Thread 96220096

Draw Steel has released, will you be playing it?
Do you think we are entering a 4e renaissance?

>>96220096 (OP)
>Draw Steel has released, will you be playing it?
No. God no. But I'm happy for the people who are excited for this sort of thing.
>Do you think we are entering a 4e renaissance?
Dunno. But anything is a step up from 5e, I suppose.

>>96220096 (OP)
Anyone else hate this moder, overdesigned fantasy art? I don't even mean this in an OSR "muh black and white illustrations" way but characters with glowing gear, armour that makes no sense and artwork that seems to just want to pose characters in stupid ways instead of evoking mood.

>>96220096 (OP)
>Draw Steel has released, will you be playing it?
Nope. If I wanna play D&D, I'd rather play D&D. The only selling point it has, for me, is nostalgia for its settings. But I do think it's rad that our hobby is so popular that games I have zero interest in can be successful.

>>96220267
Eh. Popular art styles change. I try to appreciate the good examples of whatever. But as far as this cover is concerned? Look at the green skeletor-lookin motherfucker in the bottom right corner of the first cover in OP. No idea what that is supposed to be but I fuckin like it.

>>96220096 (OP)
>For example, the Fury ability Brutal Slam is Power Roll + Might and has the following outcomes.
>11 or lower: 3 damage; push 1 (I’ll explain push in the next post, where I’ll talk about combat)
>12-16: 8 damage; push 2
>17+: 12 damage; push 4

So is 2d10 4e with degrees of success like PF2e. Same shit aesthetics even more pronounced.

>Do you think we are entering a 4e renaissance?
PF2e is from 2023

>>96220267
>Anyone else hate this moder, overdesigned fantasy art?
Forgot to fully comment this.
I despise OSRfags and their fundamentalism (while I play OSR games, albeit not exclusively).
When I see kitchen sink bullshit like that one, I start to understand them.

>>96220267
I like it. Not too big a fan of the ones in OP, but that's more of a composting issue than the overall style.

I want to write an adventure for him centering on the Castle of Orange Rib.

>>96220096 (OP)
Apparently the game is supposed to have a Chris Claremont era X-men but in D&D vibe, which might be the most gen X idea ever.

>>96221329
If that's the intent, the cover art is perfect.
Not going to like it but the artist conveyed it perfectly and should be praised for that.

Hopefully it's good, but God damn can Matt Coleville and his writers not pick the most garbage titles and names for things.

>>96220096 (OP)
Putting a knock-off beholder on the cover art is just sad.
Are they creatively dead? Is DnD so entwined with their mode of thinking that they cannot separate it from ttrpg?

>>96220096 (OP)
Why the fuck would I? I hate D&D and I don't want to play Fatt Retard's "D&D but better!" pile of bullshit.

>>96221861
They hated how flat their knock-off beholder looked on the cover their 5e supplement Flee Mortals so this is them saying 'we can do better'.

>>96222509
You made me curious enough to look it up. Honestly I like this one better. It has a pulp vibe that makes me think of the Conan comics.

>>96222523
Same for me. I do wonder if it's the same artist - if it's the case, respect for the flexibility.

>>96220096 (OP)
I am sure Colville is a competent and passionate lead designer with a great team behind him; but 4e sucks donkey balls and always has, and it could be the best system in the world and I'd not want to touch it. What stands out about it to me is the price, easily twice as expensive as its competition, guess it's being marketed to the funko pop demographic - more money than sense.

My crystal ball says it's another big budget heartbreaker, and it will have a similar fanatic fanbase as pf2e had, that will peter off into the true hardcore believers and the ones that move on to the next heartbreaker that will finally solve the problems that 5e has, just like the last one, and last one, and last one, and last one before that.

>>96221329
Makes you wonder why they don't make a superhero game.

>>96222557
>Colville
I was confused I thought this was the Critical Role's guy game.
Colville instead always loved 4e unless I am mistaken.

So yeah, it's for 4e players >>96220844

>>96222594
Daggerheart is the CR game.

I really enjoy 4e and I think this game will appeal to anyone who liked it. All 10 of us

>>96222557
Yeah the price point stands out to me. Especially with how affordable Daggerheart is in comparison. But I did some digging and part of the reason for Daggerheart's price point is because they landed a deal with a big publisher, which is huge. MCDM didn't, maybe they didn't want to, this means they cannot go quite as low as that. The alternative is to double down and go high aiming for devoted fans.They actually talked about this doubling down. Their bet is that people enjoy spending money on their hobbies, and that DIY penny pinching grognards are from an era that has passed. Personally I don't think this game is going to be nearly as successful as Daggerheart, so much went right for that game that I'm not seeing with this one. But I'd happily be surprised.

>>96222615
>All 10 of us
Kek I am not a fan AT ALL but I hope you guys get a game that scratches that itch

>>96222701
>Especially with how affordable Daggerheart is in comparison
>>96222615
>Daggerheart is the CR game.

Differences?

>>96220267
i would kill for the return of dark shadows and mystery rather than low IQ flashy pauldroncore.

>>96223236
I think Daggerheart’s intent is ‘D&D as you were already playing it anyway but now the mechanics actually support that style’ and Draw Steel’s intent is ‘D&D but it gets you to your goal of fighting cool monsters combats with cool abilities as fast as possible (if that’s your goal)’.

>>96223437
>but now the mechanics actually support that style’
???

>>96223463
Playacting magical tea party games anon, I’m saying what I think they see in themselves.

I have been playtesting Draw Steel for nearly a year by this point.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BrTEPvCanh-zYX1dbsFbq9odOTpCBmQl0DdjgqTcNBU/edit

I think it is a fairly decent 4e-like game. It plays like a cross between 4e and Tom Abbadon's ICON.

I have the post-release core rulebooks by this point. I think they are okay. The player book's layout is on the mediocre side.

>>96223514

I saw a level 1 party, in a single turn (not round), put down 20 higher-level minions using only ranged, non-AoE attacks. It is similar to 13th Age: minions have HP, are in mobs, and suffer spillover damage. In Draw Steel, though, spillover from AoE damage is limited.

• Tactician’s First Turn: Gain 2 focus, now at 7 focus due to prior Victories. Spend hero token for 2 surges. Disengage 2 squares away from starting position due to Rapid-Fire kit, Mark one memorial ivy green, Hammer and Anvil for 5 focus on ivy green (natural 19, critical hit, gain 1 focus, 16 damage originally, 24 damage with 2 surges spent and 1 focus spent on mark, kill all ivies green), mark transfers to one memorial ivy blue.
• As part of H&A, shadow Two Shots marked ivy blue and ivy red (natural 8, tier 2 result with edge, 6 damage originally, 12 damage on ivies blue with memonek Useful Emotion surge spent and 1 focus spent on mark, kill three ivies blue, 6 damage on ivies red, kill one ivy red), mark transfers to another ivy blue. Ivies blue down to four units and 16/28 squad Stamina, ivies red down to six units and 22/28 squad Stamina.
• As part of H&A, conduit Holy Lashes marked memorial ivy blue (natural 15, tier 3 result, 10 damage originally, pull 5 with hakaan Forceful, gain 2 piety, ivy blue collides with another ivy blue, 3 damage on each, 16 damage total, kill all ivies blue), mark transfers to one ivy red.
• Thanks to critical hit, tactician has another main action. Tactician is currently at 1 focus. Strike Now! shadow.
• As part of SN!, shadow Two Shots two memorial ivies red (natural 17, tier 3 result, 8 damage on each, 16 damage total, increase to 24 damage with Advanced Tactics and 1 focus spent on mark, kill all ivies red), mark transfers to skeleton blue.

I found this very cool. In just one turn, the party stood back-to-back and John Wicked 20 higher-level minions. (Also, this was an extreme-difficulty fight versus a leader-type enemy. The PCs won.)

>>96223514
You post so much game theorycrafting and also Genshin fanart that you’re obligated to tell me what team you clear spiral abyss with.

>>96223487
Oh, I have absolutely no idea, don't follow them I play 3e-ish and BECMI.

>>96222701
>Their bet is that people enjoy spending money on their hobbies, and that DIY penny pinching grognards are from an era that has passed.
Gambling on people wanting to spend money is the exact wrong timing. Penny pinching is what I teach all my new players.

>>96223642
Yeah the timing seems unfortunate to me.

>>96223563
Is 3E or BECMI better?

Colville is a shit GM and if you take advice from him your game is also shit. LOL

What does it add over 4E and it's derivatives that would make it worth the price for someone who's never heard of the author?

>>96224434
Different aim and most of the fans of one doesn't like the other

>>96224590
An actually good 3rd party license for third party creators

>>96224761
That tells me almost nothing.
>>96224766
Oh yeah good point.

>>96220096 (OP)
>Draw Steel has released, will you be playing it?
Yes

>Do you think we are entering a 4e renaissance?
No

>>96220267
No

>>96220096 (OP)
Can you at least tell us what the fuck this book is about?

>>96225402
It's a modernized version of d&d 4th edition centered around heroic fantasy. Uses a 2d10 dice system and grid-based combat.

>>96220096 (OP)
The flavor and fantasy it's selling so far are a big turn off for me. I do like 4e combat a decent amount, not all the time and not every part of it, but I have had fun with it.

But just watching a single Draw Steel combat really turned me off. 1 hour to fight 10 goblin (9 of which were mechanically Draw Steel Minions), all the usual 4e nonsense of player interrupts and triggers that really bow up how long each turn / round takes, a bunch of whacky colorful people and freaks who wield mysterious and bizarre powers, but then use these powers to fight goblins as level 1 fantasy smucks.

A goblin stabs me with his spear (tier3 success, 7 damage + bleeding) so I use Time magic (this is usually the sign of something very powerful) to make him do it again and... he stabs me with a tier 2 success (6 damage + bleeding)
POWERFUL TIME MAGIC! You can see this all in the 1st video they posted of Matt + other devs playing their starter campaign.

I think there are interesting and cool ideas in the mechanics and tiers of success is not a bad idea to put on a 4e power system/combat, the monster designs might be pretty neat, I do like the interesting 4e monster designs, so I'll look at it for some inspiration and stealing stuff, but am not motivated to buy or run the products.

I’m interested in the VTT, it looks well made. Sadly subscription based.

>>96225745

The talent (chronopathy)'s Again triggered action is actually a very good ability, but blowing it on some common goblin's attack is an utter waste. Ideally, you would use it to rectify an ally's tier 1 result on an ability, or to cancel an enemy's critical hit.

Chronopathy's 5-clarity Flashback is, likewise, a strong ability due to how it can double down on an ally's heroic ability.

I really would not underestimate the talent's chronopathy.

>>96224590
>$40
>for a pdf
>one of several you need to actually play
FUCK THAT
that's just fucking scammy

>>96220874
>I despise OSRfags and their fundamentalism
the only thing defending the hobby from faggotry by the way
without osrfaggotry you end up with reddit

>>96223373
based
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ5dPpYzH2s

I would never try this, simply because it is by the bastard Fatt Bowl-fill

Having played and Directed this game all the way up to 10th level, and having seen every class in play (including the playtest summoner), I am confident that the hakaan null is the one ancestry and class combination with the highest optimization ceiling. It has plenty going for it.

21/9 Stamina, Density Ward, and Inertial Shield alone make a null exceptionally durable. Null Speed makes the character mobile, and all the more so as they gain levels and thus Agility.

Gravitic Disruption is apparently 1/creature/turn. With hakaan Forceful, that is a 3-square slide. Dance of Blows targets each adjacent enemy, comes with a slide of its own, and triggers Gravitic Disruption multiple times for multiple collisions.

The Ratcatcher title's Everybody Move! is fantastic on a null (metakinetic) due to tripling the targets of a heavily upgraded Knockback maneuver, which also triggers alongside Inertial Shield.

Reorder at 3rd makes a null, and, to a lesser extent, the rest of their party very difficulty to pin down with debilitating conditions. Also at 3rd, Synapse Field adds a considerable amount of damage when a party is focusing fire on enemies in the null field.

The null really takes off at 4th level, given Psionic Leap, the metakinetic tradition for Inertial Sink, and a 150-project-point Deadweight. This lets a null, as part of their movement, jump up and generate a free melee strike. (I have seen a few people raise an argument that reducing falling damage voids the Deadweight's benefit, but this does not seem to be a common interpretation.) Suffice it to say, this is rather strong.

The 2nd-echelon title Blood Magic's Blood Mage benefit applies to the null field.

>>96226573

3rd-echelon titles are another major expansion to a null's power level. By this point, a null probably qualifies for Armed and Dangerous due to their free strikes. This lets a null pick up a kit. For example, Shining Armor offers +12 Stamina per echelon, +1 stability, and melee damage +2/+2/+2. Dual Wielder and Guisarmier are good alternatives, since medium armor opens up a Grand Scarab for flight.

The Nullfield Resonator Ring, a 3rd-echelon trinket, increases the null field's size by 1. This means more Gravitic Disruptions, if nothing else.

What do you personally think of a hakaan null's optimization ceiling?

>>96226577
Google Translate, what the fuck is this asshole talking about?

>>96220267
I think it's ok, but I hate the "not beholder" monster.

>armour that makes no sense
fuck that, armor that makes no sense is the best.

>>96226577
Edna in all the internet there might be two people who interact with games the same way as you do, and you already found the other guy. You’ve posted this Hakaan pasta like ten times already and no one ever bites.

>>96226681

This is the first thread in which I have posted my breakdown on the null, actually.

>>96226573

Also, the Deadweight is not even limited to once per turn. It can trigger multiple times per turn.

>>96226699
Anyways I’ve seen you talk about the Hakaan a lot, any non Hakaan combinations that are particularly strong then?

>>96226512
even tg prefers reddit from you guys and i dont event hate osr games

>>96226792

Knockback actually cares a decent deal about being a hakaan. It is a weapon ability, so a hakaan with Forceful adds +2 forced movement to it against a size 1M or smaller creature.

Everybody Move! makes Knockback a fair bit better, of course.

That said, my long-time player and GM for Draw Steel points out that by 3rd echelon, it might be better to be a high elf or a time raider:
>I will say that unless you get Planar Voyager (Time Raider Training [Unstoppable Mind]) at e3 (which might preclude taking other good e3 titles such as Armed and Dangerous and Master Crafter depending on how many titles you get in your game), the Null is still heavily impacted by dazed, which becomes uncomfortably common at e3 and e4.

>This is because Reorder is a free triggered action, which dazed prevents you from using.

>Therefore, if starting at e3 or e4, it may simply be better to be a time raider or high elf, rather than a hakaan, so you can take Unstoppable Mind. Hakaan's 1L size doesn't really matter if you have Inertia Sink, and forceful doesn't do all that much when you have dynamic power adding to your stuff at e3.

>I Am the Weapon virtually makes you immune to potency-based daze though, and there's very little dazing on the monster side that isn't potency-based.

I do really wish they managed to square the circle of putting a wizard class in this kind of game. The elementalist doesn’t quite cut it, it’s its own thing.

>>96227221

The elementalist is arguably the weakest class in the game, from what I have seen in combat tests. Not by that much, mind you, but just enough to feel irritating.

>>96226613
>4e adjacent
>avatarfagging
It's just Touhoufag

>>96227329
Arcane magic seems…de-emphasised in this game? Holy magic and psionics almost have a higher profile. This fucks with me a little bit.

>>96222701
The price per page is virtually identical between the two systems, daggerheart is just like less than half as many pages and doesn't even have a separate monster manual.

>>96227593
Magus and Summoner are both victims of Paizo's absolute fear of making something as good as Fighter or Bard so they were both purposefully hamstrung in a variety of extremely annoying ways. Magus' annoyances can be avoided by just grabbing a bow because Paizo's ridiculous and extraordinary longbow-wank compared to every other ranged weapon in the game is enough to avoid magus's terrible action economy and provoking attacks of opportunity in melee literally every single round even when doing your main thing the class was designed for.

The one time they did try and make something as comparably main-character-syndrome as Fighter they gave it a Rare tag and half the community is still convinced it's overpowered (Exemplar) and that was only after half a decade had passed AND a half-edition update/remaster to PF2E.5

>>96227593
Daggerheart is sold as a boxed set for 60 bucks which includes the 366 page rulebook + 279 cards, it's not just pages anon.

>>96226512
You could have a point but the /tg/ OSR community is way too purist, to the point that acquiring informations or opinions is difficult.

Compare, say, with the 3e thread - there is some occasional clash, there is a bias toward a certain ToB-friendly style, but there is a lot of genuine information and little hidden gems.

Hell, I have more constructive discussions with 4rries even if we clash all the time.

>>96227221
Pretty sure Matt's on record saying the Talent is the closest thing to a wizard (high versatility of magical function)

>>96227376
>Touhoufag
I remember this person, talked alot about specific builds in stealth 4e threads.
I appreciated him being constructive but I understood little, it was very niche.

>>96227659
I was talking about the PDFs for both, daggerheart is like $30 for a 368 book and draw steel is like $70 for two books totaling like 800 pages

The physical box is a very different matter as you say but I wouldn't consider cards """"value""""" when the entire point is to get people to buy multiple card packs and future cards especially since every class shares a domain so almost by definition you won't have enough cards for everyone in the party (and this is by design to encourage buying more). It's clever marketing but I wouldn't consider it more value to the consumer, especially compared to an entire second book

>>96224782
>That tells me almost nothing.
It was a very generic question anon. Better at what?
Old School is simple, lethal, has a genuine feel, the sheet counts less, but is limited.
3e is a fantastic tool to build the fantasy world you want but you have to be careful and selective, both concerning power and removing noise. Asking for advice will end up in meeting 2 types of retard; Type 1 will hate it no matter what, and type 2 will assume the game is played in the powa way which is not my experience at all, at least not for the majority of my time.

>>96226512
lol the """""OSR community"""" bends over backwards to fellate absolute garbage like Shadowdark and Mork Borg and Knave. If you want a real gatekeeping grognard community you need to look at actual niche sperg games. Theater kids very quickly realized that there's not much difference between B/X and some Powered By the Apocalypse shit if you have a DM running both with the same attitude. "Mother May I" OSR shit turns into Theater Kid Story Hour very quickly once the answer to "Mother May I" defaults to "Yes, But" or "Yes, And" Improv shit.

>>96227765
>Mork Borg
Different anon
I am amazed by how much that one is praised. It's grifting at an RPG-writing level, is quite impressive.

>>96220844
Pf2e remaster came out in 23 but the degrees of success are from the original release but thanks for the input chatgpt

>>96227784
Retard-kun, just because I forgot that it's so long 2e came out doesn't mean I am using chatgtp.
I stopped caring about PF when their own 4e came out and by then I was playing something else anyway.
It happened before? Great, the 4e renaissance is from 2019 then, thank you for the correction.

>>96227779
The way a lot of these games end up over-praised is by adding in an up-front gimmick that gets people talking about it during a short one-shot during convention play but is awful and unfun for any actual dedicated TTRPG campaign, but because their audience is people who do not play games and are buying them as coffee table books or to post on reddit or other forums about theoretical games they wish they were playing, they dodge the actual criticism.

for Mork Borg it's the absolute lack of depth and the fact the game book is formatted as an RPG-themed artbook rather than reference manual, but in a two hour con showcase game you just get people ooh-ing and aah-ing at the bright yellow and black art and not thinking about how shitty the actual mechanics are. Shadowdark has the same dumb wannabe Rogue-Lite randomized level-ups benefits as Mork Borg with the added gimmick of "DUDE WHAT IF DARKEST DUNGEON TORCHES WERE IN A TTRPG?", except done worse since Darkest Dungeon torches lower based on distance traveled not absolute time, so there's risk:reward to delving deeper and you also need to account for the journey back.

Shadowdark torches lower in real-time regardless of how much distance or time passes in-game. This means with any basic level of system mastery they quickly become a non-issue, and in a four-hour session for an ongoing campaign you will just always budget for four torches minimum with extras in case they're doused or knocked down by a monster or it rains or whatever. The real-time tracking is a gimmick that is quickly solved, but it was designed again for convention play where people aren't keeping strict track of time or a routine schedule and you can "surprise" new players with "oh no! Your torch goes out!"

It also leads to dumb scenarios like a single torch lasting miraculous durations during dungeons or areas where a lot of distance is being covered/lower encounter density and comically short in areas with high density

>>96227819
When all those 2016 election tourists brought their d&d next with them I was so angry. Why are we talking about MCDMs 4 year old system released during the coof? Bush 2 was thanks in part to 3.5s late release. Do you hear how retarded you sound when you can't even name the date correctly while using internet power tools?

>>96227836
Anon, you are being irrationally angry about this.
I let you cook, there are more interesting things to discuss ITT.

>>96228154
Anon it's been an hour I already flushed the toilet.

>>96228163
Eat more fibers and be less bitter pls.

>>96220096 (OP)
>will you be playing it?
Only to placate my DM. The demo he ran for us left me feeling like I just played dnd with the name scratched out.

>>96227822
Yeah, they all sound like gimmicks to impress people that overestimate their taste and intelligence.

>>96220096 (OP)
>heroic
>cinematic
This then appeals to people who think 5e doesn't give you enough powerful abilities and spells?
And if you need a system to make something more "cinematic" you just have a shit DM or you as a player can only think like a robot while playing.

>>96228301
It's all based on people that can find cool melee only if it has bespoke attacks. That's really it.
That's all what cinematic means to these people plus the concept that every attack must also have an effect.
There is also an underlying design flaw in all of this - it assumes every combat is for the kill, so methods to subdue enemies are considered wasteful if not able to deal damage. Which is funny because a 3e or PF1e fighter could fling people into spell effects created by the wizard just fine.

In 3e D&D time, one dealt way more damage with a fighter or barbarian stacking charge feats, than with a cringeworty named Tome of Battle maneuver.
The way you used those feats, changed your AC, PA etc each round conveyed a completely different feel of the combat and of the attacks and defenses.
To the ToBfags defense, that could also be done by ToB characters in combination with maneuvers. Which this what a new ideal 3e needed - a combat system that allowed for a more natural combination of choices on the battlefield.

The 4e D&D designers took all the wrong lessons from this and built a game with padded sumo combat and bloated HP (OSRfags accuse 3e of being bloated but they ignore its lethality - it's literally the edition with more ways to die - it's just scaled by level so save vs die stuff is found later, at level 1 you mostly die of criticals).
To allow melee to still one-shot enemies etc they had to introduce as sort of design patch (albeit they were there day 1) mechanics like Minions which are utterly ridiculous.
All bespoke names tho!

Which also recalls my first paragraph - every combat is for the kill, because the underlying assumption is a very limited in scope gameworld and a very limited in scope PC-NPC interaction options.

>>96228414
The game actually lingers on the point that combats should be objective based and not about going for the kill. A huge part of this game is actually (I assume 4e was also kind of like this I didn't play it I'm an OSRfag) about setting up positions and the preconditions for character abilities, it honestly trumps direct damage in priority because of how conditional and synergistic abilities can get. To this end there's stuff like the player determined turn order so they can better synergize their attacks. It's hyperfixated on player cooperation.

>>96228660
4e designers literally stated as an assumptions that monsters exist for a few rounds of combat. That was a base design assumption.

Which also betrayed that they were shit DMs for 3e (which explains A LOT) since stealthy mobile monsters like, say, a 3e Babau can be used for long-lasting torments unless luck or precise counter-measures are implemented (or enough PC-Monster level difference is present).

>>96227720
I went there a couple of times to look for OSR recs, perfectly useless for that since the only kind of posting in that thread is smarmy "you don't understand OSR and your choice of game is wrong"

>>96228715
It's really grating, even a simple question about an option, an opinion about a potential houserule is answered with indifference and hostility.

>>96228715
There's some genuine old man grognards squatting in that thread, just waiting to die while being as bitter as they can.

They've basically killed any delusions I had about wisdom coming with age or elders being sources of useful knowledge. Now I'm just waiting for them to die too.

Post the PDFs

>>96228301
>And if you need a system to make something more "cinematic" you just have a shit DM or you as a player can only think like a robot while playing.
By cinematic it means explicitly evoking the style of action movies, not just "cool things happen on a screen/in your head"
There's no ammunition tracking because Rambo and John McClane don't count their bullets, breaks between encounters are minutes not hours, you get more powerful as you build up momentum engaging multiple encounters back to back instead of less powerful because it's not about resource attrition, it's emulating a cinematic experience of mowing down minions and then a lieutenant and then a final dramatic showdown with the bad guy where you're both at the height of your power

>>96228790
that sounds pretty fun, ngl

>>96228790
that sounds pretty shit, ngl

>>96220096 (OP)
>a game where you literally draw
Has the art school graduate pandering in ttrpgs finally gone too far?

>>96228700
the game pays lip service to this, saying that monster statblocks are 'a snapshot in time' and that they do not represent all a monster is capable of and they don't dictate what they are allowed to do outside of combat. There's also monster abilities that have purposes outside of combat but yeah the game mostly tells you to figure out how to use monsters out of combat yourself, giving some advice.

>>96228827
For that style of game it is fun and it does it well. If you don't want an action movie game then obviously don't fucking play it, but if you wanna be Arnold Schwarzenegger Conan or fantasy John Wick then it actually does a good job of marrying mechanics to the theme and aesthetic it wants.
It has healing surges like 4e and calls them recoveries, but unlike 4e you also build up Victories from overcoming challenges alongside depleting your total healing in a day, and the more victories you have the more powerful you get and you start a fight with more of your class's resources or can use abilities that normally require buildup right away, so instead of the five minute adventuring day you have people wanting to keep going and press on even when wounded. And it also avoids the 4e issue of feeling like any encounter that didn't expend dailies being "meaningless" since instead of expending encounter powers and getting them back, the way resources work is you build them up as fights go on and victories make you build them up quicker and no fight is useless since it gives a victory for the next one.

If you don't want a combat as sport fantasy action movie game, obviously do not fucking play it, but that's kind of like playing VTM as somebody who hates vampires and social focus. The game is very explicit about being a 4th edition inspired action movie tactics game, if you don't want that then don't play it, if you do it'll likely be a good fit

>>96228872
Thank you, anon.
I frankly find this a bit annoying. If I want that, I just go for a rule-light.
Remaining in the D&D-verse..
1) the very simple stats of an OSR Vampire or Ogre Mage have many abilities and some can be very well used out of combat. I don't have to make up much, and I still can.
2) The long stats of a 3e or PF1e monster have a lot, some say too much, including out of combat. In case especially of PF1e, many monsters also have more than simple melee attacks.

Why should I prefer something else to one of the above (FOR A D&D LIKE GAME OF COURSE).

>>96228940
>the more victories you have the more powerful you get and you start a fight with more of your class's resources
Uhh based. This sounds awesome as fuck. Any other insights on the system for people that didn't play tons of 4e?

>>96228940
>>96229157
>>96228790
Here's some standard operating procedure; stay the fuck away from 4e-like games.
Shut the fuck up, and listen.
Once you go to a near constant HP bloat, immersion-breaking minions, combat-focused monster design, the feel of an artificial presence into the gameworld of super-heroic characters, the lack of actual threats to survival...

And here's the point to remember: the meta-currency and all the meta-gaming interplay is the one thing you'll constantly think about. Not the "action movie combat".

We understand each other? It won't be cinematic.

>>96220096 (OP)
I watched every Matt Colville video and have no clue what makes Draw Steel any good

>>96229237
You know Patsy played RPGs. He has the look of a man with a level 8 Elven Fighter in his back pocket.

>>96229352
>I watched every Matt Colville video
Even the good ones?

>>96228414
>The way you used those feats, changed your AC, PA etc each round conveyed a completely different feel of the combat and of the attacks and defenses.
It really, really did not.

>>96229952
>It really, really did not.
I mean you are exactly one of the people I am talking about in the post.
There is no cure for you guys, hence the thread.
Really, it's not my problem.

>>96229980
GURPS does the same idea competently. You don't even know what you're missing.

>>96230050
The thread is about D&D-like games tho, and so were the comparisons.

>>96220267
Agree... however it does have the occasional diamond in the rough.

What do you think these orcs have in store for our voluptuous wizarette here, anons?

>>96221279
What's the purpose of wearing pants that cover outer thighs but not inner thigh area?

I'm genuinely curious about the lead designer (no, not Matt.. he had almost nothing to do with this, but plastered his name all over it).
Does this fucker have cancer or something?
He's got these fucking black racoon eyes.
His skin is literally a sickly yellow
His face looks stretched over his skull.
Am I going crazy? This guy is sick with cancer or something, right? This can't be normal.

>>96220267
>armour that makes no sense
This is not true, those armors may not be realistic but they make sense.

>>96231965
>Am I going crazy?
Yes.

>>96231925

Double entry...
Accounting. They need someone to keep track of all their plunder and what it's worth to properly lord over the other orcs with how much more loot they have.

>>96231965
>He's got these fucking black racoon eyes.
thats how you know hes a real gamer

>>96222557
>but 4e sucks donkey balls and always has, and it could be the best system in the world and I'd not want to touch it.

Ah, so you're purely a contrarian, because logically this is completely contradictory.

>>96220096 (OP)
Why play this when there's Savage Worlds which does cinematic tactical RPG that lacks variability just like 4e and every power is just flavor-text fluffed anyway?

>>96231928
Are you trying to say "chaps?" They're real pants. And duh: to signal to other guys that you're the one they came to meet from grinder.

No, Draw Steel is shit. Fatt Coville hasn't said a single insightful thing in all of his hundreds of hours of TTRPG advice YouTube videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdvzBmrgihI
His game was already refuted here over a year ago.

>>96232554
>his game was refuted
By what? Your shit ass YouTube shill channel?

>>96231928
Surely for delivering adrenaline injections (the pants are magically piercing-proof and you can't inject through them)

I wrote a long fucking reivew on it but nobody here cares so here's the bullet points
Things that it does well:
-2D10 makes a bell curve which is logical and objectively superior to flat probability curves (anyone who argues otherwise has a similarly flat cortex)
- In addition to the usual skills and feats ("perks" in this game), you can take a "Condition" which is sort of a boon+bane. Examples include having an elemental that lives inside of you and gives you an extra power but will possess your body if you start dying and try to murder your friends.
- A pretty neat list of downtime activities and some random event charts that are cool
- A serviceable crafting system
-Social combat system ("Negotiation") that is more robust than the combat system (you have to weigh/discern someone's motivations and appeal to what works on them without draining their patience with you). Among the better social "conflict" mechanics I've ever seen. No way Matt made it.
-Surprisingly little/no of the "cultural message" we all get with new TTRPG projects. No wheelchairs to be seen, kek.
Things that are going to hit/miss depending on you:
-Lancer/4e style tactical combat. You like it or don't
-If you like combats that last 8 hours where you navel gaze over your list of 137 different abilities, this is the game for you
-The freakshit races are hit or miss
Bad shit
-Matt Coleville world builds like a 12 year old
-The "tier" system of successes based on your roll is counterintuitive (a dice pool roll-and-keep would make so much more sense for them)
- It's very much a "everything you can do is on your character sheet" system. And your character sheet is going to get busy
-I'm not certain it can function without a VTT
-Metacurrencies... each class gets its own metacurrency that behaves slightly differently, then there's surges, victories, heroic tokens, recoveries, malice, etc.
-The art is very "fantasy league of legends"
-Armor just adds health (gay, make it damage reduction you cucks)

>>96220267
To some extent I agree but I think magic items should visibly pulse with power

>>96233178
>Metacurrencies... each class gets its own metacurrency that behaves slightly differently, then there's surges, victories, heroic tokens, recoveries, malice, etc.
I think the victories thing does try something interesting, making the party push forward and build resources instead of resting up. Does it work? No 5 minute adventuring days?

>>96231965
thats just what lack of sleep does to a motherfucker.

>>96232887
Refute a single thing in that video. Or delete your comment.
Those are your only choices.

>>96234451
>Getting your opinions from an unemployed loser on youtube like you're still a 12 year old

Very sad, hopefully you'll mature enough mentally to form your own personal opinions instead of following the whims of some influencer that doesn't even know you exist

>>96234544
It's just a guy shilling his own failing youtube channel all over /tg/. Ignore him.

>>96233178
>A serviceable crafting system
How does it work?
>lancer combat
>lasts 8 hours
Checks out.

>>96223514
If you think it is a "fairly decent 4e-like game," what would you say are any 4e-like games that are better, such as outright great? Or if none, which RPGs in general would you call great? I'm very curious what truly makes the cut for you and want to check it out if I haven't seen it yet.

>>96234770
You pick a project. Every project has a number called a "project goal". Whenever you are on downtime you get to do one 2d20 roll + relevant skill to make progress toward the project goal. Some projects require prerequisites like approval from a noble, or rare tests. Some projects can be aided (the amount of points you need to reach your goal is reduced) by having helpers or instruction manuals and things. Some projects have neat little events that fire during the project.

Projects include imbuing armor and weapons with magic, creating magic items, researching, etc. It also includes really fun shit like fishing (surprisingly robust fishing system), community service, hanging out with family. It's charming. Not sure how it holds up in the long run.

But it's one of the most steal-able parts of the book and fun if only for the research tables.

Picrel is the d10 event table for hanging out with family (you also get more stamina for "completing" the "Spend Time With Loved Ones" event)

You can have more than one project at a time but need to focus on one per downtime ("respites") in this game.

>>96233501
He's got to be diseased. I swear.

>>96233456
I'll say this, for as much as I dislike the game and won't play it... Victories works. By foregoing a respite (long rest, basically) and gambling against having enough stamina for the next fight, you are rewarded with having much stronger abilities (they scale with your victories). When you finally rest, victories turn into XP.

Mechanics-wise, its the best mechanic in the game at reinforcing the desired "gameplay loop". Super abstract (I'd design something like "momentum" for my own RPG to function similarly), but works as intended. The only major problem with victories is that large enough parties will accrue equal victories but unequal stamina usage. So certain characters will run out of stamina quickly and wish to take a respite to fully recover. Might be more feature than bug

>>96234965
Oh fuck, I posted the wrong picrel. Griffith using the behelit is NOT part of the "spend time with loved ones" downtime "craft".

>>96231965
He does look a bit odd, but I think he is just half-handsome and half-Buscemi and so he looks weird.

>>96234553
>>96234544
Not an argument.

>>96234970
>>96234965
Thanks anon. Looks pretty cool and I might steal it for my own homebrew crafting systems.

>>96235406
>Not an argument.
i wouldn't know yours, ive not watched your shit video. feel free to post your argument though on how you 'refuted' the game.

>>96232554
>dogshit AI voiceover video

jesus christ dude, i don't like matt colville much either but this is so low effort and worthless, it's just some coward calling the guy names hiding behind an AI voice. i looked at his channel and it's all the same grifter shit, whining about muh woketurds in the hobby, you must have a room temp IQ to actually watch this slop

>>96234970
I like that Berserk pic tho

>>96233178
>-Lancer/4e style tactical combat. You like it or don't
>-I'm not certain it can function without a VTT
damn, I didn't really follow its development and was hoping it'd be something to play without maps/VTT but I guess I'm out of luck on that front.
PF1e is a featmess and 5e is so barebones.
I think I'll try to run Fabula Ultima after we're done with the Fellowship and Call of Cthulhu games.

>>96227128
/tg/ is mostly reddit so no shit retard

>>96220096 (OP)
Anyone got a pirated pdf yet outside of scribd?

So anyone got a link for the PDFs?

>>96237984
Matt was upfront from the start it would practically require a grid. In fact the game lists movement in squares rather than feet/yards/metres, so it would be challenging to run it TotM I think.

>>96229237
Guy who's played 4e and Lancer here, this guy is fucking stupid

Can characters jump as part of a Charge? The jumping rules say: "Whenever an effect allows you to move (including using the Advance move action), you can automatically long jump a number of squares up to your Might or Agility score (your choice; minimum 1 square) as part of that movement. The height of your jump is automatically 1 square as part of that movement."

Nothing here suggests that jumping as part of a Charge is impossible. However, the 2nd-level fury (berserker)'s Unstoppable Force states at the end: "Additionally, you can jump as part of your charge." Does this mean that everyone else cannot jump as part of a Charge?

Regardless of whether everyone can jump during a Charge, or only a fury (berserker) of 2nd level or above, how does a jump during a Charge actually work? Consider the following scenarios:

• Scenario A: A one-square-wide rift in the earth separates the character from their intended Charge target. The character wants to jump over the rift. However, this would arguably make the Charge no longer a straight line, since the character goes upwards at one point and then downwards from the fall. Is this a legal Charge?

• Scenario B: A character's intended Charge target is flying and hovering two cubes above the ground cubes. The character has no melee distance increasers. The character wants to Charge and jump at the end to gain just a little bit of altitude. Can the character do so and make the melee free strike just before they fall, or do they fall before they get to make the melee free strike?

>>96238315
>>96238296
Isn't he one of the prolific person that strike down all PDFs?

>>96239059
I think in scenario A, since you're still going straight towards the target it would be allowed. for scenario B, I think hitting mid-air is only ever disallowed or has to be explicitly allowed (see the Ceramic Horse's Buck ability) with forced movement, so I think you hit.

>>96239477
>Isn't he one of the prolific person that strike down all PDFs
Id believe it. What an asshole. I hope his daughter gets raped by a whole pack of niggers.

>>96226613
Looong-time shitposter. Midwit but autistic so uses lengthy posts about minutiae to obfuscate his poor understanding of playing ttrpgs.

>>96231965
It's a side-effect of GRIDS medication. I was more annoyed by how poor his communication skills as a DM were. Constant um's and corrections and trouble finding words.

The Draw Steel: Heroes book, p. 272, says:
>“When a Creature Moves …”
>Certain abilities and effects trigger when a creature moves into a particular area. Forced movement triggers these options unless otherwise noted, including an effect stating that a creature must willingly move to trigger it.

Does this mean that all movement is "willing" movement, even forced movement?

P. 270 says:
>Forced movement ignores difficult terrain and never provokes opportunity attacks. When you force move a target into damaging terrain or into terrain that produces an effect, they are affected as if they had moved into it willingly.

Opportunity attacks are exempted, but what about effects such as Every Step... Death!, the extra damage from Edict of Stillness, or Chronokinetic Mastery 4? Does forced movement trigger all of those? It seems a little strange in Edict of Stillness's case, since it calls out forced movement separately, yet still seems to give forced movement the extra damage.

>>96239790

Is it a straight line if the character still jumps up and falls down at some point?

>>96240762
>Poor understanding
Touhoufag understands this shit pretty well, he just pisses people off because he's a living meme at this point. That and some loser named Wizard has been seething at him over a Dresden Files game for like 10 years.

>>96220267
>instead of evoking mood.
It is evoking mood, it's just a mood you/we dislike.

>>96233178
I would read your full review. This is the first I've even heard of this game.

>>96242005
>Touhoufag understands this shit pretty well
[citation needed]
>>96242044
>I would read your full review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdvzBmrgihI

>>96242091
I said read, not watch a low effort AI slop video

>>96239059
>>96241014
Go away, I dont want you fucking up another game I like

>>96221279
Mmmm orange ribs. Pork ribs slathered in orange barbecue sauce. Meat that's tender but still has a bite to it. A nice smokey bark.

>>96242346

I have been playtesting this game nearly a year and sending feedback. Some of it seems to have been incorporated, but not all.

I think it is okay as a 4e-like game, somewhat of a cross between 4e and Tom Abbadon's ICON. There are balance issues, and some character builds are notably stronger than others (the null especially), but not to a balance-shattering degree.

>>96242381
Pros: No need to bring rations to the dinner dungeon
Cons: Everything becomes soiled with sauces and juices

It can work.

>>96238720
Cope 4rrie lmao

>>96242384
>>96234775
I'll ask again: if this game is just ok, what games do you think are outright good, whether 4e-like or not?

>>96220096 (OP)
No
No
/thread

>>96244284

Probably something like Tom Abbadon's ICON 2.0, which has had years of more rigorous playtesting and refinement by this point. Even today, though, it is still a work in progress.

>>96231965
>anon has no clue what sleep deprivation looks like
grim

>>96233178
>-Armor just adds health (gay, make it damage reduction you cucks)
if that's the kind of critique to expect from you then dont quit your day job

>>96239059
this is what valid critique looks like

>>96238720
As someone who's run both 4e and Lancer, your opinion as a player means nothing and we'd all rather you stopped existing.

>>96223514
>Edna unironically posting in the thread
Lol
Lmao

>>96242091
>He keeps posting his slop thinking it will make him relevant

>>96228790
>There's no ammunition tracking because Rambo and John McClane don't count their bullets,
Dirty Harry does, though.

Thread convinced me to grab it thanks

>>96242005
He is acceptable at isolated mechanics but terrible at overall gameplay analysis.
>source, played with him as GM before

I used to follow the 4e crowd in praise but lost a lot of respect after he got caught years and years ago pretending to be his fans and argument supporters while forgetting to disable his avatar.

What does Artifact Bonded (Blade of a Thousand Years) actually do?

The Artifact Bonded complication took a significant downgrade since last December:

>Benefit: Choose an artifact (see Treasures in Chapter 13: Rewards). The first time in an encounter that you are reduced to 0 Stamina against your will, the artifact appears on your person. It disappears at the end of your next turn, when you benefit from one of its properties, or when you have more than 0 Stamina, whichever comes first.

>Drawback: Each time the artifact appears, you lose a Recovery. If you have no Recoveries remaining, you take 1d10 damage instead, which can’t be reduced in any way.

The moment the character benefits from the artifact, it disappears. What does this mean for the Blade of a Thousand Years? Does the character "benefit from one of its properties" (e.g. Suited for Victory, Rally the Righteous, Turn the Tide) right then and there, causing the artifact to disappear? Does the character get sucked into the sword?

>Victory’s Assurance: This weapon always appears on the eve before what will later come to be known as a historic battle. It disappears after 24 hours or when the battle is won, whichever comes first. By taking the blade, the wielder unwittingly enters into a pact with the weapon. If they don’t secure victory against monumental odds or some great foe by the time the sword disappears, they are pulled into the sword, preventing any chance of resurrection, and forever dooming them to lend their strength to the heroes of other ages.

>>96244391
I mostly liked what I played of Lancer (other than poopy balance on some subpar licenses, or some mechanics being narratively jarring to me like Overkill or Caliban's pushing), and I didn't know that Icon was getting a 2.0. I'll keep an eye out, thanks.

>>96246211

ICON 2.0 is receiving considerable overhauls. It is probably not being released in full this year.

>>96245421
Sure thing, Wizard.

>>96220096 (OP)
I watched their first demo video and it literally took them three minutes to resolve an attack with two of the designers present at the table.
It also seems confused in its design in that some attacks have three fixed damage values depending on the tier of success while others just have your roll 1d6+1 or 1d10 damage.

>>96247934

Manually rolled damage comes mostly from conditions, such as bleeding, which deals 1d6 + level damage. Manually rolled damage is rare otherwise.

>>96224590
40 bucks for 1's and 0's?
40 bucks is the cost you should pay for a physical book, and it should be reasonably dense for that money.

What a rip

>>96247235
They should overhaul the entire system into something that isn't the worst parts of lancer combat without the cool mech art and premise.

>>96223547
Despite being a Colville fan I've been pretty skeptical of "Tactical Heroic Cinematic" themeing on DS but seeing it spelled out like this I start to see the appeal.

I wouldn't want to run a full campaign like this but this would be cool for a four-shot or something.

>>96248946

Thank you. This really was the single coolest turn I have ever seen in Draw Steel, and it was right at level 1.

>>96241014
>Certain abilities and effects trigger when a creature moves into a particular area. Forced movement triggers these options unless otherwise noted, including an effect stating that a creature must willingly move to trigger it.
This is just a poorly constructed sentence, let me clear it up for you:
>Certain abilities and effects trigger when a creature moves into a particular area. Forced movement triggers these options unless otherwise noted, [the otherwise noted cases include] an effect stating that a creature must willingly move to trigger it.
The straight line thing. The intent of the character is to move straight towards the enemy. The jump is ancillary to the (forward) direction of the attack.

>>96249611

Yes, your rewording certainly makes plenty of sense. I can absolutely see that being the true intent of the rule, rather than the poorly worded mess we actually have. Thank you very much; I sincerely appreciate this new perspective.

As for straight lines, there is a rule covering this, no?

>Straight Lines
>Talking about a straight line area of effect on an encounter map doesn’t mean the line can only be a straight vertical or horizontal line of contiguous squares. It means each square in the line’s length must move in the same direction without bending back in an opposite direction. To make a line area quickly, pick your line’s origin square, then pick each subsquent square in the line one at a time in a single direction without bending back in an opposite direction.
>Likewise, abilities and effects that require a creature to move in a straight line, such as the Charge main action or forced movement that is a push or a pull, don’t have to take the form of a straight series of squares on the grid. Simply move the creature one square at a time in a single direction without ever bending back in a direction opposite to where they’ve already moved.

If a character jumps and falls, that is "bending back in a direction opposite to where they’ve already moved," right?

>>96249817
I think the straight line rule is meant to make it 2D top down movement straightforward. if there’s squares in columns of A, B,C and D then AAAA is allowed, so is AABB, ABCD or ABBC but no ABAB with the intent of slinking around to hit more enemies or something.

>>96249934

Then what does the 2nd-level fury (berserker)'s Unstoppable Force's final sentence actually do?

>Additionally, you can jump as part of your charge.

>>96245421
>He is acceptable at isolated mechanics but terrible at overall gameplay analysis.
This is 4e design in a nutshell

>>96251139
How?

>>96251159
Great minigame D&D tactics, less support on of how out-of-the-box stuff could work (no, le page 42 is not the answer) or how a campaign is actual conducted.
Not a criticism to the game in the OP tho, reading some of the posts.

>>96251312
Can you give some examples of how Page 42 isn't the answer?

>>96220096 (OP)
>>96220096 (OP)
Yeah, and I've been running a game for a few months now. We're currently on break since we finished the last adventure. Here's some of what I like about it the system,
>Significantly less bummer around the table since there's no missing
>Malice is DELIGHTFUL and maybe my favorite thing from the game as it gives me something to get excited about behind the screen
>Dynamic combat is baked into the system so I spend more time picking fun monster combos and cool maps rather than fighting the system.
>much less tedious back and forth during combat. It's designed in such a way that as the GM I can roll my dice and declare my actions, damage, and effects then move on without needing to ask for peoples AC's.
Combat still takes time about the same time as one in D&D or PF but its way smoother and more fun.

>>96233456
It works. My players are never thinking about resting unless they are at 0 -1 recoveries each. They're always excited to keep up the action so they can use their victories.

>>96239477
Yes. But it's 4chan so like... Good luck with that.

>>96223236
Daggerheart is made specifically for gay theater kiddies. It feels like Dungeon World if it was 5e based instead of PbtA, if that makes sense. There's a free SRD.
Barbarian is Guardian and not angry or primal. Paladin is Seraph. Rogue and Sorcerer shadow magic. Wizards can heal. No cleric, just use Paladin or Wizard. No monk period.

Draw Steel is made specifically for highly-customizable class based skirmish tactics wargamers a la 4e and Lancer, but with a lot of NuSchool design like one roll attacks and fiddly class-specific resource systems based on emulating your archetype and in-depth social combat systems.
Rogue still has shadow magic.
Fighter is warlordy.
Monk is antimagic.
No warlock just a psion.
No wizard or sorcerer proper, just Elementalism a la PF kineticist.
No ranger and the Druid is more lycanthropic than anything.
All minionmancy is its own class, be it skellymans, a swarm of boggles, the kind animals of the forest snow white style, or just bog standard hired goons.

>>96224434
Entirely different play style. If you want rogue-like dungeoncrawler torch counting, you want BECMI. If you want a diablo style hack&slash, 3.5

>>96252782

What guidance can you give for planning a session? What is the typical format?

How much rp vs combat? How many encounters per session with them taking the time they do?

>>96228723
>>96228715
>>96228754
Skill issue.

>>96253404
Hmm honestly I don't think I have it 100% down yet, but I haven't found my session structure changing too much from my experience running D&D and PF. You don't need to worry as much about attritiion which is nice as the game rewards "pressing on" over resting so you can really design adventures that ramp up in tension over time. But because of this I think the game favors multi session adventures that are always draining on the parties recoveries if you want the party to reach that dilemma of "do we press on and stay powerful or do we stop to play it safe and let the bad guys get ahead 24 hours?"

I stick to a pretty basic AB structure where I go from combat to rp with a montage (skill challenge) every 1 - 2 sessions. And that can always change based on player action, sometimes it's mostly one or the other but I try to keep a good rhythm.

Examples from my session notes
-Session 1-
>players socialize on boat (rp)
>Lizardmen and pterodactyls attack (combat and save the crew)
>Stop the fire in the cargo hold and land the ship safely (montage)

-Session 2-
>Explore village of psychedelically poisoned people (rp/exploration)
>Dino's show up to chew on drugged up villagers (combat)
>Find unpoisoned village member (rp)
>Go into well to fight poison frog men in hatchery caves (combat)
>Players used their Downtime activities to unpoison and fix the well and establish relationships with locals (respite/downtime activities)

tips
>Don't be afraid to hit players hard, they die at negative 1/2 their max HP not at 0, so they aren't as delicate as they seem (especially if they have a full support Conduit)
>keep it simple with monsters at the start. Getting used to using malice and running a few different stat blocks and be a lot. It takes a bit to get the fully finesse your monsters.
>Pick cool maps. PC's and monsters have lots of cool mobility and forced movement. The system shines with high ground, hazards, traps, cover, walls, and random junk to interact with.

>>96254539
This is great information, I appreciate it a lot!
I primarily run OSR dungeon crawls so this is very opposite end of my spectrum, which will be nice.
How long are your sessions usually? Do your players get combat fatigue?

>>96254597
Avg sessions for us are 3 hours. Oh yeah it'll be a total change of pace, I hope you have fun! It could be recency bias, but of the games I've played that are about doing cool shit and fighting monsters, this game clears easy.
In terms of combat fatigue I can't fully vouch for my players but it doesn't seem like it. Each class has their own unique off turn triggers that grant the class their heroic resource which helps keep players paying attention off their turn. Back and forth initiative also keeps players a bit more engaged as they need to deliberate and decide who should go next (this started slow but picked up as players learned to see the right opportunities for them to act). Standard combats often take 2.5 rounds, which might not seem like a lot of rounds but EVERY enemy and PC turn somone takes damage, moves, or is moved which I think also keeps you a bit more locked in.
I've got a good nack for realizing when there's no more juice, drama, or challenge in a fight and I'll shut it down.

>>96220096 (OP)
"Tactical Heroic Cinematic Fantasy"

Hey Grok, give me a 4 word RPG summary that most makes me want to vomit and never touch the game.

>>96220267
>Anyone else hate this moder, overdesigned fantasy art?

I'd estimate 80% of male players over the age of 16 prefer the old style. The problem is 90% of D&D players are Redditors who "prefer" the consensus whatever it is. And women prefer safe, neon, CalArts art. They don't have the slightest interest in weapons or armor. A grim or tense atmosphere is explicitly bad for them, and the male Reddit simps tuck their balls and announce they hate it too.

>>96220267
I feel you, but there is this one artst MCDM hires out a lot that always makes these super banger pieces. His name is Gustavo Pelissari and he does great work. Super expressive and vibrant.

>>96220267
>characters with glowing gear, armour that makes no sense
so... D&D?

>>96251312
>>96254597

My personal experience is that Draw Steel can, in theory, do OSR-style dungeon crawls, but that really is not the system's specialty. Instead, Draw Steel specializes more in "structure B" adventures as explained here:
https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94875428/#94875428
>Structure B: The party is walking along a street one morning, when suddenly, demons pop up, attacking civilians. The PCs intervene (combat #1). Dark omens appear across the city and the sky. Thanks to knowledge rolls and some nudging, the party learns that, come midnight, a demon lord will manifest unless a dark ceremony is stopped. The PCs investigate further, but overzealous cultists strike (combat #2). Interrogating the fanatics, the party obtains the location of the ritual, but also learn that it cannot be stopped without sacrificing some sacred relic.

>The PCs track down the relic to the hoard of a shapeshifting dragon. The dragon and their minions are preparing to leave, and refuse to hand over the relic. The party either negotiates a deal (social encounter), or fights (combat #3). Now armed with the relic, the PCs rally a small army (social encounter) and attack the ritual site (combat #4). During the battle, the cult's leaders tear open portals to let in lesser demons, but with skill and a little luck, a PC can wield the relic to immediately close these rifts.

Draw Steel really, really benefits from meticulously crafted set piece combats, rather than filler battles hastily thrown together.

>>96250036
I think I tunnelvisioned on this line of reasoning a bit, the fact that charge doesn't explicitly exclude jumping but Unstoppable Force explicitly allowing could carry implications for other straight line move and attack abilities wouldn't it

>>96251572
For what purpose? 4e is a game that would be broken by horse archers or with a PC duel.
4rries have no understanding of anything that is beyond a very limited game scope.
It's useless.

>>96258615
You go bring those Large horses and archers into a dungeon and see how that works out for you.

>>96258645
Amazing, this is exactly what I meant.
Thanks.

>>96255471
>>Structure B: The party is walking along a street one morning, when suddenly, demons pop up, attacking civilians. The PCs intervene (combat #1). Dark omens appear across the city and the sky. Thanks to knowledge rolls and some nudging, the party learns that, come midnight, a demon lord will manifest unless a dark ceremony is stopped. The PCs investigate further, but overzealous cultists strike (combat #2). Interrogating the fanatics, the party obtains the location of the ritual, but also learn that it cannot be stopped without sacrificing some sacred relic.
Straight outta reddit

>>96258615
>horse archers
>PC duel
Explain.

>>96258685
The duel was discussed ad-nauseam in 4e threads - the interaction between powers and often PC choice would break down because PCs "aren't supposed to fight".
Horse Archers was discussed when 4e came out, just google or look at most power ranges.

>>96258700
That's right, 4e isn't a PvP game.
What, you're going to make the party all rangers and hope you never have to go in a dungeon?

>>96258741
Again, this is exactly what I am talking about. I could do more things with BECMI or PF1/3e, so many others could, therefore 4e is for me and many, MANY others, a neatly inferior game.
All those bespoke but ultimately unimaginative attacks and effects means nothing because they add granularity to a small thing while the overall scope of the game is crippled.
Once again, it looks like that designers of this specific game in the OP worked a bit to compensate that - at least reading the thread.
I do wonder how many will appreciate that.

>>96258760
Cool, I'll be enjoying my 4e and Draw Steel tactical grid fights.

>>96258777
Of course you will anon, it's all you guys can do.

>>96228660
>it honestly trumps direct damage in priority
That's because of the bloat

>>96258700
The arguments kept cycling because it wanted 4E to be a do-anything-poorly toolkit like D&D when it was explicitly a game about dungeon adventures.
You kind counted admitting that 4E had something it wanted to be as some sort of victory, and everyone else laughed at you for being a retard.

>>96259107
Meanwhile if I run OSR or 1e/3e I can run anything from intense political thrillers to campaigns where millions of soldiers fight other millions of soldiers and even really deep investigation of murders... and yes horse archer battles in Mongolia.

Ever heard of domain management?

>>96259245
I'm pretty sure trying to get someone to play 3e's Domain management merits an assault charge.

>>96259107
>when it was explicitly a game about dungeon adventures.
But it's shit at that, too, barring (fucking again) a very limited type of gameplay.

>>96259391
NTA but kingmaker for PF1e was very successful.
You are not bringing counter-arguments, you are just outing yourself as a stupid fuck that cannot play beyond a very limited set of circumstances.
But hey, reddit came to the rescue with your "adventure B" type of game I guess

>>96259245
>Someone on no/tg/aming making up bullshit stories about games that never happened

everyday like clockwork

>>96259245
>>96259510
You aren't winning anything by artificaly manifacturing strawmen, samefag.

This game will have to compete with PF2e, same public.
what offers of different, being PF2e philosophically closer to 4e?

The enemy creation guidelines in Draw Steel: Monsters say: "A monster’s free strike damage is equal to the damage calculated for a tier 1 outcome for an ability."

Is this actually true in most cases, though? As far as I can see, horde/platoon/elite/leader/solo monsters almost always deal more damage with a tier 1 result than with a free strike. Only minions seem to match the guideline of "A monster’s free strike damage is equal to the damage calculated for a tier 1 outcome for an ability."

How is free strike damage actually supposed to be calculated for horde/platoon/elite/leader/solo monsters, then?

>>96259245
you're not doing an intense political thriller in OSR shit any more than you can do intense political thriller while roleplaying a game of Risk; at which point you could do an """"""intense political thriller""""" in 4E or Draw Steel too since you're just doing theater kid circle jerk while not engaging with the actual roleplaying game's mechanics whatsoever

>>96259588
Why do the biggest retards continuously run their mouths?

>>96259827
I am not bothered to fix a misspelled "artificially" anon to repeat something repeated ad nauseam to 4rries.

I ask again - how is this game going to fare against PF1e?

You know, I start to suspect the mentally ill 4rrie that infested this place is actually the game's author, it would be hilarious

>>96259479
No, it's not. It's great at dungeon adventures. You just don't play the games you hold strong opinions about.

>>96259720
You are answering to an intentional strawman.
4e was criticized for its limited gameplay, a 4rrie made that post to create a strawman, exaggerating what non-insane people consider other editions can do (OSR-like with flexibility, SRD-like with a more simulationist* ruleset).

*and now watch and see the spergout

>>96260176
>It's great at dungeon adventures
No, it's great at a very limited sub-type of dungeon adventures.

>>96260190
It's been 17 years, you've never been able to prove that true but one look at any 4E liveplay podcast proves it false. You've lost the narrative here fag.

>>96259827
We can see the xref data

>>96260201
>one look at any 4E liveplay podcast proves it false.
lmao
>It's been 17 years
Of what, of people not giving a shit?

I mean it could change, eventually designers caught up that these are so limited that are the easiest games to design.
hence Paizo going 2e after years of showing their utter incompetence.

>>96226573
>>96226577
>>96227329

To expound, from what I have personally experienced (and from the general sentiment I gather in the playtesting server I frequent), while the null is the one class with the highest optimization ceiling, the elementalist has the lowest optimization ceiling.

The elementalist is still very much capable of achieving encounter-tilting tricks, and can definitely contribute. The class's optimization ceiling is just a bit lower than that of the other classes.

>>96233178
>-Surprisingly little/no of the "cultural message" we all get with new TTRPG projects.
They still call races "ancestries." I wouldn't give them any praise for this.

>>96259487
Kingmaker's rules were utterly awful and it was worse than just winging it, so...

>>96261331
never played it. can you explain why exactly they were awful?

>>96220096 (OP)
Are we at the point where 4e is old and thus good?

>>96262170
The best way to play kingdom management was spamming brothels and houses or spamming graveyards. Economy was the most important stat to have high and those were the most efficient ways to improve it. It was a slow, annoying, fiddly system with retarded results.

>>96259487
>NTA but kingmaker for PF1e was very successful
Not enough to outsell 4e.

>>96262626
lmao again with this myth.
There is a reason it failed, and is not enough books sold.
To save their asses, those goons said it outsold 3e... MAYBE comparing the first release of the core, but it was downhillf from there
>b-but X said
They are saiving their asses
>muh Mearls conspiracy
Mearls is a retard but the damage was already done
>muh suicide
If you need a virtual tabletop to succeed, you already lost.

Truly a broken record.

>>96263299
Occam's Razor.

>>96263299
Wizards literally thought RPGs were a dying hobby during 3E.

>>96262254
4e was fun and thus good anon

>>96263299
>those goons said it outsold 3e... MAYBE comparing the first release of the core, but it was downhillf from there
PF1e didn't outsell 4e in any quarter until it's last 2 years when they released no books at all. This during the time when sales were being tracked.

>>96233178
This reads very similarly to a review of Draw Steel on reddit...
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/s/E9Q3Zfr4qS
>inbf reddit
I just Googled Draw Steel review out of curiosity and this was the top result

>>96258615
To be fair, the popular "real life" system was broken by horse archers before a new edition powercrept them out of the meta.

Do they have an SRD out yet? It's the sort of game I'm interested in seeing if I have a taste for before dropping nearly a bennie on two (admittedly large) PDFs. Since they want to have a healthy third party ecology ostensibly it seems like an SRD and license would appear quick?

Although I will admit that their regular comparisons to Marvel movies when describing their game are very off-putting. It and Daggerheart share in common their desire to be 'heroic, cinematic fantasy', and one could argue Dagger came out more tactical than people expected so there isn't even that difference now.

So by association, hearing that descriptor now evokes imagery of freakshit parties with Joss Whedon interactions and while obviously that tone is something set at the table above all else, knowing that's the headspace the game is designed from makes one skeptical.

>>96263299
>If you need a virtual tabletop to succeed, you already lost.

On this point, it's been a while but I remember pretty vividly that Colville espoused a strong desire for, even active development of, a VTT specifically for Draw Steel. However, it has been many moons since I've heard anything else about that.

Did that die on the vine? Still in the hopper? Or are they just gonna partner with existing VTT spaces more directly than originally intended, I wonder. At the time he made it sound like VTT was really going to be THE thing for DrawSteel.

>>96267463
It's still in development, I believe.

>>96267447
The entire text of the rulebooks is available for use. There are archives of nethys style websites with the entire rules text available already. Word for word from the book.
The openness of their license is crazy good for third party creators.

>>96220096 (OP)
>Might
>Agility
>Reason
>Intuition
>Presence

>MARIP
>not PRIMA
You had one job, you acelips retards.

>>96264540
Nah, that's bullshit.
All those people fired every 6 months.
The misguided, obtuse desperation of Essentials.
5e recalling aesthetically more 3e (while its shittiest parts are from 4e).
The people that say otherwise are trying to save their asses or some colleague's.

>>96263319
Yeah, you should use it - see above

>>96263332
That was BEFORE 3e. Hence the OGL and all the explosion that followed. Then Wotc got mad they couldn't capitalize on it 100% because they are greedy fuck.
I mean they tried to attack it a few years back too.

>>96270895
>That was BEFORE 3e.
No it wasn't, this was just after 3.5.

>>96270933
The OGL started with 3e. The poster I answered to talked about 3e (indirectly).
Rewriting history doesn't make 4e less of a failure, FYI

>>96245543
Yeah, since it disappears no later than the end of your next turn I don't see a way that this doesn't just killed you.

one player at my table is very into it and backed it and everything, he ran a oneshot for us to test it and we all felt somewhat underwhelmed by the system. it seems it didn't change all that much at its core from there but at least there's progression levels and at least something resembling gold, even though I kind of hate its implementation and absolutely hate that it says "you should want something besides gold"
he's going to run it proper at some point in the future and I'm somewhat looking forward to it
I like that he made downtime matter at least but I really think the lack of depth to the wealth mechanic will hurt that
I fuckin hate longass combats though
>>96267447
>freakshit parties with Joss Whedon interactions
and this is a fear of mine because the table I'll be playing it at is largely going to be people (5e players) I haven't met yet. I can already see myself getting fed up with them. the tone of the game just sucks. so does the tone of the writing in the book, I hate how many quirky little personal asides there are. and don't even get me started on the page-and-a-half stories that take up space on all the race entries

>>96220267
Yeah it's soulless gay ass slop. Zero identity.

>>96220096 (OP)
>Do you think we are entering a 4e renaissance?
Why not just play a skirmish game like Frostgrave instead?

Are Malice spends once per turn unless otherwise noted?

Draw Steel: Monsters, p. 6, says:

>Specific types of monsters sometimes have other ways they can spend Malice once per turn, typically on features that affect an entire group of enemies, additional main actions or maneuvers they can take during their turn, or events that affect the encounter environment. Such features appear in a special [Creature] Malice stat block entry that precedes individual stat blocks in a creature’s overall section.

Monsters' Malice blocks almost always start off by saying:

>At the start of any ~’s turn, you can spend Malice to activate one of the following features.

Does this mean that Malice spends are once per turn unless otherwise noted? So, for example, a solo could not just spend 10 malice on two uses of Solo Action, and a war dog could not spend Malice on both Reconstitute and Fire for Effect (maneuver) during the same turn?

>>96267447
>Joss Whedon interactions
The writing style reads the way Colville talks, so if you don't like Whedon's type of dialogue you probably won't care for the rulebook.
Here's a sample of a short story involving a Devil being summoned.
>He stopped cavorting and capering, and his eyes went wide. “Until they … until …”
>He clutched his chest.
>“Uh-oh,” the devil said, genuinely worried.
>“HNNG!” Adelard grunted. Then he collapsed to the ground, curled into
a fetal position, obviously in immense pain.
>“Nono. Nurse!” the devil called out. “Doctor?! Is anyone … you should lie
down. Well, you are lying down. Do some … some deep-breathing exercises. Have a cup of tea! That always …”
>Adelard gasped one last time and uncurled, muscles relaxed. Eyes open
but unseeing.
>“… calms me down,” the devil said quietly.
>Suddenly, the candles were extinguished as one, plunging the room into pitch blackness. The devil’s hellsight meant this was only a minor inconvenience for him. “Um,” he said to the empty room. “Uh-oh.”

>>96244967
Dirty Harry is a GURPS character

>>96220096 (OP)
No, and 99.9% of the community won't either.
The change from the d20 sucks ass and punishes you for not being a minmaxing faggot, class options all feel samey, despite obviously trying to kill as many interesting ideas as possible for the sake of balance the game still has trap options and objectively inferior character archetypes, and it takes ages to run people through it.
Maybe it'll appeal to nugrogs who just wish 4e hadn't died, but there's not much reason to play this over 4e besides "NEW THING GOOD!!!! BUY NEW PRODUCT!!!!"

>>96273808
Wow, I can see how this writing ability gives Fat Colville the confidence to declare Tolkien's writing is totally overrated and boring compared to the action-packed "The Black Company"

>>96222523
>It has a pulp vibe that makes me think of the Conan comics.
That's probably why they hated it.

>>96265164
What are you sperging about?

>>96258741
>It can't handle character v character combat
>It can't handle dungeon crawls
>It can't handle combat past the party scale
>It is specifically made for set-piece finely tuned battles, and therefore can't handle free narratives
I can see why 4e was a commercial failure.

>>96270944
Yes it does. When enough people think 4e was actually wildly successful the market will change to make more games based on 4e. You can't stop it, bitch.

>>96227822
Good post, very well said. I've been in a Shadowdark campaign for a while now, and it's really disappointing.

>>96276116
no, people will play / make 4e games when people actually start engaging with the ideas outside of talking about its success. most of the posts here are meta discussions about whether 4e failed or not, and has nothing to do with DRAW STEEL! and if the game is enjoyable. thats the mark of death and the sign of a 4e community - forever stuck arguing that their game isnt bad

>>96276132
Nope, the market has to change first. Nobody cares about the games themselves (evidenced by 5e), once enough people believe 4e was successful the market will start putting 4e forth and everyone will play 4e styled games because they're the new fad, except being actually good and engaging they'll have staying power.

>>96228790
>There's no ammunition tracking because Rambo and John McClane don't count their bullets
That's retarded though, movie heroes run out of resources all the time, usually leading to some very tense scenes.

>>96265146
People tend to end up with similar critiques, yeah. This your first time hearing the phrase "common complaint"?

>>96276143
The Alien RPG did this better in theory. You don't keep track of ammo during combat, but aftereards you roll to see how much ammo you spent. I say in theory because I never played Alien RPG.
Seth Skorkowsky reviewed it a few years ago.
https://youtu.be/j6PXUl4DyYA?feature=shared

>>96276143
Find me five scenes where Rambo carefully counts how many bullets he has left in his gun. Should be easy for you.

>>96275913
The Black Company has the same style as his book?

>>96220096 (OP)
So, here's a question.
Why are Advantages and Disadvantages something boring like a flat modifier instead of adding an extra d10 and/or taking away etxra d10s having you keep high/keep the lowest results of your rolls?

>>96273808
This cannot be real. There's no way his writing is that bad, right?

Let's turn this shill thread into something halfway decent.
https://files.catbox.moe/0qqzhs.pdf
https://files.catbox.moe/0oh42x.pdf

>>96276237
>>96273808
>>96275913
I don't see the problems with this.

>>96276242
Surprised it doesn't have art.

>>96276259
I don't think it's the latest version. It says 2024.

>>96276237
It wouldn't be bad if it wasn't trying so hard to be a self-aware parody every other sentence.
>>96276243
It's what people call "Millenial writing" despite Colville being a Gen Xer. The characters talk like they're aware of all the cliches and tropes and are trying to subvert them by being silly about it.
A devil going "lie down. Well you are lying down. Try some breathing exercises or have a cup of tea" when a mortal is dying is nonsensical unless this is a Naked Gun comedy. It implies inexperience, stupidity or unfamiliarity with human nature, none of which fit a devil. They supposedly live a long time in a Hell city where you're at the threat of betrayal every second, where dealing with humans in the mortal realm is common.
I hate to phrase it like this, but it feels like someone's short story submission on a subreddit. The author was afraid the readers would tear into it for not being good enough, so he made it a wacky comedy. Now you can't criticise it for being shit because it's meant to be goofy.

>>96276293
>A devil going "lie down. Well you are lying down. Try some breathing exercises or have a cup of tea" when a mortal is dying is nonsensical
Why?
>It implies inexperience, stupidity or unfamiliarity with human nature, none of which fit a devil.
It doesn't imply any of those. At best you could argue that it's uncharacteristic for a "devil" to try and offer a human some kind of help without strings attached, but it's fantasy so why should the stereotypical devil traits be consistent across every single setting ever.

>>96276318
Try reading my post to the end, you'll find the answer there.
>but it's fantasy so why should the stereotypical devil traits be consistent across every single setting ever
Why not just create a new type of being if you're going to make them act nothing like a devil from Hell?
These archetypes exist for a reason, i.e. we attached specific characteristics to them to represent a virtue, a danger, a personality type etc. So if you change the characteristics too much, the point is lost. Here's an example.
Having a dragon be a benevolent patron is in line with its usual archetype if it is still a powerful mega beast that you dare not fuck with. Turning it into a scaly cappybara that just lounges around and is passive would be original, but it would also be a questionable artistic choice because that's not what dragons represent in our culture. At that point why not just make a new magical creature instead of cannibalizing an existing one?

>>96276359
>Why not just create a new type of being
Why should you?
>These archetypes exist for a reason
The reason is just that we've seen the same behaviors and portrayals repeatedly. The meaning of the archetype itself differs from person to person. This also doesn't mean it's wrong to go against said archetype to highlight points of interests and write a more interesting character.
>Turning it into a scaly cappybara that just lounges around and is passive would be original, but it would also be a questionable artistic choice
The only questionable part of this is how it makes it more interesting. A dragon that just lounges around isn't very interesting.
Meanwhile a benevolent patron dragon itself is already a subversion of the archetypal dragon, and more interesting because of the differences and how they clash with our expectations.

>>96220096 (OP)
4E is horrible and should stay dead.

>>96220267
Yes. This "art" is just "make it look like the big stupid battle scene from Endgame".

>>96229237
oh wow, a 3.pf simp saying everything but the game he started with is bad, never seen that before!

>>96242009
Correction: it fails to evoke any mood, objectively.

Does the tactician (mastermind)'s Anticipation cause Out of Position to target two enemies? If so, does it also cause Out of Position to slide two enemies?

>Out of Position
>Even before battle begins, your enemies struggle to keep up with your tactics. At the start of an encounter, you can use a free triggered action to use your Mark ability against one enemy you have line of effect to, even if you are surprised. You can then slide the marked target up to 3 squares, ignoring stability. The target can’t be moved in a way that would harm them (such as over a cliff), leave them dying, or result in them suffering a condition or other negative effect.

>Anticipation
>You have learned to be more preemptive on the battlefield, thinking more steps ahead than your opponents. You can target two creatures with your Mark ability.

>>96276228
>The Black Company has the same style as his book?
I have no idea, I'm referring to a video where he criticized LoTR for having too many adjectives and not enough action. For an example he literally used something like "the candle shone brightly" in Bombadil's house. Colville shook his chins and Just for Men dyed hair in disbelief "Shone brightly? Like... is there another way a candle shines?"

>>96279561
>Colville shook his chins and Just for Men dyed hair in disbelief "Shone brightly? Like... is there another way a candle shines?"
rofl

>>96255471
That picture looks like someone really wanted Wakfu audience but doesn't have the chops to actually do it.

Im interested as a person who likes grid based combat. Genuinely curious about what does Draw Steel offer that that would make it better suited than say PF2e or 4e d&d? Higher power fantasy levels up front?

What is the precise duration of dragon knight flight?

Let us say I am a dragon knight with Wings for 2 points.

>You possess wings powerful enough to take you airborne. While using your wings to fly, you can stay aloft for a number of rounds equal to your Might score (minimum 1 round) before you fall. While using your wings to fly at 3rd level or lower, you have damage weakness 5.

Let us say I have Might +2. It is the first round of combat, and I am the second PC to act. I fly, and end my turn flying.

When do I fall?

• A. Start of third round of combat.
• B. End of third round of combat.
• C. Third round of combat, start of turn.
• D. Third round of combat, end of turn.
• E. Something else.

>>96280134

It is a different interpretation of the 4e formula. The best way to see if it is for you is to give it a try.

I have had some cool moments in Draw Steel, such as this: >>96223547

4e is the best version of dnd hands down, so Draw Steel should be pretty decent at least

>>96282156
>4e is the best version of dnd hands down
you mean the game that nobody plays anymore?

>>96282406
Hyperbole, people still play

>>96282421
like a few groups or major active communities?

>>96220267
world of warcraft ruined western fantasy

>>96279561
If the writer said the candle shines brightly its likely meant to create an image of a cozy setting. If the flame was weak I'd imagine a sinister place like a dungeon.
Colville was missing the forest for the trees.

>>96228723
>>96228715
I love OSR and play it as my main style of play (I have RC, BX & OSRIC) But I absolutely hate /osrg/
It's a complete purity spiral, I'm confident we will get to the point where unless you play B/X, AD&D or LBB RAW you're not osr and are shamed for it. GOODNESS FORBID you like 2e, they will zealously attack and shame you for liking it, im certain BECMI will get the same treatment in time.

>>96282521
>If the writer said the candle shines brightly its likely meant to create an image of a cozy setting. If the flame was weak I'd imagine a sinister place like a dungeon.
>Colville was missing the forest for the trees.

I find it just bizarre. Especially with Tolkien being a master of more formal, semi-biblical prose that contributes a lot to the tone. And it's noteworthy how Tolkien will go into great detail on something like the terrain the Fellowship travels through, and yet is almost completely sparing in describing the monsters like the Balrog, the Barrow Wights, the Watcher in the Water. A couple of sentences for each, and that deliberate obfuscation is what makes them so memorable. Gee, I wonder if Tolkien just couldn't paint a more vivid picture or if a man steeped in folklore understood that the magic disappears the more you discuss it.

Meanwhile a midwit like Fat says he likes to have very detailed descriptions of his fantastical creatures. The reason this sticks in my head so much is I'd never heard of Black Company and actually read 100 pages based on him calling it is favorite fantasy series. I couldn't believe how try-hard and ham-fisted it was.

>>96282694
Stephen King once wrote a good example. I can't remember the exact words but it went like this
>imagine a table in an old room and on that table is a bird cage with a canary in it
>unless it's important to the plot or mood, I don't need to tell you what the cage is like. Bell-shaped, boxy, golden, steel.
IIRC the point was that the more descriptive detail you add to an object or character the more the magic goes away. It stops being a story and starts being a list.

>>96231925
>What do you think these orcs have in store for our voluptuous wizarette here, anons?
Clearly they are gentlemanly orcs and would never do anything untoward with their prisoner other than asking for a mild ransom.

The minute you imply otherwise I will hold up my X card and imply you are a rapist on reddit so tread lightly, DM.

>>96282719
it goes both ways tho, like the candle example here >>96282521
You can and should add detail for mood, but you have to be clear and do it regularly enough. Those details help the players imagine something different from their default ideas, and that makes that scenario/event/character stand out from their own ideas. But I recall when I started, a few months into a campaign where every player was new, the DM described the rain and since it was the first time he had described any weather of any kind one of the players spent minutes trying to analysis why it was raining. Because it had to be important since we never had any descriptions of that type. And since then we never had weather again, it's always sunny in Faerun.

>>96220267
agreed
ironically, I think the fact that AI is so much better at this overproduced, overpolished, lowest common denominator shit means we'll see humans return to a more subtle, understated, personal style. I think. I hope. who knows

How do potencies and EoT and (save ends) durations on objects work?

Sometimes, it is imperative to break an object ASAP. This is the crux of the Destroy the Thing! objective, and this is demonstrated by an early encounter in The Delian Tomb.

The conduit heroic ability Corruption's Curse can help with this. It targets "one creature or object." These are the tier outcomes:

>≤11: 3 + I corruption damage; M < weak, damage weakness 5 (save ends)
>12–16: 6 + I corruption damage; M < average, damage weakness 5 (save ends)
>17+: 9 + I corruption damage; M < strong, damage weakness 5 (save ends)

How do potencies work, though, if objects have no characteristics? How do EoT and (save ends) durations work if objects have no turns to take?

Does Corruption's Curse simply run into the general rule about objects being unaffected by non-damage effects?

>When an ability can target creatures and objects, the ability can damage objects. However, unless otherwise noted (as with the talent’s Minor Telekinesis ability) or if the Director allows it, objects are immune to an ability’s other effects. If an ability forces an object to make a test, the object automatically gets a tier 1 result on the test.

>>96220267
Imagine warriors wearing gaudy clothing that makes no sense in battle!

>>96220096 (OP)
I don't like not being able to miss attacks.

>>96228414
>>96228700
4e is a continuation of BECMI, not AD&D-3e.

>>96276359
I think that's a bad example.
Dragon cappybaras is a take. Giant armored chill herbivores that might destroy a town on their slow way to a lake as much as lay down and let some adventurers try to hurt it uselessly. It's something, it brings new things to do in that setting, implications, lore. It might be dumb, but it could be going for something.
A demon being a chill dude just because is weak. It's a subversion without any individuality. It's something that Buffy would have as a side character to do some gags now and then. Focusing on it is actually bellow things that Whedon has produced (although most of the good writing in Buffy comes from having a dozen writers punching up his ideas)

Is vertical forced movement into the ground legal, or not?

Draw Steel: Heroes, p. 271:
>If a forced movement effect has the word “vertical” in front of it, then the forced movement can move a target up or down in addition to horizontally. For example, if a forced movement effect says “vertical push 5,” then a creature targeted by the effect can be pushed up to 5 squares in any direction, as long as the forced movement is a straight line.

>If a creature who can’t fly is left in midair at the end of a vertical forced move, they fall. Forced movement made against a creature who is flying is always a vertical forced move, whether or not the effect specifies it.

>Though you can’t freely push, pull, or slide a target up and down unless that forced movement specifies “vertical,” you can move them along a physical slope such as a hill or staircase. For a target to be force moved along a slope, each square of the slope can be no more than 1 square higher or lower than the previous square.

Same book, glossary:
>Vertical: When any form of forced moved is noted as vertical, the creature performing the forced movement can move the target up or down (though not into the ground) in addition to horizontally. p. 271

>>96286751
I'm not quite sure what the contradiction is you think you're seeing, but to me it seems clear: you can push a character *to* or *along* the ground, but not *into* the ground.

>>96286864

The glossary stipulates that "not into the ground" is illegal, but p. 271 has no such rule. That is it, mostly.

>>96286960
I see. I would go with the glossary, then. I think the intent is to forbid driving a creature into the earth like a wooden stake. If there were already a gap in the ground, such as a pit, then I don't think it would be forbidden.

>>96284688
>BECMI
not even at all, its a completely different beast. stop this insane meme

>>96286999

Page 272 says, though:
>Slamming Into Objects
>When a creature force moves a target into a stationary object that is the target’s size or larger and the object doesn’t break (see below), the movement ends and the target takes 2 damage plus 1 damage for each square remaining in their forced movement.
>If you force move a creature downward into an object that doesn’t break (including the ground), they also take falling damage as if they had fallen the distance force moved and their Agility score was 0 (see Falling above).

Page 272 specifically permits slamming "into [...] the ground," whereas the glossary forbids it.

>>96239059
>Can characters jump as part of a Charge? The jumping rules say: "Whenever an effect allows you to move (including using the Advance move action), you can automatically long jump a number of squares up to your Might or Agility score (your choice; minimum 1 square) as part of that movement. The height of your jump is automatically 1 square as part of that movement."
>
>Nothing here suggests that jumping as part of a Charge is impossible. However, the 2nd-level fury (berserker)'s Unstoppable Force states at the end: "Additionally, you can jump as part of your charge." Does this mean that everyone else cannot jump as part of a Charge?
Either:
- Editing error, where earlier it was intended that you couldn't jump as part of a charge, then they changed it, but it wasn't fixed in the Fury's sheet; or
- You can't jump as part of a Charge normally.

The only way to tell the difference is to ask the devs themselves. Hopefully they would edit/clarify in the text.

>>96287624
Hm. Perplexing. I don't think anyone but the author can answer which is the intended rule and which the error, but it makes sense to me that slamming a creature into the ground would do extra damage just as slamming it into any other obstacle, so I would go with the rules text on p272.

>>96276293
>A devil going "lie down. Well you are lying down. Try some breathing exercises or have a cup of tea" when a mortal is dying is nonsensical unless this is a Naked Gun comedy. It implies inexperience, stupidity or unfamiliarity with human nature, none of which fit a devil.
The intent is obviously that the character is panicking, listing off things he can think of that might help, even though none of them will, and has no better ideas. It's a portrayal of panicking that's quite Whedonesque, compared to, say, "Fuck, fuck, don't die you fuck, fuck," or just staring wide-eyed, yes, but it's fairly straightforward in what's being portrayed.

>>96276318
>It doesn't imply any of those. At best you could argue that it's uncharacteristic for a "devil" to try and offer a human some kind of help without strings attached, but it's fantasy so why should the stereotypical devil traits be consistent across every single setting ever.
To be clear, since anon has clipped a lot to fit in the character limit, devils in Draw Steel's setting are summoned to the mortal realm to make deals with mortals, but they can wind up stuck in the mortal realm if, for example, the summoner dies before making the deal. That's what's happening in that story: the devil is panicking because he doesn't want to get stuck in the mortal realm because the person who summoned him can't unsummon him.

>core book player options make references to content in splatbooks that aren't even announced yet
unreal

>>96287228
That totally explains why every time you search up BECMI and 4e people that rate the former highly also praise the latter, or how 4e is a natural evolution letting you have all the army fighting in one system.

>>96284660
That's not the same thing you intellectually dishonest fucktard

>>96284688
>4e is a continuation of BECMI
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA
>>96291156
There is some insane redditor that tries to push this (you can google) but it's insanity. 4e is an edition without the 10 foot pole, it really tells you everything about it.
4e has no lethatilty and a different scope. You can like or dislike ho 4e did things but compare it to BECMI is absolute, complete insanity, intellectual dishonesty, and ignorance of the matter.

>>96291156
>people that rate the former highly also praise the latter
For one, I am. 3e and BECMI enthusiast. For different reasons, tho, I would never say one is connected to the other besides the obvious.
Also I can "translate" one into the other even if much would be lost. Say 3e and BECMI both have level drain and SoD.
4e was designed SPECIFICALLY to kill of of that. I hate it, but I can completely understand how and why people wanted something different.
I can understand less how it was called D&D or how now there is this push to sell 4e as a continuation of older D&D editions. In the best case scenario is disingenuous.