Thread 718938865

DS I bosses are overrated. They are either broken or just forgettable. They are being praised out of pure nostalgia or lore.

Same for all soulsslop.

>DS1
>bosses
way to miss the point

yeah the games did used to have value beyond raw mechanics huh

ehh who the fuck cares what you even think about this old ass game anyway

>>718938865 (OP)
Yeah

>>718938961
Which is why the thread is about bosses, not the other aspects of the game.

No one praises DS1 bosses besides O&S and Artorias. What is this nonexistent strawman you've invented to argue with?

>>718939557
>O&S
Mediocre fight

>>718938961
looks like devs missed the point since they made them in the first place

i like taurus demon
i like capra demon
i like gaping dragon
i like queelag
i like sif
i like the iron golem
they are fun fights

>>718938865 (OP)
Now go back and play DeS and realize how much FS actually improved.

>>718938865 (OP)
Holy fuck I am so happy I'm not black.

>>718939557
Taurus is a great first (real) boss.
Gargoyles, though blatant recycling of maneaters, were improved, and the fight was more fun.
Quelaag is cool, and a fun fight + despite frame rate problems, getting to her felt like a real adventure.
capra is a good boss in a bad location.
sif is a good fight and the rare moment of semi-cohesive story.
Nito much like quelaag, had a great location, adventure there, and a fun fight (despite some bullshit).

>>718941334
>i like taurus demon
Great boss

>i like capra demon
alright boss, but recycled later on and terrible arena and runback

>i like gaping dragon
awesome design, terrible fight

>i like queelag
ok boss

>i like sif
reddit dog

>i like the iron golem
ok boss, extra points for its gimmick

>>718942282
i feel like having at least one fuckhuge enemy you gotta smack for 5 minutes is a good idea
its better than fucking ceaseless discharge

>>718942642
>ceaseless discharge
worst boss in the entire game and possibly worst Fromsoft has ever made

>>718942808
not true for both.
bed of chaos and dragon god

Dark Souls bosses were environmental puzzles more than anything.
Almost all boss arenas had some terrain feature that meant there was more to the combat than only memorising attack patterns. Ornstein and Smough were remembered for being a dual fight but 50% of that fight concept relied on there being pillars to contain the movement of both you and the enemies. Estus was often designed around the idea that you are letting the environment cover your retreat.
This was a natural extension of the game being about exploration, you needed to get a sense of the place you're in, not just the spooky monster in front of you.

Dark Souls 3 just made everything a rollsloppy bossrush and then carried this into Elden Ring.

>>718942282
My defense of Gaping Dragon is that its challenge is more of an Exploration check.
If you didn't get lucky or didn't explore well enough the the Channeler will not only buss the boss but pester you with soul arrows as the fight goes on.
The dragon itself is secondary to that point.

>>718943365
I like the dragon, but its just a slow attack sponge. You just run around and hit it for a few minutes until it dies.

>>718943365

I never really had an issue with Gaping Dragon, in fact it's one of the few "dragon fights" in the series that isn't complete absolute AIDS.

Its main sin is the janky hurtboxes. Conceptually it's fine, and when you get it in the game it's a nice chance of pace from smaller monsters.

>>718943365
>the boss itself is secondary to the boss fight
then it's not a good boss fight...

>>718938865 (OP)
>Dark Souls bosses suck because I've played the game 30 times and know all of their weaknesses
wow

>>718943043
The is why Maliketh is the best designed boss in ER.
>Acrobatic flip lord
But the majority of his moveset is countered by the classic Giant Castration Position
>HP percentage damage
Which means you can just outgrind him to any reasonable extent.
>Pillars around the arena
Which both the player can hide behind and the boss can use in his attacks making them meaningful parts of both the arena and fight.

>>718943658
* you can't just outgrind him

>>718938865 (OP)
DeS and DS1 are the only souls games where I know all bosses. From DS3 I only remember the tree monster.

>>718938865 (OP)
ok tourist

>>718943043
>taurus
>moonlight
>O&S
>capra(?)
>gaping
i think environment mechanics were an accidental minority of fights.

>>718943880
bed of chaos
asylum demon
ceaseless discharge
centipede demon
nito
gwyndolin

they all had some arena designs that made them that. yet its usually bad design

>>718938865 (OP)
>or lore.
And? What, it's not enough?

Fucktrards who cream their pants about boss mechanics, complexity and difficulty of these encounters are one of the most annoying cunts out there. Elden Ring is a disappointment partially because of them.
Go play fighting games or something, you dumbass autists.

>>718943880
I would also put Iron Golem on that list.
Its just that unless you using a heavy weapon yourself to knock him down quickly trying to knock him off the side of the arena is way more dangerous thanks to his grab.
Also despite him trivializing the fight, why wouldn't you summon Tarkus, its Tarkus.

>>718944254
>Elden Ring is a disappointment
being contrarian isn't a substitute for a personality

>>718943880

Gargoyles are on a roof so the slope adds some character to the terrain.
Iron Golem has pits and you can even push him off.
Nito is in a big donut because you need a way of being not cornered by skeletons.
Bed of Chaos (a perfect example of when environmental bosses flip too far the other way and become terrible, though this was also rushed and never really designed at all)
Quelaag is in a mostly empty room because her moves are area denial.
Seath makes area denial and you need to get around him to grab the big crystal

Almost all the fights have some quirk related to the environment which makes them interesting. The DLC bosses are the exception and this is a very early "beginning of the end" in that respect.

>>718938865 (OP)
They are serviceable and fit the world and lore and they still manage to be good roadblocks for first time players. You're sort of missing the point if you think they're the main attraction, the appeal of DS1 is the level design. There are some stinkers but it was cool how bosses were connected to the place where you would find them.
Seems like as the series went forward the bosses became more and more random and you now have to read about lore to even know why the fuck are you fighting that guy in that place when in DeS and DaS you could piece it together from environmental clues.

>>718944254
BASED AND TRUEPILLED

>>718942282
>>i like taurus demon
>Great boss
true
>>i like capra demon
>alright boss, but recycled later on and terrible arena and runback
wrong
>>i like gaping dragon
>awesome design, terrible fight
true but also wrong
>>i like queelag
>ok boss
wrong
>>i like sif
>reddit dog
trvke
>>i like the iron golem
>ok boss, extra points for its gimmick
true

>>718944430
>and this is a very early "beginning of the end" in that respect.
Astorias was the first spastic anime boss

>>718938865 (OP)
They're good bosses because they all make sense, they're all memorable, fighting them is a matter of player skill purely (as opposed to trial and error memory tests and RNG like elden ring) and they leave a good impression instead of a bad one (in most cases).

>>718942282
Disliking runbacks really shows that you don't understand what really makes a good souls game. You should play DeS and come back to this board when you've beaten it.

>>718943658
>The is why Maliketh
Is probably the worst boss in the entirety of the souls series.

>>718944828
4kings were the actual first anime boss, Artorias was just the more famous/iconic one.

One big plus to DS1 bosses is that they feel like a part of the world and add to the environmental character of the game. It's not believable that in Elden Ring dudes (or pairs of dudes) are just waiting in caves for someone to fight them.

Coming across pic rel boss fight was unironically more interesting than 90% of the encounters in the game because it was actually somewhat plausible than an exiled necromancer would just be hiding in a secret room.

>>718938865 (OP)
>first thing a DS3tranny/eldenjeet/sekironigger think about the game is bosses

>>718944357
Contrarian to what? Masses from the broad market this game was designed for? I don't associate with them, so it's hard to contradict anyone I don't care about on any level.

It's too big for its own good, horse combat is annoying, horse traversal is unnecessary (even if required to not waste so much time covering a huge, mostly empty and meaningless map created to be 'the biggest fucking game ever from Souls people').
Story is fucking stupid for the most part, writing is worse than in DS1, despite huge money and names wasted on it.

A lot of atmosphere and tone is sub-par to the Dark Souls games, and the whole project feels cynical and corporate and with a fraction of emotional weight and meaning that was present in DS games, especially DS1 and 2 Sotfs.
They spent a fortune on marketing and sold a shitload of copies to normies. Congratz.


ER looks awesome, is bursting with content, but is a disappointing experience and made a smaller impact upon me than just a fucking intro cinematics of Dark Souls 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKD7QZe3DmM

It should be much smaller (up to ~2-3x of DS3) and hand-crafted and balanced to perfection, with better and less 'in your face' story and darker worldbuilding. Who has time to complete these 1001 map locations??! It's fucking Just Cause 2 of Souls games.

>>718945002
explain how long run backs are a good thing

>>718945002
>You should play DeS and come back to this board when you've beaten it.
NTA but demon's souls made me realize how fucking terrible runbacks were.
Both paths to flamelurker fucking sucked and add nothing to the experience of just trying to beat flamelurker.
Runbacks are fucking terrible unless the boss is dynamically involved with them.

>>718945461
>Runbacks are fucking terrible unless the boss is dynamically involved with them.
exactly. its just wasting your time

>>718945059
I'm 80% sure this is bait, but I would like to know why you think those are bad things for a boss to have?

>>718945431
Failure deserves consequences

DS1 bosses made use of the environment and level design and this is the best way to make bossfights because it actually requires thinking in order to beat them
asylum demon, taurus demon, gaping dragon, iron golem, centipede demon, ceaseless discharge all make use of the level design or their environment to give you multiple ways to defeat them
anyone who disagrees is a retard who thinks flashy animations and dodge rolling all the time is good

>>718945712
dying to the boss, having to restart, and possibly losing your souls is already the punishment.
runbacks are just padding

>>718942995
Bed of Chaos I give a pass just because Izalith in general is wildly unfinished, it REALLY FUCKING SUCKS don't get me wrong but it's also not, you know, done

>>718945431
The purpose of a Souls level is to be a resource drain where you improve every time and push a bit farther. This is also why souls remain where you died after death, your meant to use them as a progress marker that both punishes you for just getting lucky in your progression and an incentive you actually pay attention to what your doing so you can make it back to your souls consistently.
Long runbacks align with the gameplay mentality.

>>718945825
the game was a commercial release, so BoC is technically "done".

>>718945697
It's not. I genuinely believe he's probably one of the worst designed bosses I've ever beaten.
He's visually difficult to follow, constantly on the offense, does a massive amount of damage for every attack, can zone in and out in an instant and has hard hitting AoEs and long range flurry attacks.
A well designed boss takes into account how damaging the attack is based on range and difficulty of avoidance. Elden Ring's main bosses don't do that. They all hit hard regardless of difficulty. A punishing counter or poke should not do more than 60% of your health, that's absurd.
Compare Maliketh to ANY other action or ARPG videogame boss. You are supposed to be able to react to the swing itself, you are not supposed to be expected to guess what attack will come out and when. Half a bosses moves in ER aren't even reactable, let alone do the designers have in mind a method of player avoidance.
It's just the boss designers sucking themselves off without any regard to how a player interacts with the boss.

Your next line will be "upgrade your vigor" because assuming nobody does is your only argument and lets you think you can safely ignore all other points.

>>718945712
>>718945946
having to start over again and losing your currency is the punishment. the game doesn't have to force you to repeat the same things you had already done just to attempt to git gud at the boss again. they might as well put a 15 min timer as punishment, following your logic. the end result would be the same - you are punished for trying to get better at the game

>>718945776
>and possibly losing your souls
Oh piss off. Losing your souls doesn't matter for shit. You should never have that many on you between bosses to where losing them is an issue and if you're grinding them out then the environment is a bigger issue

>>718938865 (OP)
Who cares? They have yet to top DS1's level and world design. As boss quality went up, level design went down. Now you have braindead easy levels because all difficulty is condensed to just the bosses. This is worse game design overall.

The worst part? Nobody cares because 90% of the Souls community are braindead action ADHD tards who just want a boss rush like OP.

>>718946235
>As boss quality went up
Down.

People look more fondly on demon's souls, dark souls 1 and bloodborne bosses than any of the later games.
This is not by accident.

>>718946235
>They have yet to top DS1's level and world design

Sekiro did it better. Bloodborne too.

>>718946389
Neither did, especially not Sekiro, kek. Bloodborne is close though and is the best behind DS1.

I think one of the most depressing things I've discovered about this franchise is how effective simply running past most enemies really is

>>718946486
Sekiro is easily best Fromsoft game

>>718945431
It adds stakes to your gameplay. In Arcade and old school game design dying would send you back to the beginning of the stage and if ran out of lives/continues, to the title screen. It's a carry over from that mentality. The alternative is using save states or have developer placed savestates aka checkpoints/bonfires in front of the boss room.

>>718946235
>DS1's level and world design

Its shit. Most areas are either unfinished or boring. And yes, Anor Londo is feces.

>>718944357
ER is boring as fuck

>>718946540
If you believe that it's definitely not thanks to its terrible level design that gets completely trivialized by stealth and is completely Linear. It's probably thanks to its complete focus on combat and bosses that make it play closer to a character action game rather than a Soulslike.

>>718946594
You know for all the hype DS had as being the HARD series I can't imagine any of it's fans lasting very well in an actual old school X lives Y continues nes game. Contra was hard. A game with check points and infinite retries isn't.

>>718942808
ape puzzle boss in sekiro is pretty rough

>>718946525
On your first playthrough or if you're replaying after a long time you still want to grab all the items so it's not that bad. There are also places where that strategy will get you killed like the Duke's Archives or Blighttown.

>>718946773
Contra was a bullshit quarter-muncher game and everybody runs the Konami Code on the title screen for good reason

>>718946286
Future bosses that would be iconic if they were in DS1:
The Pursuer
Freja
Demon Of Song
Darklurker
Nashandra
Vordt
Abyss Watchers
Deacons
Wolnir
Sulyvahn
Yhorm

>>718946525

What's the problem?
If you do that you lose out on Souls and any possible item drops. You don't get a Balder Swag Sword by running past them.

Also not every hero in every fantasy adventure just mows down every opponent in front of them. Why can't video games work on the same logic?

>>718946062
Anon I already indirectly talked about stats
>HP percentage damage
>Which means you can just outgrind him to any reasonable extent.
And I talked about one of the counters
>Acrobatic flip lord
>But the majority of his moveset is countered by the classic Giant Castration Position
As for the other half if you get the Blasphemous Claw for his close up moves all you have to do is wait for the white flash and you can parry them and for his ranged attacks, again the pillars can be used for cover.

>>718946773
Contra is literally a 15-20 minutes long game you retard. You frequently go longer than that without finding a bonfire in Dark Souls.

>>718946953
Those are all iconic in their respective games though, why is it necessary to put them on DS1 for that?

>>718946968
>What's the problem?

You mean besides the fact that you're not engaging with game? Gee I dunno. This riddle is about as hard as the game itself.

>>718946920
Perhaps but it at least lived up to it's own hype. Dark Souls and it's YOU WILL DIE bullshit is a complete joke.

>>718946953
>The Pursuer
Actually good boss
>Freja
Would have been decent if it didn't also become an exhausting test of stamina with 3 or 4 fucking phases
>Demon Of Song
Ugly forgettable retard.
>Darklurker
Looks awesome, miserable to fight.
>Nashandra
Forgettable.
>Vordt
who?
>Abyss Watchers
Literally Artorius but multiple
>Deacons
Fun, feels like Souls became a Musou for a second.
>Wolnir
Cool boss, feels like a demon's souls boss
>Sulyvahn
Annoying, looks stupid, forgettable.
>Yhorm
The most iconic part of the fight is aping Demon's Souls again.

>>718947094
Saying boss quality went down after DS I is pure fanboyism. Had those bosses been in DS people would be screaming they are masterpieces.

Dark Souls as a whole is overrated. Demon's Souls, Bloodborne and Elden Ring are unironically better.

>>718946379
After DS2 and the upgrade of the engine, they started to make boss combat and their design increasingly more and more floaty, ridiculous and faster to the point of being not just too overwhelming for some fans, but just exhausting and immersion-breaking.

There must be limitations (to boss stages, intensity of their attack, number of hists in single sequences etc) even in a world filled with magic, or there's a risk of these elements becoming nonsense tailored for a vocal minority of retards who don't give a fuck about the game as a whole outside of their 'boss rush' take on it.

DS1 and DS2 combat is more weighty, methodical and grounded all things considered. DS3 is drifting towards 'silly' territory.

>>718947206
>Would have been decent if it didn't also become an exhausting test of stamina with 3 or 4 fucking phases
were you holding a torch?

>>718947285
Soul Tendency immediately takes DeS out of the running

>>718947206
>who?
Crazy angry bulldog thing from DS3. It's like the first boss.

>>718946920
I beat it solo without the Konami code, nigga just git gud, out of all the NES games it's one of the better designed and fair sidescrollers

>>718947285
>Bloodborne and Elden Ring are unironically better.

This is pretty much undisputed that Sekiro, Elden Ring and Bloodborne and superior to DS I. DS II is terrible and DS III is about the same quality as DS I, maybe a bit lower.

>>718947206
>Deacons
>fun
>Wolnir - the giant skeleton that dies in 10 seconds before he does anything
>cool boss

>>718946235
It's kind of an issue with many long running series, Monster Hunter suffered from similar fate despite looking and functioning better than ever.

>>718947382
DS2 is amazing for seeing its DNA all throughout ER

>>718946980
>Anon I already indirectly talked about stats
And all you said was "it's good". I do not value your input. It's limp and thoughtless.
>As for the other half if you get the Blasphemous Claw
Ah yes, having to test out and memorize an entirely new parry mechanic for 1 boss. Surely that's good boss design!

No, being expected to die over and over to a boss is not good boss design. A good player should be able to read and react in the moment and learn in only a handful of tries.

If even the best players get their shit pushed in because they didn't spend enough time memorizing every single counter, punish, variation, delay and gimmick, it's a bad fucking boss. End of story.

Oh but I guess you can just jump R2 him with a pair if ultras and he crumples like wet tissue paper. Nevermind he's a good boss because I beat him teehee.

>>718947285
Dark Souls its the Jack of all Trades for the series, everyone can get something out of it, but other games play into various aspects better.
But unless what you want out of the souls series is that exact blend of elements (which a lot of people want) there are better games for different aspects.

>>718947419
It had great PvP, best in the series even, but come on. It was a mess.

>>718947285
DeS is hard carried by its first area which is amazing in itself.
90% of its bosses are terrible or forgettable, and only about 2 locations are enjoyable or fun.

>>718942282
>sif
>reddit dog
All dogs are now reddit! Animals are reddit! Stfu you insufferable faggot.

>>718946920
Every death on Contra is completely fair, what are you on about?

>>718947382
I do not like Elden Ring. I want to like it but I find the open world tedious and annoying not engaging. I don't like the mini dungeons. Bosses are annoying and chatty and I swear they just don't give a fuck about the same rules Im playing with.

>>718947326
>>718947382
DS2 is very inconsistent. It's a game with many fantastic elements that would make it a great game in isolation, but there are so many minor glaring flaws that claw away at the overall. Like a death by thousand cuts.

>>718947573
enemies spawning right on top of you if you hang around the edges of the screen for any reason is not fair

>>718947627
Stop hanging around the edges, stupid.

>>718947382
Trash taste. DS1 and 2 are far far better than elden shit. DS3 does suck though.

>>718946235
DS1's level design is a bunch of linear paths that reconnect via an elevator. How the fuck you retards gassed yourself up on this is hysterical. DS2 has better ACTUAL levels, even if the way they interconnect is strange.

>>718947503
Every DeS boss is a unique experience rather than a fight, that's laughable you'd call them forgettable when the entire series still calling back to them even with Elden Ring or how often people reminisce over them.

>Beat game
>Have to praise it or people will think I didn't beat it.
>Get called a shitter who's filtered if I say something about it is bad.

>>718947562
>I cried so much when fighting pupper the woofer...

>>718947326
They can keep the frantic pacing of ER but they should get rid of input buffering and allow for some form of animation cancelling. These games would become much more enjoyable but it would also expose Fromsoft for the hacks they are when it comes to combat

>>718947614
The thing is, even with the thousand cuts I think DS2 might still be my favorite. I like it's levels, I like power stancing, I like that it actually gives you enough souls to level shit up even with ADP, Majula is easily the best hub and on the whole it's the one I played the most. 1 is good too but it shows it's limitations and 3 just bored me to death.

>>718947739
Who are you quoting?

>>718947735
This is an anonymous website, who cares what some retard here thinks. Just post your opinion and move on.

>>718947425
The reason the stats not mattering is good is because you cannot reasonably trivialize the boss via grind alone which forces you to actually engage with the mechanics.
As for the Claw I will grant that it does not adequately explain how the mechanic actually works butt he same argument can be levied at bosses like the Fools Idol (Generally considered to be good) and Ceaseless Discharge (Considered to be bad), beyond that the claw attacks are the easiest attacks to predict because there is a big white flash before they happen and again you have no counter to the fact the you can just stand in his crotch and see most of his moves whiff.
I'm saying he is good in part because you don't need to memorize all his moves and can do them on prediction and reaction unless the movement is really the animations themselves are really overwhelming for you.

>>718948051
>The reason the stats not mattering is good is because you cannot reasonably trivialize the boss via grind alone
You can't trivialize the boss at all, it's a pain in the ass no matter how you approach it. A completely miserable experience.
I don't want to talk about this any more with you. Glad you like it. I love Elden Ring for everything except its bosses. I think they're fucking trash.

>>718943043
>Dark Souls 3 just made everything a rollsloppy bossrush
i will never comprehend this statement
Are you forgetting how its first half is filled with the most dogshit boring grey areas that drag on forever? With the stalest most forgettable gimmick bosses in the series?

>>718947717
>Every DeS boss is a unique experience
this doesn't mean they're good.
I love Storm King, but he belonged in a different game.
Adjudicator is a cool design, but a terribly dull fight.
Astraea's "fight", (and really the two characters) like storm king, belonged in a different game.
And then you have places like Upper Latria, where it's one of the coolest concepts, but ironically, one of the most under developed areas where you do more walking than fighting.
DeS has so many great things that are bogged down by the core gameplay.

>>718943043
im replaying through ds3 now (having forgotten pretty much everything about it, including boss attack patterns) and its honestly nowhere near as bad as elden ring, and its a lot better than i remembered. i havent replayed every boss yet (and never bought the dlc so cant speak for that) but champion gundyr, dragonslayer armour, abyss watchers, and pontiff sulyvahn have all been very fun fights with mostly reactable attacks, and those are meant to be the hardest ones in the game (other than nameless king obviously who I havent replayed yet). vordt, iudex gundyr, and dancer are all also very good bosses, even yhorm has cool attack patterns if his shit gimmick was removed.

its still not as good as ds1, because it doesnt do anything as interesting and all the good fights are just guys in armor with big weapons, whereas ds1 has actual cool boss designs and good fights, but its a million times better than the bosses in ds2 and quite a lot better than most of the bosses in elden ring. ds2 was the first one i played so i always had a soft spot for it, but after replaying through them all it honestly is pretty shit.

>>718947402
>Deacons
>fun
Yes, one of the more memorable encounters. It's fine that the boss has left that (fantastic) area, with the sarcophagus just guarded by his deacon guardians. Should every encounter be hard as fuck? Does that make your penis twitch?

The mechanics behind them are fine. If it was repeated X number of times, it would be gimmicky, for that situation alone it's totally OK.
Arena is gorgeous, music great, and backstory of deacons, cathedral and that church is very interesting.


>>Wolnir - the giant skeleton that dies in 10 seconds before he does anything
>cool boss
And what's wrong with that? Not enough fucking exhausting bosses that zip around and hit you 5 times in a row? It's also a super memorable location, with huge lore weight behind it.

Ultimate conqueror Wolnir was holding up only thanks to his sword and stolen bracelets. After shattering them, he completely succumbed to the Abyss- the only thing he feared and pleaded to gods for rescue, when faced with the realisation he was powerless in that realm.

Beating him wasn't a boss fight; it was a gesture- pushing him back towards eternal darkness to be swallowed forever for all evil and death he created.

>>718948270
>but ironically, one of the most under developed areas where you do more walking than fighting.
Because you're always in danger of falling. Constant broken ledges, narrow and high walkways and traps. Environmental hazards moreso than enemies. That's perfectly good level design.
The key is BALANCE. If there were enemies everywhere in Latria on top of the environmental issues the player has to deal with, that's terrible game design. Giving the player a slight break so they can focus on one thing is intelligent design. Frustration isn't fun.

>>718938865 (OP)
I actually like the bosses the most.

>>718948270
See, that's where I cannot agree with you. These weird "fights" that "belong in a different game" is what makes DeS and it's levels so special, it's what makes it more than a mediocre action game with rpg elements and clunky controls. Because every level, including boss fights, are just a unique experience rather than just more of the same.

>>718948332
Dark Souls 3's problem is that consecutive rolling not only feels silly but also looks silly. An armored knight flipping around on the ground is just dumb.
If they swapped the roll animations for Bloodborne dashes/hops then it would feel a lot more natural. A roll is something you'd see in an emergency situation, it shouldn't be the default pattern. Chaining 3-4 rolls in a row to escape a dangerous combo is just silly.

Everything else you said is totally valid.

>>718948207
That's fair, we are not going to convince each other of this, so ill say this for any other anons reading our argument.
If you struggle with him, run up into him and start hacking his nuts off, when he jumps run away and either run back in once his attack is done or get behind a pillar.

And if all else fails you can poison or rot him while kiting him around a pillar but even that is a long process which is prone to failure if he catches up to you.

my issue with ds3 is that the actioney bosses are stale compared to 1 and 2
you really just roll inside the attacks and its so style over substance

Elden Ring has actually tricky boss movesets that can fuck you up, and it gives you so much more freedom to jump over and go under attacks

>>718948449
Huh, first time I am seeing someone who not only defends these two but also someone I agree with completely.

>>718948453
the problem is environmental hazards are notoriously one of the worst aspects of souls because of FS's jank programming.
Imagine in Dark Souls if the great hollow was as expansive as undead burg, and you had an entire major area of that.
DeS greatest strengths were at odds with its gameplay.

>>718938865 (OP)
Sounds like a skill issue.

>>718948738
>Elden Ring has actually tricky boss movesets that can fuck you up,
Such as giving the player a jump button to avoid sweep attacks, then giving all bosses a punish attack to counter when players jump sweep attacks. Making jumping the sweep completely pointless.
And then making the roll more effective than the jumps even for sweep attacks anyway.
God tier game design, honestly. Jumping is useless unless you've got a pair of ultra greatswords to R2 with to stop a boss from countering your jump.
Gotta hand it to them for that!

>>718948884
of from soft, yeah

>>718948854
The great hollow is the only place where you'll slide off what you think is a safe spot to drop because of how the roots look. And a lot of that was patched.

>>718948627
I agree with this, but my experience with the bosses in ds3 has generally been single well timed rolls, with the occasional double roll (which I agree does feel dumb and they should try to avoid this with their design). however the actual levels in ds3 i have been spamming rolls at some points, and it feels shit and retarded - i do think they overdid the difficulty on a lot of the levels.

elden ring on the other hand i feel like you do often spam out 3,4 or even 5 rolls in the boss fights, and its absolutely fucking stupid. i just dont think they had gotten this bad with the fights by ds3.

>>718938865 (OP)
Souls games are famous for the setting and ambience but plebs go
>Bosses muh bosses omg the bosses
And then you end up with a piece of shit like DaS3 that it's either not fun, not ambiental and a bad action game

>>718948738
>you really just roll inside the attacks and its so style over substance

i feel like this applies to so much of elden ring as well, no? with the added benefit that they spam out so many fucking moves that you have no choice but to repeatedly die and memorise until you know the specific timing of when to roll inside the attacks.

and then you make it to the bosses 2nd phase, and you die to their first hit because they hold it for 2 seconds longer than you expect making it literally impossible to read, and you have to do it all over again to learn the timing of one fucking attack, repeat ad infinitum.

i honestly think one of the main problems was that they balanced the game around summons, and summons were usable in every build. if it required a stat investment to use summons they could have still included them in the game for the people who wanted to play like that, while also allowing the game to be fun for people who wanted to just 1v1 the bosses.

>>718949350
Dark souls 3 was fine the problem is enemy placement and some bosses had long combos you had to roll through for far too long.

>>718949537
>i honestly think one of the main problems was that they balanced the game around summons,
summons should have been removed for PVE

>>718948627
>Chaining 3-4 rolls in a row to escape a dangerous combo is just silly.
It doesn't really leave you with a lot of stamina to counter attack either so you basically roll roll roll stab

>>718946773
I frequently do no death Contra runs between playing FromSoft games.

>>718949551
I miss big slow stompy posses. Sick of fighting lawnmowers

The way forward for Souls boss fights is to emphasize positioning and spacing, keep the jumping attacks and ability to crouch under attacks, less harsh tracking on attacks but the bosses shouldn't die if I circle strafe them either
Fights should have gimmicks but the gimmick shouldn't completely trivialize the entire fight once you figure it out (hitting 3 weak spots on the bosses body is pretty boring)

Capra Demon alone is more inspiring than the entirety of Elden Ring's bosses combined.

>>718950956
FROM also need to admit they've exceeded traditional sword & board fantasy, and need to adjust the combat system accordingly. Which is probably the main reason why there's such a disconnect between bosses and the player.

>>718951256
Yes this too, Elden Ring and Nightreign are taking steps in this direction but they need to just go all out. Next game the control scheme needs to be changed MORE.

>>718951067
ER wanted to overshadow DS series in scale, intensity and visual flair, but these weren't reasons for the success of that series.

Less is more. More personal and resonating, and as a result- meaningful and easier to wrap your mind around a certain story, characters and circumstances.
They can make bosses 10x bigger and with crazier weapons, but it means nothing if they, and their backstory, means nothing to players.

Embarrassing amount of skill issue in this thread. The fact is that From mastered making real time RPG bosses fun in Elden Ring. Almost all of the bosses before Bloodborne were only interesting based on spectacle or simple puzzle gimmicks, not gameplay.

>>718952085
how many counter-examples do you require?

>>718952085
Bloodborne is the worst Fromsoft game doesn't mean ER is any good.

>>718938865 (OP)
fag

>>718952085
>dodge rolling through everything is fun

>>718938865 (OP)
can't go a day without some zoomoid having ds1 live rent free in their heads

Gwyn is the best final boss thematically in all Souls. Basically beating up an old man that wants to die, is dying, but just wants to make sure you fight for every inch for the fate of the world.

>>718952962
idk if gwyn is better or worse than killing true allant in demons souls.
They're both really interesting.

>>718953170
That's technically Bed of Chaos but thematically they are similar but mostly different. Allant is genuinely a depressed ex-hero that wanted to destroy everything because he thinks existence is a fucking joke. Gwyn is a STILL a hero that is looking for someone to replace his duty of keeping things lit and in the meantime, he's keeping it lit as best he can. It's not really a twist per se but it's more of like beating up an old guy with barely any of his powers left.

DS1 is in many ways worse than DES.
>Worse artistic style
The DES world is much more interesting than the DS1 world.
>Worse bosses
DES has more memorable bosses, even though they are easier.
>Less immersive
Most enemies wait for the player to enter their agro range, which is fucking lame.
>Music
Des
>Poise
Controversial, but the poise as a player mechanic is broken, but it's even more annoying with bosses that are built like fucking bricks. Is it better than stunlock bosses like in DES? Yes, but it's annoying

Still, DS1 is more enjoyable than Demon's Souls. DES hates the player, and DS1, despite its problems, is smooth sailing. Try dealing with dumbass NPC quests, item limits, inaccessible items, World Tendency, and shit. DES hates you. The only enjoyable thing about the game is that it's mercifully short.

>>718954258
>Most enemies wait for the player to enter their agro range, which is fucking lame.
But this is also a thing in DeS.

>>718954474
In DES, most NPCs have routines. In DS1, they wait for the player to ambush him.

>>718954258
bosses is one thing DS1 objectively improved. DeS was all over the place in boss design and extreme levels of bad-good.
Also DeS has the same immersion-breaking aggro ranges, so not sure what you're on about here.

>>718954258
World Tendency is the worst mechanic From has ever made in their entire ludography and it's importance in DeS influences your playthrough heavily.

>>718954258
DeS has nothing memorable going for it, snoy.

>>718954258
>more memorable bosses
This right here is fucking bait.

>>718954602
>snoy
DeS and BB are definitively played on PC.

>>718954569
They are all memorable. DS1 bosses are mostly boring or have terrible twists.
>Iron Giant
Better in DES despite being more of a gimmicky fight instead.
>Allant
He steals your levels, nuff said.
>BOC
Fake Allant if it were anal sex.
>Gargoyle
In DES it's bullshit but it has better aesthetics and somehow makes more sense. The great thing about DES is how everything makes so much more sense than in DS1. Also better visuals.

>>718954774
How so?
Everyone always recalls their encounters with Fool's Idol, Storm King, Tower Knight, Dragon God, Allant, etc.
All of them being a new experience in of themselves.

>>718954597
WT is bullshit, but not as much bullshit as the item limit. Linear ass RPG with item limit.

>>718954602
Boletaria is impressive, in feeling like a proper dark-fantasy castle with its grandiosity. DeS is really good in general, at making you feel like a small visitor in its massive and indifferent world. The probably is it was sort of front-loaded with small pockets of exceptions at times.

>>718955101
The problem was it was sort of front-loaded*

Elden Ring and Nightreign are the absolute peak of the Souls formula.
Don't bother quoting this post, I already know I'm right.

>>718955257
This, except the entirety of SotE sucks outside of 3 bosses.

>>718955101
The levels in DS2 and DS3, such as No Man's Wharf and Undead Settlement, are just like Parish, but better. The Parish level loop is boring as hell without the master key. NMW and US have better level loops, even though US is more linear. Another thing is enemy design and pacing. Designs in DS1 are repetitive and less creative overall. You only fight doods the entire game. DS2 brings doods with interesting movesets, and DS3 has doods with all kinds of anatomy and shit, some of them aren't even dudes.

>>718955187
>The problem was it was sort of front-loaded*
Because nobody ever complained about dark souls second half

>>718947326
>DS1 and DS2 combat is more weighty, methodical and grounded all things considered.
it's the complete opposite, slow braindead dogshit with unthreatening enemies that have to abuse bad hitboxes to actually hit you

>>718955731
The second half is so bad
>Remember the second half of the Latria dungeon
It's less confusing than the Latria dungeon, but it's still bad
>Izalith
DES lava dungeon, but even more boring. Lava dungeons in From Software games are mostly bullshit. At least in DS2/ER it's short
>Tomb
Good verticality and interesting enemy design. Best endgame area
>New Londo
I don't count it much as an endgame area. Infinite respawning enemies are fucking annoying, but it's short and can be accessed early. It sucks that the main PVP item is hidden in this dungeon.

>>718955798
Can't you do the same in DS3 and ER? I remember seeing videos of all notable bosses of those games being killed without rolling or blocking.

>>718956152
Yes, DS3 and ER have even tighter hitboxes so you can just emote through attacks.

>>718942053
Capra is good BECAUSE of it's location.

>>718956152
You have to get actually good at strafing in ER if you want to do that, but you can also evade most things by simply using spells and attacks that change your position, DS3 is similar but to a lesser degree because enemies are still largely too stupid in there

>>718956486
Capra can be easy if you use poise against him.

>>718956486
the cramped location contradicts the concept of having and managing adds.

Every time I think about replaying ds1 again I remember, 'Oh I did everything that could be done and I appreciated the story and details and pvp and everything to an oversaturated level and maybe I should play something else.' Kinda like a lot of games I played when I was a kid. I have fond memories but I just can't go back to them

>>718956643
Cappy himself isn't the issue as much as it was his dogs. They also go down easy but everything swinging at you in such a cramped spot will catch you till you learn to loop them around the stairs.

>>718957034
Have you done it without 100% block shields, &/ summons?

>>718957034
I feel you anon, I feel you.

>>718952962
>>718953854
Gwyn being still sane when you fight him is an interesting take.
Normally most people attribute his bossfight to him having turned himself into a form of hollow having burned most of his lord's soul and fighting you for the same reason Hollows do.

>>718956819
Taurus Demon and Capra Demon are both mobs that are made to be bosses because of their environment. That's ludokino.

>>718957192
Except Hollowing is only limited to humans. The Gods don't turn hollow. Gwyn is just exceptionally drained from using up basically all of his Lord Soul that he is reverting back to the state of everyone looked like pre-First Flame.

>>718957152
Yup.
>>718957184
Yeah.

>>718957251
Capra was just confusing.
Why weren't they confident with just him in the small area?
Or was the plan always with the dogs in a bigger space but it got scrapped? (Likely why it had stairs that went nowhere)

Replay Dark Souls anon. Do it for me.

>>718951256
Nigga, Elden Ring characters already perform absurd godlike tasks. Nightreign further cranks this to anime levels of absurd.

>>718957637
Plunging attacks was meant to be the noob's way of dealing with bosses in early game.

>>718957659
i'd rather replay 2 just because of izalith

>>718952810
Elden Ring is the game with the least reliance on dodge rolling of any game in the series. Retards like you that cannot formulate a single thought without parroting shit they read online are embarassing.

>>718957659
I'm gonna replay Elden Ring
It's funnier

>>718957787
>>718957898
Don't you want to experience Oolacile again?

.

>>718957745
ds1/3 plunging attacks were pretty satisfying desu

>>718957714
my point. ER player character still feel like dark souls player characters, except with mods.

>>718957192
Like the other Anon said, Hollowing is a concept that only happens for the Undead. It's clearer that Gwyn simply attacks to defend the flame and knows if you got this far, there isn't a reason to try to talk things out. I don't deny the possibility that all this time keeping the fire lit and staring into it surely has eaten away at his mind and very being, as he doesn't even go for lightning miracles during his fight, but also Gwyn also hates undead and humans in the first place, and there's no real reason to trust a random undead murder hobo.

>>718952962
Gwyn fight is absolute feces. Embarrassingly disappointing and unbalanced. Isshin alone is better than all DS bosses combined.

>>718958162
If you didnt get why gwyn being a dissapointment was intentional you kinda missed the point.

>>718958162
I kinda feel like you just ignored everything the anon said

>>718957980
Honestly that's just MonHun at this point.

DS1 stans hypocrisy knows no bounds
Why won't they just admit that they are shit at video games?

>>718958162
Gwyn is an unironic example of "It's supposed to be like that", right down to being able to backstab him

>>718958391
It took me like 30 tries lol

>>718958231
It's mechanically terrible. Lore isn't everything in a game.

>>718958162
i didn't know about the parrying on first playthrough so it was a great fight

>>718958470
It's not. He is either piss easy or hard as fuck. The developers were clearly too lazy to properly design the fight. Instead its him spamming attacks across the room with the only viable strategies being parrying or awkwardly trying to get a pillar between you and him for a heal.

>>718958715
If you feel he's only ever too easy or too hard, you actually got filtered... (I'm not even shitposting or meme'ing here), his design is 100% working as intended

>>718958796
Also, if FS decided to say fuck the lore and Gwyn was theoretically balanced around being normal and 100% power, he would have been an ER-tier boss in Dark Souls.

>It's shit on purpose!
Average DS1 fan

there's a reason they let you backstab him retard

what about light souls

The combat system in these games isn't anything to write home about.
So I would rather have bosses with unique arenas and out of the box thinking
That DS1 has
DS1 bosses didn't become iconic just cause it was the first they were just really memorable setpieces.
But even the best bosses in these games pale in comparison to stuff like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VnjE1mguC8

>>718959586
DS1 doesn't have that

>>718959649
I mean I won't lie and act as if it has the greatest example of that but compared to the other games it absolutely does

>>718959586
>really memorable setpieces.
if you remove nostalgia, you're left with moonlight,o&s and gwyn as actual examples.

whats dark souls 4 going to be about

>>718959778
No not just them, think about Taurus Demon for example. The verticality in that boss is awesome and how he jumps at you. Or the confined space of the Capra Demon.

People get too hung up on the difficulty, I could not give less of a fuck about that because these games are so fucking braindead most of the time anyways that the more gimmick like design of DS1 makes it way more memorable to me. If I want to play a real action game I'll play other series

>>718959848
Epic and difficult boss fights with lots of flashing lights and orchestral music, it's all anyone cares about.

>>718959848
You mean Elden RIng 2?

>>718959895
ppl have been arguing about this for so many years on /v/ it’s insane

>>718938865 (OP)
The only dogshit fight is the bed of chaos

>>718960002
Honestly I don't go in a lot of Souls threads. Its just how I've always thought about these games in all honesty. The further they stray from gimmicky type of boss battles the less interesting they become to me because the skill just isn't that interesting in these games honestly, I play a lot of fighting and character action games where I feel I can actually properly see expressions of that more.

So in these games I'd rather roleplay and do creative stuff with the bosses.

I think what I hated most about Elden Ring was the boss music, 99% of it was terrible and the boss fights were the fucking game.

>>718959895
>think about Taurus Demon
A strong example of a captivating first experience, more than anything else, which is why i said remove nostalgia.
It also reminds me that Dark Souls basically stopped caring about verticality in bosses after that.

>>718960170
>Boss
>Just normal enemy with buffed stats

I fucking hate Elden Ring

>>718960203
Nah but I'm not also considering nostalgia that much, it is still a boss I love cause of that verticality aspect. Is it pretty easy later on? Yes but I honestly don't really mind that, feels like you've mastered the game properly like beating those old Castlevania levels.

Now since you bring up verticality I would love if they evolved boss design like that, imo Sekiro had some decent verticality usage

>DS1 releases and it's a niche title that memes itself into having the reputation of hardest game ever
>/v/ loves it
>Elden Ring releases and it's massively popular
>It also actually has difficult enemies now, /v/ seethes about Margit for literal years
>turns out even complete normalfags that have barely touched a game in their lives can beat it
>/v/ now hates it
It's hilarious how butthurt DS1 fags get over the "git gud" shit they started.

I realized I don’t like videogames. I like nostalgia

>>718960680
dark souls is jarring difficulty you get used to and realize it's actually simple.
elden ring is jarring difficulty that lost the plot and is just artificial for the sake of spectacle rather than substance

>>718957034
DS1 was the game in the series where I got all the achievements and clocked the most hours. But every time I come back, I get stuck. Now I'm trying deathless, but I stopped because I got bored.

>margit, godrick
great intro bosses that demand new players achieve a certain level of gitting gud before progressing
>Starscourge Radahn, Morgott, mohg, maliketh, Godfrey, radagon, messmer, midra, rellana
All S tier fights
>Fortisax, Placidusax, bayle
Among the best dragons we've had in the series. Bayle especially takes what made Midir so good and expands on it
>Rennalla
Best iteration of a pure caster we've gotten. A lot better than Gwyndolin and Aldrich
>Rykard
Best spectacle gimmick fight easily compared to yhorm and storm king

Why do we hate elden ring again?

>>718960912
we hate videogames

>>718957059
I have three strategies: bomb, de-aggro one of the dogs, and poise.

>>718960887
HOLY NOSKILL COPE

>>718960912
>Rennalla- Best iteration of a pure caster we've gotten. A lot better than Gwyndolin and Aldrich
Probably true but it's kind of sad how shit From is at making mage boss fights

>>718938865 (OP)
I just want another Forest level as kino as Darkroot

>>718960680
"get gud" started as a "here are all the things you can do to give yourself the easiest time but its ultimately up to you" twoards people who refused to improve, but became "Skill Issue" around the time Prepare to Die Edition came out.

>>718960887
>elden ring is jarring difficulty that lost the plot and is just artificial for the sake of spectacle rather than substance
lol
you are bad at video games

>>718954258

I'm really fucking bored of people whining about DS1 poise.

DS1 poise is absolutely fucking fine and i'm so mad that From had to then spend multiple games "fixing it" by either removing it entirely or having to do some elaborate hyper armor bullshit. It really underlines the obsession with trying to turn Souls combat into some 3D fighting game logic space, instead of an RPG with fucking builds where your choices change the way you play and feel.
Why, WHY am I literally not allowed to just put on a ton of heavy armor, walk around like a snail and then have attacks just bounce off me. It's a medieval fantasy knight game, why do I have to obey the same rules as a naked sorceror?

The issue in DS1 was actually the ability to wear heavy armor too easily, which stems from absolutely garbage Ring Balance and Endurance being too strong. Fix that, and Poise is less of a problem. The other problem was backstabs being instant-snap shit - that's basically been fixed, so Poise is less of a problam.
Bring back my fucking Poise, it's a single-player video game not fucking EVO.

>>718938865 (OP)
The titanite demon is harder than any of the actual bosses.

>>718961796
not really, you're just under-leveled and get bored of the endurance-check for slowly whittling it down.

>>718960912
Man Bayle is such fucking peak

>>718961702
Pure passive poise was bad because you could just sprint behind someone with a slower than average weapon and get a backstab 100% of the time, DS1 tier snapping or not. It's best in Elden Ring, where passive poise is subtle but useful.

Yeah I agree bro FR FR!!!!

Every boss should be like Artorias and Gael and none of that boring shit in those old janky games.

>>718962252
This, but unironically
I want to be normalfag human against godlike anime entities
The whole fun comes from that

>>718960170
>pass the controller, bro

>>718962454
Anon as a aside what is your opinion of poison cheesing in these games.

>>718961702
It's too cheesy. Although you can break the early game pretty easily with ROSP + Guardian Armor. My real problem is that it's very difficult to stagger bosses, meaning that many weapons are less useful in DES, DS2, DS3, BB, and ER, which isn't a problem.

>>718938865 (OP)
You had to be there