There is a distinct lack of games with Aztec or other Mesoamerican themed aesthetics and cuIture.

That's because brown people aren't smart enough to make them

>>716279627 (OP)
I want something like ghost of tsushima mixed with rdr2 set in pre contract america

losers lol

>>716279627 (OP)
And that’s a good thing.

>>716279627 (OP)
Maybe because devs don't want to deal with brownoids SEETHE-ing they got a tiny detail wrong?

>>716279627 (OP)
Am I retarded for thinking Talim looks Mesoamerican even though she's canonically Pinay?

>>716280212
>tribes loose against white people
>"losers lol"
>rhodesians lose against black people
>"neverr forget the brave people of rhodesia so unfair :'("

>>716280747
Rhodesians never lost against the black africans nonny....

>>716280747
Nobody says that. Anyone under about 50 has never even heard of Rhodesia.

inb4 that one insane anon obsessed with the fake mesoamerican history starts cumming his pants about the giant cities

You're right OP, but your pics aren't super accurate to actual Aztec aesthetics either.

Mind you, they're not terrible, both are way less bad then most of the stuff on the left side of pic related, but they're not great either: The jaguar warsuit on the left art seems to be actual pelt rather then feather mosaic (which isn't inherently wrong, but is overrepresented in media), the helmet is quite off, as is some stuff with the armbands and legbands, the breechcloth, and Macuahuitl (They could be way worse, but they could also be a fair bit better).

Meanwhile the Jesus Helguera piece on the right is, while one of his less bad ones, still not great, namely that the helmet there is an overly literal adaptation of a Mixtec (not Aztec) eagle headdress which rendered realistically wouldn't be proportioned that largely and may have been more a way of conveying a figure's name or calendar sign in the original Codex rather then necessarily being a literal garment. I'm also not sure what the "shirt" he's wearing there is meant to be, maybe a Ehuatl wartunic, but if so it doesn't look quite right for one. The bracelet and shield are actually pretty in-line with real examples but I think are still invented, though that's just a nitpick.

>>716279689
>Americans make a shit ton of games about Japan and Medieval Europe
>Japanese people make tons of games about Medieval Europe
>Europeans make plenty of games about Japan or America/Canada
>All of them make nonspecific fantasy stuff

Why does it have to be Mexicans etc making games about Mesoamerica?

>>716280949
Based, I recommend this a lot, full title is Tlatoani: Aztec cities. It's an isometric Impressions style citybuilder a la Ceaser III

>>716280997
Specify what part of anything I've posted you think is incorrect and I'll post sources or evidence showing it's true, or I'll admit to being wrong

1/?

And there he is lmao

>>716281494
rule of cool nigga

there is that one porn game
the demo was pretty jank when I tried it ages ago though

>>716279627 (OP)
>Devs start making cool aztec themed games again.
>Nothing but endless bitching from culture war faggots.
its all so tiresome. Especially since these niggers don't even play the games they bitch about. They're like the fake gamer girls back then.

>>716281494
Based Aztecanon is here
I'm going to sleep so I won't see your reply til tomorrow, but I was wondering, how much of it is true that the Aztec empire wasn't necessarily more bloodthirsty or depraved than other cultures in the area, they just happened to be the one that was most successful military wise? Appreciate the response if you do shoot one to this question!

Dominions 6

>>716279627 (OP)
guacamelee

>>716279627 (OP)
I’ve been saying this for a long time but the next rollslop should be Meso American themed. The medieval setting is very played out. Central America has a lot of cool mythology.

Genshin has lots of Mexica and Mayan mythology like Huitzilopochtli and Kulkan

Obligatory Aztez shilling

>Believed in a mythology where the gods gave up their literal body parts and limbs from feet to arms and intestines to organs to keep the universe running.
>Believe the world is made of dead bodies and body parts strewn up together, made from beings like Tlaltecuhtli (Earth Monster) and Cipactli.
>The national instrument is a whistle used in rituals that makes blood-curdling screams
>Had racks and pillars with nothing but skulls of sacrificed victims. The death toll nearing 20,000 sacrifices a year across the empire.
>Believed in an afterlife where most people will suffer the most excruciating pains imaginable where they have to travel through ash wastelands, unimaginable coldness/skin-shattering ice, trekking through rivers and seas of blood filled with jaguars made of blood, and once they reach the layer of the death god and peer into his death stare they will cease to exist.
>On top of human sacrifice which required ripping the heart out of a live victim, they engaged in ritual cannibalism for Xochiquétzal, flaying people alive and wearing their skin for Xipe Totec, throwing people into caves and sealing them within to make them die of starvation for the god Tezcatlipoca, and torturing infants/babies while collecting their tears and disposing of them afterward by throwing them alive into a bonfire for Tlaloc.
>It was customary for people of the empire to partake in some form of ritual sacrifice through bloodletting, which required piercing their tongues or genitals with cactus needles.
>Most punishments ended up with perpetrators being bludgeoned to death slowly (drinking pulque while on military duty).
>When Hernan Cortez reached the Temple Mayor where most sacrifices were held, he said the ENTIRE plaza was covered in blood from dried to new.
>People lived within houses where they buried dead family members and ancestors in their floors and walls
What the absolute fuck creates a society like this? What circumstances compel a people to become this death-obsessed?

>>716282170
Too bad the vocal base was too busy seething about skin color and lack of men to care. Fuck those fags.

>>716282325
All the batshit lunacy you see cartels do that should violate the Geneva Convention all starts making sense.

>>716282416
Yeah

>>716282325
They really haven’t changed much. I’m baffled by Mexicans. They’re a somewhat intelligent race and they’ve created some impressive cities and cultures but they’re so fucking cruel. How can a culture which produces great works of architecture and philosophy turn around and carve peoples faces off with bone knives? What do you even do with a race like that?

>>716281494
one of the few recognizable 4chan autists who isn't a cocksucking faggot. your posts actually made me want to start looking into mesoamerican history for myself, despite never really giving it much thought before
a lot of that also coincides with the fact that i'm just sick to death of basic tolkien high fantasy though. i'd kill to see a fantasy setting with a more niche coat of paint, like maya or inca

>>716282325
That's what makes them cool. It's like an entire culture and society that decided at some point
>we unironically want to be the bloodthirsty villains that the good guys have to team up to defeat
And just did it without ever looking back. Their dedication to the bit was admirable

Great thread, need more Aztecs

LB7 was so kino

>>716279627 (OP)
I always thought the Jaguar suits were really dweebish
Like a neat idea but I've never seen it look cool in a recreation

>>716282325
I'm convinced that their priests came in contact with some kind of demon while tripping on a bunch of shrooms, cacti and DMT, that influenced their culture from there on out.

>>716279627 (OP)
>tfw no Aztec-themed Glorantha game like king of dragon pass based on the rain people
>mfw the dev team behind the recent six ages games is doing a new project instead of finishing the trilogy

>>716279689
I could but I'm too sad to create anything

>>716279627 (OP)
I just bought Tlatoani a week ago

>>716282325
If you did some actual research the civilizations they lived in were a lot more tamer than you'd think. They did sacrifice people but it wasn't out of some primal savage hate for human beings or even really done with much malice. They really thought they were keeping the world running. And the 200000 skulls hasn't actually been proven yet, the most they've found is about a 100 skulls in one place. In fact historians believe when they met other societies they would basically spread propaganda of how many people they killed to look tougher. But they weren't just mindless savages, they had society rules, water systems, and would even let slaves work for their freedom.

Xolotl game when

>>716279627 (OP)
Some of the accounts of ritual human sacrifice practiced by the natives would make for an A+ horror game.

>>716283720
This. The use of sacrifices was more of a way to control ethnic groups, hence why most of them sided with the Spaniards.

>>716283794
speaking of egyptians, crazy how utterly violent everything about them was
I sometimes forget that at the end of the day, despite their impeccable aesthetic and architectural taste, they were an African dynasty

>>716279627 (OP)
Age of Empires II

>>716281494
I like Mesoamerica-Anon, he is a non-retarded version of Barneyfag.

>>716282656
You are literally talking about the smallest percent of an entire population that does that. You can say the same with Americans and why a certain percentage will murder someone in broad daylight over 50 bucks. Mexicans are some of the hardest working sweetest people. there are also some not so nice ones, just like in America, just like in the rest of the world. People go vacation in Mexico and have a great time

>>716283794
screw that, give me more cute Anubis in video games. The only one I really got is Gauntlet: Dark Legacy

>>716282325
>>716283720
I wonder how the remaining Aztecs felt when all the sacrifices ended once the Spanish started putting an end to all of that and started running shit, and the universe didn't end.

Also insane how the Spanish got 200,000 injuns to storm Tenochtitlan. The Aztecs must have been truly despised.

>>716284263
Its a shame, but from that fire was birthed the Vaqueros, and from that the Cowboys, so it wasn't all a waste

>>716284206
No but he's kinda right, the police mostly cares about their own stuff so basically the security is in charge of civilians, lynching is quite common all around the country.

>>716284263
>The Aztecs must have been truly despised.
They were. When it comes to 'States universally hated by all of their contemporaries' their only real competition is the Assyrians. For more or less the same reason, both were just unreasonably violent and brutal to their vassals.

>>716280503
Nobody cares what Spaniards think.

This thread pretty much immediately deviated away from video games but I gotta say I am enjoying the history discussion

>>716284587
I care

>>716281494
Using mud huts to depict mesoamerican cities will always be funny to me like they just be doing shit

God damnit I wanted to go to bed early and there's already like 5 pages of shit I need to reply with

>>716281494
cont:

>>716281535
So do you have a specific example of stuff you think is fake or incorrect that I've posted or no? I'm willing to address whatever it i

In fact, I recently compiled a 30+ page document with links to specific examples of surviving ruins or manuscript depictions of Aztec architecture, ruins and city planning elements from Tenochtitlan, or stuff from other civilizations with a similar architecture style of urban design elements etc which match and serve as the inspiration for a lot of artistic reconstructions I post, so chances are I already have specific stuff on hand.

Obviously, of course, I also already have pic related to show the ruins, manuscripts, and historical accounts the artwork on the right side of >>716281494 draws from, and I also link to and post a lot of examples of surviving ruins and the like here: arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/640239519/#640246635 which was the base I used for the new 30+ page version

>>716281631
You think the stuff in OP's pic is cooler then the examples of stuff on the right side of >>716281494 ?

>>716282306
I endorse this too, great curayzee action game and pretty well researched, if very, very stylized

>>716283218
See pic and >>716281494 . Authentic reconstructions are still kinda onsies, but I think they look better then how most depictions tend to butcher them. Keep in mind the "jaguar" spot design was generally a mosaic of (possibly iridescent) feathers, the helmet would have had metal and precious stone inlays, etc. Even the good reconstructions often also don't show them as bulky enough since the suits were worn over what was essentially padded gambeson armor

>>716284542
>>716284263
I'll respond to specific info more later, but tl;dr the idea the Mexica of the Aztec capital were super hated and that's why Cortes got allies is mostly wrong, see: desuarchive.org/his/thread/17671430/#17672875

2/?

>>716281494
Sorry if this is a dumb question but were Aztec warrior outfits as cumbersome as they appear to be?

>>716279627 (OP)
>Kenshi
>Shek
>Fragment Axe

>Konami made cards based on Aztec
>It's the greatest shit possible with all the men wearing feathers on their head
Men should not be wearing feathers like a bird

>>716285349
wtf I like Yugioh again

>>716285349
>greatest
Gayest

i hope for far cry aztec or far cry wild west

I just wish more games would let me use picrel as a weapon. There's something really cool and fucked up about a on its face crude looking club studded with obsidian shards, that in actuality was so fucking sharp it could behead a horse
But was also so fragile that eventually with enough use, the obsidian shards would chip and break which just gives you even more horrible wounds. Imagine getting sliced open and getting a wound full of obsidian chips that are now going to fester and then you die of sepsis because it's the 1500s.
Honestly native americans made some awesome weapons with the resources they had available

>>716285408

>>716285582

>>716285349
they dont wear feathers to look pretty. They do it to honor their beliefs and religion which is rooted in the animals of the world. You wouldn't know that because you sit in your dark room all day void of sunlight and haven't touched grass in 7 months

>>716285671
>they didn't wear feathers to look pretty
How do you know, as far as we know they simply had a different fashion style, they looked fabulous with all those feathers and wild hairdos.

>>716284939
Nice pic

>>716284939
Cont:

>>716280212
Most of the forces fighting for the "Spanish" side were Mesoamerican armies, not just in the Cortes expedition (where in the siege the Conquistadors were less then 1% of "their own" forces), but even in expeditions and campaigns decades after the fact: Most of the Coronado expedition up into Kansas and shit in the 1540s for instance were Mesoamerican soldiers, and even the Spanish conquistadors in that expedition were often using Mesoamerican armor themselves, for instance, see pic. Even campaigns down against the Inca had some Mesoamerican soldiers, and there were some in the Philippines, too. Speaking of...

>>716280589
Talim doesn't look Mesoamerican but I'm not sure her clothing looks Filipino either. I can see how some Southeast Asian civilization and their clothing or architecture can look vaugely Mesoamerican at a glance/if you're not super familar with either, and DESU even to me Khmer architecture and sculptures at times looks really similar to specific stuff from some Maya sites.

>>716285068
I'm not sure what about them looks cumbersome to you, so? I describe the full body warsuits a bit more in >>716284939. See also the pic/info in https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/63632596/#63654400

>>716282947
I posted the Mesoamerican themed games I think are worthwhile here: https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/715496325/#715499632

>>716285349
>>716285647
>>716285582
Which archtype? I only know about Darklord Tezcatlipoca, the giant ant thing, some of the paranomaly cards, etc? If these are actually meant to be Aztec then they certainly don't look the part.


3/?

>>716284170
barneytranny is not even real

>>716283986
They were north african before the existence of arabs and before subsaharans had crossed the desert, the ancient egyptians no longer exist as a race. They were violent to be sure but probably not for the same reasons we think of africans as violent today

>>716286648
cont:

>>716283671
Have any feedback? I know a guy who knows the dev

>>716283059
LB7?

>>716280747
>>716280815
>>716280885
The Aztec and other Mesoamericans are pretty much categorically not "tribes": The region is defined in large part by having formal political states based in urban cities, which had been a thing in the region many thousands of years before say the Aztec existed, see pic. There's some groups at the fringes of the region which were chiefdoms or tribes but those are edge cases (ironically though the Aztec originated as some of those tribes from the Northwest migrating down into Central Mexico and then adopting urban civilization)

>>716281794
I'm also tired so I'm not gonna do a giant response to this, but I would broadly agree with that. There's some caveats in that even early on in Mexica history before they founded Tenochtitlan, there are accounts which frame them as especially warlike or prone to acts of bloody excess, such as the infamous incident where the Colhua princess was sacrificed after and her father (expecting to attend a political marriage) walked in on a priest wearing her flayed skin, or in another version the king asked them to go attack a city and bring back cut off ears as proof and instead they cut off noses at such a high quantity the king was aghast, but those examples are apocryphal legends that are usually framed in context as misunderstandings and examples of the Mexica being unjustly maligned and facing hardships en route to finally reaching the promised land where they'd found Tenochtitlan, or as kind of boasting myths to play up how hardcore they were as warriors, or some combination of those things...

4/?

>>716281494
Based Aztecfag.

>>716286648
>I'm not sure what about them looks cumbersome to you, so?

>>716282325
>>Believed in a mythology where the gods gave up their literal body parts and limbs from feet to arms and intestines to organs to keep the universe running.
>>Believe the world is made of dead bodies and body parts strewn up together, made from beings like Tlaltecuhtli (Earth Monster) and Cipactli.
This is pretty much Norse mythology when Odin and his brothers kill Ymir and use his skull to create the sky and his brains for the clouds.

>>716286931
>>716281794
>...or as kind of boasting myths to play up how hardcore they were as warriors, or some combination of those things...

cont:

Some versions don't even actually have sacrificing the princess and such at all, and most of these also involve acts of magic and the gods doing things so they're quite possibly/probably not even real events to begin with. If you read into them they also are kind of strange in that in a lot of tellings, the king of Colhuacan SHOULD have known his daughter was being requested as a sacrifice, and obviously with the ear/nose example it doesn't make much sense that he'd be upset when he asked them to basically go do that to begin with (other then if, again, it's just meant to be "guys we're so badass he asked us to invade this place and we did it so well even he got scared!").

That being said, there's also versions where it does come off as the Mexica actually being dicks and disliked by other groups prior to them being chased off to where they'd found Tenochtitlan...

>>716282170
>>716286008
>>716282473
I'm unconvinced that Citlali's eyes are intentionally meant to look like the red and white "Starry eye" glyphs, especially when they gave one as a pendant to Kachina who isn't even named after a Mesoamerican thing. I do agree she SHOULD have those glyphs since her name litterally means "star", though. Pic related has some redesigns I like.

The biker chick also only uses solar ray/sunbeam arrows in a totally superficial way and also isn't even named after a Mesoamerican thing. I've some reddit posts by, admittedly, somebody who clearly knows their Mesoamerican stuff which claims to draw connections between various Natlan designs and Mesoamerican iconography, but all of them seem like a big stretch IMO. The only Natlan design I think does anything kinda neat Kinich and even then only barely

One of my friends who made most of pic related talks about this more here: x.com/Majora__Z/status/1936051781219279272

5/?

i like the idea that small aztec towns and villages had small little baby temples. i dont know why but i think thats cute

>>716283218
Isn't this the Warhammer 40K artist?

>>716279627 (OP)
They would downplay or completely remove and ignore the eternal murder train sacrifices of people in the Aztec empire and the fact that a prime source of protein for those people came from the bodies of said sacrifices and the game as a result would be totally gay.

>>716287291
>>716281794
>prior to them being chased off to where they'd found Tenochtitlan...

Cont:

...but those are, again, just specific versions. Again I will link something one of my fellow Mesoamerica infodumping friend's posts here who talks more about some of the variations: https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/1ejmsu4/one_of_the_top_ten_biggest_blunders_in_history/lggrtq5/

There's is maybe something to be said about Mexica sacrifices reaching a scale no other group probably got close to preforming them at, but A: we don't actually know that for sure, and B: The Mexica also had unparalleled degrees of military success, and I don't really buy into the idea that the Mexica's exceptional need of sacrifices (which again, I'm not even sure we can say was a thing in isolation) was the main cause of their systemic militarism:

Contrary to what people often talk about, getting economic goods as taxes was a much, much bigger part of their motive for expansion then getting captives for sacrifices were (which they usually didn't even demand as taxes/tribute: they mostly got them DURING conquests, not from places they already conquered), and all the times I've tried to chase citations on the idea that they played up the need of sacrifices to justify expansionism or that their need of it was the cause, I've found the actual root source to not actually be making those claims outside of like in relation to trying to conquer or get captives from Tlaxcala and their allies specifically...

>>716287112
Oh, the back ornaments? I mean maybe? That one's size is exaggerated for style though, the actual drum banners we see in codices aren't that big. The umbrella looking ones did get that large though. Spanish sources claimed they were affixed to the backframe in such a way they weren't impeding but they also claim Macuahuitl could slice man in two down the middle and their armor was nigh impenetrable so there's a degree of romanticism there

6/?

>>716279627 (OP)
I think it's mainly because is so different from European aesthetics that most developers would struggle with translating it to modern audiences. It's not like Chinese or Japanese culture where there wasn't really an "interruption" and they had time to adapt aspects of their cultural exports to the rest of the world. That is to say which parts they can embellish and which ones to omit. Or the Egyptians where they influenced the Greeks and thus the Romans so it's not that alien.
Mesoamerican cultures, on the other hand, while not gone had been significantly shrunk due to the pressure of assimilation, coming from both the Spanish and the Mexican governments, so the direct descendants cling to what little is left and remain stuck in the past as a consequence.

I vaguely remember some stupid controversy about some indie game where you played as an Aztec during the Spanish conquest, and then I think they said you'd be able to play as a Spaniard too or something and people got mad? It was awhile ago and I don't remember the details.
Does anybody else remember this and what it was called? What became of it?

>>716282325
the aztec empire arose in the aftermath of the total collapse of the mayan empire, which we still don't know why collapsed. maybe it was something really horrific that embedded itself in the aztec's zeitgeist.

>>716281494
>>716284939
i have to admit that jaguar suit looks kinda dope
would be neat to see a mc with that kind of outfit
its a shame devs these days do very little in depth research to find cool shit like that due to time limitations

>>716285440
Old School Runescape added a meso-themed area and you can get dual maccas as a boss weapon.

>>716283218
The closest I've ever seen to that idea actually looking good and not like a dude wearing jaguar patterned pajamas is Xbalanque from Smite.

>>716279627 (OP)
NuMK has an Aztec themed character

>>716287630
>>716281794
>or get captives from Tlaxcala and their allies specifically...
cont:

Maybe there's something to there being a feedback loop of doing military expansion and that resulting in more captives and there being an incentive to maintain or exceed that amount of captives, especially since flaunting big sacrifice ceremonies to visiting kings was part of intimidating them to court them into becoming voluntary vassals or allies (as was wine-and-dining them with lavish gardens and palaces and feasts, offering political marriages, etc: This is the real reason Cortes was let into Tenochtitlan, not that he was mistaken for a god by Moctezuma: Cortes himself explictly says he wasn't), but ultimately it's hard to say that any other city clearly wouldn't or couldn't have done the same thing

There's other relevant stuff but I'll stop there

>>716287312
You'll be happy to know that that image is accurate, aside from that the Dr. ME smith isn't sure if the roofs would have been triangular or flat, and that on the maps, IIRC those show structures across all periods of occupation, so at any given point in the town's history not every single indicated structure would have still been standing or built yet

Smith has a book called "At Home with the Aztecs" about his excavations of it and other smaller or more rural sites, plus if you use the waybackmachine on some of his ASU publication pages you can read the excavation reports

>>716287705
Aztec Ecumene, it looked dogshit. They've started to advertise it again lately and they did "improve" it, but it went from like a -150 to a -50.. But realistically their entire game concept was fundamentally at odds with a authentic handling of the setting so there's only so much they could do even if they really tried. DESU I feel bad for them

>>716287540
Yes, Mossacannibalis, his Mesoamerican stuff is generally great, pic has some examples, tho there's controversies lately with him doing guro loli stuff based on real rapes

7/?

>>716282325
Any really good history book that covers all of this shit? Sounds metal as fuck.

>>716279627 (OP)
For me it's the lizards

>>716279627 (OP)
Nobody cares about the Aztecs

>>716288312
cont:

>>716281757
>>716280503
In my experience, nobody, be it mexicans/guatemalans, white people, or japanese devs, or or be it left wing or right wing people, actually give much of a shit about handling Mesoamerica well. Most of them simply don't even know better to realize most media depictions are super off, I've seen plenty of interviews with lefty people claiming to be handling it "respectfully" and it's still generic stereotypical stuff that people would find offensive for any other cultural group, or they'll try to debunk right wingers (who in turn are just posting misinfo, knowingly or not, about Mesoamerica to tie into modern culture war race nonsense) but don't actually even realize that the info they're trying to respond to is wrong and instead just go "but the spanish were just as bad/worse!" (which to be clear I don't have a real opinion on or give a shit about either way: It's fine if you think the Aztec were worse as long as you're basing that assessment off accurate information)

The only people who care are nerds and academics, though i'd say over the past 8ish years we've increasingly seen more projects actually be decently well researched, and to be honest I think that's at least in part due to my friend group obsessively posting info and better artistic reconstructions on every online platform possible

On that note please watch the upcoming Aztec Batman movie (pic), and buy/read Codex Black, >>716280949 etc. All are upcoming or ongoing releases that are well done.

>>716282325
>The national instrument is a whistle used in rituals that makes blood-curdling screams

The idea of the whistles making screaming sounds is mostly bullshit (also IDK even what a "national instrument" would mean in the context of Mesoamerican civilizations, that wasn't a concept they had). I've never seen an academic source make that claim until a recent paper which only referenced it within the context of alluding to said online rumors.

8/?

>>716283720
Kill all apologists.

>>716279627 (OP)
The "culture" of violent brown savages who ritually sacrificed millions of their own people and couldn't even figure out how to invent wheels don't have anything to bring to the table.

>>716288502
>>716282325
>..within the context of alluding to said online rumors...
cont:

The acoustics analysis it did does draw some comparisons to the sound profile of the whistles tested to human vocalizations but it's not clear to me it means screaming specifically and other comparisons to other instruments had a stronger correlation, but admittedly I don't know enough about auditory stuff to really wrap my head around the paper.

There's also no evidence they were used in battle as far as I can tell, at best I think people got mixed up with Bernal Diaz talking about soldiers doing "whistles" in battles alongside chants and using conch trumpets, but in context he seems to be meaning, like, whistling with your mouth/lips, not whistle devices, which he specifies only more explicitly in the context of use in sacrifices/rituals as you admittedly also specify.

There is one person a friend of a friend of a friend of mine knows who claims to have evidence for the screaming noises and use in battle maybe but I'm skeptical and haven't had time to ask them about it yet...

>>716288125
see
>>716284939 and pic related. Again, maybe not your typical idea of something "cool", but they're not AS goofy or caveman looking as the way most media depicts it. Xblanque from Smite reminds me of Ocelotl from For Honor, but worse: Ocelotl's default outfit with a few tweaks (some of which are major but wouldn't change his silhouette much: Make the jaguar suit feather mosaic, get rid of the open portions that show his skin on the limbs, it's a full body tailored suit not a skinned hide tied around him; make the helmet actually wood, feather mosaic, and metal/gemstone, and with the one arm/shoulder that has the warsuit torn off, show a ichcahuipilli gambeson beneath) could be decent, but Xblanque has most of the same issues and with extra fantastical shit thrown in, and with less authentic details. But he's also a Maya demigod rather then an Aztec soldier.

9/?

>>716288815
No one gives a fuck dude

I appreciate your effort Aztecanon.

>>716288837
I like History so I appreciate his efforts.

>>716288815
>>716282325
>but I'm skeptical and haven't had time to ask them about it yet...
cont:

>The death toll nearing 20,000 sacrifices a year across the empire.

20,000 is a plausible estimate, maybe even too low, but the actual source of this figure people post around is nonsense with terrible methodology (Zumarraga pulling it out of his ass, who was the grand inquisitor in Mexico at the time and as such both had a bias and didn't even work with native sources like Sahagun or Duran did. way say Sahagun or Duran did. He also said 20,000 CHILD sacrifices a year, which is silly, and he was likely talking about more then just the Aztec Empire but maybe everything west of Maya regions)

It's also not really a meaningful figure because there wasn't a sacrificial "quota": Whatever sacrifices X or Y state, province, city, town etc in the "empire" did would have been whatever their local practices dictated, at most there would have been some coordination between a local city-state and adjacent towns/villages, MAYBE for important festivals where one city invited kings from another city to attend there would have been some captive sharing. It's less akin to asking "how many people does the United States execute a year", which implies some level of collective organization, and more akin to "How many cows did all of Ancient Greek civilization and their different city-states sacrifice a year", but even the latter isn't a perfect comparison because the "Aztec Empire" included non "Aztec"/Nahua states, and not all Nahua states were actually inside that "Empire"...

>>716288163
Kotal's visually nonsense but thematically he's a decent adaptation of Huitzliopotchli, with the war, sun, and blood variations, his sickles being an adaptation of xiuhcoatl, and his personality actually being a shrewd politician when boone isn't making him job or be a dumbass. There's some neat nahuatl references in his gear name, movelist, and some of his dialog too.

10/?

>>716282325
What's the primary source for this stuff? Sounds kino as FUCK

>>716289083
>>716282325
>and not all Nahua states were actually inside that "Empire"...
Cont:

In general it's best to think of the Aztec Empire more of a network of different states, some of which were subjects, or voluntary vassals, or allies or one another, and just at the top of the network it all eventually led to Tenochtitlan and/or Texcoco and Tlalcopan (If they were collective capitals with Teno. just with the most power; if Teno. was a singular true capital, or if it's really 3 separate but intertwined "empires" is kinda debated)

Anyways, Tenochtitlan probably sacrificed a few hundred to a few thousand people a year (def not tens of thousands), based on the Great Skull Rack excavations (pic). Other cities and towns probably did many times less, but for both/all there's a lot of wiggle room

The rest of what you posted is mostly right: I'd nitpick and say the skull racks and towers weren't "just" skulls in that they also had mortar, stone, wooden poles, etc, and that I'm not quite sure about your exact description of the typical afterlife: Not all people went through Mictlan's layers and desu I get the layers mixed up with the ones from the Maya underworld. Ritual cannibalism was also a broader thing then just for Xochiquetzal, and I'm not familiar with cave sacrifices/burials to Tezcatlipoca

The big issues and nitpicks I already commented on aside, the greentext is just cherrypicked. You could make a similarly hardcore reading of Roman or Chinese society, or I could cherrypick a greentext that just talks about their amazing sanitation standards, great aqueducts and waterworks, lavish palaces, botanical gardens, venice-like canals, the value they placed on poetry and the arts and sciences, their judicial systems, how much they cherished their children and how even the Spanish praised and respected all of that and even their moral ethics and virtues: All of that info would be CORRECT, but I'd be excluding info about sacrifices, warfare, classism etc

11/?

>>716281494
Always appreciate you, Mesofag. Never stop posting

>>716282325
The bottom left pic feels very reminiscent of pic related

>>716281494
You're the guy who made the FGO aztec breakdown, ain'tcha? I admire the passion, keep up the good work.

>>716279689
So what? Japan just makes them instead.

>>716279627 (OP)
Sega loved the fuck out of the aztecs, olmecs Mixtex, an Zapowhatever the hell their names are.

A bunch of their games have that shit in the background.

>>716280589
>>716286648
No. Pic somewhat related.

If I remember a japanese thing I read back in the day, Talim's outfit is a mishmash of tribal and spanish. As in bits and pieces taken from spanish outfits. Like the poofy arms, separated from the normal dress, and the bottom being sort of underwear.

>>716281494
This anon would drink the water from the gardens at xochimilcho.

>>716281494
>Why does it have to be Mexicans etc making games about Mesoamerica?

We can't leave ALL that shit to the Japanese. What else are they going to make? Lucha? Soccer? Lucha Soccer?

>>716281494
Kids learn this stuff in grade school man unless you really think Hollywood has warped the perception of Central American societies in the past.

>>716288502
Japan mostly just wants to do cool shit. They don't have a historical boner for mesoamerica. Throw Tamtam and Chamcham into Samurai Showdown and call it a day.

Pic vaguely related. It's Hutzil.

>>716290674
Unfortunately, the latest movement of being antiracist means letting MECHA fuckers with no degreess or peer reviewed material write curriculum. That hasn't been good for the historicality.

>>716282325
Jesus Christ, no wonder why nigger cretins are getting the absolute obliterated SHIT kicked out of them. They have never seen this threat. Alfa jeans my ass when their pookies and rayrays are getting reamed by a more violent group of midgets.

>>716290981
This varies state by state if you live in the US. Personally the worst thing Ive seen is leaving no nuance or room for explanations during the period of the 1870s to 1940s.

>>716291086
The Jews are scrambling to deport Pacos for a reason. Their negro bitchfaggot pets are small time and small fry against them and will not be able to compete.

>>716279627 (OP)
No, you will consume generic Tolkien fantasy and enjoy it. Everything is either Greek, Norse or Tolkien in fantasy because people know them. When you make your own Wukong then people might play it too.

>>716279627 (OP)
Its probably because SAs have the worst taste in video games imaginable and just make gaudy beat em ups with gameplay that misses the entire point of the source material. Additionally, mesoamericans left behind no great works of literature or art, like there is no Mesoamerican Homer or Plato, no one to author a Tale of Genji or Beowulf, it's not like the Spanish wiped out traces of this, they were unfortunately just a totally soulless and untalented peoples.

>>716289940
cont:

>>716289897
>>716282464
>>716282656
>>716282872
>>716283329
>>716284263
See the past 4 posts I did, starting in >>716288502 to >>716289940: The whistles making screaming noises is prob nonsense, and 20,000 sacrifices for "the empire" a year is actually maybe too low, but also not methodlogically sound, and it's just not categorically sensical to do "empire" wide sacrifice totals, along the other nitpicks I mentioned in the last post I did

And my final point about just it being cherrypicked: The average person's day to day life (desuarchive.org/his/thread/7617096/#7619771) wouldn't have interacted with or thought about most that stuff, and was pretty comparable to what commoners in Medieval Europe and I suspect China etc were doing. Even for priests sacrifices were relatively infrequent. Webm related is the typical day in Tenochtitlan (tho Moctezuma II having the big headdress is wrong).

Not even the Spanish considered Aztec society that metal: They compared them to the Greeks and Romans as civilized pagans. Bloodletting, and at times even ritual cannibalism and sacrifices were compared to stuff like communion and christ's sacrifice, the macabre imagery in their art (and they did depictions of flowers, birds, etc as much as skulls etc) was compared to skeletal depictions of mortality in Catholic art etc. I realize this prob just sounds like 'NUH UH" but I hope my autistic obsessive explanations in other posts, and my transparency in admitting that even 20k sacrifices for the whole "empire" is maybe too low, what I say to the anon below etc speaks to my intellectual honesty

>>716283720
This is wrong tho: Sacrificial burials of more then 100 people are RARE, but they existed. EX: the Great Skull Rack seems to have held 16,000 skulls. And yes, sacrifices tied into legit theology where it was a cosmic necessity, I think it's naive to say that, as in all religions, it wasn't twisted and leveraged towards political purposes.

12/?

>>716291086
>>716291334
It's that Aztec blood

>>716291573
You gotta take meds, dude

I don't give a shit about aztec larping. In fact I hate that aztec and Mexico is misrepresented to seem like the the entire country of Mexico was part of it, So I'm happy it's buried as shit. I don't have aztec blood and I'm "mexican".

>>716291482
It's rather strange and concerning that an empire as large as the Aztec never produced something like the Iliad. Something must have really been wrong with them.

>>716283720
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-find-brings-skulls-discovered-aztec-tower-over-600-180976543/
>Archaeologists excavating a famed Aztec “tower of skulls” in Mexico City have uncovered a new section featuring 119 human skulls. The find brings the total number of skulls featured in the late 15th-century structure, known as Huey Tzompantli, to more than 600, reports Hollie Silverman for CNN.

>Rossella Lorenzi at Seeker reports that the researchers believe the partially unearthed skull rack was built between 1485 and 1502, and ran 112 feet in length and stretched 40 feet wide. Parts of the skull rack were constructed by cementing skulls together to support the platform. The researchers believe that structure may have once contained up to 60,000 skulls.

Yah, they have found a few more then 100.

Age of empires 3

>>716291707
>t. murderous wetback psychopath

>>716291861
>tower of possibly 60k skulls
That's wild. And fools serously think of the spanish conquest as a "tragedy".

>>716291707
People, I think even some of the hardcore Aztec larping Mexicans seem to forget all the time that Mexico is actually a pretty big country. There was a lot going on there all through history.
Honestly I don't even know why Mexico as a state chose to latch onto Aztecs specifically as the culture it wanted to larp as the successor to when they have just as much of a claim to the Toltecs or the Mayans or even the Olmecs and plenty of other cultures. Why larp as the one the Spanish and all of their neighbors decided to gangrape?
Fuck you could argue the Mayans put up a better fight than the Aztecs did, why not pretend to be descended from them instead?

>an isolated culture with limited resources is advanced on it's own right
>get labeled as "savages" by the colonizers because they're different
Do crackers really?

>>716291573
cont:

>>716287153
>>716288360
>>716290028
>>716291086
and you anons also see what I said in >>716291573 just now re: the other anon's big greentext. The new anti spam rules prevented me from quoting all of you at once

>>716284542
>>716284263
>The Aztecs must have been truly despised
>They were. When it comes to 'States universally hated by all of their contemporaries' their only real competition is the Assyrians

As I stated at the bottom of >>716284939, and allude to in >716286931, >716287291 and >716289083 , the reality is that the Mexica of Tenochtitlan didn't actually impose sacrifices or even collect them as taxes: Their "Empire" was really more of a hands off hegemony where they demanded economic goods as taxes and other fairly basic obligations but otherwise left the cities they conquered or took on as voluntary vassals alone, though obviously there were exceptions where they were more hands on. There's some texts which suggest they had a reputation for being warlike from early on but them being expansionistic conquerors (which they absolutely were) is not the same thing as them being widely resented or oppressive.

Also keep in mind that sacrifice was a universal thing in Mesoamerica, as I mention in >>716286931 the Mexica and other Nahua groups actually came from the fringes of or just outside of Mesoamerica and likely would have adopted sacrificial rites from other existing Mesoamerican civilizations. The Mexica did sacrifices at greater scales, but few if any of their sacrificial practices were unique to them.

Most of the states that allied with Cortes did not do so because they resented the Mexica: Tlaxcala (pic) did, but it was an enemy state they were at war with, not an existing subject. Most of the others which did so like Texcoco, Xochimilco, Chalco, etc were mostly doing it out of opportunism or their own political ambitions after Tenochtitlan was already weak and vulnerable.

Again, see the link at the bottom of >716284939

13/?

>>716292095
Even today everything is centered around Mexico City even though "Mexico" is a "federation". I really hate it, but the text books have made people really think WE WUZ AZTECS and prohibited regionalism.

>>716291853
The Mayans had huge libraries of books that they made with tree barks, but they were subsequently destroyed when the Spanish started an Inquisition on the Central American natives. The only thing left was the Mayan calendar text, so we may never actually know the extent of knowledge and stories we have lost.

Funnily enough, the way we translate Mayan ruins today is through the Inquisitor's logbook, in which he wrote down the Lexicon of the Mayan alphabet.

>The Aztec weren't that bad dude
>The Mongols weren't that bad dude
I'm tired of modern """historians""" they're all apologist cucks.

>>716292368
Aztecs were unimpressive. Mongols at least created the largest contiguous land empire in history. That's pretty based.

>>716292501
I too, believe that the Mongols were based.

>>716292282
>The Mayans had huge libraries of books that they made with tree barks
Library does not equate with literature. The Iliad was specifically mentioned because it was originally an unwritten oral tradition. These were largely unironically codices about what tamales to eat during the ritual bloodlettings, it's incredibly dishonest to pretend otherwise.

expeditions: conquistador
about to replay it

>>716292589
I'm willing to BET your bitchass actively laments the destruction of the library of Alexandria you disingenuous, cherrypicking little TWAT

>>716291573
>>716288502
>>716288815
I thought they found some whole ehecachichtli or howver the fuck you spell it in the 1990s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI

>>716292706
There is nothing to cherry pick, multiple codexes have survived from the Maya and it's not anything advanced enough to have value. These are literally a group of people who had completely stagnated and lived like retarded animals.

>>716290569
>Lucha Soccer?
They should. That sounds sick.

>>716292545
There's something hilarious about the fact that a tiny bunch of backwards steppe nomads from the ass end of the world basically just decided one day to go out and conquer the known world, essentially just because it seemed like the thing to do at the time.
Just a bunch of fun lads going out and having a great time

>>716292368
You forgot being an Ottoman apologist as well, they were notoriously tolerant (taking children as slaves to be used as soldiers in upcoming wars against their countrymen and neighbors)

>>716292969
I don't read about sandniggers because sandniggers aren't interesting to me.

>>716292881
>EL GUAPO PAST THE WING DEFENDER, CENTERING CROSS TO CAPTAIN PERRO.
>DIVING HEADER, AND A SPRINGBOARD PLANCHA INTO A HURICANRANA BY EL JEFFE. AND CLEARED. WHAT A SAVE.

>>716292191
cont:

>>716292036
>>716291861
I mention the Huey Tzompantli/Great Skull rack excavations in >>716291573 and >>716289940. It's big, but it absolutely did not hold 60,000 skulls: I've read through basically every media report and official INAH press release about the rack, and they don't give total skulls count estimates for the whole structure. There is ONE article (https://eleconomista.com.mx/arteseideas/Gran-Tzompantli-de-Tenochtitlan-una-leccion-ideologica-20181114-0143.html) that claims that it held 11,700 skulls, but it doesn't specify it that's based on the findings or a nonspecified historical account.

What the reports do give though is the dimensions of the rack and some of the pole spacings, placements, and diameters, and from that you can estimate it's size: The rack* is 34-36 meters long, 12-14 meters wide, and 4-5 meters tall, and there's a 25cm posthole every 80cm. Me and one of my friends did an initial bunch of math just based on the dimensions without the pole values, where we plugged the dimensions into tables that a previous research paper (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229761556_Counting_Skulls_Comment_on_the_Aztec_Cannibalism_Theory_of_Harner-Harris) did which calculates the per cubic meter skull density racks of different sizes could hold

In some past posts, I've said that brought me to also around a roughly 11,700 skull total which seemed to neatly align with the figure from the one article, but we re-ran our math and apparently that previous number crunching session had errors, with our new totals being a roughly 13,000 to 24,000 skull range based on a few variables. That was then further narrowed down when another friend came across the pole spacing and size values in this paper: and that friend ran some math (which is DESU above my head to fully explain or to give you the margin of error of) that accounted for those values which came out to around 16,000 skulls.

14/?

>>716292501
They had a surprisingly massive savage civilization with a capital that eclipsed Paris at the time, built in the middle of a lake.
The Aztecs were an enigma being the youngest civilization in the world while supporting a shitton of people in a seemingly inhospitable region of mountains and untamed jungle.
I think they're interesting.

>>716292921
>backwards
>most advanced logistics of the time, technologically advanced due to being so intertwined with the silk road and had access to Chinese siege warfare
Huh? This isn't even the first time this happened, it's like the Yuezhi/Kushan nomads in China. (see yotwana in the kingdom manga)

>>716292368
>unironically believes there is le bad and le good on history
Peak npc

>>716292501
The Aztecs are more impressive than the Mongols because they actually built something. The Mongols just demanded tribute from the people they conquered and then imploded.

>>716293349
That's pretty innacurate, their city was in a valley, it was the Inca that lived in the mountains. And as far as I know they didn't quite get to the jungle, those were the Maya that thrived in the central american jungle.

>>716293521
Why is it that SAs post so much cancerous and unfunny reddit memes

>>716283608
Bummer
:(

>>716293583
That's because the Mongols never set out to create an empire. The real empire was the friends they made along the way. Then they all went home with a newfound respect for eachother.
The end.

>ummm actually all these depictions that make them look bad are wrong and these highly idealized depictions are authentic

>>716293583
I will commend the Aztecs for building without the aid of beasts of burden but pissing off everyone around you isnt smart either.

>>716293583
>more impressive than the Mongols because they actually built something
They brought peace to all of Eurasia for over a hundred years and facilitated a level of trade and cultural/technological diffusion that hasn't been seen since like, I dunno, ancient Roman empire times. They're arguably the catalyst for the Renaissance.

>>716293748

>>716293443
And before Genghis united them they were squabbling tribes who were at best a minor nuisance to their immediate neighbors. Honestly it seems pretty weird that steppe nomads from that portion of the world seem to have weird cycles of just randomly deciding to expand far outward from their traditional homes and cause all kinds world changing chaos and upheaval in the process. Why do they do this? Should we be worried about them doing it again?
Is Mongolia going to be the most powerful country on earth within the next 200 years? All evidence points to yes

>>716293965
>They brought peace to all of Eurasia for over a hundred years and facilitated a level of trade and cultural/technological diffusion that hasn't been seen since like, I dunno, ancient Roman empire times
Why would you lie so brazenly?
>They're arguably the catalyst for the Renaissance.
How so?

What did conquistadors feed their horses in America? Can horses eat corn?

>>716282667
nta, but mesoamerican history is fucking cool and insane. the mexica (what the aztecs are known as prior to discovering the aztec empire) were originally from the land of aztlan seeking a new home. when they had arrived to and were welcomed in by a tribe to stay, they did a party for their new kind friends who let them in. what the (if i can remember correctly) the priest of the mexica did was skin the princess of that tribe and wear her skin in the ceremony. and they were chased out.

>>716293085
The defenders or gk could risk it all and slam attacking players, you could grab the goalpost and literally move it, shit could be sick

>>716294093
>Why would you lie so brazenly?
How is Pax Mongolica a lie? That's an actual thing that happened and it led to massive economic booms all over the place.

>>716294130
Just grass

I had no idea this one anon existed.
Cool find.
If you're still here, anon, anything you can tell me about these dudes?

>>sacrifice thousands for Tonatiuh during eclipses so the skeletal star devils don't descend and eat everyone

>They were pretty freaky, they called them the Tzitzimime. Massive spooky astral skeletons with glazed-over eyes, stars for joints, and eagle talons for hands and feet. They wore human hands and organs as jewelry. Women prayed to them for help during childbirth, and the souls of women who died in childbirth could become them. They also occasionally swooped down at night to tear apart wayward children and pregnant women, and they could be heard in advance by the rattling sound of their shell skirts. Usually they just waited menacingly in the night sky for their chance to invade earth, either during eclipses or once every 52 years when the world threatened to come apart. To prevent this from happening and connect the ages together the Aztecs performed the New Fire ceremony. The night before the 52 years were up everyone in the valley of Mexico put out their fires so everything was bathed in darkness. Everyone was anxious that the sun wouldn't reappear and they'd all be eaten by the figures in the stars above, but they looked to the top Mount Huizachtlan for hope. There the priests of Huehueteotl cut out a man's heart and placed some sticks in the cavity. They rubbed the sticks together vigorously until they produced a flame, which they used to create a bonfire that would be used to relight the whole valley and renew the world and keep the Tzitzimime at bay for at least another 52 years.

I've always liked the concept of this stuff a lot when I first read about them all those years ago.

>>716290104
Longshot, but got a link handy for that?

>>716294174
You said they brought peace to all of Eurasia, which is this area.

>>716294091
like anything, it's due to climate cycles

>>716294184
But stable fed horses are too big to just eat grass. They need better nutrition.

>>716294261
is there any evidence the mongol empire was caused by climate change or is that just some current year bullshit

>>716294258
They covered all the parts that had anything of value, yes. This is a fairly large stretch of territory, wouldn't you say?

>>716294350
>They covered all the parts that had anything of value, yes.
Clearly not, as they are missing all of India, South East Asia, and most of Europe and the MENA region.
>This is a fairly large stretch of territory, wouldn't you say?
Yes, but that's completely irrelevant to your original claim.

>>716291482
>Additionally, mesoamericans left behind no great works of literature or art
There's the Popol Vuh by the Mayans and the poems of Nezahualcoyotl on the Aztects' side. The other cultures also had their own heroic tales, some even about their victory over the Aztecs. They did write and compose music as well as pottery. The reason not many of their works are known is simply because most of it was destroyed.

>White conquerors
>>>Based, and trad and masculine and intelligent and cultured and won their empire by sheer determination and will and skill
>Conquerors from literally any other race
>Stupid, smelly, backwards retards who got lucky

I hate you retarded faggot "internet historians" so fucking much.

>>716294447
>Clearly not, as they are missing all of India, South East Asia, and most of Europe and the MENA region.
It's not though because it's facilitating the silk road trade between those places, they seized the entire core of Eurasia. You don't understand how geopolitics work.

>>716293341
>>716292036
>>716291861
cont:

For the 60k figure to be valid, you'd have to go with the absolute highest end variables that the Counting Skulls/Cubic Density paper I linked accounts for, and the excavations show the rack's actual dimensions and pole values are smaller then that. It holding 60k skulls is just straight up disproven

I did put a * next to the word "rack" last post tho, for two reasons: The first is that IIRC it's unclear if the dimensions I gave for the rack's area is actually for the rack itself, or the PLATFORM the rack was on,: If the latter, then the rack was even smaller. Conversely, all of the numbers I've gone over are for the /rack/, not the two cylindrical towers flanking it: those probably had a few thousand extra skulls but i'm kinda pulling "a few thousand" out my ass there, based on some infographs showing a fraction of one of the tower holding the ~600 excavated skulls from one of the towers many articles talk abou, but I don't know if those graphics are actually showing the exact portion of the tower in question and if you can extrapolate from that or not: maybe they're just showing a arbitrary portion for the sake of the graphic?

Additionally, a lot of the wording in various reports implies that the tower height as shown in >>716289940 is a minimum, so they may have been taller. Some articles even imply that the height of the rack itself isn't as known for sure as the width and length. So maybe the entire rack + tower combo had more like 20,000 or 30,000 skulls. But 60k is out of the question.

>>716290104
Probably not, can you link it? I and my friend group have only done very short Fate breakdowns since we (well, most of us) only think the Ocelomeh are decently done, see pic

>>716293916
see
>>716281494
>>716284939
Tell me what stuff you think in the depictions I've said are inaccurate are actually accurate, or what stuff in the ones I've said are accurate you think isn't. I'll back up my perspective with proof.

15/?

>>716294350
I like to imagine they avoided India on purpose. Like even the Mongols didn't think they were worth the trouble

>>716294489
>Popol Vuh
You think this is comparable to the Iliad?

>>716290438
>No. Pic somewhat related.
>Angkor Wat
lol what that is explicitly Indian influenced

>>716294525
They did not control or bring peace to all of Eurasia. If you wanted to say that they controlled the Silk Road then you should have said so instead of making other shit up.

>>716294491
what are you even on about? there are literally people talking about how impressive the mongol empire was right now. are mongols white conquerors?

>>716294693
Sounds like your cognitive dissonance is kicking in and your ass is starting to get a bit chapped here, if I'm being honest. You're being totally illogical and throwing a bit of a tantrum.

>>716286648
>>716290438
>No. Pic somewhat related.
>Angkor Wat
lol what South East Asian architecture is explicitly Indian influenced
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_architecture

>>716294491
It's funnier when spaniards or romans are considered white or not depending on the larper

>>716294585
I specifically replied to the claim that they left behind no great works of art. Are the ones I mentioned their Iliad? Hard to know since we don't have everything but I'll say that those count as great works of art.

>>716295238
>I'll say that those count as great works of art.
How lol

>>716295296
Why not?

>>716295484
Why not isn't the question to ask, you don't get a participation award for existing.

>>716295567
You dismiss them so I assume you have read them so I want to know the reason why they don't count.

>>716294540
cont:

>>716292368
>>716293583
>>716292501
Define "weren't that bad"

The Mexica of Tenochtitlan were expansionistic conquerors who made military campaigns a key part of their economic and political authority and masculine ideal. They also sacrificed 100s to 1000s people a year, and they were pretty classist and executed people for relatively minor crimes

But they also weren't a bloodthirsty dystopia: Most people went about their day eating meals with family, working in farms or workshops, visiting markets, and playing/betting on games. You had merchants, artists, diplomats, doctors etc. There was a formal judicial system with courts and judges. There were aqueducts, bathes, and toilets. Nobles valued poetry, public speaking and botanical sciences, and they mostly left the places they conquered to still self-rule

Again, as stated in >>716291573 and >>716289940, even the Spanish repeatedly praised their cities (pic), art, architecture, social order, laws, ethics, and intellect

IMO they're comparable but not exceptionally worse to other expansionistic military empires in history, and/or ones that did a lot of holy wars or religious killings

The mongols aren't my area but based on my high school taught knowledge of them: Both they and the Mexica are kinda similar in they'd both stroll up and go "become our subject and pay up or else" (tho there's subject vs vassal nuances I'm skipping over here for the Mexica) and if you did, you got left alone to mostly self manage, but 1. My impression is the Mexica weren't AS hands off as the Mongols even if they still mostly were and 2. the Mongols afaik almost always razed cities who refused while the Mexica only infrequently did, just invading to then force them to submit but still being hands off after, they actually often had to re-conquer cities multiple times since their loose rule meant a subject could just secede every once in a while until the Mexica put their foot down

>>716293948
see
>>716292191

16/?

>>716294769
>Sounds like your cognitive dissonance is kicking in and your ass is starting to get a bit chapped here, if I'm being honest. You're being totally illogical and throwing a bit of a tantrum.
Are you just throwing buzzwords around now? You lied for no good reason. I don't understand why you can't just own up to it instead of doing whatever it is you're trying to do.

>>716295661
What is the value? Compare this to the book of dead or elusian mysteries and you can see their culture is not advanced as some people pretend it was and its stuff even the most basic backwater civilations had.

>Aztec vs Mongol arguing between some history autist dumping walls of text in a board about video games
never change /v/

>>716296049
>some history autist
It's more like yakubian fan fiction.

>>716296049
This has nothing to do with videogames anymore but it's still the most interesting thread on /v/ right now.

>>716279627 (OP)
The ancient Mayans were cooler and weren't nowhere near as bloodthirsty like the Aztecs

>>716296075
but enough about indian history

>>716294489
>The reason not many of their works are known is simply because most of it was destroyed.
This is simply wrong, we still have the creation myths of the Iroquois today because they were passed down orally, these things don't simply dissappear, and obviously on the part of the Iroquois their mythology and culture is far more iconic and advanced, and greatly influenced American literature and even political structure, from Melville to federalism, whereas the mesoamerican gifts to their successors are largely cartel violence and occult.

>>716295902
>What is the value?
Same as any other work of art be it "lesser" or "greater"? Granted, the Popol Vuh was conceived more as a way to communicate their vision of the world to the next generation rather than as a "perfomative" art but it does have artistry behind it and not just in a "participation award" kind of way it is a greater than life kind of tale, although perhaps not as wordy as the other well known works.

>>716295749
cont:

>>716289897
As I mentioned some of their info is wrong and/or cherrypicked, but there's dozens to a few hundred prehispanic, 16th and 17th century sources on the Aztec. It's just a lot haven't been translated from Nahuatl or Spanish into english. One of the largest though and easiest to access is the Florentine Codex, which is a 12 volume collection of stuff on all aspects of Mexica society from gods, holidays, rituals, daily life, occupations, crafts, clothing, merchantry, public speeches and ethics, natural history, their views of Mesoamerican civilizations etc. There's high res scans, and multiple searchable translations for free here: https://florentinecodex.getty.edu

Just keep in mind that this was still written a few decades after contact, under Spanish supervision, so some things have errors or biases. EX: book 12 mentions stuff about Cortes's arrival being prophesied and him being mistaken as a god and that's nonsense

Pic related is an excerpt about the primary sacrifice (of Tezcatlipoca's deity impersonator) for the festival of Toxcatl, this is a fun example because it shows how obsessively specific picking sacrifice victims was and they weren't just dragging just anybody to an altar, and how the victim (at least for deity impersonators, "generic" sacrifices less so) had a bunch of specific duties, rituals, and tasks to do as part of their sacrifice that some degree of cooperation would have been necessary for, though as you can see in the text there were also guards around to keep them compliant, to a degree.

>>716296075
As I've said many, many times in the thread, post what you think is wrong I've said and I'll back it up. I linked formal academic papers in >>716293341 for example.

>>716292095
>>716291707
>>716292261
You're not gonna get media about the Purepecha, Zoque, Mixe, Chatinos etc without more Aztec media first, sadly.

17/?

>>716296075
can you prove him wrong tho????

>>716296657
cont:

>>716294130
I don't know the answer to this off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure Cortes, Bernal Diaz, Andes de Tapia, the Anonymous Conqueror, Aguilar, etc mention it

>>716294248
The greentext you posted pretty much covers the basics and what i'd have said, honestly, aside from the fact that thousands of people weren't being sacrificed during the New Fire Ceremony, probably, unless you're talking about across like hundreds/thousands of cities and towns but see >>716289083

The main caveat i'd add off the top of my head is that the mouthed/eyed joints and taloned feet/hands are broader iconography associated with destructive goddesses or to a lesser extent death deities: Compare the Tzitzimime to the Cihuateteo (who are the ones women who died in childbirth could become), to feminine forms of Tlaltecuhtli, Itzpapalotl, etc. I also known that "Tzitzimime" is more a class of beings then a specific type of spirit, like Itzpaplotl is the "queen" of the Tzitzimime, and the Cihuateteo I assume(?) are some as well.

I'm unsure if Tlaltecuhtli was one, but she was also an earth goddess (and equated to the earth monster cipactli) and through Tlaltecuhtli you can also draw comparisons to the earth/mother goddess Coatlicue who also is sometimes depicted with destructive goddess features, see pic (notice also using serpent heads as a representation of blood streams here, like the rattlesnake coming out of the tzitzimitl's groin in your pic: either a phallus or a representation of menstruall blood)

In general Aztec gods often had their identities and aspects "flow" into one another (Tzitzimime to Tlatecuhtli to Coatlicue, and then to say Toci etc; or from the maize goddess Chicomecoatl to her irrigation goddess aspect Xilonen, who is also an aspect of the river/lake goddess Chalchiuhtlicue, as another example). There's a lot of debate in general about what being a "god" even means in Aztec theology or if they even had "gods" as concepts precisely

18/?

incredible thread

Aztecs need to kick some ass!

Mesoamerican infodumping anon here, I am starting to get tired and I still have other shit I need to do before I sleep, I am gonna try to wrap up soon

Are there any posts I have not responded to yet people want me to address beyond the two anons arguing about if the Mesoamericans had any great works of literature? That's one of the last things I have on my to-respond-to-list

(see filename for comic name/info)

>>716297890
did they have hot bitches?

>>716294540
Yeah that pic is what I was referring to.

>>716279627 (OP)
>start game
>get sick and die
Wow so much fun

>>716297890
Kill yourself noble savage lover

>>716297890
How cute were native girls pre racemixing?

>>716294091
She cute, let me join the horde pls

>>716299687
can you throat sing?

>>716299462
Chel™ and Kida™
As soon as my eyes gazed upon them, it was the first time I felt a tingling in my pp.
My taste in women is basically this, but I've never been able to find anyone just like them. Where do I need to go to find my kween b/ros?

>>716300149
South America, just be sure to be white.
Also try not to get tortured to death. Maybe avoid Mexico at the very least. Aztec descendants are the worst.

>>716299757
I can burp at will, must be the same principle I guess

>>716281494
Always on the job anon.

>>716300226
close enough. welcome to the horde!

>>716292501
I've always wondered if the term "Mongoloid" being used towards fucking retards and downies, came up as pure coping and seething towards these guys.
Yes downies have that "asian" look, but why no one calls them "chinkoids", "gooktards", "indoniroaches", and so on...

Anyhow, those madlads absolutely kicked ass.

>>716299462
They all looked like Chel. Every single one of them. They all had pillowy DSL's and huge hips and fat asses and delicious brown skin and they also went around wearing nothing but loincloths and you will never, ever experience women like that, because they're all gone. Lost to the sands of time.

>>716292368
Cry harder faggot KEK

>>716300632
It's so unfair!

What was his problem?

>>716302424
>Gets laughed at by sorceresses
>Proceeds to fuck them right after
holy shit what a chad

>>716302424
>Huemac then had sex with these sorceresses.
It being stated so matter-of-factly kills me every
time.
Also the fact that is just how that particular plot point is brought up and resolved is so hilariously pointless. They made fun of him and then he banged them, the end.
10/10 makes me kek evrytiem

Reminder the Mesoamericans mogged Catholicism at their own game

>>716302424
Divided by an ocean yet blood brothers.

>>716284737
see
>>716286648

Meso game suggestions there

Fuck that noise, give me ancient sumer/babylon/assyria games

>>716307395
Ancient era is woefully unrepresented in general which is kind of crazy.

>>716288312
>tho there's controversies lately with him doing guro loli stuff based on real rapes
Damn, I didn't know that he was this deranged.

>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295661
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
Okay I'm gonna half-ass this because I need to do other things... but by "half-ass" I mean do an unfiltered dump where I mention everything that comes to mind without either trying to trim it down/being concise, so this doesn't mean it'll be short (though neither w without trying to trim it down and trying to think of everything, not necessarily being short.

The Mesoamericans definitely and inarguably had intellectual achievements and works, though how "complex" these were is obviously gonna be subjective and is subject to both some debate, as is if it counts as "literature" or "philosophy" in a strict sense is also kinda debatable depending on how you define those terms.

They absolutely had books: They made both screenfold (a single long page folded over itself like an accordion) and lienzo (single big sheets) documents made from paper or deerskin, and Spanish sources clearly identify these as books or manuscripts in the same manner as their own. As far as their writing, I defer to https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/403pkw/why_did_mayan_writing_not_become_broadly_adopted/cys0f39/ but in short: The Maya script was unambiguously a true written language in the strictest sense of the term, but other Mesoamerican script like Epi-Olmec or Zapotec range from being arguably or nearly-but-not-quite so, and lack specific features, while on the other end of the spectrum, Aztec and Mixtec writing is mostly pictographic, though they, especially Aztec, still has a decent amount of phonetic puns and other elements, and in fact CAN be used to write out complete sentences as a true written language, in practice it was just never used to that extent.

19/?

>>716279627 (OP)
Where were these impressive-looking warriors when a few hundred whites conquered the entire South American continent in less than 50 years?

>>716291573
>Moctezuma II having the big headdress is wrong
So does pic rel even go on the head or is it more of a banner?

>>716294258
>Europe is just a part of Asia.
I knew Europeasants were bugs,

>>716309480
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont

Codices from Central Mexico and Oaxaca tended to be dynastic/political records (conquests, birth/deaths of rulers, alliances and political marriages; these could also include stylized maps showing migrations and could record more general histories in a mnemonic way); tax records, and astrological/divinatory documents. There's early colonial codices that have cenuses, detailed/realistic land surveys, and botanical/medical documents (I'll touch on this more below): You can argue if these categories of codices existed pre-contact or not

Even tho the Maya script was used to write full sentences, I don't think Maya books deviated much from those topic or formats: The 4 surviving Maya codices mostly fit into the divinatory model, and most inscriptions in stone monuments in turn fit into the dynastic record ones, often also mixing in cyclical mythological events and histories with real political records (some of these can get kind of crazy, inscriptions at Quirigua calculate mythical dates and events back to hundreds of millions of years): They're written out in full sentences but are often done in a rather dry "on X date Y thing happened" format. (also kings proclaiming their deeds, asserting political claims from ancestors or family, or are crediting themselves as the sponsors of monuments or buildings, we have artist signatures too). Admittedly, though, Maya literature isn't really something I've looked into much, thoug

Which is also why I can't comment much on the comparison between the Popol Vuh and Iliad: If what you said about the latter is true then they seem similar, both being longstanding oral narrative (there's depictions of content from the Popol vuh dating 1000 years prior) that was then written down. I know that there are proper lyrical elements to it, but I don't know enough about Maya poetry even in loose terms to comment

20/?

Iberian bros respect those who has chicharrón on their menu

>>716300149
>m. Where do I need to go to find my kween b/ros?
Sorry, the president of United States deported them all, now you have to go to Southern America, to Colombia or Brasil.

>>716310697
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont:

I can speak more to Aztec poetry. Classical Nahuatl was a very lyrical language and had different class based dialects: The speech of nobles, kings, in diplomatic contexts etc increasingly had more symbolism ladden flowery speech to the point where it could be unintelligible to commoners. There's specific lyrical conventions like Difrasismo (which are kinda like Kennings in old english), and what's mentioned here: nahuatlstudies.blogspot.com/2016/05/nahuatl-one-word-poems-guestblog-by-ben.html

Technically, afaik, Nahuatl "poems" are perhaps more akin to songs, in that they were meant to be accompanied by music, but they touched on philosophical and intellectual themes. I've also mentioned a few times that public speaking/oratorical performances were a big thing, we have numerous examples of kings preforming them to the public, nobles doing so in councils, senators in Tlaxcala to the senate or public, etc

An anon here brings up Nezahualcoyotl's poems, but I have to be a critic and intellectual honest here and say that Nezahualcoyotl's intellectual achievements are (to a degree) inflated: Much of what we have written about him comes from Fernando Alva Ixtlilxochtil, one of his descendants from the early colonial period, and he's clearly writing to glorify Texcoco's legacy and his dyansty to the Spanish, presenting it as an intellectual center in contrast to/over Tenochtitlan. I'll touch more on that further down but as it's relevant here, we don't know that any of the poems ascribed to him were actually written by him and they were probably not. But, the poems ascribed to him and other specific Aztec authors in surviving sources, while showing some Catholic religious influence, still retain a lot of Nahuatl conventions...

>>716310129
There were both headdress and banner versions, but even the former weren't "crowns", see pic

21/?

>>716279627 (OP)
>ctrl f guacamelee
>only 1 result
So it's true that modern /v/ doesn't play games.

>>716311345
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
>still retain a lot of Nahuatl conventions...

cont:

For example, this: https://www.reddit.com/r/nahuatl/comments/16axfgp/proof_that_this_famous_song_could_not_have_been/ is a more critical reading of one of the more famous poems ascribed to him: More "traditional" readings by say Miguel Leon Portilla (widely considered sort of the modern academic father of studying/viewing Nahuatl literature and religion through a more philosophical or intellectual lense, though many consider him to have been overly revisionist or whitewashing-y in some respects now) interpret it differently but even in this reading there's still clear thematic abstraction and philosophical/moral concepts being explored via allegory and metaphors, etc, it's just Nezahualcoyotl is the butt of the lesson rather then wisely giving them.

As I mentioned a lot of sources on Nezahualcoyotl glorify him and Texcoco: Fernando Ixtlilxochtil presents him as a sort of proto Christian that rejected human sacrifice and worshipped a monotheistic god, and that's bullshit. He presents him as being a legal codifier who made formal written laws and innovated legal and judicial system that then inspired the systems used by Tenochtitlan and other cities (tangential, but it's also worth noting here how say Tlaxcala had a formal senate, whose senators had to undergo public beatings and insults to prove their commitment to civil service, and then undergo legal and ethical training prior to taking office)...

>>716285440
Macuahuitl are cool but there's tons of other Mesoamerican weapons, see pic for a WIP collage we're working on. (well made) Macuahuitl also would not have been crude, the best documented surviving specimen was quite refined, had gold inlays, some likely had ornate engravings, etc.

22/?

>>716311684
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
>...prior to taking office)...

cont:

As I understand it the evidence of Texcoco having formal written laws, depending on how strictly you define that, is sketchy, though as I mentioned Aztec cities, or at least some of them, did have formal judicial systems with courts and judges (actually even a series of appellate courts)... but Nezahualcoyotl actually got his education in Tenochtitlan!...

He's credited as designing aqueduct, channel, pool, levee/dike and other waterworks systems in Texcoco, Tenochtitlan, Texcotzingo, Chapultepec etc, and I have heard these are likely to have actually been his inventions, though I don't know on what basis. I want to focus on more literary and lyrical achievements here but I'll say waterworks are some of the most consistently impressive instances of Mesoamerican engineering: They didn't understand mechanical fluid dynamics to the extent Greeks or Romans did, but many of their aqueduct, canal, channel, reservoir etc systems and their switching mechanisms were very impressive and extensive even by their standards. Again I'll direct people to some posts by one of the people I work on shit with: x.com/Majora__Z/status/1741889576124256449 and x.com/Majora__Z/status/1662266071993180160

Fernando Ixtlilxochtil extensively describes the royal library, see pic, though A: he describes this as the library or the palace, but he's really covering a lot of different structures within the broader central precinct of the city; B: there's tons of additional text and descriptions cut out here, and C: again Fernando is glorifying stuff, so take it with a grain of salt (EX: "philosopher" was probably not a distinct occupation or concept in the same way it was in the Greek sense of the term), though I will stress here that even Spanish sources make pretty similar claims and comparisons, I'll post some excerpts further down

23/?

>>716312938
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
Cont

The point about the destruction of Prehispanic books, knowledge, art, etc is also important. This is pretty inarguable and I think the anons here claiming that the idea it was all destroyed is just cope/an excuse to justify their lack of intellectual works is pretty fucking stupid: Spanish sources discuss large royal libraries as well and even explicitly point out that those newly arrived in Mexico from Europe are wrong to assume that the then current condition of Mesoamerican literature was representative of how it was during initial contact and that the mass destruction of native books and sources had an profound impact, and yet despite that that the Mesoamericans would make ideal converts to Christianity because of their intellect, skills etc, saying that they wished Spanish students were as savy

And if we're talking about visual art and architecture rather then intellectual works and literature then there's an even stupid larger amount of examples and Spanish sources praising those. For reference the San Jose shipwreck has over 200 tons of treasure worth over 17 billion dollars today, and there's dozens, if not hundreds of ships that brought material from Mexico to Europe, in some cases much of which was Mesoamerican jewelry, either as is or melted down and picked apart, we have full recorded inventories in some cases

Anyways, back to literature, as I said above, it's not like the libraries likely had written down poems or narrative epics, but we're talking about the destruction of likely thousands of books that held political and tax records, tangential information on myths and religion via divinatory document which often depicted or mentioned those things rather then just being astrology tables, and all of these those in combination probably did serve as mnemonic devices for other sorts of information, histories, narratives etc

24/?

>>716280747
>white people win 50 vs 50000: impressive
>white people lose 50 vs 50000 with a wallhack-tier K/D: still impressive

>>716312938
Do you also know more about other engineering works in the American continent by other cultures? I know that in the Andes they used something like a cable cars to go over cliffs.

>>716281494
I'll always respect this type of autism. Based as always, Aztec anon.

>>716313409
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
Cont:

I'd also bet that of some of the additional book categories I mentioned earlier (more detailed land surveys, cenuses, botanical documents, etc), at least botanical books were probably a thing: The Aztec intentionally experimented with different growing conditions and uses for plants in royal botanical gardens which also served to stock medical herbs, and there were huge industries of soaps, shampoos, body lotions, colognes, perfumes, toothpastes, breath fresheners etc produced from them. Multiple Spanish sources praised Aztec medicine and botany, including the literal personal royal physician and naturalist of Philip II who traveled to Mexico,

I don't have a segue for this, but at least Tenochtitlan had a public schooling system. There's some disagreement in certain sources over some of the specifics but essentially both boys and girls, of all social classes, likely had to attend schools: Boys vs Girls got slightly different lessons (boys had physical labor and martial lessons that for girls were replaced by lessons on domestic skills), and nobles went to more elite schools which gave additional lessons (more advanced math and more detailed history, medicine, natural history, poetry, public speaking, ethics, theology as opposed to basic religion), alongside there being some more specialized schools, but it's an example of how learning was valued. Spanish sources also, again, compare Aztec priests and their hierarchies and formal organization to Catholic ones, and similarly note their pursuit of intellectualism and having fleshed out theology and piety, even if it was to heathen practices...

>>716313765
Not in depth, but those does remind me of a relevant thing re: writing/intellectualism, which is that Mesoamerica also had quipu like knot devices for storing information, but there's very little info on the Mesoamerican ones

25/?

>>716281494
>authentic: anime

>>716279627 (OP)
play soulmask and SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU OCZACAN WORKER DRONE

>>716279627 (OP)
i love the hissho from endless space 2 and the combination of japanese bushido/aztec-mesoamerican culture, ist pretty kino

>>716314840
Why did you reply to me with a text wall that has nothing to do with what I said? Are you mentally retarded?

>>716314840
>that Mesoamerica also had quipu like knot devices for storing information, but there's very little info on the Mesoamerican ones
It should be more researched,

FF8 has got you covered

A meso-American soulslike could be cool

>>716279627 (OP)
I agree. If you could, how would you develop it?

>>716284939
>In fact, I recently compiled a 30+ page document with links to specific examples of surviving ruins or manuscript depictions of Aztec architecture, ruins and city planning elements from Tenochtitlan, or stuff from other civilizations with a similar architecture style of urban design elements
Please share.

>>716282656

>>716279627 (OP)
Bronze Age technology from 1500 BC
Wars barely better than monkeys with sticks and stones.
kek

>>716319149
Why do you keep replying to yourself

Someone post that quetzalcoalth tale when got mad because couldn't get fat asses

>>716281494
>right hand side is perfect for comfy city builders
make it happen

>>716284939
Seconding >>716319149 for hopefully requesting the doc. A friend is running a TTRPG game set in a mesoamerican inspired homebrewed setting. This thread has been great inspiration already.

>>716314840
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont:

And if we're counting historical or mythical narratives that were orally passed down and only later written down, then I don't see why stuff like the Codex Chimalpopoca, the Anales de Tlatelolco or the Crónica Mexicayotl can't be counted as works like the Illiad or Beowulf or the Popol Vuh, aside from the fact I am not sure how lyrical their Nahuatl prose is?

I can say more on Mesoamerican engineering, art, mathematics, etc which kinda ties into but again, I tried to focus more on literary style intellectual works. I'll finish by dumping quotes from Spanish and other European sources which touch on what I've gone over just to establish that they themselves were impressed by Mesoamerican intellectual practices

Diego Duran:
>So great were the...exploits of the Aztecs,...that those [unfamiliar]..will enjoy hearing of [them]...[they] are worthy of remembrance...it will be impossible to tell everything...[there are]...so many kingdoms, provinces, cities, [large towns and villages of different cultures and customs]...a single one...would [fill the studies of a] painstaking historian... [the feats of the Aztecs]... were achieved by courageous men...of fine and subtle intellect...[with]...outstanding skills...[foreigners like us Spaniards]...would have been pleased to observe these things...lose the bad and false opinion that these [Aztec] were barbarian and uncivilized...although they showed blindness...in their rites and idolatries, in matters of government and good order, submission and reverence, majesty and authority, courage and fortitude, I have found no one to surpass them...I want to point out...these things so the memory of these people will last forever

>>716316098
Posts 19 and onwards in my dump are all about Mesoamerican intellectual achievements/literature, which is what the posts I'm quoting, presumably including yours, were debating.

26/?

>>716321446
The post you're replying to litterally mentions one, Tlatoani: Aztec cities

>>716321051
see>>716302424

>>716279627 (OP)
Well, at least we have King from Tekken.

>>716322542
If you have any further reading recomendations of any kind I would gladly apriciate them

>>716280212
>ally yourself with the enemy because you can't defeat him alone.

>>716322542
>>716295902
>>716294585
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont:

Bernal Diaz:
>"...there are three Indians now living in the city of Mexico...who are such magnificent painters and carvers that, had they lived in the age of the famous Apelles...or of Michelangelo or Berrugeute in our own day, they would be counted in the same rank"
See also text in pic in >716295749

Albrect Durer (a famous German artist)
>I saw the things [brought from Mexico]... a sun all of gold a whole fathom broad, and a moon all of silver of the same size, also two rooms full of armor of the people there, and all manner of wondrous weapons of theirs, harness and darts, very strange clothing, beds, and all kinds of wonderful objects of human use, much better worth seeing than [myths or fairy tales]. These things were all so precious that they are valued at 100,000 florins. All the days of my life I have seen nothing that rejoiced my heart so much as these things, for I saw amongst them wonderful works of art, and I marveled at the subtle [genius] of men in foreign lands. Indeed I cannot express all that I thought there

Hernan Cortes:
>"We believe... by the aid of the interpreters who should plainly declare to them the truths of the Holy Faith...many... would very quickly depart from the their evil ways and would come to true knowledge, for they live more equally and reasonably than any other....which we have hitherto come across"
See also the text in the pic in >716292191

>>716321739
>>716319149
I got mixed up and the 30 (actually 40) page doc is the Spanish quote one I'm pulling the stuff i'm dumping now from (and I am making heavy cuts and slight paraphrasing of the quotes for space due to how long the whole doc, nor am I posting every single passage), the ruin reference doc as evidence for the accuracy of the artistic reconstructions is "only" 5ish pages, I say only because there's still 80 links in it, here:

pastebin.com/1Q5LDa6n

27/?

>>716282325
>Believe the world is made of dead bodies and body parts strewn up together
Technically it's true, the whole world is one giant graveyard.

>>716324741
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont:


Jose de Acosta (gonna post a lot from him)

>...to refute the false opinion that [the Indigenous people] are brutes...and lacking in understanding...Many and very notable abuses have been committed upon them as a consequence of this false belief...Those who have lived among them...know that it is a...harmful delusion...although they had many barbaric traits and...beliefs, there were many others worthy of admiration...they have a natural capacity to receive good instruction and...they even surpass in large measure many of our own republics. [Errored thinking is] found even in the gravest legislators and philosophers [and] the wisest republics, such as those of the Romans and Athenians...certainly, if the republics of the [?Aztecs or Mesoamericans?] and [?the Incas and Andeans?] had been described in [Classical Antiquity]...their laws and government would be respected...The most...learned men who have [learned] their secrets, their ancient style, and their government [were] amazed that there could have been so much order and reason among them...

>"Among the [Mesoamerican civilizations] there is great knowledge and memory of their ancient customs...although [not as developed as in East Asia], they [had writing] and books...in which...[calendrics, natural histories, customs were recorded]...[Diego de Landa burned many Maya books]...The same fate has befallen other things...[and has]...meant the loss of many...This happens out of unhealthy zeal...of those who...indiscriminately dub everything witchcraft and [doubt the Indigenous people's knowledge]...those who have...[investigated] these matters [properly] have found many [worthwhile things]...the [?Aztecs or Mesoamericans?] were very diligent in...[teaching speeches, songs, and lessons]...for this purpose they had schools...

28/?

>>716283218

>>716283218
Mossa is a weird guy, but he's a damn fine artist and does interest Mesoamerica stuff. He even tries to make the Warhammer Lizardmen more historically accurate, which is interesting

>>716325865
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont:


>...some persons who read [their speeches and writings] will [mistakenly believe] these were [made by Spaniards]....everyone who sees [their writings of Catholic teachings] will be astonished...[they produce novel and clear depictions]...from this [their intellect] can be inferred, for [us Spaniards} never taught them this way of writing...I have no doubt that [many Spaniards given the same task]...would not succeed...in [even a year or perhaps decade]

>.Nothing [amazes me more]...than the care and good order that the [?Aztecs or Mesoamericans?] had in bringing up their children...to keep [them disciplined and active]...in useful and honorable pursuits. To this end there were...schools...boys and girls... had... teachers who taught...them in praiseworthy activities...careful consideration was given to their inclinations: to the one... inclined toward war, occasion was given to prove it in battle...Others...inclined toward [priesthood were]... placed in the temple apartments...there they had their prelates and teachers who taught them everything concerning that ministry... if [we provided the same effort] in building...seminaries where these boys could be instructed....Christianity would flourish mightily...

And this last one I'll post from Acosta is so funny to me, it's like a 16th century DEI talk

>...There are no peoples so barbaric that they do not have something worthy of praise, nor are there any people so civilized...that they stand in no need of correction...an account of [Indigenous history and culture] must not be despised merely because they are Indians...because those nations are...different from our Europe, our pleasure is all the greater in fully discovering their...[culture and history]. It [rightly challenges] the foolish contempt [of some Europeans] who deny...these people can [be] reasonable and prudent...

29/?

>>716324741
Fantastique, anon. Bookmarked & downloaded just in case. Going to look up stuff about their priesthood & blessing rites in the doc.

>>716281494
I kneel to your mesoamerican autism. Keep it up

>>716326547
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
Cont:

Pedro Martir de Angleria (Italian historian in the Spanish court):

>"...WE have already stated that these natives possess books. The messengers sent from...Colhuacan brought a number of these books amongst other presents. The pages...are made of [bark paper]...they appear to have been put together by [a skilled hand]...The characters...almost resemble the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptians...[these books] report the deeds of each king's ancestors...The natives are also very clever in manufacturing wooden covers for...these books...the natives preserve in these books their laws, the ritual of their sacrifices and ceremonies, astronomical observations, and the precepts of agriculture...[regarding the shipment of artwork and luxuries {I cut a fuck ton of descriptions out here}]] I do not marvel at gold and precious stones. But I am astonished to see workmanship excel the substance. For I have with wondering eyes beheld a thousand forms and similitudes [of Mesoamerican art], of which I am not able to write...[?]...And in my judgment, I never saw anything whose beauty might so allure the eye of man...
Note I blended some wording from different translations here, but it's all from the same original document

Sahagun (like Acosta I'm gonna post a lot):

>[Us Spaniards]...so utterly trampled...and destroyed...all of their things, that no resemblance was left of what they were before. So now [many consider them] barbarians...when in reality, in matters of governance...they are far ahead of many other nations that presume to be highly civilized. If [the little that survives and I could study is so promising], how much more might there be [?if more were found or was researched about them?]...

>>716326554
I think you're confused, the pastebin is the ruin reference one. If you want info on rites then see the link in >>716296657

30/?

I like waifus

>>716327371
It seems I was indeed confused. Thank you for the correction.

>>716323432
Dude...

>>716280212
Spain fumbled all their riches too lol. They had no excuse either

American Catgirls

>>716328125
tbf to Spain, basically every colonial Empire fumbles their imperial economic gains at some point.
It's not like Britain or Portugal are doing especially well right now either

Will never cease to amaze me how such extensive discussions of topics like culture from an old civilization, theology, etc., can pop up in threads barely related to them.
Guess that's what happens when some anon manages to hit the specific autism of another.

>>716328412

>>716327371
>>716296639
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont with Sahagun:


>...All nations...set their eyes on [the] wise...on men [with great] moral virtues...those...skillful and brave in [war]...[Examples include]...the Greeks, Latins, Spaniards, French, and Italians...The same was [true of the Mesoamericans, especially the Aztec], among whom the wise, virtuous, and brave orators were held in great esteem. And from these... they...choose their high priests, lords... and captains...who would rule the republics, lead the armies, and preside in the temples. They were...very devout to their gods, most zealous with regard to their republics...polite among themselves...cruel toward their enemies...And now they have lost everything...

>...we know...they are capable of learning and using...the same way [us Spaniards know], [engineering]... masonry...carpentry...[tailoring, shoemaking, painting, writing, accounting, singing and using a variety of instruments]...and the knowledge of grammar, logic, rhetoric...and theology...they have the ability [to do], learn, and teach [these things]...there is no art that they [cannot] learn...they [governed] in accordance with the need of the people...they raised boys and girls with...strictness...under very attentive and rigorous teachers...[to]...respect and obey...to live morally and virtuously...

>....we began to teach [the Indians] to read, write, and sing [our ways]...since they were successful in this, we then were able to expose them to the study of grammar, and a college {Colegio de Santa Cruz de Tlatelolco} was built... the other priests who found out about this laughed a lot and made fun of it, taking it very much for granted that nobody [could]...teach grammar to such incapable people. But...they came to understand all the subjects of the art of grammar, to speak Latin, to understand it, to write in Latin, and even to write heroic verses...

31/?

>>716328507

>>716310121
Allied with them?

>>716328838

>>716328986

>>716294093
It was said that a woman with gems could walk through Mongolian territory and remain left alone.

Recommend me any type of media about the Aztecs, Mayans, or the Incas.

There is a lot of Mesoamerican themed stuff in games. Just not the way you want to see it because they control what they want you to see.

>>716328838
>>716328986
>>716329146
a rather Western European weapon for a supposed Mesoamerican Warrior, or is some Fire and Ice prequel comic rather than Histrical pulp

>>716328771
>>716295902
>>716295567
>>716294585
>>716294489
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont with Sahagun again:

>...As they saw this from experience, the secular and ecclesiastical Spaniards became very frightened at how such a thing could be done. I was the one who worked with them for the first four years, and I gave them knowledge of all subjects of the Latin language. When they saw that this was proceeding and that [the students] even had the ability [to accomplish much] more, both the seculars and the ecclesiastics began to oppose this activity

I had two artistic reconstructions of Aztec students at the school but I can't find either, RIP. And yes, you're reading this right, the Axtec students were learning scripture and other material so well that other priests got freaked out and tried to shut the school down

---

Las Casas:

>...[The Indians]'s temperance in eating and drinking, their moderation [in lust], their [rejection of material possession]]...it is proved...that these people...have excellent, subtle, and very capable minds..endowed..with...[the wisdoms defined by Aristotle]: monastic, economic, and political...prudence...[to] make any republic self-sufficient and prosperous: farmers, craftsmen, warriors...priests...judges...ministers of justice...men who govern well...the Indians [have] shown themselves to [have] acute minds, having justly and prosperously governed their republics...they have equaled many [peoples and nations] of the past and present [who are] praised for their [governments], way of life and customs...they have even surpassed...the Greeks and Romans..."

>{the passage in the pic in >>716304761}

32/?

>>716282325
weird that with all the edgy dark gorey games none of them has this as a setting

>>716279627 (OP)
Agreed.
Wish we had an strategy jrpg where you fight them or with them against spaniards.

>>716280212
>Literal aids riddled faggots.

>>716329637
>>716294585
>>716291482
>>716291853
>>716296530
>>716292589
cont with las casas

>We... sometimes used this word “barbarous”... and many call...these Indian peoples...barbarous...I...consider that an error...I wish to explain...[there are many possible definitions {I skip a bunch of stuff here}...these Indian races...have their kingdoms...kings...well governed and well ordered republics...houses and estates, and...laws...these peoples are barbarous only...insofar as they are pagans

And I think that's where I'll stop, as I said there's 40 pages here so there's a shit ton of quotes I didn't post but I really need to nap or work on other stuff

>>716329421
see the arch.b4k.dev link in >716286648 and the twitter media link in the desuarchive link below

>>716323769
I have a WIP book chart and some other resources here: https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/61614230/#61749571 but the chart is slightly outdated vs how it is now and the pastebins and stuff also desperately need to be updated

>>716320238
The Bronze age comparison is generally decent, but Mesoamerican cities got much larger then the largest bronze age cities, their waterworks were more complex, and their botanical and medical sciences, hygine, etc were cutting edge even by 16th century standards. Refer to >716312938 and >716314840. Conversely tho the Mesoamericans were not even up to bronze age standards with naval technology, never developing the sail, etc

32/33

>>716330829
cont:

>>716288683
see
>>716289940
>>716293341
They sacrificed 100s to 1000s a year, not millions. They also had wheels and axels, see pic, they just (probably) never used it for transportation since

A: no draft animals

B: Most of the terrain is mountain ranges/valleys or jungles and swamps

C: wheras in Eurasia metallurgy developed alongside urbanism/civilization (and therefore civil infrastructure and craft production was set up around using metals), and wheel and utilitarian metallurgy tech enabled each other (early wheels needed metal supports and drove metallurgical innovations, which in turn enabled more complex wheels which could be used for things like wheelbarrows), in Mesoamerica you had civilization, cities, etc develop way, way before metallurgy:

By the time even smelting of soft metals becomes a thing in Mesoamerica, 2000ish years after the region's first cities, you already had cities like Teotihuacan which was one of the largest cities in the world at the time, impressive even by Roman standards; and bronze smelting doesn't show up for another 1000 years after that, only a few centuries before European contact. They simply never had a big incentive to develop utilitarian metallurgy since they had urban socities without it, and without ututlitarian metallurgy to act as supports for wheels and without draft animals to pull carts, wheels weren't that incentivized either.

>>716315707
I forgot this game existed desu, didn't impress me when I did see it tho

33/33 for now, if the thread hasn't 404'd when I have time later I can try to pop back in

later anons

>>716315707
>soulmask
looks like shit tbqh

>>716331393
Have a great day anon

>>716329606
anon, only you can see so many tits and only focus on the axe.

>>716332171
It's just an odd weapon choice is all

>>716328412
Now that's a fucking artstyle

>>716331393
Take care anon. Thanks for dropping knowledge and answering questions.

Ngl historical anon made me not care about correct depiction of mesoamerica anymor.
The reality is too lame, please devs keep using stereotypes of savages.

>>716328047
King is cool

>>716331393
I'm curious aztecfag.
Do you make these threads or do you just sniff them out?

>>716330829
>he Bronze age comparison is generally decent, but Mesoamerican cities got much larger then the largest bronze age cities,
population tenochtitlan
between 200,000 and 400,000
population of persepolis
population of around 45,000 residents
discarded argument

>>716324612
Maybe you're not really retarded but just in case...
It was never about killing everyone in the shithole so that your people could populate the shithole.
It was always about constructing a vassal state where the tardiest tards would pay regular tribute.
>look at our new allies - our saviours - our war heroes even - they have demonstrated that they are the greatest and bestest and that's why they will be giving us slave labour products for the next 300 years, what champs!

>>716331393
All of these, along with American sculptures and architecture, are oopparts, none of which can be made without metal tools.

>>716281494
the mesoamerican autist is here,u are literally the only autist that is not an obnoxious retard,based

>>716331393
I only come into these threads for Aztec Scholaranon, keep up the good work my nigga

>>716280212
>villain wins because he hates shower
The War of the Worlds but reversed

>>716331393
Based
Are you the mesoamerican anon from the old civ threads?

>Genshin was going to use Mesoamerica for its inspiration in Natlan.
>Chickened out.
We could have had Asian Mayalogy kino, instead we got an ADHD-kid version of Dinotopia.

>>716288312
>aside from that the Dr. ME smith isn't sure if the roofs would have been triangular or flat
Wouldn't they simply have both? We have native drawings from Maya and they clearly show both in their villages and towns.

>>716340790
And even had these triangular roofs on the pyramid temples, which is something that is really damn rare to see in reconstructions of anything that's not pre-classical Maya, at least in my very limited experience.
Here's some guys setting fire to it.

>>716294491
Well we're speaking English for a reason

>>716302424
Guy was not lucky enough to score this girl.
The fact these are just giant-nosed Asians is really putting this in perspective. Like, have you seen any JP or CN girls? Flatlands. No ass, aerodynamic front. Very cultured.
And this seems to be the case for all Asians in Eurasia. But cross the Strait and suddenly, you get girls like this in native artwork and poor madlad Huemac. Fucking corn is next level, no wonder Americans get so huge.

Yo chillin', /v/?

Anyway, enough of my Maya interlude. Go play them in Settlers 4 or, idk, visit that hidden Maya village in nuLara. I wonder what Mesoanon >>716331393 makes of that one?

>>716336667
pathetic, it's absolute extermination or nothing.

>>716330829
Thank you based history nerd.

The face on those guys carrying the fat fuck says it all.

>>716343109
>tfw you've been working for 12 hours in the scorching mexican sun and after getting mugged of your daily wage by two corrupt jaguar warriors you come to boiled fucking cornloaf AGAIN

what went wrong?

>>716343380
>MFW I catch a commoner talking shit about me and my jaguar bro.

>aztecs are known to be manlets that always want to fight
>modern day mexican is a manlet that always wants to fight

mexico city needs a nuke

PRAISE THE MIGHTY JAGUAR!

>>716279627 (OP)
only 6-9% of the world's population lives in the southern hemisphere - nobody gives a shit

>>716279627 (OP)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2383240/Ecumene_Aztec/

MITE B COOL

>>716344827
They noted that Japanese were small, so it's not like they were small for Asian standards.

Plus, you can't forget the Castillans. Iberians are manlets even today and would be even more-so back then. And all of Latin America is inhabited by violent apes, it's not the Aztec genes working there. You think people who get chased around by fucking bulls just to prove something to themselves are well-adjusted individuals?
White civilization ends in Catalonia. Those guys are still Meds. Anything further west is dangerous territory even back home. We just exported these fucks abroad.

>>716345421
actually happening or just a scam?

>>716280212
More like the Moorberians were just the vessels that carried the true conqueror: The Variola Virus. The conquest was like a zombie apocalypse, but instead of reviving the dead, it just gave them repulsive blisters before they died. That's a good idea for a videogame, make a zombie apocalypse in ancient Mesoamerica where the virus revives the dead.

I enjoy this sex tourist just going around looking at Aztec ruins and telling us about them
https://youtu.be/_RbBcZDgnXE?feature=shared

>>716328412
What's this from?

>>716345436
The natives from the north and south america are not known to be violent. It's only that shitty central part of the world that belongs to mexico all the way to like north brazil.

Lizerdmen are a fun Fantasy Mesoamerican-inspired faction

>>716345643
Should be this?
https://www.amazon.com/Jaguar-God-Verotik-Glenn-Danzig/dp/B0013ESRRA

>>716345892
They do go all-in on the ruins aesthetic, which kind of ruins the whole impression.
It's not really Warhammer Mesoamerica, just Warhammer Night in the Museum in a way.

>>716280212
Say 'thank you, Spain' for civilizing our barbaric asses!

>>716281494
If whites or Asians made a game about Mesoamerica (or a fantasy setting based on it) they would be shitcanned. The "culture wars" are still alive and well. Ghost of Tsushima had a controversy because it was an American studio making a game about Japan. They tried to 'cancel' a lute player at the presentation and it's still a meme to say he's 'cringe' for being a white guy playing a Japanese instrument.
So a big part of why some settings are under explored is because many who have the talent and resources who might want to, can't, because it would be politically incorrect. I remember when a Japanese artist was driven off of Twitter for cultural appropriation of native Americans (it was actually based on ancient Ainu.

These guys are mostly known in pop culture for getting rolled by small armies of Europeans despite their huge numerical advantage, makes them seem a lot less badass despite looking cool. They're fun to play in AOE2 though.

>>716346398
>Could have had a continent full of honorary 2.5D Asian girls after someone taught them to avoid the sun. Ones who go "my grandpa sacrificed some people back in the day but we're all past that. Peace sign." rather than "my grandpa used to torture PoWs back in the day but we're all past that. Peace sign."
>Instead we have a continent of obese brown hapas and crack addicts.

>>716346260
It makes sense in-universe since the Temple cities haven't been in their prime for about 5,000 years by the time the game is set, and the Lizerdmen can only do minimal repairs and refushishment in their Temple cities.

>>716346839
Good thing Europeans don't give a shit about people appropriating knights in armor and castles or fantasy would just die.

>>716346398
Conquistadors killed far more people before "Conquistadoring" was obsolete, than Aztecs killed with human sacrificing.
>but they were brown!
Yea so were the people being sacrificed?

>>716331393
cont:

>>716336242
Anon, 45,000 is smaller then 200,000, and Persepolis isn't a Bronze age center, it's Iron age.

The papers I've read on comparative urbanism between Mesoamerica, Mesopotamia, and other regions list the largest Bronze age center in Eurasia as being Uruk with 40,000 denizens: Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan, Tikal, Cholula, Caracol, and Tula all match or exceed that. Probably Calakmul, Copan, and El Mirador as well, with others like Tlaxcala also being not far off.

There is the caveat though that some of those Mesoamerican cities likely only hit or exceeded that 40,000 figure over a much wider area, such as with Caracol and likely Tikal: Mesoamerican urbanism tended to be more spread out and radiating, especially big Maya cities who had suburban sprawls going out for hundreds of square kilometers. I also have seen some sources say that Uruk had 90,000 denizens if you include adjacent settlements: I'm unsure if in a Mesoamerican city planning context that would be analoagous to the suburbs Mesoamericanists often consider part of the primary city, or if it's best compared to actual adjacent settlement even within Mesoamerica.

No matter how you slice it though Uruk is eclipsed by Teotihuacan and probably Tenochtitlan.

>>716336673
Well, a lot of those examples are from the Preclassic period which was before Mesoamerica had metal, but as I allude to in >>716331393, the Mesoamericans did in fact develop metal tools: they used copper and bronze hatchets and adzes for woodworking, knives/chisels for lapidary, fishooks, sewing needles, and likely for some war axes and morning star maces, though there is some debate there.

>>716340790
Usually a mix of roofs like that in paintings, it's conveying the straw roof ones are lower status buildings, likely commoner residences, probably made from adobe brick, daub, or thatch, and the flat ones are fancier stone palaces, temples, administrative buildings, etc. But that's admittedly a generalization

34/?

>>716347053
Damn this looks just like south america. Does it have a cool patagonian desert too?

>>716347161
It's not that they give a shit it's just "hierarchy." White people, and east Asians to a lesser extent, are not allowed to look after or care about their own self interest. As thus, white cultures belong to everyone but at the same time "white people have no culture."

>>716346839
>Ghost of Tsushima had a controversy because it was an American studio making a game about Japan.
The only controversy was that the MC they picked was fairly squinty, which got people to tag him as Korean for a while until it became clear he's Japanese-American instead.
Because, well, pic-related and a very shitty track record with American studios. They were absolutely cool with it afterwards, though. Partially because the JP localisation team pulled a herculean task of translating away the American fetish for HONOR and similar shit.

>>716346398
>steal their gold
>murder them
>dur hurr say thanks

I'm glad europe is failing , you are getting islamed and there's nothing you can do about it lil byotch

>>716347427
Bruce Lee
Hirohito Araki
Lee Byung-hun

None of them have slant eyes because they're rich and have good diets.

>>716347374
No, the closest is the Culchan planes, which are just a mish-mash of the Pampas and general Patagonia, but since that is probably one of the most underdeveloped regions in the setting, you could say some of it is more Desert than Savannah or grassland.

>>716347427
Wait, does every East Asian ethnicity really stereotype the others as being squint-eyed and flat-nosed?

>>716345643
>>716346260
You can also read it for free and in high quality here:
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Jaguar-God

>>716280589
No, you are just racist

>>716314840
>>716316098
>>716322542
lmao

>>716348038
poor Asians (not rich Asians) are squint-eyed and flat-nosed. Most Asians you'd see in random places in the US (aka not your doctor) are poor or have poor diets.

>>716347053
Even with the cities going to shit, you still have the "But what do they eat?"
This is all just jungles. These guys lived among sprawling fields. So much so the ones who didn't level everything within sight distance actually called themselvs "Forest people" (K'iche' and even still the Spaniards did remark how much corn there was in their kingdom so it wasn't some pristine jungle, either).
Something like Japan, where you had a tropical civilisation living in small villages and every single bit of flat land around it was used for fields.
Old Kanto was just endless rice-fields and Mesoamerica, while not quite as pop-dense as Edo period Japan, absolutely needed a ton of cleared fields to supply their population.

>>716347550
you do realize that white people built the native american societies in the first place, right?
all of them tell legends of white skinned, blue eyed, bearded men in white robes coming from overseas in boats and teaching them how to do shit
before that they were living naked in caves
well the human sacrifice is the one thing they did on their own

>>716282170
I think those are pokeballs

>>716280212
Loser lol

>>716348356
That sounds interesting anon, got a source?

>>716347839
Anon... Japan has plenty of slant-eyed folks. While the prevalence drops markedly as you go towards the equator and get to brown but poor as fuck Asians.
It's genetics, there's nothing wrong with either look.

>>716348038
Kind of. It's not like people who look at Japanese tourists or vice-versa point at them and ask mommy why aren't they slant-eyed, but all of them have a slant-eye = undesirable/bad stereotype.

>>716349072
>plenty of slant-eyed folks
not in Tokyo
just google JPop - no slant in sight

>>716348640
Weren't most of these guys pure or nearly pure Spanish?

>>716349191
Anon, I lived in Kanagawa for over a year, there are some slant-eyed folks around. Even if it's definitely not the default.
Heck, I even got a few paper adverts for eyelid surgery in the typical mail spam.

>>716345150
>Sub-Saharan Africa is a sub-continent located in Africa. Sub-Saharan Africa comprises 15.05% of the world's land area, along with 15.91% of the world's current population. The estimated population for Sub-Saharan Africa is 1,273,663,761.

>>716288815
>large temples with a small settlement within in the mountains and jungles aren't real

>>716348947
look up viracocha for example

>>716281494
Okay now this is based.

>>716349768
Which specific image are you referencing here?

>>716280212
You call them losers yet why are Spaniard birthrates so HORRIBLE. They beat you by outbreeding and outlasting you. In time Spain will fall and Islam will genocide you. Same to white people you WILL be killed and the best part is you did yourselves by believing in Feminism and Women's Rights god amazing how STUPID YOU ARE.

You got nothing to be proud about your destiny is Non Existence and Extinction. You will fizzle out faster than South Korea yes I went there.

>>716288502
>Aztec Batman gets a recommendation
Oh hell yeah. Nice to know it gets your approval.

>>716346968
This is why I respect Argentina they actively try to kill the browns and mulattos and mestizos and such. They do everything in their power to reduce their numbers. Smart of them. I hope they conquer ALL of South America with their tactics. Bonus if they kill Jews who found this foul shit.

>>716347550
I don't know man from what I see the worst thing you can do is make white people angry within their nations. White people are nice until they are not. And unlike rage tards like Islam they whites can get so brutal. The only smart race on this Earth is Jews who manipulate the whites everyone else like Muslims is painting a target on their foreheads.

>>716288815
Is it disappointing I prefer the left side more? Except for the cities, where I want a mix (the actual masonry but within mountainous jungle). Some of the cities/nations perhaps being 'not evil' though such as using animal skulls only and when you interact with them they're actually intelligent and diplomatic rather than being 'ooga booga.' Perhaps with a main quest that involves dealing with the rise of evil cults surrounding an invading god that is producing the stereotypical edgy shit.
I kinda want a fantasy setting that is a mix of (media fantasy) Aztecs and the Ming Dynasty. And I wonder if I could get around the culture war shit by making it... all the game are various anthro races with no actual humans.

how the fuck would you even react to this shit ?

>>716279627 (OP)
Gotta Sacrifice Fast!

>>716350983
>game
I meant *characters. I am sleep deprived.
Great thread! Bookmarked. Every time I think about actually trying to quit 4chan (or just certain boards like /v/) a gem like this comes again.

>>716282325
>The death toll nearing 20,000 sacrifices a year across the empire.
it was actually 250 000 per year

>>716282464
This is why Duterte was right about Drug Criminals. They simply must be killed. No incarceration, no wasting budget money on their arrests, kill them all ESPECIALLY their customers. You buy drugs congrats you will be killed the moment you are found out. Duterte was right. Genocide is correct with these subhumans.

>>716351583
it was 6 millions actually

>>716279627 (OP)
Member that people were thinking that Elden Ring will be set in somekind not aztec setting. Dont remember why.

>>716348640
>Masonic cryptojew uprising
little indios didn't win there either

>>716281494
I only entered this thread because I knew mesoamerianon was going to show up.
I was not dissapointed.

I can't trust anything anyone says these days about history, no matter how genuine they are; it's just an endless line discovering a barbaric civilization that wasn't actually that barbaric, but then we discover appalling examples of savagery, but they're taken out of context, then the context doesn't actually change the overall assessment, and there are counterexamples that show them as being incredibly sophisticated and ethical, but the discovery is actually from an adjacent civilization, then we learn it was the same civilization all along, but the research is exposed as excessively biased in favor of one interpretation, which is ultimately for naught because all the original evidence upon which all the research was done was either wild assumptions based on very fragmented discoveries or outright fabricated.

>>716351779
People tend to repeat bullshit. Look at how many are in denial that Natlan isn't really based on the American cultures.

Besides, if the Japanese side ever got serious, they'd much more likely base it on the Maya rather than Aztecs. Much more JP research and access to resources.

>>716279627 (OP)
The lizardmen in Warhammer fantasy are clearly Aztec/Mayan and Lustria is literally SouthAmerica with Amazon on steroids. And they have fucking T Rexes and Lazer dinos, they aren't Lazer crocs but they come pretty close.
Petsuchos my beloved.

>>716353680
Wait till you learn Bronze Age Collapse through wars and invasions seems to be 20th century archeologists doing their best bullshit impressions on everything.

It does help a lot to explain why we couldn't find out any-fucking-thing about the Sea People in general, rather than as a very specific group that landed in the Levant and settled there.

>>716279627 (OP)
We need games with this aesthetic so I can get my sexy Jaguar anthros

>>716284263
The Incas too. At the height of their empire they killed, enslaved or exiled anyone that wasn't inca.
Iirc inca means conquistador and it's the name the lesser tribe gave them. When Spaniards arrived the quechuas were initially cautious, when they realized spaniard wanted to dethrone the incas they helped them. And they knew spaniard were going to fuck things up too but for them it was the lesser evil. They tell that story to this day. And the tipical hat and clothes they use nowadays are the ones the Spaniards gave them.

>>716294156
>nta, but mesoamerican history is fucking cool and insane
Which history isn't?
Tangent but I hate reading these cliches.
>they have a rich culture/language
>they have a storied history that stretches thousands of years
>they have a unique musical/cooking culture
Who doesn't? Look at Africa, every shade of nigger has their own language/customs/gods. Am I supposed to be impressed that humans are acting like humans?
This ties back to mythology because only the cool stuff remains through evolution. I suspect we don't get the boring stories because nobody was interested in them/they got flanderized, which is why we have stories like the Odessey and not Zeus going shopping.

>>716286931
>Have any feedback? I know a guy who knows the dev
Kek how?

>>716284737
Best threads on /v/ are /an/ threads /co/ threads /tv/ mainly startrek threads.
Anything BUT videogames.
These threads are always super comfy.
I. Remember one were we just posted vidya bunnies and kots. Not a single shitposts

>>716355329
You sound jaded and gay

>>716354997
>Iirc inca means conquistador and it's the name the lesser tribe gave them.
Nah, Inka means "king". Though yeah, they were recent conquerors of the area, similar to how Aztecs were relatively young and successful upstarts in the region.

>>716355437
I remember the dev even posting on 4chan. Fairly sure Mesoanon and his cabal of Mesoautists simply offered to "proofread" and provide suggestions for free.

>>716355329
Superlatives are gay, but once you get to a culture with sufficient level of complexity, you do start running into a lot of "Wait, you can do X that way?"
That's one of the biggest drawing point for East Asian culture. Guys had schools and locks and windows and knives... and almost everything they did, they did in some way different than the standard Egypto-Mesopotamian cultures that stretch from Iceland to Indonesia.

>>716347343
cont:

>>716350710
It mostly does. Poison Ivy and Catwoman's designs are nonsense, and Moctezuma II's is eh, and there's a few weird incorrect statements in interviews here and there, but everything else that's Mesoamerican themed visually ranges from decent to excellent.

I suspect it's going to end up being the most authentic, or second most authentic (after Onyx Equinox) Mesoamerican themed piece of media released in memory that's a commercial production by a major studio (EX: excluding indie projects or indie stuff that got picked up by a publisher)

>>716353680
If you have any questions or skepticism about anything I posted let me know and I'd be happy to clarify. I know you said that for you it's less an issue of if i'm being genuine (and I'd hope you would agree I have been, I've gone out of my way to correct and nitpick people in this thread who have downplayed sacrifices too, not just played them up) and more an issue of if the info and sources I'm going off of are reliable, but I regularly read academic papers and keep up with research, so I am actually in a position to evaluate the methodology of the sources I'm going off of, at least for a decent amount of stuff

>>716348447
They're glyphs/motifs which represent eyes or stars, refer to the subsection in the image of >>716287291

>>716355437
>>716355748
Mesoamerican stuff isn't exactly a popular topic a lot of people are into, anybody doing anything Mesoamerican related that's at least decently well done is gonna in contact with or get contacted by anybody else into the topic. It's a small world, everybody kinda knows everybody.

>>716354786
see the arch.b4k.dev link in >>716286648

>>716346398
See pic

35/?

>>716281494
Need aztec noblewoman tradwife

>>716349596
>>71635222
>oh yeah the elite fight in wars.


Hahaha read the dumbest shit on the internet here

>>716288683
They had wheels.. They just didn't have big animals to pull, and the terrain is a cluster fuck.. Try driving a cart pulled by 4 alpacas on a slanted 40.degree slope. I bet they tried tho. It was probably funny

>>716282325
>we dont know shit about these people, but experts believe this is how it was all built and went down
yeah okay

>>716280212
>I win by purchasing peace
So in the end they paid back what they stoled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichimeca_War#Purchase_for_Peace

>>716355692
Oh yes, I must be jaded. I go read books on cultures not my own all the time because I'm a jagged fuck.
Or maybe it's the opposite: that humans are fundamentally awesome, that all of us have cool stories to tell of our ancestors. And I disagree with the notion that you can cherry pick people like dog breeds.
>>716356209
Maybe I'm too ESL to say but the point of my post wasn't who cares, it's that we're all cool and worth digging into.

>>716290028
>GreatswordOfDamnation.png

>>716282325
time traveling (nordic) "aliens" posing as gods

>>716294130
Bruh, grass. As in grazing animals. Wtf do you think horses, sheep, cows, deer, etc eat. You must be American for sure.

>>716287784
Theres no such thing as the mayan empire
Are you thinking of the toltecs?

>>716288815
Aztec niggas fought their wars in fursuits lmao

>>716287784
>>716358758
The Mayans weren't an empire, but it was definitely a culture where a lot of city states in and around the region shared mainly due to having the same language noted by the ruins and having a vigesimal number system that repeats every few cycles.

Also, the Aztecs weren't descended from Mayans, they adopted the culture of the people that descended from Teotihuacan, which was another culture/empire that was around during the Mayan times and even traded with them.

>>716300483
It's a term used to describe races not specific nations. Mongoloid, caucasoid negroid, etc. Since most of the people that had an Asian phenotype were ruled by Mongols at some point they went with that

It's a cool aesthetic at the very least but idk if the blood sacrifice stuff would go over well.

>>716357058
We know plenty about the Aztec, see >>716296657. There's more works written in Nahuatl by Aztec authors that survive today then there are written sources in Greek by Ancient Greek authors, according to some claims I've seen

It's just a lot of the material doesn't have English or even Spanish translations, and much of the ones that do didn't get them until relatively recently, within the past 50-70 years, so they're still in copyright and also often expensive and out of print. Also, most people just don't give a fuck about Mesoamerica and don't bother teaching it, and in turn most people don't know those sources exist

That being said that anon's green text is still iffy, refer to my posts from >>716288502 to >>716289940 and all the ones I did in between

>>716350983
>>716351389
Taste is subjective but yes, I seriously have to question what's more appealing about dirty colorless huts among a few grey pyramids and people in unga bunga tribal clothing over the near paradisical alien fantasy that actual Mesoamerican aesthetics has?

>>716359323
>>716358758
>>716287784
See the summary in >>716286931 for a timeline and how different cultures interacted with each other

There wasn't singular "empire" that unified all Maya states together and had top down direct imperial rule, but the "Aztec Empire" didn't unify all Nahua states together and was also more of a hands off hegemony. The Aztec Empire DID unify MORE of Nahua civilization together then any one Maya political network did to Maya civilization, and it was MORE centralized then most Maya networks, but I don't think it's inherently insane to call some of the larger Maya kingdoms "empires". It's certainly not the accepted parlance by Mesoamericanists, though

We also don't know what ethnic group built and were the main denizens of Teotihuacan (but we do know it had ethnic neighborhoods with some Maya, Zapotec, Gulf Coast and West mexican immigrants), but whatever it was, they probably weren't Nahuas

36/?

>>716279627 (OP)
I want a multiplayer game/RPG game set in the conquest of South America/Mexico with massive battles. Would be cool to play as a Spanish/Portuguese conquistador or an Indian brave.

>>716360873
>>716359323
>>716358758
>>716287784
cont:

There's SOME models which put Proto-Nahuatl in Central mexico during the classic period, but they're uncommon and don't have a consensus for them yet, and to be honest I'm still confused about the specific proposals.

Even if the Teoithuacanos were some Nahua group, I don't think it would change that all the Nahua groups and states we think of as "Aztec'" came from a seperate, later migiration wave. The Mexica of Tenochtitlan absolutely did take artistic, architectural, and even urban design influence from Teotihuacan's ruins tho, revered the site, did excavations there, refurnished it's shrines, etc.

>>716346839
see
>>716288502 , I really don't think most people would care, for better or worse.

>>716345421
>>716345539
see
>>716288312, see arch.b4k link in >>716286648 for Mesoamerican games that aren't terrible

37/?

>>716353680
A good rule of thumb on history is:
>If you weren't Mediterranean, Central European or Chinese, you were never ever relevant

>>716292790
Seems like it takes more effort than just screaming.

>>716279627 (OP)
age of empires 2 :)

>>716348640
>Break off from Spain
>Become EVEN MORE racist against the original natives despite being their rapebabies
Kek

Which one is she from/based on again?

>>716362201
Isn't she just Quetzacoatl? Then she's definitely Nahuatl (Aztec/Teotihuacan).

>>716281494
why did you reply to yourself so many times, pretending that you're some sort of /v/ celeb

What were their feets in life?
Were these two real?

>>716279627 (OP)

Both prehispanic and Spaniard aesthetics look terrible to me. Also, I can't cheer on Aztecs and so because they lost big time.

We would've done so much better if it had been the English conquering Mexico.

>>716362597
Iberian colonial aesthetics are amazing you cultureless cretin. If anything the English were the dullest civilization to ever own colonies.

>>716360873
>I seriously have to question what's more appealing about dirty colorless huts among a few grey pyramids and people in unga bunga tribal clothing over the near paradisical alien fantasy that actual Mesoamerican aesthetics has?
Because I am a bisexual furfag that wants to see the tall, muscular leopard and lizard warriors half naked. I mostly just like the aesthetics. Story and functional wise the setting will probably be a Three Kingdoms ripoff. hence the other part is the merger a Chinese setting. It's basically just furry-martial arts-Rot3K with magic and all the viable rulers being gods of some kind. So admittedly not much to do with this thread but I am enjoying your info a lot.

Overall though I just want to fuck the fantasy version of this lizard so fucking bad...

>>716282170
It actually hurts me how bad the Genshin A team butchered Natlan with how much kino the B team put in in the lore and world quests.

>>716279627 (OP)
Mostly because literally any representation of mesoamericans outside of le wholesome brown pipo :) causes a gigantic shitstorm and most devs would rather avoid that and make a medieval knight game

>>716281494
All made up shit lmao

>>716294585
Honestly, considering 90% of their written and oral history is gone and the Popol Vuhl is one of the few things we have left... yeah. It's a damn good and iconic story.

Great thread everybody. Cheers.

>>716304761
This is something I often don't see people mention, how the sheer level of zealotry found in native Mesoamericans just got redirected to a new religion instead of erased. There's also multiple accounts of native priests autistically learning about Catholicism, then arguing with and correcting Spanish priests about their own religion.

I miss my time working at the national museum of anthropology. There were a lot of cool artifacts.

>>716363418
See
>>716284939 , the image there shows the specific ruins, manuscripts, and historical accounts the images and art are based on, and in that pot I also link to a /v/ thread where I linked dozens of more examples of the ruins that the art is based on and is depicting, and I linked an even longer set of links in >716324741

>>716362597
By Prehispanic aeshetics do you mean actual prehispanic aeshetics, or pop culture nonsense? See >716281494 and >716288815

>>716363173
No, nobody gives a shit outside of nerds like me, even if they should, see >>716288502

>>716362325
>>716362201
see pic

>>716362969
There's ways to do coomer or otherwise more liberty take designs while still having it tie into actual Mesoamerican motifs and iconograph though: See >716294540: that doesn't show skin but it does show how even designs with cargo pants and gatling guns can still do interesting stuff thematically that ties into actual Mesoamerican symbolism. Tlalocmon from Digimon is another example (docs DOT google DOT com slash document SLASH d SLASH 1Efs7Fpw3AusYTV3DyrVSaGmB10V8NqFy7ZHZxzDw7ww), or Charles Rickett's designs from the never-finished play he worked on, etc. You just need to be creative and do your research

>>716364483
Please email me at saintseiyasource@gmail.com and say you were the anon in a /v/ thread who worked at Museo nacional, I'd love to ask you some questions.

Here's a replica of a stele. The original stone one is kept in a more secure place.

>>716346398
Why do all the /v/exicans seethe so hard about Spain?

whats a good introduction book on the conquistadors thats interesting? is the conquest of new spain good?

I'm wondering if Aztecanon is a German. Those fucking guys have a hard on for this kind of stuff.

>>716364653
Only reason I can post these is because this site is anonymous and transient.
I can answer your questions here, with no identity or other personal information attached. I'm not exactly sure how far the NDA extends- Only that there's certain things I definitely cannot discuss or share, and certain sites I cannot share anything on at all.

Mesobro if you're still here, how did you feel about the Rokka no Yuusha's Mesoamerican influences?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtbhExrKCKc

>>716364931
gaem?

>>716365970
RJ436879 Dr. Maria expedition

>>716279627 (OP)
Soon, Visa and Mastercard will start blocking gorey games too so say goodbye to any hope of getting an aztec game. It's over bro.

Only good Aztec game.

The American gods may be cruel, bloodthirsty, violent, and probably each of them is just a war god with a different theme, but at least they're not gay like the Greek gods.

>>716365374
>>716364676
Dang, they make you sign an NDA?

Anyways, here's a random smattering of questions:

- Why does the website's search suck so much? You can't apply more then one tag from most collections pages without the search resetting itself half the time, and a lot of the metadata tag offered as search options like material isn't even listed on the individual collections pages per object.

- Does the Museo nacional have any internal opinion or policies regarding if it counts as a "public space" for the purposes of Mexico's Freedom of Panorama laws? This has implications on the potential copyright status of 20th century and modern paintings on display.

- How does INAH's limited budget impact what you guys want to do or how you plan things?

- Has there ever been any kind of push or desire to make photos or other material available via more permissive copyright licenses? INAH generally retains full rights or only releases stuff with CC BY NC ND or some shit, which I assume is a pretty high level choice, but does the MNA as an institution like, has the ability to potentially release photos with more permissive licenses of pieces in it's collections if it wanted to? Does anybody there want that?

- This is less a MNA question, and more a general INAH question, but how come so much research is only published in conferences and in INAH press releases rather then in actual journals as academic papers? It makes it a huge pain to keep up with shit like the Tzompantli excavations and other stuff in and around the Templo Mayor

- Not a question, but please dump as many photos as you can of pieces in the collections you've managed to take and feel comfortable posting. If you could do a rar I would be so grateful.

If you ever do decide you want to email me, please feel free, my lips are sealed and I would keep everything and anything private, but I understand if you don't want to take the risk.

>>716362880

Yeah I wasn't talking about architecture, buddy. I'm talking about the way people dressed at the time, because this thread is about video games.

Whatever your opinion about the Brits is, fact is that each and every country conquered by Spain is firmly set in the third world today.

>>716367346
Who the fuck gives a shit about the current state of the colonies nowadays? And let's not even go there considering who owned India. We're talking about aesthetics here, and Iberians and the French mogged the Brits so hard it isn't even funny.

>>716367310
>>716365374
>>716364676
Actually, two more:

One, in "The macuahuitl: an innovative weapon of the Late Post-Classic in Mesoamerica" by Marco Antonio Cervera Obregón, he states

>During exploratory works carried out in the 1960s, before the construction of Line 1 and 2 of a Mexico City subway intensive excavations were done in which countless objects were recovered, many of them offerings or gifts. These objects included an original macuahuilzoctli, measuring about 50 cm long, found at the corner of Tacuba and Allende (Higuera 1990: 506). This unique example is supposedly in the archaeological vaults of the National Anthropology Museum

You know anything about that specimen? I don't think this is the San marcos street specimen that was on display at the templo mayor museum recently, right?

Secondly, is there any way for a general member of the public to get in touch with specific staff at the Museo Nacional, INAH, or Templo Mayor museum? I've tried to find emails before to ask questions (since, again, I can't seem to find a lot of up to date info on excavations, as well as because there's specific photographers INAH has hired I wanted to speak to for things like publications on Feather Mosaics), and unless I'm just stupid and can't navigate sites well, contact addresses don't seem to be public. I guess if you're under NDA though then so might any of these other people be and that might be part of why.

>>716367310
1. No clue; I'm just an archaeologist. That said, most archaeology websites are abysmal dogshit stuck deeper in the past than the artifacts.
2. This is an interesting one that I have no idea about; I can only tell you that certain artifacts are protected from photography not out of copyright but for security reasons.
3. It's a massive impact. There's a lot of unpaid intern work for college credit, but the museum's enormous backlog of artifacts and reports means there's always something to do, even if it's not an exciting new project or dig. A lot of what went on when I was there was logisitics- organizing artifacts and reports, packing them, moving them around from place to place for exhibition, unwrapping and cataloging decades-old donations, and so on. A lot of the infrastructure was fairly old and clearly past its prime but INAH makes do. It helps thar everyone I worked with was incredibly passionate about their work, and able to get stuff done on next to no budget.
4. Attitudes may have changed because I was there several years ago, but if anything there was a strong desire to keep the copyright tight and controlled. I would not expect it to change- as u mentioned, there are certain artifacts I wasn't even allowed to photograph. The museum is extremely protective of its items. I can't speak for the staff, but they seemed to regard this as a good thing, although it definitely comes more from the admin side than the researcher side.
5. No clue but this is something I've always been annoyed by too. My guess is that INAH really values being independent.

>>716367894
1. I'm familiar with the specimen, yes. We did not get to see it. It's kept in a vault vault, like bank vault type deal, not just the locked archives. We got to see a picture of it and the inside of the vault, but nothing more than that.

2. You need connections. It's how I got my job there. Most of the staff is incredibly friendly and eager but I cannot stress how important it is that you need to know people in the know to reach out to them. If you have research or training goals, I imagine they'd be very receptive. I recommend reaching out to archaeologists who work on associated projects... if you can find them.

I wish Wilds didn't suck ass bros....

I really wish I'd maintained my connections; maybe I'd be able to get in touch with folks there now, but I am incredibly autistic and bad at communication.

>>716369028
I and my friends have plenty of contacts with english speaking academics and researchers from the US and Europe, but I am the rare person interested in Mesoamerica who can't speak or read Spanish at all (ironically, so are some of the other people in my friend group I collaborate with the most) which has really limited our ability to network with Mexican academics

Even just on something like twitter, Majora for example is followed by tons of researchers, but has consistently had issues with even getting replies from researchers on the Templo Mayor project, at UNAM, etc.

> It's kept in a vault vault, like bank vault type deal, not just the locked archives. We got to see a picture of it and the inside of the vault, but nothing more than that.

Is it especially fragile, or what do you think the reason is? You all have stuff like the Sun Stone fully on public domain so clearly it's not an issue of it being "too important" to risk being displayed or photographed.

If you've seen images of it, can you describe it? For reference I posted a weapon collage in >>716311684 and also have a (less updated) macuahuitl specific one in pic related, if you want to make comparisons to specific codex depictions. I'm interested in the relative length and width and thickness of the shaft, how the blade insert slots worked (was it a single channel, or seperate inset slots? Is there any indication of how closely the blades would have sat to one another or if there were gaps? Were there blades with the shaft?), if the handle flows cleanly/smoothly into the rest of the shaft or if it's an abrupt, distinct thinner handle, etc.

>>716364653
And him?

Videogames!
(There's a cool Artifact I want to post but I can't find the photo)

>>716369736
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Aztec_Mythology
You could review these too.

>>716369642
>>716369028
>fully on public domain

Meant to say "public display" here

I really wish I had access to some of my other drives right now where I have more images saved of specific pieces from different museums I'm trying to get better photos of so I could ask if you have photos of specific specimens or not you could post

I guess another question: Where is the best place to find out of print books that INAH has published they no longer have in stock on their online store, or other books published in mexico on archeology that are out of print? So far I've sometimes found listings on http://www.puvill.com, https://antiqua.mx/ , https://www.mercadolibre.com.mx , https://libreriasdeocasion.com.mx, and https://sigloxxieditores.com.mx/ , but there's still a lot I want I can't find through those and international shipping is also a pain (but I do have friends in Mexico who I can have buy stuff to ship to then to then ship to me if necessary)

>>716366780
What's Aztec in SF3?

Tlalocmon!

>>716280747
Are you under the impression the black insurgents had a singular combat/strategic win against the white Rhodesians?

>>716364653
My Quartzeladicolt can beat up you're Quarsthotl.

>>716279627 (OP)
I'm Late for the thread but there is Dominions which draws from cultures and mythology from all over the world (plus some modern literature like Conan and some of the dev OCs too) as inspiration for its nations, units, gods, magic etc...

It has 3 lines of factions inspired by Mesoamerican cultures spread across 3 eras:

Mictlan - which is your typical Aztec inspired nation with a serious kink for sacrifices and blood magic.

Nazca - which is a mix of one of the OC faction (basicaly magical winged people who live in mountains) who broke off and developed into a different culture inspired by the Incas which includes worship of their mummyfied dead down to the point where their deads had more rights than the living and their society stagnates as everyone is busy trying to appease the increasing number important dead people.

Xibalba - which are a race of cave dwelling bat people who used to oversee the passage of sun under the earth in a previous era, but now they want to take the above world, until their caves get flooded by an era defining cataclysm which causes frogman (a faction based on Lovecraftian fish frog people who got fuck by an even meanner Lovecraftian horror faction ) to take over their caves.

You can read about the units and its lore blurbs using the right filters on the community tool to read the game units stats and whatnot and also the wiki https://larzm42.github.io/dom6inspector/