Thread 718816263

The Dark Souls series would have been better, if it stuck with blocking as the main form of damage mitigating, as opposed to rolling. Imagine the direction the series would have gone if, if that was the case. Blocking with a shield is more fun than rolling and dodging.

Anybody who cares about the combat in these games is an autistic retard who refuses to play better games.
The Souls games should be exploration first like their predecessors, King's Field and Shadow Tower were.

>>718816263 (OP)
>Blocking with a shield is more fun than rolling and dodging.
Nobody believes this. Shields are for pussy ass betas.

>>718816263 (OP)
What about parrying? Sekiro, Lies of P and Another Crab's Treasure all focus on parrying.

>>718816263 (OP)
never become a game dev

>>718816263 (OP)
>the main form of damage mitigating
You would just get DS1 and DS2 again, they're both balanced without a main method of damage mitigation.

>>718816263 (OP)
Hot take: they should have kept adaptability. It makes sense for rogues to dodge better and to have to actually invest points into it. What’s the point if someone wearing better armor can dodge just as well as you without investing any points in quickness? Should make stability and adaptability stat points, and stability increases posture so your blocking doesn’t get swatted aside, and adaptability increases I-frames so you dodge better.

>>718816263 (OP)
>holding down a button and doing nothing is somehow "more fun" than literally anything else
Bizarre

>>718816687
Careful, anon. You're almost forming a thought there, the Souls fans are not going to be happy about that.

>>718816263 (OP)
Its really the fault of the level design, people bitched about how everything was too narrow and there were too many death pits, and now everything is a huge fuck open field or square arena.
That and the diminishing importance of stamina management allowed rolls to be spammed and more encouraged over shields.

>>718816994
This guy gets it. Its really the tight and enclosed level design and the death pits that makes DS1 a shield first game. You cant spam dodge around lest you fall, and I might be wrong on this, but i feel like ds1 dodge committed you to it longer because i remember having to dodge away so often, because if i dodged into too much and was stuck in an animation, i was fucked

>>718816687
Legitimately one of the only times a Souls game had a stat that did something other than number go up and everyone hates it lmao. Builds in this series are so samey and the one opportunity you get for some variation beyond what weapons you use it gets shat on.

>>718816263 (OP)
Blocking is still viable, but no one does it because they all think rolling is the default form of mitigating / avoiding damage.

Dark souls 2 had the best fighting system to me. Hard to explain but the character felt like he actually weight something. It was completely absent in 1,3 and elden

>>718816518
Parrying fucking sucks.
Capcom managed to destroy an entire genre with the parrying crap in SF3.
That's when everyone stopped playing fighting games.

>>718817834
>Blocking is still viable
Not in Elden Ring, where bosses hit like a tank and have infinite stamina with 30 hit combos, and the first hit alone will deplete your entire stamina bar.

>>718817880
Parrying ruined the Metroid series also, your weapons are now utterly useless on their own.

>>718817935
Turtling is the easiest strategy against the hardest boss who is universally agreed upon to be closest to your strawman of the game design.

>>718816263 (OP)
You say that but shields have always been decent, so long as you find a decent shield. I stuck with a 100% phys resist shield in my last DS3 run and it made the game way easier than trying to roll through everything.
>>718816358
This is kinda true though. I like the combat in Dark Souls but that's not the sole factor in liking it. I wish we got more KF and ST games too. Even with indie games coming out now that are "inspired" by King's Field, there hasn't really been anything that replicates it correctly, at least as far as I've personally seen.

>>718816994
>people bitched about how everything was too narrow and there were too many death pits, and now everything is a huge fuck open field or square arena.
Source?

Anyone that uses shield should be raped, in any game

>>718816263 (OP)
>Block a lightning bolt
>Still take damage
Rolling it is then

>>718816994
Stamina management is a meme. Nioh is the only where that really affects you and even then it's irrelevant if you learn how to do the cleansing wave after every attack

>>718819609
>Stamina management is a meme.
Only shitters who can't attack to save their lives don't have to manage stamina

>>718818070
thing is for that to work you either have to use buffs or use the heaviest, highest strength requirement gear in the game
if you just equip a medium shield and start blocking it's liable to get you killed

>>718816687
I would make rolling/ADP tied to dex like how equip load is tied to strength in DS1.
So the main build styles would be
>pump strength and rely on face tanking with heavy armor
>pump dex and be able to more easily dodge
>do int/faith and have the range advantage of spells with no defensive advantage as a tradeoff. Maybe even have it weaken the body and scale a stat like HP negatively so you're a glass cannon.
>some mix of the above (they're balanced to only get really broken at high levels and a mix would be a tradeoff)
shields could be used by anyone but would block/poise more attacks for strength users

>>718819668
Just attack until the stamina ends, it's pretty simple. Nioh fucks you up a bit because if you get hit while your stamina is depleted you get stunned

>>718816687
No anon, you dont get it. Soulsfags want action games, not RPG's. Also that mechanic was added by the forbidden game we shall not talk about made by a different developer entirely (B-t*am)

>>718817787
>stat that increases your rolls iframes
>No way to see how many iframes you have
>Game doesn't make it clear what the stat even does
It was a garbage stat that only added ambiguity and confusion to a mechanic that should not be ambiguous or confusing.

>>718816263 (OP)
>blocking as the main form of damage mitigating
This is especially true for attacks that are weak enough to deflect off your shield, letting you get a free instability hit on the enemy afterwards. However, against massive attacks, the best defence is to move(not roll) out of the way. That way you can counter the attack without losing any stamina(unless you sprint) and without committing to an animation.

>>718816518
Dark souls parrying was way better and more satisfying.

>>718819746
That's how it already is in DS2, anon. Str builds use VIT/STR, Dex gets ADP/Dex and Mages gets Their respective stat (or both)/ATN.

>>718819725
>Smaller shields are less effective than larger shields at blocking
Ok and?

>>718816687
I almost wonder if it might be a good idea to have stats influence animations. Like a low strength character might be able to use a hammer but has a shitty combo if one at all, or a character with low dex might be really heavy handed with weapons like rapiers and not properly use them to their full potential. Maybe at high levels you start doing some really cool things with weapons affected by certain stats that would have been purely weapon art territory before? It seems like a cool idea.

>>718820048
no physical build uses vit because it would fuck up robflynn

>>718819976
This is the truth. Sekiro's implementation of parrying was cheap. It's a shame it became the more popular way to do it.

>>718820048
ADP also affected cast speed, not just DEX in DS2.

>>718820348
Metagaming has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

>>718820431
ADP definitely doesn't, Attunement is the one that does. I'm not 100% certain about DEX in DS2, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect casting speed at all anymore. Only INT, FTH and ATN do.

>>718816263 (OP)
I like if both shields and rolling are viable options. I think it was ALWAYS cool to use your i-frames to dodge an attack not because it made sense, but because it was a video game and it felt cool/satisfying to time the dodge correctly. The problem is when it becomes such a comically often occurrence during boss fights that it stops feeling as cool. Like, you're fighting gods and shit and you're just a guy rolling, rolling, rolling. It's cool, but I feel like From Software, at some point, overdid it for sure so it feels less special since the bosses now do 48-hit combos.

That said, I also really like the reliability of holding a shield out to tank a hit without having to worry about the exact roll timing. If you're not sure how much you can get away with, holding out the shield to stay safe was always nice too. I don't want one option to be blatantly better than the other, I like it when both blocking and rolling are used together since you're making use of multiple mechanics to overcome enemies rather than only relying on one option. It makes it inherently more engaging rather than rolling all day.

Rolling wouldn't be so weird if From Software just put the fucking Bloodborne dodge in all their games instead. The visual of rolling constantly has become silly so I get why people have stopped liking it as much over the years.

>>718816687
In practice the overleveled havel monster at 69% equip load will have far better rolling than a lightly geared cloak and dagger rogue which goes against your entire point, speaking of Dark Souls 2 I blame them for the current state of roll roll roll by bringing the break point for fat rolling up to 70%.

>>718820740
Casting speed is affected by agility. ADP affects that stat just not as much as attunement which is how it should be fuck fromsoft from going back to their old dex system

>>718816263 (OP)
Shields are viable in every souls game, even against the more cuh-razy bosses. What's wrong with having choice?

>>718816687
Equip Load already does that in a way better way.

>>718820919
You have it backwards. ADP raises Agility way more, ATN gives you much less Agility and therefore less I-frames. It also doesn't even affect casting speed, you're probably thinking of consumable usagenspeed or confusing it with the effects of Attunement which does both.

>>718820741
I think Nioh did it well by having you block unreactable attacks and dodge attacks with long startup animations.

>>718820082
it's not that they're "less effective", it's that they're outright useless if not detrimental to use if you don't know how it works
shields are actually kind of broken, a good medium shield + barricade is one of the dumbest things in the game
but barely anyone's gonna find that out without someone telling them, due to how ass shields are on their own
meanwhile rolling just werks

>>718816358
Kings Field has dogshit exploration. Only 4 has anything redeemable about it because occasionally you see something cool.
No one actually ever played Shadow Tower.
Otherwise KF is too ugly and monotone for anyone to feel encouraged to explore or wander around.

>>718819746
>>do int/faith and have the range advantage of spells with no defensive advantage as a tradeoff. Maybe even have it weaken the body and scale a stat like HP negatively so you're a glass cannon.
Magic is already just 'average' in DS3 and Elden Ring, this would kill it.

walking > blocking > rolling

>>718816263 (OP)
>Imagine the direction the series would have gone if, if that was the case.
What direction could it have gone in? What can you do to make an engaging game out of holding a button to raise your shield? How do you escalate that to have a difficulty curve in your game? How do you make interesting and varied boss fights if all you can do to defend against every attack is hold down the button with no timing or positioning involved?

>>718821776
>What direction could it have gone in?
The same direction as the first Souls games before Bloodborne and DS3, the ones that actually had variety in bosses and encounters. A game with meaningful build options where you actually vary your approach to both combat and exploration. You create a difficulty curve with the actual level design and interactions with the game's various mechanics, not by increasing the number of times you need to roll in a bossfight.

>>718816263 (OP)
For me it's simply the fact that roll spam looks stupid.
It looks fucking retarded. Like that's it. Nothing else matters. A sidestep, a dash, an animation that's some kind of hopping parry, literally anything except somersault spamming in full plate armour, please.

>>718821256
speak for yourself man i played kf1/2 and enjoyed the hell out of the journey, didn't use guides or draw maps or anything just went through memorizing the whole map, for an autist it's the ideal game

>>718818207
lunacid 2 is literally a king's field (right on the kf engine) if the other options on the market don't tickle your fancy, i liked it but i like pretty much all of these simple adventure games

>>718817935
Shut the fuck up retard, you have no idea what you're talking about

>>718821394
>pursuer.webm

>>718822252
Those games had plenty of rolling too, and used faster and more complex enemies as the bulk of their difficulty curves. You can't just block black skeletons or red-eye knights like you would a dregling. You can't block Latria jailers at all. If you try to block False King Allant you'll get your goddamn levels drained. Blocking and dodging have always been two halves of a defensive whole in these games. Or two thirds if you want to also include sprinting, but that didn't really start until DS2 and has only become more relevant in later games. As of Elden Ring, blocking can far outclass dodging if you play it right. They just made it take some actual effort just like you have to learn the correct timings and directions for dodging.

>>718821246
This

Shields are still viable but you need the right build. In SotE blocking became the meta with ridiculous stuff like the perfect block tear and verdigris talisman letting you tank through all the hard encounters DS1 style.

>>718816263 (OP)
>The Dark Souls series would have been better, if it stuck with blocking as the main form of damage mitigating, as opposed to rolling
i feel like this has to be one of the strangest revisions i constantly see on here. it never was at all. myself and everyone i knew back then that played this just rolled. it was much better, retained more stamina and gave you tons more control. like i guess there are a few corridors that are tight that you could use a shield in but when you then go on to traverse the level with 90% open enough space to allow for rolling, most people wouldnt burden themselves with the weight of a shield. only noobs would be blocking and that was already known back then.

>>718822425
See, this is why devs shouldn't listen to gamers. Dashes and sidestep with iframes in other games feel notoriously bad because they're usually not animated with as clear visual indication of when your iframes are active. In souls the player can quickly build an intuitive sense based on what point of the roll animation their character is in of whether or not they will be hit. That's also why players who went from DS1 to DS2 thought it felt off because there's a slight decoupling of iframes and roll because a stat adds a bit extra and you need level it a bit to get it back to being as generous as it was in DS1.

>>718821394
Which game is this?

>>718821073
>unequip armor at the start of the game
>get best defense in the game
Such a well designed system

>>718817869
>Hard to explain but the character felt like he actually weight something. It was completely absent in 1,3 and elden
Your character is super frail in DS3 in particular, very malnourished

>>718816263 (OP)
>>718817880
>Wah wah wah, I'm a giant baby who can't stand having to actually time inputs!
Eat shit, casual faggots

>>718824639
> rolling gave you tons more control

this is the problem, movement/defense/dodging should not be all rolled into one low-commitment movement option in a game series ostensibly centered around weighty attack and defense animations.

>>718816993
>smartass shithead posts another snarky comment
*yaaaaawwwwnn*

>>718816263 (OP)
I think Adaptability in DS2 was a good idea, just poorly implemented. If you want to roll, invest points into the stat, be it gear or skills. You're given a small amount, which the amount given in DS2 at lowest is enough. And it goes from there. To block, you already need the stats required to equip it, and then it adds weight to your build, and then you're stuck with whatever stability it has. You can upgrade it, but you can use those same resources to upgrade the shield with 10+ more stability at base to get even higher.

I think rolling is just too good, even now in Elden Ring, if you want to block, you go down the same road so to speak. Need a strong shield, most likely high health. Most likely will weigh a ton, so need endurance as well. And we all know there's a chance we're going to get hit once we run out of stamina, so we stack heavy armour too. And then that isn't enough against some bosses, so you stack buffs as well. Rolling is just there. The only requirement is to be below heavy weight, but that's quite easy to do so. Yes, you might have to invest a few points, but nowhere near as much for Strength, Endurance, finding the shield, finding the weapon which most likely to be a poking weapon, and then getting the materials for consumables.

You could make the argument that you don't "have" to use all those consumables, but you still need everything else. And at the end of it all, there's no investment for rolling.

>>718820890
>i blame the game where every boss has been made around being able to roll through their combos by evading the hitbox instead of relying on iframes
not smart

Blocking is really good in Elden Ring. Nobody is forcing you to roll. Only mentally ills who post the phrase 'rollslop' here 5000 times a day would disagree.

>>718820890
The lightly geared rogue will roll like 5ft in any direction while the Havel guy at 69% is basically still in the same position after the roll, it's way worse at dodging. You would also have to invest like twice the amount of stat points to achieve both an equal amount of iframes in your roll as the rogue and have enough VIT to wear full Havel + your weapons as well.

>>718816263 (OP)
Remove iframes on rolls, change them to dashes like in Sekiro/Bloodborne, and emphasize positioning if you want to run with no shield. Iframe slop fucking sucks, monster hunter understands this and it's better off for it

ive played all these games right from the beginning with DeS in 2010 and i never used shields at all nor did any of my friends. only time i really felt like i needed a shield was getting through the beginning of the valley of defilement in DeS where its really easy to fall down if you roll around to dodge enemies. blocking was always a noobtrap. never used shields in dark souls 1 except for parrying or for the grass shields passive.

>>718821250
If rolling just worked you wouldn't have daily whine threads about getting roll caught or having to do 20 rolls before getting a window for a punish.

dark souls series would have been better if they deleted ds2,ds3 and er from everywhere and released ds1 patch which improved second part of the game and added majula

>>718816263 (OP)
By Dark Souls 3 FromSoft decided to basically remove 2 out of 3 ways of avoiding damage, essentially removing 2 playstyles. in DS1 you could beat the whole game just fine with only dodging, spacing (just moving around/running from enemy attacks), or blocking. In DS3 all enemies slide on the ground and teleport during attack while having near-perfect 360 tracking. In ER it's even worse.

>>718827329
Hbomberguy spotted

>>718827819
in elden ring im frequently jumping over or ducking under attacks
and not the "please jump me" shockwave ones

>>718816263 (OP)
>just sit there and hold button
no thanks man. it's kind of boring just to block all the time

>>718816263 (OP)
post the dsp kino from that area

>>718816263 (OP)
Blocking is better and stronger than it ever has been on Elden Ring though.

>>718827904
im employed and dont know who that is

>>718827819
>In ER it's even worse.
??? ER is the game with sekiro deflect, bloodborne rally/blood tax/prayerful strike for trading builds, parryable enemies and bosses are far more common, the best shields every in any souls game and enemy movesets that you can avoid by jumping over or duck under with your own attacks.

>>718823380
nah he actually does. Shields were kinda usefull for the first time in 10 years at release but From in their Japanese wisdom decided to absolutely make them worthless in both pvp and pve

>>718827920
I love how you can duck and jump over/under attacks. roll faggots never played elden ring

>>718817869
That's because DS2 used a different engine with smoother animations.

>>718827954
Just do perfect blocks, problem solved.

Pic related makes elden ring too easy. why do they give it to you so early in the game? it totally mogs every other shield

>>718816263 (OP)
Agreed. Iframes were a mistake.

>>718827819
I remember using a shield in Dark Souls 3 during my first playthrough and I think to this day it was still my overall easiest playthrough. Shields are really good in that game. All the different shields focused on blocking different elemental damage are great too.

>>718817880
I remember once I was playing this Jwong dude at EVO and I parried his whole Chun Li super to win the round. What a scrub that guy was.

>>718828105
Yeah but you don't actually need it. Every 100% physical shield will do fine with barricade shield+greatshield talisman on an RL1 character.

>>718828132
if you use a shield and stabby spear in original demon's souls you're just untouchable

>>718828175
you don't even need a shield with greatshield talisman. you could walk around naked with a big stick

>>718821246
>I think Nioh did it well

It did everything well

You can because they gave us deflecting hardtear. ER is based like that.

Why can't from Animate their characters right after 15 years. All the blunt stuff still phases through enemies. There's no fluidity in player animations either

>>718828183
Doesn't False King's wind waves go through shields? I don't remember.

>>718828270
I'm not sure. I threw my ps3 in the trash a long time ago

>>718824639
I mean in Demon's Souls and early Dark Souls the advice was always to find a shield with 100% damage reduction as soon as possible. The whole "lol shields are for noobs" wasn't a mainstream opinion at all besides for the "git gud" crowd who were mercifully still quite small at the time.

>>718828358
you wanted poise

>>718824825
Yeah I kinda hate how the meta in every souls game is to be naked for 50% of it until you level up your endurance a lot. The stat system in souls has always been shit though, people just don't want to admit it because it's been around so long now.

>>718828443
you know what's weird about elden ring? the armor doesn't do shit and it's more for fashion

>>718824926
parry heavy games tend to make the timing easier little broski

>>718828483
Going back to their roots. It was exactly the same in Demon's Souls and it was probably the worst part of that game. Armour did literally nothing. Couldn't get into Elden Ring at all though, everything about it felt so meta, like every time a boss would do some ridiculous 4 second windup attack or something it just felt like I was playing against dev trickery rather than a real game.

>>718828358
Its quite annoying how the consensus became "rolling is the only defensive option that matters and every single aspect of the game is balanced around it" when in reality it was just one tool out of like 4 main ones. It doesn't feel like any souls fans even like the genre at all outside of the boss battles anymore, there's always constant complaints about minor inconveniences in the level design or having to change builds a little for encounters in discussion about souls-like these days.
It's probably rose tinted nostalgia goggles, but I remember people liking things such as how you were meant to grab a shield for the fire spider in the demon's souls mine to help the approach.

>>718828483
I've noticed this too. I've seen plenty of anons trying to insist otherwise, but it really feels like everything at the end of the game just does a specific % of your health and the actual defense/armor you have doesn't actually do anything at all. I think it TECHNICALLY does a little bit, but it's so fucking unnoticeable that I don't really get the purpose of armor in Elden Ring. Like >>718828621 mentioned, it feels exactly like Demon's Souls.

I'm all for hyper armor, I think it's a fantastic game mechanic, but I don't fucking get why armor doesn't protect shit in ER.

>>718828621
the fun part with elden ring was cheesing the bosses. fight fire with fire. I smoked that stupid rot bitch in 10 minutes on my first playthrough because I cheesed her with great stars hoarfrost stomp.

>>718828691
all you need to do in elden ring is get your talismans and pick a weapon

>>718816263 (OP)
I agree, blocking is kino, and iframes are gay ass garbage.

>>718828691
It does do a lot, if you equip the relevant resists or heavier armour you can often change a one shot to a survivable hit which is often all you need to overcome a tough fight. I guess it isn't as impactful as DS1 or 2, basically Bloodborne levels.

>>718828483
>>718828691
Muh gut feeling. Armor is ER does what it says on the tin you can test it yourself and see the damage reduction yourself. Meanwhile in DS2 physical defence is actually worthless.

>>718828691
wanna see my drip that doesn't do anything except negate fire damage?

>>718828665
Oh it's completely different now I agree. DeS, DS1 and DS2 are just designed completely differently to the rest. It changed from a game about exploring and trying out new things to one where you just have a guide open and run from boss to boss while following a meta build from the internet. The whole element of figuring shit out yourself is just totally absent in Elden Ring and it sucks.

>>718828871
it's barely noticeable. the only thing it's good for is resistances

>>718828691
Defense actually matters a lot, but buffs are way more dramatic than armor. If you stack up armor, defense talismans, and defense buffs, you'll see insane damage reduction comparable to DeS Warding or DS1 Great Magic Barrier, but available for any damage type.

>>718828965
to this day I still think ds1 is one of the best games ever made

>>718828969
35%+ damage reduction is not "barely noticable".

>>718828998
Yeah easily. Especially within the context of the time it came out.

>>718829032
it is when you have the dragon crest greatshield talisman.

>>718829051
I was blown away when demon's souls came out, and dark souls is just a better version of it

>>718828965
It's not totally absent in ER. Ironically it's most present in the areas people would probably label as the worst least effort (the catacomb type dungeons), but the fanbase has definitely changed their tastes and the games definitely shifted their focus.

>>718829058
It's not because every % point more reduction is worth more than the last. There is no such thing as diminishing returns for damage reduction.

>>718828965
To this day I still don't understand people who go "oh you see I am doing a melee build" and then bitch about how some encounter is hard for melee only. You were supposed to switch gear and use every resource at your disposal depending on the situation.

>>718829126
armor values suck ass in elden ring. it's shit and I'm not going to sit here and argue about it

>>718828965
>The whole element of figuring shit out yourself is just totally absent in Elden Ring and it sucks.
Bullshit. You still have people whining about missing areas and items, failing a questline, getting stuck, not knowing where to go etc.

the one thing i liked about elden ring is that it made blocking relevant

I was genuinely getting my shit pushed in until i started blocking more. im so used to just dodging with bloodborne

>>718829202
even though I'm shitting on the statistics of armor in ER I still really like that game. I beat it before the first patch came out where they nerfed everything

>>718829241
Pic related makes elden ring trivial >>718828105

>>718829202
Figuring out questlines because they're garbage pieces of shit is not the same as figuring out the best approach to an area or enemy encounter, anon.

>>718829349
which quest lines did you find in elden ring? which one is your favorite? I like the frenzied flame one the best

>>718829349
Well good thing ER has some of the most complex levels since demon's souls.

>>718816358
>exploration
Even more fundamentally than that, souls games were about attrition.

>>718829446
I'm pretty sure most people haven't even stumbled across the erdtrees roots and killed the lich dragon

>>718829446
>ER has some of the most complex levels since demon's souls.
Maybe, but they don't incorporate anywhere near as much of anything that is being discussed so I don't know why that's relevant.

>>718829171
Well it used to be like that but nowadays everyone just looks up a guide for the strongest strength or dex weapon and then complains that it's easy. The worst are the Elden Zoomers who play Dark Souls and like that and complain it was too easy. Like yeah no shit, you looked it all up.

>>718816263 (OP)
True. The best defense game design in games i have seen that doesn rely on shit tier parry slop and simon says shit is unironically final fantasy 7 remake.
Fast light attacks cannot be dodgerolled because you get caught by them, so you have to block them which reduces the damage by 70% and fills up your main attack resource as well, meanwhile unblockable slow strong attacks cannot be blocked but have to be rolled.
Its simple, it works, it removes any shit tier parryslop, it removes rolls being overpowered like in souls games and instead relegates them to avoid unblockable attacks and for positioning and it guarding contribute to your offense removing the entire "i am stuck in defense forever" mode you get with late game souls bosses via rolls and blocking.

Its simple (still gamers are too stupid to get it because SE is shit at tutorials) and just works and is from a gamedesign standpoint flawless and miles above parry and invincibility button/roll.

>>718829202
I don't mean it's literally impossible, it's just not worth the time or effort in such a large map to find everything yourself.

>>718828965
Yeah it's impossible to play without a guide open! I wish I could figure things out on my own but I'm forced to be a meta slave, from software sucks!

>>718828093
The one great thing about DS2's engine was animation linking. Melee builds had the most freedom ever.

>>718829547
it's called replay value

>>718816263 (OP)
There's nothing inherently wrong with parrying or blocking or anything else in the fromsoft games.
It's just that the dark souls gameplay loop was only interesting enough for one game and they made like 7.

>>718829032
you are ignoring that many many "hard" late game bosses attacks in souls games do percentage based damage to you as in it can never do lower damage than a certain percentage making health upgrades and armor more or less useless in the late game

>>718829615
you're fucking retarded. I bet you're the type of retard who hates the good final fantasy 1-9 games too

>>718816263 (OP)
Dark Souls had both blocking and rolling as the main forms of damage mitigation. Parrying is where shit got bad. Rolling forces the most interaction with the game since it emphasizes movement and positioning. Blocking itself isn't that mechanically interesting but having to be concerned about stamina management and when it's safe to lower your guard to attack. That ignoring the spear poke playstyle which always sucked.

Parrying is braindead. There is no downside, no concern for the environment or positioning or resource management. It's just play simon says and press a button at the right time and you win! It also encourages devs to compensate by giving bosses 20+ hit combos because you're expected to just stand there and play rhythm through them.

>>718829615
the defense options in dark souls games are poor
parry as done in most souls games is bad gamedesign that removes the veil of the action combat and exposes it and its just too easy and turns bosses into jokes (anyone fighting sulivan or even ds1 gwyn witouth parry knows this fact) in elden ring they thankfully reduced how op parry is.

>>718828871
Ring of Steel Protection has a hidden modifer in DS2 that's worth more than wearing full havels.

>>718829592
Well they failed there because I couldn't be bothered to beat it once.

>>718829870
damn. where did you get stuck on? er is easy

>>718829870
>Elden ring has no exploration because I looked up guides and destroyed the sense of exploration
Congrats.

>>718829870
don't tell me Margit kicked your shit in and you gave up?

>>718829905
>stuck
He probably got bored during the second half.

>>718829952
he didn't explore shit. there's probably still parts I haven't discovered yet after 3+ play throughs

>>718829984
Sounds like you're the one who needs a guide here.

>>718830072
I beat the game before there were guides. my favorite is the frenzied flame I already said this itt

>>718830072
maybe I do need a guide for the rest, or I could just figure it out for myself. I haven't played the dlc yet

>>718830072
nobody should use a guide for their first playthrough of a game. it takes the fun away. second playthrough? yes

I love how people keep focusing on the defensive options being the issue (when they're just the exact same shit you find in almost every action game that has ever existed) and not that the your offense boils down to pressing R1 a couple of times (or spamming overpowered weapon arts/jump heavies in Elden Ring).

>>718830343
What else are you supposed to do? The enemy is just a healthbar. It doesn't matter what kind of attacks you use against it because there aren't different outcomes.

>>718830343
it's a little more nuanced than that

>>718830402
>What else are you supposed to do?
Have a larger number of attacks that do something meaningfully different from each other. Dante in DMC3 with just rebellion and without swordmaster has access to:
>fast combo for single target damage
>slower combo with some AoE around himself
>gap closer
>launcher
>air attack that slams enemies down on the ground
>ranged showckwave
Meanwhile your moveset in souls games is:
>hit enemy standing directly in front of you
>hit enemy standing directly in front of you after a roll
>hit enemy standing directly in front of you harder but slower
>hit enemy standing directly in front of you harder but slower after a jump
>one weapon art that might actually do something mildly interesting

>>718817869
>Dark souls 2 had the best fighting system to me

>enemies are programmed to automatically block when you press hit
>if you hold block, the enemy won't attack
>if you block at the same time as the enemy attacks, the enemy always takes priority and passes your block
>if you attack at the same time as the enemy, the enemy takes priority and you're stunned
>your only hope to get anywhere is to nail the parry timing or roll like a motherfucker
>roll iframes are tied to a stat and useless unless you waste levels on it
wow. such fun. this is the best

>>718830402
>>718830808
They need to steal dragons dogma combat and put their own spin on it.
Can you imagine actually having access to more than one spell at a time by using a skill palette?

>>718829939
The real problem with ER exploration is that it reuses too many enemies, making exploring areas from Leyndel onwards a giant slog.

>You start in Limgrave
You are introduced to: basic soldiers, demi humans, the various wildlife, trolls, undead
>You make your way into the Castle
Now you see knights, grafted enemies, war birds
>Caelid
Oversized dogs, chariots, rot pests, Oversized birds
>Liurnia
Various mages and their puppets
>Volcano Manor
Snakes

>Leyndel/mountaintops/farum azula/haligtree
Pretty much everything is reused and you've seen everything

>>718830808
Vomit inducing
>>718830987
Why the fuck would I want a worse system and more mechanically bland like DD?

>>718830808
oh boy, the dmc argument

>>718830808
Dmc is dogshit and all your options are about how to abuse target dummies with shitty lock-on bound attacks

>>718831313
>>718831332
>>718831395
>massive seething
>no arguments
What a surprising response from Fromdrones

>>718830987
>Can you imagine actually having access to more than one spell at a time by using a skill palette?
Can you imagine having access to only 4 spells none of which can be used on the run or in sequence, woah

It's hilarious how spell que scares you retarded shitter faggots even more than liminal spaces for zoomers

>>718830808
Flip it around to see the real issue. When you hit an enemy it either:
>doesn't react
>flinches from hitstun
>or gets knocked over
And that's it. Their behavior and attributes don't change, they're more like training dummies. I don't count posture breaks because it's not a property of any specific action the player can perform and therefore not a real player-enemy interaction. Two different attacks that produce the same enemy reaction are effectively the same attack, even if one is more safe than the other. I also don't count backstabs because it's a prompt grab, not a weapon hit, and it's pretty much universally unavailable in bossfights.

>>718819914
It also increased speed of consumables so your character wouldn't take their sweet time putting a tiki umbrella on their estus flask before drinkin git

>>718816382
>Standing your ground, being immovable and retaliating right away is for pussy ass betas
>Rolling on a floor in the dirt from any hit directed your way, fleeing like a bitch, patiently waiting for when the game will allow you to attack is for real alpha males ACKSHULLY
The absolute state of fromcucks

>>718831517
Your webm shows exactly why having access to multiple spells would be better. You're doing a set sequence. What if you wanted to do spell 1 2 1 3 1 4?
And Why would you not be able to use spells on the run or in sequence?
There's nothing scary about pressing up on the dpad. It's just a shit control scheme.

The endless cycle of ER threads:
>This game is rollslop! Wait.. you used a shield? That doesn't count.
>All you do is spam attac... wait you used a variety of attacks? You memorized the enemy it doesn't count.
>This game has no exploration. Huh? How was I supposed to know using a guide would spoil the sense of mystery?

Always been weird how From spells are like
>combustion - press R1 and that's it
instead of
>pyro arts - press R1 for combustion or R2 for fireball

fortnite

>>718831983
What if you wanted to do spell 1 2 1 3 1 4?
Cycle more

>>718831983
>Top top hold top top hold top top top top
Wow so hard

>>718832190
Because the staff bash is better

>>718832407
That can be a two-handed L1 or L2 input.

>>718822425
Witcher 3 did that right with the side-stepping dodges for regular combat and rolling for long distance fucking off. It still looks kinda stupid when you roll out of the way but whatever, at least it's not the main form of avoidance. Fucking nigger retard developers going "hurr Souls did rolling so we need to roll too xD" deserve the bullet.

>>718832190
There needed to be an ash of war that let you assign, like, the last spell in your list of spells as an L2

>>718817935
>doesn't know

>>718832190
They baked combustion into the pyro glove for DS3

lukewarm take incoming
>dark souls 1: great pve, poor pvp
>dark souls 2: great pvp, poor pve
>dark souls 3: average pve and pvp
>elden ring: below average pve and pvp

>>718816687
You're not wrong and to this day I can't understand why everyone threw a big fit about it. All they had to do was make it a bit more obvious what the stat did.

>>718816263 (OP)
But blocking is already superior in ds1? I am pretty sure the majority of people playing 1 for the first time just put on the heaviest armor and blocked because blocking is extremely forgiving and doesn't put you in danger 99% of the time. Even with non 100% physical shields blocking is super effective and you can just stand there taking hits that have no chance of doing anything to you.

>>718832497
No, that's blocking and ash of war
>>718832571
Or you could just put it on a weapon

My first Elden Ring run back at release with the Great Sword got a lot easier when I realized how good it was for blocking.

>>718816687
DS2 might be a halfbaked and botched experiment, but the ideas in it are all the right ones and were progressing and refining Dark Souls into the right direction - adding depth to the RPG mechanics and maintaining what made the originals great (nonlinearity, quirky boss fights, importance of armor, and others that escape my mind). DS3 and elden turd completely flanderized the franchise into boss rush rollslop sims.

>>718834682
This is a hot take, but after all these years I really do agree with it. I still play ds2 every now and then. Cant say the same for ds3

>>718834194
One of the ER patches massively buffed colossal weapon block properties so it'd be significantly stronger now.

>>718816687
>Hey how about we make a super OP stat that affects everything and automatically puts you at massive PVP disadvantage in every single scenario
No, it was a pointless, stupid and retarded change that broke the game, trying to fix a problem that disn't actually exist in the first place

>>718834682
Armor is useless in Dark Souls 2
Level design is awful in Dark Souls 2
Bosses are all dudes in armor in Dark Souls 2
You are a retarded secondary fanboy who started with DS2
None of what you said is coherent or logical

Fromsoftware's meme i-frame roll has absolutely decimated the mental of the game industry developers. Everyone wants to copy souls shit thinking it's still "good" in 2025 when in reality that formula got stale way back in ds2 and ds3. By the time Sekiro came out, souls became old and tired, only for them to QUADRUPLE down on it for elden ring by making enemies shoot lasers and adding a fucking bullet hell segment to fights because they literally ran out of ways to fuck with the retarded i-frame roll spam. At least AC6 was all about moving fast and getting the fuck out of the way instead of having the robots literally roll around like retards too.

>>718816263 (OP)
Problem is that dodging is an answer to literally every attack in the game. Sekiro is similar with deflecting, but the perilous sweep attacks force you to jump to avoid them. With ER I was hoping they would build on that approach, of having different defensive answers for different attacks, but alas rolling is once again able to avoid basically every attack.

>>718834682
Dark Souls 2 is and will always be hot trash
https://youtu.be/8LtRS0AW9Qg?si=DSBfc7xsz4wvuCb5

the real problem is that they are all games made to be beatable by retards who don't understand super lean builds and optimization maxxing to squeeze out pixels of health after being hit or to skip a phase or whatever other minute changes that come with large ramifications to exploit. then you have the gall to come and complain about dodge souls or summon souls or whatever.

>>718835492
>shitmastered
>shit opinion
always a nice combo

>>718835370
no it isn't
he said nonlinear not good
they are and it rocks
u mad?

>>718835492
Oh god, it's the boring Dark Souls webm poster.

>>718835370
DS2 is the last souls game I played. I started with DS3, then played BB, then played DS1(myふぁヴぉ売り手)。then played DeS, then quit elden turd about the 70% mark because it was dog shit.

>>718836441
>I am a secondary
We can tell from your shit opinions and lack of understanding of Dark Souls
>70% mark
So was it Morgott that filtered you, secondary?
>>718835492
>Problem is that dodging is an answer to literally every attack in the game.
It's not true nor it would be a problem in the first place
>Sekiro is similar with deflecting, but the perilous sweep attacks force you to jump to avoid them.
Deflection is completely divorced from positioning, dodge isn't. Some gay QTE system is not the sake as a combat based on avoidance of active hitboxes
>With ER I was hoping they would build on that approach, of having different defensive answers for different attacks
You are a secondary that didn't understand the fundamental mechanics of Souls games, dunno why you would brag about it
>>718834682
Ds 2 armor is useless
Ds 2 bosses are bad
Ds 2 levels are shit
Ds 2 will never be considered anything more than a badly conceived bastardization of Dark Souls

>>718836731
>badly conceived bastardization of Dark Souls
that's elden turd, the fortnite pseudosequel is the icing on the cake.

>>718836796
>Self admitted secondary pretends to have an opinion
You can equally pretend I give a shit
Nightreign is more Dark Souls than Dark Souls 2 will ever be
>Damage negation matters
>Elemental resistances matter
>Builds matter
>Bosses aren't utter trash and worse than any game
>Actually meaningfully connected to its predecessor
Ds2 fucking widhes it could be Dark Souls Nightreign

>>718837013
no one here's praising DS2, just that it is fundamentally more of a souls game than elden turd, you are shitting yourself fighting a made up strawman, probably because you have no adult life and this is where all you pour all your vitriol.

>>718817935
id hate to see just how dogshit you are at vidya

People aren't ready to accept that good positioning is the best way to play the game. You can avoid almost every attack without dodging and have longer damage windows this way.

>>718819746
Equip load has never been tied to strenghth, numbskull.

>>718831902
Noooo strategy and timing with mind games is for pussys I'm a badass because I wear a helmet (and condoms, respect women) and a shield and a bunch of armor so I don't get any boo boos! I'm a REAL man!

>>718837308
Oh they'll acknowledge it by calling it "sweaty"

Reminder that DS2fags are not people and are not worth any serious response.

>>718817935
Works on my machine

>>718837835
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfBFSCjAeWc

>>718837105
>no one here's praising DS2
You don't even have the guts to defend your shit takes, faggot
>just that it is fundamentally more of a souls game than elden turd, you are shitting yourself
That's what a retarded secondary like you that was filtered by Morgott would believe
>fighting a made up strawman
Saying that 4 out of 4 of the retarded shit you said to praise Dark Souls 2 are factually incorrect, because you are a retard running your mouth about shit you have no business even discussing
Have you even tested armor in Dark Souls 2? Do you know how many things ADO affect for every single character, making it a must pick always?

On top of that you got absolutely buttblasted by the best Souls game to the point of getting filtered, while having the audacity to try and tell us what is Dark Souls and what isn't

>>718817935
>what is bastion shield and prayerful strike
shields are top tier
They are only bad if you consider parrying their only usage as parrying is less effective in ER than other soulsbornes

>>718837308
Truke

>>718816263 (OP)
>that corridor
someone post the dsp backstab webm

>>718836731
sekiro makes positioning actually matter because being agressive towards the enemy and attacking them is worth more than deflecting if you can land it, and enemies will frequently try to back away. its still dumbed down in terms of positioning but it has its qualities and feels like an interesting clash
the problem is that everyone copying sekiro literally fails to feature any of these qualities

>Ds 2 armor is useless
true
>ds2 bosses are bad
crown of the old iron king literally has three of the very best bosses in the franchise
>ds2 levels are shit
why, because you need everything to be a sanitized grey corridor with zero threat like ds3?

>>718837969
>making it a must pick always?
It literally isnt. The game is at its most fun without leveling ADP and it holds up perfectly well and makes it have the best bosses of the trilogy
But in a way youre right: ADP should have been removed, consumable speed should be faster by default, AND all ways of increasing i-frames on your rolls should have been removed.

>>718837516
>/v/irgin believes brainlessly spamming the roll button in fromsoft games equals to strategy and timing while managing your stamina and patiently waiting for openings isn't.
nta

>>718839862
>crown of the old iron king literally has three of the very best bosses in the franchise
I hecking love the same exact 3 superpoiser dudes in armor doing horizontal swing with 12 meters wide hitbox and with key strategy being dry humping their asses so they miss like retards
>why,
Because they are shit, retard. Because there's no a single good level in the entire game
Remember in Dark Souls 2 when you got that level that developed vertically in fun ways like the Catacombs or Ringed City, and when you unlocked useful shortcuts like in Grand Archives and Irithyll, or had hidden passages and secrets like the DS3 Dreg Heap skips? I don't because it never happened
>It literally isnt
Yes it is. ADP improves everything from making your shield raise aster to using consumable much quicker. On top of tat the gave you iframes that are near indispensable in PVP against any remotely decent player, especisly in Dark Souls 2, a game where blocking and tanking are completely pointless in the face of 800 plus damage per affinity orbs, triple infused and buffed dps race bullshit that while fully upgraded Havel is literally pointless
>The game is at its most fun without leveling ADP and it holds up perfectly well and makes it have the best bosses of the trilogy
Even at 3 ADP like in this webm you still can't do your epic no dodge playthrough and no hit everything you pretend you can beause Dark Souls 2 hitboxes are complete trash
Instead you will tank everything by purely spamming lifegem effects because Dark Souls 2 was designed by retards

The only balancing check dodgerolling needs is to delay stamina regen and to forc ethe player to be passive, with aggressive enemies
Dark Souls 2 fails at this so it's the actual one Souls game where rolling is always a good option and will hardly ever get you punished short of completely off timing. Even at 3 ADP you still get more than enough iframes to dodge through bosses, but try and sidestep an attack with 30 meters wide hitbox

>its that one autist with a hate boner for ds2 again
yeah dude i really liked when ringed city made me spend even more time in shitty boring swamps filled with meme enemies
>Yes it is. ADP improves everything from making your shield raise aster to using consumable much quicker
yes and its not mandatory and the game still plays best without it
>are near indispensable in PVP against any remotely decent player, especisly in Dark Souls 2,
Well i invaded people just fine so its fine

>>718822252
>the ones that actually had variety in bosses and encounters
The 'variety' was between good fights and fights that sucked.
There's no way to make Dragon God or Bed of Chaos good, so there's no reason to ever iterate on the formula.
Same goes for gimmick bosses like Armored Spider or Seath. They're never going to be good, so they got left behind.
Souls level design has only gotten tougher with time. DeS is very easy for someone that just got done beating the Elden Ring DLC, level design included. Enir Ilim is a harder level than any in DeS. The Shadow Keep is a harder navigation puzzle than any in DeS.

>>718816358
>anybody who cares about this thing you spend 98% of the time doing and whose entire gameplay loop is combat to level up and be better at combat is retarded

>>718841097
>meme enemies
The judicators alone are 10 times more interesting than any actual Dark Souls 2 boss
>and the game still plays best without it
It doesn't. Dark Souls 2 is a shit game with boss design especially inferior to Dark Souls base game and way inferior to Artorias of the Abyss, so you have to pretend forfeiting iframes (which isn't true) adds depth to this shallow braindead mess. It doesnt because even in the boring Dark Souls 2 DLCs bosses are still basic as fuck and will do gat little swings and pokes that you best iframe. Not that it matters because you have virtually infinite hp by simply stacking a normal sized mid game hp bar and keeping lifegems effects

>>718816358
fpbp

Fighting two normal enemies at the same time in DeS, DS1 or DS2 is a more complex process than fighting any 1v1 boss in Elden Ring. This is an objective fact.

>>718816263 (OP)
rolling has its place, but they turned it into the only way to mitigate all the retardedly strong fuckhuge attacks because of the i-frames, which in my opinion is more of an exploit than good gameplay.

>>718841693
Of course, how could we forget about such memorable bosses like Throne Watcher and Throne Defender

>>718816687
cant have an RPG be an RPG in 2025, sorry

>>718816263 (OP)
>>718816358
>>718816687
Agreed
Plus ds1 is the only good souls/soulslike game. All other games except for sekiro are garbage rollslop. Amd it's not the combat, it's the world and exploration, the ambience and aesthetics

>>718820261
It can also be added that if a magician wants to use something from STR, then he spend mana on it and he would not be able to do it for too long.

>>718826112
You aren't being forced to roll, but unless you built around blocking and leveled strength enough to use a greatshield, and endurance to sustain using it, and then grabbed the right talismans, and the right ashes of war, it really is worse than rolling.
People are comparing rolling to end-game DLC shield builds where they have the Greatshield Talisman, Verdigris Talisman, Dragoncrest Talisman, and the Turtle Talisman, among whatever others one would use, and are spamming Barricade Shield and shield poking against Consort Radahn.
Like yeah, if you have pumped everything into a greatshield build and have chosen the most oppressive boss in the game to go against, then yeah, its the best play style.
If you are having difficulty against, say, normal Radahn in Caelid where you just don't even have access to most of those items or levels, you are in a totally different situation.

The problem is that they took a semi-grounded combat system and progressively turned it into ghetto DMC. It evolved into something it was never originally intended to be and it shows

>>718816687
Hot take: iframes dont make you dodge better. Vitality does.
>>718820890
Wrong, the lower equip load you are the further you roll and the faster you refill your stamina. A 69% equip load build pumped with adp will get like 3 rolls max because you put nothing into Endurance. Roll distance also has the benefit of basically replicating what iframes does anyway.

>blocking
Trivializes most of non-boss enemies. You are only ever at some danger if mob you fight has a grab move, or you go out of your way to aggro entire location.
Makes boss fights hit or miss - some bosses just fold in front of a shield, others are clearly made to fuck with shield users.
>dodging
Underlying mechanics of dodge roll enforce very unintuitive decisions (such as rolling INTO attacks instead of away from them).
Softly forces player into glass cannon territory by way of equip load and roll tiers, which results in hit or miss overall experience - you are fine as long as you dodge right, but one mistake is all it takes to get sent to bonfire.
>parrying
Extremely hit or miss mechanic that relies on either trial and error, or meta gaming by reading guides/datamines/frame data to figure out what you can parry (visuals unfortunately don't convey all that well which attacks are parryable, especially where it really matters - when fighting bosses).
Riposte, as second half of a parry, forces invincibility frames on player, making it very weird in non 1-on-1 fights and violating the core principle of the game (that is, your actions have weight and consequences, you should think twice before doing something that leaves you open and defenceless).

In other words, it's all shit.

>>718828965
Just don't use the internet.
You are your own worst enemy here.
If Fextralife appears in your browser history more than 10 times within a week of a game's release, you are the problem.

>>718841836
Nope
>>718841901
Dark Souls 2 completely killed build variety and rpg mechanics. You literally do more damage with a fire infused fire sword aainst a fire boss than a normal sword because of is retaded damage system
>>718842039
No
>>718842007
>but unless you built around blocking
You dont build around blocking
>and leveled strength enough to use a greatshield,
You don't need a greatshield
>and endurance to sustain using it
every build uses endurance
>and then grabbed the right talismans,
every build uses talismans
>and the right ashes of war,
every build uses ashes if war
>it really is worse than rolling.
It isn't

>>718816358
FPBP
Older FROM games had great level designs with cool exploration with a boss that was mainly just a cherry on the top. Now it's all about muh epic spasmic spectacular boss fights and levels that are more focused on looking good than actually being rewarding to explore.
Funnily enough, this is also something that plenty of Soulslikes don't get, focusing on combat instead of exploration and items.

>>718816358
fpbp

>>718831885
Nice on anon, caught me by surprise

>>718816263 (OP)
>2011
>From decides to make blocking the main damage mitigation mechanic instead of rolling
>Alternate timeline is created and time passes
>It's 2025 in the alternate time
>OP wakes up and goes to his pc
>Sweat rolling down his cheeks from the gargantuan effort, he boots up his pc, goes on 4chan and starts typying
>"The Dark Souls series would have been better, if it stuck with rolling as the main form of damage mitigating, as opposed to blocking [...]"
and thus the cycle continues

>>718842007
Wait, you telling me I have to build my character? In this Action Role Playing Game?

>>718842246
You do build around blocking to at least some significant level.
You can't just grab a random mid sized shield and pull it out against Rellana if you have trouble and expect it to benefit you more than learning to roll her attack patterns better. There's a necessary amount of preamble and 'class building' that you have to do for it to work.
This includes stats like Endurance, where the typical amount being used for a build is going to differ wildly between a magic/incant build and a shield build, for example. Where if a mage wanted to use a shield, they'd have to redo a lot of their stats to facilitate that and sacrifice levels somewhere for it.
This also includes Talismans or Ashes of War, where each slot you give to using that shield is one that you sacrifice for another build. And given how dependant most end-game builds are on good talismans, this can be pretty substantial.

Greatshields are way better than other shields, and while not STRICTLY necessary, they're 'highly encouraged'.
This is a point where more is more is more, and diminishing returns don't really exist. If you want to use a shield, you want to use a greatshield. Any buffs that benefit lower weight shields improve greatshields way more.

>>718841464
Lmao first thought i had too. One of the worst copes by soulsfags ever, the combat doesnt synergize with the idea that the 'exploration' is the best part of souls games.

>>718842546
The implication when people say, 'Blocking is really good', for someone not in the know, is that "I can just add a shield to my build and it will make the game much easier".
This really isn't true at all. Shields require a lot of investment to become powerful and you cannot trivially just start trying to block attacks or combos from powerful enemies, and expect it to go well for you.
This lack of communication is what I'm addressing. Not that shields are always bad, but that they're not easily good.

>>718830808
Devil May Cry sucks and the whole 'button mash on punching bag enemies to see the letter in the corner change' focus is just boring.

>>718842790
>You do build around blocking to at least some significant level.
No you don't
>You can't just grab a random mid sized shield and pull it out against Rellana if you have trouble and expect it to benefit you more than learning to roll her attack patterns better.
Yes you can, you can take a 10 STR medium shield and that works just fine even without barricade shield
>There's a necessary amount of preamble and 'class building' that you have to do for it to work.
Nope
>This includes stats like Endurance, where the typical amount being used for a build is going to differ wildly between a magic/incant build and a shield build, for example. Where if a mage wanted to use a shield, they'd have to redo a lot of their stats to facilitate that and sacrifice levels somewhere for it.
There's no such thing as a shield build. This term doesn't exist. It's made up by you and other retards that never bothered picking up a shield
>This also includes Talismans or Ashes of War, where each slot you give to using that shield is one that you sacrifice for another build.
No it doesn't. The shield ss its own ash of war, and the talisman is not needed nor crippling to have when shield build usually avoid charged R2s.
>And given how dependant most end-game builds are on good talismans, this can be pretty substantial.
No it isn't

>Greatshields are way better than other shields, and while not STRICTLY necessary, they're 'highly encouraged'.
>This is a point where more is more is more, and diminishing returns don't really exist. If you want to use a shield, you want to use a greatshield. Any buffs that benefit lower weight shields improve greatshields way more.
No, if you can't use shields, that's on you

>>718835492
>>718835678
>>718836731
Being able to roll through dragon fire or Malenia dropping a literal nuclear bomb on me, does take me out of the experience.
That the same dodge roll you use against grunts works against massive AoEs is shitty design.

>>718842967
>Shields require a lot of investment to become powerful
Nope, they don't

>>718816263 (OP)
I like how heavy the first game felt. Combined with the interconnected exploration it made for a really good experience. Every dark souls games after that was too fast and the focus on exploration was gone, replaced by combat and mp autism.

>>718829515
Accurate

>>718816358
kill yourself, explore what retard? oh wow you discovered an item you're never going to use and some words which are part of the shallow lore nobody cares about!!

the whole point of the game is to kill bosses.

i was surprised when i did a blocking run for DS1, and i could block the attacks of most bosses with just a shield.

>>718816358
>play better games
Such as? there's no other 3D game series out there that preserves the sense of realism (i-frames aside) while also being high fantasy with multiple weapon movesets

>>718824729
Evergrace

>>718830916
>if you block at the same time as the enemy attacks, the enemy always takes priority and passes your block
what the fuck is this bullshit you are just entirely wrong or have the reactions of a geriatric
>if you attack at the same time as the enemy, the enemy takes priority and you're stunned
you can cheese 90% of this game with ring of stone and rapier spam interrupting enemy attacks
you simply havent played the game

>>718828483
actually its even worse
certain armor pieces are given bonuses to things like jump attacks so if you do those you dont get to wear anything else
if you want pure fashion play bloodborne but then 80% of the armors are just the hunter set with variations

>>718833790
>All they had to do was make it a bit more obvious what the stat did.
Because they didn't explain it at all. That's the only reason why.

>>718840347
have you actually played any of the games?

>>718816263 (OP)
yeah. I beat 1 and 2 with a 100% phys protection shield and a longsword / bastard sword. But then 3 came out and the shields had no fucking stability on them unless they were huge, and ER made this worse. It really sucks, beating DS sword and board was really me being in my element. It was such a small change but nerfing stability on smaller shields just hurts. Shit like that bronze shield in ER just isn't it man.

>>718847420
Yes I finished all 7 games

>Demons Souls and Dark Souls II are my favorite.
>Better exploration and better combat.

>>718816358
I preferred killing things in these games than exploring. Blythetown is a miserable place, Anor Londo feels like a hallucinatory IKEA and Sens Fortress just makes me dread going forward.

>>718816263 (OP)
I agree with you, OP. The game was sold to me as a sword & shield game. I was disappointed to see the meta became naked people cartwheeling around while wielding and zweihander. Don't let the haters make you doubt yourself.

When DS2 fags talk about "RPG mechanics" they mean everyone using the same old robflynn lighting infused blunt weapon with dark weapon buff is deep and complex.

Zelda is the only game that made shield good, everything else sucks. If you ever used a shield in a souls games I'm afraid you're a tranny

Elden Ring is the absolute pinnacle of the Souls formula and I'm tired of pretending it isn't.

>>718848883
>she feels the need to use the shield in Zelda
You didn't beat the game

>>718843316
>There's no such thing as a shield build.

>>718851448
HOLY BASED

>>718816687
I didn't like that adaptability made you raise your shield slower. Losing roll I-frames was punishment enough for not putting points into it, but it also takes more frames to be protected with the shield when you hold the button. It's the stat you need to raise if you want effective defense at all.
I like your idea with stability and adp. Kinda wish they were implemented, but they don't call the series roll slop for nothing. People want an action game, not an rpg. Using a shield at all is frowned upon.

>>718852368
regidrago if he real

The only advantage ER greatshield have is that they're easy to use. Medium shields can parry in a game where many enemies can be trivialized with parry, make enemies bounce off just like a greatshield with barricade shield, and if you want to minmax guard counters you'd be using deflect tear anyway and a medium shield mean you aren't punished as hard for missed deflects compared to 2h most weapons and they're significantly lighter and have less stat requirements so any character can use them.

>>718816263 (OP)
I played through all of elden ring with blocking being the main form of damage mitigation and even beat the DLC with no fragments with it.

>>718816263 (OP)
One of us.

>>718831902
?? you can block in like 4 out of 5 souls games

>>718821364
Magic in souls games sucks because you're spending 2 bars, blue and green with not enough of a damage difference to compensate for it. Hell in Elden Ring even the range "advantage" isn't even that much of an advantage when every single boss has a fuck you gap closer in almost every single one of their multihit combos.

>>718817935
Like anything else that's "viable" in Elden Ring, a parody-tier version of a blocking build will cheese most of the game (except Malenia)
ER is a game where you come up with builds that break the game and demolish bosses. All the complexity of their movesets or the options you're given are a meme, only about 20% of the stuff in the game is actually "viable"

>>718837394
It was in Elden Ring's CNT

World of Warcraft has better bosses than Dark Souls

>>718856360
Even Malenia can be cheesed with shield poking
You just have to out-DPS her

>>718828998
It is my favorite game. It gave me exactly what I wanted.

>>718816263 (OP)
IMO dodges should be replaced with vaulting.
>Can quickly reposition you to a more advantageous position
>Can interrupt the enemy's attack
>No I-frames, if you fuck up the timing you will be punished
>Should be as hard to perform as a parry

>>718837308
That too. Then the new games got rid of it.

>>718854016
Does a medium shield work?

>>718816263 (OP)
Nioh does it best
>rolling has very iframes and will get you murdered if you spam it. it's only really viable if you build around it and wear light armor
>blocking is quite good at baseline, and even better if you spec into it and use weapons with high block stats
>you can use special moves and yokai soul cores to leap into the air or to the side to dodge moves
>merely walking around and repositioning is also very effective

>>718857183
ER already does all that.

>>718816263 (OP)
Blocking is retarded and gay
>Full sorcery, pyromancy, miracle user
>No investment in endurance
>Wear heaviest poise set possible
>Iron Flesh
>Proceed to walk casually though boss sperg rush while shitting magic missiles like a giant tiger tank with lasers steam rolling over a crate of babies

>>718857183
>Nioh does it best
>Walking around and repositioning is very effective
>Shows common enemy doing a full 180 spin to home in into the player like a fucking cruise missile and 1hk him

>>718857183
Nioh has the most basic bitch bosses and enemies ever
Also Nioh dodge is spammable and OP, anybody would trade fewer iframes for less than half duration

>>718816687
the issue is that designing bosses for an inconsistent number of iframes is very difficult if your priority is making the game an anime trial and error ebin bossrush

>>718816687
they shit their pants for a decade because they refused to raise a main stat anon, they arent going to go for it.

>>718857872
Trial and error is user inflicted by choosing to guess when to roll every new attack instead of simply blocking while backpedalling.

>>718857183
>Those U-turns
It's insane how bad unlocked movement is in Nioh
It doesn't matter how much people try to show off, it's literally not possible for it to be as fluid and well made as not-DS2 Souls movement

That's why Sekiro has the best combat of any soulsborne game

>>718829446
That you just run through because dealing with regular enemies is just a waste of resources and time. Death doesn't matter because of the checkpoint system, along with the fact that it respawns enemies, that running simply becomes the most optimal solution bar none even when you have no idea where to go.

>>718856514
incorrect. also wow has an ugly-ass cartoony art style/direction.

>>718858210
Too fast for me. I like Dark Souls because it was slow and methodical. That you could play as a knight, not a ninja cosplaying as one.

>>718816716
You can't just hold down a button and do nothing. Getting hit while blocking depletes your stamina. If you just hold block you'll eventually get staggered and fucked up. It's a good balance where you block but need to keep moving. I don't know how people like to roll knowing that the onyl reason they don't get hit is because of gay i-frames exploits.

>>718858238
Running through levels, looking up guides and resorting to cheese to beat bosses is a symptom of a weak player who needs crutches. I clear levels because it's fun.

>>718816358
They hated him because he spoke the truth.

>>718858426
Except that games exploration sucked ass.

>>718816358
Agreed, I think ER shouldn't have tried to balance weapons because all felt the same, I want some tools to engage with the combat as exploration aspect in a different way, not a +5% damage and that's it, I want weird shit like shields that make certain goes cower or glowing swords that dispel ascertain type of projectiles.
The whole invisible Assassins unless you have the torch that reveals them was great to make you think and switch to a different needed tool.

>>718824663
>What is bloodborne

>>718858689
A mountain inside a volcano sounds kino though no matter how bullshit stupid it is.

>>718829481
I like the secret 1/3rd of Enir Ilim that you need discover to find the Euporia.

>>718858749
>I want gay gimmicks because I'm a clueless retard that can't understand moveset differences and nuance

Main issue with ER is they ditched the invasions. The single-player gameplay is not an issue.

>>718857183
>particle effects slop
>combo slop
>stats slop
>loot slop
Nioh is fucking shit.
Play Sekiro if you want some proper ninja shit

>>718859017
gimmicks are the backbone of video games

>>718858210
Elden Ring is best sir

>>718858689
If time can be convoluted in Lordran, space can be convoluted in Drangleic. Suck my dick.

>>718858824
The mountain doesnt exist.

>>718859017
At least you realize what you are.

>>718859243
>even the haters have dozens of elden ring areas indelibly imprinted into their mind because of how memorable they are

>>718859017
>"T-this guy does 3% more damage and has a green hat"
Wow, no wonder the industry started to go to shit when catering to faggots like you.

>>718859101
nigger play Tenchu if you want proper ninja shit

>>718829504
>Well it used to be like that but nowadays everyone just looks up a guide for the strongest strength or dex weapon and then complains that it's easy
that's how it has always been, fuck off with the revisionism crap

>>718858238
>That you just run through because dealing with regular enemies is just a waste of resources and time. Death doesn't matter because of the checkpoint system, along with the fact that it respawns enemies, that running simply becomes the most optimal solution bar none even when you have no idea where to go.
just like every game before it, with the only exception being DS2

>>718857183
The Niohfag inferiority complex
Your games will always be cheap tryhard trash with abysmal art style on top of running on an ugly ass engine

>>718859101
What makes me most sad about Sekiro is that since it didn't do as well as Elden Ring FROM won't ever try again to innovate, instead going for the latest trending shit like Fortnite and other stuff in the future.

>>718859669
I agree.

>>718859280
>If time can be convoluted in Lordran
You don't even understand what that means, just like Dark Souls 2 devs didn't understand the original

>>718859771
>What makes me most sad about Sekiro is that since it didn't do as well as Elden Ring FROM won't ever try again to innovate
It literally just got an anime announced anon
And from doesn't give a shit what does well and not, otherwise they wouldn't have tried resurrecting armored core from the dead

>>718841531
>shittier than base game dark souls
Haha
At least say Demon's Souls retardbro. There's like, 3 bosses in base Dark Souls that go beyond the "it's alright" category tops.
>inb4 b-but DS2 has none!
Sure buddy. Anyways I'll be heading over to your mom's while you keep typing.

>>718856839
Or simply some form of dodge/vault that puts you outside of the enemy hotzone and chains into other attack chains.
But this is going dangerously close to the character-action genre and lose the soul of Souls (heh), although Sekiro made some noises in the right direction.

>>718858689
The ds1 map model literally noclips several areas together

>>718859912
AI generated anime for half the money their Korean slaves once did it for doesn't count.
And I feel with Armored Core they tried to take the untapped slice of the pie that was the desolate waste of mech games.

>>718859989
Least delusional DS2 fan

>>718859989
DeS has only two good bosses, and one is only good for the vibe (Vinland).
That game is massively overrated other than being appreciated for its novelty.

>>718860481
The game only needed one Flamelurker, not 20. Slow and methodical knight game. Zelda games have puzzle bosses and I don't have a problem with those. Action slop ruined Souls and Soulslikes for me.

>>718816263 (OP)
not reading this thread, I just came to say that you can still block if you want to. what the hell are you talking about? just because dodging is the preferred way to play by most people doesn't mean you can't still block your way to success, and they even added guard counters to encourage that playstyle as opposed to tapping circle like a crack addicted seal in captivity that knows every fish he's fed comes laced with cocaine every time he presses the magic button.

>>718860658
Tell that to Rellana and her DLC buddies. Look at them and tell me that a medium shield can even work the way its supposed to. Souls is Slow. If it is not, it is not Souls or anything resembling Souls.

>>718859101
>Bootleg Souls with animu comboshit that has absymal enemy design, much worse bosses and gacha-tier systems
>Dex Souls where you spam L1 and R1 and that has no level design
I'll stick with Souls games and Elden Ring, thanks

>>718859890
It means whatever the fuck From wants it to mean. King's Field 4's first fucking area has lava floors right next to a deep well filled with water while a catacomb runs practically right in between them. It doesn't have to make sense if they don't want it to.

>>718816263 (OP)
DS1 strikes the best balance of rolling and blocking.
In DS2 rolling is too slow unless you commit half your build to speeding it up (who thought this was a good idea).
In DS3 they go to far in the other direction, shields just become useless.
Even in elden ring shields are significantly worse than rolling, since enemies just zip around the screen like retards and chain 8 hit combos on you.
also this >>718816358

>>718859017
You are a retarded faggot

>>718860996
No, it means that eras collide as undead can travel through time
Shart Souls 2 is a fucking abomination

>>718861023
>Even in elden ring shields are significantly worse than rolling
I swear the people that say this shit literally did not play the game. Shields are the best they have ever been in ER.

>>718861023
>In DS3 they go to far in the other direction, shields just become useless.
Shitter

>>718860748
you can block pretty much everything in the game, provided you've the kit for it. yes, some bosses are faster than others, but therein lies the problem. it's not that you can't block, or that you must rely on rolling, it's that the frequency of attacks is so much substantially higher than before that you need to spend a great deal of time learning any boss' patterns to the extent that you know exactly when it's safe to attack. what's worse to me is when they add nonsensical one-hit kill abilities, like bayle's breath attacks, or previously midir's breath attacks, that are more for spectacle than functionality, and require the player to do a specific thing in order to avoid them. fuck that shit. give me 1000 godskin duos before you decide that shit is acceptable.

>>718861023
>In DS3 they go to far in the other direction, shields just become useless.
Git gud
>Even in elden ring shields are significantly worse than rolling
Git gud

>>718861529
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DELELTE THIS YOU FUCKING RETARD YOU ARE RUINING MY NARRATIVE

>>718816687
Here's the thing about Adaptability that nobody really wants to admit: It was a neat idea, but it was implemented in the most retarded way possible. It's really two massive things that make it fucking retarded:
1. It's not actually really designed very well around the animation itself, notably if you have too low of Adaptability you actually end up with vulnerable frames where your model is splayed out in the roll animation. This in turn results in really janky interactions where the player can easily get caught out by attacks (especially since a lot of DaS2 attacks already have retarded or nonsensical hitboxes in the first place) that ironically would have possibly whiffed had the player just not rolled. It makes the roll at early levels a very needlessly cumbersome defensive option and the weirdness doesn't really add any strategic depth to choosing to roll.
2. Agility is just really poorly explained and implemented as a mechanic. The primary benefit of the stat is increasing your iframe count, but the actual increments are very arbitrarily placed and do not correlate with singular increases in Agility. This means that, despite pumping the number up, you can end up with Agility gains that are just completely dead for most players (b-but muh item speed totally matters). This ambiguity is a cardinal sin in Souls design, compare to increasing Str/Dex/Int/Faith where the player can explicitly see how their current weapon AR is affected by every increase in said stats.
The fixes for both major issues are actually pretty simple.
1. Just make the player's legs intangible through the roll animation (or at least the 16 frame duration rolls can max out at), like holy shit this is such a simple and obvious fucking thing to do.
2. Compress agility so every gain in agility makes a meaningful difference in roll i-frames. I shouldn't have to look at a fucking online chart just to know that my new point in agility actually does something for me.

>>718861278
Wrong. The fingerprint shield builds everybody spams are strong, but your entire build and weapon have to be warped around using it.
In DS1 you just pick any medium shield and weapon and you are done.

>>718859548
>I'm too retarded to understand what each weapon does so they are all interchangeable to me
No wonder you retards suck so bad at the game
Also quit samefagging

>>718861768
Wrong

>>718820890
The real sin of DaS2 was that it made rolling the dominate strategy over poise. DaS2 niggers hate this fact but poise and armor are actually worthless in DaS2, arguably even moreso than in DaS3. In DaS1 poise had the opposite issue of being vastly overpowered, but at the very least the game was still smart enough to put in a number of fights where you actually wanted to lower your armor and be in fast roll range over just face tanking everything. In DaS2 and onwards you really don't have much of a reason to ever swap out your armor once you find that sweet spot. Hell in DaS2 you're probably just going to rock low armor anyway since Flynn's Ring is one of the best rings in the game.

>>718860996
King's Field 4 is dogshit, like ds2
Zin is a shitty producer, we know that

>>718861529
>using lock-on
Didn't beat the game

>>718861348
>>718861529
>actually shields are better in DS3
>behold a clip where I take damage, where rolling here would have caused 0 damage
>this means taking damage is better than not taking damage!

>>718859280
Incidentally space could be convoluted in Lordran, but when it was it was typically done in a way to explicitly highlight the ethreal nature of the location you were currently in (the bottom of the world, the resting place of the fire the fuels the world). DaS2 just breaks space arbitrarily because the devs wanted a volcano level and they didn't care how theme parky it felt.

>>718861529
Did you whiff a parry there to abuse i-frames and face tank that laser?
That's pretty fucking cool actually.

>>718860996
The point of that explanation in DS1 is solely to explain the summoning/phantom system in universe. The DS2 devs, like everything else in that game, misunderstood the originals intent here.

Defensive moves don't exist in isolation.
In DS3 shields are usable but it's hard to justify using them when rolling is easy enough
In ER you are often rewarded with guard counters and parrying is more universal so relying on roll means you often miss out on a punish moves better than basic R1

>>718862008
>actually taking some chip damage safely is worse than risking taking full damage+extra for being hit on active frames in case you mistime a roll

>>718862008
1. demon prince's fire breath attack will still hurt you through a shield because shields have a physical and elemental absorption rating; physical absorption tends to be better across the board, with varying levels of elemental absorption depending on the shield in question.
2. demon prince's physical attacks are augmented by flame, so they deal both physical and fire damage. when you block them, you receive chip damage from the attack that is dependent on your shield's fire absorption alongside any other buffs you've activated from consumables or through your rings.

it looks like this person is using the dragoncrest shield, which has a rather high 89 fire defense, and thus the webm showcases that there are options for those who don't want to dodge roll but still defend against both physical and elemental attacks.
>hurr but if you rolled you'd receive zero damage
yes but the point is to showcase that there are viable alternatives to rolling. at any rate, most enemies in the game don't deal a combination of physical and elemental damage at one time, so you can safely bet on any heater shield to block physical attacks. the same is true in elden ring.

>>718862515
Sounds like you're the one who needs to "git gud" then.

>>718862217
that always got on my nerves. it was perfectly fine when you got the Ashen Mist Heart to go into the Giants memory, those levels were kino if you ask me. I think the Devs even admitted the elevator was supposed to go down instead of up. probably wouldve helped that you walk down a long fucking hallway or something or have a transitional level like Valley of the Drakes to connect to the elevator.
it even happens in DS3 after you fight Oceiros and go through a hallway and wow, you're back in time! fucking ridiculous.

People also use the whole "time and space is convoluted!!" gimmick to justify the lore not making sense or whatever

>>718862547
The issue I have is stability. If you don't have enough and the enemy goes for big swings or a long combo, there's a good chance to get stuck in an animation and then take even more damage because of guard-break than if you would've took it on the chin. Best example is Sif with his spin attack. So, if you don't have enough stability, then you'll still roll. I do appreciate Elden Ring having Barricade, but wish it wasn't an AoW or at the very least didn't consume mana. Also would've preferred having parry and blocking be the same button, so you still need to tap it at the right time, but it frees up a button.

Elden Ring is the best From Software game because the Bandai Namco splash screen doesn't flashbangs you at 2am anymore

>>718863850
Shame about the entrance to the Radagon fight.

>>718862995
>stability
I mean as long as you're upgrading your shield, you should be fine, at least on NG. by the time you have reached anor londo in DaS3 you should be able to get a maxed out shield, but even if you don't, some amount of upgrade is better than none, and I don't see a problem with using a combination of blocking and dodging. it's not like you have to rely on one or the other, and only autists who are incredibly committed to a certain playstyle think like that.
>barricade
a good ability but yes it should consume less mana.

>>718863850
Shame the screen still flashes white when you open the game.

>>718816263 (OP)
>if it stuck with blocking as the main form of damage mitigating
But it did, you just never got good at it. Blocking got buffed in each subsequent game but you were afraid to use to not anger reddit who dictates how people should play these games.

>>718863850
>flash bang
>SCHWING
>BWAAAAAAAaaaaa
soul

>>718864076
a lot of should's there bro
joking aside, a few points in stability is not going to help, if its even noticeable, so you're gonna have to max it out, not just a few points. But that's a hefty investment when you could use a better shield for free. Then later on you can invest in that better shield to get even more out of it. Most people prioritize weapons anyway, because of how easy rolling can be used.
>see a problem with using a combination
I think it's because if you can't block it, you'll roll through it, and sooner or later you'll realize that rolling can handle every issue. It's one of the reasons why so many players prefer to roll even now.

>>718834682
trvke

>>718843316
>There's no such thing as a shield build

>>718816263 (OP)
No. They needed to go full Berserk.
No dodging.
No shields.
Hyper-armor and parry only.
Raise armor upgrading to +25.
Give everyone passive health regeneration.
Make normal healing FTH-only.
Leveling up FTH/DEX/STR/INT adds armor penetration to those attacks.
Using a weapon over and over automatically upgrades it.

>>718859512
newfag, that meme was made during the CNT days
it has nothing to do with memory, it was just an autist shitposting out of boredom as that content was all we had for months

People have been roll spamming since ds3, 9 years ago. You only care now because else someone told you it's bad. You're lucky you weren't around for the tide pod memes.

>>718861682
>It makes the roll at early levels a very needlessly cumbersome defensive option and the weirdness doesn't really add any strategic depth to choosing to roll.
you're supposed to roll OUT OF THE WAY if you have low ADP
not through attacks

>>718866054
Having the weird ass hurtbox issue makes it even worse for repositioning than it is for just rolling through shit, it's why so many people get HIPPO'd in the early game. That's why it comes across as a dumb oversight.
>inb4 you flip your argument because DaS2 can do no wrong.

>Wear heaviest armor
>Equip greatshield
>One hand Zweihänder
Yup, it's raping time

>>718866402
>figure it out, every souls game :)
>figure it out, dark souls 2 >:O

>>718816263 (OP)
Blocking is completely viable, and is way more safe than rolling. You guys are such fucking fags I swear. There are tons of situations where rolling like a monkey is way more dangerous than throwing up a heavy shield.

>>718866532
You're being disingenuous anon, other Souls games don't have retarded collision issues born from variable i-frame counts on rolls.

Sure let me just--
>only 2% of the shields have proper mitigation
>lose all your stamina (have to make stamina a dump stat to be good)
>kickback on blocked attacks can make you fall to your death
yuck, what were they thinking

2 fucked up the defense meta by gutting poisé and physical defense, so armorbwas dumbed down to purely fashion. The subsequent games just doubled down on it and focused on rolling

>>718866993
>bloodbornefag mental gymnastics
bloodborne was miyazaki literally saying "we're never making defense good ever again."

>>718866402
>Having the weird ass hurtbox
??

>>718816263 (OP)
anon needs to do the black knight halberd run right now.

>>718862669
First of all, you claimed shields were useless >>718861023
When someone posted a guy making use of shields in ds3 you said it was invalid because of chip damage.
You call it a skill issue when they gave a situation in which taking chip is more favorable than taking full damage.
Are you equating skill to damage negation on shields?
Because there has never been a shield who has 100 physical and 100 elemental damage negation or even just 100 elemental damage negation. That would be a whole new argument.

>>718865768
play Khazan: The First Berserker

Rolling is basically free in Elden Ring, while blocking feels like a tax on your build. Why does From keep making defensive play so much harder to invest in?

>>718842546
You have to build your character a certian way UNLESS you are rolling, retard nigger

>>718865739
that aint a shield build, thats a ranged build
disliked, unsubbed, doxxed, check your mail for the anthrax glitterbomb fucko

>>718868382
Here you go
I wonder if the audio file is still up

>>718859017
kys
This is why the industry is the way it is, because of faggots like you

>>718867889
>Roll roll roll roll roll roll, finally I got a rolling R1
>Block, guard counter, haha time for riposte

>>718816358
He won.

>>718868673
>threw consumables
I told you once, liar. Im not gonna tell you again

>>718869453
>getting hit before guard counter because you have no clue when the 10 hit combo ends.

>>718869908
As opposed to
>getting hit during your roll spam because you have no clue when the 10 hit combo ends.

>>718869908
>>718870521
So we're all in agreement that these 10-hit anime attacks need to stop, right?

>>718871661
People who started with DS3 and ER love it, so don't expect them to go anywhere.

>>718816382
I don't know if it's just me, but seeing a warrior in full plate armor armed with a two handed warhammer doing soviet gymnastics routines looks so silly to me

>>718871661
Having no clue when the 10 hit combo ends is, in fact, a skill issue. A more studious player would simply know.

>>718837105
>no one here is praising DS2
The game.
You mentioned it.
I came.

>>718871661
It has to go. I physically cannot deal with this anymore. This is not Souls to me.
>>718874527
To me, Souls was never about mechanical skill. That ain't gonna help much in a place like Blighttown or the Tomb of the Giants. If I want a game about mechanical skill, I'll boot up NInja Gaiden.

>>718816263 (OP)
>if it stuck with blocking as the main form of damage mitigating, as opposed to rolling
You talk as if rolling wasn't the best way to avoid damage since Demon's. Hell, DaS1 has the DWGR

>>718816263 (OP)
anti-roll autism must be tied to depression, it's basically looking for an excuse to ruin the game for yourself
nevermind that you can still block as much as you want in every game but bloorodbne, and in ER it's finally feasible to just block with your weapon 2handed

NGL I always felt stupid how powerful no shield was from Dark Souls II onwards. It kinda made sense for Bloodborne but the unreasonable effectiveness of rolling compared to shields was a mistake in balancing these games.

>>718835370
>Bosses are all dudes in armor in Dark Souls 2
Still more memorable than the bosses in Dark Souls 3 and Elden Ring. Funny how they managed that?

>>718863850
Doesn't AC6 have the same new Bandai logo?

>>718836731
Morgott is already 70% of the way through the game? That's pretty disappointing.
I stopped playing after I beat Morgott and I learned I had to let Melina die to continue onward. Didn't know I already played over 70% of the game kek

>>718858689
>still complaining about the Earthen Peak elevator
Anon, the whole point of Dark Souls 2 is that you're actively suiccumbing to hollowing and the only thing that can save you is pursuing the Throne. Iron Keep isn't literally above Earthen Peak, it's your character forgetting in real time how you got to Iron Keep. It's supposed to work in dream logic, as you wander around from place to place to get the four Lord Souls "without really knowing why".

>>718878445
Yeah for mandatory bosses you had Fire Giant (terrible fight), Godskin Duo (the worst boss in Elden Ring), Malikeh (actually cool), Gideon (wouldn't even count him but he gets a health bar), Hoarah Loux (also cool) and the final fight which is half cool half annoying. You didn't really miss much and honestly in subsequent playthroughs by the time I get to the mountaintops I just abandon the run.

>>718879036
I love the Fire Giant. It didn't make me roll every other second like most encounters.

>>718878445
There's basically just one mandatory level after it, the snowy giants place. Two optional levels, and then finale which is more like kiln of the first flame from DS1 rather than a real area.

>>718878993
>headcanon
fuck off DS2 troon
everyone hates your garbage ass game

>>718879545
Just saying. Not every boss needs to be Artorias again.

>>718879545
I wish I liked fire giant more. It's a very cool boss, and the gameplay is a welcome break from the "study moveset and openings until you land more hits than you take" style of boss typical of these games. But when I do a 'quick' playthrough of the game and fight him at RL 80 with +18-20 weapon, the pacing of the fight completely breaks down. Little annoyances like uneven terrain putting you into an airborne state unexpectedly, his AI deciding to roll away 6 times in a row, his animations being obscured because your camera got too close to a limb and his model dithered away, and so forth just ruin the fight for me when it's an 8-minute slog in which you can die almost instantly. Most other bosses are more fun if you fight them while slightly underleveled, fire giant becomes horrendous, and since I rarely do completionist playthroughs of ER anymore, it's the typical experience I have of him.

>>718878993
cope

>>718878445
>I stopped playing after I beat Morgott and I learned I had to let Melina die to continue onward.
Based and Vykepilled

my game will have better combat
Miyazaki is a hack
3000 goblins dead

>>718816263 (OP)
Dark souls 2 was the only game that actually discourage rolling and people hated it. Even autismos are shit at the game.

>>718880581
>Dark souls 2 was the only game that actually discourage rolling
No it doesn't, in fact rolling was probably the least nerfed defensive option in 2 (getting a good 100% physical block shield is annoying, parry is probably at its weakest, poise and armor suck). It's just that all defensive options kind of suck in 2.

>>718880581
If anything it felt like DS2 heavily discouraged blocking because all shields are shit and your stamina takes forever to recover.

>>718868243
>>718868382
Does this count?

>>718868673
>>718869704

>>718816716
it doesn't block every direction dipshit, also there is a limit to how much it can take

>>718882986
What is this intelligence I see? My faithpilled ass doesn't compute it.
But seriously, though, isn't the Carian Thrusting Shield only available deep in the Shadow Keep?

>>718882986
If you have deflect tear active and time your attack so that you get hit just as the guard point starts, does it count as a deflect?

>>718883453
You can get it in like 10~15 minutes from entering the DLC if you know where to go.
Enter DLC > Run across the bridge and skip Castle Ensis to get to Scadu Altus through the Cliffspring jump to Fort of Reprimand > Get to Bonny Village by falling through the hole in Moorth Ruins > Run past Cathedral of Manus Metyr and enter Shadow Keep from the Church District in the back > Pick up the Carian Thrusting Shield after lowering the water level.

Then you can teleport back to the start of the DLC and play with the shield. It's easier to get it than the Dueling Shield, and you don't have to fight a single enemy to get it except the 3 bats that will attack you when you try to lower the water level in Shadow Keep.

>>718883453
I'm convinced they put the DLC weapons where they are specifically so you do NG+ runs with them.
It's funny how one of the new Tarnished Edition classes starts with a M'lady though.

>>718883921
>Like playing with the Bloody Helice in the main game
>See they released a new Scythe that has a similar Ash of War
>Want to use it in the DLC
>Have to beat Promised Consort Radahn to get it
NG+ it is...

>>718883921
>look at this class
>it's the new best class in the game for min-maxing any phys builds
Wild.

>>718883798
Running straight to the black keep fucks some NPC questlines like Thiollier's, doesn't it?

>>718816358
Soulds games are about looking at cool armor and shiny weapons. It's that simple.

>>718883765
I think it doesn't sadly.

>>718884114
Yea you're right, you'll want to talk to the NPCs before shattering Miquella's Rune. You don't have to fight any enemies in the DLC I'm pretty sure, just run and talk to them.

that's the other new class your thinking about, heavy knight, that starts out with a curved greatsword

>>718816263 (OP)
This is just indirectly saying Souls used to be about "What you do" rather than "How well you play".

Plenty of tricks and exploits in Elden Ring but the bosses sure aren't the gimmicks from Demon Souls.

>>718884643
meant to
>>718884052

>>718880286
oh shit I remember some of your early posts, good to see you're making progress and still at it

>>718816263 (OP)
How I, a Kingsfield chad, would fix dark souls from being a huge downgrade
>No rolling, just lock on and movement
>tighter enemy hitboxes
>map a button to magic, remove catalysts, add upgradable spells
>remove soft caps entirely to allow character strength to climb with NG+
>add BGM for every level
>remove every useless stat like resistance adaptability and luck
>make DLC weapons notably stronger than early game
This turns dark souls trilogy from a 6/10 to a 10/10. Its that easy to fix these mediocre games

>>718885731
and this is why fromsoft sells millions of copies and you don't

>>718885295
It's true though. Souls used to not be about "how well you play". The puzzle bosses gave the game life and made every encounter unique.

>>718885549
yeah! I'm more active than ever. Check out the itch page I set up some days ago if you want:
>https://tintoconcasera.itch.io/project-goblin

>>718886489
is he wearing blue jeans? i cant support this game

>blocking as the main form of damage mitigating, as opposed to rolling
Dodging was always the better form of damage mitigation in Dark Souls.
People just didn't have a thousand youtuber's telling them to dodgeroll. And kids playing Dark Souls would play as a "Knight" instead of using a wiki and minmaxing everything. People being terminally online is what caused the games to change.

>>718886709
They're linen trousers treated with indigo dye. Very authentic.

>>718887186
im skeptical, but alright. looking forward to its release in 2028

>>718887186
>some random warrior who has to dungeon delve to survive has INDIGO DYE pantaloons
immersion ruined

>>718887739
It's obviously to show his disgraced ex-noble origins. Those were his favorite trousers.

>>718816687
Ds2’s real strong point was that it felt like it tried harder to be an rpg in some sense.
Elden ring reintroduces more build flexibility but in the end it’s like a Bethesda game in that anything of interest or uniqueness is a concession of efficiency

>>718887186
>>718888156
for not being the actual dev of the game your responses are quite correct lmao
yeah the MC is a middle-aged fallen knight, which is also why the tunic above the chainmail looks a bit broken and the armor looks rusty

fucking up the poise mechanic and punishing the player too much while giving enemies and bosses every fucking advantage in the world over you
bosses stringing combos that do so much damage that your life bar needs to be the length of the entire screen in order to not get 1 shotted
having to kill multiple bosses and get to end game areas in order to just upgrade your
removing the multiple approaches to defeating bosses equipment at all ruined everything
>>718817880
>Parrying fucking sucks.
it was only good in DS1, because once you figured out how to activate it it made the game actually fun
they completely ruined it in later games when they decided that only certain attacks can be parried or you need a shield/weapon that good at parrying

There should be no equip load stat. Your roll should be determined by the armor you wear. If you wear full havel's set you should not be able to quick roll regardless of level

>>718817880
3S has yet to be surpassed, moron

>>718883921
>>718884037
I just cheat engine in super late game weapons if I want to use them for a run.

>>718884643
are there more leaks?

>>718816263 (OP)
I just went through this 3 times today.
I had acces to a shield.
I didnt use it agaunst balder knights one on one, as it woud be boring.
I had the Black Knight GS tho, so maybe it was because i had cool moves.

>>718879854
>>718880123
>cope and headcanon
Good thing the DS2 director directly stated that the game was supposed to feel like a dream, eh?

>>718892440
How convenient.

>>718885939
>le sales!
Corpo dick sleave

>souls thread
>look inside
>its a souls thread
dont know what i was expecting

Soulsslop just has shit combat but Fromjeet shills will try to convince you otherwise.

i dont get why people wear heavy armor when they want to do blocking. i like to block with wearing light armor. i mean its the shield thats absorbing the damage, not your armor.

>>718859101
You got filtered by Nioh.

>>718893785
I was just thinking about this. You could have a fast roll AND a physical 100 shield.

>>718816263 (OP)
They fucked up by making armors more of a hindrance then providing solid defense. The tradeoff is you became much slower in Dark Souls 1 for a lot of added protection or at least on paper this was supposed to be the tradeoff. Min maxing fagging and the darkwood grain cartwheel ring need not apply to this point. From had to do balance updates anyways to balance that broken as fuck ring and even then it was still too op. But From thinks poise was not a good mechanic so therefore we cannot have Souls where shields and armor is practical anymore.

If you ask me this is lazy as shit of them to do. They want their games to play a very specific way rather than allowing for yet another play style to be viable. All they would have to do is balance encounters to be able to punish defensive players more in some areas but I guess that is too hard for how they like to do enemy AI which is shit.

>>718816263 (OP)
Rolling was incredibly powerful in Demon's Souls and the first Dark Souls. There's a reason that the #1 advice for those games was to reduce your weight load, to get a better dodge.
The only difference with Dark Souls 3 and onwards is that enemies started having more complex attack patterns, so instead of just being able to dodge once with wide timing, you had to dodge multiple times with slightly tighter timings. This resulted in shitters complaining.

>>718896932
You know what balances armor poise? Durability.

>>718898274
Durability doesn't balance anything in any From game.

>>718898274
Explain anon. I'm guessing you mean the more damaged your armor the less poise you get?

I'm gonna take your shitty thread to celebrate the fact that I finally beat DS1 in under 2 hours

reminder that everyone voicing an opinion itt thinks dark souls is actually hard

>>718899615
I voiced my opinion earlier and I do not think dark souls is particularly hard

>>718816263 (OP)
Skill issue, blocking is still goated

>>718899468
Based. Likewise I just finished dark souls 3 sl1 and it was quite fun. Honestly feels like the game was balanced around that.

>>718837308
The bosses and minibosses are so spastic with such absurd tracking and range that is just more intuitive and simpler to memorize iframe timings than abusing lock-in sheananigans to make them whiff

>>718840983
>Because they are shit, retard. Because there's no a single good level in the entire game
This DS3fag and DS2hater is retarded. His feeble mind can not even begin ti comprehend what actually constitutes "game design"

>>718857021
No they fucking did not

>>718899740
'oopa my beloved

>>718900982
You don't think that the bosses have too much tracking because you're trying to move past them while locked on to them, resulting in just circling them, rather than unlocking and actually moving forward past them.

>>718861529
>all the health he's losing
what is this meant to prove exactly?

>>718862189
It's called a partial parry, and works on all attacks

>>718899740
>doesn't block a single time
?
also
>bm after r1 spam
lol

>>718873930
>love it
they've gaslit themselves into liking them
because of the death cultish mentality that makes you the internet enemy #1 if you do not suck miyazaki's dick

>>718861529
>partial parrying the shin godzilla laser
absolute madman

>>718901227
no, they have insane tracking because they're designed to make the roll timings tighter and ensure a trial and error experience for most players
what you're describing resulta from a metgaming mindset that the devs didn't account for in the first place

>>718816263 (OP)
Elden Ring literally has more in depth Shield mechanics than any other game in the series

>>718902189
Wrong, retard, you're just always locked and surprised when enemies can keep up with your sideways shuffle. If you want to get on an enemy's ass, stop locking on and sprint past them, they wiff, you punish

>>718902358
yeah and most are shit, lets be honest here most shield builds that work on late game or dlc bosses rely on being meme builds spamming consumable shit to buff your shield for a couple of fucking seconds for some hard boss but are otherwise completely useless because they rely on consumables and for some bosses shields are just garbage even then like melania who heals herself even if you block her attacks

>>718902526
>most shield builds that work on late game or dlc bosses rely on being meme builds spamming consumable shit to buff your shield for a couple of fucking seconds
No they fucking don't. Are you confusing using a great shield with those meme "all hit" videos where the player doesn't try to avoid damage at all?

>>718816687
>let's lock BASIC game functions behind some pointless gimmick stat, for no other reason than to pretend we are a deep rpg game
>you think we should actually add cool mechanics like trick weapons, deflect or some new thing? Nah, just shit all over the gameplay by gatekeeping basic gameplay functions behind some pointless stat, players will love that!

People hated when Dark souls 2 did this, and they hated when Starfield did the same shit. Games should add new mechanics and expand your options, Bloodborne added trick weapons and the rally mechanic, Sekiro made the entire game work really well with the deflect mechanic, meanwhile......dark souls 2 made the basic mechanics WORSE, only returning them to their ds1 level after the player paid the adaptation tax.

Bloodborne and Sekiro added new mechanics and were loved because of that, ds2 made basic mechanics worse and was hated because of that. One look at this should be enough to tell you From will never touch adaptability ever again.

>>718902526
No need to use any grease when things like Barricade Shield or Shield Bash exists, you don't even need to use Scholar's Shield.
Of course, to know this it's required to have actually played the game rather than shitposting about it.

>>718902383
I knew how to play unlocked before you could walk, zoomie
The babble you're going on about is irrelevant to the problem I presented, which lies with the design philosophy
But ERfags are mantically handicapped autists, I can't expect them to understand

>>718902619
>BASIC game functions
lol iframe kiddies are pathetic
I'd like to see you play Monster Hunter

>>718903092
There is no problem with the design and you clearly have never played as I've suggested, or you would immediately see how wrong your claims are.

>>718903158
It wasn't like that for all of us. Some of us adapted and some even thought it was cool that we could cut iframes from our roll in our builds to get an edge over people who didn't. Sadly most people did just think it was a stat tax. Also, builds in Souls PvP have never been about decision-making or diversity or viability or any of that shit. People just want to softcap their damage stat, END, VIT, and have a few dozen points left over. That's where the meta has settled in every single game.

>>718903356
I can play unlocked to avoid attacks no issue. It doesn't change the fact it's a metagame strategy that the enemy's movesets aren't designed around

>>718835370
>Level design is awful in Dark Souls 2

Better than Dark Souls 3 linear ass bullshit

>>718903431
It's not a metagame strategy, it's basic fucking game mechanics.

>>718816263 (OP)
I used shield all the way in DS1. It was hard for me to change it in DS3. I can't believe anyone can use shields in that game. It's impossible to tank.

I hate that equip load and stamina were turned into separate stats

>>718904145
Then you obviously haven't played elden ring cause they put equip load back into endurance

>>718904246
It being in Elden Ring doesn't mean I like that wasn't in 2 and 3.