>>723111686
The vast majority of the audience has been set up to assume Carol is The Knight
The Truck Freaks who have been obsessing over who Dess and The Knight are for four years got their reveal in Chapter 3 and they certainly did not predict it, Dess Knight was a fringe theory. People who are so invested in the story also understand that this isn't a whodunnit and there's much more going on to learn about than just trying to epically outsmart the guy writing the story and pretend you had the correct pet theory all along. Right?
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>>715475575
>>715476325
>>715476786
Kris doing their best Chara impression at the end of Chapter 1 is yanking your chain, but it's not dishonest either. They are in fact suspicious and using their knife for something nefarious, as confirmed by the end of Chapter 2, and even them looking into the camera is an early hint that they are aware of YOU to the point of knowing exactly where you're watching them from.
Carol's katana(s) is an actual textbook red herring, it's meant to make you think that she's The Knight. But it's still not entirely misleading, she's definitely involved in the conspiracy and probably the actual mastermind, she's just not The Knight.
>Catti's and Jockington's rooms in ch 2
Catti doesn't have a room, CattY does. The rooms are just based on the search history of the various townspeople who have used the library, this isn't leading you to anything.
>Asgore's buildup as a scary bad guy
Papyrus and other monsters in Snowdin discredit Asgore as a serious evil overlord type long before you meet him. But neither Papyrus or Toriel or anyone else are actually lying about him to mislead you. He has in fact sworn to take your SOUL and will seriously try to kill you to do it, and he's also King Fluffybuns.
>lots of humorous moments based around opposite outcomes
That's just a joke. Not every element of subversion in a story is a "red herring." A red herring is a distraction from something important, a false lead in an investigation.
"Red herring" is also not an inherently bad thing, no story gives you all the answers immediately. There are countless examples where exploring a false lead leads to greater understanding of the story, people just focus on the shitty "lol it was just a coincidence, gotcha!" examples where some shitty hack writer pulls the rug out from under you at the last second because they don't know how to actually tell a story.
>>715476325
>>715476786
Kris doing their best Chara impression at the end of Chapter 1 is yanking your chain, but it's not dishonest either. They are in fact suspicious and using their knife for something nefarious, as confirmed by the end of Chapter 2, and even them looking into the camera is an early hint that they are aware of YOU to the point of knowing exactly where you're watching them from.
Carol's katana(s) is an actual textbook red herring, it's meant to make you think that she's The Knight. But it's still not entirely misleading, she's definitely involved in the conspiracy and probably the actual mastermind, she's just not The Knight.
>Catti's and Jockington's rooms in ch 2
Catti doesn't have a room, CattY does. The rooms are just based on the search history of the various townspeople who have used the library, this isn't leading you to anything.
>Asgore's buildup as a scary bad guy
Papyrus and other monsters in Snowdin discredit Asgore as a serious evil overlord type long before you meet him. But neither Papyrus or Toriel or anyone else are actually lying about him to mislead you. He has in fact sworn to take your SOUL and will seriously try to kill you to do it, and he's also King Fluffybuns.
>lots of humorous moments based around opposite outcomes
That's just a joke. Not every element of subversion in a story is a "red herring." A red herring is a distraction from something important, a false lead in an investigation.
"Red herring" is also not an inherently bad thing, no story gives you all the answers immediately. There are countless examples where exploring a false lead leads to greater understanding of the story, people just focus on the shitty "lol it was just a coincidence, gotcha!" examples where some shitty hack writer pulls the rug out from under you at the last second because they don't know how to actually tell a story.
>>714313249
We don't know what happened in between EQUIPing Noelle and Kris having a meltdown in the bathroom. We know enough time passed for Susie to find the guitar on her own, bring it to the living room, get caught by Asgore and have Carol show up and kick everybody out.
She could have been called by Asgore instead, or came to take control of the situation after Kris failed to check in with her, but in either case she's still part of the conspiracy and motivated by keeping Susie from getting the code.
"This happens in the Weird Route" isn't an explanation for what happened in the normal route, and the game has already skipped over things in the Weird Route becuase you know what's supposed to happen normally and retreading it would just be wasting your time.
>>714316251
>Asgore also walked in
Asgore was already at the house and does nothing to stop Susie from finding the code. In fact, Asgore is almost certainly looking for the code himself, based on what you can overhear in the vents and him reacting to Susie talking about the code when they're outside later.
>He could've alterted Carol himself, who he knew would be mad
Why? If he's concerned about Susie handling the guitar, he sure doesn't show any sign of it.
If Carol was only concerned about her daughter inviting a hooligan over, why not just tell Asgore to tell them to leave? Why not call Noelle herself and tell them to leave?
Is Susie putting her claws on Dess's guitar really such a crisis in itself that she had to personally intervene to make sure that it was taken care of?
Are we going to keep pretending that somehow Carol, the mayor of the town, who has one of the codes to the Dark World bunker hidden in the guitar of her daughter who disappeared in there, the absolute control freak and workaholic who keeps everything in her life in order, who has a fucking Black Shard katana and schizo board in her bedroom, is somehow the ONLY person who doesn't know what's going on here?
We don't know what happened in between EQUIPing Noelle and Kris having a meltdown in the bathroom. We know enough time passed for Susie to find the guitar on her own, bring it to the living room, get caught by Asgore and have Carol show up and kick everybody out.
She could have been called by Asgore instead, or came to take control of the situation after Kris failed to check in with her, but in either case she's still part of the conspiracy and motivated by keeping Susie from getting the code.
"This happens in the Weird Route" isn't an explanation for what happened in the normal route, and the game has already skipped over things in the Weird Route becuase you know what's supposed to happen normally and retreading it would just be wasting your time.
>>714316251
>Asgore also walked in
Asgore was already at the house and does nothing to stop Susie from finding the code. In fact, Asgore is almost certainly looking for the code himself, based on what you can overhear in the vents and him reacting to Susie talking about the code when they're outside later.
>He could've alterted Carol himself, who he knew would be mad
Why? If he's concerned about Susie handling the guitar, he sure doesn't show any sign of it.
If Carol was only concerned about her daughter inviting a hooligan over, why not just tell Asgore to tell them to leave? Why not call Noelle herself and tell them to leave?
Is Susie putting her claws on Dess's guitar really such a crisis in itself that she had to personally intervene to make sure that it was taken care of?
Are we going to keep pretending that somehow Carol, the mayor of the town, who has one of the codes to the Dark World bunker hidden in the guitar of her daughter who disappeared in there, the absolute control freak and workaholic who keeps everything in her life in order, who has a fucking Black Shard katana and schizo board in her bedroom, is somehow the ONLY person who doesn't know what's going on here?
>>714305470
It's amazing that people can just flush a half an hour long gameplay sequence demonstrating that Kris and Carol are directly opposing you out of their mind because they saw one word colored #FF0000 and their brain turned off
It's amazing that people can just flush a half an hour long gameplay sequence demonstrating that Kris and Carol are directly opposing you out of their mind because they saw one word colored #FF0000 and their brain turned off
>>714135384
Noelle says
>* I'll, um, go bring my dad back to the hospital.
when she leaves the Church before this. You can visit Rudy at the hospital yourself before you go to Noelle. This statement doesn't make sense in itself - it would be "just me here" if she was at home with her father. It's just a small error.
>Except Carol arrives at the exact same time (early) even in weird route where there was no phone call
We don't know what happened in between >EQUIPing Noelle and Kris flipping out in the bathroom. We're only told that Susie found the guitar on her own, Asgore caught her with it in the living room and kept her busy talking to her until Carol showed up.
It's possible that Kris still alerted her to come home - I find it unlikely that Kris was in any state to do that, but they still found some time to wipe their phone like they do in the normal route. It's possible that Carol was expecting Kris maintain contact, and when Kris failed to report because of what we did, she took control of the situation. It's also possible that Asgore alerted her when he found Susie in the house, or even that Noelle herself called her after the experience she just had. We don't know, but we can't say nobody called her either. It seems pretty farfetched to argue it was just a coincidence and the person who said "I'll be right over" never showed up (or was a bedridden man who was already there and did nothing to affect the situation).
>We also have Carol calling Kris at the end of weird route, and she doesn't do the black speech groaning that whoever is talking with Kris during the visit does
If the black speech is meant to be an in-story thing and not just the speaker's identity being arbitrarily obscured from us, then Carol is just using a voice changer when she's talking to Kris about their evil plans because she knows that the SOUL could be listening. That wasn't necessary in the Weird Route, where she's speaking in her capacity as Noelle's mother.
Noelle says
>* I'll, um, go bring my dad back to the hospital.
when she leaves the Church before this. You can visit Rudy at the hospital yourself before you go to Noelle. This statement doesn't make sense in itself - it would be "just me here" if she was at home with her father. It's just a small error.
>Except Carol arrives at the exact same time (early) even in weird route where there was no phone call
We don't know what happened in between >EQUIPing Noelle and Kris flipping out in the bathroom. We're only told that Susie found the guitar on her own, Asgore caught her with it in the living room and kept her busy talking to her until Carol showed up.
It's possible that Kris still alerted her to come home - I find it unlikely that Kris was in any state to do that, but they still found some time to wipe their phone like they do in the normal route. It's possible that Carol was expecting Kris maintain contact, and when Kris failed to report because of what we did, she took control of the situation. It's also possible that Asgore alerted her when he found Susie in the house, or even that Noelle herself called her after the experience she just had. We don't know, but we can't say nobody called her either. It seems pretty farfetched to argue it was just a coincidence and the person who said "I'll be right over" never showed up (or was a bedridden man who was already there and did nothing to affect the situation).
>We also have Carol calling Kris at the end of weird route, and she doesn't do the black speech groaning that whoever is talking with Kris during the visit does
If the black speech is meant to be an in-story thing and not just the speaker's identity being arbitrarily obscured from us, then Carol is just using a voice changer when she's talking to Kris about their evil plans because she knows that the SOUL could be listening. That wasn't necessary in the Weird Route, where she's speaking in her capacity as Noelle's mother.