Thread 718815781

>"Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool's errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as the great Jack Kirby informed us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form."

Did he make a valid point?

>Alan Moore is an English author known primarily for his work in comic books
>comic books
Comic books might be the only medium that has a lesser artistic merit than video games.

>>718815781 (OP)
No he didn't. He views "art" as having inherent dignity and nobility and thus being solemn and dry and serious even when it's trying to express joy and light. This is why most people at or above a certain age utterly fail to comprehend games as an art, because they think "art" means "snooty".

>>718815781 (OP)
>snake god worshipper
>trying to lecture people what art is

>>718815781 (OP)
he just made a statement, it sounds like he's just too old to begin to understand anything about the medium enough to expound upon that statement

A man who hasn't played Undertale.

>>718815781 (OP)
Didn't Dave Gibbons make art for a video game?
>>718815906
Also this lmao

Who gives a shit what some old loon has to say? Also he writes comicbooks so his opinion is worthless

>>718815781 (OP)
I get Ebert but where the hell does a fucking comic book artist get off saying this shit, glass houses nigga

>>718816871
Pot calling the Kettle nigga

>>718815781 (OP)
I think that if Alan Moore had serious opinions about art he wouldn't make superhero comics.

>>718815781 (OP)
Art and Cinema games should fuck off anyways.
>>718815906
Good thing his "comic books" were long form graphic novels and not serialized pulp trash. His graphics novels are good reads.

>>718815781 (OP)
"Art" just means craft or something that is made. A bench made by a carpenter is art. So is a painting, so is an opera, so is a videogame.
People figured this out 2000 years ago, yet now we have dumbasses who think they're so above it all muddying the waters.

When you focus on art as a message and not something you make for people to use or enjoy you completely miss the point. I blame modernist idiots.

A journalist isn't an artist, and a banana taped to the wall isn't art.

>>718817038
>Art and Cinema games should fuck off anyways.
Games made with the intent of being "art" suck.
But most decent games are art, because well designed gameplay that feels like it's supposed to is an art.

>>718815781 (OP)
degenerates art, now that is only serious form of art and not waste of time made by the jews

>>718817038
His comics are trash. And stop calling them graphic novels like a pretentious twat.

>>718815906
Nobody (except maybe Garth Ennis) hates capeshit more than Alan Moore now.
>Most people equate comics with superhero movies now. That adds another layer of difficulty for me. I haven’t seen a superhero movie since the first Tim Burton Batman film. They have blighted cinema, and also blighted culture to a degree. Several years ago I said I thought it was a really worrying sign, that hundreds of thousands of adults were queuing up to see characters that were created 50 years ago to entertain 12-year-old boys. That seemed to speak to some kind of longing to escape from the complexities of the modern world, and go back to a nostalgic, remembered childhood. That seemed dangerous, it was infantilizing the population.
>This may be entirely coincidence but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma and the UK voted to leave the European Union, six of the top 12 highest grossing films were superhero movies. Not to say that one causes the other but I think they’re both symptoms of the same thing – a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions.

>>718816241
>Did he make a valid point?
He didn't make any point. In fact he make a point of not making a point

>>718815781 (OP)
The opinions of a capeshit comic book writer in regards to art, are utterly worthless.

>>718817241
Its legal definition you useless inverted penis having bitchless faggot.

>>718817038
Pulp comics and novels brvtally mog anything Alan Moore ever wrote and indeed 99% of everything made in the last 40 years

>>718815781 (OP)
>make grand, sweeping statements about something you've never engaged with
Alan Moore posts on /v/

>>718815781 (OP)
Lol no. He's a massive retard.

>>718817093
>broken nose
what the fuck is it with abrahamics and doing this shit

The story in RE4 is better than 99% of movies ever made and it's not even that good.

>>718815781 (OP)
I refuse to acknowledge the opinions of some tree beard wannabe anarchy edgelord who's the most miserable cunt to come out of Britain.

im trusting anything from someone who thinks full blown communism works

everyone is retarded as usual its the ebert quote you're getting trolled congrats op

>>718817371
Heh

>>718817093
This. Also videogames do have messages to share on the same level as other mediums and games that exist as art in the visual sense to begin with. Nobody who has ever uttered words like in the OP has engaged with the medium at all, they're no smarter than the average person watching the news.

>>718817462
It does.

>>718817252
>Nobody (except maybe Garth Ennis) hates capeshit more than Alan Moore now.
Nobody criticize "Geek Culture" more than Simon Pegg, yet he has wasted his entire life participating in the creation of cultural terrorism. Just like mister Pegg, Moore's career is nothing but a cultural cloaca, and their opinions on art should be dismissed.

>>718815781 (OP)
Never heard of her

>>718815781 (OP)
>who the fuck is this guy
>comics

lol
LMAO

>>718815781 (OP)
"Art" means liberal propaganda to make you accept foreigners who will destroy your civilization, and faggots who will destroy it from within. Videogames are not art and I intend to keep it that way.

>>718815781 (OP)
Alan Moore has never been incorrect about anything ever

>>718815781 (OP)
holy based

>>718817520
Not once it leaves your imaginattion.

>>718815781 (OP)
The problem lies with the words "game" and "art". If you type these words into a number of online dictionaries you will get several dozen definitions, which fact should immediately make you suspicious of whether there is any generally accepted definition at all. The short answer is there isn't. Some of mankind's greatest minds have tried defining what a game is and failed, while on the other hand the word "art" is used in so many different contexts that the only thing we are expected to understand when someone refers to something as art is that they are praising it. Like "democracy" and "terrorism", two other popular words that have yet to be clearly defined (and probably never will), the word "art" is often used in a consciously dishonest way. From Orwell:
>"The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

>>718817252
>National Socialist satsuma
>look up what a satsuma is
>it's an orange
How can one man be so based?

>>718815781 (OP)
but Ebert said that :^(

>>718817456
That's a statue of st elizabeth from 1225 you blithering idiot.
It's also really high up. Noses are fragile and they break. Get over it.

>>718817590
So getting back to the question "Can games be art?" (which to make sense of we now read as "Can games be good?"), the only acceptable answer to this question would be, "Of course, and so can anything." Music, movies and even food can be art (but only good music, movies and food). Books can be art (but only good books, and we even have a fancy name for them: we call them Literature). War can be art (The Art of War). Sex can be art (The Art of Love). Even my cock can be art when I am in the right mood, et cetera, et cetera.

The next question of course would have to be, "So which kinds of games are art then?", and the answer to that question should by now be obviously, "The good ones." So Deus Ex is art, Elite is art, and Ketsui is art. Wing Commander and Pikmin and Master of Magic are art, et cetera, et cetera.

So this is all that needs to be said on the subject of games as art. But why all the hoopla in the gaming press these days, if the issue is so trivial? Well, the hoopla is due to the fact that practically everyone who writes about games today is a slobbering, uneducated, mentally retarded fuckwit, and therefore incapable of grasping the simple facts I just explained here. Today "serious" game writing is all about little kids desperate to have their little hobbies validated by their moms and dads in order to feel good about wasting so much time on them, instead of going out in the world and doing, you know, something useful. "Yes, little Johnny, my angel, it's okay to keep playing your favorite videogames past your bedtime, because they are art. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a grown man spending a whole freaking week as a plumber who frolics around a happy pretend mushroom kingdom, killing off cartoony animals by jumping on their heads -- nothing wrong at all. Carry on, dear."

>>718815781 (OP)
It's time to upset people again.

>>718817675
Usually faces of statues were smashed in/broken entirely by conquering forces as a symbological action of the old rule's defeat. (Defaced.)

>>718817252
>but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma
Shitlib belief. Americans have been electing fascists for at least a century.

>>718815781 (OP)
Alan isn't worth listening to on anything political like this. He doesn't understand these things at all.

>>718817768
Based stinky Truth Exists Man, telling it like it is.

doesn't this guy worship a snake god

>>718817843
For a century? Tsk tsk tsk, what do you think the founding fathers and the presidents afterwards were? Not fasicsts? Lol no. America has always been a land for the white man first not for the third world. It was supposed to be the last bastion for European culture, freedoms and civilization.

>>718817768
I feel like I don't need to read Watchmen anymore.

>>718815781 (OP)
he never said that, btw
that was roger chinlet

>>718817828
The deliberate nose-breaking thing is really only true in ancient egypt.
Statues from every era and culture have broken noses and it's just because they're fragile.

A little absurd to claim a christian deliberately defaced a christian sculpture. If it was done by an iconoclast then they would have torn the whole thing down.

>>718817768
>First fucking page of the comic has Rorschach praising Harry S. Truman, who killed a shitload of innocent people under the pretext of saving even more lives
>gets mad at Ozymandias for doing the same thing
Stinky Truth Exists Man is a hypocrite and stinky.

>>718815781 (OP)
alan moore is satanic communist

>>718817590
>>718817687
English is one of the worst languages to have this conversation too, because most other languages don't use a word as ambiguous as "art" to slap on anything they approve. Instead, they have more specific words that either imply a specific type of art, or words closer to "craft" where it's focused more on their technical merits.

>>718818072
sounds more like inconsistent character writing on the part of moore

>>718817828
Could be wwii damage. The sculpture is part of bamberg cathedral in germany.

>>718818049
What if someone thought Saints were pagan idol worship or whatever and because of the command to destroy statues of pagan gods well, that justifies it basically.

Alan Moore is probably the only human on the planet whos more cynical, bitter and jaded than /v/. Why is that?

>>718818113
Arte

>>718818218
True this then, it also makes more sense than just the nose falling off on its own.

>>718815781 (OP)
If he went on that big of a rant about video games not being art.... then it's obvious he feels extremely threatened and insecure about their existence.

>>718818198
No, it's pretty intentional irony. The character who believes in black and white morality isn't a very good example of it himself. He says all violent criminals deserve to die yet he's a serial killer wanted by the police. If he truly never compromised he'd have killed himself before the comic even began.
>>718818236
Living under Thatcher, having all your shit stolen by DC, and having your wife leave you for a woman.

>>718818442
he's a literal communist, insecurity is part of his daily routine

>this was said by a comic book author
talk about punching down
>>718817252
>drumpf
>national socialist
If only. Why do these leftist faggots literally can't help it but live in delusion?

>>718818220
Then why did they conveniently ignore the other much more famous sculptures in the building completely?

Really old things get worn over time. Sculptures predictably fail in certain areas.

>>718818478
Does he say "criminal" explicitly? As in, someone who breaks the law? That would be stupid, since he clearly doesn't care for the law, which he must see as evil/corrupt. If he doesn't, but instead just means "people who X things I really don't like deserve to die" then it would be consistent.

>>718818478
>"The character who believes in black and white morality isn't a very good example of it himself. He says all violent criminals deserve to die yet he's a serial killer wanted by the police"
>erm, if you kill a killer, you become a killer too! hypocrite much?
really nigger

>>718815781 (OP)
Stop having an inferiority complex towards "art" you fucking retards.

>>718818585
Thought he said "soft on criminals" here but looked to refresh my memory and it was "soft on scum." I guess "scum" is subjective and you could say he doesn't fit his own definition no matter what, but then you're just being a narcissist.
>>718818729
If you're going to claim "There is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished, not even in the face of Armageddon will I compromise in this," yes, you can't be a hypocrite about it. If all killers deserve to die, and you're a killer, then guess what?

>>718815781 (OP)
But that's just, his opinion, man. Videogames are art and deserve the rcognition for it. There are plenty of games that stand the test of time and are being played by fans today; and that wasn't the case if there was no artistic vision behind them to carry them on through the generations.

>>718817252
thank you for confirming that moore is a retard anitiwhite lacking a brain.
saves me a lot of work.

>>718819228
He's white.

>>718815781 (OP)
>Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it.
>Nevertheless, I remain convinced that
Literally talking just to talk

>>718815781 (OP)
It depends on whether you think something that is mass produced and designed to be consumed by a large audience is art or not. Video games are certainly different from one of a kind statues that you can find in ancient temples.

>>718815781 (OP)
I'm sure niggas called movies and comic books "not art" when they were new. Those people were dumbfucks then and they're dumbfucks now.

>>718818930
>If you're going to claim "There is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished, not even in the face of Armageddon will I compromise in this," yes, you can't be a hypocrite about it. If all killers deserve to die, and you're a killer, then guess what?
because this is pointless gay posturing that doesn't accomplish anything
saying "oh my goodness you can't punish evil because violence is bad and therefore that makes you evil too!" is the stupidest shit imaginable that helps no one and only serves to stroke your own pretentious ego "yes look at me I'm so good and so moral, as innocent people around me are slaughtered but it's ok because philosophically, I'm the winner!"
even God punishes evil

>>718819607
Cinema and theatre can't be art but they can be culture, same should be with vidya gaming.

Why do psueds love pedantic bullshit like this >>718819694 so much?

>>718815781 (OP)
Did he even say this or is this just made up bullshit?

>>718819785
He is wrong about theater, but film isn't art, it is a product like Corn Flakes.

>>718819785
> YOU INSULTED MY CINEMA AND MAKE-BELIEF ON A STAGE! YOU HERETIC SPEUD!
kys.

>>718819981
Theatre is just literally just a few actors pretending to be someone else on the stage. I suppose bipolar psychosis episode is art to you.

>>718819248
are you familiar with the concept of suicide

>>718819952
Ebert said it, not Moore. Good on you for questioning it. God damn, you put a black and white photo with a quote next to it and most of the internet just accepts it as real.
https://www.rogerebert.com/roger-ebert/video-games-can-never-be-art
Original source. And obviously it's altered (changed to comic creator Jack Kirby instead of Rick Wakeman)
>Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool’s errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say “never,” because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form.

>>718815781 (OP)
>doesn't play videogames
>dismisses them as mere children's toys
He's not qualified to speak on the subject

>>718815781 (OP)
who?

>>718820136
oh the fat retard that at best is known for getting it wrong

>>718820170
Comic writer who wrote Watchmen and other famous stuff like The Killing Joke

>>718815781 (OP)
>HACKlan Moore

>>718820170
A fart sniffing boomer who doesn't like anything

>>718817768
>has to make a watered down version of mr. a to mock him
>people still like the guy
moore btfo

>>718815781 (OP)
Wasn't he jacking off and pumping cum with one hand while drawing Watchmen with the other, as Lawrence from Funhaus said?

>>718818198
you think moore writing an objectivist as inconsistent is unintentional?

>>718815781 (OP)
It was me, I sent him tons of suggestions and it was mostly hentai games like Rance and Baldur's Gate 3.

>>718820136
Celebrating 8 years of making the same thread. It's funny when it works at least

>>718818072
>Bomb enemies to end war
>Bomb your own people to prevent a war that didn't happen in our real life analog despite having more favorable conditions
Let's be honest. This wouldn't work. People would be suspicious after a DNA test.

>>718819981
If you don't include products as art then the term becomes so specific and applied so randomly that it's basically worthless and not the normal human usage of the term.
>>718820002
All it took was one post to reduce you to a screaming wreck.

>>718817252
I'll agree with him that capeshit is generally slop, but then blah blah Blonald Blumpf

>>718817539
Yui!

>>718815781 (OP)
No, he's a great writer, but he is also a pretentious, European ultraboomer. When he thinks of gaming he is probably thinking of Galaga, and isn't savvy enough to understand what goes into crafting such an experience, nor could he ever predict what the industry would eventually become.

The irony is he could write a story for one and it would probably be great, but he too far up his own ass to even consider it.

>>718815781 (OP)
I felt this way until I played Metroid and Tomb Raider.

You can argue its shit art but saying its not “art” at all is just fart sniffing

What's the vidya equivalent of For the Man Who Has Everything?

>>718820959
lol

>>718821395
Gex 2

>>718821079
I wasn't the one screaming, you were. You were the pseud all along, retard.
> Not my fucking trannies and dressing up as other characters NOOO! YOU CAN'T CALL THAT NOT ART! NOOO!!!
Drag shows aren't art.

>>718818236
Everyone on 4chan has character defects and personal problems. We wouldn't be here otherwise.

>>718821374
How we are still having conversation is a testament to how fucking gay this discussion is.

>>718818236
He's actually pretty jovial. This board has him beat by miles.

>>718815781 (OP)
Alan has never written anything good in his life

>>718820672
The problem with leftist propaganda satire is conservativism is objectively right and and infinitely cooler than being a tankie. It is only ridiculous to nu-males. Thus, Rorschach ends up looking like a hero and is the fan favorite for everyone who doesn't; want to willingly cut off their dick or work at Applebee's into their adulthood.

>>718815781 (OP)
Art is gay

>>718815781 (OP)
>>718815906
>>718815935
>>718816057
will you ever stop passing off roger ebert's writing as other academics'?

>>718815781 (OP)
I will never understand how this site hates Alan Moore but is willing to adopt a character of his as their persona to use as "le 4chan man" in protests and outside matters.

>>718815781 (OP)
Fake and Gay, I actually know Alan Moore and he likes video games. He secretly wrote multiple Sonic fanfics in AO3.

>>718815781 (OP)
>>718815781 (OP)
There is a myriad of what we can consider an art/art definitions, but I recon we can all agree that even if we consider slop like all comics, all games all tv series/movies, all paintings, ect. as art then we can agree that 99% of all of it is simply a bad art. When you look at it from this point, its apparent that of all the people that creates, theres maybe a few dozen hundered in each medium that can be considered a real artist - people that mastered the medium (brush, so to speak), are creative, innovative and their work is curious/invoke thought.
Im over old boomers/whiners that wants to shelve everything, in reality, you can find real art in everything, the problem is its scarece, while every piece of shit untalented hack titles themselves as artist and their work as one.
In reality art is very individual thing, its not the type of work that can flower in society, herd mentality and popularity kills the art and artist because it induce opinion pressure. The art isnt about speaking about it or trying to define it borders. Its a concept that thrives when its not uprooted and when its not depended on rules and policies, shelves.
Critics are all hacks, they need bad art much more than good art, because current reality revolves around grifters. Real artist shouldnt concern themselves with critique or defining what the art is (thats why all the artist that handle this topic fail miserebly) - the art dies the quickest when you talk about it in a favor of creating and expiriencing it.

>>718815781 (OP)
luckily I don't have to agree with every person about everything

>>718821395
Damn what a piece of shit

This board is as retarded as /tv/ and /co/. They fall for the same shit.

>>718821968
Is that like Homelander too

>>718815781 (OP)
True

>>718815781 (OP)
"Art" in games lie within the aesthetics of play. This is within a realm of philosophy which is beyond the grasp of grimderp retards like Moore and casuals on /v/ who only play movie games and 2deep4u rpg maker crap to understand. See Garry Kasparov's Brilliancy Prizes in chess, which were awarded to players with exceptional artistic and strategic elegance, as an example.

Why should I care about the opinion of some smelly Islamist hobo who drew misery fetish comics about rapist zombies?

>>718822272
Im not shelving moore as an artist but its a basic separation of the art/artist from his personality.
Thats why we have child molesters being acclaimed actors, writers, painters, directors ect. I aree with this notion because real art knows no boundaries and it can manifest itself even through most piece of shit human being alive. Should we ridicule, censor/burn his work?
Nope, enjoy it, just remember and dont ommit that tgis artist was a piece of shit in life.

People who want videogames to be art tend to also be the ones who dismiss any artistic merit for the most shallow reasonings.

It's so much easier to criticize than to understand anything.

>>718823004
yeah youre right, some real pieces of shit made some kino I happen to like,

>>718817252
>I haven’t seen a superhero movie since the first Tim Burton Batman film
But the Burton Batman movies were actually kino tho. Just goes to show what a pretentious faggot Moore is.

>>718817520
holy kek

>>718823318
Its very good as a gothic noir 90s action movie but he wasn't the audience for sure, he didn't even like superheros he just liked the story telling medium, that movie was full on "here is something new that's not 60's Batman" He did like his adaptation of his story in the Justice League Unlimited cartoon from what I hear.


>>718823274
meant for
>>718822979

>>718815906
Fpbp

>>718820959
>Doctor Ivo Robotnik
at least he's having fun with it
>tfw you read it in his voice

>>718817038
>Xbox Gaming Games Nintendo Are Art And Sony Cinema PC Master Race

>>718823318
>kino
Nothing of quality has ever been described by this word.

ironic statement from a comic book author

>>718816871
He didnt. Its Ebert's quote

alan moore is a fucking idiot who doesnt even understand the things he writes

>>718817340
>T-THEY'RE LEGALLY NOVELS!
And trannies are legally their new gender, is that your retarded faggot arugment?

/v/ really is just a bunch of fucking retards. No wonder they are turned into useful idiots so easily

>>718823691
Manga is better than comics.

I don't care about the opinions of journalists

>>718823728
manga (1990) > comics (1960) > comics (1990) > manga (1960) > manga (2020) > comics (2020)

>>718815781 (OP)
>bitter commie geezer who wrote capeshit for a living

Who fucking cares? Even the worst gacha game has more artistic merit than Watchmen. Moore's works are only good for toilet paper.

>>718817479
/v/ reached the point of terminal retardation years ago

>>718823691
Chuds really are the most easily manipulated and exploited people. Perfect soldiers for billionaires interested in keeping society focused on culture warring

>>718824046
Watchmen is actually good. There are no good gacha games.
Also its not his quote. You are a retard with awful taste and should kill yourself

>>718823728
Demonstrate one instance of innovative paneling in manga

>>718815781 (OP)
Videogames and movies are made by people who failed at everything else.

>>718817479
i don't care if its an ebert quote i just fucking hate moore
>you should hate him for the RIGHT reasons bro
i don't care

>>718815781 (OP)
>"Abloo bloo bloo bloo"
His original comics suck btw

>>718815781 (OP)
No, he was just the standard boomer fuck engaging in new=bad.

>>718824246
Show me one page in kodomo no jikan that isn't amazingly paneled.

>>718824246
[THE HEART]

>>718824163
Both sides suck the same dick. Both are pathetic.

>>718824731
>le both sides
Disagree. After Occupy Wallstreet, George Floyd and that whole gender nonsense, it's safe to say that leftists are the only true useful idiots.

>>718824206
>capeshit
>good

No such thing. If capeshit was good then it wouldn't be capeshit. It's an oxymoron. That leftist lunatic Moore especially is one of the worst writers to break out of that abortion of a genre.

>>718824206
>Watchmen is actually good
There's nothing good about cynical young adult fiction

Say what you will about alan moore, beyound the valley of the dolls was a great comic

>>718815781 (OP)
alan moore is a faggot

>>718818027
>It was supposed to be the last bastion for European culture, freedoms and civilization.

>>718824519
Post a page

>>718825559
/co/ has generated a considerable of brain rot, I see

>>718815781 (OP)
Why do you faggots need the videogames to be declared art?
To feel better about your fucked up neet lives spent chasing irrelevant achievements?

>>718815781 (OP)
aw another ragebait thread, freakin sweet

>"ART"
Reminder that the probably most known artist, "Picasso" is only big because he was one of the first artists that started to mass produce shit and purely turn art into a slop mass produced market.

>>718824163
Chuds hate Trump because of how philosemetic he is.

>>718815781 (OP)
This question has been debunked multiple times as the second someone asked to define art they either describe shit that has been shown/done in a game or dishonestly list things that are ingrained in gaming that don’t actually determine whether something is art or not as a medium that is considered art may lack the the same criteria and yet no one goes out of their way to dismiss it as not being art.

>>718815781 (OP)
Who the fuck is Alan Moore and why should I care about this old cunt’s retarded views on art? That’s a rhetorical question by the way, I don’t give a shit. Fuck you OP.

>>718825961
He’s the guy behind Watchman and V for Vendetta. He is notoriously curmudgeonly.

>>718823691
>>718824163
Is this what zero self awareness does to a mother fucker?

>>718815781 (OP)
he didn't say that you fucking idiots holy shit

>>718826117
This is a thread for shitting on /co/, no one actually cares.

>>718825635
Die mad about it pooskin. You'll never erase history.

>>718826117
You’re right it’s too smart to be Moore.

>>718817252
he's right that society has become infantile tho.

>>718826159
>talking about "white" persons
You fucking niggers can't even be racist properly. You're neither real Christians nor real Europeans, just golems.

>>718815781 (OP)
>>"Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it.
k bye

>>718826394
Post your hand with a timestamp.

>>718826159
You realize you aren't "white" unless you're anglo, right? And those very same anglos thought literal slaves had a greater capacity for being human than germans. (correct)

>>718815781 (OP)
I find it funny how he larps as some kind of literature auteur, yet he's known as nothing more than "that guy who wrote cool and edgy comic book" by comic book fans, and he's largely ignored in literature space

>>718815781 (OP)
Of course he did, as someone who also never managed to produce any kind of art and always stop at pretentious entertainment he should be trusted when it comes to recognise those like himself.

>>718820672
Moore didn't want people to hate him though
He made him flawed, but likable
I think he's a bit assmad that people don't notice his derange side and almost never speak about it

>>718825982
Where is he supposed to be standing if he has to turn around to see her go? The "thin vertical panel" makes it look like he has to look over his right shoulder to see her leave but the "holy shit big panel" makes it look like he's already facing her so he wouldn't have to turn his head much at all.

insanely strange for a guy who writes comic bookls to be saying this, 50 years ago most adults considered his "artform" be exclusively for children.

>>718825982
i've tried drawing some comics but when i try i usually tend to have a few panels per page than the average western comic

>>718815781 (OP)
I genuinely believe Metal Gear Solid shits on the entirety of superhero stories despite Kojima being a westaboo and it having goofy moments, a lot of stories not in that genre do actually not even just what I like

>>718815906
>>718817038
>he hates pulp
ishygdd

>>718815781 (OP)
Dude's just salty that he hasn't produced any art himself - as a comic book writer he gets neither the respect of proper authors, nor the admiration painters get.
Vicious cunt just adds rape to his every work, hoping for shock value.

>>718815781 (OP)
I want people to reject video game as a serious form of art, even if it truly is. The one thing that grinds my gears is pseudo-intellectuals using video games as a vehicle to try and lecture people. If video games enters the public conscious as a "serious" medium, we will see an even larger invasion of these hacks.

>>718826897
>Where is he supposed to be standing
It shows exactly where he is standing and his head pivots when she nails the landing off the rail and bolts down the street. Paneling like this simply doesn't exist in comics. Some of them have good art, to be sure, but western understanding of pacing and movement is bad. Planetary is the last comic I can remember that had decent paneling, (which is an otherwise mediocre read) whereas the above example is an ongoing current year manga. I would argue manga now is better than comics have ever been in their entire existence. This is partially over their insistence on being perceived as high art for mature adults which led to the mediums inevitable collapse due to being full of pseudointellectual fart sniffing and topical politics.

Games are not art because gamers will not let them be.

100% a community problem. Probably because a majority of them are just dopamine treadmills. It's fine though, it's whatever. If they are "art" then they can be "critiqued", and that's gay shit.

>>718815781 (OP)
"Art" is shit.
If art isn't entertaining then it serves no purpose. Art for the sake of art is vanity and pointless. Games shouldn't want to be art, because art is shit.

>>718827298
> I would argue manga now is better than comics have ever been in their entire existence
hell no.

Fake quote
From Hell shits on any vdeogame story ever made btw

>>718817675
>>718818049
>the group that would routinely cut off/slit actual peoples' noses to show them as being unworthy of holding power
>didn't cut the noses off statues of said people

>>718827551
You'd fit in on /a/. They want anime and manga to die to fulfill their perverse perceptions of aesthetics as well. Mostly because it's full of /co/ crossposters now. Personally, I'll keep actually enjoying things.

>>718827298
So he watches her go all the way down the rail and only turns when she bolts down the street? Why does he look like he had to turn his whole body to see her? He should already be facing her.
Watchmen has very deliberate pacing and paneling. One of the major themes in Watchmen is repression and this is expressed through the restrictive panel scheme and the slower pace. It all builds to the final issue.
There is very little actual information in the manga page you posted. All I learn is that she is good at skating and he is impressed. The page from Watchmen tells you almost everything you need to know about the two characters and their relationship. You can feel the resentment from Rorschach and Dan's loneliness and unease.

>>718827885
>Why does he look like he had to turn his whole body to see her?
Because he's standing at the end of a hallway exit that pivots to a staircase. This is genuine dunning krueger behavior. Last reply because now you're squirming.

>>718820136
>God damn, you put a black and white photo with a quote next to it and most of the internet just accepts it as real
>"Point number one, Andrew Beckett was - is a brilliant lawyer, great lawyer. Point number two, Andrew Beckett, afflicted with a debilitating disease, made the understandable, the personal, the legal choice to keep the fact of his illness to himself. Point number three, his employers discovered his illness, and ladies and gentlemen, the illness I am referring to is AIDS. Point number four, they panicked. And in their panic, they did what most of us would like to do with AIDS, which is just get it, and everybody who has it, as far away from the rest of us as possible. Now, the behavior of Andrew Beckett's employers may seem reasonable to you. It does to me. After all, AIDS is a deadly, incurable disease. But no matter how you come to judge Charles Wheeler and his partners in ethical, moral, and in human terms, the fact of the matter is, when they fired Andrew Beckett because he had AIDS, they broke the law."
What did Jackie Chan mean by this

>>718827367
its only a problem to people who are insecure about having video games as a hobby and need it to be something more for social cred

>>718828002
He is at the top of the stairs facing her back as she goes down. She breaks right once she reaches the bottom of the stairs. He would have to turn maybe thirty degrees to the right to see her go. He would not need to do some whip turn over his right shoulder which is clearly what is implied by the panel. You also can't defend how little we actually learn from this page.

>>718827885
nta but he's literally watching her go down the stairs then turns as she pivots 90 degrees on the landing. are you actually retarded? no wonder comics are shit.

>>718828335
No, you don't get it. 40 pages of in a row of standard layout monologuing is good paneling.

>>718817520
>It does.
In small, homogeneous communities, where everyone knows everyone.

What does this fucking boomer know anyways? I'm going to use my liberal arts degree and government grants and show him how artistic video games can be.

>>718827885
>expressed through the restrictive panel scheme
>It's bad on purpose
It's like I'm in a morrowind thread.

>>718817038
>long form graphic novels and not serialized pulp trash
They were literally capeshit.

>>718828335
Draw a right triangle. Make the ratio between the legs 10:1 and then measure the angle opposite the smaller leg.
>>718828431
You don't understand art. You just want something to feed your ADD.

>>718815781 (OP)
If art is something you can wipe your ass with, sure.

>>718828594
mind boggling

>>718828787
So I'm right. He wouldn't need to turn that fast to see her.

>>718828904
So you're retarded and just trolling, got it

>>718828949
See how long it takes you to turn 45 degrees (assuming the accuracy of your image).

>>718828594
Man this is something else. Should /co/ be deleted?

>>718827797
i just want good manga and comics again

>>718815781 (OP)
why are you trying to make alan moore speak with the words of a hack fraud like ebert?

>>718829062
What's wrong with Kingdom?
>It's popular, the most popular seinen manga ever made
>like 850 chapters and going
>good art, characters and storytelling
>shueisha publication so dumb toonami normaltards can follow it

>>718815781 (OP)

>Alan Moore can only make derivative fanfic slop, makes silver age homages to pay the bills

>>718815781 (OP)
Hagrid is out of his debt here, I still respect him.

>>718823728
They're both terrible mediums.
I've seen way too many long-running manga crash and burn at the end. Pretty much all of them do. The way it's produced, with an insane schedule every week for a single mangaka and a few assistants and/or a writer if they're lucky, is not conducive to proper storytelling.
Even the quickest mangaka takes years to tell the same amount of story that a novel author can in a month.
AI and digitalization will kill manga anyway in the next 10-20 years. I say good riddance!

>>718823728
From Hell destroys any manga

>>718829618
>The way it's produced, with an insane schedule every week for a single mangaka
You're replying to an image of an independently published manga on a monthly schedule (at best) which got popular enough to receive a hit anime adaptation.

>>718815781 (OP)
He’s a pedophile that thought Soviet Russia was going to be the dominant force of the world.

No one should care what he thinks.

>>718815781 (OP)
out of touch rich pedo fag who whines at any attempt to try to materially improve conditions for the working class as "fascism"

>>718826596
>those very same anglos thought literal slaves had a greater capacity for being human than germans
that doesn't make any sense. where do you think anglo-saxons are originally from you retarded tranny?

>>718830346
>that doesn't make any sense
>history has to retroactively change because it doesn't line up with my idpol

>>718815781 (OP)
>Did he make a valid point?
Nah, old man yells at cloud. Clearly never played an Ueda game. Moore is a retard, wrote some good comics though.

>>718830473
As a bonus here's a painting of an Anglo heroically on his way to slaughter some kraut animals in their sleep

>>718830473
anglos are just self-hating germans

>>718830739
Then I guess the history of this country doesn't line up with your perceptions. Federalism is a byproduct of interactions with the Iroquois after all, or are you going to tell me they're secretly German as well? It's all so asinine, you've clearly never read any American classic literature or actual history. All this racial nonsense trickling in from /pol/ is baseless ideology designed to make people stupid and angry, it's exactly like radicalism on the left. Makes you worry for the future of politics, as opposing sides have become so vapid and stagnant synthesis is impossible. Just endless cyclical squabbling as the status quo marches on.

>>718830473
>Faced with a legal document
>Responds with an opinion piece
cool

>>718831128
>it's exactly like radicalism on the left
So true fellow normal person, we've always been multicultural, and everyone who says otherwise is just a fascist racist nazi.

>>718831251
Yep, dumb template response straight from hotwheelschan, just as I expected, just like a literal NPC executing a script. Next you're gunna tell me you're australian.

>>718815781 (OP)
If you support video games being art, you're a retard. Because this is how the blue haired trannies ruin games.

You should see video games as a corporate product, and that they have to pander to you as a customer. If you don't, then don't complain when they put tranny shit and all the other shit you hate in the game.

>>718815781 (OP)
>Did he make a valid point?
But he refused to make a point. He threw out an uneducated opinion, then refused to elaborate.
Literally just bait.

>>718815781 (OP)
>never (...) is a long, long time
"never" isn't a time at all u bearded tard

>Bills his entire latter career on magicianship and sincere promotion of what they call magickal ideas
>Believes that all art is literally magic, but refuses to acknowledge video games as art
Is this why Snape killed Dumbledore?

>>718831437
>>718815781 (OP)
This is a Roger Ebert quote. It's 2 AM here and I didn't finish reading it. Fuck you, OP.

>>718831317
Why would you think stupid shit like "yes, our (meaning white peoples', not yours) forefathers wanted their country for their progeny (also white people) is exactly like leftists trying to erase your native populace with hordes of niggers" is deserving of an effortpost? You're a subhuman brown masquerading as a centrist. Please die in agony.

>>718818930
it's simple
>all killers deserve to die UNLESS i approve of it. naturally, i approve of myself when i kill others.
checkmate, atheist.

>>718821547
It's 2025 everyone has problems. Go on instagram, facebook or any other normie social media and check for yourself. If anything, 4chan is a refuge for whatever semi normal people are left. That is not to say there aren't severe mentally deranged cases on the regular here, but normies are fucked in the head.

There are plenty of artsy indie games that Moore would like (and that I wont, because gameplay is king and art doesnt belong in vidya)
The thing is he probably gets normalfag recommendations like Nier Automata or Zelda

>>718831521
Why should blacks and Jews care about whites? Why shouldn't they consider you cattle and preserve you?

The amount of people ITT who don't know who Moore is makes me feel old and I'm only 32.

>>718815781 (OP)
I don't give a shit about what this smelly hobo has to say, the only mildly interesting thing he accomplished was seeing John Constantine irl and he didn't even follow him

>>718815781 (OP)
>countless art assets
>put them all together into a game and it stops being art

>>718815781 (OP)
I can understand if he said this in 1982 or something, but by 2000 this statement is blatantly out of touch with modernity.

people desperately trying to make games artistic to appear mature ruined gaming and I'm tired of pretending otherwise

>>718817252
>This may be entirely coincidence but in 2016 when the American people elected a National Socialist satsuma and the UK voted to leave the European Union, six of the top 12 highest grossing films were superhero movies. Not to say that one causes the other but I think they’re both symptoms of the same thing – a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions.
When Hitler rose to power there were no super hero movies, what kind of retarded argument is that?

>>718817093
I mean you can look at the history of art and see that it's definition has been debated, instead of making something up.

>>718818027
If America has always been fascist then maybe fascism isn't as bad as its detractors say it is.

>>718831961
Hey now that's the attitude I want to see. I'd love it if we could just all go mask off already and stop pretending already.

>>718829618
Why would AI and digitalization kill manga? If anything it'll make it bigger and more accessible.

>>718817687
>So getting back to the question "Can games be art?" (which to make sense of we now read as "Can games be good?"),
No. Reducing the question to one about quality defeats the whole purpose of the debate and any nuance or insights it could provide. Art doesn't mean quality, and there are a lot of ways something can be good unrelated to its artistry.

Simply put, art doesn't just mean something humans made, because there's a lot of things we make, some of them unconsciously, that do not fall in line with what most people would think is art (even the ones who say "everything" is art). So then art at the very least must be something that we make intentionally for some purpose, even if we all can't agree what that purpose is. And no, something like the Fountain doesn't prove anything and everything is art, but that we can take anything and put it through the artistic process.

>movies are art
>somehow movies but better aren't

>>718815781 (OP)
it still gives me goosebump literally none of, literally any of lib 'artist's never ever never ever never ever ask redemption of their deed, for raping gazillion teenage kiddos and the social regression, honestly? it's why boomers & gen x nigger should eat dick and die, you fucking degenerate faggots never regret anything for the consequences you brought,
we should go nursing home for elderly and gut, castrate, eat them alive, of course including grannys, these motherfuckers deserve cruel death, not comfortable death on the bed, billions of elderly should die tragic as possible

Art is simply self expression, the value of how "artistic" something is, lies in how much it makes you think or feel, if i watched two sad movies and cried while watching one but was bored while watching the other then one is a better movie then the other because it achieved it's goal, if you watched a third sad movie but it made you laugh then it's bad art but still entertaining, it can't be unintentionally good art though because art is largely about intention imo.
Video games like overwatch TF2 and marvel rivals are not art, they're games in the strictest sense, effectively they're no different then playing football or basketball, fun and entertaining but not art
Games like metal gear undertale and the like are art because they were made to express certain ideas and or emotions, they're "very artistic" because they succeeded in doing that imo.
>inb4 ">undertale" "lmao"
Beauty is in the art of the beholder and all of that, if you played undertale but didn't feel anything or played metal gear and didn't think of any of the ideas or understand them then they're bad art to you, not every piece of art is made for everyone same way how not every game genere is fun for everyone

I like Alan Moore and I respect his opinions in matters that he has clearly mediated on a lot. But he's a grumpy old man who lives in self-imposed isolation from reality. He's awesome for that. His books on magic and history are always great, but video games and the craft of video games is alien to him.

Sure, if you look at the AAA industry, full to the brim with half baked film scripts stubbornly padding their runtime with generic gameplay and gambling systems you'd dismiss it outright. Even looking at the darling "indie art games" with their sophomoric ideas and polemics you might think it's still in if infancy when it comes to expressing ideas.

But these are negative traits to be used as criticism, not cancelling aspects. A film doesn't stop being art because of product placement or a clunky script. It might be bad art, but it's subjective to taste and experience.

The art of videogames is in its interactive nature. The thought out ideas that make the player feel a certain way or even discover something of themselves. A fucking board game is art. Alan Moore even admits that everything is inherently inert until humans bring their attention to it. Tarot Cards were just gypsy playing cards that people attributed mysticism to. We look at fine portraits of nobelmen as art because they inform us of the history and taste of the time they were painted - but they were still made as commercially as you might imagine.

>>718829618
>AI
Can be helpful to the artist and also make translation easier.
>Digitalization
Manga chapters get released simultaneously worldwide, no leaks, high quality scans become permanent, colored versions of manga or pages become more common, manga becomes more accessible.

I see those things only making manga stronger.

>>718833061
this but only for elderly artists

We have this thread everyday with a different person being attributed the quote each time, and it always gets hundreds of replies. This board is a joke.

>>718832803
Don't think you're good, snowflake, the Jews and non-whites have a reason to harass you.

He hasnt played *ultra pretentious 80% cut scene game*

>>718817462
>>718817520
>>718828451
In a group of like 10 people, and the other 9 are deathly afraid of the 10th, maybe.

>>718833550
Yeah that reason is subhumans seethe over white excellence. So sorry about giving you the wheel and indoor plumbing, Rajeet.

>>718833529
I liked the absurdity of having it be Michael McDonald.

>>718817252
It will never stop being funny that the guy who spent his life posing as an esotericist and an enlightened hermit gets so concerned about petty political issues.

>>718815781 (OP)
I mean, that's his opinion. But I kinda agree. Video games are games, not art. That doesn't make them any lesser. I mean, sports are games and people still love them for what they are.
You don't need the recognition of old cristy snob ""author"" to be valid.

Alan Moore is a joyless cunt, give me a modern day CS Lewis instead.

>>718815781 (OP)
he's right
true art requires skill and dedication like writing, composing, sculpting etc
vidyas are none of that, it doesn't provide that uniform freedom that comes with the aforementioned skills

>>718815781 (OP)
also gamers are the dumbest troglodytes on the internet, slightly above normies and niggers and its also why /v/ is one of the lowest iq boards

>>718817093
>he thinks his vidya are on the same level as a true craft
LMAO you niggers are stupid cattle who don't know anything
if your main hobby is gaming you have nothing worthwhile to say

>>718826862
I guess that's what happens when you give a character a surprisingly heroic ending.

A lot of games have better stories than what King midwit ever produced.

>>718821968
>conservativism is objectively right and and infinitely cooler than being a tankie
I agree that tankies are retards, but it's always funny rading genetic dead ends nerds on 4chan larp as christcuck with conservative values, when they spend their day between anime porn and videogames.
Nevermind that the idea of "conservative values" is shaped entirely around 1 or 2 decades of Americana fantasy in the 50s and 60s, and most of human history is complete chaos.
But in this sense tankies are the exact same, living through a fantasy of communism that never happened or, when it did, killed more people than any other retarded ideology.

>>718820136
I'm pretty sure most anons know, but just don't care because they wanted to talk about Moore and art. It's like those quotes that are posted with an image of Miyazaki.

>>718833061
ehh just burn them all

>>718827080
A few panels more or a few panels less anon?

>>718815781 (OP)
He's right. Vidyagames aren't art, but they're the perfect blend of all forms of media and can be a great source of inspiration for actual art.

>>718835525
a few panels less

>>718835341
People should try to live up to the 50s rather than bitch about it endlessly. Tankies would've been losers in the 50s though (the decade wasn't kind to lazy drug addicts) so I can see why they don't like it, it's worse being a loser in a world of winners.

you guys realize this quote is fake right? am i the only one who bothers to use google around here?

>>718836667
yea, you're the only one, that's why you're the 30th person to point this out in this very thread

>>718818570
you live in a delusion

>>718817038
Sony and Xbox should be switched. Nintendo doesn't feel right as Dr. Pepper, but since it can't be in the same category as the other two, I can't think of anything better.

>>718817252
>right wingers are immature for liking superhero entertainment
>left wingers are enlightened for seeing me, a geriatric anarchist superhero comics book writer, as a political pundit

>>718817252
>a denial of reality and an urge for simplistic and sensational solutions
he's the one in denial because that's what we need right now
no sane person would get in the modern demo-bureucratic system and fight tooth and nails against a game that was rigged from the start

>>718833332
I find it funny whenever someone mentions AI in manga drawing as if it's some far off experimental concept when I read the slopfest known as Kengan Omega where the artist does that and he clearly hates his fucking life

It never fails to make me laugh that Alan Moore's favourite Watchmen adaptation is Harry Partridge's Saturday Morning Watchmen

>>718833550
What a cartoonish reply. It's the verbal equivalent of shaking your fist and saying you'll be back someday.

What a great way to communicate to lurkers that your own position is indefensible.

>>718836950
Care to elaborate?

>>718832997
he's not talking about quality at all. in fact, he pushes the idea that all artistic value resides in the emotion and opinion we perceive from it
which makes way more sense than giving some logical, arbitrary definition to art, the most emotionally driven and illogical of all human creations

>>718815781 (OP)
True, they are a medium for other forms of art just like movies, therefore movies are also not a form of art.

>>718815781 (OP)
BASED AND TRUE.

>>718815781 (OP)
This person is a hack, a complete retard and a pervert to boot.
Why anyone takes him seriously it's a mystery.

>>718817768
I never understood why they felt the need to kill TruthMan, you WILL have people who will second guess what happened so it's better to give them their Alex Jones that is already known for being a fringe extremist to discredit this story.

>>718838168
>which makes way more sense than giving some logical, arbitrary definition to art
The whole of human history is taking vague ideas, giving them names and then exploring them. You do this because there's some latent meaning in the world that only takes shape when we give it parameters. Obviously the art debate is one that gets to something about the core human experience because it keeps getting brought up. The problem is, you have people trying to develop some framework of understanding what art is, and then you have people who have no real interest in the conversation who come in only when the debate crosses their social media feed and trash the conversation with their "anything can be art! you can't define art!" statements. These aren't actually interesting ideas. It's very surface level.

>>718816871
>comic book artist
LMAO

>>718815781 (OP)
HE'S RIGHT. YOU LOST. HE WON.

>>718817093
An article can be art (but usually isn't or is just bad art, especially the more it leans towards informing or trying to convince the reader of an opinion) and the banana is very funny art that should have rotten away on the wall it was taped to.
The truth of the matter is that art is actually a stupidly broad spectrum, and all of those examples are meaningful. It's just that we like to take on double standards to extol the things we think are "higher art" or deeper in meaning.

>>718815781 (OP)

All these replies and nobody pointed out that this is a famous Roger Ebert quote with a few words changed. Alan Moore never said anything about videogames.

>>718815781 (OP)
>Use The Force Harry.jpg
/v/ will literally believe anything. No wonder you fags love grifters and e-celebs

>>718815906
FPBP

>>718840235
Tbh, its still correct. And remember, Ebert was not a "no fun allowed snob". In fact, he liked superhero movies, some of them at least by sheer fun factor.

I don't think he said that.

However, Boomers' opinion on games is genuinely that they're intimidating because they don't understand how the controllers work, and so they want nothing to do with them. They just want to watch really really shit TV, because it's within their comfort zone.
Don't ever let them talk down to you. It's like someone who has never had sex trying to tell you how it works.

The idea that something interactive can't have artistic value or be a true expression of one person's soul is plainly wrong.

>>718841608
No, it's wrong and Ebert was talking out of his ass, on a topic he knew nothing of. He imagined that you can experience game by looking at a few minutes of video of it, which is the equivalent of saying you can judge a movie by looking at the VHS cover. He was not equipped to discuss the subject at all given how, by his own admission, he has never played a videogame in his life.

>>718815781 (OP)
>taking video game advice from a literally who boomer

I don't think he said that. Moore is fully the kind of guy who would pretend he thinks video games have potential, and then never play one.

However, Boomers' opinion on games is genuinely that they're intimidating because they don't understand how the controllers work, and so they want nothing to do with them. They just want to watch really really shit TV, because it's within their comfort zone.
Don't ever let them talk down to you. It's like someone who has never had sex trying to tell you how it works.

>>718815781 (OP)
I love Alan Moore and his work, but no, he did not.
While I don't disagree whatsoever that the overwhelming majority of games are products first and works of art second, I don't believe that anyone alive today will die before the medium produces anything of artistic merit.
This is really an astoundingly stupid thing for someone who works in comics to say, honestly.

>>718815781 (OP)
Alan Moore never said this. He did I believe say something along the lines that Comic Book isn't art and famously hated to call his comics "graphic novels" which was an entirely marketing term
I don't think he has much of an opinion on vidya, but knowing him, it wouldn't surprise me if he thought video games were more artistic than comic books

>>718815906
Correct, which is why Moore himself looks down on comic books

>>718816871
That's because this is literally just Ebert's quote copy and pasted

>>718817038
>His graphics novels are good reads
You do realize if you called it a graphic novel in his face he'd slap you?
Also he admired the pulpiness of comic books, you're confusing him with hacks like Ennis

>>718817252
I genuinely despise Ennis more than anyone else in the British Comic Book Writer groups. Moore is a little pretentious but writes good stories overall, Ellis is a faggot but Transmetropolitan was good and he wrote the first Dead Space.
There is nothing good about Ennis' work, at best he did a few decent Punisher stories, but that's it. And even then, he completely ruined the Punisher just to make a point about how vigilantes that shoot everyone are better than superheroes. There wouldn't be much wrong with that position if he didn't shit and piss his pants and get mad when cops proceeded to adapt the imagery of the Punisher and try to imitate him. He quite literally gets what he wants because he hates "goody-two-shoes" and then gets mad when real world authorities imitate that. He's a literal manchild who pisses his pants when the consequences of his actions rear their ugly head to him. At least Moore's dumb comments come from interviews, everything Ennis writes is retarded.
I am not even gonna get started on Ennis' retarded beliefs and politics about religion and fundamentally misunderstanding religion or why someone would even be religious.
I'd go as far as to say that Ennis is one of the big reasons why comic books are dogshit now.

>>718842425
it's not wrong, it just can't happen for him because he doesn't know how to relate to it, it doesn't translate because it can't
it has no meaning for him, it may have meaning for you

>>718844149
If I remember, Moore's point about graphic novels is they're a distinct medium. Comic books are serialized. A graphic novel is a novel with illustrations.
Moore's graphic novel was From Hell. Swamp Thing and Watchmen were comic books he worked on.

Who cares? It's all useless semantics.

>>718831521
>You're a subhuman brown masquerading as a centrist.
I'm a white man that's been a registered republican for 18 years. You're an Australian that got groomed on hotwheelschan. Now what, kid?

>>718845254
There is a point that graphic novel was a term people latched onto for a while, because it sounded grown up.
There is such a thing as a graphic novel, but then there's called Spiderman a graphic novel, because you're insecure about your hobbies.

Alan Moore is a communist, so who cares?

>>718817768

This story predicted anti-maskers

>>718832997
>So then art at the very least must be something that we make intentionally for some purpose,
... find me something made with no purpose in mind? This reminds me of that time one guy said that to be art something must have a message. Everything has a fucking message. Even Space Invaders had a message "Protect the Earth"? And who is to say that one message is less important than another? What could possibly be more important than the survival of the human race? So if a purpose or message qualify as art, then it's comically wide a word that it's a completely worthless one.

Loved Watchmen and V for Vendetta
what are some good books from him?

>>718815781 (OP)
He can kiss a tip of my gun if he wants
>in minecraft

>>718846660
Find something better to read

>>718846739
The Killing Joke was pretty good. From hell as well

>>718846882
your post is useless

>>718844436
The problem I have here is that if art can be defined at all, then the definition wouldn't be what others think of it, but of what the creator intended it to be.

>>718846958
Stunting people's growth by telling them to read garbage is useless. There is not a single good comic. I can tell you this from experience because I read everything /co/ sings praises of when it actually came out. All comics are for edgy and confused teens.

where my video gamers at?

>>718815781 (OP)
Literal years of Roger Ebert threads and yet I NEVER see people bring up the fact that this wasn't even his final position. He literally conceded his point later on. How fucking dead does a horse need to be before you stop beating it? It's rotted away and disintegrated into the ground. You're just beating the dirt now.

>>718847090
>Stunting people's growth by telling them to read garbage is useless.
You don't grow from reading a good comic the way you do a good novel. But they can be undeniably entertaining.

>>718848871
>But they can be undeniably entertaining.
No.

>>718847090
/co/ has shit taste. Read Eurocomics like Corto Maltese or XIII or even Blacksad.
Fair warning though, don't read anything Corto Maltese not written by Pratt, it's shit.

>>718815781 (OP)
as time passes he's only being proven right though. nobody takes videogames seriously as an art form. not the critics, not the developers, and especially not the players. everyone will always view them as toys, and even the ones that people view as having artistic merit the same people will call outdated for simply being 20 years old. you can read shakespeare and dante and still feel awe-inspired, but there's not a single videogame that will survive 100 years.

>>718849171
Well, to each his own. Do you dislike manga as well?

>>718822009
So gay is art?

>>718846660
Swamp Thing is a pretty good read.

games aren’t art
cope seethe dilate

Hes right.
Art doesnt get censored

You can have a marble statue of Zeus raping a girl and no one would bat an eye

You can do the same with Vidya

>video games are not a serious form of art
>but my dumbass comic books are basically monet paintings
no he's wrong and fuck alan moore

>>718815781 (OP)
No. Any form of work can be a work of art, or in simpler terms, expression.

But making a game as a form of "art" does not excuse it being completely fucking shitty or just a walking simulator- unless the point of the art is to be a bad video game, in which case it is objectively ugly since subjective beauty is retarded gay nonsense made by godless jews.

>>718817768
Situational ethics man is the true hero.

His only mistake was not just blowing up all of the USA. Wipe it off the map and end the Cold War.

>>718849748
>Do you dislike manga as well
No, usogui is a masterpiece

>>718815781 (OP)
Alan Moore is such an old man

>>718849214
>/co/ has shit taste. Read Eurocomics like Corto Maltese or XIII or even Blacksad
You are exactly the reason /co/ is shit

>>718849214
i found out like some months ago that there was a corto maltese cartoon
i have it but it isnt translated from the french
has it been translated from the french recently?

>>718850813
no it isn’t, it’s fag shit

>>718815781 (OP)
Neither are ‘graphic novels’

Name a single novel that Alan Moore wrote.

>>718815781 (OP)
Is this a real quote?

Either way, probably correct. Granted, I think some indie games get close.

>>718851125
indie slop can’t be art

>>718818236
He actually created something.

>>718851153
I half agree.

AAA games are in a worse place than Indie though.

>>718851042
He's written three.
Voice of the Fire, Jerusalem, and The Great When: A Long London Novel

>>718851278
games will NEVER be art

Why do we have to have a thread like this every day?

I’m sure you could find a quote from some fag who thinks canvas paintings or music aren’t art. Who fucking cares?

>>718851434
tranime can’t be art

>I made a sweeping statement about an entire medium and refuse to ever defend my statement or engage with the medium such that I can be convinced that my sweeping statement is false
So why does this statement matter? "Film is incapable of being art, I've seen Jack and Jill and that was enough to convince me that the medium is an entirely wasteful endeavor and will continue to immerse myself singularly in Finnegan's Wake analysis until I die" is a statement that nobody on this earth would take seriously, but a comic book """writer""" says it, and now the world needs to stand still?

>>718851434
it's an extremely useless conversation because video games are art. they fit the description of the word art. they are art. thats it. it's such a dumb conversation.

>>718851638
they literally cannot be art and will never be art, you just need to accept this simple fact and move on and stop being a faggot

>>718815781 (OP)
I don't care about games being art. Couldn't care less about the artistic merit of games as I only care more about the different ways in which games can be played and enjoyed. I wish stuff like VR and AR would become advanced enough to surpass the shit seen in Digimon, dot Hack or SAO. I wish this art debate would end and appreciate video games for the things that the medium could achieve that other forms of media cannot accomplish. Anything can be artistic; therefore, I don't think being artistic is anything special. But being able to remove the boundaries between the real world and that of fantasy is something that ONLY video games can hope to achieve.

Plus, video games can be enjoyed as an artistic medium like any form of entertainment, but video games can also be enjoyed competitively whether its PVP, arcade high scores, achievement hunting. It can be enjoyed with friends even if they're on the other side of thr planet. And games themselves are modular thanks to modding, emulation, and the many different ways games can be played these days. Those are things that video games have over art, music, comics, manga, etc, and I wish people would appreciate these aspects of gaming instead of being hyper fixated on artistic merit.

Also, super hero comic books are fucking shit. They are literal slop, and comic book writers are among the most spiteful, hate-filled creators in the industry. They HATE their fans and actively try to shit on them. At least game devs who shit on fans eventually meet their day of reckoning while respectful game devs make it. If the comic book industry functioned as it should, then talentless hacks like Dan Slott, Nick Lowe, Brian Michael Bendis, Zeb Wells and Tom Brevoort would be blacklisted from the industry. The amount of damage these men did to Spider-Man, Superman and the X-Men is irrepairable. With Spider-Man, it's even crazier that Stan Lee publicly disavowed OMD with pic related, yet these hacks think they know better.

>>718851872
funnily enough the game devs who hate people who enjoy games are always the pretentious indie fags who want games to be seen as art the most

>serious form of art
Completely true, if someone wants to make a statement they write a novel, an article or something else.

No game has ever affected politics in a meaningful way.

>>718851812
i personally do not care, i emotionally checked out of this conversation literally 2 decades ago. im just here seeing how it's developed. and it hasnt. same arguments from both sides. but yeah, they're art.

>>718852178
>Implying most AAA games don't despise the player

>with each decade, IRL net navis are becoming a reality
>faggots are still yapping about art

>>718852693
Who cares? Most AAA games are flops that nobody plays.

>>718852509
cared enough to try and claim they were art ITT
>>718852693
AAA devs has the same type of libshit fags

>>718852753
yeah but the navis are going to all be pre existing characters and fetish bait like a vrchat room, not sovlful MMBN designs

>>718851872
Wasn't Spiderman breaking up with his wife mostly Joe Quesada?

>>718824246
https://mangadex.org/chapter/20e76d23-e317-4740-b4c2-d4ccac25dca9/36
https://mangadex.org/chapter/20e76d23-e317-4740-b4c2-d4ccac25dca9/37

im aware this sort of thing has been done in COMICS before

>>718815781 (OP)
Comics have such low standards that this gay hobo retard is seen as a genius.

>>718853429
read wtachmen

>>718817038
>Good thing his "comic books" were long form graphic novels
So comic books then.

>>718817252
Smart people are caustically bitter about how their know-it-all ideas can never catch root because they're all cunts.

>>718817462
>Communism doesn't work!
>But capitalism does because I said so.

>>718828451
Like the USSR and China, where it massive improved the standards of living for everybody.

>>718817093
>a banana taped to the wall isn't art.

I think it is, and give me a chance to explain why.

I'm not an artist or an academic, but I have a lot of friends who are artists and I spend a lot of time consuming all kinds of art and thinking about art. To me, art is any expression (I used to think deliberate, now I'm not sure) of your inner world: Your thoughts, feelings, opinions - taken from inside of you and communicated to the outside world.

The example you gave of a banana or any contemporary art tends to get people thinking "what the fuck is this dogshit? It takes no skill. It's not art" but you're looking at art's value as an expression of technical skill, and as a final product. The process of making art itself can be (and often is - look up process art) part of the art. The message the artist is trying to convey is part of the art. The place where it's placed, the time context - all of these elements are relevant to understanding art. There's definitely beautiful art that's designed to just be aesthetically appealing, that looks realistic and is an expression of technical skill, but not all art is designed for that specific purpose.


If you want, we can talk about this particular painting and I can try to defend it, but you're welcome to attack it and tell me why you think it sucks as well. I'm not very articulate, but I think it's totally reasonable for you to think it's awful. I'd just enjoy talking about it

>>718835918
Cool

>>718817252
>cranky old man blames the symptom and not the cause
tale as old as time
blood and soil you dumb faggot

>>718835918
looks like shit

>>718853374
Yes, but Tom Brevoort and Nick Lowe have doubled down on OMD while being more spiteful than Quesada.

>>718853908
Capitalism has hundreds of real life examples as evidence of it working.
Communism has none.

>>718850992
Why do fags get all the best things? Its not looking good for chuds

>>718815781 (OP)
So you’re just going to attribute the Ebert quote to random people now?

>>718834895
>>he thinks his vidya are on the same level as a true craft
Yeah? Why not?
Why do you elevate the concept of "craft" to mythical status? Is what a portrait painter does really so much more lofty than a 3d artist or a level designer?

>>718832483
Only in the past two centuries really. Before that fine artists were understood to be craftsmen.
"Fine art" being art that is purely for aesthetic enjoyment. Nobody was confused about this. Now we have morons who think they're being insightful completely changing the meaning of the word.

>>718857804
yeah, AIDs rules!

>>718854324
>art is any expression of your inner world
And I say this is complete nonsense. Art is literally the same thing as craft. Art is latin, craft is germanic.
Now we have absolute tools knocking over buckets of sand and calling it "performance art."

Let's be real. If you call anything that is not theatre "performance art" then you have lost the plot.

>>718858757

Are you making an etymological argument to substantiate your idea about what art is? I don't really find that satisfying. We're just arguing the semantics of the word itself rather than what art really means practically. Can you explain why you think my definition is nonsense? In a practical sense, when you look at everything both regular people and academics consider art to be, it seems to fall under my definition.

Craft certainly can and often IS art, but so is that performance where you knock a bucket over, or explode a paint pellet onto the canvas. Some art is alive and kinetic instead of static.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythm_0 <-- is a great example. The artist in question isn't really crafting anything or using technical skill, but she had an idea that she wanted to express that required an ongoing process and audience participation. Both the people collaborating with the process and the audience at home can get different ideas from what's going on. The most direct interpretation it's shining a light on how anonymity helps you avoid responsibility. What do you think?

>>718859145
Im not saying art is defined by it's own word's etymology. But it is tied to it. We use that word because it indicates what art is.

My problem with your definition is that it's much too permissive. Nearly all human action can be interpreted as art under your definition.

At the very least "art" must be tied to the making of something. That's why chefs and playwrights are artists. That's also why stonemasons and architects are artists.
If I wanted to be very specific i'd use Aquinas' definition. "Recta Ratio Factibilium." Right reason in making things.

Simply conveying information is not art.

>>718859820
Not that anon, but would you classify speechcraft as an art?

I got some art for you faggots to debate over
*unzips dick*

>>718859970
Brutish, diseased, and mutilated. A strong statement on the destructive powers of American life.

>>718815781 (OP)

>>718818627
Threads like these are every reason why gaming continue to be viewed as a joke.

>>718860089
>art is when women aren’t sexy
Man we gotta go back and tell basically every artist ever to cut the boobs off their women

>>718859953
No. That's just a skill.
Draughtsmanship is not art, but drawings certainly are.

>>718860156
You continue to miss the point while soulless gachaslop that predates on the lowest denominator continues to run rampant and gain traction. The catalog gets flooded daily with inconsequential posts that discuss nothing about games but simply act as conduits for porn posting.

This is why gaming will never be viewed as art. People do not appreciate gaming as the artform, they are appreciating the porn as an artform.

>>718817252
>superhero movies made people childish and retarded so they voted trump into office

>>718860667
seethe roastoid

Alan Moore matters and so does vidya

>>718815781 (OP)
Videogames are not art, they're toys. The fact that they're not art is proven by the test of time. We still enjoy art created millennia ago, but no one in a hundred years will remember any of the videogames from our time, and they certainly won't play them. Real art has a sort of immortality, its beauty never fades. But a videogame? Exceedingly few are enjoyed even a couple of years after they're made.

>>718860156
Art is when women are sexy

>>718845290
Republicans aren't human though. They are goycattle.

Art? More like fart. Lol gottem.

>>718817252
>the most jew-loving president is a heckin NAZI
Oh, so he is just a retard.

>>718815781 (OP)
why does he talk like that

>>718861053
>but no one in a hundred years will remember any of the videogames from our time
And literally how the fuck do you know that? If 'real art' is nothing but a trifle until people who aren't born yet decide it's important then why the fuck do you get to decide if it's important or not?

>>718861548
Because videogames become hilariously dated after only a few years. They don't have the timeless beauty that real art does. The only reason some like older games is nostalgia.

I don't care about video games being recognized as art.

>>718860504

What if it was in literary form?

>>718861917
Based. They don't need to be art to be entertaining.

>>718861970
Are you asking if literature is art? Yes it is.
I don't know if I would call a speech or an essay art. But I think documentary films can be art so I can entertain the idea.

>>718861872
>they dont have timeless beauty that real art does

>>718836950
Yea I guess it's my bad for assuming the OP would be in good faith and not a complete machination to get /v/ to shit on Moore. From now on I will always fact check everything and always assume I'm being lied to for the benefit of someone else's amusement!

>>718862760
I don't think anyone that discusses art as a subject has modern art in mind given that its basically all just money laundering by Jews

>games can't be art because they just can't alright
>no I won't explain myself

>>718815781 (OP)
Tbh what even is art?

>>718860667
most popular comics are soulless capeshit, are comics not art now?

>>718859820

mm... at first, I was going to say "ah, but the difference between any old human act and art is that art is deliberate" but I think that's actually just arbritrary. now I can't help but think of it in semantic terms.

To say whether art is X or Y you must first define it, but both of us already have a definition of it in our minds, so of course that whatever question about art that we ask each other to try to convince the other person is predicated on our understanding of what art is, because it already operates within that preconceived system. Instead, it's a better question to ask *why* we think art is the way it is - or what the best way to find out it's definition to begin with is. I think that the only way we can really deduce that is by looking at what people refer to as art and try to identify patterns to understand what properties those things contain that make them art to see why they're identified as such. There must be something consistent between what we call art that makes it such.

>>718863938
You don't need to do all of that.

When he says art and you say art, you both know what you mean. Wittgenstein already covered this. Trying to tack it down exactly is a fool's errand.

>>718864047

I've never read wittgenstein desu anon, I'm still quite new to philosophy in general and I'm only really familiar with Baudrillard and theologians (and some contemporary meme philosophers like zizek and moldbug). Could you please explain what you mean?

>>718817371
TRVKE

>>718815781 (OP)
No, he's entirely incorrect.

>>718820959
actually hilarious. based shitposter

>>718827298
>I would argue manga now is better than comics have ever been in their entire existence.
As someone who reads comics and manga, North/South/East/West, from every decade and nation as possible - you should broaden your horizons.

>>718824163
just say you hate white people and go