

>>3810616
There is a difference between sacrificing yourself and allying yourself with other human races when the time for fighting comes. Plus High-Rock is specialized in magic, meaning they can be much less at risk than the frontline soldiers. Skyrim shuns magic currently, and Cyrodiil has had its magical institutions completely corrupted by nepotism and general incompetence.

>>3810617
>There is a difference between sacrificing yourself and allying yourself with other human races
Diverting resources and men to Cyrodiil weakens High Rock and leaves it vulnerable.

>>3810617
>Cyrodiil has had its magical institutions completely corrupted by nepotism and general incompetence
This common anti-Semitic canard has been repeatedly debunked

>>3810632
>leaves it vulnerable.
To who? Only the Aldmeri could be a threat, and if they send their main army to Cyrodiil or the fighting is taken to them, they won't have enough to try anything against High-Rock.

>>3810633
Kek

>>3810637
>>leaves it vulnerable.
>To who?
Consider what happens after the war. Or during.

>>3808390 (OP)
This conflict does a good job of outting right-wing nationalists as the lying death cult faggots they truly are.
>muh empire is decaying anyway
>muh chad Nords shouldn't debase themselves with Imperial politicking
>killing the High King based on ancient Nord traditions is based
Notice how these aren't real arguments based on any empirical evidence. They're just appealing to vibes. If you accept any notion of strategy at all, it's just fucking obvious that starting a whole ass Civil War while a hostile foreign power is preparing to conquer you is a really retarded idea. That's why said hostile foreign power is actively meddling behind the scenes to secretly support Ulfric and prolong the Civil War.

The real Stormcloak position is "I would rather die than accept any compromise to my way of life" but they're too chickenshit to actually say that because they know it would crater support. So instead they lie and insist they're so chad and manly that their rural backwater with limited manpower, resources, and industry can totally take on every foreign power at once. And stupid peasants with no knowledge of the military situation or outside world fall for it.

>>3810758
Weird schizo-babble.

>If you accept any notion of strategy
My notion of strategy is that you shouldn't let your entire elite be defenseless and surrounded by Thalmor soldiers whenever asked, your leaders shouldn't all be utterly compromised and openly collaborating gleefully with the enemy, your military shouldn't have Thalmor agents breathing down their necks every step to make sure they don't do anything the Thalmor don't want, and you shouldn't butcher your own army and allies and cripple yourself for the next 20 years when confronted with the choice.

Tell me how an Empire that is ruined, has no spy network like the Blades before, can't protect its main cities from common bandits, only lost territories and never won any in the last 200 years, has an entirely corrupt elite willingly collaborating, is ubiquitously spied on by Thalmors to the point making any sort of plan without their knowledge is impossible, has sent a clearly clueless and incapable of diplomacy general who almost caused mutinies because of his sheer arrogance, and has done nothing but capitulate for the last 25 years, is going to do anything?

The minute the Empire seriously tries to do anything, half its elite will be put to the sword, the plan will be found out, and the remaining elites will all either cower in fear or say "serves them right" about those who tried to resist and continue enjoying Thalmor money.

The Empire's only chance was collaborating with Ulfric, and they categorically refused. They'd rather destroy their own forces and allies than go against any Thalmor wishes. Genuinely all the Empire had to do was to let Skyrim become independent with an official oopsie, and make secret deals with Ulfric, that's all they needed to eventually win, but they relinquished that and chose to fight for the Thalmor, against humanity.

>>3810758
Life is vibes. Life is error and perspective and determination. Life is not accepting compromise. Stormcloaks do say "I would rather die than accept any compromise to my way of life" and that got them an army that is successfully fighting a continent spanning Empire.

>>3810758
are you that sissy from fnv threads who says caesar's legion is fascistic?
>muh empire is decaying anyway
the empire has not been legitimate since the death of martin septim, the game tells you as much every step of the way. the say it in morrowind for fuck's sake
>muh chad Nords shouldn't debase themselves with Imperial politicking
i don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. no, you shouldn't negotiate with elves who actively seek the destruction of the world
>killing the High King based on ancient Nord traditions is based
it's not "based" you fucking moron it's the way things go. it's not tradition, it's law. you can switch to saying you don't like the law but it's a retarded point.
lastly, learn some basic epistemology before using terms like "empirical evidence"

>>3811014
>empirical evidence
Empirical evidence is evidence that makes the Empire look good, duh

>>3808390 (OP)
Idk, I always side with stormcloaks because I'm a nord. Imperials tried to kill me and they wear skirts. They're pretty gay.

>>3809366
>muh racist
How's this even an argument to some people? Every race in elders scroll is racist against other races. Every race think they're better then every other race, just like real life.

>>3809409
>Imagine if he mogged him without using OP shit, that would be more chad.
What's more chad then blasting him away with a sonic boom voice? The game is literally about how chad a dragonborn is and how cool and powerful and respected the voice is. Oh look I can stab him with a sword, which anyone else can do, or I can be a badass and use this godly skill to show how powerful I am.

>>3811065
>How's this even an argument to some people?
Decades of conditioned self-loathing due to exposure to (((propaganda))) since childhood.

So, any fanfics where Harkon's plan goes to shit because either Alduin or Miraak find out and go 'fuck vampires'?

>>3811070
>What's more chad then blasting him away with a sonic boom voice? The game is literally about how chad a dragonborn is
Chad dragonborn uses his power to defend skyrim against dragons and the world eater

Virgin usurper uses his power against a boy king (who was symphatetic to his cause anyways and worshipped talos), divides skyrim and starts a civil war killing countless nords that end up as alduin's snacks for him to grow even more powerful

>>3811065
There are genuine threads on r*ddit debating whether the dunmer are oppressed jews or oppressed browns. Those "people" are just insane antifas aka anti-Aryans, and they hate the Nords for being Nordic, that's all. They don't care about and can't understand the context, universe, lore, or anything, darkie said, so darkie is right, whitey is bad.

>>3811070
Plus every guard in the kingdom being mesmerized at the idea when they talk about it "with his VOICE, shouted him apart".

>>3811296
>usurper
Entirely false, Ulfric challenged Torygg because it's the only legal way to remove a king, Torygg accepted with full knowledge and no tricks, and he lost, that's it.

>boy
The only reason he's called that is because of how much of a weak cuck he is, the guy in his 30s.

>sympathetic to his cause anyways
What does it matter if he does nothing about it? And that sentence comes from his vampire nanny who mindcontrolled him and tells you one sentence later that "akshually the Empire is entirely necessary for Skyrim and Torygg understood that".

>divides skyrim
Half the country rallied him diplomatically, it's the Empire that led coup to oust legitimate Jarls and replace them with absolute scum like Siddgeir, tortured countless innocents to stop any talk of independence and practiced general terrorism.

>killing countless nords
All on the Empire, those Nords would have died to Thalmor terrorism and Imperial incompetence anyway.

As always, Empire stans are pathological liars antifas. Everything they say is a putrid lie, and they still act as if they've got some moral high ground, because that is how egalitarians think. "Me perfect good because Jew-psyop-46 said it, everyone who disagrees has a mental illness".

>>3811298
>a weak cuck
Oh no better use my shout powers to kill him, otherwise I might not win and flee through the back door and lose the support of half of skyrim for acting like a future tyrant

>>3810758
I love how Skyrim is both a rural incompetent backwater and an essential component to imperial victory depending on which shitbag leftist doublethink argument is currently being deployed.

>>3811729
>rural incompetent backwater and an essential component to imperial victory
Rural folk can make for hardy warriors

The shout thing is weird. The common people seem totally mystified by what happened, like they don't even know what Thu'um is.
At the same time, the existence of the Greybeards seems to be general knowledge, so I don't know how they couldn't know.
I guess it is kind of a lost art that they would never witness normally. But then how was Ulfric identified as gifted and sent to train with the Greybeards? There are only 4 of them, has no one else been trained besides them and Ulfric?

Nords suck empire suck. I always play a highelf. Stupid fucking humans just let everything goto shit, let the thalmor win and reestablish some authority.

Ulfric is a dumb redneck who got in way too deep, forcing him to start a stupid civil war he can never win. The empire are completely useless and have been for a while. Martin Septim was a shit head who should have done more to prepare for the oblivion crisis, instead all he does is make bastard sons. The last good ruler of the empire was a highelf.

Thalmor aren't perfect but they got their shit together after the crisis. They're the only other power actually able to maintain an alliance between different regions. Humans had their chance and they blew it.