Thread 7715462

>be me
>25 year old failure of a human being who can't find a job in 3 years of trying
>become very depressed
>read manga to feel better
>beautiful art is the only thing that gets me through the day
>start to wonder if I can make art
>start drawing
>progress is slow and painful, every book I start I crash out by chapter 2-3 because my drawings don't look like the examples no matter how hard I try
>I must be doing something wrong, I must not have the correct most perfect study material
>local college has a 1 yr art fundamentals program to prepare people to apply for their animation and illustration program
>perfect
>mfw figure drawing class we are working from books of Bridgeman, Morpho, Vilppu etc.
>mfw we study composition from Loomis
>mfw literally the IC sticky all along
>the teachers know that this isn't a "serious" program so almost no one fails due to the quality of the work but the workload is psychotic
>half my class drops by the end of first term
I have done a stem undergrad and never worked so hard as this stupid art program in my life
>literally did nothing but draw and paint for whole year
>kicked my CSGO addiction cause I didn't have time lmao
>watching some of my classmates improve like crazy
>one kid wanted to get into animation so bad I was sure that he would khs if he didn't get in
>spent literally every night going to extra nudes to gesture for 3-4 hours on top of course work
>mfw he actually improved a lot over the year and has just started anim this term
>figure teacher is beyond cracked
>everyone saying how she so talented
>she tells us she was below avg at art school
>she graduated in the 90's and has been grinding the whole time since
not only are her lines so soulful that you could frame any single of her line of action in a museum, she was also so passionate and knowledgeable about anatomy that she could legit be a doctor
>mfw skill comes from mileage more than innate talent

Everyone suffered in the program but some people pushed to excel. I was barely keeping my head above water. I don't want to say I did the bare minimum, because I did try, but most of my assignments (especially at the end of term when finals and crunch hit) where just done so that I could pass. I am embarrassed at how bad basically all my work was, but deep down my ego is hurt the most by the knowledge that I did try very hard on most projects, and they still came out low-mid at best. Like it would be less embarrassing to say that I barely tried and it came out like this. Admitting that I put everything I had into a work and it came out like that hurts a lot.

Term 3 (the final one), I had a lot more choice on what classes I wanted to take and I was so burnt out on drawing that I decided to focus completely on 3D art. I learned blender from literally 0 to donut to character modelling, UV, texture painting, camera, rigging, and animation within 3-4 months. Spent legit 10 hours a day on blender on days when I didn't have class. Pulled all nighters, finished assignments the morning that they where due. I was so happy that I didn't have to worry about perspective and proportion and precision since all that was being handled by the computer for me, I thought I was being so clever and saving so much time and effort not drawing. Then the final project came around and I just needed 1 render of a city street with my character driving her car.
Just
One
Render
Then I realized that I would need to model and texture buildings, trees, cars, plants, garbage cans, street lights; even with various tricks like geometry nodes, it still meant modelling and texturing dozens of assets. I spent sooo long on this render that it would have been faster to just paint it (digitally). I even had to give up hand painting emissive textures and go for principled bsdf materials because it was taking so long to produce the assets that I wasn't going to make the deadline.

Cont.

The render came out fine, and I would argue it was the best 3D render in my class, but it also kinda sucks. It's the thing I'm most proud of in my whole art school exp, and I spent more time and effort on blender than on anything else, it felt like all my classmates where better than me at drawing and painting and graphic design but this was the one thing that I was actually good at (or at least passionate enough at to bleed for the most).
I passed the program 3 weeks ago. I've never been so physically and emotionally burnt out my life. I'm glad I took the program and I'm glad I passed it, but I don't plan on applying to any further study at formal art school. You have to be in peak physical and mental condition to just survive, thriving requires you to be all that and a super motivated, conscientious, and industrious person. It was beyond obvious in my program that some people were built different (not even in terms of talent or intelligence).

And now here I am, job search is as dead as ever, so I am back to sucking neetbux. I was planning on continuing to learn blender and I also started to learn Godot to try to make some games with my cute 3D characters.

Then last night I had a dream that I was drawing again and I woke up and was sad that I stopped drawing. Drawing is legit more difficult than painting. There is nothing like the nakedness of a clean line of ink or pencil to expose to the whole world what an imbecilic incompetent fraud that you are. I wanted to swear off drawing for good, to replace it with the strength and certainty of vector spaces and shader nodes. But I just want to draw again.

I wonder if it’s even worth bothering if you know that you have no innate talent for drawing, and probably will never be commercially successful with it. I realize that you can have anything you want but you can’t have everything, because we only get so much time in our lives.

Being good at figure drawing is like being good at drawing trees. It's like, okay, what else ya got?

>>7715465
Yeah but the problem was that she was all that. Painting, drawing, the whole shebang. Her anatomy stuff was incredible. Like half my professors could have legit been working as medical illustrators in times past.

>>7715464
>And now here I am, job search is as dead as ever, so I am back to sucking neetbux.

Because the market doesn't value the shit that art schools teach, dude. This little guy represents 13% of comic book sales in the U.S. Art schools are all distracted with ego and weird artificial principles. The actual ECONOMY does not give a fuck about that garbage.

I’m not friendless enough to read all that

>>7715468
I mean I went to a 1 year art fundamentals program, I haven't drawn at all since I was a kid and even though I made a lot of improvement in this year, I am still not anywhere near pro level. Maybe I'm a little above beg. I'm not looking for any art jobs, just basically anything like fast food level.

Also u are right in your sentiment, I did more still lives of shoes than I would ever want to. None of that really directly translates to drawing cute stylized characters lmao. Still, it was worth it just for the wisdom gained alone. I legit didn't know what hard work was before this experience.
>>7715470
I'm sorry for being bad please don't hurt me

>>7715464
>>7715463
>>7715462 (OP)
Relatable lol

I'm taking accountancy and I'd rather take a bullshit degree like art than this suicidal degree.

>>7715473
glad I'm not the only one lmao
>>7715478
If accounting will get you paid then the pain of the degree is only temporary. I did a useless stem major in a massively oversupplied field and have given up looking for work in my field years ago. That and the fact that I collect neetbux is the reason I'm just looking for min wage right now. I looked at accounting as a possible cert/college level degree and ofc in my area there are like 100x more certified accountants than work available.

There was a time in my life where I would have sold my body on the streets for a bit of extra cash, thankfully now I am on disability so I can at least survive. Funnily enough, the whole reason I even started to think about art was because I was so mindbroken from years of looking for literally any job without a single interview that I was considering rope. I don't think the human brain was built to handle 1000 rejections a year. Art pulled me out of a deep depression and since I had nothing else going for me I decided to take a chance on it. I'm sure it's just me copeing, but I interpret my situation as God telling me that I have to go all in on art. Self publishing a game on Steam or something is the only hope I have.

>>7715462 (OP)
>>7715463
>>7715464
lol I had similar experience. went for 3D because I got sick of drawing and decided I can get a better job this way. Turns out I fucking miss drawing and now I am back at being a neet and drawing. I don't even care anymore, I just want to draw. My goal is to manage 40h of drawing a week, right now I am around 25-30.

>>7715472
Do you expect someone doing a pre steam course to be an engineer at the end of one year?

>>7715472
>Also u are right in your sentiment, I did more still lives of shoes than I would ever want to. None of that really directly translates to drawing cute stylized characters lmao.

That's dumb as fuck. If you developed the proper observational skill you should be able to copy drawings of cute girls to study them and eventually draw your own

>>7715464
How do you just "get neetbux?" If I lost my job and had a meaningful gap in employment I don't think anyone would pay me anything (maybe unemployment) and I'd be on a 90 day time to suicide because I'd lose my house

>>7715492
>There was a time in my life where I would have sold my body on the streets for a bit of extra cash, thankfully now I am on disability so I can at least survive. Funnily enough, the whole reason I even started to think about art was because I was so mindbroken from years of looking for literally any job without a single interview that I was considering rope. I don't think the human brain was built to handle 1000 rejections a year.

Damn, that's rough. I'm sorry to hear that, anon. Glad to hear you've found something that gives you a new purpose.

>>7715462 (OP)
My journey has been similar, just with a lot less CBT. In middle/high school I used to be the 2nd worst and somehow managing to fail arts and crafts. Now I'm seeing decent improvement and noticing how many people just give up instead of pushing through. It really is all about perseverance and not giving up, talent is BS, sticking to it is the only secret.

>>7715520
damn that's a brutal blackpill. I'm still glad that I learned blender even if I decide to go all in on drawing again because a lot of pro mangeka use UE4 and other 3D software to reference things like environments and help solve difficult perspective problems. 3D could still be useful in 2D drawing.
>>7715523
Intellectually? No.
Emotionally? I've never been exposed to the "real" art world outside of browsing IC in my room alone before. I'll freely admit that there was a naive part of me that thought that I might be like that one comic artist (Jim Lee?) who went pro from like 1 year of grinding xD
>>7715526
I haven't really tested my cute girl drawing skills since finishing the program. I got really rusty since I basically had no time to do anything else but the course work. Today I started to warm up in that world again but it'll be like a week before we see if still lives translate to kawaii anime girls!
Not even joking tho, I learned colour theory from 0 to actually something. We spent so much time drilling various colour theory exercises that I learned so much. I didn't even know that brown was a tertiary colour before this program! I only vaguely knew the difference between hue, value and saturation, now I see the world totally differently.
>>7715538
I don't have a house and likely never will in my life. I had a chronic infection that was misdiagnosed as IBS for years. The worse the infection got the more aggressively I was sent to mindfulness and CBT therapy. I was probably days from death by the time the ER figured out and actually did something helpful. I was lucky to survive with the majority of my internal organs still internal.
I was too sick to work for a while after so I applied for unemployment but after a while it became clear that I wasn't recovering so they told me to apply for disability and I had like a half meter stack of medical reports, labs, biopsy, surgery, etc. so they just let me on without a fight.

>>7715702
yeah I dont regret learning 3D, I just discovered during my studies that I have no passion for it. I still plan to do 3d sculpting to print out figures of my characters, but my passion is in drawing. It's a useful skill to have for sure.
Anytime I didnt draw in my life I turned suicidal, so I am lucky that nobody is asking me to get a job right now and I can use the time to improve.

>>7715539
Thank you! I hope that I can make something good out of my unfortunate luck this run.
>>7715606
Glad to hear that you are pushing through it!
I was pretty black pilled about intelligence this year in that program. Like there were a couple of young people there who were the kindest and most gentle souls but who clearly had learning disabilities; like they just couldn't get 1 point perspective no matter how carefully and slowly you explained it to them. They failed a bunch of classes and had to retake them, some eventually dropped from the program. But I do agree that if you have a "normal" IQ then yes, hard work and hours > natural talent.

>>7715707
>Anytime I didnt draw in my life I turned suicidal
Yeah art definitely helped me stave off the rope ambitions too. If my brain wasn't activated in the way that it is by good art, I can imagine there is a world where I gave up and OD on pain meds or something.
Strangely, during my program, there were some weeks where I was so horrifically burnt out, running on fumes, barely any sleep, stressed out of my mind, like I actually cried more than once in the year (once or twice had to fight back tears in crit sessions too lmao). I remember wanting very badly sometimes to drop out, and the fantasy of it brought momentary relieve, but then thinking about the next day or the next week after dropping made me incredibly depressed - like I worried if I failed this and gave up on the only thing that gave some light to my life then I would rope 100%.

>>7715520
>My goal is to manage 40h of drawing a week, right now I am around 25-30.
The last 2 weeks of my program were like constant all nighters, barely ate anything, literally started getting very sick from stress. The first couple weeks after the program I must have slept 15 hours a day. I did nothing but eat and sleep and watch some stupid youtube podcast in bed.
Then I started to actually take care of myself, cooking, laundry, sorting out lots of life stuff that piled up while I was in Narnia for a year. I barely worked out at all in my last term, I've lost weight and def lost lots of endurance. I'm trying to start doing some cardio at least a couple times a week again.
25-30 hours is a already amazing! I'm not spooled up yet, so I am def not close to 25-30 hours this week!

Another wisdom I suppose that I gained from art school is that you can do a heroic sprint once or twice using fear or willpower, but you really need to find ways to make hours sustainable long term. For me because of my health, if I get lazy and buy processed food because it is quick and easy, then even if I don't feel terribly sick, I still feel just low energy, and crummy, and nauseous and low mood and stuff. One or two days days like this in a week can really kill my momentum. I didn't really have much of a choice, I had to learn how to cook from scratch because even processed foods advertised as "healthy" have so much shit in them that makes me sick (try to find a "healthy" snack that isn't loaded with sugars or artificial sweeteners lmao). Learning about stuff like ricecooker meals that can be done quickly and are very healthy literally carried me through this year.
I'm not accusing you of being unhealthy! My advice to MY pre art school self would be to focus less on hours spent drawing and a bit more on investing a few hours a week into healthy meal prep, and cardio 'cause that small investment almost double the quality of the hours I do spend drawing!

>>7715749
Did they give a explainer for the crunch? Was it the basic "sometimes you'll have to do this in the real world" (not true btw) bs. Sleep is my no.1 in life, I'd just drop out if they'd dare tread on my sleep time

>>7715773
>Was it the basic "sometimes you'll have to do this in the real world" (not true btw) bs.
I vividly remember our final painting class of the program, we had fallen a little behind because we switched teachers half way through due to summer vacation stuff. New teacher comes and sees that we are an assignment behind and she assigns basically 2 two week long assignments to be done in 1.5 weeks. I personally raised my hand and asked her if we can have a one week extension but she said those iconic words almost verbatim.
To be fair to her she wasn't mean or dismissive about it, she pulled out the syllabus and walked us through how if we don't catch up now, we would get like 1 week to completely finish our final painting (which would have taken way longer than that). She tried to tell us that in the real world (and this particular teacher was a gallery artist who sold works for tens of thousands a piece, so she wasn't exactly talking out of her ass) this stuff happens and you have to be prepared for it. This woman was so insane that she was showing us photos of her working on a painting while being very very pregnant. She said that she finished the painting and send it off to the client and then gave birth the next day. Other teachers who have worked in animation constantly remind us about how difficult the profession is. Nobody was mean or sadistic about it, but they definitely pushed us hard. Most of the teachers were nice enough to give you like a week extension if you asked but a couple of my friends fell into the trap of falling behind and then struggling all semester to catch up to the current work. I personally tried insanely hard to keep on top of everything. I was so afraid of falling behind that I did bad things like sacrificing my sleep and even lapsing on some medications.

The experience was worth having, but only once! I am definitely NOT signing up for 4 years of this!!!
Self learning is the way to go for me!

>>7715492
>I'm sure it's just me copeing, but I interpret my situation as God telling me that I have to go all in on art.
This is pretty much where I am too. I've been working in jobs everyone has told me are safe bets like the trades and the military since I was 19. I'm 25 now. I've just been trying to make enough money to live comfortably, but there's a problem with that mindset. People can smell when you don't actually give a shit about work, and nobody really offers you any opportunity to move upward in your career when they can tell, and when you don't move up and just plateau you end up falling behind, getting looked down upon by your coworkers, and possibly even laid off. Maybe if I was more of a social butterfly but it feels like to me your options for career progression are either actually be good at what you do, or be a brown noser. I'm autistic though and never actually had interest in the jobs I've done so I've continued to be outcompeted by my coworkers in every job I've had and couldn't be bothered.
I got burned pretty bad recently at my job. There was a lot of panic and stress over it for a few days, but after my anxiety started to wind back down I realized that if I keep going through life with this cynical bare minimum attitude I have I'm not ever going to actually succeed anywhere. You HAVE to be competitive to obtain opportunities in this economy, but you also have to actually care about what you're doing to be competitive. The only thing I actually care about improving or have any work ethic about is drawing, so I'm basically locked in if I actually following this belief.
I still got another year stuck in the military, but I've decided I'm just going to dive in and use my GI bill for art school once I'm done. I know the art industry is shit and known for taking advantage of the people but I think that's just the job market in totality these days. At least in the art industry I can actually at least attempt an honest shot at excelling.

>>7715918
I'm sorry to hear you've gone through that. I can frankly relate about being autistic. I was always bullied for being weird and introverted since I was a little kid, but imagine my shock and awe when I was the most outgoing and extroverted person in my class! Everyone was really shy and anxious so I kind of took on the role of the popular girl for the first time in my life and invited quiet people from our class to come sit with us and play cards and stuff during lunch!
Like being the least autistic person in a group full of autists and shy quiet artist types is actually a superpower lmao.
For some reason art school had a totally different vibe then my stem program. Maybe because in art school you aren't graded on a curve so there is no incentive sabotage each other?
>I've decided I'm just going to dive in and use my GI bill for art school once I'm done.
One of the scary things about art school is that it can cost like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Fortunately I my program was at a local college, my entire tuition cost me like 3 or 4 months of rent? The cost is so little that I definitely got my moneys worth, plus I have a very generous low interest loan from the government so I'm really not stressed about student loan repayments. If you can get a chance to go to school on a full ride from Uncle Sam then that would be amazing!
You should still apply for every grant and scholarship you possibly can as well! I saved a few hundred this way!
Just make sure you pick a school that isn't a joke/scam. Even though my college isn't exactly world renowned, every course was extremely serious. The fundamentals are the same everywhere after all. If the school uses actual models, then its probably a good school; if you sit around and do abstract finger paintings about the deep emotional experience of eating Cheetos instead of grinding colour theory exercises like limited pallet still lives etc. then its a scam school.

>>7715918
>I know the art industry is shit and known for taking advantage of the people but I think that's just the job market in totality these days. At least in the art industry I can actually at least attempt an honest shot at excelling.
I've seen an image reposted on this board a lot that's like a compilation of advice from professional artists, and one thing that keeps popping up is to live below your means. Even pro artists can sometimes be making loads of money, then the film/game/whatever they were working on is finished and it could take them a year or more to find work on another project. Surviving as an artist is all about cost control, something that I am very good at because surviving on my limited neetbux is tough if you aren't careful.
Also I read so many articles since covid where it is like "I used to make 300k at microsoft but then I got laid off and I can't find work for a year and have burned through all my savings and am about to be homeless".
If you are very budget conscious and you don't spend your money on crazy expenses like rapidly depreciating cars, then you can live a life even as an artist who isn't paid fabulously.
I personally would be very happy if I could earn a minimum wage income doing art.

>>7715462 (OP)
>>7715463
>>7715464
Any examples of your drawing work and 3D work?
I enjoyed reading this even though it might be bullshit or a pasta from r*ddit

>>7716029
Thank you!
I'm sure it's not a pasta, but if it is then I guess my experience is a lot less unique than I thought.
>Any examples of your drawing work and 3D work?
I was thinking of posting, but especially my 3D stuff would basically be an insta-dox (my character has a relatively distinct name and appearance).
If people are really interested, I can start finding some work and scrubbing my real name from it, but like I said, my figures and paintings and stuff are maybe just above beg tier, even my best work is nothing noteworthy.
(also I feel a bit embarrassed talking up how hard I worked and how many hours I've spent, 'cause I know when I post my work I'm going to get replies like "wow ur so shit I did this level after 2 weeks lmao shitter xdxd")

>>7716032
oh well i was just curious, and who gives a fuck about what some crabs think
and besides you're only 1 year into art if I read the OP correct

That workload sounds like hell. I wouldn't be able to take it. Even kindergarten was too much for me at times. I don't feel like there's any hope for me in anything.

>>7715467
anon was not asking about that. he was asking lf she could, for instance, finish an illustration, with an appealing and original composition. this is "art", the rest is just drawing. no one cares you can draw a trapezoid down to the muscle fiber, many flat color lineart ultra stylized works are rightfully considered masterpieces. anatomy courses are cool and necessary, but I feel something when I watch castle in the sky.

>>7715462 (OP)
I was thinking about going to an art school but the cheapest is in Canada (I live in the US) simply to motivate me to go to college. Was in a similar boat as you graduated in computer science didn't get a job but unfortunately when I'm finally able to understand that art is a grind and art schools were never about the degree do I get offered a job that leaves me unable to leave.

lmaoing at this thread
imagine thinking someone will read this shit

>>7716045
I don't know ur situation, maybe you have an undiagnosed learning disability like ADHD or autism or something. You might want to try to get that figured out and treated if possible, if something like kindergarten is overwhelming for you then that screams autism to me. Are you overwhelmed in large groups of people or loud places too?
Like I said, I wasn't really thriving, it was just pure survival at some point, but it did force me to reach down deeper than I ever had before. I wouldn't have considered myself as a person who was hard working at all, even in university in my stem program I was bullshitting a lot. Like if you knew how to study efficiently you could start studying 1 week before the midterm and final exam and get an A and spend the rest of the term partying and playing vidya. In art school you never have to write an exam (yay!) but everything is a project that takes a lot lot lot of time.
If you are diagnosed with a learning disability, you can get academic accommodations at almost every school. A couple of people in my class where taking a reduced course load from this so they where taking like 2 or 3 courses a term instead of 7 or 8. It would take you a lot longer to graduate but the workload would be much more manageable!
There was also a girl I met in one of the evening nude sessions that was studying in animation, she was quite physically disabled, like using those old people sitting/walking chair chair wheel things. I think she had a neurological or nervous system disability because she kinda dragged her legs along when she walked like she couldn't really control them that good. I talked to her for an hour after nudes and she said she was taking like 6 years to complete her 3 year program. She wanted to go to teaching college after and become an art teacher after. Its kind of hope fuel that if you really want something then you can get it.

>>7715462 (OP)
good blog anon, I enjoyed reading your experience as someone who started drawing around the same time

>>7716064
Sorry I don't think I was being clear, but yes she was a very mature artist. I can't honestly say that "she was great at autistic anatomy shit but her composition was pants". She was a better artist than anyone of us students in every dimension. Imagine Michelangelo's work and it's not in the same league (obv) but its in the same ballpark.
She was so masterful with charcoal and conte and that's what she was mostly teaching us because she was our figure teacher.
>>7716099
I'm sorry to hear that, but maybe the job is an opportunity to stack cash. Save everything in as high an interest savings account as you can (to combat inflation) and when you inevitably get laid off then just pack ur stuff and go to the frozen north!
I will warn you though, that in Canada tuition for international students is like 5 or more times more expensive than for domestics for the same program, make sure you are looking at international student prices when comparing (unless ur a Canadian citizen living in the US). And you are going to have to figure out housing which is a very difficult problem in most of Canada. Some schools might have dorms or something which will be way cheaper than renting even the smallest place relatively nearby, and they would be basically on or very near to the school campus so you would save urself the commute time (which really really adds up). I had to commute for ~1hr one way to campus and it was quite difficult for me but I knew kids who lived outside the city and had to catch a train to get out of the city to get home and their commute was like 2.5hrs 1 way. Crazy stuff.
In the meanwhile though, keep self studying. Everyone in my program who was cracked had been self studying since they were like 15 years old. That certainly helped them be more prepared and excel in the program.

>>7716623
Thank you! We all gonna make it anon!

>>7716177
I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry

High quality blog and positivity

didn't read
not joining your trannycord server
tiannanmen square massacre

>>7715462 (OP)
>I have done a stem undergrad and never worked so hard as this stupid art program in my life
lol
I did STEM undergrad and grad school and still one of the most intense classes I took was a ceramics class I just took on a whim (wanted to do piano but you had to be at least a music minor to get in that class). Spent like an extra 20+ hours a week in the workshop making ceramic shit. Was fun though, and recently sort of since it was incredibly tactile and was good to let my mind wander and digest all the rigorous science and math shit.

>>7716626
I have housing figured out already thankfully. I know jack about finance. Are high interest savings accounts better if you do it with your credit card company or it doesn't matter? If the latter what's the best one. I just drew again for the first time in a long time. My portfolio is actually quite hefty but my motivation to do anything when I wasn't able to get people (outside of occassional work) interested made me frustrated and demotivated.

>>7716626
>Imagine Michelangelo's work and it's not in the same league (obv) but its in the same ballpark.
I don't know which one of us is retarded, but I still think you don't understand
did she develop an original, appealing style ? could you, at a glance, recognize her work, and did you feel something when looking at it ? think of your favorite animated show, the illustration you like the most. I bet none of them is baroque michelangelo shit. there is no point in painting like someone who died in 1564, develop something on your own, no one is going to hire you to paint a chapel

OP can you give an example of the projects you were working on? Like was it about interpreting a specific subject, or drawing in a certain way? How much time for the project? I'm kinda curious how hard it would be to do one of these for fun

>>7716812
>le original
Nta but originally is a meme and using art for self-expression is how we got to the mess we got to begin with. Ghibli works because he figured out what artstyle works best for his story telling. Photo-realism indeed isn't guaranteed to get you a job but neither is any art related thing and if that's what he is good at he simply needs to work on projects in-which photo-realism is emphasized.

>>7716815
>originally is a meme
sure, to some extent. still, you can recognize your favorite show just by looking at it. "ghibli" became a respected and loved brand because no one is completely able to reproduce the atmosphere. works that are successful, both artistically and commercially, are usually rare and hence original at the moment they are produced.

>>7716808
God blessed me apparently that job is no longer an option. I'm back to being a NEET and will go to an art school.

>>7716734
Glad to hear that it was a positive experience for you! Yeah the realization that any art requires a huge time commitment. A super intelligent person who does 1h a week will get lap'd by a mid who does 20h.
>>7716808
Taking financial advice from an unemployed neet is maybe not the best thing lmao. There is probably a billion financial instruments on the market but when I was talking about a savings account I meant like with a bank. You can get a couple percent a year in some cases, which isn't "investing" returns, but if your savings will be sitting there for an unknown amount of time that could stretch to several years, then it will help combat devaluation due to inflation.
>I just drew again for the first time in a long time
Nice! I'm glad to hear it anon!
>my motivation to do anything when I wasn't able to get people interested made me frustrated and demotivated
I can definitely relate! Ultimately I did go to art school for deep personal reasons, but it felt like day-to-day 70% or more of my motivation to work so hard was first not to embarrass myself in front of my classmates and second was to get praise and adoration during our critique sessions.
I feel like now after art school that I have so much momentum built up that I don't stop working even though I haven't really been super social on our class discord or anything. I feel like my social battery has run completely empty and now I just want to crawl into a cave and just draw for myself for a while, without worrying about how much other people will like my stuff - or (God forbid) worrying about how many updoots I can get on 9gag.
>>7716867
If you've got the money to neet and go to art school then hooray!!! You are going to have the most memorable time of your life for sure!
I sometimes wonder if God making all of us unemployed neets is like him balancing the cosmic scales because a lot of people gave up on trying to be artist due to recent technological things xD

>>7716813
This is gonna be long so brace urself:
>give an example of the projects you were working on?
So it was 90% a "classical" art school education. We had I think 15ish classes in total? All the classes were on a specific topic and most of them had a first and second part; so for example we had figure 1 in first term, and figure 2 in second.
Our "main" mandatory classes were:
figure drawing - self explanatory, lots of nude models, 30 second to 1hr long poses, gesture, line of action, anatomy, balance, weight, composition, faces and some portraiture, all classes 98% done in charcoal and conte on newsprint. Later on we grinded skeletal anatomy hard as fuck, even took a school field trip to the local museum to draw dinosaur and other animal skelly all day - had a massive narrative illustration project based on this, which was really fun and silly.
painting - this was probably the hardest set of classes for me. We used watercolour like guaches and then switched to acrylic paints in the second term. The first term(s) were like 99% colour theory. We studied lots of different german sounding names ideas on colour theory and colour perception, one of our assignments was to create a painting using one of those fucked up memetic hazard colour perception fuckery things that I can't remember the name of right now where the same colour appears to be different colours based on what colours and shapes surround it. We also touched a bit on colour psychology and interpreting the emotional meaning of colours based on different cultures and even our own associations and opinions. Most of the paintings in this part were more like abstract or illustrative and less still life. Later on we went hard on still lives and various things like rendering glass and shiny metals etc. We never formally got to painting skin or people or anything, it was all objects.
Cont.

>>7717641
Drawing - this was easily the class most people struggled with the most. We grind perspective hard, and for many people in my class this is their first exposure to even 1 point perspective so a lot of people struggled. Most people who retook a class retook these ones. We basically start with 1 point and then go on to 2 point and then touch 3 point a little. We never learned fish eye or anything fancy, most people struggled enough with 2 point lmao. We drew a lot of buildings and environments, with a focus on keeping correct scale using various perspective techniques, we also drew a lot of "technical drawings" like orthographic projections of objects and vehicles and other stuff in that vein. We also studied composition and drapery and other less technical drawing stuff too. This was probably the most painful class for me to take because the assignments were painful and tedious, like using a ruler and drawing out all your perspective and construction lines for hours and hours on end tedious. I hated this because I kept smudging everything with my stupid hand. You aren't allowed to use digital in this class btw. Later on we looked at pen and ink techniques too.
Design - this was more of a soft focus class, like we did a bit of everything, and the class later branches out into your choice of more of a character design, concept art/visdev, comic book course, and a hands on 3D, product design, sculpting, modeling, sort of class. I took the character design one and that's where I did all my blender stuff since the other class was REALLY focused on product design, like making toasters and power tools type of stuff, not anything I really cared about, it was also very hands on and I wanted the freedom to work primarily digitally.
Cont.

>>7717651
Graphic Design - not much to say here either, we learned the standard adobe suite (PS, Illustrator, InDesign etc.) Most of these classes you could have learned easily from free tutorials on youtube, but I did learn a lot from my teacher who was actually working in publishing and printing for like 40 years lmao. If you are interested in graphic design or the technical part of publishing (like inks and bleeds and paper folding and stuff) then you would have loved this class lmao. The best thing I got out of this class was learning about dafont.com and pirating fonts!
And then we had some miscellaneous classes like art history, which would be a hit or miss depending on your attitude, it was very much a liberal arts type course, and we had to do some drawing and illustration and graphic design and even a sculpture/installation piece for our final, but it wasn't like a rigorous art course that would help you improve your skill or anything. Also pretty shallow and wide overview of art history, again think more on the level of a non-degree elective liberal arts course level of rigour.
Then we had a few other classes which were one offs like we had to take an English language course which was just a waste of time. Like doing readings and writing essays but it was whatever. We also had to take a non-art liberal arts elective, which also varied based on what you took. There were some fun classes like history of zombie movies but again - probably not what you are there for.
There was a couple of people in the program over the years who took a year off from being software engineers and even professional artists like graphic designers to do this program for fun, but most people there were about 19-25 years old and actually wanted to do art professionally at some point. I would say the avg age was 22-23 surprisingly.

>>7716813
>Like was it about interpreting a specific subject, or drawing in a certain way? How much time for the project? I'm kinda curious how hard it would be to do one of these for fun
I would say that you had quite a lot of creative freedom on most projects (especially the final projects), but many of the etude sort of weekly projects were fairly strict, like the assignment was to practice what we learned in class, so you had to do a still life, in ink that had at least 3 objects and drapery etc. Still in 99% of assignments you had all the choice in composition and framing, which in fact we where graded on as well, so it's not like we where just drawing from photographs that we were handed. No two student's projects looked the same. In terms of time, that was the worst. The minority of classes had only like 4 major projects that were each worth 25% and were due every quarter of the term, but the majority of classes, you would have a minor assignment due every week based on what we learned in class, and then a major assignment that took 2 weeks or more but if it did take more than 2 weeks then the parts were still due weekly, so like for example your research, thumbnails, and composition sketches were due in 1 week and they were graded, and you had to get approval from the teacher before you could start your painting which was due in 1 week after that.
I think that if have money, and can take a year off work and are already an artist of many years, then it can be a fun experience for sure! At least you will be exposed to many many different people and teachers and ideas that you aren't likely to encounter outside of the concentrated place like an art school. It's probably worth it just to be surrounded by such a high population of other artists, especially if you are from a small town or something!

>>7716812
>>7716815
>>7716817
I think originality is mostly a meme. imho style or expressiveness is really a mater of personality and taste. It's not really worth talking about in the context of art education, because being creative and having unique ideas is (next to) worthless if you don't have the technical skill to execute them to a commercially viable level. If you are learning to draw but your teacher is a bit of a square, then it doesn't really change whether he or she is a good teacher.
There are many great, creative, groundbreaking artists, who are fucking weird and socially inept and have personality disorders who would probably make terrible teachers of fundamentals. These people might be mentors to already int artists, and can be sources of creative inspiration, but you shouldn't expect them to be the best teachers of fundamentals.
Also I am 50-50 on whether good taste can even be taught. Some people are technically immaculate artists who spend all their time drawing strange fetish porn, and some people have a lot to say but don't have the practiced eloquence or skill with the language to be heard by a large audience; the best artist (I think) would strive for both.
Also the teacher in question draws figure to pic related level. I do believe that figure drawing can be an end in itself, so even if the teacher ONLY draws figures and anatomy (she doesn't btw) I would still consider her a very mature artist. Her stuff is full of soul and passion and it's technically immaculate, and that's enough for me lmao.

>>7717667
>I think originality is mostly a meme. imho style or expressiveness is really a mater of personality and taste. It's not really worth talking about in the context of art education, because being creative and having unique ideas is (next to) worthless if you don't have the technical skill to execute them to a commercially viable level.
At this learning block to I'm trying to break out of by actually honing my skill. My ideas would be truly amazing and I believe helpful to the world at a level of the soul but I lack the talent to be a good vassal on it from the drawing side. Or am at least so mediocre that it has yet to be at a level I'm comfortable drawing at.
>Some people are technically immaculate artists who spend all their time drawing strange fetish porn
Got into some messed up fetishes myself this way. It's fascinating seeing people with such good sense of depth and creative depth use their talents for some of the ugliest fetishes imaginable.

>>7717632
>If you've got the money to neet and go to art school then hooray!!!
Just realized it's $30k a year and that I don't.

I'm too retarded to figure this out how much would I be looking at if I spent a year here. https://www.sheridancollege.ca/admissions/fees-and-finances/academic-fees/tuition

Says 8.5k a term which is already on the steep end but there are extra costs and from what I was told even internationally Canadian schools are still cheaper so I think I'm sol.

>>7717816
>My ideas would be truly amazing and I believe helpful to the world at a level of the soul but I lack the talent to be a good vassal on it from the drawing side. Or am at least so mediocre that it has yet to be at a level I'm comfortable drawing at.
These things take time. One book I've read this past year (or rather listened to the audiobook on the way to and from school) is Steven Pressfield's The War of Art.
I highly recommend it as it changed my whole outlook on my job as an artist.
It helped me realize that you are not where the art comes from, it comes from the muses. It is your job to hone your craft, to be honest and consistent in your labour. The muses will come, when and if they so choose.
In some ways this is quite liberating for me, since I no longer worry whether my day to day practice is good, or whether I have produced good work this session etc. The only thing you have to worry about is showing up every day and letting the heavens take care of everything else.
Also, Eros can be a powerful and dangerous force. Repressing yourself can lead to all types of strangeness, but on the other hand, overindulgence can lead to madness! I find motivation in some erotic work, but I try to keep my personal art as wholesome as I can.

>>7717850
My internet crashed so I have to rewrite again xD

Basically, most programs expect you to take 2 full time load terms per year. That's 17k for tuition.
Then housing you should expect about 1k/month, even in a dorm, so about 12k for housing.
That is already basically 30k.

Then consider miscellaneous expenses such as transport, food, art supplies, and having a bit of emergency cash (plus a few dollars a year for the odd eating out or going on a date if you get lucky xD), I would say that 35-40k/year is what you should expect.

Only hope fuel is that (I'm almost sure that) int tuition covers healthcare, and 30k-40k CAD is 21.5k-28.9k USD. I think it's still probably cheaper than a fancy US art school?

>>7717824
I'm sorry to hear that. You should look into local colleges and community colleges. Even some no-name colleges have like an 80 year old professor who teaches figure drawing a few nights a week. Also many cities have a group of artists who get together and chip in to hire a model to do figure drawing from an evening a week. You should ask around, you might have some amazing opportunities available to you! I would have loved to go to the Art Student's League in New York, which is an atelier, but I don't have the money to live in New York even if I could get the education for free.

>>7715462 (OP)
This has been obvious to me since the beginning, because I’m not a retard. The issue for me has always been that when I’m clocking in good time on art my eyesight begins to get fucked in the process. So I take time off. Regain my sight and lose my art.

The back issues are at least remedied with exercise. Maybe I need to find eye exercises, but shit. I only have so much energy before I want to chill for a bit.

>>7718738
>>7718741
I did forget to factor that Canadian money is less than US. Seeing the cheap prices for non-international definitely makes me wish I was a Canadian citizen but it is what it is.

You said you also went to a traditional university into computer science? Transferring your credits how long did it take you to complete art school? I can afford a year semester but basically nothing else as everything else would require me to have a job to escape debt and this talent isn't worth clawing myself out of debt for when I have other options. It took me an extra 3 years to graduate so I could escape debt previously.
>>7718727
>Eros can be a powerful and dangerous force. Repressing yourself can lead to all types of strangeness, but on the other hand, overindulgence can lead to madness!
Modernity has bastardized eros from it's original meaning. It used to mean appreciation of the physical body yes, but it also meant longing and physical closeness and eros was always meant to be a gateway into other forms of love. Now it has been reduced to "thing that makes you horny" even if that physical attraction barely resembles a functional human woman.
>In some ways this is quite liberating for me, since I no longer worry whether my day to day practice is good, or whether I have produced good work this session etc. The only thing you have to worry about is showing up every day and letting the heavens take care of everything else.
I need to do this. Definitely appreciate it. I'll check out the audiobook as well.

>>7718820
>This has been obvious to me since the beginning, because I’m not a retard.
Guilty as charged. I never claimed to be smart :*(
>The issue for me has always been that when I’m clocking in good time on art my eyesight begins to get fucked in the process. So I take time off. Regain my sight and lose my art.
Okay joking aside, this isn't normal at all. I've spent 10 hours a day on the computer working on blender for months, and like a year doing nothing but sitting inside drawing. I have terrible vision, I need a strong prescription lens in my glasses just to see the model during figure drawing, and yet I have never experienced anything close to what you say.
My bachelors was something very specific that I don't want to say but it was biology related. Unless you are 95 years old, this is not normal. You say "eyesight fucked up" and not headaches or migraines. If you are "regaining your sight" for long enough to lose your art, I read that as it takes a day or multiple days for your vision issues to clear. You need to see a doctor.
4chan medical advice from neets is the best, but off the top of my head, vitamin deficiency (like particularly vit A but could be B groups or a million others), uncontrolled diabetus, and obviously physical issues with the eye.
>I only have so much energy before I want to chill for a bit.
That's fine. Just do as much as you can today, and try to keep consistency, you will naturally gain more stamina as you keep it up!

>>7718848
My degree is not in compsci. It's in something very specific related to life sciences. My field was literally tiny tiny tiny (especially in Canada). I realistically would have needed to do a PhD to have any real career prospects but my illness which led to my neet disability lifestyle basically closed that door for me.
I didn't have to transfer any credits because I only did a 1 year art fundamentals program. It wasn't a 4 year art bachelors or anything. I think I could have transferred some credits to waive the mandatory English credit and elective, but I didn't bother. This will probably be my last college experience in my whole life so I wanted to get the most out of it xD
>Eros
I think I used it correctly enough to get the point across xD
>I need to do this. Definitely appreciate it. I'll check out the audiobook as well.
I highly recommend. The audiobook version I have is read by the original author himself! I don't want to spoil the mystery of the book but if nothing else, he is a fun author to read. Very witty and well read and doesn't take himself too seriously. Any layman can enjoy this book!

>>7719001
>I didn't have to transfer any credits because I only did a 1 year art fundamentals program.
Oh alright. So basically anything after a year isn't something you'd recommend? Would the type of art school even matter at that point since you aren't in it for the degree? I could probably just do it for the summer at that point but I'm still kind of a person with dead job prospects atm so a high end art school actually giving me a job that pays at least $17 an hour was something I was considering.
>I think I used it correctly enough to get the point across xD
You did but I don't think what these people have is even eros but just low impulsiveness and easiness to propaganda. Unfortunately I wish there was a magic beam that could cure fetishes but the ugliness still seeps into my mind while looking at something pretty like nature.

>>7715462 (OP)
going to art school seems kind of kino, do you think talented students end up becoming friends for like and make some sick product in the real world, or is the industry all AI slop now nd they are all doomed, i know an artist animation girl who just went to be a reception desk at a hospital, she did work a visdev job (drawing background props) for a small animation studio so it seems like she got cucked :/ ive been self learning drawing and i thought it was impossible but i grinded really hard for like 2-3 months and realized i can actually learn, so theres hopefuel but i also have tendonitis due to doom scrolling so i havent drawn in ages :/ so thats suicide fuel, im sorry to hear about ur situation and im glad you shared your experience with artschool

Reminder that art schools are a scam. I got a STEM bachelors degree and make 6 figures and still draw better than many people who went to art school just by drawing on my spare time.

>>7715702
>colour theory exercises
What sort of exercises were those, if you don't mind sharing?

>>7719592
>So basically anything after a year isn't something you'd recommend?
I would refer you to >>7720019 's excellent post.
I knew going into it that the piece of paper is less than worthless. My 1 year art fundamentals program isn't even a degree, its a certificate program xD
The reason I think it was so worth it for me is because my tuition came out to about 3k (Canadian) for an entire year, and the school was an hour away by bus from where I live. That plus the fact that the program was supposed to be for beginners and that it was only a single year long, was also a big factor for me; I didn't want to commit to a 4 year program and then find out that I hate it half way through. I am very satisfied with the taste of art school exp I got there, and realized that I don't NEED art school to become a good artist.
>a high end art school actually giving me a job that pays at least $17 an hour was something I was considering.
This really really really depends on how much the art school will cost you. If you can go for free due to scholarships or have super rich parents then there are worse ways to spend ur time xD
If you are broke, then art school will only help make u more broke. Like worst case scenario you pay 100k to go from making 12/h to 17/h, the math just doesn't add up 'cause you will be paying huge interest on ur loans. It's not worth it.
Factor in that the only job I can think of that will require you to have an art degree might would be to become a public school art teacher, but there you will probably have to go to teachers college afterwards to get your teaching credentials. If you become a private art teacher for kids tho, no one gives a shit abt ur degree. Also public school teaching is one of the most hellish jobs you can imagine and the pay is shit. One of my teachers this year told us about his friend who became a PS art teacher and he literally got stabbed with a knife by one of his students xD

>>7719592
>but the ugliness still seeps into my mind while looking at something pretty like nature
Don't worry anon, I also get aroused when seeing the beauty of nature. God truly did wonders with his creations!

>>7719935
>do you think talented students end up becoming friends for like and make some sick product in the real world, or is the industry all AI slop now nd they are all doomed
I'm still keeping in touch with all my dank art school friends. I want to skill up as hard as I can and then I'm thinking of starting an indie game studio with a couple of my mates.
I don't really spend any time thinking about AI slop desu.
>know an artist animation girl who just went to be a reception desk at a hospital
Sux but realistically nobody said that going to art school was a guarantee of getting a job. A lot of my teachers who have connections and worked in animation b4 were telling us that the last few years especially were a bloodbath for the industry. Really hard to find work at this moment. Another reason that having huge debt and high interest loans are so dangerous.
>ive been self learning drawing and i thought it was impossible but i grinded really hard for like 2-3 months and realized i can actually learn
That's awesome to hear anon! You can do it!
>tendonitis due to doom scrolling
How is that even possible. You need to go see a doctor lmao. Worst case scenario learn to be ambidextrous. There are painters without arms who paint with their feet so definitely don't let anything stop you!
>im sorry to hear about ur situation and im glad you shared your experience with artschool
Thank you! I feel like talking about my experience here has also helped me work through some difficult feelings. I hope my ramblings were helpful or at least entertaining to read xD

>>7720232
Well basically almost everything you can think of. I don't want to make a super long post again so I'll try to sum up. In essence the biggest key to everything we did was understanding the 3 components of all colours; Hue, Saturation, and Value.
Just from googling I found this extraordinary website that basically goes over all that we looked at in class:
https://www.huevaluechroma.com/011.php

Every assignment in the colour theory portion of my classes was about torturing some specific dimension of these 3. For example we worked only with fully saturated hues for a while, then grayscale, then put it together, we looked at atmospheric perspective, and saturation ratios, compositional ideas relating to colour etc.
We looked at different theories of colour mixing like additive and subtractive. We learned about primary, secondary, and tertiaries and how different colour spaces use different primaries; for example RGB on a cumputer screen uses Red Green and Blue, Whereas printers generally use CMYK, Cyan Magenta Yellow and blacK. But there are infinite possible colour spaces! Any 3 (or more) different colours can define a colour space, so here we learned about different limited pallets like the zorn pallet and many classical ones that I don't remember the names of right now.
We grinded a new assignment every single week in the colour theory portion, it was only when we got to doing more classical still live type studies that they let up a little and actually gave us 2 weeks for an assignment.
In general the painting classes for me were the most difficult because mixing paints is extremely time consuming, plus setup and cleanup xD
Made me really appreciate the magic of digital painting! And also realize that you really really have to love the moment to moment minutia of painting to do this as a profession. Personally I'm glad I had the experience, but boy did I realize that I am not a painter at heart lmao.

>>7720304
>I didn't want to commit to a 4 year program and then find out that I hate it half way through.
Yeah who would that hehe haha

>>7720019
Thank you for spreading that image I made, here's much of the rest of the rotation. I may have lost one or two statements over the years but I think every young artist needs to see these before they make a terrible mistake.

>>7720019
Also, I've gotta say I think that if you are quite proficient you're possibly an exceptional case; I would not necessarily recommend an artistically inclined person to seek a non-art degree or career right away out of highschool. Art at the highest levels requires a degree of commitment that would-for many people-be precluded by as considerable a disruption as that.

The dream of wealthy, accommodating parents is unattainable for most, but getting by with a part time job is absolutely doable. Start with a low-stress, 20 hour a week job to cover your expenses for materials and things like one-off classes, online coursework or tutoring and move on from there.

I think my biggest mistake personally was working a lot throughout my younger years and now I've been cornered by an ever-growing list of obligations due to the failing health of my immediate family and similar things. Nothing is ever "over" within reason, but you have to realize your best years and opportunities are absolutely on a time limit, so give yourself a chance and some breathing room into your early adulthood.

I see a lot of retarded replies here in this thread and I hope that some of you have the sense to read my post and not fall prey to a politicized black and white analysis of art education as a whole.

art education all comes down to:
-your budget
-your goals
-your time

if you have the money, time, and want to specifically be a concept artist, perhaps shilling out the money to go to FZD really is the correct choice for you. if you want to be an animator, it may be a good idea to attend a school at a hub where animation studios are located, not necessarily to learn how to draw, but to network and find a way to get the people running those studios to know your name. the truth is that the FUNDAMENTALS can be learned completely independently from formal education. what school can POSSIBLY provide is a chance to NETWORK and also be a part of a possibly helpful and inspiring COMMUNITY. no, a discord server will never, ever, be a real replacement for an IRL group that you can actually go out and sketch with or even do long plein air sessions as you camp out.

schools also post the work of their past grads, who you can reach out to to ask about their experiences at the school. they also will typically offer one off courses such as figure drawing 1 or some shit, so you can try out the school without shilling out money for a full degree.

also this is just a personal opinion, but anyone can learn to draw. you can't make art unless you get inspiration, and that is a whole 'nother subject in itself. it's important to place yourself in a creative hub and it's very difficult to do so from the outside. when i say art, i mean drawing the ideas that excite you and bringing them to life. it's important to find your voice.

also i wanted to say the OP was a retard. just skimmed the posts as I didn't feel most of this thread was worth reading. figure is just something to be studied to use as a tool in your illustrations or whatever else you do unless you decide to just become a figure artist hardcore. it's fine if you decide on doing so, but otherwise it's silly to fixate on such a small aspect of drawing. the main purpose of learning all the things we do is so that we can create images easily, quickly, and without too much stumbling. whether it's a detailed figure with intricate lighting or a funny little doodle you draw on the inside of a notebook, drawing shouldn't be some monumental task. you should draw with the same sort of energy and lightness as if you were doodling, even if the subject is complicated.

>>7716032
you are a mouthbreathing retard. just draw a quick doodle you faggot.

>>7717850
sheridan is a fucking meme you braindead ape. it is insanely overpriced and profs are hit/miss. the last I interacted with a canadian animation industry event, recent animation grads who could animate in 2D were lining up to apply for jobs at studios who were only looking for riggers. is that what you want? you want to be a fucking rigger? take a look at the animation industry yearly event here if you're interested: https://taafi.com/

sheridan is alway on the lookout for younger, almost fully developed artists to scoop up in a scholarship program to boost their own alumni grad works. a lot of these students use the school simply to get to where they want to go, often not finishing their degrees.

>>7720414
>schools also post the work of their past grads
Pic related?

(yeah I'm being cheeky but cherry-picking the top 5% of students of other schools and ignoring the masses beneath them isn't much better, is it?)

The question is what proportion of these past grads "make it" by even their own standard let alone find conventional success through a career in art? The answer-statistically-is "not many", whereas every last one of them may have spent as much as $100,000 to attend for two short years.

This is enough money to:

-attend an Atelier full-time for a decade or more
-travel across a good portion of the civilized world and visit every major art museum therein multiple times
-attend every art and comic convention in the US several times over
-put a hell of a down payment on a house (would have been enough to buy one outright at one point-tuition rates have been that bad for that long)
-start a business
-and more!

The point I'm making is not only are there alternatives right now to the formal art schools that have deliberately abused the trust and financial futures of their students, but that we need and deserve better options than those as well; one of my major life's goals is to see to it that we get one before too long. I have...a plan.

>one off courses such as figure drawing 1 or some shit, so you can try out the school without shilling out money for a full degree.

I wholeheartedly agree that one should take advantage of this if offered, as I'd said in a similar thread: >>7716545

>anyone can learn to draw. you can't make art unless you get inspiration
I agree with this, actually. It's a bit pedantic but I don't refer to myself as an artist for this reason. I'm looking forward to the day where I can say that I am without hesitation. Visual literacy is important, but not enough. That doesn't mean we let literal vampires rob us for the dubious privilege of letting us interact with eachother in person though.

>>7720304
tl;dr solution is to live in Canada? I can afford a year basically and nothing else. If it's more than a year I won't do it.
>Like worst case scenario you pay 100k to go from making 12/h to 17/h,
Worst-case scenario still giving me a job doesn't seem terrible. I'm assuming it doesn't guarantee that though.
>>7720019
I got a STEM bachelors degree in a top tier university and ended up jobless because of mass competition and hype of AI so I wouldn't shill for universities either. Anyways what about the person who has plateaued in his art and has 0 friends, family or even the ability to isolate himself so he can focus on it? People say you can always self-study but forget that this isn't how human beings have learned for centuries.

>>7715464
The cool thing about you doing both is now you can combine the two skills to up your game in drawing. composition building in 3D, everything else drawn!

>>7720453
>I'm assuming it doesn't guarantee that though
Few guarantees in art and few among them are "good", unfortunately he's just speaking in hypotheticals.

>I can afford a year basically

$3,000 a year is not bad at all-and $3000 CAD is closer to $2,000 USD. While I am extremely cynical about art school anything under $10,000 a year for top quality education is reasonable. Get a part time job dude.

>>7721122
>ew guarantees in art and few among them are "good", unfortunately he's just speaking in hypotheticals.
Unfortunate. I am not even particular onto what typical field as long as it gets me drawing experience to eventually be able to be independent.
>Get a part time job dude.
I got a job for the summer but it's ending soon. I am too overqualified for traditional part time jobs like retail and I don't envy people stuck in those jobs. I either start job searching or use this rare opportunity to maybe get an education which is why I'm looking into this ASAP.

>>7720452
People are so weird about "fine art" that somehow it doesn't surprise me that art school has been eroded away into an adult daycare for rich kids. I have to admit that I have a kind of appreciation for that sort of art, but a person doesn't need to and shouldn't go through and expensive art program for it: simply buy some shit at the hardware store and get it done.

I also studied a STEM field, but that was a long time ago. I've been working in that field for over a decade, made my share, but the past few years have really made me despise everything about it, so here I am trying to learn a children's hobby and struggling badly with it...

I miss when I was in school, when I still felt hope for the future, when it was OK to not have everything figured out.

>>7721215
I hate the concept of adult daycare. Life exists so you can get experiences and experiences are what allow you to craft better art which is why the best artists had at least expertise in one other job. Still I respect that all these greats had proper apprenticeships and the college system is anything remotely like that I want to do it just to improve my art the way my human brain is adept to.

>>7721222
>the college system is anything remotely like that
I have no clue about what art programs are like, and I've been far enough removed from STEM education that I am not sure it is still the same, but my experience was that what students got out of it was proportional to what they put in. If it's still anything like that, it will be on you to make sure you are getting the education your degree represents, and not only a piece of paper with your name on it. Where the school helped me a lot was to give structure to learning and to be in an environment where I was surrounded by like minded peers with actually experienced instructors who wanted to teach. Ultimately students who didn't want to be there benefited little from it.

>Omg dudes you just need a family who supports you into your 30s while you attend art school and get mentored!!?!?!?
>I Improved SO SO MUCH!!!11!!
>Almost a hundred replies
>Not a single fucking drawing to show for it
Lmaooooooooooooooooo

>>7721235
>and I've been far enough removed from STEM education that I am not sure it is still the same
Same. I'm jealous of all these AI people being able to cheat their way through the first 3 years of college lol.
>school helped me a lot was to give structure to learning and to be in an environment where I was surrounded by like minded peers with actually experienced instructors who wanted to teach.
What I'm looking for as well. Humans are social creatures and I am stagnating hard by being in a place where I am both alone in interests and constantly filled with noise unrelated to the craft.

>>7721245
Who are you quoting?

>>7721249
OP and everyone else replying.

>>7721253
No one in the thread said or implied anything as such in the thread though? Did you actually read the thread?

>>7721245
While I indirectly posted art here >>7720452 in the reply, here's a vegetable-heavy burger from a couple months ago based on a friend's photograph. Despite how long I've been drawing I'm pretty new to painting in general but I'm trying to work on it.

>you just need someone to support you into your 30s

I didn't say that necessarily but I do think that jumping into college (not just art college but college of any sort) right outside of highschool is a dire mistake for a variety of reasons, and a full time job should be delayed as long as possible if art is your goal.

>>7721247
I presume you're joking but in either case I'm not jealous of anything these cyber psycho nAIggers that want AI to perform every basic intellectual task on their behalf get up to. They're truly only cheating themselves at the end of the day and they will ultimately be exposed

>>7721247
Why even go to college for a hard subject like STEM if you are just going to promptjeet your way out of it?
This is something that I see with the newest generations and some of my coworkers (I am an all-rounder codemonkey for a manufacturing,
/logistics/sales small company. So there is tons of shit to do).
People are offloading their thinking, learning and grinding to AI to the point that they forget the most basic things and fundamental stuff like syntax or cookie cutter shit basic algorithms or SQL wizardry.
I saw it also in my class when I graduated almost 10 years ago that people who neglected their fundamentals with cheating didnt have intuition or experience with shit and couldnt explain why their software worked or what it did or how to recreate it.

>>7721760
I don't know either and I don't know what they expected. People think that their brains are their enemy instead of their friend and want to do as little thinking as possible. I personally only did well at the labs and was horrible at any exams which is why I did terrible at the first few years but aced the latter two. Colleges need to focus on physical experiments again if they want to actually want grades to mean something.

I'll also only go to art school if my credits can get rid of all the gen eds and stuff that isn't related to drawing. I don't want to deal with a bunch of AI sludge and students who don't give a shit or believe what they're doing isn't for the betterment of humanity.

>>7721760
>>7721776
Because people don't go into those fields for passion but because for years they've been told that's where the world is going and that's the best way to make money after college so anything that automates the money making process for something they don't necessarily like is a win for them

>>7721760
It's actually incredibly grim how much of the younger generation is going to be rendered functionally retarded by AI overuse

>>7721843
Brainrot is real. I'm suffering from it by being constantly online too. Ironically as much as I'm shitting on college kids it's why I want to go to college to force me out of this loop.

>>7722813
Definitely go to college. People who didn't like to parrot successful people (usually someone from a rich background) saying you don't need it.

Going to college can get you
>Connections from rich kids
>Adventures with friends
>the academic way of critical thinking (just incase you want to be a youtube Video Essay-ist)
>Evidence of the work ethic to stick with something for 4+ years
>If you're poor a different perspective of what's actually possible

Mainly it is about the people you meet there, if anything when you guys go to live separate lives it gives you an excuse to travel and see them if you know how to properly maintain relationships. IDK if it's worth a decade of debt, but we live in a world where Debt is king so who cares? Get your wages garnished for a while, or set up a payment plan via the samhyde method

>>7722865
I'll have to look up the Sam Hyde method. I went to a traditional college already and it was fun but mostly a time waster. Lost more jobs from being overqualified than I have gotten any. I meant an art school for learning, but I agree connections are important. Any ones with particular good results?

>>7722865
>who cares?
>"everyone else makes disastrous decisions, why shouldn't I?"

Post your work if you're going to tell people to go into mortgage levels of debt and make minimum payments for the next 20 years. Here's a figure, get to it and show us all what you learned that makes a decade of debt servitude worth two years when so many fine alternatives have been expressed up-thread, including free or inexpensive resources online and in-person

https://www.youtube.com/@thedrawingdatabase8743/playlists

>>7722944
I was talking about normal college. I thought the meme of art college was so prevalent that it would be out of the question by now. There's a movement where a bunch of influencers tell people not to go to college as well (and these inflencers usually start well off) , but if you're lower middle class or below college would be beneficial to your life. It doesn't make sense for upper middle class and above usually because they can meet those people before college and they've probably adopted healthy habits from their parents who if push comes to shove could probably get you a bullshit job that pays well somewhere.

Also that last part was joke which is why I prefaced it with:
> IDK if it's worth a decade of debt
I thought mentioning allowing the government to take even more money than your minuscule check and mentioning Sam Hyde would've tipped it off.
>>7722912
>I'll have to look up the Sam Hyde method
Please don't do that, It's basically making up a sob story and paying like $6/month on a debt it's not a solution
>I went to a traditional college already and it was fun but mostly a time waster.
Yeah the only reason is to build connections and you have to go in there knowing that, a lot of people think it means that it's an automatic ticket to a job, but it isn't if you're gonna shit around and party all day. Looking for Internships and taking advantages of Carrier fairs is the way to go but hindsight is 20/20
>Lost more jobs from being overqualified than I have gotten any
That's a blessing in disguise, honestly it's really easy to get a shit retail job and work your way up until you can afford a little apartment on your own not thinking about the future. The degree eliminates this path of least resistance and sets you up better (relatively) for the different stages in your life. I know it's hard and it sucks so much, but we all have to eat shit in life to some degree.

>>7723035
>That's a blessing in disguise, honestly it's really easy to get a shit retail job and work your way up until you can afford a little apartment on your own not thinking about the future
No it isn't. 90% of these retail jobs are managed by women who have 0 self-awareness and will fire you the instant you take things casually. You don't give 0 shits about their gossiping so you can't get along well with them either. I haven't been able to get a job outside of ones that are small and don't pay well or physical labor jobs that also don't pay well but are much less mentally stressful but only last the summer. There is no upward mobility for me which is why I'm saying fuck it and trying something I've just wanted to excel at in the first place.

>>7723040
Reading comprehension. Read the next part. Also what are you saying to get fired? It's really hard to get fired immediately there's usually a work up to it. You're in a work setting if they don't make the first move don't do anything about it.
>You don't give 0 shits about their gossiping so you can't get along well with them either.
This doesn't change no matter where you work, there's always gossiping it's apart of human nature, it's how people bond. You will always have to work with people you don't like in some period of time, and that's where professionalism kicks in.
> I haven't been able to get a job outside of ones that are small and don't pay well or physical labor jobs that also don't pay well but are much less mentally stressful but only last the summer. There is no upward mobility for me which is why I'm saying fuck it and trying something I've just wanted to excel at in the first place.
Yeah, it's pretty bleak out there which is why I said
>I know it's hard and it sucks so much
I've been there unemployed filling out 7 applications a day with that constant anxiety you wake up with, rejection letters flooding your inbox making you feel you're not enough, then learning that jobs are looking to force people into the gig economy becoming independent contractors so they don't have to give benefits on top of all of that. Ghost job posts, wasting your time at interviews for things you don't care about. It really does suck, it's getting to the point it's like trying to market your art. I don't blame you, and wish the best of luck to you this world is insane now.

>>7723040
>90% of these retail jobs are managed by women who have 0 self-awareness and will fire you the instant you take things casually.
That's most jobs anywhere now. Women dominate higher management. Probably because most of them don't apply for grunt work so they end up in jobs flood jobs that naturally push you up into those positions like HR or secretary our accounting and stuff like that. Go into any office for something and you'll mostly be bouncing around from woman to woman to get something done. At least that's how it is in my country

>>7723071
>Also what are you saying to get fired? It's really hard to get fired immediately there's usually a work up to it. You're in a work setting if they don't make the first move don't do anything about it.
I don't do shit except for work. When I don't get work I don't ask and when other people aren't working I join in. I refuse to gossip behind other people's back so I stay clear from socialization too. I walk around a lot and will do menial tasks because I get bored as shit and my general in-ability to understand bullshit methods to suck the clit of your boss gets me in trouble. If I can't afford rent from your job I don't care enough to humiliate myself.
>I've been there unemployed filling out 7 applications a day with that constant anxiety you wake up with.
I get more anxiety when I get an interview at this point. There's no benefits to not being jobless because once you live with your parents aka have a house there isn't anything worth buying because everything entertainment now is purposefully dogshit. A summer job is enough to pay for your parents going on travels or whatever they do for fun which means free time to fuck off. There's the option that I spend some more to learn stuff like how to make generative AI but tech jobs are saturated, prone to the bullshit, and yeah I'd afford rent but at the cost of being a waste of flesh actively making the world shittier which I don't want to be responsible for.

>>7723035
Really? I damn, I was looking forward to seeing you post.

>normal college

That's a good way to lose all of your time for art, then. This is the false dichotomy we're often given that if we don't go to college for art we HAVE to go to college for something else and I say-perhaps, but not until you give yourself some years to make a serious go at it if you actually care. Most colleges apart from art or trade schools are considerably more affordable

>>7716177
Im reading all of it albeit though

I recently went for a year long cram course too, it's for 3D stuff but the idea's the same, giving you constant work so you make it a habit. I learnt a lot from the course and my portfolio looks alright for a year's worth of work, but after I graduated I started slacking off and went back to playing games and doomscrolling 4chan so I guess I'm not that into art? I'm jelly of people who can keep working even when there's no teachers or deadlines looming over them.
I dunno what the point of this post is, I read your blog and wanted to blog too. I don't have a degree and I feel like I should have one if I want to apply for normal non-art jobs, but I don't even know what I want to do or study for another 3-4 years. The course just made me realize that I'm not talented or good at art, and you're gonna be competing for jobs with these talented 20 year olds and laidoff 40 year olds with 10 years experience.

>>7723469
>I guess I'm not that into art? I'm jelly of people who can keep working even when there's no teachers or deadlines looming over them.

There's plenty of people like you. They usually have to put themselves in uncomfortable situations to get things done.

Hey everyone! It's OP back again. Sorry I was working on art stuff for a few days, trying to get back into the rhythm.

>>7720342
D:
(Sorry system thinks my post is spam xD)
>7720348
>7720349
>7720350
>7720352
>7720353
>7720019
If you are the creator of these images, then I want to wholeheartedly thank you! I saw these before and they certainly influenced me to go to my short and cheap art program. I'm glad that I went for the experience, but I wouldn't say that any art school is worth 100k. I literally had a teacher tell me that her bachelors of fine art and masters were the worst mistakes shes ever made xD She flat out said that if I want to take more classes after this that I should just pay for the individual classes that I am interested in instead of "wasting 4 years for a degree" xD


>>7720342

>>7720386
>give yourself a chance and some breathing room into your early adulthood.
The one gift you have as a young person is that everyone has very low expectations of you. That and time. Nowadays even the most expensive computer + drawing tablet costs less than a used car, the internet is free education, printer paper and dollar store pens cost a pittance. If you want to get good then there has never been a lower barrier to entry than now!
>>7720414
I think your post is certainly true, but we have lots of examples of very young people like the author of Gachiakuta was posting her work on twitter since she was like 15 or something. She studied the artists she loved and grinded hard and she is an absolute bad ass at the age of like fucking 20.
She was way too young to benefit from any social type stuff or "life experience".
I think people can fall into the trap of thinking that socializing and being in an "art hub" will replace grinding. Then they go into debt to move to NY or LA and end up waiting tables cause their work wasn't that good.

>>7720437
>also i wanted to say the OP was a retard.
Shaking and crying irl rn fr fr.
>drawing shouldn't be some monumental task. you should draw with the same sort of energy and lightness as if you were doodling, even if the subject is complicated.
The hardest part about being a beginner is when everything is so hard and overwhelming.
You have to endure that beginning stage of discomfort and pain, and then you are more free to explore and play once you have enough vocabulary to do so.
>you are a mouthbreathing retard. just draw a quick doodle you f*.
I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry
Please accept this froge as my penance
>sheridan is a fucking meme you braindead ape. it is insanely overpriced and profs are hit/miss.
>sheridan is alway on the lookout for younger, almost fully developed artists to scoop up in a scholarship program to boost their own alumni grad works. a lot of these students use the school simply to get to where they want to go, often not finishing their degrees.
I talked to quite a lot of people from anim who went to my school because they couldn't get into Sheridan after like 3 or 4 years of applying. The competition to get in seems insane. One girl said that she kept improving for 3 years but every year her point score in their portfolio/test thing kept dropping so she gave up lmao. Idk but it kinda seems like a scam if you already have to be an industry pro just to get in. Even more fuel to the "art school is for networking not learning" argument.
>take a look at the animation industry yearly event here if you're interested: https://taafi.com/
My teacher mentioned this and a couple of other events in class! Would be cool to have your work accepted by an event, it would probably lead to a lot of networking xD

>>7720452
I've been to the graduate shows of OCAD for a few years in a row now. Animation is a team sport, and there is time crunch so I can't comment. The illustrations are what I am most interested in as that is a more fair measure of individual skill.
Every year so far has been aprox. the following:
bottom 10-20% of illustrations, naive style or obviously low skill.
Next 70-80%; frankly of middling skill. Like not that impressive for 4 years of intense practice. I suspect this is largely because 1/3rd of the time is spent doing liberal arts or irrelevant stuff like learning yarn or some shit.
And then the top 5-10% is actually good. Like some of the illustrations look good enough to be Blizzard or Riot games level, but given the huge gap in technical ability from top of the class to bottom, I really really really can't bring myself to believe that they didn't learn these skills on their own. It seems to me the success of these students is at least as much due to their own studies as it is to the school. If you live very modestly (especially if you are young and can live with your parents) then 100k can buy you a decade of self study.

>>7720453
>>7721122
>tl;dr solution is to live in Canada?
No, because it really depends if you are a Canadian citizen or not. International students pay 5x or more the tuition of domestics! It's actually brutal. No program will guarantee you anything nowadays, but certainly a 1 year certificate program in art (from Canada as well lmao) probably won't make you go from 12 to 17/h.
And yes, I was speaking hypothetically as in if you got a 4 year degree. Some places like offices require you to have a 4 year bachelors and they don't care in what, so purely in that sense having a degree can be a slight boon, but in today's economy even that is wild speculation.
>I got a STEM bachelors degree in a top tier university and ended up jobless because of mass competition and hype of AI so I wouldn't shill for universities either
I'm sorry to hear that. Even if the tech wasn't a thing, an infinity amount of immigrants from other countries competing for jobs and driving wages down is also a pain. It seems like we were made to be poor in this generation.
>Anyways what about the person who has plateaued in his art and has 0 friends, family or even the ability to isolate himself so he can focus on it? People say you can always self-study but forget that this isn't how human beings have learned for centuries.
I think finding friends that can keep you motivated and honest can be great! I also think it depends on your personality though, I'm an introvert, and although I liked having friends that I saw every day and teachers that I had relationships with, it was also extremely stressful. Now that school is over I just realized how happy I am to not have to socialize every day xD
>$3,000 a year is not bad at all-and $3000 CAD is closer to $2,000 USD. While I am extremely cynical about art school anything under $10,000 a year for top quality education is reasonable.
Yeah plus I got a super generous government loan with a basically free money interest rate. I am not an int student tho!

>>7721215
>I have to admit that I have a kind of appreciation for that sort of art, but a person doesn't need to and shouldn't go through and expensive art program for it: simply buy some shit at the hardware store and get it done.
My personal suspicion is that Randy Rando the working class bloke will have no chance to break into the "I glue garbage onto walls" sector of fine art. I think it's mostly a social club for the obscenely wealthy elite and their children and/or sob stories from oppressed and marginalized identities, where the artists "about me" page is more important than whatever sculpture they have on display.
>so here I am trying to learn a children's hobby and struggling badly with it...
Yeah, as much as I try to be positive, it does sometimes hurt when a 15 year old Japanese girl on twitter draws better than I ever will.
On the other hand, one of the darker positives I got from my year in art school was seeing just how many people dropped out or were worse than me. I would say I was maybe in the 50th percentile on avg (never the very best, but never the very worst either). Seeing amazing artists who go viral on the internet all the time had given me a genuinely unrealistic group to compare my own art and art progress to. You also don't see how many hundreds or thousands of hours someone put into getting at that level on twitter, whereas in art school, it was really easy to tell who was grinding the homework and putting in the hours. After a year, it generally wasn't a surprise to see who improved a lot and who didn't. Basically, just don't be so hard on yourself!
Also the oldest person in my class was a 47 year old woman, so it's never to late!
>I miss when I was in school, when I still felt hope for the future
I've been so disappointed by life that I honestly don't care anymore. I want to live in a cottage in the woods and do art. I would be happy with a simple life.

>>7723675
>I talked to quite a lot of people from anim who went to my school because they couldn't get into Sheridan after like 3 or 4 years of applying. The competition to get in seems insane. One girl said that she kept improving for 3 years but every year her point score in their portfolio/test thing kept dropping so she gave up lmao. Idk but it kinda seems like a scam if you already have to be an industry pro just to get in. Even more fuel to the "art school is for networking not learning" argument.
I might be getting too cocky then. I just assumed graduating at a top 20 university would get me an easy chance but maybe not. What art schools would you recommend? I guess you wouldn't recommend any which means I'm stuck on not knowing what to do with my life.
>take a look at the animation industry yearly event here if you're interested: https://taafi.com/
I have some animation work in the past but I've never completed a whole short film and even have a short plot written out but damn it do I have to focus on lighter subjects if I even want to attempt to submit stuff for this.

Also cute frog.

>>7721253
I'm sorry I posted my froge, and I'll post more when I finish it. I am just going to have to make art specifically for this thread since I don't want to get doxed.
>>7721255
It's a long thread to be fair.
>>7721273
Nice Hamburgor! It looks really really good!!!
>I do think that jumping into college (not just art college but college of any sort) right outside of highschool is a dire mistake for a variety of reasons, and a full time job should be delayed as long as possible if art is your goal.
I think it depends on the person, some people don't have the motivation to work part time and study art. I know a number of people from my childhood who decided to drop out of college or not go at all for various reasons, and they never took what they were doing seriously enough to go pro. Then they fell into weed and depression and before you know it they have been working a part time job until they are 30. College isn't perfect, but if you can go cheaply, then if nothing else, it can be a daycare to let you get a bit older and more mature for a few more years. Giving you a schedule and responsibilities so that you don't decompose for 4 years can be a good thing!
For me obviously, the dream right now is to find a part time job for a couple of days a week to supplement my disability income and then spend all my free time getting better at art. I wish the economy wasn't so garbage though.

>>7721760
>>7721776
>>7721834
>>7721843
I think a lot of the blame is also C*id and moving the schools online. Nobody gave a shit before, but when everyone cheated their way through finals in "online classes" and did labs virtually where they also cheated their balls off was the final nail in the coffin of the illusion. If we all know that higher ed does nothing to prepare you for the real world other than checking an arbitrary box, then why not take the easiest path through? It's heartbreaking to read accounts of students (the minority btw) who don't cheat on assignments and get much worse grades than the students who blatantly cheat.
It's going to be very grim when your engineer doesn't know how the machine actually works because he cheated his way through everything.
It's remarkable how low we value deep thinking and true understanding in the scientific sense.

>>7722944
>https://www.youtube.com/@thedrawingdatabase8743/playlists
Saved! Thank you for this really cool resource :D
>>7723035
I have talked to waay more people who have regretted getting a degree than not. The one exception being my doctors but lmao, they are doctors! SOO many people are working in fields that don't require a degree or in a field outside of their degree. The problem is that if you finish a degree (lets say in computer programming) and you can't land an entry level job within 1 year of graduating, then you are basically never going to get a job in that field. You will take a job as a clerk or in a grocery store somewhere, just temporarily, while you look for work in your field, then 5 or 10 years will pass and now you have a resume that will sink any chances of you landing a job like a torpedo. Nobody will dare hire a 30 year old programmer who graduated 8 years ago and has been doing random low skill jobs for the past 6 years. It is very strong rope fuel indeed to realize that your degree has an expiry date.
>Please don't do that, It's basically making up a sob story and paying like $6/month on a debt it's not a solution
I like Sam, but I am way too much of a baby to do his Chad method. He is not wrong though, the money is fake, the economy is fake, everything is fake. Debt maxxing is a valid response to a system that is on the verge of implosion. What do you need a credit score for anyways? You will never buy a house or have children afford anything worth having.
>That's a blessing in disguise, honestly it's really easy to get a shit retail job and work your way up until you can afford a little apartment on your own not thinking about the future. The degree eliminates this path of least resistance
Counter argument: I can hire a hitman to kill me if I don't draw for 2 days in a row. It will probably be cheaper than 100k and be less stressful than having that debt hang over you for the rest of your life.

>>7723040
If you are the same guy that has been asking about Canadian colleges and stuff, then I can't help but refer you back to my post here >>7718741
You should find something local to you that is cheap! Frankly, even find some old lady who is a painter and get her to mentor you for a few months or something. Do the thing cheaply (even if not at the best school or from the best teacher) for a few months to see if you can even stick with it.
>There is no upward mobility for me which is why I'm saying fuck it and trying something I've just wanted to excel at in the first place.
I don't think you need formal education to get skilled! Just start doing it!
>>7723696
I don't think you are the same guy, but advice is the same. A girl in one of my classes was telling the teacher how she wanted to go into illustration after, but she decided animation instead because she thought it would have better career prospects. The teacher nearly had a stroke when she heard that xD
She has exp in animation and many friends still in it and she was telling us how extremely difficult it is to find a job.
>I just assumed graduating at a top 20 university would get me an easy chance but maybe not. What art schools would you recommend?
There is probably not even 20 university or college programs that teach animation! Top 20??? that assumes that there are like 100's of schools that are not "top 20". Animation is a tiny tiny field, there are way more grads every year than jobs available (notice I didn't even say GOOD jobs). Graduating from a "top 20" school is like saying you are in the "top 10 most loved" of your siblings, but you only have 2 siblings xD
>What art schools would you recommend? I guess you wouldn't recommend any which means I'm stuck on not knowing what to do with my life.
Cheap and local!!! Keep grinding on ur own anyways!
>I have to focus on lighter subjects if I even want to attempt to submit stuff for this.
Keep scope as small as possible and actually finish things!

>>7723201
damn that's a really good drawring. Are you Mr. Moai by chance?
>Most colleges apart from art or trade schools are considerably more affordable
I thought trade schools were cheaper than bachelors degrees? Does a trade school cost as much as an art program?
>This is the false dichotomy we're often given that if we don't go to college for art we HAVE to go to college for something else and I say-perhaps, but not until you give yourself some years to make a serious go at it if you actually care.
I think back to when I was young and went to my university program straight out of HS. DESU I don't regret it since I had such terrible mental health issues at the time that had I gone to art school instead of stem, I would have very likely crashed out. I know I wouldn't have been able to handle the criticism, and probably not the workload. Had I not gone to uni and instead stayed home, I just know I would have spent all the time playing vidya and doing sinful acts to myself. Even though my life has been an abject failure by every measure, I still became more mature as I got older. My emotional self regulation got better and I am able to control my cravings and impulses easier.
Maybe getting a shitty job at McDonalds would have really motivated me to try hard in art, but maybe it could have had the opposite effect. Maybe I would have been so miserable that I would have fallen further into my addictions.

>>7723716
>Top 20??? that assumes that there are like 100's of schools that are not "top 20". Animation is a tiny tiny field, there are way more grads every year than jobs available (notice I didn't even say GOOD jobs). Graduating from a "top 20" school is like saying you are in the "top 10 most loved" of your siblings, but you only have 2 siblings xD
Fair point. I took some minor animation courses particularly in 3D but I guess you are right in that it means jack shit. My illusion is gone and there's no easy way out.

>>7723469
Maybe 3D isn't exactly what you are interested in? Have you tried painting or something else?
>I'm jelly of people who can keep working even when there's no teachers or deadlines looming over them.
This is def the hardest part. I found for myself that having an ironclad habit works wonders. I simply don't allow myself to game (or even browse my phone) until after 5pm (4pm if I'm really tired or burn out). I usually wake up around 5am and I've found that if you disallowed yourself from having free easy dopamine for the first half of the day, you naturally start working on whatever interests you. I've personally been painting, and learning Godot every single day for the past week. When I get bored with one I switch to the other xD
Another thing that keeps me motivated is that I told all my friends that I would have a first attempt at a shitty game playable by the end of December. We'll see how it goes in a year from now xD
>The course just made me realize that I'm not talented or good at art
When I was in the throws of it I was feeling this very strongly because we had some really really strong kids in my class, but now that some weeks have past I reflect on the fact that I wasn't the best but also was far from the worst.
A recent indie game that came out that is doing really well is called Schedule 1 (pic related). The game is good and done with passion, but the models, and textures, and animations are a bit fucking jank to say the least xD
My point is that there is as much room in the market for people with exceptional art as there is for people with more average levels of skill!
>you're gonna be competing for jobs with these talented 20 year olds and laidoff 40 year olds with 10 years experience.
I'm not even going to bother trying. With all my health issues, even if I could be employed by some miracle, the first crunch cycle would literally kill me or put me in a hospital.
That's why I want to try my hand at indie games!

>>7723733
fug I forgot to upload the pic

I would like to learn drawing and programming to create something that could give me some money, but I am far from mathematical thinking and such. At least you have technical data...

>>7723673
>Nowadays even the most expensive computer + drawing tablet costs less than a used car, the internet is free education, printer paper and dollar store pens cost a pittance. If you want to get good then there has never been a lower barrier to entry than now!
Well said; a solid laptop and an older Large Intuos are inexpensive, good digital and traditional materials are worth the investment.

>>7723675
Push it further, lad. Go to: ctrlpaint.com/library and watch some brief videos about opacity, flow etc.-understanding these things will help you give more nuance to your rendering. There is a ton of info here and most of the concepts are articulated in a very effective and concise way.

>>7723679
I appreciate the insider info, does the school post student work anywhere? I would like to see the spectrum directly.

(had to split this post up because of too many backlinks)

>>7723698
>Nice Hamburgor!
Thank you!

>some people don't have the motivation to work part time and study art

Unfortunately most people will not be able to get away with not working at some point. Even right out of highschool, 20 hours or so of menial labor still leaves plenty of time for non-work activities, perhaps far moreso than pursuit of a non-art college degree would.

On the other hand, a non-art degree will not only force you to physically abandon art in favor of the classroom most days of the week, but follows you back to your dorm room in the form of study time, projects and homework assignments as well. If holding a part-time job is difficult, preparing for a career could absolutely be as bad or worse.

Once again though I'm not suggesting one remains an economic nihilist and works retail/in warehouses for their entire life forever as I have, but rather you start thinking about that degree when you're no younger than 22 and can do so with confidence that you'd put your best effort forward with art.

>>7723725
Thank you

>mr. Moai
Afraid not! Much respect to him, but I'm Loomis from the Drawpile

Are you still here OP? How where you taught Morpho? I have the anatomy book and just copy the pictures

>>7723675
nice frog

Are we swapping stories? I wanna share in the misery
>Want to be animator but cant draw well
>Go to local college taking fine art classes researching where to go for animation.
>College adds new 3D Degree
>its mostly auto cad, inventor and solid works with 2 classes about maya.
>graduate but bummed about lack of animation skills.
>friend says he has good success with online school animation Mentor.
>go try its competitor Ianimate
>next 10 years is part time retail and online 3d animation workshop
>struggle for a while before reading on why online schools dont help slow learners like me
>go to different online school and make Big progress as teacher was quick to see foundamental problems
>About to grind hard and make a new feature ready portfolio
> Dad passes away and that complete changes how i want to continue forward
>Am now looking for cad jobs thanks to wierd 3D degree

>>7715462 (OP)
Why I have started to feel this is fake as soon as he kept saying the professors were good?

Anyway, want to share what we could study an stuff. It's like the /ic/ sticky in a figurative way, or more litteral? I am in a stage of no improvement for years...

>>7724030
why would that make it fake?

I did 2 years of Art & Design at college and the workload was insane.

>>7724030

2 categories
>human form
>natural world

For human form, life drawing is the ideal, but not always available so feel free to use references or whatever.

For natural world, you could start with individual leaves, then flowers in pots and go from there.

Also, set up compositions on a table for some still life projects. Get a bunch of glasses/jugs/flower pots/bottles and organise in compositions. Once you get some confidence, make more complicated still life compositions.

Also study some art history. Pick a random artist from history and create a presentation (or a youtube video) about their life and their work.

Don't stress about materials so much. Don't worry about digital til you can actually draw imo.

If you want to improve try to find competitions. But be prepared to enter a couple of hundred competitions before you start to become pro. You will lose most.

>>7724025
Which online school? Animschool?

>>7724310
Ianimate for the first one and Rusty's animation school for the second one.

>>7724310
realized i should give more context.

I ran across a podcast on reddit on why online animation school like like Animation mentor and Inanimate aren't good fits for struggling students.

The reason is because the big online workshops are taking in a lot of students (you'll see like 8-12 students in a class) they tend to stick to a more rigid form of structure. So course 1 is animation basics like bouncing ball and walk cycle, course 2 is involved basic body mechanics like a short but simple action shot ( Lifting a heavy rock or jumping over a box) .
But because the schools are rigid in their structure. if your struggling to grasp the concept . there isn't enough time for the teacher to slow the course down and walk you through it, the next assignment is already starting. so my animation skills starts lagging behind.

I struggle at advance body mechanics for a while because i thought if i kept animating it would eventually click and I'd understand animation better but i kept making mistakes along the way and i couldn't make a high quality shot.

It was after the podcast that i realized that i needed to change workshops. While browsing youtube on animation schools i found rusty's. It was limited to 4 students per class. and not based on a rigid structure. i went in with the proper mindset of finding and fixing my animation work flow

The problems with my workflow were many .My references was under analyzed, My blocking was bad, my breakdown was bad, my timing was bad. my polish was bad, my keyboard setup was bad and so on. All these combined to having to work a lot longer to finished a shot. I can make good animations but not great animations.

I got alot better but damn i wish i switched and found a private mentor earlier

>>7724382
>I got alot better but damn i wish i switched and found a private mentor earlier

People like to talk about how "Genes" and "Talent" is king while it's really having good teachers that will help you learn the fastest.

>>7723752
I mean I am not that mathematically gifted. I have pretty bad ADD. I am literally that joke of the kid who is asked what is 4+3 and he doesn't know but then you ask tell him he had 4 dollars and then you gave him 3 more and suddenly he instantly knows he has 7 dollars xD
Even in my stem program, I excelled at things that were real, like chemistry and biology, but struggled in abstract mathematics. My brain just didn't give a shit unless I could reframe a problem into something real and interesting!
Video game development can certainly run the gamut from zero code drag and droppers in virtual code land to autistic neets who write TempleOS levels of unnecessary complexity and re-inventing the wheel. With modern game engines, you don't need to be very good at all at coding to make games. Undertale is written in an extremely unprofessional and low performance way, but it also renders like 12 pixels at a time so nobody notices on modern hardware xD
You shouldn't give up until you have at least tried!

>>7723809
>Push it further, lad. Go to: ctrlpaint.com/library and watch some brief videos about opacity, flow etc.-understanding these things will help you give more nuance to your rendering. There is a ton of info here and most of the concepts are articulated in a very effective and concise way.
Thank you for the complement! I've tried going through this guys stuff b4 art school but I just got lost and confused, maybe I'll have a look at it again!
I've heard from a lot of artists that I admire that you should be painting without transparency. I've also seen a lot of incredible work that only uses hard round brush and no opacity just to prove a point. I'm the type of person to get autisticly hyperfixated on finding the perfect tools or workflow or whatever instead of actually just drawing. For me the hard round is a necessary simplification for now! I'll see how far I can take it xD
>I appreciate the insider info, does the school post student work anywhere? I would like to see the spectrum directly.
Unfortunately I don't think they do, or if they do, then I wasn't able to find it. They do a show every year in may called GradEx [year #] which stands for graduate exposition I think:
https://www.ocadu.ca/events-and-exhibitions/gradex-110
It is hosted on their campus and completely free to attend to the public for all 4 days. If you can get to Toronto for a weekend you can basically comfortably walk through all the painting and illustration sections and sit and watch the animations from the animation students. There are usually only a handful of films and they are like 5 minutes long at max. The illustration and painting stuff takes up like 2 or 3 floors, and the rest of the stuff is like design, sculpture, they even have an architecture program but they call it something stupid like environmental design (I don't remember exactly).
It's honestly a great time for being absolutely free xD

>>7723810
>On the other hand, a non-art degree will not only force you to physically abandon art in favor of the classroom most days of the week, but follows you back to your dorm room in the form of study time, projects and homework assignments as well. If holding a part-time job is difficult, preparing for a career could absolutely be as bad or worse.
I think this is definitely true, but to play devils advocate; a person who learns how much real jobs suck will at least be cured of wondering if the grass is greener on the other side. For my part, I'm extremely grateful that I was given a chance to go to art school just to have a taste for it. I feel like if I didn't, even if I became the most successful pro artist, there would have been a part of me still wondering if I am a fraud because I didn't go to a "real art school". I feel like a young person who aspires to be an artist but then faces challenges might have an unrealistic idea like "if only I went into law or got a compsci degree like my parents said, then I would be making 10 figures right out of college and have a really hot gf and a fast car and a big house", when the reality is often anything but.

>mr. Moai
>Afraid not! Much respect to him, but I'm Loomis from the Drawpile
Oh my bad! I saw the stern facial expression and strong brow ridge on the figure and my mind immediately went to a moai xD
You have a very cool style! Definitely a mature artist!
I haven't really been keeping up with the IC lore since I was so busy in school so I'll have to lurk moar to get familiar again! Nice to meet you!

>>7723819
>Are you still here OP?
Sorry I'm trying to keep up with the thread but it takes me like an hour to catch up and reply to everyone! I try to check once a day though!
>How where you taught Morpho? I have the anatomy book and just copy the pictures
Actually this unlocked a memory about that favourite figure teacher of mine. There was a student in our program in another class than mine. He was like pre-prebeg. Like his gesture drawings weren't even stick figures. Anyways this teacher took like an hour after teaching our class just to help students like him who were really struggling. She wasn't paid to do this, she just cared that much. Anyways the teacher lent this kid her personal Morpho book (I don't remember which one, probably figure and not anatomy), it was a really nice and big book xD
This kid was sitting outside our figure room in the hallway just drawing from this book. When class was over, the teacher invited this kid in and he would show her what he did and I eavesdropped on their conversation and basically, she was getting him to copy this figure on page n and that figure on page y and then he would bring her the drawings and she would have his drawings next to the pages and she would be showing him and explaining to him if he made any mistakes in proportion or shape etc. I wouldn't say she was exactly teaching him anatomy or even figure, she was just trying to get him to copy 1:1 the Morpho drawings.
I don't really know how it turned out since I never had that kid for any classes, but I saw her doing this with that guy for the whole first term.
Now this poor guy was at a level way lower than any I've seen in my program or on IC, and that was her approach with him.
Cont.

>>7723819
From my personal perspective, I had spent almost 100% of my free time going to the live nude models to draw, but in retrospect I wish I had spent 50% of my free time just doing master studies. I feel like I hit a certain point where I plateaued because I was just making the same mistakes over and over again without seeing them or if I did see them, and even if they were explained to me by teachers, I just didn't know exactly how to incorporate a more correct approach into my practice.
BTW my teacher incorporated Hampton, Bridgeman and Morpho into her teaching. She also loved Stonehouse's anatomy and a few other books. I wish I had attacked these books more vigorously when I ran into problems in figure drawing, instead of foolishly just doubling down into spending more time at nude sessions.
I think to say that only copying without trying to draw from life or ref to learn is a mistake for sure, but not copying at least somewhat is shooting yourself in the foot!

>>7723917
>nice frog
Thank you!
>>7723696
>Also cute frog.
Thank you! Sorry I missed it b4!

Thank you everyone for enjoying my cute frog!

>>7724025
>Dad passes away and that complete changes how i want to continue forward
Damn man I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that you are hanging in there!
>>7724382
>It was after the podcast that i realized that i needed to change workshops. While browsing youtube on animation schools i found rusty's. It was limited to 4 students per class. and not based on a rigid structure. i went in with the proper mindset of finding and fixing my animation work flow
>The problems with my workflow were many .My references was under analyzed, My blocking was bad, my breakdown was bad, my timing was bad. my polish was bad, my keyboard setup was bad and so on. All these combined to having to work a lot longer to finished a shot. I can make good animations but not great animations.
>I got alot better but damn i wish i switched and found a private mentor earlier
I'm glad you found something that works! Def. one of the best things about school is when a knowledgeable teacher can point out the biggest handful of mistakes that are slowing you down and that can be a shortcut to like 6 months of trying to figure it out on your own.
It is very white pill to realize that often bad art is bad for specific and addressable reasons! We can all improve if we are hardworking and clever enough!
And I'm sorry but I can't really speak about animation stuff except things that I've heard in school, but I am glad more knowledgeable people are chipping in! I was much more interested in illustration anyways!

>>7724030
>Why I have started to feel this is fake as soon as he kept saying the professors were good?
I've heard some real horror stories about some art schools and art professors on the internet. I definitely understand the skepticism about my post but I assure you I am not an industry plant trying to convince you to got to art school xD
I would say that of the 10ish art teachers I had in the program over the year, 2 or 3 of them were absolutely mind boggling amazing. Like I would still pay full price just to do only their handful of classes instead of the full year xD
Then the majority of teachers were good, but not life changing. A lot of students had beef with 1 or 2 of the teachers, but I think it was more a clash of personality than anything. I'm a big people pleaser so I tried my best even in the classes I initially wasn't that interested in like graphic design and art hist. so I can't say that I had any "bad" teachers but others from my classes might be writing a totally different post lmao. I learned a bit of something different even from different teachers teaching the same class; like all the painting classes, one of my teachers worked primarily in set painting for movies and TV and she taught us a lot of texture and material work (even how to fake rust on metal and special effect stuff xD), another painting teacher was a muralist, so he was telling us all about that field, another was a more traditional fine artist/portraitist etc.

I thought I was lucky to get generally such amazing teachers, but from conversations I've had, it seems like there is such massive competition for teaching positions and almost all the work is contract based so basically only the very best teachers get hired even in mid tier schools like the ones I went to. Almost all my profs had experience working in every school in the area, and some even in very prestigious name brand schools. I think this is the reason I never had a teacher that I felt like didn't deserve to be there!

>>7724030
>Anyway, want to share what we could study an stuff. It's like the /ic/ sticky in a figurative way, or more litteral? I am in a stage of no improvement for years...
I think u kind of have to be more specific on what ur current level is and what you need.
>>7724155 has a good post and also I posted a bunch above like >7720322
>7717660
>7717654
>7717651
>7717641
(sorry again because of spam filter)
Realistically I don't think there is anything in art school that you cannot recreate at least in some way on your own at home. If you are stagnating it might be because you need an objective assessment of your work from strangers. You could post on IC and ask people what you should work on or what is lacking in your work!

>>7724393
>People like to talk about how "Genes" and "Talent" is king while it's really having good teachers that will help you learn the fastest.
My favourite quote is from an artist called Sinix Design, in a video he said something like "talent is literally just whether or not you were encouraged to draw as a child".
Yeah there is more nuance than that, since there are objectively people with very low IQ who would struggle to learn almost anything, and there are people with very high IQ with excellent memories and impeccable attention spans who obviously pick up skills faster than average; but overall I think he is actually right.
I've personally heard horror stories about children who were brutally beaten by their parents because they doodled as small children, because the parents wanted their kids to be doctors or lawyers or whatever and they considered drawing a childish waste of time (even at the ripe old age of 5 or 6 years old xD), and then on the other end you have children (often born to families of artists) who are encouraged and supported when they show interest in something like drawing, and these people often naturally become professional artists later in life.

>>7724607
>hard round only
When someone says they're using a hard round brush they aren't talking about the specific opacity (transparency) or flow settings (https://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/opacity-vs-flow), or even whether the brush's size reacts to pressure sensitivity, but rather the shape of the brush specifically. In contrast to a "hard round" or "soft round" brush for example there are textured brushes mimicking traditional medias like ink or graphite (such as that which I used here to draw this kangaroo), special effects brushes or "stencil-like" shapes and patterns.

A universal observed phenomenon of light's relation to a surface is whether it casts a hard edge or a soft edge, so the hard round or soft round brushes (https://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/brush-technique-hard-and-soft ; https://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/hard-and-soft-shadow-edges) can often do the heavy lifting with regards to getting your result on their own. Some people may eschew using a soft round brush or any textured brushes, certainly-but it's important to understand what that means to avoid unnecessarily limiting yourself.

>>7724623
Thank you! You're always welcome to join the Drawpile by the way.

>>7724673
>horror stories
Yes, unfortunately several people I'm close to have experiences in which their drawings or those of other family members were tore up and discarded as a disciplinary measure by their parents. Aside from physically striking the child I can't think of something much more abusive. Some people end up dealing with all that and more, very sad.

>>7724658
Link to the professors and their work? I remember looking up a Calarts professor once and he was unironically "low-int" or maybe even "high-beg".

>>7723716
If I'm not even going to get into the art school to begin with probably best to just give up and accept making a little bit of money. I still kind of see no point in savings but maybe being a NEET is an advantage and maybe just maybe a girl will like me and I'd have savings to spend on vacations with.

>>7724806
>but rather the shape of the brush specifically.
Yeah I am using Krita and there are so many brushes that they make my head spin. I'm literally paralyzed by anxiety because there are too many and I don't know which one to choose!
>there are textured brushes mimicking traditional medias
I don't know if I'm drawing at the wrong resolutions but when I tried to use the graphite pencil brushes my lines always look so bad and pixelated. What res did you draw your beautiful kangaroo on?
>kangaroo
I love this so much btw! I love the peck and arm muscles!!! This piece somehow feels like it was inspired by Proko's amazing creature xD

>A universal observed phenomenon of light's relation to a surface is whether it casts a hard edge or a soft edge, so the hard round or soft round brushes can often do the heavy lifting with regards to getting your result on their own.
Thank you for the links! I'll certainly check this out!
DESU, being inspired by you I tried to paint a funny kangaroo that I found on the internet, and I gave up after a few hours of trying :(
In art school we spent a lot of time drilling glass and metal. The teachers basically taught us that shiny material is all about painting hard edges and fast transitions as that's what makes something read as reflective or glassy, but the closest we got to fur was matte drapery.
The fur is really hard to paint cause I see that it has a dark undercoat, but also lots of really bright hairs right on top. Like the fur is very dark near the root then light at the tip, and then also light effects on the animal and everything and my brain is kinda fried. Painting glossy frog skin is much easier with a hard round but I think for fur I might want a textured brush or with some transparency? Is it possible to paint fur with a simple large brush and have it look good?
Do you know any good resources on learning how to paint fur digitally?

>>7724806
>You're always welcome to join the Drawpile by the way.
Thank you for the kind invitation! I'll try to drop in sometime but I feel like I want to practice a bit more before I embarrass myself too badly xD
>Aside from physically striking the child I can't think of something much more abusive. Some people end up dealing with all that and more, very sad.
Yeah it sux. I went through my fair share of trauma as a kid and I'm still dealing with PTSD from it even years later. A lot of people are lamenting how it sux they are older now and stuff but I'm honestly glad that that period of my life is basically over now.

>>7724813
I'm sorry, I really don't want to dox. My school was small enough that everything I posted here would be very easy to link back to me.
>I remember looking up a Calarts professor once and he was unironically "low-int" or maybe even "high-beg".
Maybe he was an animation prof or something?
>>7725308
>If I'm not even going to get into the art school to begin with
My program didn't have any portfolio or test requirements! It was an art fundamentals program so they accepted basically everyone of any skill level. Not everyone made it through, but everyone was accepted.
>NEET
>having a girlfriend
>having savings
>going on vacations
uuuh idk what to tell u m8.
If you want to do art, then you shouldn't give up! You can learn art without art school!

>>7725510
>If you want to do art, then you shouldn't give up! You can learn art without art school!
I suppose. I wanted to maximize everything into it so I could have a life with an end goal in mind but now that I'm back to here I'm just remembering how lonely I will be for my 30s and basically my life. Well I guess I chose this by having a conscience and by going to college.

Bumping this thread since I think it's informative.

>>7724663
>I think u kind of have to be more specific on what ur current level is and what you need
It's like I know a bit of everything (not animation, 3D...) at least on a basic level, but then there is nothing I can apply.

Just yesterday I wanted to color something, and it's like I forgot how to again...
Pretty much is like this with everything. Already having something that I could color is like a miracle.

>>7715462 (OP)
>it just takes a lot longer than you think.
Yeah that's what makes learning something hard, genius

>>7727790
Some people really think it just comes without any work needed. I say this like most of my mass improvements haven't come through giant breaks.

>>7715462 (OP)
Random anon here I haven't read the whole thread but I'm 21 and basically in this boat right now too, my art school has a bachelor's degree for 2D Animation I am pursuing but the whole first year is fundamentals and I just started so that's what I'm doing. We haven't started life drawing yet but so far we've covered things like gesture, color theory, perspective, and design. I'm alright with how my work has turned out so far and being in this college has perks like going to see animated movies early and an animation showcase they do every year, I really just want to start taking the animation classes because that's what I love and already do out of class. I've started the process of making my own film for the animation showcase even though I really don't have to yet, just because I love animation and wanna make something. The only issue so far is I really don't feel connected to any of my peers, but that's more of a me problem, I don't make any effort to socialize with them out of class and I don't know how I'd even do that because I'm autistic as fuck and never had any friends in my life